[News] US Capitol Siege 6 January 2021
- Thread starter jwhouk
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figmentPez
Staff member
Rumor says that Truth Social is banning people who post updates about the Jan 6th Commission hearings.
His birth certificate!
figmentPez
Staff member
I literally cannot think of any democrat candidate who could/would win against Trump.
Sadly, I agree. There is a serious lack of charisma and/or broad appeal in the Democratic Party right now. The only people with charisma have policy positions that scare too many voters away, and the people with more broad appeal don’t really know how to win people over.
There’s still time for someone to emerge, but it’s highly doubtful.
If I understand correctly, I think Biden said he was only doing one term and wouldn't seek re-election. I think I heard they were grooming Kamala Harris to take his place for the next election.
And...while don't hate Harris, I don't see her faring well. Maybe faring better than Hilary, but not enough to win.
And...while don't hate Harris, I don't see her faring well. Maybe faring better than Hilary, but not enough to win.
You understood that correctly, and it WAS true. Then, after he was elected, he refused to confirm he wouldn’t run for re-election and has hinted repeatedly that he will run again.
And you are correct that Harris has a snowball’s chance in Hell. She is disliked by the left and the right. The center doesn’t especially care for her. And she has numerous screwups since taking office. There’s also the persistent rumor that she is an asshole to work for, based on numerous staff members resigning over the last 2 years.
I despise her because she has no qualms about throwing innocent people under the bus to further her own power goals.
AOC? She'll be 35 in 2024 which is the minimum age for being President.
Democrat establishment will fight like rabid wolverines in order to stop that. And I have no doubt that Pelosi and her ilk would gladly do everything in their power to insure a Trump win in an AOC/Trump fight.
Okay, hearing leftist paranoia about “the Democratic establishment” going after her is fun and all.
But seriously, AOC cannot win a general election. At all. About 45% of the country hates her by reputation alone. Another 10%-15% will reject her actual policies for being too far left. The country as a whole is not supportive enough of the Progressive platform for AOC to actually win. It would be a Trump (or DeSantis) landslide.
And that’s not counting the racism and misogyny that would need to be overcome for AOC to win a general election.
But seriously, AOC cannot win a general election. At all. About 45% of the country hates her by reputation alone. Another 10%-15% will reject her actual policies for being too far left. The country as a whole is not supportive enough of the Progressive platform for AOC to actually win. It would be a Trump (or DeSantis) landslide.
And that’s not counting the racism and misogyny that would need to be overcome for AOC to win a general election.
Totally valid, sure. I didn’t say the left doesn’t have good reason to dislike Harris. I’m just pointing out that they do.
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Again, no argument there. Should people support progressive policies more? Probably. But they don’t.
What polls are you basing that on?
Maybe, maybe not. Trump voters will turn out to vote for Trump anyway. And a lot of Dem voters will stay away if AOC is the nomination, you're right there. But I think a lot of people that don't normally vote because they don't see the difference between the parties will turn out for AOC.
Will these extra voter be greater than the number of people who will now stay home? Maybe, maybe not. But if anyone else the Dems put forward will lose to Trump anyway, why not roll the dice and gamble on someone who will probably lose but might just pull it off?
Because 100% of the establishment Dems in charge of making those decisions want to maintain the status quo, not make meaningful changes to it. Helping the poors has to be done at the expense of the rich and powerful, and I don't think it's any secret which side of that line the party's leadership is on.
Dems might want to reevaluate their strategy if a good portion of their base won’t come out for any candidate left of center. Seems like they’ve selected a bad base for a party claiming to be on the left.
I'm from the UK, I've never considered them to be left of centre. Centre-right at best.
Yeah realizing how far right the democrats are has been one of the biggest disappointments of my leftward movement.
Pew Research says only 12% of Democrats are Progressives, and they tend to be White (68% are non-Hispanic White) and highly educated (i.e. not 'the poors'). 40% of Black Democrats are Democratic Mainstay (which is the most diverse group and tends to identify as moderate), but only 6% of Black Democrats are Progressive (7% for Hispanic Democrats, 10% for Asian Democrats). Democratic Mainstay also tends to have the lowest education levels (i.e. 'the poors').
So, why the low support for Progressives by other demographics? (In contrast,15% of White Democrats are Progressive.) Could Progressives have a White Privilege/White Savior problem? (See also: Feminism) Did anyone in the Progressive camp ask PoC (or 'the poors', or marginalized people in general) what they think about Progressive policies, or is it yet more "We're white and educated, so we know what's best for you!" (see also: Feminism).
Maybe reflect on that when blaming 'establishment' Democrats (the Democratic Mainstays & Establishment Liberals, so 49% of White Dems, 47% of Hispanic Dems, 62% of Black Dems, 51% of Asian Dems) for the failures of Progressives and Progressive policy. Because it looks like the 'establishment' is not as White and wealthy as you think they are, and Progressives are not as diverse as you think they are.
So, why the low support for Progressives by other demographics? (In contrast,15% of White Democrats are Progressive.) Could Progressives have a White Privilege/White Savior problem? (See also: Feminism) Did anyone in the Progressive camp ask PoC (or 'the poors', or marginalized people in general) what they think about Progressive policies, or is it yet more "We're white and educated, so we know what's best for you!" (see also: Feminism).
Maybe reflect on that when blaming 'establishment' Democrats (the Democratic Mainstays & Establishment Liberals, so 49% of White Dems, 47% of Hispanic Dems, 62% of Black Dems, 51% of Asian Dems) for the failures of Progressives and Progressive policy. Because it looks like the 'establishment' is not as White and wealthy as you think they are, and Progressives are not as diverse as you think they are.
Yep. I've said it before. If Democrats ran in any other country, they would likely be considered right-leaning more than left. Biden would probably make for a good Conservative leader here in Canada. (Whereas, as I've said before, AOC, Sanders, and Warren would probably fit well with the NDP or Green)
Well you’re lying about what makes up “establishment” Democrats and pretending that it includes the democratic base. Don’t know what anybody on the left has said where you could honestly put poor blacks as a synonym for establishment Democrats.
Since you hate on Moderates (the "bad base") so much, I assumed that's who you mean by "establishment" since we're talking about appealing to voters. That's my mistake, but I specifically pointed out that I was referring to Democratic Mainstays and Establishment Liberals from the survey, who make up the majority of Democrats (so, the base that the Democrats need to appeal to). The data still says that there is low support for Progressives, especially with PoC (which should be a red flag), so it doesn't make sense for the Democrats to throw all their support behind Progressive candidates until they have broader appeal.
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Depends on what you mean by sense. I don’t think it makes any sense for Democrats to continue their death spiral moving ever more to the right in an attempt to placate voters who are beyond reasoning with at this point. I don’t think it makes any sense for Democrats to fail at accomplishing anything when they control both houses of Congress and the presidency and just accept huge defeats like the upcoming overturning of Roe V Wade with a shrug and a “we’ll vote harder next time.” Nor do I think that it makes any sense for establishment Democrats to fight like demons against anybody left of center while propping up hard right Democrats like Cuellar.
But I suppose you look at the Biden administration accomplishments of nothing and nod your head cause this shitshow was clearly what the voters wanted when we voted in 2020.
The only way progressives will actually gain any power is if the US. adopts a parliamentary style system and gets rid of first past the post. So, not any time soon.
Democrats are not moving Right. Every article/study I've found says the opposite. Democrats have been moving Left (or returning Left).
A sample:
Why Democrats Have Shifted Left Over the Last Thirty Years
Democrats Aren't Moving Left. They're Returning to Their Roots
If Democrats want to win and protect our rights like Roe, they need to convince Republicans that they offer a better plan (38% of Republicans support abortion rights in all or most cases). Or convince non-voters to get off their asses to protect our rights. Neither is going to be accomplished by simply attacking moderates ad nauseam. Remember how in the 90s, marriage equality seemed impossible? And now 70% of all Americans support marriage equality. That's not just Liberals, that's 55% of Republicans, too.
GasBandit
Staff member
Old people dying off is probably the single most helpful trend for progressive causes.
So you are still lying about the democrat establishment being the democrat base?
I think we can also conclude that current Democrat leadership is incapable of doing so since they’ve proven completely inept at moving the needle.
I remember Obama being too chickenshit to come out publicly for marriage equality because he was worried that it would anger his black religious base. And then I remember how his private support for gay marriage helped shift the polls not a single percentage but him actually coming out and publicly supporting gay marriage swung the black religious community to support gay marriage practically overnight.
Which I think supports my belief that Democrat leadership actually leading can change what people support.
Is accusing someone of intentionally misleading really necessary? My 10 year old does, whether or not someone is misinformed, makes an error, or is, in fact, intentionally misleading. Is that the level of discourse we are striving for here?
I wish I didn’t have to but this is the second time she has done so in this conversation. So I think it’s called for.