This is a pretty good comic that might prove informative!!! I didn't want to derail the Zoe Quinn thread any further.
http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/
http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/
Everyday sexual harassment of women
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
If only it actually loaded.
Edit - well, I guess it IS loading, just at early dialup speed.
Edit 2 - still waiting for it to load, but I was amused by the fact that the author felt the need to put a trigger warning in the comic's description - a trigger warning you had to scroll past the 10 page (I counted hitting PGDN on a 1080p screen) comic to see. Pretty sure that's like yelling "heads up!" after the baseball has already smacked someone in the face. Also, lawl Trigger warnings.
Edit - well, I guess it IS loading, just at early dialup speed.
Edit 2 - still waiting for it to load, but I was amused by the fact that the author felt the need to put a trigger warning in the comic's description - a trigger warning you had to scroll past the 10 page (I counted hitting PGDN on a 1080p screen) comic to see. Pretty sure that's like yelling "heads up!" after the baseball has already smacked someone in the face. Also, lawl Trigger warnings.
A) there's a difference between sexism and harassment
B) there's a difference between harassment and sexual harassment
C) I do not agree with each and every part of that comic, though I do agree with the idea behind it and most of it
D) I feel absolutely no desire to even try to have this conversation in an environment where I know you (you specifically, not a generalized you) will twist and turn words to make anyone who isn't championing your cause into a rape apologist, woman-abusing, aggressive asshole or some version there-of.
E) several of the examples mentioned in the comic exist in the opposite direction as well, and/or have nothing at all to do with men being male and women being female. To take an example, I've used "sorry, I have a boyfriend/girlfriend" before, and I've seen/heard it used by lesbians and homosexual men as well. Some people won't accept "no" for an answer and will thrust themselves at you in the hope of scoring because they're "obviously" what you want. It's a fairly painless "out" when someone's coming on to you and you're not interested. That the situation most often involves women saying it to men is because, in our society, women are still considered the ones who get picked up and men are considered the ones who have to make a move. This is changing, and it's only positive that women are starting to make moves on men as well. It isn't so much "men" as "people who feel they have to make a move and then are too insecure or too bad at reading people to back down when the other party lacks interest.
B) there's a difference between harassment and sexual harassment
C) I do not agree with each and every part of that comic, though I do agree with the idea behind it and most of it
D) I feel absolutely no desire to even try to have this conversation in an environment where I know you (you specifically, not a generalized you) will twist and turn words to make anyone who isn't championing your cause into a rape apologist, woman-abusing, aggressive asshole or some version there-of.
E) several of the examples mentioned in the comic exist in the opposite direction as well, and/or have nothing at all to do with men being male and women being female. To take an example, I've used "sorry, I have a boyfriend/girlfriend" before, and I've seen/heard it used by lesbians and homosexual men as well. Some people won't accept "no" for an answer and will thrust themselves at you in the hope of scoring because they're "obviously" what you want. It's a fairly painless "out" when someone's coming on to you and you're not interested. That the situation most often involves women saying it to men is because, in our society, women are still considered the ones who get picked up and men are considered the ones who have to make a move. This is changing, and it's only positive that women are starting to make moves on men as well. It isn't so much "men" as "people who feel they have to make a move and then are too insecure or too bad at reading people to back down when the other party lacks interest.
I'm going to agree with Steinman and Bubble. This is a worthwhile discussion, but not one to be had with the party involved.
BTW, this is what I'm talking about when I say you're a cancer to your own cause, Charlie. This could be a good, even important, discussion to have, but we won't do it because everyone knows you'll be a toolbag about it and ruin it.
BTW, this is what I'm talking about when I say you're a cancer to your own cause, Charlie. This could be a good, even important, discussion to have, but we won't do it because everyone knows you'll be a toolbag about it and ruin it.
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Some of the things in that comic aren't even sexist. A guy sitting with his legs wide? Yeah, that's rude, but it's not because he's a guy, it's because he's inconsiderate. I've routinely had to step off of the path when walking to class in order to let a group of women pass because they were taking up the entire walkway, oblivious to those around them. There are people of all genders (and all races) who are inconsiderate of how much space they take up in public, and it has nothing to do with their demographics.
EDIT: Also, as a guy who has been told by complete strangers that he should cheer up, smile, or otherwise not look depressed in public, it's not a gender thing. Well, it is, because I'm sure women hear it more, but that's because society teaches us that it's acceptable to care about random women, but to fear random men. It's a problem that we think we can tell random people to smile, and it's a problem that happens more to women, but it's not because they're women that we think they should smile.
EDIT: Also, as a guy who has been told by complete strangers that he should cheer up, smile, or otherwise not look depressed in public, it's not a gender thing. Well, it is, because I'm sure women hear it more, but that's because society teaches us that it's acceptable to care about random women, but to fear random men. It's a problem that we think we can tell random people to smile, and it's a problem that happens more to women, but it's not because they're women that we think they should smile.
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One of my best friends told me something when we were freshmen in college that has always stuck with me. He has always been savvy beyond his years. He said that things like this are extreme, and they're not fair either, but they're a pendulum swing. The people saying it really want the pendulum in the middle, but to center it, they have to pull it really far to the other side.
A lot of rude guys spread their legs on the bus/train regardless of the gender of who's sitting next to them.
Anyone, fun conversation I overheard at the bus center:
Guy: "Hey, you're pretty."
Girl: "Thank you."
Guy: "You got a boyfriend?"
Girl: "No."
Guy: "So, let's go out sometime."
Girl: "Thanks, but no."
Guy: "Why not? Not like you got a boyfriend."
Girl: "I don't feel like it."
Guy: "Why? Come on."
Girl: "I have to study."
Guy: "Okay, but you're not studying every night."
Girl: "And I have work."
Guy: "You're not always working. Come on, let's go out."
Girl: "I don't want to."
Guy: "Why? You got somebody you like."
Girl: "Um."
Guy: "Do you?"
Girl: "Yeah, I do."
Guy: "So why ain't you with him?"
Girl: "I just haven't told him yet."
Guy: "You got go after that. You must not want to be with him that bad."
Girl: "I should talk to him."
Guy: "Alright, yeah, you do that. But if it doesn't work out, take my number."
Girl: "Okay."
Quiet after that. My bus came then and I don't know if the conversation continued.
Anyone, fun conversation I overheard at the bus center:
Guy: "Hey, you're pretty."
Girl: "Thank you."
Guy: "You got a boyfriend?"
Girl: "No."
Guy: "So, let's go out sometime."
Girl: "Thanks, but no."
Guy: "Why not? Not like you got a boyfriend."
Girl: "I don't feel like it."
Guy: "Why? Come on."
Girl: "I have to study."
Guy: "Okay, but you're not studying every night."
Girl: "And I have work."
Guy: "You're not always working. Come on, let's go out."
Girl: "I don't want to."
Guy: "Why? You got somebody you like."
Girl: "Um."
Guy: "Do you?"
Girl: "Yeah, I do."
Guy: "So why ain't you with him?"
Girl: "I just haven't told him yet."
Guy: "You got go after that. You must not want to be with him that bad."
Girl: "I should talk to him."
Guy: "Alright, yeah, you do that. But if it doesn't work out, take my number."
Girl: "Okay."
Quiet after that. My bus came then and I don't know if the conversation continued.
Yes, you're not allowed to be comfortable. Ever. Now crush your testicles.
But apparently sitting crotch open and knees out is a dominant body posture, which is why some people find it offensive? I dunno, it's generally how I like to sit, or figure four cross-legged, ankle to knee.
Is shaming men for sitting a certain way really a thing?!
I guess so! http://theflounce.com/men-taking-much-space-subway-turkeys-close-legs-campaign/
Really, this is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
But apparently sitting crotch open and knees out is a dominant body posture, which is why some people find it offensive? I dunno, it's generally how I like to sit, or figure four cross-legged, ankle to knee.
Is shaming men for sitting a certain way really a thing?!
I guess so! http://theflounce.com/men-taking-much-space-subway-turkeys-close-legs-campaign/
Really, this is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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You know part of me wants to get philosophical and talk about this, then the other part of me realizes how unqualified and disrespectful it would sound coming from someone like me. All I can really say is that all people deserve respect, but due to how we are wired as animals, it will always be an uphill battle. We just have to make sure we keep climbing.
I don't care about knees touching. If I'm already seated and the guy next to me wants to splay, I'm not moving my legs, they're already in my area. He can air out his crotch when I get off at my stop.
But where this is usually a thing of contention is because the guy is spreading his legs across to the other seat's leg area, meaning the only place for your legs is out in the aisle, which then is in everyone else's way.[DOUBLEPOST=1408792873,1408792833][/DOUBLEPOST] We are having a dialogue about sexual harassment, Charlie; the details are out of your control. This is what you wanted. Look at it. LOOK AT IT.
But where this is usually a thing of contention is because the guy is spreading his legs across to the other seat's leg area, meaning the only place for your legs is out in the aisle, which then is in everyone else's way.[DOUBLEPOST=1408792873,1408792833][/DOUBLEPOST] We are having a dialogue about sexual harassment, Charlie; the details are out of your control. This is what you wanted. Look at it. LOOK AT IT.
My friend is a homecare nurse, and so she's driving around the city all day during the week. She is subject to some pretty disgusting things on a daily basis. Some of the things she says make me afraid for her safety. One guy followed her into an apartment building's parking lot, and when she was behind the building's security door, he humped the door, mimed cunnilingus and yelled "SLUT!" when she ignored him. (Because the slutty thing is to not... have... sex... ???) That's exceptional, generally her days consist of wolf-whistles, vulgar comments yelled at her while driving or walking, guys working the drive-through windows making comments...
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