Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats
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GasBandit
Staff member
Oof. It's a bad day to not be rich, white, and straight.
We can only hope the sting of this stays fresh in the mind in the elections in a year and a half from now.
I know it's trite to say but this is an excellent chance to reiterate that elections have consequences.
This happened solely because Trump got to put his cronies in the supreme court.
We can only hope the sting of this stays fresh in the mind in the elections in a year and a half from now.
I know it's trite to say but this is an excellent chance to reiterate that elections have consequences.
This happened solely because Trump got to put his cronies in the supreme court.
I'm not doing your research for you. Look up Predatory Student Lending.
GasBandit
Staff member
Especially since, at his instigation, we had this exact same conversation already.
You can't get higher education without a loan in most cases.
You can't not be poor without that higher education (because of networking and gatekeeping, not what it actually teaches you)
So if you don't want to be in poverty you have to take the loan. Or be an amazing football player.
The loans have high interest rates, and the cost of that higher education is inflated because "you can just get a loan."
The people who are griping about "you took a loan pay it back" are the boomers who think it still costs $90/semester for books and tuition.
It costs $100,000-$200,000 to get a 4 year university degree (more if you actually take longer than 4 years, which many do), on top of living expenses.
Interest rates on student loans are generally 6-8% (or up to 35% if you REALLY get taken - loan giant Navient even got in hot water for letting their "subprime" education loans go as high as 50-92% interest) and compound daily.
Most students take 20+ years to pay off their student loans, paying back many times over their initial principal. And they're the lucky ones... some never get out of debt, and their principal keeps going up.
The entire country is now basically a company store. "Well if you can't afford it you shouldn't have bought it" there is no alternative to buying it. It's a racket. It's indentured servitude with extra steps. You have to get the rich to loan you the money to pay the rich to let you get a degree that will enable you to work for the rich, making them richer, while you pay the rich back $1,000+/mo from what the rich pay you.
You can't get higher education without a loan in most cases.
You can't not be poor without that higher education (because of networking and gatekeeping, not what it actually teaches you)
So if you don't want to be in poverty you have to take the loan. Or be an amazing football player.
The loans have high interest rates, and the cost of that higher education is inflated because "you can just get a loan."
The people who are griping about "you took a loan pay it back" are the boomers who think it still costs $90/semester for books and tuition.
It costs $100,000-$200,000 to get a 4 year university degree (more if you actually take longer than 4 years, which many do), on top of living expenses.
Interest rates on student loans are generally 6-8% (or up to 35% if you REALLY get taken - loan giant Navient even got in hot water for letting their "subprime" education loans go as high as 50-92% interest) and compound daily.
Most students take 20+ years to pay off their student loans, paying back many times over their initial principal. And they're the lucky ones... some never get out of debt, and their principal keeps going up.
The entire country is now basically a company store. "Well if you can't afford it you shouldn't have bought it" there is no alternative to buying it. It's a racket. It's indentured servitude with extra steps. You have to get the rich to loan you the money to pay the rich to let you get a degree that will enable you to work for the rich, making them richer, while you pay the rich back $1,000+/mo from what the rich pay you.
figmentPez
Staff member
What part of "our taxes should have gone to pay for their education in the first place" do you not understand?
“Black
We have already had this exact same conversation. When we answered your question with several sourced and researched responses, you replied:
…which felt dismissive at best, as if you were replying to each of us with nothing more than a poop emoji.
—Patrick
Authorities say NJ homeowner cut down 32 of neighbor's trees to improve his view, figuring the $1000-per-tree fine for doing so would end up being less than the increase to his property's value.
Well, turns out there's also a requirement to replace the trees that have been cut down with trees "...of a similar size," which means large, fully mature trees have to somehow be brought to a mountainside (that has no road) and cared for for two years to ensure they "take." Also there's an additional $400k punitive charge. The total cost is now estimated to possibly exceed $2million. Oh, and the property in question? It is currently valued at...well, less than that.
--Patrick
See, the reason he won't retain any of this is because you first have to agree that all of this is bad. Tommi has shown that he is in favor of financial caste systems.
So, I'm am in favor of me black (and other underprivileged) students getting into (good) colleges and universities, and I do understand that, in the USA (and yes, also elsewhere, but that's our of scope here) there's been a history of using merit-based to keep out black (and etc) people.
But I fail to see why the left seems to think the abolishment of race-based affirmative action is the biggest deal of the three big verdicts today.
Again, I agree that if a person gets a, whatever, 3.0 GPA despite working a job after hours, coming from a one-parent household, with no support group, they deserve to get access in favor of a person who got the same GPA with the help of a tutors, a whole support system, money, and all the benefits that come with that. And yes, in most cases that first person will be more likely to be black and the second to be white.
I'm not against affirmative action to help ensure social mobility through education and opportunity. But I'd think that enough higher education has shifted sufficiently to the left that they would be able to shape entrance qualifications such that actual people with social, economical, or other barriers they've had to overcome would get preferential treatment without resorting to skin color, specifically.
Again, I know, "merit based" has been abused in the past and will no doubt be abused again to keep darker toned purple out, and that's bad. That doesn't mean literal color based selection is the best solution, though, and the ruling, as far as I can tell, really is quite limited in that regard.
But I fail to see why the left seems to think the abolishment of race-based affirmative action is the biggest deal of the three big verdicts today.
Again, I agree that if a person gets a, whatever, 3.0 GPA despite working a job after hours, coming from a one-parent household, with no support group, they deserve to get access in favor of a person who got the same GPA with the help of a tutors, a whole support system, money, and all the benefits that come with that. And yes, in most cases that first person will be more likely to be black and the second to be white.
I'm not against affirmative action to help ensure social mobility through education and opportunity. But I'd think that enough higher education has shifted sufficiently to the left that they would be able to shape entrance qualifications such that actual people with social, economical, or other barriers they've had to overcome would get preferential treatment without resorting to skin color, specifically.
Again, I know, "merit based" has been abused in the past and will no doubt be abused again to keep darker toned purple out, and that's bad. That doesn't mean literal color based selection is the best solution, though, and the ruling, as far as I can tell, really is quite limited in that regard.
I fear that the only reason it seems that way is BECAUSE of Affirmative Action, and I'd like to be proven wrong, but when we're talking $$$...humanity doesn't have a great track record.
You would think that, but, as @GasBandit already mentions above, it is nigh-impossible to attend whatever higher education you might have been accepted to without first securing a loan, and guess who has trouble securing loans? That's right! It's those darker toned
--Patrick
How long do you think it will take for people to challenge whatever affirmative action replacement colleges come up with? And how many colleges aren’t going to bother?
Hundreds of people of color just got fucked out of a college education. Even if every institution institutes a new affirmative action policy hundreds will still have just gotten fucked over this nonsense.
I'm sorry if I made you feel that way.
At any rate, it seems my commentary is not considered particularly constructive. I'll take this elsewhere.
Your commentary definitely appears to come from a more privileged perspective, one not shared by the rest of us, and you have not been shy about sharing it. For it to be constructive, however, you would need to engage in a dialogue, an exchange of ideas, but you have historically exited every discussion once the word count grows too large. We see you rarely, and so we have no context as to whether this is merely due to demands on your time, or whether you actively avoid “tough” conversations. People who are passionate about their ideals tend to WANT to stay and talk about them, you see, and so your previous (and current!) peremptory exits make you “read” as…well, less than genuine.
Should you visit in the future, I will trade opinions happily and civilly, as I have always endeavored to do, but I will of course expect you to civilly trade your own opinions in return. Otherwise the flow would go in only one direction, and you have already seen how unpopular that idea can be around here.
—Patrick
See, this is where you make your mistake.
You came in to repeat a point you attempted and failed to defend months ago. You repeating the exact same point indicates a complete and total lack of respect for people who tried to have a conversation with you previously.
Why would disrespect be appreciated? You can post your nonsense I just would appreciate if you at least tried to make an argument instead of mindlessly repeating yourself.
I don't understand. When you asked this question before and we took the time to answer it, why should you not be obligated to read it?
I don't want to keep piling on Tommi, but I also don't not want to keep piling on, so...
You and I both know the reason the previous answers weren't read is because this is not an honest question. It's a statement couched as a question to avoid having to take ownership of that statement. The statement being "I think all responsibility should fall upon the borrowers because I support a system in which the wealthy have all the security and the not-wealthy can continue to be exploited through predatory practices."
I really think his lack of understanding for this topic comes from a combination of his political views with a lack of deeper understanding of this very specifically American problem.
(and no, I'm not attacking America or claiming We are So Superior or anything, sheesh).
The American student loan system is a very weird piece of growth and doesn't really make a lot of sense unless you either grow up in it or really spend time with it. In general I'd be tempted to say "why forgive some debt for people who voluntarily choose to take it on?"', too - like, say, randomly forgiving $20K/person in mortgage payments wouldn't rank very high in my list of good ideas to spread wealth around, even after a housing crisis.
But, as I said - the American student loan system is....Something very weird and specifically crafted to keep a large part of the population in check, and not an actual valid healthy monetary solution.
(and no, I'm not attacking America or claiming We are So Superior or anything, sheesh).
The American student loan system is a very weird piece of growth and doesn't really make a lot of sense unless you either grow up in it or really spend time with it. In general I'd be tempted to say "why forgive some debt for people who voluntarily choose to take it on?"', too - like, say, randomly forgiving $20K/person in mortgage payments wouldn't rank very high in my list of good ideas to spread wealth around, even after a housing crisis.
But, as I said - the American student loan system is....Something very weird and specifically crafted to keep a large part of the population in check, and not an actual valid healthy monetary solution.
Full disclosure? I think TommiR’s lack of understanding comes purely from a lack of desire to understand.
There, I said it.
—Patrick
Dave
Staff member
I think you all are being harsh. I really think that the system is so uniquely ameri-broken that it’s hard to fathom.
I don’t think piling on is the answer.
Oh, there is no answer, but piling on at least feels better.
Ok, I will concede to you that maybe his views aren't evil and appreciative of a modern caste system. Maybe, instead, he's just massively ignorant.
But I think he's smarter than that.
I think TommiR can afford to be very socially/economically right wing because he lives in a country which, while most certainly having a lot of problems of their own, is one of the best places of the world to live in.
Heck, I sometimes fall for that, too, and I don't live in Scandinavia.
Not every type of privilege comes from being actually wealthy - it can also come from simply not being confronted with poverty below a certain level because it's simply absent.
I remember...20 years ago perhaps, when I first encountered people actually living on the streets - not just homeless or houseless, but really living on the street, full time. They were very, very rare, because of our social system. There were whole media exposees! Nowadays they're fairly normal in many of the larger cities in our country. Partially because of (illegal) immigration, partially because of economic downturn, partly because of gutting of some of our social systems by right-wing governments.
Heck, I sometimes fall for that, too, and I don't live in Scandinavia.
Not every type of privilege comes from being actually wealthy - it can also come from simply not being confronted with poverty below a certain level because it's simply absent.
I remember...20 years ago perhaps, when I first encountered people actually living on the streets - not just homeless or houseless, but really living on the street, full time. They were very, very rare, because of our social system. There were whole media exposees! Nowadays they're fairly normal in many of the larger cities in our country. Partially because of (illegal) immigration, partially because of economic downturn, partly because of gutting of some of our social systems by right-wing governments.
You misunderstand. I am specifically NOT piling on. Yes, I believe there is some ignorance, perhaps some kind of culturally ingrained (“But we’ve always done it this way!”) ignorance. but I am not automatically assuming it is willful ignorance other than a defensive reaction to having to explore uncomfortable subjects/ideas. I WANT to have these discussions. But I can’t, because the other party keeps disengaging the moment we really start.
Whenever I have a discussion with someone, I expect to walk away having either learned something new, or else having taught the other person something new (or both!), but so far with TommiR it feels like I have not been able to do either.
—Patrick
He already had the reality explained to him. And he still just parroted the exact same thing he said the last time.
Judging from his latest reaction neither is talking to him one on one.
Only real “solution” in our hands is to ignore him and let his clear ignorance go unchallenged since talking to him obviously doesn’t make any kind of difference but that could easily just result in him shitposting more.
My wife has over $150k in student loan debt. It was the degrees she needed in order to be a teacher for ESL. Thankfully my state has a program that after a few years of teaching in a low-income school district such as hers, her debt is completely forgiven. Given her salary, if you want to do her (undeniably necessary) job in other states without such a program, your only options are to come from money or be in debt until you die. There is no realistic third option.
GasBandit
Staff member
North Dakota colleges say Minnesota's free tuition plan "catastrophic" for the state
Minnesota's ambitious plan to give free college to lower-income students threatens a brain drain from institutions in its neighbor state.
www.cbsnews.com