Everyday sexual harassment of women

[Bowielee]

Because men are expected to show their happiness in ways other than smiling.

As someone who has been chewed out for not having the proper amount of enthusiasm in his voice when responding to a friend announcing his engagement, I can say with certainty that men do get told to appear happy. Just because walking around with a smile isn't part of the standard for men, does not mean that we aren't expected to put on a front for the world, or that we don't get called out for failing to put on a socially acceptable mask. Asking women to smile is actually very similar to telling men to not cry. We expect both genders to fit certain expectations for appearance. Smiling is one for women, looking "strong" is one for men.

It is a problem that so many feel that they have the right to tell strangers, or even friends, what type of emotion that they should show at any given time, but that doesn't change the fact that it is often "normal" and done with good intentions. It's a social system that has been built up over time until it has reached the point of being a problem, but that doesn't change that people doing it are not necessarily aware that there's anything wrong with their request, because it is perfectly "normal" within their experience to expect people to fulfill the roles within society, even if those roles are ill-fitting.

For fucks sake. Pay attention in a Sociology class, people.

you do know that this is in reaction to the walking down the street video, right?

Are you saying that men are harassed to show their happiness by strangers on the street?

 

[Cajungal]

you do know that this is in reaction to the walking down the street video, right?

Are you saying that men are harassed to show their happiness by strangers on the street?

Hey, man! Square your shoulders and brood!

 

[GasBandit]

you do know that this is in reaction to the walking down the street video, right?

Are you saying that men are harassed to show their happiness by strangers on the street?

Actually, experienced the opposite.

"The F%#% you so happy about?"
I'm just expected to scowl all the time because ALPHAMALE. RORR.

 

[Bowielee]

Hey, man! Square your shoulders and brood!

Yeah, why don't you look more stoic, baby?

 

[figmentPez]

you do know that this is in reaction to the walking down the street video, right?

Are you saying that men are harassed to show their happiness by strangers on the street?

Well, that's because men aren't supposed to show their happiness, at least not without reason.* Men are generally discouraged from showing much emotion at all. If a man walks down the street with a neutral expression, he's fitting in the socially expected role. However, I have had people tell me to cheer up if I was looking too depressed. Though, admittedly, that happened when I was younger, and still was (or looked like) a child.

*and when there is reason, they are expected to. I bet if a man walked down a line of tailgaters, or around a stadium after a win, and wasn't acting boisterous, he would have people telling him to celebrate. Because in that type of situation, the social expectation switches so that men are expected to be outwardly showing their excitement, and support of their team. Anyone who isn't is either ruining the mood, or must be a supporter of a rival, and will quite possibly get called out on it.

 

[Hailey Knight]

True, but I wasn't writing it off. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" as the old saying goes. I point out the difference not to excuse the behavior, but to try to inform efforts at changing the behavior.

Consider the urban myth of "shake it like a Polaroid picture". I know that I, like most people, saw others flapping Polaroid prints around as they "dried", and thought that sped up the development. In reality, it did no such thing, and potentially blurred or otherwise harmed the resulting photo. Can you imagine how stupid it would be for Polaroid to try and correct that behavior by telling people that they were trying to destroy their own, just taken, photos with that shaking? People would stop listening the moment the Polaroid company said something false, and fairly insulting, about their motivation. Instead, Polaroid acknowledged that people loved their product, and wanted to see the photos as fast as possible, but also tried to inform people that the best way to get beautiful, quick, photos, was leave a print alone until it was ready.

See the parallel? Flapping a Polaroid picture around while it's developing has a real chance at blurring the photo, or causing other artifacts to crop up in development process (in fact, there are some interesting effects you can get by intentionally pressing on parts of the image), but most people did it with the good intention of getting to see their photos faster. Telling women to smile also has real potential to cause distress and other negative effects, but it's hard to say what motivates any given person, and it may well be done with the best of intentions. Neither shaking a Polaroid, nor telling a woman to smile, is a good way to get what's desired, but vilifying the motivation behind the act does nothing to help change the behavior.

I see what you mean, and taken out of exact context this makes sense. However, the example the tweet refers to is some guy calling to a woman walking by with the words of "Hey baby, how about a smile?" Smiling more can actually be beneficial, but that's not what's going on in that context. It's so that a smile is given to him, a gift to him, if you will, i.e. a less crass "show us your tits." That's a motivation we can condemn without ambiguity.

Actually, experienced the opposite.

"The F%#% you so happy about?"
I'm just expected to scowl all the time because ALPHAMALE. RORR.

I've gotten this too. I said "because I'm not you." As an adult now I would've ignored the person and moved on, but I was 19 and stupid.

 

[figmentPez]

I see what you mean, and taken out of exact context this makes sense. However, the example the tweet refers to is some guy calling to a woman walking by with the words of "Hey baby, how about a smile?" Smiling more can actually be beneficial, but that's not what's going on in that context. It's so that a smile is given to him, a gift to him, if you will, i.e. a less crass "show us your tits." That's a motivation we can condemn without ambiguity.

Is that the exact context? Because I've heard a lot of women complaining about being told to smile, and while sometimes it is as crass as you quote, other times it's just a general statement of "you should smile", nothing necessarily personal about it. Sometimes it's easy to see motivation, other times it's not.

 

[GasBandit]

Let me tell you guys, there's a lady I want to tell to smile at work ALL the time. She has got the worst case of bitchy resting face I've ever seen.



I've honestly avoided her as much as I can because I can't figure out if she's really a condescending ass or if it's just her resting face, and I have no wish to pursue the issue and cause workplace drama.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Is that the exact context? Because I've heard a lot of women complaining about being told to smile, and while sometimes it is as crass as you quote, other times it's just a general statement of "you should smile", nothing necessarily personal about it. Sometimes it's easy to see motivation, other times it's not.

In this instance for the video that tweet is responding to, yes.

But I know the other thing you're talking about, and that's really not sexual harassment, I don't know if it's even harassment because as I said in Gasbandit's political thread, I think "being spoken to when you don't want to be spoken to" is too broad a definition for harassment. I think it's people can't mind their own business. "You should smile" may have the best intentions, but it's in the same busybody time of crap as telling people what they should do with their clothes, their hair, their lifestyle, their families, etc. Yeah, sometimes that's fine from friends and family, but people have a habit of just butting in on others where they have no place. I forgot which thread it was in, but Wasabi and Dei were talking about people who feel obligated to spew bullshit parenting advice at anyone they see holding a baby or young child. I don't blame those who end up at the opposite end of the politeness spectrum and just start telling people to fuck off.

I hope that made sense.

 

[Bowielee]

Context is king.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Context is non-gender specific primary leader of a monarchy.

Fixed.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I don't really like the term "resting bitch face"

also again asking @figmentPez to maybe take a step back or think or something? You're hilariously off-base. Why compare "Smile more" to "don't cry"? They're both wrong. One isn't "more wrong" than the other, but one sure as hell is more prevalent and more damaging/hurtful.

also "you should smile more" is really problematic even if it's super polite. In fact, it almost always is super polite and often from old dudes. It feels kind of silly to explain why it's more of an issue than a random guy asking you "what time is it?" or directions or saying "pretty weather we're having lately", etc.

 

[GasBandit]

I don't really like the term "resting bitch face"

And I don't like this zit I just got on the outside of my elbow this weekend from eating all the candy that trick or treaters didn't come get, but I guess we both just get to deal with some facts of life.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

And I don't like this zit I just got on the outside of my elbow this weekend from eating all the candy that trick or treaters didn't come get, but I guess we both just get to deal with some facts of life.

I refuse to consider it a "fact of life" that being demeaned by other people's language is the default

also don't you see the irony that your situation has a cause and effect, and the other one is just from being a woman?

 

[figmentPez]

also again asking @figmentPez to maybe take a step back or think or something? You're hilariously off-base. Why compare "Smile more" to "don't cry"? They're both wrong. One isn't "more wrong" than the other, but one sure as hell is more prevalent and more damaging/hurtful.

They seem equally prevalent to me, if we're talking about the messages from society as a whole, and not talking about specific literal instances where people say those exact words. Both are equally damaging and hurtful. Telling women that they should generally appear smiling and happy as they go about everyday life, is just as harmful as telling men that they should generally refrain from showing emotion.

also "you should smile more" is really problematic even if it's super polite. In fact, it almost always is super polite and often from old dudes. It feels kind of silly to explain why it's more of an issue than a random guy asking you "what time is it?" or directions or saying "pretty weather we're having lately", etc.

Yes, it is problematic. I said that. Multiple times. My analogy to Polaroid film was centered around the idea that it's well-intentioned harm.

 

[GasBandit]

I refuse to consider it a "fact of life" that being demeaned by other people's language is the default

Don't deal with people much, do ya.

 

[Tress]

As a guy, I have had random women cone up to me and tell me to smile more. It really is obnoxious. It's only happened twice in my life, so I can see how annoying/invasive/obnoxious it would feel if it happened 100x more in my life.

 

[ScytheRexx]

It really comes down to intention and how it's presented. The problem with "You should smile more" is that it's more of a demand then anything. No one should "demand" that another person feel a certain way or present themselves a certain way, more so when that person is just a random guy/girl on the street. It's a selfish comment.

However, I don't think those guys that said "Have a nice day." were harassing anyone. I think that is a stretch.

 

[Tress]

Also, in college one of my professors was young and very attractive. She worked hard, knew what she was talking about, and I took her as seriously as I would take any other professor. Other guys in my class did not, and it was disgusting. It all came to a head when, after a test, one of the biggest assholes in my class turned in his paper with a sticky note attached. Care to guess what it said?

"You should smile more, you look pretty."

He said that. To his no-nonsense, not-in-the-mood professor.

The dipshit did not understand why she reported him and he got in a ton of trouble. In his mind he genuinely didn't think he did anything wrong. And that's the root of the problem.

 

[LittleSin]

Unsolicited comments from stranger men is the worst. Even compliments. If you don't respond or acknowledge the comment they start thinking you're a bitch or gay or whatever. If you respond, though, its worst because they think thats an invitation to touch you or continue the conversation.


It's obnoxious and certainly isn't done with a woman's interest in mind. They just feel entitled to female attention and respond poorly when their demands for a smile or their 'well meaning' compliment isn't received.

Really, it's so hard ot explain to dudes because most dudes love it when girls compliment them out of the blue!

 

[Chad Sexington]

There's an element of the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" when someone asserts their comment is well-meaning. All it really says is, "I didn't consider the other person's feelings, and they should be mind-readers."

 

[Hailey Knight]

However, I don't think those guys that said "Have a nice day." were harassing anyone. I think that is a stretch.

Unless you're that old guy who hands out cards explaining to people why they should say "I hope you have a nice day" instead of "have a nice day." I wish I was making that up.

Unsolicited comments from stranger men is the worst. Even compliments. If you don't respond or acknowledge the comment they start thinking you're a bitch or gay or whatever. If you respond, though, its worst because they think thats an invitation to touch you or continue the conversation.


It's obnoxious and certainly isn't done with a woman's interest in mind. They just feel entitled to female attention and respond poorly when their demands for a smile or their 'well meaning' compliment isn't received.

Really, it's so hard ot explain to dudes because most dudes love it when girls compliment them out of the blue!

This is why the few times I've complimented a woman I didn't know, usually her hat or if her hair is colored purple or something, I've done it as I was leaving the area/transit so there was no pressure. (Hell, the only pressure in one instance was my friend with me; she insisted that the other woman would like to hear I thought her hat was cool.)

But these days I just don't anymore. There's really no telling if such a comment is going to be felt as an intrusion or make their day, and I'd rather not contribute to the already negative experience it is to use public transportation as a woman.

 

[sixpackshaker]

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/02/n...banned-from-chatting-up-white-feminist-women/

Now, The New York Times wants to know if a law should shield white feminist women by preventing black and Hispanic men from speaking to them, and possibly offending their tender sensibilities.

 

[LittleSin]

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/02/n...banned-from-chatting-up-white-feminist-women/

Talk about missing the point.

There is different between being yelled at to "smile baby!" while walking down the street and someone coming up to you in a cafe or at the mall and saying "Hi. I just wanted you to know that I LOVE your hair. Have a nice day!"

One is a demand made upon a woman because the man feels like they should be happy little puppets, especially now that He has entered the equation. The other is a polite compliment that makes no demands on the woman and leave the response up to her.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Talk about missing the point.

There is different between being yelled at to "smile baby!" while walking down the street and someone coming up to you in a cafe or at the mall and saying "Hi. I just wanted you to know that I LOVE your hair. Have a nice day!"

One is a demand made upon a woman because the man feels like they should be happy little puppets, especially now that He has entered the equation. The other is a polite compliment that makes no demands on the woman and leave the response up to her.

But Tumblr doesn't make it seem like there's a difference and for an already anxious person like me, it's been made to seem like it's better to say nothing at all to anyone ever.

I think you make a good point though, and the reason there's an issue is because at question, do men have the restraint to say "nice pants" without adding "they'd look nicer on my floor"?*




*funny enough, the first time I heard that line was from one girl to another--they were dating a week later.

 

[LittleSin]

But Tumblr doesn't make it seem like there's a difference and for an already anxious person like me, it's been made to seem like it's better to say nothing at all to anyone ever.

I think you make a good point though, and the reason there's an issue is because at question, do men have the restraint to say "nice pants" without adding "they'd look nicer on my floor"?*




*funny enough, the first time I heard that line was from one girl to another--they were dating a week later.

Tumblr is a good place to learn that a social issue may exist but it's not a great place to determine what is actually acceptable because they tend to...insulate and reassure themselves they are right. I know some on tumblr would be like "SCUM!" but I think most tumblr feminists would agree that there is a stark difference between street harassment and a genuine compliment.

I find the really nutter SJW's on tumblr to be people in their mid teens to very early twenties who have no concept of the real world yet and are just trying to find a 'look at me' niche.

 

[Mathias]

In rural settings I smile and say hello to everyone I pass. In urban settings - nope!

 

[Terrik]

I just pretend Tumblr doesn't even exist.

 

[Celt Z]

In any setting (urban or otherwise), I find it a good rule of thumb that if someone is making eye contact, it's okay to smile, nod, say "Hi"; a small acknowledgment isn't out of the question. However, if the person isn't making eye contact or their body language is projecting that are in their own train of thought, it is rude and, depending on how you do it, possibly harassing to make them acknowledge you. The exception to this being if you know the person or if they are about to injure you or themselves (like walking into traffic). I think this applies to either gender.[DOUBLEPOST=1415105567,1415105467][/DOUBLEPOST]

I just pretend Tumblr doesn't even exist.

I've never actually used Tumblr. I don't think I'm missing much.

 

[Covar]

I've never actually used Tumblr. I don't think I'm missing much.

 

[Krisken]

I have had no problem with Tumblr. I don't know who you people are following to be bombarded with wackadoos.[DOUBLEPOST=1415107381,1415106925][/DOUBLEPOST]

 

[GasBandit]

I live in Texas, and not in Austin or Houston or the DFW Metroplex. Therefore, almost everybody I pass greets me and I greet them. We even wave at each other while driving, regardless if we know who it is or not.

 

[GasBandit]

Does this go here?

 

[PatrThom]

Late to the party, but...


--Patrick

 

[Hailey Knight]