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Everyday sexual harassment of women

Aug 21, 2014#1

Charlie Don't Surf

This is a pretty good comic that might prove informative!!! I didn't want to derail the Zoe Quinn thread any further.

http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/

Aug 21, 2014#2

GasBandit

If only it actually loaded.

Edit - well, I guess it IS loading, just at early dialup speed.

Edit 2 - still waiting for it to load, but I was amused by the fact that the author felt the need to put a trigger warning in the comic's description - a trigger warning you had to scroll past the 10 page (I counted hitting PGDN on a 1080p screen) comic to see. Pretty sure that's like yelling "heads up!" after the baseball has already smacked someone in the face. Also, lawl Trigger warnings.

Aug 21, 2014#3

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
If only it actually loaded.

Edit - well, I guess it IS loading, just at early dialup speed.

Edit 2 - still waiting for it to load, but I was amused by the fact that the author felt the need to put a trigger warning in the comic's description - a trigger warning you had to scroll past the 10 page (I counted hitting PGDN on a 1080p screen) comic to see. Pretty sure that's like yelling "heads up!" after the baseball has already smacked someone in the face. Also, lawl Trigger warnings.

Weird, loaded instantly for me.

So ... what are we doing with this thread?

Aug 21, 2014#4

SpecialKO

Zero Esc said:
Weird, loaded instantly for me.

So ... what are we doing with this thread?

Honestly, probably waiting for Jay to show up.

That image doesn't really seem to constitute real discussion (mostly because I suspect most folk here don't inherently disagree with anything in it), so this thread will likely remain mostly empty until then.

Aug 21, 2014#5

PatrThom

Didn't Pez already post this?

--Patrick

Aug 21, 2014#6

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
Didn't Pez already post this?

I've never seen this before.

Aug 21, 2014#7

Hailey Knight

SpecialKO said:
Honestly, probably waiting for Jay to show up.

That image doesn't really seem to constitute real discussion (mostly because I suspect most folk here don't inherently disagree with anything in it), so this thread will likely remain mostly empty until then.

Probably. "Call out the guy being an ass" isn't likely to be a divisive issue.

Aug 21, 2014#8

PatrThom

I know someone else already posted this comic in another thread, I think it was linked from imgur instead of that website, though.

--Patrick

Aug 21, 2014#9

GasBandit

Zero Esc said:
Weird, loaded instantly for me.

In the intervening seven hours, the hosting must have gotten its ducks in a row.

Aug 21, 2014#10

PatrThom

Probably reversed the polarity on its server phase converters or something.

--Patrick

Aug 21, 2014#11

drifter

PatrThom said:
I know someone else already posted this comic in another thread, I think it was linked from imgur instead of that website, though.

--Patrick

Dei posted it once. Not sure if anyone else did.

Aug 22, 2014#12

Charlie Don't Surf

I missed it! sorry!

I think a lot of people either don't agree with it, or aren't aware of some of the ideas in it, since I see a lot of the everyday sexism/harassment described on a daily basis on these forums!

Aug 22, 2014#13

Bubble181

A) there's a difference between sexism and harassment
B) there's a difference between harassment and sexual harassment
C) I do not agree with each and every part of that comic, though I do agree with the idea behind it and most of it
D) I feel absolutely no desire to even try to have this conversation in an environment where I know you (you specifically, not a generalized you) will twist and turn words to make anyone who isn't championing your cause into a rape apologist, woman-abusing, aggressive asshole or some version there-of.
E) several of the examples mentioned in the comic exist in the opposite direction as well, and/or have nothing at all to do with men being male and women being female. To take an example, I've used "sorry, I have a boyfriend/girlfriend" before, and I've seen/heard it used by lesbians and homosexual men as well. Some people won't accept "no" for an answer and will thrust themselves at you in the hope of scoring because they're "obviously" what you want. It's a fairly painless "out" when someone's coming on to you and you're not interested. That the situation most often involves women saying it to men is because, in our society, women are still considered the ones who get picked up and men are considered the ones who have to make a move. This is changing, and it's only positive that women are starting to make moves on men as well. It isn't so much "men" as "people who feel they have to make a move and then are too insecure or too bad at reading people to back down when the other party lacks interest.

Aug 22, 2014#14

Bowielee

I'm going to agree with Steinman and Bubble. This is a worthwhile discussion, but not one to be had with the party involved.

BTW, this is what I'm talking about when I say you're a cancer to your own cause, Charlie. This could be a good, even important, discussion to have, but we won't do it because everyone knows you'll be a toolbag about it and ruin it.

Aug 22, 2014#15

Charlie Don't Surf

roll eyes

Aug 22, 2014#16

GasBandit

Buck up, Charlie. I'll oppress women for you. Ok? Then we can go get ice cream.

Aug 22, 2014#17

figmentPez

Some of the things in that comic aren't even sexist. A guy sitting with his legs wide? Yeah, that's rude, but it's not because he's a guy, it's because he's inconsiderate. I've routinely had to step off of the path when walking to class in order to let a group of women pass because they were taking up the entire walkway, oblivious to those around them. There are people of all genders (and all races) who are inconsiderate of how much space they take up in public, and it has nothing to do with their demographics.

EDIT: Also, as a guy who has been told by complete strangers that he should cheer up, smile, or otherwise not look depressed in public, it's not a gender thing. Well, it is, because I'm sure women hear it more, but that's because society teaches us that it's acceptable to care about random women, but to fear random men. It's a problem that we think we can tell random people to smile, and it's a problem that happens more to women, but it's not because they're women that we think they should smile.

Aug 22, 2014#18

fade

One of my best friends told me something when we were freshmen in college that has always stuck with me. He has always been savvy beyond his years. He said that things like this are extreme, and they're not fair either, but they're a pendulum swing. The people saying it really want the pendulum in the middle, but to center it, they have to pull it really far to the other side.

Aug 22, 2014#19

GasBandit

fade said:
One of my best friends told me something when we were freshmen in college that has always stuck with me. He has always been savvy beyond his years. He said that things like this are extreme, and they're not fair either, but they're a pendulum swing. The people saying it really want the pendulum in the middle, but to center it, they have to pull it really far to the other side.

That's very similar to what I've said about Libertarianism for a while.

Aug 22, 2014#20

fade

The same is true of the liberal platform. It's probably not a huge shocker that roughly zero people want big government intervention in anything.

Aug 22, 2014#21

Hailey Knight

A lot of rude guys spread their legs on the bus/train regardless of the gender of who's sitting next to them.

Anyone, fun conversation I overheard at the bus center:

Guy: "Hey, you're pretty."
Girl: "Thank you."
Guy: "You got a boyfriend?"
Girl: "No."
Guy: "So, let's go out sometime."
Girl: "Thanks, but no."
Guy: "Why not? Not like you got a boyfriend."
Girl: "I don't feel like it."
Guy: "Why? Come on."
Girl: "I have to study."
Guy: "Okay, but you're not studying every night."
Girl: "And I have work."
Guy: "You're not always working. Come on, let's go out."
Girl: "I don't want to."
Guy: "Why? You got somebody you like."
Girl: "Um."
Guy: "Do you?"
Girl: "Yeah, I do."
Guy: "So why ain't you with him?"
Girl: "I just haven't told him yet."
Guy: "You got go after that. You must not want to be with him that bad."
Girl: "I should talk to him."
Guy: "Alright, yeah, you do that. But if it doesn't work out, take my number."
Girl: "Okay."

Quiet after that. My bus came then and I don't know if the conversation continued.

Aug 22, 2014#22

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I missed it! sorry!

I think a lot of people either don't agree with it, or aren't aware of some of the ideas in it, since I see a lot of the everyday sexism/harassment described on a daily basis on these forums!

Uh.. can you link specific posts, or are you (as usual) blowing smoke out of your ass?

Aug 22, 2014#23

Ravenpoe

Wait, is it rude to sit with your knees apart?

Aug 22, 2014#24

Mathias

Ravenpoe said:
Wait, is it rude to sit with your knees apart?

Yes, you're not allowed to be comfortable. Ever. Now crush your testicles.

But apparently sitting crotch open and knees out is a dominant body posture, which is why some people find it offensive? I dunno, it's generally how I like to sit, or figure four cross-legged, ankle to knee.

Is shaming men for sitting a certain way really a thing?!

I guess so! http://theflounce.com/men-taking-much-space-subway-turkeys-close-legs-campaign/

Really, this is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Aug 22, 2014#25

Dei

Well in this case, I find it rude, since public transportation is already basically sardine cans.

Aug 22, 2014#26

Mathias

Dei said:
Well in this case, I find it rude, since public transportation is already basically sardine cans.

I'd shift a bit to make some space if someone wanted to sit next to me, but sorry, you're not going to melt if my knee touches yours.

Aug 22, 2014#27

ScytheRexx

You know part of me wants to get philosophical and talk about this, then the other part of me realizes how unqualified and disrespectful it would sound coming from someone like me. All I can really say is that all people deserve respect, but due to how we are wired as animals, it will always be an uphill battle. We just have to make sure we keep climbing.

Aug 23, 2014#28

Charlie Don't Surf

the thing about men sitting with their legs apart is really low on my priority list tbh, and not something I particularly know much about since the South has horrible public transit options

Aug 23, 2014#29

Hailey Knight

Mathias said:
I'd shift a bit to make some space if someone wanted to sit next to me, but sorry, you're not going to melt if my knee touches yours.

I don't care about knees touching. If I'm already seated and the guy next to me wants to splay, I'm not moving my legs, they're already in my area. He can air out his crotch when I get off at my stop.

But where this is usually a thing of contention is because the guy is spreading his legs across to the other seat's leg area, meaning the only place for your legs is out in the aisle, which then is in everyone else's way.[DOUBLEPOST=1408792873,1408792833][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
the thing about men sitting with their legs apart is really low on my priority list tbh, and not something I particularly know much about since the South has horrible public transit options

We are having a dialogue about sexual harassment, Charlie; the details are out of your control. This is what you wanted. Look at it. LOOK AT IT.

Aug 23, 2014#30

fade

I don't normally like participating in the Charlie bashing but I have to admit that was funny.

Aug 23, 2014#31

Chad Sexington

My friend is a homecare nurse, and so she's driving around the city all day during the week. She is subject to some pretty disgusting things on a daily basis. Some of the things she says make me afraid for her safety. One guy followed her into an apartment building's parking lot, and when she was behind the building's security door, he humped the door, mimed cunnilingus and yelled "SLUT!" when she ignored him. (Because the slutty thing is to not... have... sex... ???) That's exceptional, generally her days consist of wolf-whistles, vulgar comments yelled at her while driving or walking, guys working the drive-through windows making comments...

Aug 23, 2014#32

Mathias

Chad Sexington said:
My friend is a homecare nurse, and so she's driving around the city all day during the week. She is subject to some pretty disgusting things on a daily basis. Some of the things she says make me afraid for her safety. One guy followed her into an apartment building's parking lot, and when she was behind the building's security door, he humped the door, mimed cunnilingus and yelled "SLUT!" when she ignored him. (Because the slutty thing is to not... have... sex... ???) That's exceptional, generally her days consist of wolf-whistles, vulgar comments yelled at her while driving or walking, guys working the drive-through windows making comments...

Yes, I want to know where Charlie gets the idea that people act like this on these forums.

Aug 23, 2014#33

PatrThom

Mathias said:
Yes, I want to know where Charlie gets the idea that people act like this on these forums.

He's seen how we look at the monitor, how we caress our keyboards. He knows what that means.

--Patrick

Aug 23, 2014#34

SpecialKO

PatrThom said:
He's seen how we look at the monitor, how we caress our keyboards. He knows what that means.

--Patrick

Aug 23, 2014#35

Bowielee

Mathias said:
Yes, I want to know where Charlie gets the idea that people act like this on these forums.

I've seen some pretty gross reactions to cosplay pictures posted here.

Aug 23, 2014#36

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
I've seen some pretty gross reactions to cosplay pictures posted here.

I blame Shego.

Aug 24, 2014#37

PatrThom

Image editing contest: If Men Had To Put Up With The Same Crap As Women
"Hah-haa!"
"Wait, this isn't funny, it's commentary."
"Oh, but it's so silly!"

--Patrick

Aug 24, 2014#38

Bowielee

He-Hulk already exists. He's called The Hulk and he wears an even skimpier outfit than the one that they photoshopped in there.

Aug 24, 2014#39

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
He-Hulk already exists. He's called The Hulk and he wears an even skimpier outfit than the one that they photoshopped in there.

The skyrim one isn't even edited. ~~I have those mods~~ I've heard of those mods.

Aug 24, 2014#40

PatrThom

Bowielee said:
He-Hulk already exists. He's called The Hulk and he wears an even skimpier outfit than the one that they photoshopped in there.

Yes, but he's "Male Hulk," not "Sexy Male Hulk."

--Patrick

Aug 24, 2014#41

Ravenpoe

PatrThom said:
Yes, but he's "Male Hulk," not "Sexy Male Hulk."

--Patrick

I'm sure there are some that would disagree.

Aug 24, 2014#42

GasBandit

The genderswap "see how YOU like it" thing never works. Guys think it's hilarious, and love being made sexual objects.

Aug 24, 2014#43

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
The genderswap "see how YOU like it" thing never works. Guys think it's hilarious, and love being made sexual objects.

I never understood the whole reversal idea. There have been situations where I thought "if our genders were reversed, this would be bad ... but I'm cool with it happening to me."

Women sexually objectify straight men, the men go:

Aug 24, 2014#44

Bowielee

Well, if women objectified men the way that men objectified women.... well, you'd have the gay community.

To an extent, we kind of love to be objectified. There's a reason that gay "dating" apps are full of faceless torsos and dicks.

Aug 24, 2014#45

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Well, if women objectified men the way that men objectified women.... well, you'd have the gay community.

Just not as well dressed.

Aug 24, 2014#46

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
Well, if women objectified men the way that men objectified women.... well, you'd have the gay community.

To an extent, we kind of love to be objectified. There's a reason that gay "dating" apps are full of faceless torsos and dicks.

I can't be on Tumblr without seeing girls objectify gay men, but swap the genders and that continues.

Aug 25, 2014#47

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
Image editing contest: If Men Had To Put Up With The Same Crap As Women
"Hah-haa!"
"Wait, this isn't funny, it's commentary."
"Oh, but it's so silly!"

I couldn't get past the red carpet tuxedos pic. What a colossal lack of effort. No one pays much attention to guy's fashion choices at awards because most tuxedos look pretty much the same. If there were as much variety in menswear as there is in dresses, then you'd see the camera panning up and down the male bodies as well. If women all wore almost identical black dresses, people would pay a lot less attention.

Aug 25, 2014#48

GasBandit

I guess this is a good place to post this... someone has protoyped color-change nail polish that changes color in the presence of date-rape drugs. Suitable for testing your drink.

https://www.facebook.com/undercovercolors

Aug 25, 2014#49

PatrThom

Handy.

--Patrick

Aug 25, 2014#50

Charlie Don't Surf

I'd rather that money / effort go into teaching men not to sexually assault women instead

Aug 25, 2014#51

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'd rather that money / effort go into teaching men not to sexually assault women instead

And I'd rather be the king of Londinium and wear a shiny hat. But "Hay rapists stop raping" is no more effective than "Hey killers stop killing" or "Hey burglars stop burgling." If they get it worked out well enough, this color-change nail polish could be an effective tool to combat the problem, making would-be dosers fear "Ahmigawd what if she has that color change shit on her nails fuck man I don't want to go to jail they pass guys like me around like a spliff there" returning the power to his would-be victim, and perhaps even other women not even in that situation.

Kind of like how caller ID stomped out the vast majority of prank calls. Do you think the technology spent developing caller ID would have been better spent teaching preteens not to prank call?

Aug 25, 2014#52

Espy

The reason why gender swap stuff doesn't usually work isn't because men find it funny, which they do, but because it's a power issue, not a sex issue.

Aug 25, 2014#53

GasBandit

Man, I think even Scott Kurtz delved into this years and years ago. Remember the Halloween strip arc one year where Jade was mad at Brent, claiming he was objectifying her, so to let him "see what it feels like," they went to the PVP Halloween party dressed as each other, and JadeBrent spent the entire evening verbally objectifying him and making unsubtle innuendo and what not, and when she finally asked BrentJade "So how does it feel?" he basically replied he'd never been more turned on in his entire life?

Not meant as an example to "prove" anything, but just related content on the topic.

Aug 25, 2014#54

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
Kind of like how caller ID stomped out the vast majority of prank calls. Do you think the technology spent developing caller ID would have been better spent teaching preteens not to prank call?

I don't think Caller ID was made for the sole purpose of eliminating prank calls. This stuff has no function at all except in a society where people drug and rape each other on a regular basis, and I think we can be better than that.

Aug 25, 2014#55

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I don't think Caller ID was made for the sole purpose of eliminating prank calls. This stuff has no function at all except in a society where people drug and rape each other on a regular basis, and I think we can be better than that.

Actually, it was marketed explicitly as a tool to combat obscene phone calls. I remember the advertisements for it back in the 90s. The silhouette of a man in a dim room dialing a woman, breathing into the mouth piece as she asks "Hello? ... Who's this?" Then she takes a look at the caller ID box (had to get it in a separate box back then because obviously phones weren't equipped with it), "Your number's 555-1234, right?" And the guy panics and hangs up, with a look of "oh shit I'm gon'ta jail" on his face while the woman smiles broadly and hangs up, getting back to her dinner party or whatever.

Really, what other reason would you suggest they had for creating and offering caller ID as a paid extra service besides removing the anonymity from prank/obscene calls? People already used their answering machine to screen calls if they were into that (this was largely before voice mail caught on, too).

As for your second sentence, thousands of years of human history pretty much disagrees with you. We do live in a society and a world where people drug and rape each other - not on a "regular basis" but one time in a thousand will still ruin your life. You can't educate violent criminals not to be violent. At least not without some sci-fi ludovico shit we ain't got yet. You can only make them fear the consequences of being caught, and increase in their mind (and in reality) the likelihood of being busted.

Aug 25, 2014#56

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
And I'd rather be the king of Londinium and wear a shiny hat. But "Hay rapists stop raping" is no more effective than "Hey killers stop killing" or "Hey burglars stop burgling." If they get it worked out well enough, this color-change nail polish could be an effective tool to combat the problem, making would-be dosers fear "Ahmigawd what if she has that color change shit on her nails fuck man I don't want to go to jail they pass guys like me around like a spliff there" returning the power to his would-be victim, and perhaps even other women not even in that situation.

Kind of like how caller ID stomped out the vast majority of prank calls. Do you think the technology spent developing caller ID would have been better spent teaching preteens not to prank call?

Aug 25, 2014#57

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Man, I think even Scott Kurtz delved into this years and years ago. Remember the Halloween strip arc one year where Jade was mad at Brent, claiming he was objectifying her, so to let him "see what it feels like," they went to the PVP Halloween party dressed as each other, and JadeBrent spent the entire evening verbally objectifying him and making unsubtle innuendo and what not, and when she finally asked BrentJade "So how does it feel?" he basically replied he'd never been more turned on in his entire life?

Not meant as an example to "prove" anything, but just related content on the topic.

You know what would work for reversal?

Think about guys' "crazy girl" stories. I mean aside from the "I was an asshole and my girlfriend was so crazy to dump me". The ones I tend to hear are of sudden serious commitment, instant labels, immediate expectations of romance and marriage, talk about future kids, etc WAY too soon, at what would be considered inappropriate points to bring them up, like upon meeting, or a first date.

That would be the equivalent. A lot of women would say they wouldn't want the sexual equivalent of those right off the bat. So, for straight guys to "know how it feels", you'd need to be harassing them with "do you love me?", or "let's get married", or ... I don't know, I'm sure guys can come up with more. Commitment/romantic objectification.

Aug 25, 2014#58

PatrThom

Espy said:
The reason why gender swap stuff doesn't usually work isn't because men find it funny, which they do, but because it's a power issue, not a sex issue.

You know, we keep saying this, but some people either just don't get it, or choose not to believe it.

--Patrick

Aug 25, 2014#59

figmentPez

figmentPez said:
I couldn't get past the red carpet tuxedos pic. What a colossal lack of effort. No one pays much attention to guy's fashion choices at awards because most tuxedos look pretty much the same. If there were as much variety in menswear as there is in dresses, then you'd see the camera panning up and down the male bodies as well. If women all wore almost identical black dresses, people would pay a lot less attention.

And to illustrate what I mean by lack of effort, these are the type of suits & tuxedos that would be featured by fashion coverage of men:

I can guarantee you that the camera panned up and down Gerard Butler when he wore that kilt, and probably Robert Downey Jr. in that purple suit as well. If all the men worse stuff like this, and all the women wore virtually identical outfits, almost all the coverage would be on men. And that's why I think the article was lazy. It just said "Hey, what if we paid attention to men as they most commonly are?" Which is stupid, and indicates they aren't even aware that men get attention for dressing outside the norm.

If I lived somewhere with cooler weather, and had the money, I'd own a closet full of richly colored and patterned suits.

Aug 25, 2014#60

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
And to illustrate what I mean by lack of effort, these are the type of suits & tuxedos that would be featured by fashion coverage of men:

View attachment 15784
View attachment 15785 View attachment 15786

I can guarantee you that the camera panned up and down Gerard Butler when he wore that kilt, and probably Robert Downey Jr. in that purple suit as well. If all the men worse stuff like this, and all the women wore virtually identical outfits, almost all the coverage would be on men. And that's why I think the article was lazy. It just said "Hey, what if we paid attention to men as they most commonly are?" Which is stupid, and indicates they aren't even aware that men get attention for dressing outside the norm.

If I lived somewhere with cooler weather, and had the money, I'd own a closet full of richly colored and patterned suits.

Goddamn RDJ is a pimp.

... Will Smith looks like he wants to sell me insurance. Or tell me about Xenu

Aug 25, 2014#61

bhamv3

PatrThom said:
You know, we keep saying this, but some people either just don't get it, or choose not to believe it.

--Patrick

I personally find "rape is about power, not about sex" to be a far too simplistic view of rape, which makes it a dangerous idea to propagate. Rape has both a sexual element and a power element. It would be wrong to trivialize either of them.

Aug 25, 2014#62

PatrThom

bhamv3 said:
I personally find "rape is about power, not about sex" to be a far too simplistic view of rape, which makes it a dangerous idea to propagate. Rape has both a sexual element and a power element. It would be wrong to trivialize either of them.

However, this line of thinking assumes rape is inextricably linked to some sort of (presumably nonconsensual) sexual act. This is not true. For me, at least, "rape" is not about a degrading sexual act, it is about the degradation inflicted by the act. This expands the definition to include states of forced intrusion which are not limited to the physical realm.

--Patrick

Aug 25, 2014#63

Necronic

bhamv3 said:
I personally find "rape is about power, not about sex" to be a far too simplistic view of rape, which makes it a dangerous idea to propagate. Rape has both a sexual element and a power element. It would be wrong to trivialize either of them.

See really I like to think about it like the civil war...[DOUBLEPOST=1409023520,1409023106][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, I always sit with my legs spread open in any interaction that has a potential for a profitable disparity in the power dynamic, be it a man, woman, or even (I shit you not), and animal. If I'm negotiating, or even just pallin around with some buddies, I'm gonna do stuff that makes other people subconsciously uncomfortable. I make heavy eye contact. I smile with my teeth. I put my boots on the coffee table.

This isn't really targeted at women though. Just people I feel I need to dominate for whatever reason. Or just people I don't fucking like.

Sometimes it's the opposite. In those cases I need to show deference. I avoid eye contact. I keep my head lowered. I slouch to limit my full height.

Body language matters. Use it.

And fwiw my lady dominates the shit out of me regularly and there's really nothing I can do about it even though I am like a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than her.....

Aug 25, 2014#64

bhamv3

PatrThom said:
However, this line of thinking assumes rape is inextricably linked to some sort of (presumably nonconsensual) sexual act. This is not true. For me, at least, "rape" is not about a degrading sexual act, it is about the degradation inflicted by the act. This expands the definition to include states of forced intrusion which are not limited to the physical realm.

--Patrick

I feel this is more about semantics though. By your definition, a hacker breaking into my email and posting the love letters I wrote to my ex-girlfriends would be a type of rape.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a debate about the definition of rape in the non-physical realm. My point is that parroting the idea of "rape is about power, not sex" is an over-simplification.

(On an unrelated note, I should go delete those love letters)

Aug 25, 2014#65

Bowielee

bhamv3 said:
I feel this is more about semantics though. By your definition, a hacker breaking into my email and posting the love letters I wrote to my ex-girlfriends would be a type of rape.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a debate about the definition of rape in the non-physical realm. My point is that parroting the idea of "rape is about power, not sex" is an over-simplification.

(On an unrelated note, I should go delete those love letters)

The problem is when you start getting into people suggesting things like chemical or physical castration as a means that rapists will no longer be able to rape anyone. This is not a solution. Rapists will still rape, regardless of whether they harbor actual sexual urges or not. It's also one of the reasons that male rape was swept under the rug for so long. It was impossible for people to believe for a long time that a woman, not having a penis, could rape a man.

So, yes, it is an important distinction to make.

Aug 25, 2014#66

PatrThom

bhamv3 said:
I feel this is more about semantics though. By your definition, a hacker breaking into my email and posting the love letters I wrote to my ex-girlfriends would be a type of rape.

Yes, but that hacker would be raping your email acct for the purpose of shaming you. It is a discussion about semantics, but I've already said that language is so much richer to me than just 7 basic colors. I know I'm atypical. The puns come easier, though.

--Patrick

Aug 26, 2014#67

Rovewin

PatrThom said:
Yes, but that hacker would be raping your email acct for the purpose of shaming you. It is a discussion about semantics, but I've already said that language is so much richer to me than just 7 basic colors. I know I'm atypical. The puns come easier, though.

--Patrick

Yeah you and I have very different definitions of rape. That way of using it feels like hyperbole that just degrades the meaning of the word. I've always seen the definition as something involving the unwanted sexual assault of someone. I suppose you are going more towards the definition that is the violent seizure/plunder of something but the above example is still hyperbole under that as there is not the violence. It is a violation but not a rape.

Aug 26, 2014#68

Bowielee

Rovewin said:
Yeah you and I have very different definitions of rape. That way of using it feels like hyperbole that just degrades the meaning of the word. I've always seen the definition as something involving the unwanted sexual assault of someone. I suppose you are going more towards the definition that is the violent seizure/plunder of something but the above example is still hyperbole under that as there is not the violence. It is a violation but not a rape.

www.dictionary.com
rape1

[reyp]

noun
1.
the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3.
statutory rape.
4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation:
the rape of the countryside.
5.
Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
verb (used with object), raped, raping.
6.
to force to have sexual intercourse.
7.
to plunder (a place); despoil.
8.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.
verb (used without object), raped, raping.
9.
to commit rape.

So, you're both right.

Aug 26, 2014#69

PatrThom

This sort of thing has been discussed before.
Popular usage v. "soul of the language," etc.

Whichever meaning you choose, they're all criminal done with criminal intent.

--Patrick

Aug 26, 2014#70

Bubble181

True, but it does lend itself to "watering down" rape. And yes, I'm aware that some people like to jump up and down my throat when I say something like that, but there's a difference of gravity between a grope on the bus and being anally violated by 6 men in an alley. Calling both "rape" just means we need yet another word to distinctively mean the worst kind. Both are forms of sexual harassment, both are unacceptable intrusions in personal space and half a dozen other things. I'm not referring to your usage, specifically, Pat, 'cause I do know and understand what you mean, but some people would like to label "being forced to listen to a man drone on about something misogynist"as being "rape". At a certain point, someone could say "I've been raped!" and people wouldn't know how serious to take it. It's like using one sweeping term for everything from pickpocketing to carjacking and home invasions and mail fraud. Yes, they're all theft. But, while all of those are crappy, someone who got swindled out of $500 by a phishing scam gets a different reaction than someone whose home was invaded, whose care and memorabilia were stolen, etc etc. The second one almost being a form of rape, going by the whole "unwanted invasion of personal space" form.

Anyway, the general term ("theft") is, AFAIK, sexual harassment or whatever. "Rape" is a specific term for some of the worse variations, to me.

About the finger nails, I'm sure it can be a step-up to variations that change color with other chemical reactions. Fingernails that color when you're about to hit the limit on alcoholic content, or for all I care that change when you've consumed too many calories, or simply when you're turned on, or in the heat, or.... who knows. In 20 years, people might be arguing that chemically colorchanging nails didn't really start with detecting dat rape drugs, now did they?

Aug 26, 2014#71

Celt Z

Bubble181 said:
True, but it does lend itself to "watering down" rape. And yes, I'm aware that some people like to jump up and down my throat when I say something like that, but there's a difference of gravity between a grope on the bus and being anally violated by 6 men in an alley. Calling both "rape" just means we need yet another word to distinctively mean the worst kind. Both are forms of sexual harassment, both are unacceptable intrusions in personal space and half a dozen other things. I'm not referring to your usage, specifically, Pat, 'cause I do know and understand what you mean, but some people would like to label "being forced to listen to a man drone on about something misogynist"as being "rape". At a certain point, someone could say "I've been raped!" and people wouldn't know how serious to take it. It's like using one sweeping term for everything from pickpocketing to carjacking and home invasions and mail fraud. Yes, they're all theft. But, while all of those are crappy, someone who got swindled out of $500 by a phishing scam gets a different reaction than someone whose home was invaded, whose care and memorabilia were stolen, etc etc. The second one almost being a form of rape, going by the whole "unwanted invasion of personal space" form.

Anyway, the general term ("theft") is, AFAIK, sexual harassment or whatever. "Rape" is a specific term for some of the worse variations, to me.

Usually, at least in my experience, the difference is "sexual assault" and "rape", as in, you can be sexually assaulted in a way that targets your sex/person, but it isn't necessarily rape, but rape is a form of sexual assault. Both are bad and should never be allowed to happen, but I wouldn't consider the number of times I've been sexually assaulted as rape.

Aug 26, 2014#72

Bowielee

http://feministchallengingtransphob.../03/22/if-everything-is-rape-nothing-is-rape/

Thought this was an interesting read and relevant to the conversation.

Aug 26, 2014#73

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
http://www.dictionary.com
5.
Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

"The Rape of the Sabine Women" is referring to how they were abducted, not what happened afterwards, after all.

7.
to plunder (a place); despoil.

Captain Gloriosus raped Thrace thrice?[DOUBLEPOST=1409061132,1409061000][/DOUBLEPOST]

Bowielee said:
http://feministchallengingtransphob.../03/22/if-everything-is-rape-nothing-is-rape/

Thought this was an interesting read and relevant to the conversation.

One thing that definitely HAS annoyed me about the "gaming community" as its overuse of the word "rape" in a context simply meaning victory. Very irritating.

Aug 27, 2014#74

Charlie Don't Surf

PLEASE let us talk about the definition of the word rape and quote a dictionary, that is REALLY a great form of discourse and will help everyone have a greater understanding

Aug 27, 2014#75

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
PLEASE let us talk about the definition of the word rape and quote a dictionary, that is REALLY a great form of discourse and will help everyone have a greater understanding

They're already doing that. Come on, dude, read past the OP.

Aug 27, 2014#76

tegid

[/sarcastic]

Aug 27, 2014#77

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'd rather that money / effort go into teaching men not to sexually assault women instead

What's your price, Charlie? How much money and time would it take to train/bribe you to stop everyday assaulting women? $20? $40? Would a one-time payment be enough, or would we need to set up some kind of subscription thing to keep the "You shouldn't be doing that" fresh in your head?

--Patrick

Aug 27, 2014#78

Charlie Don't Surf

PatrThom said:
What's your price, Charlie? How much money and time would it take to train/bribe you to stop everyday assaulting women? $20? $40? Would a one-time payment be enough, or would we need to set up some kind of subscription thing to keep the "You shouldn't be doing that" fresh in your head?

--Patrick

I have no clue what you're even beginning to say in your post, sorry

Aug 27, 2014#79

Necronic

The way it changes is through coversations like this which will slowly push public opinion in ways that will force public figures to change how they present themselves which will then change the prevailing culture that children are raised in.

And it's working! Just the discussion of it. The whole Dickwolves thing, I can guarantee you that it has changed how a lot of authors write. And I'm not arguing that the Dickwolves argument was right or wrong. I'm jus saying that increased exposure of the issue through discussions like this eventually get us moving (sort of) forward. "Rape culture" will eventually be like civil rights/racism. It will still exist, but it will be socially unacceptable.

So anyways. Keep talking about it. Talking about our problems doesn't directly solve them, but it makes us more thoughtful which goes a long way to fixing things. We're doing it right now. We did it before. And we'll do it again!

Aug 27, 2014#80

PatrThom

stienman said:
This requires one to believe that human babies are blank slates, and that every desire or urge is molded by their environment, though, which few people truly accept, so I'm not sure how he reconciles his assumption that we can have a perfect society if only we change it a little with the fact that people are not 100% defined by their environment.

I could be wrong, but I'm assuming Charlie has had no part in manufacturing kids of his own, and therefore no frame of reference when it comes to the raising of chillens.

--Patrick

Aug 27, 2014#81

PatrThom

stienman said:
It seems so very arbitrary and lacking in reason and logic.

It seems very Hawthornian to me.

To be fair, I believe the question is one of nature AND nurture, with both having a bearing on the finished product. One can blame poor construction on the materials or on the architect, but in reality the end result is mainly the product of both those factors.

--Patrick

Aug 27, 2014#82

Dei

I couldn't decide if I should post this here or the misanthropy thread, but this is the one I found first. http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/09/08/womens-rights-violence-advertising?cmpid=tp-fb

Aug 27, 2014#83

Bowielee

Dei said:
I couldn't decide if I should post this here or the misogyny thread, but this is the one I found first.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/09/08/womens-rights-violence-advertising?cmpid=tp-fb

I don't even have the words....

Aug 27, 2014#84

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
In this utopia, law enforcement would cease to be necessary, which would solve another of his great complaints.

I'm not so sure. Let's say that tomorrow, no one committed any crimes. Would people stop getting pulled over or arrested? I don't think so. Officers show their value through what they bring in, which is why at either the beginning or end of the month, at least up north, you'll see increased police cars on the highway, about three times more than usual for quota time.

Aug 27, 2014#85

blotsfan

Dei said:
I couldn't decide if I should post this here or the misanthropy thread, but this is the one I found first. http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/09/08/womens-rights-violence-advertising?cmpid=tp-fb

I'd say thats a clear case of someone being stupid, but not malicious.

Aug 27, 2014#86

PatrThom

Yes. I don't see the sticker as being "Ha-haa! I have a kidnapped WOMAN in my truck bed because I advocate violence against WOMEN," I see it as "Ha-haa! I have a kidnapped PERSON in my truck bed and it's a picture of a WOMAN because that makes me a bigger troll."

--Patrick

Aug 27, 2014#87

Bowielee

PatrThom said:
Yes. I don't see the sticker as being "Ha-haa! I have a kidnapped WOMAN in my truck bed because I advocate violence against WOMEN," I see it as "Ha-haa! I have a kidnapped PERSON in my truck bed and it's a picture of a WOMAN because that makes me a bigger troll."

--Patrick

The entire concept regardless of gender is just horrible.

Aug 27, 2014#88

PatrThom

Bowielee said:
The entire concept regardless of gender is just horrible.

Oh, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just explaining why I thought a woman's image was chosen.

--Patrick

Aug 27, 2014#89

figmentPez

Dei said:
I couldn't decide if I should post this here or the misanthropy thread, but this is the one I found first. http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/09/08/womens-rights-violence-advertising?cmpid=tp-fb

I saw the image and I thought it was some sort of human trafficking or abuse awareness campaign. It's meant to be a joke?

Well, that killed my appetite. I am now sick to my stomach.

Aug 27, 2014#90

GasBandit

Let me ask you guys a question.. on halloween, when somebody hangs a dummy from a tree dressed in real clothes, do you have the same reaction?

Aug 27, 2014#91

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
Let me ask you guys a question.. on halloween, when somebody hangs a dummy from a tree dressed in real clothes, do you have the same reaction?

Nope, not even a fair comparison. Though there are some people every year who are offended by this. Y'know, the hanging man/KKK connection.

Aug 27, 2014#92

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Nope, not even a fair comparison. Though there are some people every year who are offended by this. Y'know, the hanging man/KKK connection.

I think people are overreacting, including the person who wrote the linked article, who describes the image as a woman "beaten and tied." I didn't see any obvious signs of beating, I think that's just the author's colorful storytelling.

The truck decal might have been in poor taste, but it's hardly a ghastly crime against humanity worth, to borrow a phrase from someone else around here whose name escapes me, all this pearl-clutching.

Aug 27, 2014#93

Bowielee

It was still ridiculously stupid on the part of the person who owns the business. His cavalier attitude about the whole thing also kind of shows that he just doesn't give a flip.

Aug 27, 2014#94

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
Let me ask you guys a question.. on halloween, when somebody hangs a dummy from a tree dressed in real clothes, do you have the same reaction?

I've never seen a photo-realistic dummy hanging from a tree on Halloween. If I did, it probably would make me sick to my stomach, but I'm squeamish like that. However, I wouldn't comment on it, unless the person decided that they were just going to keep it up as decoration all year round, because they think that hanging is a joke.

Aug 29, 2014#95

fade

Yeah, that doesn't even remotely strike me as in the same vein as a halloween decoration, but I'm finding it hard to verbalize why. A Halloween decoration doesn't carry the same implied message. A Halloween decoration is supposed to be scary precisely because you understand that what it represents is bad. Even when used for humor, it's always obvious that what it represents is a bad thing, and as a joke, it's a form of whistling in the dark. The decal implies neither though--only that it's HILARIOUS to have a woman tied up in the back of your truck.

Aug 29, 2014#96

Bowielee

Well, the larger point that people are kind of dancing around is that on Halloween it's expected to see scary/disturbing/gross imagery as part of the sociological construct built around the holiday. That makes the image brought up by Gas completely incomparable.

Aug 29, 2014#97

GasBandit

fade said:
Yeah, that doesn't even remotely strike me as in the same vein as a halloween decoration, but I'm finding it hard to verbalize why. A Halloween decoration doesn't carry the same implied message. A Halloween decoration is supposed to be scary precisely because you understand that what it represents is bad. Even when used for humor, it's always obvious that what it represents is a bad thing, and as a joke, it's a form of whistling in the dark. The decal implies neither though--only that it's HILARIOUS to have a woman tied up in the back of your truck.

Not at all - it's not supposed to be hilarious, it's supposed to be jarring. The point of the decal was to get the quality/realism of the decal noticed, thus drum up custom for the decal shop. No matter how photorealistic it is, however, any lateral movement would reveal it for the sham it was and undo the illusion.

How about this one -

The child drawn on the street is supposed to be jarring to drivers who aren't paying enough attention. Naturally, the illusion breaks down very quickly if you're not in the sweet spot cone of perception, but still, how many people would slam on their brakes? How many rear-end collisions might have occurred because of this? Should the City of Vancouver have been reprimanded for making this happen? The thought of running over a child is just as heartrending.

Aug 29, 2014#98

fade

But that doesn't strike me at all the same either. That was with the intent to be disturbing like Halloween decorations. I don't get that impression at all from the decal people.

Aug 29, 2014#99

GasBandit

fade said:
But that doesn't strike me at all the same either. That was with the intent to be disturbing like Halloween decorations. I don't get that impression at all from the decal people.

And, again, you're getting your impression of the decal people from a hit piece on them.

Aug 29, 2014#100

Espy

Yeah, no, that's pretty uniquely horrible no matter what people try to compare it too.

Aug 29, 2014#101

GasBandit

Espy said:
Yeah, no, that's pretty uniquely horrible no matter what people try to compare it too.

Not really.[DOUBLEPOST=1409365835,1409365372][/DOUBLEPOST]Imgur just learned about those who think as Charlie does on the anti-rape-drug nail polish.

Aug 29, 2014#102

Hailey Knight

How dare people have tools to keep themselves safe.

Aug 29, 2014#103

Mathias

stienman said:
While funny, I think that Charlie is more an optimist than I.

He seems to believe that there exists a societal structure and culture that if we adopted it, people would choose, of their own free will and choice, not to rape. We wouldn't necessarily have to convince, teach, train, or punish crimes because he is of the opinion that human nature doesn't support criminal activities, and that it is only because humans are allowed to grow up in our current (bad) society that they become exposed to and trained to be rapists and perform other criminal activities.

So, in Charlie's mind, the money would go toward creating/adopting that ideal for our society, and the problems will melt away as humanity enters its next stage of peace and happiness. It wouldn't go to anti-rape programs, or anti-rape tools, etc.

In this utopia, law enforcement would cease to be necessary, which would solve another of his great complaints. And the government would lose power - it would still have a role to play, but without significant power there'd be no corruption.

This requires one to believe that human babies are blank slates, and that every desire or urge is molded by their environment, though, which few people truly accept, so I'm not sure how he reconciles his assumption that we can have a perfect society if only we change it a little with the fact that people are not 100% defined by their environment.

It is one of the great Halforums mysteries.

It's about 50/50:: genes/environment. AND I'm a huge fan of epigenetics, where your environment affects your genes and subsequently passes those affected genes to your offspring! People aren't closed systems, and their environment has a huge impact on their character; however, no matter how ideal or Utopian a society is, there will always be bad eggs. Charlie be living in a dream world.

Aug 29, 2014#104

MindDetective

Epigenetics is mind blowing stuff. It apparently doesn't exist in the mobile dictionary either.

Aug 29, 2014#105

figmentPez

Zero Esc said:
How dare people have tools to keep themselves safe.

I know right? I mean, fuck locksmiths and companies like Schlage. They just perpetuate the idea that it's property owners responsibility to prevent theft, and charge people for it! Seriously, any time that you sell security products, you're just sending the message that it's okay to make sure that thieves steal from someone else.

Aug 30, 2014#106

Dei

Aug 30, 2014#107

Hailey Knight

I wish it was as simple as guys being too dumb to know the difference between "That's a cool hat" versus "Yeah, I'd fuck you." But it's not; when pressed, a lot of them don't even know why they do it. It's really just IRL trolling.

Aug 30, 2014#108

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
Worth a reminder:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/090216-bikinis-women-men-objects.html

I forgot all about that article; thanks for posting it.

And the men who scored higher as "hostile sexists"—those who view women as controlling and invaders of male space—didn't show brain activity that indicates they saw the women in bikinis as humans with thoughts and intentions.

That's fucking terrifying.

Aug 30, 2014#109

Espy

GasBandit said:
Not really.

Yeah, it really is. For so many reasons. Some of them being that people think it isn't. That says a lot about the culture we take in and find acceptable.[DOUBLEPOST=1409421081,1409421000][/DOUBLEPOST]

Zero Esc said:
I wish it was as simple as guys being too dumb to know the difference between "That's a cool hat" versus "Yeah, I'd fuck you." But it's not; when pressed, a lot of them don't even know why they do it. It's really just IRL trolling.

I wouldn't call it trolling, I think it's people blind to the realization that the person they are addressing as a object for their own pleasure is as valuable a human as they are. Which is very problematic.

Aug 30, 2014#110

GasBandit

Espy said:
Yeah, it really is. For so many reasons. Some of them being that people think it isn't. That says a lot about the culture we take in and find acceptable.

"It's worse because many people think it isn't worse." That's circuitous logic at its best. Explain to me explicitly why a decal of a tied up woman is worse than a decal of a child about to get run over.

Aug 30, 2014#111

Espy

GasBandit said:
"It's worse because many people think it isn't worse." That's circuitous logic at its best. Explain to me explicitly why a decal of a tied up woman is worse than a decal of a child about to get run over.

You misunderstand, or more likely I didn't phrase it right. It's extra horrible because so many people have bought into a culture that views women as objects for men to use as they see fit (although they are generally oblivious to this, because of that little problem of privilege that I know you loathe) that they see something like that and can't see why it would be problematic (i.e. "Oh sure, it's in bad taste but it's not that bad").

I truly don't expect you to agree, but no amount of telling me how "it's not a big deal" is going to change the fact that that I see a very disturbing cultural problem this sort of thing and the reaction to it from a section of the male population exemplifies.

Aug 30, 2014#112

figmentPez

stienman said:
Worth a reminder:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/090216-bikinis-women-men-objects.html

And the follow up question should be, how much of this is nature and how much is nurture? If we raise men to be think differently, can they view women as people, even when those women are wearing bikinis? Or is it an inevitability of biology that showing a lot of skin will cause most men to think a certain way?

Personally, I hope, and largely suspect, that this is a case of nurture. We can change the way we think, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy, or simple.

Aug 30, 2014#113

GasBandit

Espy said:
You misunderstand, or more likely I didn't phrase it right. It's extra horrible because so many people have bought into a culture that views women as objects for men to use as they see fit (although they are generally oblivious to this, because of that little problem of privilege that I know you loathe) that they see something like that and can't see why it would be problematic.

This implies that the viewer identifies with and approves the concept of the woman tied up, which I don't agree with. If anything, the creator of the decal chose to make it of a woman because he agrees with you - the decal would not have had the same jarring impact if it had depicted a man tied up, because of a long reinforced cultural trope of it being particularly villainous to victimize a woman, as opposed to a man - the man is expected to "be able to defend himself" in our cultural zeitgeist. Snidely Whiplash ties Nell to the tracks, not Dudley. A woman tied up in the back of a truck is reprehensible. An image of a woman tied up in the back of a truck is storytelling. Maybe it's a story you don't want to hear, but that does not make the author an oppressor of women.

To suggest otherwise is to claim someone, be it the creator or the viewer, is unable to distinguish fiction from reality, or is at least influenced by fiction to a great degree - the same argument that says violent video games cause school shootings.

Aug 30, 2014#114

Espy

Like I said, I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm ok with that.

Aug 30, 2014#115

PatrThom

Zero Esc said:
How dare people have tools to keep themselves safe.

Heh. Now you're starting to sound like @GasBandit.

MindDetective said:
Epigenetics is mind blowing stuff.

It's the literal embodiment of nurture influencing Nature.

Zero Esc said:
I wish it was as simple as guys being too dumb to know the difference between "That's a cool hat" versus "Yeah, I'd fuck you." But it's not; when pressed, a lot of them don't even know why they do it. It's really just IRL trolling.

Or a sign that some people haven't learned how to sublimate their id well enough to function in a polite society.

--Patrick

Aug 30, 2014#116

Hailey Knight

PatrThom said:
Heh. Now you're starting to sound like @GasBandit.

Okay?

Or a sign that some people haven't learned how to sublimate their id well enough to function in a polite society.

That implies that there's something for them to gain. Sometimes this is true and sometimes it isn't. They know acting that way isn't going to attract someone, but do it anyway.

Aug 30, 2014#117

GasBandit

Espy said:
Like I said, I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm ok with that.

ARGUE DAMN YOU

Aug 30, 2014#118

Espy

GasBandit said:
ARGUE DAMN YOU

Aug 30, 2014#119

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
ARGUE DAMN YOU

Quick, somebody find JCM!

Sep 1, 2014#120

SpecialKO

Zero Esc said:
Quick, somebody find JCM!

Aren't we all JCM?

Sep 1, 2014#121

ThatNickGuy

SpecialKO said:
Aren't we all JCM?

Psh. I'm not.

...

:ninja:

Sep 1, 2014#122

SpecialKO

ThatNickGuy said:
Psh. I'm not.

...

Of course, you're not! The very idea!

Sep 2, 2014#123

PatrThom

Zero Esc said:
Quick, somebody find JCM!

He's been busy.

(saw this while playing a couple nights ago)

--Patrick

Sep 2, 2014#124

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
He's been busy.

(saw this while playing a couple nights ago)

--Patrick

ALL YOU CAN UPGRADE IS STRENF?!

Sep 2, 2014#125

PatrThom

Pretty substantial article about the Sarkeesian thing over here.

There's a common trope of framing Sarkeesian's work as "cherry-picked", as she takes isolated examples from many games and presents them as a stream of misogyny in order to create the illusion that all of these games are entirely misogynist, the entire way through. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is Sarkeesian is doing with TvsWVG, and what cultural criticism in general is. These are tropes - they're fragments of a whole. [...] In other words, Anita Sarkeesian only presents sections of games as sexist [in her videos] because she's only talking about the sexist bits of games, and how, of the tropes developers choose to put in their games when designing for female characters, they frequently fall back on sexist ones.

--Patrick

Sep 2, 2014#126

GasBandit

stienman said:
http://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-myths-that-will-not-die/

Man, it saved the whammy for last.

MYTH 5: Women earn 77 cents for every dollar a man earns—for doing the same work.
FACTS: No matter how many times this wage gap claim is decisively refuted by economists, it always comes back. The bottom line: the 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time. It does not account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure or hours worked per week. When such relevant factors are considered, the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing.

Sep 2, 2014#127

Charlie Don't Surf

differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure or hours worked per week.

once you take away all of male privilege, yeah, the wage gap is nothin' at all! whew, we cracked it!

also re: the fappening... you ever wonder why there's no celeb dick pics leaked yet??? hum.....

Sep 2, 2014#128

Bowielee

To be fair, there are multiple male celebrities who have had leaked nudes and/or sex tapes come out, such as Fred Durst, Bret Favre, and multiple politicians. The big difference being, women aren't actively seeking out these pictures for sexual gratification, rather the media itself is searching for them for the sheer sentimentalization of them.

Sep 2, 2014#129

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
To be fair, there are multiple male celebrities who have had leaked nudes and/or sex tapes come out, such as Fred Durst, Bret Favre, and multiple politicians. The big difference being, women aren't actively seeking out these pictures for sexual gratification, rather the media itself is searching for them for the sheer sentimentalization of them.

It's almost as if the different genders tend to want different things as erotic stimuli. But that'd be crazy talk.

Sep 2, 2014#130

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
It's almost as if the different genders tend to want different things as erotic stimuli. But that'd be crazy talk.

Way to refute a point I neither made, nor implied.

You're a SUPERSTAR!

Sep 2, 2014#131

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
Way to refute a point I neither made, nor implied.

You're a SUPERSTAR!

I think he was trying to agree with you?

But it's GasBandit, who can tell.

Sep 2, 2014#132

Bowielee

I never CAN tell...

Last time he agreed with me, I thought he was arguing with me.

My world is all topsy turvy when it happens.

Sep 2, 2014#133

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I never CAN tell...

Last time he agreed with me, I thought he was arguing with me.

My world is all topsy turvy when it happens.

Yes, my sarcastic point was in support of yours, and aimed at Charlie's "Why for no dick pics" thing.

Sep 2, 2014#134

Necronic

PatrThom said:
Pretty substantial article about the Sarkeesian thing over here.

--Patrick

Her name rang a bell so I googled her and read her wiki page. Man....that abuse ladled on her was completely inappropriate and unnaceptable

Sep 2, 2014#135

PatrThom

stienman said:
Not due to the points she makes, but the way she makes them.

The persecuted have an unfortunate habit of asking for equality from the persecutor(s) but in actuality demanding retribution. That is, they aren't ever going to be happy until they've experienced the schadenfreude of watching their former oppressors suffer.
I am not accusing Sarkeesian of this (I have no real standing to do so, as I don't remember more than a few minutes of her videos), but this is a common enough feature of most things labeled as "critiques" that her videos have that quality ascribed to them prior to ever pressing the "play" button, and that colors the context and interpretation of the remainder.

--Patrick

Sep 2, 2014#136

SpecialKO

Speaking from personal experience only, she seems much less polarizing among actual developers and and publishers than she is among the vocal section of her critics in the gaming community, even with those who don't agree with her entirely. No one really disagrees that there is a problem, they just disagree on its severity and the best way to deal with it (of note, almost all female developers/producers I've met say, "get more women in the industry into creative control and production, not just as code monkeys or artists or marketers").

Sep 2, 2014#137

ScytheRexx

Been wanting to comment on the whole Sarkeesian situation, but after writing up a long post I feel I got lost in my points and ultimately looked like a bit of a hypocrite.

All I will say is Sarkeesian has a right to her opinions or bringing knowledge about sexism in gaming. This is no reason to send her death threats. She does not deserve that.

Sep 2, 2014#138

Hailey Knight

PatrThom said:
The persecuted have an unfortunate habit of asking for equality from the persecutor(s) but in actuality demanding retribution. That is, they aren't ever going to be happy until they've experienced the schadenfreude of watching their former oppressors suffer.

I think that's a vocal fraction as opposed to an overall climate among persecuted groups.

Sep 3, 2014#139

bhamv3

I've seen paparazzi pictures of Brad Pitt naked.

Sep 3, 2014#140

Ravenpoe

bhamv3 said:
I've taken paparazzi pictures of Brad Pitt naked.

FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#141

Terrik

bhamv3 said:
I've seen paparazzi pictures of me naked.

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#142

Adam

bhamv3 said:
I've taken paparazzi pictures of me naked.

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

Terrik said:
FTFY

FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#143

Ravenpoe

bhamv3 said:
I'm a naked paparazzi

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

Terrik said:
FTFY

Adam said:
FTFY

FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#144

GasBandit

bhamv3 said:
I'm a naked pepperoni.

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

Terrik said:
FTFY

Adam said:
FTFY

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#145

sixpackshaker

bhamv3 said:
I'm a Vegan Peperoni.

GasBandit said:
FTFY

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

Adam said:
FTFY

Terrik said:
FTFY

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#146

Covar

bhamv3 said:
I'm eating Vegan Peperoni.

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

Terrik said:
FTFY

Adam said:
FTFY

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

GasBandit said:
FTFY

sixpackshaker said:
FTFY

FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#147

GasBandit

"I swear to God I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says 'FTFY!'"

Sep 3, 2014#148

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
"I swear to God I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says 'FTFY!'"

I call shenanigans.

Sep 3, 2014#149

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
"I swear to God I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says shenanigans'"

FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#150

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I call shenanigans.

Ravenpoe said:
FTFY

Sep 3, 2014#151

Tiger Tsang

GasBandit said:
"I swear to God I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says 'FTFY!'"

Oh will you, meow?

Sep 3, 2014#152

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
"I swear to God I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says 'FTFY!'"

FTFY

--Patrick

Sep 3, 2014#153

bhamv3

Oh come on, all those FTFY jokes and no one would do me the favor of claiming I'm actually Brad Pitt?

Sep 4, 2014#154

Tinwhistler

Bowielee said:
To be fair, there are multiple male celebrities who have had leaked nudes and/or sex tapes come out, such as Fred Durst, Bret Favre, and multiple politicians. The big difference being, women aren't actively seeking out these pictures for sexual gratification, rather the media itself is searching for them for the sheer sentimentalization of them.

Type in "nude male celebrity" into google. There's no shortage of them.
(links nsfw)
http://perezhilton.com/2013-12-22-dylan-sprouse-more-nude-pics-leaked-again
http://www.tmz.com/2012/08/21/prince-harry-naked-photos-nude-vegas-hotel-party/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/26/greg-oden-naked-pictures_n_437238.html
http://truenudecelebritiesmale.tumblr.com/
http://www.queerty.com/ass-appeal-queertys-10-favorite-male-nude-photo-leaks-20140904
http://majdad-celebs.tumblr.com/

And an article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thin...hy-dont-naked-pictures-of-men-get-leaked.html

Sep 5, 2014#155

Charlie Don't Surf

"men's issues are equivalent in scope and severity to women's issues in this area" you shout, and all I can reply is "lmfao"

Sep 5, 2014#156

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
"men's issues are equivalent in scope and severity to women's issues in this area" you shout, and all I can reply is "lmfao"

I don't think Tinwhistler was trying to say it's equivalent so much as give Bowielee some ... "reading" material.

Sep 5, 2014#157

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
"men's issues are equivalent in scope and severity to women's issues in this area" you shout, and all I can reply is "lmfao"

We'd prefer if you replied, "I'm leaving, and I'm never coming back." You contribute absolutely nothing of substance to any conversation you come crashing into. I for one am sick to death of your constant frothing at the mouth and poo flinging.

Sep 5, 2014#158

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
We'd prefer if you replied, "I'm leaving, and I'm never coming back." You contribute absolutely nothing of substance to any conversation you come crashing into. I for one am sick to death of your constant frothing at the mouth and poo flinging.

I disagree

Sep 5, 2014#159

Bowielee

Charlie, you lost any and all claims moral high ground when you decided to make a joke out of the recent suicide attempt.

You know what? Fuck this. Congratulations Charlie, you're now officially the first person to ever go on my ignore list. I just can't deal with your horrible toxic bullshit.

Sep 5, 2014#160

Charlie Don't Surf

why does everyone feel the need to TELL EVERYONE in a grand proclamation that I'm going on their ignore list

just do it, I don't give a shit

Sep 5, 2014#161

Krisken

Maybe because he wants to save you the trouble of replying to him in the future and being confused by the lack of replies?

It's not a grand proclamation, it's a courtesy "fuck off".

Sep 5, 2014#162

Covar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
"men's issues are equivalent in scope and severity to women's issues in this area" you shout, and all I can reply is "lmfao"

Yeah, what could Tinwhistler have been responding to? Wait a second I remember.

Charlie Don't Surf said:
also re: the fappening... you ever wonder why there's no celeb dick pics leaked yet??? hum.....

Sep 5, 2014#163

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
why does everyone feel the need to TELL EVERYONE in a grand proclamation that I'm going on their ignore list

I suppose it's better than making a thread about it.

--Patrick

Sep 5, 2014#164

Bowielee

I ended up having to take him off anyway. Rather than having blank posts when he's quoted, there is nothing, so the last few posts didn't make any sense.

Sep 5, 2014#165

Fun Size

Tinwhistler said:
Type in "nude male celebrity" into google. There's no shortage of them.
(links nsfw)
http://perezhilton.com/2013-12-22-dylan-sprouse-more-nude-pics-leaked-again
http://www.tmz.com/2012/08/21/prince-harry-naked-photos-nude-vegas-hotel-party/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/26/greg-oden-naked-pictures_n_437238.html
http://truenudecelebritiesmale.tumblr.com/
http://www.queerty.com/ass-appeal-queertys-10-favorite-male-nude-photo-leaks-20140904
http://majdad-celebs.tumblr.com/

And an article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thin...hy-dont-naked-pictures-of-men-get-leaked.html

This actually reminds me of one of my favorite jokes: when presented with the pictures of a nude Brad Pitt, my immediate response was "Well, where there's a Pitt there's a pendulum."

Sep 5, 2014#166

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I ended up having to take him off anyway. Rather than having blank posts when he's quoted, there is nothing, so the last few posts didn't make any sense.

It's a small comfort to me to know that the people who put me on ignore are somewhat inconvenienced/confused by people responding to me.

Sep 5, 2014#167

Bubble181

Charlie has his good moments, where he manages to discuss a topic like this with a lot of drive and zeal, but somewhat civil and intelligently. He also has moments - like this one - where he goes completely off the rails and fails to realize why people may not like him;

Charlie, you're a nice enough guy in a lot of ways and I'm fairly sure your heart's in the right place. However, you are utterly blind to some of your own failings, and thereby often end up seriously damaging the cause you're championing. Right now? You're in another of your dickwad periods. Perhaps there's a good reason for this, but you'll have to look to your own personal life and other issues for that. Here and now, we can only conclude you're behaving like an utter cock, to people and about people who most certainly didn't do anything to deserve it. For example, joking about [heavy emotional stuff] in a condescending manner, in a place where the victim/howeveryouwanttocallit is quite likely to see it? Base, vile, unwarranted personal attack on a good guy with some issues who needs our help. You've relied on this forum in the past and asked support; it's a shame that you're too much of asshole and/or wrapped up in your own problems to see that this sort of thing goes both ways. Not to mention, you're the first in line of defense when anyone makes a joke about some other painful issues (such as sexual abuse, coming out as a homosexual, etc). People [facing this particular issue] and/or those struggling with substance abuse, however, don't rate your special personal defense - apparently, because [the victim in this case]'s a straight white guy with none of your personal hang-ups, it's ok to joke about him dying or insult him and make his problems into a joke. There's no other way of saying "dick move".
Just for your personal pleasure, all male genital insults, no female ones. Hope you're happy.

Sep 5, 2014#168

tegid

I agree with most of what Bubble said. One comment though: perhaps it's for the best to edit out all direct references to the actual joke and the situation it alluded to.

Sep 5, 2014#169

DarkAudit

He was called out on the joke. The reply was, "fuck you." I think that says all that needs be said. Nothing of value to be lost if ties were permanently cut.

Sep 5, 2014#170

GasBandit

Much as the guy irritates me, the "he never adds anything of value to any discussion" thing used to be said about me a whole lot around here, too.

Sep 5, 2014#171

DarkAudit

GasBandit said:
Much as the guy irritates me, the "he never adds anything of value to any discussion" thing used to be said about me a whole lot around here, too.

Let me rephrase that, then, He has contributed less than nothing to most threads he has flung his poo at. The Welcome Back Bumble incident was just the most egregious example of late.

Sep 5, 2014#172

Espy

DarkAudit said:
Let me rephrase that, then, He has contributed less than nothing to most threads he has flung his poo at. The Welcome Back Bumble incident was just the most egregious example of late.

Believe me, what you are saying is something other people have said about a lot of people here over the years. And trust me, a lot of you guys should be glad we don't ban people that others here find irritating or annoying or the place would just be @Bumble and @Gusto having a tea party with @Cajungal.

Sep 5, 2014#173

ScytheRexx

But... I thought I was so vanilla that no one was irritated by me.

Anyways, back to the topic in a sort of weird way, I saw this video about the more recent scandal involving a Spider-Woman variant cover. I think it hit my opinions pretty well.

Now the cover is hideous if you ask me, those proportions, yuck, but almost every article on it is arguing more about the pose being sexualized rather then just really badly drawn. I am all for more respect between genders, but why does every argument have to shit all over the idea of sexuality?

Sep 5, 2014#174

Cajungal

What people don't want to follow our benign, cordial tea parties?

Sep 5, 2014#175

Mathias

The only major thing I find weird about that cover is that she's sporting a major wedgie. It just looks off how far apart her buttcheeks are.

Sep 5, 2014#176

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
why does everyone feel the need to TELL EVERYONE in a grand proclamation that I'm going on their ignore list

just do it, I don't give a shit

Just fuck off and go back to Tumblrland where you belong, Neutered Charlie.

Sep 5, 2014#177

Espy

I honestly, other than that one scientist who did that great "Lets break down the global warming debate into 4 sections video", hate EVERY SINGLE YOUTUBE OPINION VIDEO EVER. They all annoy me. It's always like watching shitty combinations of some dumb entertainment show and Fox News.

Sep 5, 2014#178

SpecialKO

I like this artist's critique of how to fix that cover in such a way as to be both less sexualized and better drawn while maintaining the general idea.

http://www.themarysue.com/controversial-spider-woman-covers-redrawn/

Sep 5, 2014#179

Ravenpoe

ScytheRexx said:
But... I thought I was so vanilla that no one was irritated by me.

Anyways, back to the topic in a sort of weird way, I saw this video about the more recent scandal involving a Spider-Woman variant cover. I think it hit my opinions pretty well.

Now the cover is hideous if you ask me, those proportions, yuck, but almost every article on it is arguing more about the pose being sexualized rather then just really badly drawn. I am all for more respect between genders, but why does every argument have to shit all over the idea of sexuality?

I've never really read a lot of Spider-Woman, but that cover never struck me as odd or sexual because I've read a shit-ton of spider-man, and recognized it as the "spider-pose." Spider-man is drawn in that same pose in nearly every single comic he's in.

Sep 5, 2014#180

Mathias

SpecialKO said:
I like this artist's critique of how to fix that cover in such a way as to be both less sexualized and better drawn while maintaining the general idea.

http://www.themarysue.com/controversial-spider-woman-covers-redrawn/

Boom. This nails it! It's not as pronounced as a Liefeld drawing, but the weight placement is off, which makes it feel like an unnatural pose.

Maddox is right too - mountains out of molehills. I don't know where he's pulling his ~47% female readers stats though.

Sep 5, 2014#181

blotsfan

http://comicsbeat.com/market-research-says-46-female-comic-fans/

Sep 5, 2014#182

ScytheRexx

SpecialKO said:
I like this artist's critique of how to fix that cover in such a way as to be both less sexualized and better drawn while maintaining the general idea.

http://www.themarysue.com/controversial-spider-woman-covers-redrawn/

I don't really even think it's that sexualized, not any more then I would consider spider-man crawling on all fours with his legs spread eagle which is what he does almost all the time. Though the fixes are a huge technical improvement over the abomination of that original perspective. I think my biggest problem is that SJWs spend more time raging over crap like that badly drawn variant cover rather then actually trying to improve the issues women actually face.

I mean look at this...

We freak out about Spider-Woman, a fictional character, in a spider pose because she looks like she has ass cheeks, all the while magazines like this have Emma Watson straddling a seat in what appears to be a foam girdle or some shit and none of them seem to care unless it's the new hot button topic trend. This is something nearly every woman is going to see in the checkout area of a store, while the only people looking at the comic are going to be comic fans. I don't know, maybe I have a bias involving this, but I don't think sexuality in fantasy is a bad thing, because unlike all our photoshop celebrities, people understand it's not real and often exaggerated.

Sep 5, 2014#183

SpecialKO

One reason why the cover has gotten so much blog attention is because a lot of the prominent female commentators in comics have a (very understandably) negative view of Greg Land, because of how much of his drawings of female characters appears to be ripped-off traces of glamor photos and porn...and then Marvel just straight up hired a guy who draws porn to draw the cover, which he did in such a way as it looks like he traced his own porn. It was almost like they were trying to piss commentators off.[DOUBLEPOST=1409941999,1409941744][/DOUBLEPOST]

ScytheRexx said:
all the while magazines like this have Emma Watson straddling a seat in what appears to be a foam girdle or some shit and none of them seem to care unless it's the new hot button topic trend.

Dude, people on the internet freak out a lot about photoshop fashion magazine culture. All of the comic stuff and Hawkeye Initiative stuff and all that is from the internet subculture that grew up around critiquing those magazine covers.

Sep 5, 2014#184

ScytheRexx

SpecialKO said:
Dude, people on the internet freak out a lot about photoshop fashion magazine culture. All of the comic stuff and Hawkeye Initiative stuff and all that is from the internet subculture that grew up around critiquing those magazine covers.

Fair enough, but I don't see that coming up as much these days. I even frequent tumblr a lot more then I should, and things like this always seem to be the new hot button issues involving sexualized imagery, rather then anything involving the culture of magazine images, celebrity, etc... It's just getting to me a bit more because I am a very sexual person, who understands the difference between fantasy and reality, and I just feel like some SJWs will never be happy until every female hero is walking around in a burqa. Any focus on the females chest in any way seems to become "flaunting her tits".

Sep 5, 2014#185

SpecialKO

ScytheRexx said:
I just feel like some SJWs will never be happy until every female hero is walking around in a burqa. Any focus on the females chest in any way seems to become "flaunting her tits".

While there is some like that, there's also a lot of folks out there who are simply trying to make the point (as themarysue folks did with that cover) that there is a difference between "sexy" and "sexualized".

Sep 5, 2014#186

Frank

ScytheRexx said:
But... I thought I was so vanilla that no one was irritated by me.

Anyways, back to the topic in a sort of weird way, I saw this video about the more recent scandal involving a Spider-Woman variant cover. I think it hit my opinions pretty well.

Now the cover is hideous if you ask me, those proportions, yuck, but almost every article on it is arguing more about the pose being sexualized rather then just really badly drawn. I am all for more respect between genders, but why does every argument have to shit all over the idea of sexuality?

Man, if you think the Manara variant cover is badly drawn, don't look at the Greg Land monstrosity that is the normal cover.

Sep 5, 2014#187

Espy

You know what I've noticed here and other places, is that people seem to be using the fringes of movements as the barometric for the discussion of it (which is what a lot of this conversation feels like). I cant imagine how healthy it would be for people to get off tumblr and youtube more. It's not always the *ideal* place to learn about things or have conversations.

Sep 5, 2014#188

drifter

ScytheRexx said:
I even frequent tumblr a lot more then I should, and things like this always seem to be the new hot button issues involving sexualized imagery, rather then anything involving the culture of magazine images, celebrity, etc...

I'm guessing that has to do with the Tumblr demographic, which seems to skew young. They're gonna care more about comic books and vidjer games than whatever supermarket rag their parents read.

Sep 5, 2014#189

GasBandit

Espy said:
You know what I've noticed here and other places, is that people seem to be using the fringes of movements as the barometric for the discussion of it (which is what a lot of this conversation feels like). I cant imagine how healthy it would be for people to get off tumblr and youtube more. It's not always the *ideal* place to learn about things or have conversations.

I consider this to be a conversational atmosphere fostered by media in general - quiet discussion doesn't sell, froth and vitriol does. And how much of that do we have to be inundated with before we consider it the standard for discourse?

Sep 5, 2014#190

ScytheRexx

drifter said:
I'm guessing that has to do with the Tumblr demographic, which seems to skew young. They're gonna care more about comic books and vidjer games than whatever supermarket rag their parents read.

Another fair point. My overall feed of information usually skews on the younger side of things, plus heavy into pop culture, so I am likely going to notice the discussions a lot more. I guess I just want a world in which I can enjoy the female form for being beautiful and sexy without it always turning into a argument about exploitation.

Sep 5, 2014#191

Bowielee

ScytheRexx said:
Fair enough, but I don't see that coming up as much these days. I even frequent tumblr a lot more then I should, and things like this always seem to be the new hot button issues involving sexualized imagery, rather then anything involving the culture of magazine images, celebrity, etc... It's just getting to me a bit more because I am a very sexual person, who understands the difference between fantasy and reality, and I just feel like some SJWs will never be happy until every female hero is walking around in a burqa. Any focus on the females chest in any way seems to become "flaunting her tits".

There are entire doctorate courses built around feminine oversexualization in all forms of media. You probably won't see them on you tube or tumblr though, because they're busy doing actual research to help enact social justice rather than ineffectually bitching about it on social media.

Sep 5, 2014#192

Charlie Don't Surf

the ironic thing is that literally the only thing I've ever used tumblr for is to objectify women

Sep 5, 2014#193

Necronic

Tumblr is fucking great for porn.

I feel this is an appropriate thread to talk about what I enjoy in porn.

Sep 5, 2014#194

GasBandit

There's little in this world I fear so much as anyone else learning what tags I've searched for on rule34.xxx and paheal.

Sep 5, 2014#195

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
There's little in this world I fear so much as anyone else learning what tags I've searched for on rule34.xxx and paheal.

Sep 5, 2014#196

Krisken

Espy said:
Believe me, what you are saying is something other people have said about a lot of people here over the years. And trust me, a lot of you guys should be glad we don't ban people that others here find irritating or annoying or the place would just be @Bumble and @Gusto having a tea party with @Cajungal.

Everyone has their douche moments, for sure. Plus, the rivalries which just can't seem to be resolved or ignored.

Seriously, @DarkAudit, you have to be careful. We're all living in glass houses on this one.

Sep 5, 2014#197

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
There's little in this world I fear so much as anyone else learning what tags I've searched for on rule34.xxx and paheal.

I worked developing film for Kodak for almost 3-1/2 years. The Internet holds few surprises for me.

--Patrick

Sep 5, 2014#198

ScytheRexx

Necronic said:
Tumblr is fucking great for porn. I feel this is an appropriate thread to talk about what I enjoy in porn.

Yes. It is. Yup.

Sep 5, 2014#199

Bubble181

Eh. I don't really see the "sexualised" problem (with this cover specifically - I do agree in general principle). Frankly, the "adjusted" version of that site is a lot sexier than the original, in my opinion. The problem simply seems to be that DC and Marvel hire comic artists who can't properly draw. It skews more negatively for females, especially in tight costumes (normal clothes tend to be ok

); I'm guessing because there are still less of them. But things like this, or Liefeld, aren't about "oh god the women are just wrong", they just aren't good at drawing basic anatomy. I don't know about you, but in general, bodies and poses that are, you know, theoretically possible hold an edge.[DOUBLEPOST=1409978625,1409978296][/DOUBLEPOST]

tegid said:
perhaps it's for the best to edit out all direct references to the actual joke and the situation it alluded to.

Well, yes, yes it is.

Sep 6, 2014#200

DarkAudit

Bubble181 said:
Eh. I don't really see the "sexualised" problem (with this cover specifically - I do agree in general principle). Frankly, the "adjusted" version of that site is a lot sexier than the original, in my opinion. The problem simply seems to be that DC and Marvel hire comic artists who can't properly draw. It skews more negatively for females, especially in tight costumes (normal clothes tend to be ok ); I'm guessing because there are still less of them. But things like this, or Liefeld, aren't about "oh god the women are just wrong", they just aren't good at drawing basic anatomy. I don't know about you, but in general, bodies and poses that are, you know, theoretically possible hold an edge.

Escher Girls is an excellent site for exposing the "(body part) doesn't work that way" of comic art.

Sep 8, 2014#201

fade

To be fair, comics are all about pushing anatomy, and Spider-MAN is a good example of a comic that is always full of impossible human contortions. Most of his spider-agility moves are fairly impossible, too. But they look possible. That Spider-Woman cover looks possible, too (except for the impossibly tight costume). The thing that stands out, as the Mary Sue pointed out, is that it's not quite the usual spider pose. It's adjusted so that she's "presenting". Spidey gets on all fours, but he doesn't stick his phanton vagina upwards.

Sep 8, 2014#202

Ravenpoe

fade said:
To be fair, comics are all about pushing anatomy, and Spider-MAN is a good example of a comic that is always full of impossible human contortions. Most of his spider-agility moves are fairly impossible, too. But they look possible. That Spider-Woman cover looks possible, too (except for the impossibly tight costume). The thing that stands out, as the Mary Sue pointed out, is that it's not quite the usual spider pose. It's adjusted so that she's "presenting". Spidey gets on all fours, but he doesn't stick his phanton vagina upwards.

He does tend to leap crotch-first, though.

If I were to critique the Spider-Woman cover (which I don't like, but not because I think it's pointlessly sexual, but rather I just don't like the art) it would be to ask wtf is wrong with her face.

Sep 8, 2014#203

Covar

Man it's like they got a ~~porn~~ erotic artist to draw the thing.

Sep 8, 2014#204

Bubble181

Ravenpoe said:
He does tend to leap crotch-first, though.

If I were to critique the Spider-Woman cover (which I don't like, but not because I think it's pointlessly sexual, but rather I just don't like the art) it would be to ask wtf is wrong with her face.

Hmm, now I'm imagining Spiderwoman in that pose,and I'm thinking "chest out! Crotch wide open! Pure sexploitation".

Sep 8, 2014#205

Tinwhistler

ScytheRexx said:
But... I thought I was so vanilla that no one was irritated by me.

Anyways, back to the topic in a sort of weird way, I saw this video about the more recent scandal involving a Spider-Woman variant cover. I think it hit my opinions pretty well.

Now the cover is hideous if you ask me, those proportions, yuck, but almost every article on it is arguing more about the pose being sexualized rather then just really badly drawn. I am all for more respect between genders, but why does every argument have to shit all over the idea of sexuality?

pretty much everything this.

Sep 8, 2014#206

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
Hmm, now I'm imagining Spiderwoman in that pose,and I'm thinking "chest out! Crotch wide open! Pure sexploitation".

--Patrick

Sep 8, 2014#207

GasBandit

You guys remember that one scene in Arachnophobia?

Sep 8, 2014#208

figmentPez

fade said:
The thing that stands out, as the Mary Sue pointed out, is that it's not quite the usual spider pose. It's adjusted so that she's "presenting". Spidey gets on all fours, but he doesn't stick his phanton vagina upwards.

Yeah, Spidey has been in a very similar pose on a lot of covers, complete with bad anatomy, but he keeps his butt down, he looks more spider-like:

The anatomy here is pretty messed-up, but his butt is flat with the rest of his body and his knees. He's a crouched spider.

Sep 8, 2014#209

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
You guys remember that one scene in Arachnophobia?

No. 'Cuz I haven't seen it.

--Patrick

Sep 8, 2014#210

Emrys

GasBandit said:
You guys remember that one scene in Arachnophobia?

I do now, thankyouverymuch.

Sep 8, 2014#211

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
No. 'Cuz I haven't seen it.

--Patrick

Man, I saw it as a kid. They marketed it as a comedy. IT WAS NOT A COMEDY.

Sep 8, 2014#212

Bowielee

Bubble181 said:
Hmm, now I'm imagining Spiderwoman in that pose,and I'm thinking "chest out! Crotch wide open! Pure sexploitation".

To counter this, notice how Spider-Man is absolutely anatomically incorrect in that he appears to have no penis. Apparently when men become superheroes, they get their junk chopped off. On the other hand, how often do you see very pronounced nipples and even camel toes on women in comics? Way more often than you'll see an outline or even hint of a dong, I'll bet.

Sep 8, 2014#213

Bowielee

stienman said:
Lots of superheroes have codpieces. Not all female superheroes sport cameltoes.

Codpiece =/= ken doll. Even a codpiece bulges a bit. But seeing as they're portraying male superheroes for power fantasy, not sexual attraction, you'll rarely see anything other than the ken doll crotch.

I never claimed that all female superheroes have cameltoes, I said that you're far more likely to see that than you would the outline of a dick, or even a codpiece. If we're going to desexualize the men, we should desexualize the women too. which many artists do. Many artists show women's breasts more like barbie dolls. But quite often, artists go out of their way to show nipple bulge. Also note that men rarely have nipple bulges either, despite men having nipples as well.

Sep 8, 2014#214

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Man, I saw it as a kid. They marketed it as a comedy. IT WAS NOT A COMEDY.

I remember that the spider delivered the envelopes at the Oscars*, though. They lowered it down on a web from the rafters to the presenter's podium.

--Patrick
*It might've been another awards show, but I'm guessing it was the Oscars.
(also, I'm waiting for someone to "get" my picture, above)

Sep 8, 2014#215

Dei

GasBandit said:
You guys remember that one scene in Arachnophobia?

I also saw that movie way too young, though not as young as you if you saw it when it came out.

IT HAD A COMEDY ACTOR IN IT! It is clearly a comedy!

"Her" is classified as a comedy through Redbox. Still no one knows what that category means.

Sep 8, 2014#216

GasBandit

Well, I guess I wasn't as young as I thought I was at the time, it came out in 1990 so I was 11. Still seemed a bit much in some parts.

Sep 8, 2014#217

Terrik

Sep 8, 2014#218

Hailey Knight

I'm not scared of spiders, but that movie was in no way a comedy. I cannot remember one funny thing aside from the exterminator, and the basement climax is pretty intense even by today's standards.

Yet even when played on TV, the TV spots would have silly music playing to advertise the movie being on that channel later in the evening. WTF?!

Sep 8, 2014#219

Bowielee

I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that Arachnophobia was WAY mismarketed.

Man... screw that movie. I had panic attacks going to the bathroom for weeks.

Sep 8, 2014#220

Hailey Knight

Perhaps the comedy was for the advertisers, laughing at people who went to the wrong kind of movie.

The bastards.

Sep 9, 2014#221

ThatNickGuy

Bit late to the discussion on Spider-Man's sexy poses, but I offer you The Oatmeal's take on it:

Sep 9, 2014#222

Bowielee

One point that I think is lost a lot is how different sexualizations of men and women are, based on what is attractive to either gender.

http://joephillips.com/

This guy has drawings that sexualize both female and male comic book characters, but you'll notice that the men are sexualized in different ways than their female counterparts. Where emphasis on the female characters is on sticking out their butts and boobs, the male characters are sexualized in a more subtle way (them mostly being shirtless aside). They are sexualized through their pose being relaxed and open and their gaze being inviting. This is what sexually attracts women, for the most part. Men who appear sensitive, but still manly. You have to admit that most male characters in comics are not drawn this way. They aren't supposed to be sexually appealing, they're ripped not for looks, but because that's part of the male power fantasy, which caters to the same base that the booby, butty girls are.

There are some male characters who have been sexually objectified on comics. Nightwing comes to mind. They love to show some Dick Greyson ass shots for whatever reason. They are the minority, though, and not generally the rule. This is where the inequality comes in.

I can't even say if it's right or it's wrong, just that it is. I'm not a fan of objectifying either gender, but to simply ignore their existence or to cry any sort of matriarchy because you don't want to believe that women are more sexualized than men is disingenuous at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

Sep 10, 2014#223

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Espy said:
the place would just be @Bumble and @Gusto having a tea party with @Cajungal.

I see nothing wrong with this

Sep 10, 2014#224

Ravenpoe

Bumble the Boy Wonder said:
I see nothing wrong with this

Can I be invited? I'll try not to tell anyone to fuck off...

Sep 10, 2014#225

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Ravenpoe said:
Can I be invited? I'll try not to tell anyone to fuck off...

I'll bring it up at the next meeting and put in a good word

Sep 10, 2014#226

Cajungal

New guy brings the finger sandwiches and cookies.

Sep 10, 2014#227

blotsfan

Cajungal said:
New guy brings the finger sandwiches and cookies.

But its the woman's job to make sandwiches and bake!

Sep 10, 2014#228

Bumble the Boy Wonder

blotsfan said:
But its the woman's job to make sandwiches and bake!

This is why you aren't invited to the tea party's @blotsfan

Sep 10, 2014#229

figmentPez

Cajungal said:
New guy brings the finger sandwiches and cookies.

Could I bring mini-kolaches and "lemon brownies" instead?

Sep 10, 2014#230

Ravenpoe

Bumble the Boy Wonder said:
This is why you aren't invited to the tea party's @blotsfan

The tea party has its own @blotsfan?

Sep 11, 2014#231

Celt Z

...Not invited?! Well, I'm going to make my own tea party, with blackjack! And hookers!
In fact, forget the tea!

(But not the cannoli. Always take the cannoli.)

Sep 11, 2014#232

mikerc

Celt Z said:
...Not invited?! Well, I'm going to make my own tea party, with blackjack! And hookers!
In fact, forget the tea!

(But not the cannoli. Always take the cannoli.)

Great party @Celt Z I mean yeah I lost all my clothes playing strip blackjack with @Bowielee & I think I caught a STD off of 1 of the hookers, but apart from that it's been much better than @Bumble's. I'm feeling a bit parched though, where's the tea? There's no tea? THERE'S NO TEA?! Screw you guys I'm going home!

Worst! Party! Ever!

Sep 11, 2014#233

Celt Z

Psssh. More cannoli for the rest of us.

Sep 11, 2014#234

Tinwhistler

if you had a guy leave, wouldn't it be less cannoli?
:rimshot:

Sep 11, 2014#235

PatrThom

Tinwhistler said:
if you had a guy leave, wouldn't it be less cannoli?

It would be more can'toli.

--Patrick

Sep 11, 2014#236

Bumble the Boy Wonder

You guys make it so fucking hard to find when you're talking about me by only tagging it as @bumble

Sep 11, 2014#237

Bowielee

Bumble the Boy Wonder said:
You guys make it so fucking hard to find when you're talking about me by only tagging it as @bumble

Quit having the longest name ever

Sep 11, 2014#238

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Bowielee said:
Quit having the longest name ever

I worked hard for that achievement, damnit!

Sep 11, 2014#239

GasBandit

Bumble the Boy Wonder said:
You guys make it so fucking hard to find when you're talking about me by only tagging it as @bumble

And there's no excuse because it tries to autocomplete @Bumble the Boy Wonder

Sep 11, 2014#240

Bowielee

Yeah, but you still have to type the whole thing out.

Sep 11, 2014#241

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Yeah, but you still have to type the whole thing out.

No I didn't. Maybe it's different on tapatalk? But on chrome or firefox on my PC soon as I start typing @-b-o-w it brings up a @Bowielee I can just click.

Sep 11, 2014#242

Bowielee

@GasBandit

GasBandit said:
No I didn't. Maybe it's different on tapatalk? But on chrome or firefox on my PC soon as I start typing @-b-o-w it brings up a @Bowielee I can just click.

Huh... that must be updated. It always used to have to still type it out.

Nov 2, 2014#243

figmentPez

Because men are expected to show their happiness in ways other than smiling.

As someone who has been chewed out for not having the proper amount of enthusiasm in his voice when responding to a friend announcing his engagement, I can say with certainty that men do get told to appear happy. Just because walking around with a smile isn't part of the standard for men, does not mean that we aren't expected to put on a front for the world, or that we don't get called out for failing to put on a socially acceptable mask. Asking women to smile is actually very similar to telling men to not cry. We expect both genders to fit certain expectations for appearance. Smiling is one for women, looking "strong" is one for men.

It is a problem that so many feel that they have the right to tell strangers, or even friends, what type of emotion that they should show at any given time, but that doesn't change the fact that it is often "normal" and done with good intentions. It's a social system that has been built up over time until it has reached the point of being a problem, but that doesn't change that people doing it are not necessarily aware that there's anything wrong with their request, because it is perfectly "normal" within their experience to expect people to fulfill the roles within society, even if those roles are ill-fitting.

For fucks sake. Pay attention in a Sociology class, people.

Nov 2, 2014#244

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
but that doesn't change that people doing it are not necessarily aware that there's anything wrong with their request, because it is perfectly "normal" within their experience to expect people to fulfill the roles within society, even if those roles are ill-fitting.

You can write off a host of behavioral problems with the excuse that the person isn't aware they're doing anything wrong.

Nov 2, 2014#245

figmentPez

Zero Esc said:
You can write off a host of behavioral problems with the excuse that the person isn't aware they're doing anything wrong.

True, but I wasn't writing it off. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" as the old saying goes. I point out the difference not to excuse the behavior, but to try to inform efforts at changing the behavior.

Consider the urban myth of "shake it like a Polaroid picture". I know that I, like most people, saw others flapping Polaroid prints around as they "dried", and thought that sped up the development. In reality, it did no such thing, and potentially blurred or otherwise harmed the resulting photo. Can you imagine how stupid it would be for Polaroid to try and correct that behavior by telling people that they were trying to destroy their own, just taken, photos with that shaking? People would stop listening the moment the Polaroid company said something false, and fairly insulting, about their motivation. Instead, Polaroid acknowledged that people loved their product, and wanted to see the photos as fast as possible, but also tried to inform people that the best way to get beautiful, quick, photos, was leave a print alone until it was ready.

See the parallel? Flapping a Polaroid picture around while it's developing has a real chance at blurring the photo, or causing other artifacts to crop up in development process (in fact, there are some interesting effects you can get by intentionally pressing on parts of the image), but most people did it with the good intention of getting to see their photos faster. Telling women to smile also has real potential to cause distress and other negative effects, but it's hard to say what motivates any given person, and it may well be done with the best of intentions. Neither shaking a Polaroid, nor telling a woman to smile, is a good way to get what's desired, but vilifying the motivation behind the act does nothing to help change the behavior.

Nov 2, 2014#246

Bowielee

figmentPez said:
Because men are expected to show their happiness in ways other than smiling.

As someone who has been chewed out for not having the proper amount of enthusiasm in his voice when responding to a friend announcing his engagement, I can say with certainty that men do get told to appear happy. Just because walking around with a smile isn't part of the standard for men, does not mean that we aren't expected to put on a front for the world, or that we don't get called out for failing to put on a socially acceptable mask. Asking women to smile is actually very similar to telling men to not cry. We expect both genders to fit certain expectations for appearance. Smiling is one for women, looking "strong" is one for men.

It is a problem that so many feel that they have the right to tell strangers, or even friends, what type of emotion that they should show at any given time, but that doesn't change the fact that it is often "normal" and done with good intentions. It's a social system that has been built up over time until it has reached the point of being a problem, but that doesn't change that people doing it are not necessarily aware that there's anything wrong with their request, because it is perfectly "normal" within their experience to expect people to fulfill the roles within society, even if those roles are ill-fitting.

For fucks sake. Pay attention in a Sociology class, people.

you do know that this is in reaction to the walking down the street video, right?

Are you saying that men are harassed to show their happiness by strangers on the street?

Nov 2, 2014#247

Cajungal

Bowielee said:
you do know that this is in reaction to the walking down the street video, right?

Are you saying that men are harassed to show their happiness by strangers on the street?

Hey, man! Square your shoulders and brood!

Nov 2, 2014#248

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
you do know that this is in reaction to the walking down the street video, right?

Are you saying that men are harassed to show their happiness by strangers on the street?

Actually, experienced the opposite.

"The F%#% you so happy about?"
I'm just expected to scowl all the time because ALPHAMALE. RORR.

Nov 2, 2014#249

Bowielee

Cajungal said:
Hey, man! Square your shoulders and brood!

Yeah, why don't you look more stoic, baby?

Nov 2, 2014#250

figmentPez

Bowielee said:
you do know that this is in reaction to the walking down the street video, right?

Are you saying that men are harassed to show their happiness by strangers on the street?

Well, that's because men aren't supposed to show their happiness, at least not without reason.* Men are generally discouraged from showing much emotion at all. If a man walks down the street with a neutral expression, he's fitting in the socially expected role. However, I have had people tell me to cheer up if I was looking too depressed. Though, admittedly, that happened when I was younger, and still was (or looked like) a child.

*and when there is reason, they are expected to. I bet if a man walked down a line of tailgaters, or around a stadium after a win, and wasn't acting boisterous, he would have people telling him to celebrate. Because in that type of situation, the social expectation switches so that men are expected to be outwardly showing their excitement, and support of their team. Anyone who isn't is either ruining the mood, or must be a supporter of a rival, and will quite possibly get called out on it.

Nov 2, 2014#251

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
True, but I wasn't writing it off. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" as the old saying goes. I point out the difference not to excuse the behavior, but to try to inform efforts at changing the behavior.

Consider the urban myth of "shake it like a Polaroid picture". I know that I, like most people, saw others flapping Polaroid prints around as they "dried", and thought that sped up the development. In reality, it did no such thing, and potentially blurred or otherwise harmed the resulting photo. Can you imagine how stupid it would be for Polaroid to try and correct that behavior by telling people that they were trying to destroy their own, just taken, photos with that shaking? People would stop listening the moment the Polaroid company said something false, and fairly insulting, about their motivation. Instead, Polaroid acknowledged that people loved their product, and wanted to see the photos as fast as possible, but also tried to inform people that the best way to get beautiful, quick, photos, was leave a print alone until it was ready.

See the parallel? Flapping a Polaroid picture around while it's developing has a real chance at blurring the photo, or causing other artifacts to crop up in development process (in fact, there are some interesting effects you can get by intentionally pressing on parts of the image), but most people did it with the good intention of getting to see their photos faster. Telling women to smile also has real potential to cause distress and other negative effects, but it's hard to say what motivates any given person, and it may well be done with the best of intentions. Neither shaking a Polaroid, nor telling a woman to smile, is a good way to get what's desired, but vilifying the motivation behind the act does nothing to help change the behavior.

I see what you mean, and taken out of exact context this makes sense. However, the example the tweet refers to is some guy calling to a woman walking by with the words of "Hey baby, how about a smile?" Smiling more can actually be beneficial, but that's not what's going on in that context. It's so that a smile is given to him, a gift to him, if you will, i.e. a less crass "show us your tits." That's a motivation we can condemn without ambiguity.

GasBandit said:
Actually, experienced the opposite.

"The F%#% you so happy about?"
I'm just expected to scowl all the time because ALPHAMALE. RORR.

I've gotten this too. I said "because I'm not you." As an adult now I would've ignored the person and moved on, but I was 19 and stupid.

Nov 2, 2014#252

figmentPez

Zero Esc said:
I see what you mean, and taken out of exact context this makes sense. However, the example the tweet refers to is some guy calling to a woman walking by with the words of "Hey baby, how about a smile?" Smiling more can actually be beneficial, but that's not what's going on in that context. It's so that a smile is given to him, a gift to him, if you will, i.e. a less crass "show us your tits." That's a motivation we can condemn without ambiguity.

Is that the exact context? Because I've heard a lot of women complaining about being told to smile, and while sometimes it is as crass as you quote, other times it's just a general statement of "you should smile", nothing necessarily personal about it. Sometimes it's easy to see motivation, other times it's not.

Nov 2, 2014#253

GasBandit

Let me tell you guys, there's a lady I want to tell to smile at work ALL the time. She has got the worst case of bitchy resting face I've ever seen.

I've honestly avoided her as much as I can because I can't figure out if she's really a condescending ass or if it's just her resting face, and I have no wish to pursue the issue and cause workplace drama.

Nov 2, 2014#254

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
Is that the exact context? Because I've heard a lot of women complaining about being told to smile, and while sometimes it is as crass as you quote, other times it's just a general statement of "you should smile", nothing necessarily personal about it. Sometimes it's easy to see motivation, other times it's not.

In this instance for the video that tweet is responding to, yes.

But I know the other thing you're talking about, and that's really not sexual harassment, I don't know if it's even harassment because as I said in Gasbandit's political thread, I think "being spoken to when you don't want to be spoken to" is too broad a definition for harassment. I think it's people can't mind their own business. "You should smile" may have the best intentions, but it's in the same busybody time of crap as telling people what they should do with their clothes, their hair, their lifestyle, their families, etc. Yeah, sometimes that's fine from friends and family, but people have a habit of just butting in on others where they have no place. I forgot which thread it was in, but Wasabi and Dei were talking about people who feel obligated to spew bullshit parenting advice at anyone they see holding a baby or young child. I don't blame those who end up at the opposite end of the politeness spectrum and just start telling people to fuck off.

I hope that made sense.

Nov 2, 2014#255

Bowielee

Context is king.

Nov 2, 2014#256

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
Context is non-gender specific primary leader of a monarchy.

Fixed.

Nov 2, 2014#257

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't really like the term "resting bitch face"

also again asking @figmentPez to maybe take a step back or think or something? You're hilariously off-base. Why compare "Smile more" to "don't cry"? They're both wrong. One isn't "more wrong" than the other, but one sure as hell is more prevalent and more damaging/hurtful.

also "you should smile more" is really problematic even if it's super polite. In fact, it almost always is super polite and often from old dudes. It feels kind of silly to explain why it's more of an issue than a random guy asking you "what time is it?" or directions or saying "pretty weather we're having lately", etc.

Nov 2, 2014#258

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I don't really like the term "resting bitch face"

And I don't like this zit I just got on the outside of my elbow this weekend from eating all the candy that trick or treaters didn't come get, but I guess we both just get to deal with some facts of life.

Nov 2, 2014#259

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
And I don't like this zit I just got on the outside of my elbow this weekend from eating all the candy that trick or treaters didn't come get, but I guess we both just get to deal with some facts of life.

I refuse to consider it a "fact of life" that being demeaned by other people's language is the default

also don't you see the irony that your situation has a cause and effect, and the other one is just from being a woman?

Nov 2, 2014#260

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
also again asking @figmentPez to maybe take a step back or think or something? You're hilariously off-base. Why compare "Smile more" to "don't cry"? They're both wrong. One isn't "more wrong" than the other, but one sure as hell is more prevalent and more damaging/hurtful.

They seem equally prevalent to me, if we're talking about the messages from society as a whole, and not talking about specific literal instances where people say those exact words. Both are equally damaging and hurtful. Telling women that they should generally appear smiling and happy as they go about everyday life, is just as harmful as telling men that they should generally refrain from showing emotion.

also "you should smile more" is really problematic even if it's super polite. In fact, it almost always is super polite and often from old dudes. It feels kind of silly to explain why it's more of an issue than a random guy asking you "what time is it?" or directions or saying "pretty weather we're having lately", etc.

Yes, it is problematic. I said that. Multiple times. My analogy to Polaroid film was centered around the idea that it's well-intentioned harm.

Nov 2, 2014#261

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I refuse to consider it a "fact of life" that being demeaned by other people's language is the default

Don't deal with people much, do ya.

Nov 3, 2014#262

Tress

As a guy, I have had random women cone up to me and tell me to smile more. It really is obnoxious. It's only happened twice in my life, so I can see how annoying/invasive/obnoxious it would feel if it happened 100x more in my life.

Nov 3, 2014#263

ScytheRexx

It really comes down to intention and how it's presented. The problem with "You should smile more" is that it's more of a demand then anything. No one should "demand" that another person feel a certain way or present themselves a certain way, more so when that person is just a random guy/girl on the street. It's a selfish comment.

However, I don't think those guys that said "Have a nice day." were harassing anyone. I think that is a stretch.

Nov 3, 2014#264

Tress

Also, in college one of my professors was young and very attractive. She worked hard, knew what she was talking about, and I took her as seriously as I would take any other professor. Other guys in my class did not, and it was disgusting. It all came to a head when, after a test, one of the biggest assholes in my class turned in his paper with a sticky note attached. Care to guess what it said?

"You should smile more, you look pretty."

He said that. To his no-nonsense, not-in-the-mood professor.

The dipshit did not understand why she reported him and he got in a ton of trouble. In his mind he genuinely didn't think he did anything wrong. And that's the root of the problem.

Nov 3, 2014#265

LittleSin

Unsolicited comments from stranger men is the worst. Even compliments. If you don't respond or acknowledge the comment they start thinking you're a bitch or gay or whatever. If you respond, though, its worst because they think thats an invitation to touch you or continue the conversation.

It's obnoxious and certainly isn't done with a woman's interest in mind. They just feel entitled to female attention and respond poorly when their demands for a smile or their 'well meaning' compliment isn't received.

Really, it's so hard ot explain to dudes because most dudes love it when girls compliment them out of the blue!

Nov 3, 2014#266

Chad Sexington

There's an element of the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" when someone asserts their comment is well-meaning. All it really says is, "I didn't consider the other person's feelings, and they should be mind-readers."

Nov 3, 2014#267

Hailey Knight

ScytheRexx said:
However, I don't think those guys that said "Have a nice day." were harassing anyone. I think that is a stretch.

Unless you're that old guy who hands out cards explaining to people why they should say "I hope you have a nice day" instead of "have a nice day." I wish I was making that up.

LittleSin said:
Unsolicited comments from stranger men is the worst. Even compliments. If you don't respond or acknowledge the comment they start thinking you're a bitch or gay or whatever. If you respond, though, its worst because they think thats an invitation to touch you or continue the conversation.

It's obnoxious and certainly isn't done with a woman's interest in mind. They just feel entitled to female attention and respond poorly when their demands for a smile or their 'well meaning' compliment isn't received.

Really, it's so hard ot explain to dudes because most dudes love it when girls compliment them out of the blue!

This is why the few times I've complimented a woman I didn't know, usually her hat or if her hair is colored purple or something, I've done it as I was leaving the area/transit so there was no pressure. (Hell, the only pressure in one instance was my friend with me; she insisted that the other woman would like to hear I thought her hat was cool.)

But these days I just don't anymore. There's really no telling if such a comment is going to be felt as an intrusion or make their day, and I'd rather not contribute to the already negative experience it is to use public transportation as a woman.

Nov 3, 2014#268

sixpackshaker

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/02/n...banned-from-chatting-up-white-feminist-women/

Now, The New York Times wants to know if a law should shield white feminist women by preventing black and Hispanic men from speaking to them, and possibly offending their tender sensibilities.

Nov 4, 2014#269

LittleSin

sixpackshaker said:
http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/02/n...banned-from-chatting-up-white-feminist-women/

Talk about missing the point.

There is different between being yelled at to "smile baby!" while walking down the street and someone coming up to you in a cafe or at the mall and saying "Hi. I just wanted you to know that I LOVE your hair. Have a nice day!"

One is a demand made upon a woman because the man feels like they should be happy little puppets, especially now that He has entered the equation. The other is a polite compliment that makes no demands on the woman and leave the response up to her.

Nov 4, 2014#270

Hailey Knight

LittleSin said:
Talk about missing the point.

There is different between being yelled at to "smile baby!" while walking down the street and someone coming up to you in a cafe or at the mall and saying "Hi. I just wanted you to know that I LOVE your hair. Have a nice day!"

One is a demand made upon a woman because the man feels like they should be happy little puppets, especially now that He has entered the equation. The other is a polite compliment that makes no demands on the woman and leave the response up to her.

But Tumblr doesn't make it seem like there's a difference and for an already anxious person like me, it's been made to seem like it's better to say nothing at all to anyone ever.

I think you make a good point though, and the reason there's an issue is because at question, do men have the restraint to say "nice pants" without adding "they'd look nicer on my floor"?*

*funny enough, the first time I heard that line was from one girl to another--they were dating a week later.

Nov 4, 2014#271

LittleSin

Zero Esc said:
But Tumblr doesn't make it seem like there's a difference and for an already anxious person like me, it's been made to seem like it's better to say nothing at all to anyone ever.

I think you make a good point though, and the reason there's an issue is because at question, do men have the restraint to say "nice pants" without adding "they'd look nicer on my floor"?*

*funny enough, the first time I heard that line was from one girl to another--they were dating a week later.

Tumblr is a good place to learn that a social issue may exist but it's not a great place to determine what is actually acceptable because they tend to...insulate and reassure themselves they are right. I know some on tumblr would be like "SCUM!" but I think most tumblr feminists would agree that there is a stark difference between street harassment and a genuine compliment.

I find the really nutter SJW's on tumblr to be people in their mid teens to very early twenties who have no concept of the real world yet and are just trying to find a 'look at me' niche.

Nov 4, 2014#272

Mathias

In rural settings I smile and say hello to everyone I pass. In urban settings - nope!

Nov 4, 2014#273

Terrik

I just pretend Tumblr doesn't even exist.

Nov 4, 2014#274

Celt Z

In any setting (urban or otherwise), I find it a good rule of thumb that if someone is making eye contact, it's okay to smile, nod, say "Hi"; a small acknowledgment isn't out of the question. However, if the person isn't making eye contact or their body language is projecting that are in their own train of thought, it is rude and, depending on how you do it, possibly harassing to make them acknowledge you. The exception to this being if you know the person or if they are about to injure you or themselves (like walking into traffic). I think this applies to either gender.[DOUBLEPOST=1415105567,1415105467][/DOUBLEPOST]

Terrik said:
I just pretend Tumblr doesn't even exist.

I've never actually used Tumblr. I don't think I'm missing much.

Nov 4, 2014#275

Covar

Celt Z said:
I've never actually used Tumblr. I don't think I'm missing much.

Nov 4, 2014#276

Krisken

I have had no problem with Tumblr. I don't know who you people are following to be bombarded with wackadoos.[DOUBLEPOST=1415107381,1415106925][/DOUBLEPOST]

Nov 4, 2014#277

GasBandit

I live in Texas, and not in Austin or Houston or the DFW Metroplex. Therefore, almost everybody I pass greets me and I greet them. We even wave at each other while driving, regardless if we know who it is or not.

Nov 4, 2014#278

GasBandit

Does this go here?

Nov 4, 2014#279

PatrThom

Late to the party, but...

--Patrick

Nov 4, 2014#280

Hailey Knight

Nov 5, 2014#281

CrimsonSoul

I tell everyone with hair color that's purple pink blue etc that it's awesome and then I ask for a high five...

Nov 5, 2014#282

Chad Sexington

CrimsonSoul said:
I tell everyone with hair color that's purple pink blue etc that it's awesome and then I ask for a high five...

I was going to make some sort of joke about how you'd have a calloused hand if you worked at a junior high, but it just sounds like I'm calling you a ephebophile.

Nov 5, 2014#283

LittleSin

I saw this pass my facebook feed and thought is belonged here.

Nov 5, 2014#284

Terrik

Is that unnaturally small or is it just me?

Nov 5, 2014#285

LittleSin

Damn! It is!

It's big on my computer!

Nov 5, 2014#286

PatrThom

LittleSin said:
It's big on my computer!

...

--Patrick

Nov 5, 2014#287

LittleSin

PatrThom said:
...

--Patrick

Eh?

Nov 5, 2014#288

Charlie Don't Surf

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's literally what I posted in the OP

Nov 5, 2014#289

PatrThom

LittleSin said:
Eh?

"That's what she said."
I thought it was obvious.

--Patrick

Nov 5, 2014#290

LittleSin

Charlie Don't Surf said:
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's literally what I posted in the OP

Really? I sorta skipped to the last few pages because I figured the direction of conversation would have changed since the beginning!

Sorry![DOUBLEPOST=1415239520,1415239473][/DOUBLEPOST]

PatrThom said:
"That's what she said."
I thought it was obvious.

--Patrick

I thought it might have been but, at the same time, I did not want to accuse you of being dirty minded.

Nov 5, 2014#291

PatrThom

LittleSin said:
I did not want to accuse you of being dirty minded.

Worry not. I feel confident in saying I'm one of the dirtiest-minded people on this board. I try to allow my mind the freedom to roam wherever it might want to go. The benefits are amazing.
However, I treat that realm like its own pocket dimension with its own rules: Since there is no guarantee that what is permitted in that dimension will be appropriate in this one (and often isn't!), I maintain their disconnect.
The devil who sits on my shoulder comes up with some absolutely astounding ideas (ideas I wouldn't hear if I was always automatically squelching him), but of course it's entirely up to me whether any of them get implemented, and I'm just as certain as before that I'm one of the most ethical people on this board, too.

--Patrick

Nov 7, 2014#292

GasBandit

Writer and comedian Elon James White had a simple question in response to the Walking in NYC as a Woman video: What if dudes started greeting each other that way? I mean, it's not weird or sexual if dudes do that with one another like they do to women, right? Thus, #DudesGreetingDudes was born.

Nov 7, 2014#293

GasBandit

The experiment was repeated in New Zealand, to see how it was different.

Nov 7, 2014#294

Bowielee

Nov 9, 2014#295

Hailey Knight

Manchester police set up this:

Good going, UK. You're ahead of us on gay marriage, but on this stuff, you're right down in the pits with us.

Nov 9, 2014#296

figmentPez

Zero Esc said:
Manchester police set up this:

Good going, UK. You're ahead of us on gay marriage, but on this stuff, you're right down in the pits with us.

If it weren't for the visible thong, I would have thought that was a theft prevention poster.* Keeping your iPod and wallet poking out of your purse like that is a pretty foolish thing to do if you're walking through a crowd.

*According to Greater Manchester Police, it is a theft prevention poster:

Greater Manchester Police responded to this controversy with a statement to The Mancunion. “This poster was produced in 2007 by GMP as part of a campaign to tackle robberies being committed against students.
“It has nothing to do with a publicity campaign on rape. The strapline ‘Keep your assets out of sight’ was simply a reminder to students not to flaunt valuables such as mobile phones, iPods and cameras.
“The poster is no longer printed or distributed, and it is seven years since they were last sent out. The artwork was approved by the head of PR at the time, and this particular style was chosen as it was thought it would appeal to students and get their attention. It is worth noting that we received no negative feedback at the time these were produced.”

It's a poster from seven years ago.

Nov 9, 2014#297

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
If it weren't for the visible thong, I would have thought that was a theft prevention poster.* Keeping your iPod and wallet poking out of your purse like that is a pretty foolish thing to do if you're walking through a crowd.

*According to Greater Manchester Police, it is a theft prevention poster:

It's a poster from seven years ago.

The thong is what made me jump. Thanks for fact checking.

Nov 9, 2014#298

PatrThom

With all that equipment visible, I thought it was a theft prevention poster, too.
People always talk about how having those distinctive white earbuds advertises to the world I HAVE AN EXPENSIVE DEVICE PLEASE ROB ME.

--Patrick

Nov 9, 2014#299

Hailey Knight

PatrThom said:
With all that equipment visible, I thought it was a theft prevention poster, too.
People always talk about how having those distinctive white earbuds advertises to the world I HAVE AN EXPENSIVE DEVICE PLEASE ROB ME.

--Patrick

That's funny, because I would give those away since they came free with so many things (including real headphones). My little cousins used to attach them to $25 iPod Shuffles.

Nov 11, 2014#300

GasBandit

Nov 11, 2014#301

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:

That's funny. I think every one of my wives has told me that taking out the trash is a "man's job"

Nov 11, 2014#302

GasBandit

Tinwhistler said:
That's funny. I think everyone one of my wives has told me that taking out the trash is a "man's job"

How did that Cyanide and Happiness comic go?

"Why don't you be a big strong man and move my couch?"
"Why don't YOU be a small, weak woman and suck my dick? As long as we're all being sexist?"

Nov 11, 2014#303

Bowielee

I'd go on a tirade about how one image is one of power that people would aspire to and the other is a whore, but you've all heard it before.

Nov 11, 2014#304

Dave

Nov 11, 2014#305

GasBandit

I know I certainly always aspired as a young lad to be the powerful man who performs menial physical labor.

Nov 14, 2014#306

GasBandit

We can land a spacecraft on a comet, but a man's shirt has become the big news story here on Earth.

Physicist Matt Taylor was criticized this week for wearing a shirt with scantily-clad women and guns on it during a livestreamed post-landing interview about the Rosetta Mission, deemed sexist and innaporpriate by many people, particularly women in science. And critiques on Twitter voiced their complaints with #ShirtStorm and #ShirtGate.

But in a Google Hangout Friday with updates on the mission, a teary-eyed Taylor in a very neutral blue hoodie, apologized for the shirt.

"I made a big mistake, and I offended many people," he said. "And I'm very sorry about this."

Meanwhile on said comet, the Philae lander sent back its first image from the comet Thursday, and it has begun drilling in order to reposition itself into the sunlight. But this maneuver could also make Philae do a cartwheel and possible put an abrupt end to the mission.

GB's take - I want that shirt. I had a shirt like that, but it wasn't nearly that awesome. This is an awesome shirt.

Nov 14, 2014#307

Terrik

All that over a shirt. How thin-skinned people have become.

Nov 14, 2014#308

Dave

I didn't notice the shirt until it was pointed out and I watched the interview.

Nov 14, 2014#309

ScytheRexx

Dave said:
I didn't notice the shirt until it was pointed out and I watched the interview.

In the mind of the people having the uproar over the shirt, you are part of the problem.

Nov 14, 2014#310

tegid

I don't see that... The problem would be to not see the sexism in an image, not not noticing the image itself

Nov 14, 2014#311

GasBandit

tegid said:
I don't see that... The problem would be to not see the sexism in an image, not not noticing the image itself

OMG Check your privilege, shitlord!

Nov 14, 2014#312

Bowielee

stienman said:
A man wears a shirt someone close to him made as a gift to a PR thing, and the shirt depicts scantily clad women (with guns). <-- SEXISM

Celebrities are wearing less and less in front cover non-adult magazines to "throw off the shackles society places on our bodies". <-- ANTI-SEXISM

So, as we can see, this is a case where a marginalized group can engage in something that empowers them, but if that is engaged by those outside the group it demeans them.

See also: Yankee doodle, the n word, etc.

This is the falsest of false equivalencies.

The guy is a professional at a professional conference. See the later discussion about professionalism when dealing with people at conferences.

Nov 14, 2014#313

GasBandit

The first thing I noticed about all these ESA guys is they all seem to have huge sleeve tattoos.

Nov 14, 2014#314

GasBandit

Nov 14, 2014#315

PatrThom

stienman said:
Celebrities are wearing less and less in front cover non-adult magazines to "throw off the shackles society places on our bodies". <-- ANTI-SEXISM

You may have said that in jest, but gaze upon this and try to remember that this is not a porn magazine.

rs_634x862-141008083731-634.Sofia-Vergara-Shape-magazine.jl.100814.jpg

--Patrick

Nov 14, 2014#316

GasBandit

GasBandit said:
The first thing I noticed about all these ESA guys is they all seem to have huge sleeve tattoos.

Also it turns out that his wife made that shirt for him.

Nov 14, 2014#317

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
Also it turns out that his wife made that shirt for him.

Patriarchy!

Nov 14, 2014#318

Charlie Don't Surf

It's sexist of you to think that women can't be tools of the patriarchy just like everyone else.

also my first offense upon seeing that shirt was the garish color palette and how gauche button up shirts with short sleeves are.

also lmao at how mad steinman gets when a woman is proud of her sexuality

edit: just saw these tweets with which I agree

Nov 14, 2014#319

GasBandit

Dear god. She's gone full circle, and has climbed up her own ass and is feminista-tizing herself.

Nov 14, 2014#320

sixpackshaker

A man should be free to wear what he wants without ridicule.

Nov 14, 2014#321

DarkAudit

sixpackshaker said:
A man should be free to wear what he wants without ridicule.

It's the new reality of the 2014 internet. No one is allowed to do ANYTHING without ridicule

And the shitstorm in response to that ridicule.

Nov 14, 2014#322

Bowielee

It still boggles my mind that some of you think boob shirts are work appropriate attire. Imagine a woman wearing a shirt covered in dicks to work.

Nov 14, 2014#323

CrimsonSoul

I mean women can wear clothes to work that shows off most of their boobs why can't I wear pants that shows off most of my balls?

Nov 14, 2014#324

Bowielee

CrimsonSoul said:
I mean women can wear clothes to work that shows off most of their boobs why can't I wear pants that shows off most of my balls?

I'm fairly certain that's not usually acceptable, but nice try.

Nov 14, 2014#325

Charlie Don't Surf

sixpackshaker said:
A man should be free to wear what he wants without ridicule.

AND SO SHOULD WOMEN yet look at all the slut-shaming backlash at Kim Kardashian and the suggestion that rape victims' clothing factors into their consent in the matter

Nov 14, 2014#326

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I'm fairly certain that's not usually acceptable, but nice try.

I'm fairly certain you're fooling yourself. Cleavage at work is pretty darn common, and miles more acceptable than any testicular exposure whatsoever.

Nov 14, 2014#327

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
I'm fairly certain you're fooling yourself. Cleavage at work is pretty darn common, and miles more acceptable than any testicular exposure whatsoever.

It's only acceptable to the extent objectification of women is acceptable. If men were objectified to the same degree as women, there would be special cock sleeves in every pair of pants that showed women just how big every guy's dick was. And most shirts would expose a man's shoulder line and/or collarbone area as well. Not even to mention how tight the pants would fit around a guy's butt.

Nov 14, 2014#328

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
I'm fairly certain you're fooling yourself. Cleavage at work is pretty darn common, and miles more acceptable than any testicular exposure whatsoever.

Am I the only one who doesn't work at Hooters?

Nov 14, 2014#329

Charlie Don't Surf

Bowielee said:
Am I the only one who doesn't work at Hooters?

My old job, the only person that dressed above a PG rating was one of the partners, but she uh, kind of owned the place so.

Nov 14, 2014#330

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
My old job, the only person that dressed above a PG rating was one of the partners, but she uh, kind of owned the place so.

So... explain to me how the owner of a business is "objectified" by dressing how she wants because she can get away with it because she's the boss. As I understand it, objectification denotes a loss of power, a loss of personhood. This seems to be an expression of power and control.

Nov 15, 2014#331

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
So... explain to me how the owner of a business is "objectified" by dressing how she wants because she can get away with it because she's the boss. As I understand it, objectification denotes a loss of power, a loss of personhood. This seems to be an expression of power and control.

I think it's two different conversations. I was just talking about my experience in an office there to BowieLee, not the objectification part toward you.

Nov 15, 2014#332

LittleSin

Dudes. Can you not seriously see how that shirt is kinda damaging? it can be alienating to any woman who wants to enter the sciences?

How Imagine you are a girl who is really into space exploration. You have your heart set on being in NASA one day, being a respected scientist or whatever. Then you see this man wearing this shirt for all the world to see while he talks about something you love. You may not even truly realize what you are seeing but you are left with a lingering, subliminal impression that women aren't well respected in the science community.

You get older and find it hard to get help with you math and science lessons because your teachers spend more time tutoring these subjects to the boys compared to the girls because they have a brighter future in these fields. You are rarely taught about important women in any of you courses. Your peers majje fun of you because of your love for science while a boy with the same interest is never rely questioned. In fact, they think he's pretty smart, albeit nerdy. You are just a shut in and 'no fun'.

You push on through and get to university. Here you are your own again because most of your class mates are male. They constantly try to 'flirt' with you but you don't feel flattered as their flirting often works under the assumption that they need to save you. In group work you are talked over and you are constantly apologizing for voicing your thoughts because you are made to feel like you are interrupting those who matter. Your professors seems to treat you differently, either with kindness that gains resentment from your classmates or with a cold, disdain that makes you uncomfortable.

You make it through, get hired in NASA...and, while the people there are well meaning, you find it to be a boys club. You have to work twice as hard as you male colleagues to be noticed. In some offices there are posters of women wearing barely anything at all. You are gently made of fun of every day for not being a 'real lady'.

Ican ramble on forever. Sciences are already hard for girls to get into because of the perception they are not welcome there. Wearing clothing like that does NOTHING to help that.

Nov 15, 2014#333

Celt Z

Unfortunately, what @LittleSin saying isn't uncommon, for women in STEM fields and a lot of male-dominated fields, like animation. It has gotten better, but I have experienced a similar scenario at college and even going to some studios post-college. It wasn't all the guys, but there were still a few who thought that kind of behavior was okay, and the majority of guys, while not participating, didn't say there was anything wrong with the behavior, either, which just adds to the problem. (I spent an entire 8-hour drive to Ottawa with a classmate repeatedly harassing me, despite a few people telling him to shut up.)

I really don't think the guy in the video was intending to make anyone uncomfortable, but it's really not an appropriate shirt to wear in the workplace in general. I'm not going to be like some people I've seen, saying he should never own a shirt like that in the first place, but it's really more of a outside-of-work shirt.

Nov 15, 2014#334

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
AND SO SHOULD WOMEN yet look at all the slut-shaming backlash at Kim Kardashian and the suggestion that rape victims' clothing factors into their consent in the matter

You mad bro?

Nov 15, 2014#335

Charlie Don't Surf

sixpackshaker said:
You mad bro?

yeah

Nov 15, 2014#336

Cajungal

Just speaking a little to what @LittleSin said, it's kind of shocking how many *teachers* still cling to the "english/lit=girls, math/science=boys" myth.

I had an interesting conversation with my two accelerated math students yesterday--one boy and one girl. They asked if a contest they were doing had a boy and girl winner, to make it fair. I had to explain why this was not necessary.

Nov 15, 2014#337

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
yeah

Nov 15, 2014#338

GasBandit

I'm a little miffed myself that one of the greatest scientific achievements of humankind has been overshadowed by a shirt a guy's wife made him.

Nov 15, 2014#339

Hailey Knight

Nov 15, 2014#340

Krisken

Smart enough to land a rover on a comet. Not smart enough not to wear an inappropriate shirt to work.

Nov 15, 2014#341

Cajungal

Now I'm just mad that there's no pie.

Nov 15, 2014#342

Hailey Knight

Cajungal said:
Now I'm just mad that there's no pie.

I bought a cherry pie at the grocery store, so I felt comfortable posting that without just being a pie poser.

Nov 15, 2014#343

GasBandit

I don't even like pie. (and no that's not a metaphor)

Nov 15, 2014#344

GasBandit

Turns out there's a hunky dudes version of the shirt, too. Equality, huzzah!

Nov 15, 2014#345

Cajungal

The guy with no vest looks creepily young. Like, I don't feel right looking at that picture.

Nov 15, 2014#346

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
Turns out there's a hunky dudes version of the shirt, too. Equality, huzzah!

I'm gonna go ahead and make an educated guess that that shirt is marketed to gay men, not women.

Nov 15, 2014#347

Krisken

I'd have to agree. The 'hunky' series for ladies would probably only be in pajama form.

Nov 15, 2014#348

Celt Z

Cajungal said:
The guy with no vest looks creepily young. Like, I don't feel right looking at that picture.

I hate to say this, but do they kinda look like Edward and Jacob,or is that just my phone? Also, going to agree with Bowielee on the target audience.

Nov 15, 2014#349

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I'm gonna go ahead and make an educated guess that that shirt is marketed to gay men, not women.

So what would a gaudy hawaiian shirt that appeals to women feature on it?

Nov 15, 2014#350

Celt Z

GasBandit said:
So what would a gaudy hawaiian shirt that appeals to women feature on it?

For starters, not a gaudy Hawaiian shirt.

Nov 15, 2014#351

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
So what would a gaudy hawaiian shirt that appeals to women feature on it?

Ryan Gosling's face.

Nov 15, 2014#352

GasBandit

Celt Z said:
For starters, not a gaudy Hawaiian shirt.

So, what then, a housecoat, PJs and big fuzzy slippers emblazoned with

Bowielee said:
Ryan Gosling's face

and pints of Ben & Jerry's?

Nov 15, 2014#353

Cajungal

GasBandit said:
So what would a gaudy hawaiian shirt that appeals to women feature on it?

Men taking out the trash and washing the dishes every once in a while. AMIRIGHTLADIES?! BENANDJERRYSANDWINE!

Ugh. Kill me.

Nov 15, 2014#354

ThatNickGuy

Am I the only one that thinks they're just ugly shirts, regardless of what picture is on them?

Nov 15, 2014#355

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
Am I the only one that thinks they're just ugly shirts, regardless of what picture is on them?

You shut your goddamned mouth.

(I wear a hawaiian shirt to work most every day of the week, though I got too fat for the one that has pretty girls on it a couple years ago).

Nov 15, 2014#356

Terrik

GasBandit said:
You shut your goddamned mouth.

(I wear a hawaiian shirt to work most every day of the week, though I got too fat for the one that has pretty girls on it a couple years ago).

You could use your new powers and ban him. Search yout feelings. You know you want to. Complete your journey to the Dave side of the force.

Nov 15, 2014#357

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
You shut your goddamned mouth.

(I wear a hawaiian shirt to work most every day of the week, though I got too fat for the one that has pretty girls on it a couple years ago).

Hey, I'm not stranger to Hawaiian shirts. Though I wore mine for the hilarity of it (and an easy way to find me in a crowded Florida theme park).

But then again, THIS shirt is a hundred times more awesome than those abominations. That's before even taking the pictures on them into account.

Nov 15, 2014#358

Krisken

I have a friend who wears Hawaiian shirts. He gets nothing but grief for it, too. I suppose it depends on where you live on whether Hawaiian shirts are something which is generally wearable. Here in Wisconsin it generally means you've given up on ever getting laid.

Nov 15, 2014#359

ThatGrinningIdiot!

His shirt was unprofessional and ridiculous, but I don't believe the amount of negative response was warranted considering what he achieved. If any cause has to bully a man for his poor taste in clothing, I doubt it'll engender many people to join it.

Nov 15, 2014#360

Cajungal

I feel like most ladies have the decency to relegate gross clothing like that to insufferable bachelorette parties. I knew I couldn't stop my friends from doing that. That's partly why my party was in a cabin in Ville Platte.

Nov 15, 2014#361

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Grr. Argh. I'm reading comments on the whole debacle and it's infuriating me. What should have been a monumental and historic event in the history of humanity is now being overshadowed by the trampled "feelings" of a privileged group. Fucken hell people, it's just a goddamn shirt! >:/

Nov 15, 2014#362

Charlie Don't Surf

oh my god you babies, the comet landing is not overshadowed by feminist criticism of an inappropriate shirt. It's still going down in the record book and it's still momentous and I doubt in 5 years the wiki article on it will even mention dude's shirt.

Nov 15, 2014#363

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
oh my god you babies, it's just a shirt.

FTFY

Nov 15, 2014#364

Hailey Knight

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
Grr. Argh.

As a man, this speaks to me.

I'm reading comments on the whole debacle and it's infuriating me.

Never read the comments. That should be an internet rule.

What should have been a monumental and historic event in the history of humanity is now being overshadowed by the trampled "feelings" of a privileged group. Fucken hell people, it's just a goddamn shirt! >:/

Which privileged group?

Nov 15, 2014#365

Gruebeard

Give a pass to people who do big things, huh? Isn't that why we have a thread about a town covering up rape?

-Charlie II

Also, I like to think I pick Hawaiian shirts that look good. Other than one asshole who laughed at them, I've had nothing but compliments when I wear mine. And they're a significant part of my wardrobe.

Nov 16, 2014#366

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Zero Esc said:
As a man, this speaks to me.

Never read the comments. That should be an internet rule.

Which privileged group?

The vast number of people who instead of praising a once in a lifetime achievement, decide to berate the person responsible for it on something so subjective like his choice in clothing. Since they have luxuries like time and access to the internet to voice their displeasure, they fit the criteria of being in a group and privileged.

Nov 16, 2014#367

Krisken

I feel like there should be an irony tag.

Nov 16, 2014#368

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Krisken said:
I feel like there should be an irony tag.

I'm well aware of my privilege too Krisken, I know I fit in the description I made. But I wouldn't be voicing any displeasure at all if those people didn't choose to create an issue out of a non-issue in the face of a huge accomplishment, I'd just be celebrating now.

Nov 16, 2014#369

Krisken

Sure, because for you it's a non-issue. I'm pretty sure those women who are angry don't feel that way. Would you feel differently if it was one of your issues you cared about?

Nov 16, 2014#370

Cajungal

I'm gonna go ahead and paraphrase some choice advice that's sometimes given to ladies: Just quit being so emotional about what other people are saying. Simply don't let it affect you. Quit feeling feelings.

Not verbatim, but you know.

Nov 16, 2014#371

Chad Sexington

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
I'm well aware of my privilege too Krisken, I know I fit in the description I made. But I wouldn't be voicing any displeasure at all if those people didn't choose to create an issue out of a non-issue in the face of a huge accomplishment, I'd just be celebrating now.

Just celebrate, then.

If it's a non-issue to you, don't let other people's opinion ruin your good feeling.

Nov 16, 2014#372

Gruebeard

Cajungal said:
Quit feeling feelings.

Totally unrelated to this thread, I wish I could do that at work.

This probably belongs in a rant thread.

Nov 16, 2014#373

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Turns out there's a hunky dudes version of the shirt, too. Equality, huzzah!

I'm sure if he had worn this shirt, tongues would still be waggin' about it.
They'd just be wagging in a different direction.

--Patrick

Nov 16, 2014#374

Cajungal

Gruebeard said:
I wish I could do that at work.

I will drink to that

Nov 16, 2014#375

GasBandit

Was browsing imgur, and a picture of the dude in an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SHIRT came up.. and I nearly did a spit take.

I HAVE THAT SHIRT

I HAVE THIS EXACT SHIRT

OMG

Nov 16, 2014#376

PatrThom

I'm starting to get more curious about the rest of his wardrobe.
Also if the Internet is going to be like this about it, maybe we should change it to Not Another Shirt Accident.

--Patrick

Nov 16, 2014#377

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
I'm starting to get more curious about the rest of his wardrobe.
Also if the Internet is going to be like this about it, maybe we should change it to Not Another Shirt Accident.

--Patrick

It's the ESA, so it'd be more like "Excellent Shirt Association."

Nov 19, 2014#378

GasBandit

Well, if there's one thing that's good about the whole harassment debate, it's that I just got to call our HR lady to the carpet (in a joking way) for her telling our promotions director (also female) to "Smile!" in the hallway.

Nov 25, 2014#379

Dave

Nov 25, 2014#380

Charlie Don't Surf

there is a lot wrong with that joke and I dunno where to start.

for one, I doubt any man has ever feared a kiosk guy raping or killing them. has a man ever been told "don't wear that suit, you're just asking for a salesperson to try to sell you a beamer"

Nov 25, 2014#381

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
has a man ever been told "don't wear that suit, you're just asking for a salesperson to try to sell you a beamer"

Actually, when you go shopping for cars/car repairs/car parts at a scrapyard, common knowledge IS to dress down. I know it was a joke on the Cosby show, too, but my dad went to extra pains to look poor when we went to buy things where haggling was a thing - had me drive him in my beat up mazda instead of his nice car, "don't tell them I'm a doctor," etc etc.

Also, lighten up Francis.

Nov 25, 2014#382

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
the Cosby show,.

speaking of sexual harassment of women

Nov 25, 2014#383

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
speaking of sexual harassment of women

And the 8:30p Thursday time slot was never the same afterwards.

--Patrick

Nov 25, 2014#384

GasBandit

Yeah, how about that. Jeesh.

Nov 25, 2014#385

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
there is a lot wrong with that joke and I dunno where to start.

for one, I doubt any man has ever feared a kiosk guy raping or killing them. has a man ever been told "don't wear that suit, you're just asking for a salesperson to try to sell you a beamer"

The joke isn't all encompassing of sexual harassment, misogyny, rape culture, etc. It is picking out one small aspect and trying to get men to empathize, because many aren't there yet. There is no headway to be made without bringing this across step by step to get more people on the same side of the issue.

Nov 26, 2014#386

Dave

Zero Esc said:
The joke isn't all encompassing of sexual harassment, misogyny, rape culture, etc. It is picking out one small aspect and trying to get men to empathize, because many aren't there yet. There is no headway to be made without bringing this across step by step to get more people on the same side of the issue.

Damn right. The joke is about awareness and puts it out there in a humorous way.

Nov 26, 2014#387

Bowielee

Charlie: fighting against his own cause since 2008.

Nov 26, 2014#388

figmentPez

Zero Esc said:
The joke isn't all encompassing of sexual harassment, misogyny, rape culture, etc. It is picking out one small aspect and trying to get men to empathize, because many aren't there yet. There is no headway to be made without bringing this across step by step to get more people on the same side of the issue.

Golly, it's almost like it's an analogy; and like all analogies it compares specific aspects of one concept to specific aspects of another concept, in order to foster understanding in people who are familiar with one of the concepts, and unfamiliar with the other; knowing that, as with all analogies, the two concepts are not the same, and thus aspects outside of the comparison may vary greatly and the analogy should not applied as a blanket statement of absolute equality, because a contrast is implied by logical progression.

But then, I find that all too few people understand the use of analogies to compare/contrast two concepts.

Nov 26, 2014#389

Bowielee

figmentPez said:
Golly, it's almost like it's an analogy; and like all analogies it compares specific aspects of one concept to specific aspects of another concept, in order to foster understanding in people who are familiar with one of the concepts, and unfamiliar with the other; knowing that, as with all analogies, the two concepts are not the same, and thus aspects outside of the comparison may vary greatly and the analogy should not applied as a blanket statement of absolute equality, because a contrast is implied by logical progression.

But then, I find that all too few people understand the use of analogies to compare/contrast two concepts.

Or it's a joke.

Nov 26, 2014#390

figmentPez

Bowielee said:
Or it's a joke.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Nov 26, 2014#391

sixpackshaker

Nov 26, 2014#392

Charlie Don't Surf

it's really funny that a guy that raped at least* a dozen women was a paid spokesperson for pudding pops

*oh, yeah, and not only did he rape them, he drugged them, showing a pattern that implies there's far more than the ones brave enough to come forward

hilarious

Nov 26, 2014#393

sixpackshaker

@Charlie Don't Surf "Have a Coke and a smile."

Nov 26, 2014#394

Charlie Don't Surf

I wish we could bring 1980s Eddie Murphy back to life and tell him that Cosby probably raped a woman earlier that week before telling Eddie Murphy to not say "fuck"

Nov 26, 2014#395

sixpackshaker

And that is why I'm making fun of Cosby.

Nov 26, 2014#396

Charlie Don't Surf

I hate deconstructing humor, but that picture is making fun of the absurdity of a congenial fellow that sells pudding pops raping a woman, let alone 12. This idea that rapists are only guys with knives that attack random women in parking garages is false and damaging.[DOUBLEPOST=1417039385,1417039120][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I hate deconstructing humor, but that picture is making fun of the absurdity of a congenial fellow that sells pudding pops raping a woman, let alone 12. This idea that rapists are only guys with knives that attack random women in parking garages is false and damaging.

also note that I said "the idea that GUYS attack WOMEN above." Men get raped by women and men as well. This image is part of why men being raped is not taken seriously. Also the idea that anyone in prison deserves to be raped. But that's for another thread.

Nov 26, 2014#397

Hailey Knight

This is probably why the value of getting things across one step at a time is lost on you--you're all over the place.

Nov 26, 2014#398

PatrThom

Bowielee said:
Charlie: fighting against his own cause since 2008.

Not just his own.

--Patrick

Nov 26, 2014#399

Terrik

I didn't think Charlie's last post was all that bad. Am I missing something?

Nov 26, 2014#400

Hailey Knight

Terrik said:
I didn't think Charlie's last post was all that bad. Am I missing something?

I don't think he makes a bad point, but then he jumps to the next point, and the next. It's not a big deal, but it illustrates part of the problem in his approach with this stuff. He can't focus and win one battle so that he can fight and win the next; he wants to fight all the battles at the same time.

Nov 27, 2014#401

Charlie Don't Surf

it's not my fault that y'all are wrong about so many things

Nov 27, 2014#402

DarkAudit

Nov 27, 2014#403

Charlie Don't Surf

did you intentionally make those smileys into a thrusting phallus, or was it a happy coincidence

Nov 27, 2014#404

Tinwhistler

Nov 27, 2014#405

Krisken

BIG John.

Nov 27, 2014#406

Charlie Don't Surf

rock me like a hurricane

Nov 27, 2014#407

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
it's not my fault that y'all are wrong about so many things

But you don't help. You don't know how. You're the white guy at the civil rights rally trying to shout louder than the people actually being oppressed. And that's not a new thing; white people were doing that back in the '60s, too. It's destructive to the message, it hurts more than helps. I wish I still had the article about this by people after protests from a couple months back, pro-Ferguson support in other cities. After the rally, when the white people had gone home, the leaders met up with black protestors and discussed the damage white participants were doing with their behavior. You're not the only one who acts like this; you're part of a larger problem. It's just a modern age "white man's burden," and it's no less harmful.

Nov 27, 2014#408

Charlie Don't Surf

Zero Esc said:
But you don't help. You don't know how. You're the white guy at the civil rights rally trying to shout louder than the people actually being oppressed. And that's not a new thing; white people were doing that back in the '60s, too. It's destructive to the message, it hurts more than helps. I wish I still had the article about this by people after protests from a couple months back, pro-Ferguson support in other cities. After the rally, when the white people had gone home, the leaders met up with black protestors and discussed the damage white participants were doing with their behavior. You're not the only one who acts like this; you're part of a larger problem. It's just a modern age "white man's burden," and it's no less harmful.

i disagree with everything you say, it's not like I'm outshouting any POC here since uhhhhh there aren't any

Nov 27, 2014#409

Adam

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i disagree with everything you say, it's not like I'm outshouting any POC here since uhhhhh there aren't any

ba-link

Nov 27, 2014#410

LittleSin

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i disagree with everything you say, it's not like I'm outshouting any POC here since uhhhhh there aren't any

Are we really all white?

Cuz, daaaamn.

Nov 27, 2014#411

Bowielee

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i disagree with everything you say, it's not like I'm outshouting any POC here since uhhhhh there aren't any

Nope, but you sure do outshout the women and the homosexuals on our behalf.[DOUBLEPOST=1417105510,1417105450][/DOUBLEPOST]

LittleSin said:
Are we really all white?

Cuz, daaaamn.

Apparently Asians are white now?

Nov 27, 2014#412

LittleSin

Bowielee said:
Nope, but you sure do outshout the women and the homosexuals on our behalf.[DOUBLEPOST=1417105510,1417105450][/DOUBLEPOST]

Apparently Asians are white now?

I literally know no ones ethnicity on this board. I know where people "are" but that means nothing.

Nov 27, 2014#413

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i disagree with everything you say, it's not like I'm outshouting any POC here since uhhhhh there aren't any

Asians don't count?

But in any case, I'm not saying that's literally what you're doing, because as you've said you wouldn't go out to one of these things anyway. I said you're like that person; you're methods are related to volume and commotion, not changing minds. The megaphone is useful for getting attention. Everyone here is already aware of what's going on. In what way do you think your methods change anyone's minds? People have been driven to the other side of things because of your abrasive tactics.

So, you're like those people. You do more harm than good. It's why it's been pondered on this forum if you're actually against the causes you support, because your methods are the kind that turn someone in the middle toward the other side. But I don't think that's the case. I think you just have no idea what you're doing and fortunately you stay on your computer where your damage is minimized to the people here.

Nov 27, 2014#414

Krisken

You're white if white people say you're white. That's how it works, right?

Nov 27, 2014#415

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
Nope, but you sure do outshout the women and the homosexuals on our behalf.

^this. And this won't be the kind of thing Charlie will respond to. Like the feminism thread from a couple years ago where women on the forum made a point that Charlie was disrespecting them, he is incapable of listening.

Apparently Asians are white now?

I be ninja'd.[DOUBLEPOST=1417105958,1417105869][/DOUBLEPOST]

LittleSin said:
I literally know no ones ethnicity on this board. I know where people "are" but that means nothing.

I know Shego is Hispanic, I believe Bhamv is Asian.

I think for Charlie POC = black people.

Nov 27, 2014#416

LittleSin

Zero Esc said:
^this. And this won't be the kind of thing Charlie will respond to. Like the feminism thread from a couple years ago where women on the forum made a point that Charlie was disrespecting them, he is incapable of listening.

I be ninja'd.[DOUBLEPOST=1417105958,1417105869][/DOUBLEPOST]

I know Shego is Hispanic, I believe Bhamv is Asian.

I think for Charlie POC = black people.

Totes for got about Bhamv. I knew shego is hispanic but since she's not really around much I didn't count her, I guess!

Nov 27, 2014#417

Hailey Knight

... we could make a poll, but I don't know if we'd like the results.

Nov 27, 2014#418

Adam

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i disagree with everything you say, it's not like I'm outshouting any POC here since uhhhhh there aren't any

Adam said:
ba-link

IN GIF FORM

Nov 27, 2014#419

GasBandit

We have quite a few posters from south of the border. You guys have mentioned Shego, but don't forget Calleja, or Cog, and there's probably more that I don't remember right off the top of my head.

Nov 27, 2014#420

Adam

GasBandit said:
We have quite a few posters from south of the border. You guys have mentioned Shego, but don't forget Calleja, or Cog, and there's probably more that I don't remember right off the top of my head.

Calleja is whiter than I am. Which is saying something.

Nov 27, 2014#421

GasBandit

Adam said:
IN GIF FORM
View attachment 16755

If we could have animated avatars, you and I would have so much fun.[DOUBLEPOST=1417107104,1417107076][/DOUBLEPOST]

Adam said:
Calleja is whiter than I am. Which is saying something.

That don't make him any less messican.

Nov 27, 2014#422

Charlie Don't Surf

Shego and Calleja are not really posting anymore are they?

And I honestly forgot / didn't know about the asian folks! They're definitely POC, although they have vastly different concerns/stereotypes, and they also enjoy more/different privilege than African Americans/ Arab Americans / Hispanic folks.

Nov 27, 2014#423

figmentPez

LittleSin said:
Are we really all white?

Cuz, daaaamn.

I miss @Green_Lantern . I hope he's okay, with all the unrest in Brazil.

Nov 27, 2014#424

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
If we could have animated avatars, you and I would have so much fun.[DOUBLEPOST=1417107104,1417107076][/DOUBLEPOST]
That don't make him any less messican.

actually being incredibly light-skinned can often grant people more privilege..................

Nov 27, 2014#425

LittleSin

Adam said:
Calleja is whiter than I am. Which is saying something.

Don't be one of those dudes.

There's a huge problem on tumblr with wihte lookin' folk practicing some ritual or holiday and being told off by SJWs...only to have to say 'Yes. I am Mexian/East Indian/whatever" in a often rightfully angry post.

Because, you know, only Europeans are white.

Nov 27, 2014#426

Charlie Don't Surf

also: re women saying I was outshouting them or saying they don't matter - I don't mean to be calling you out, but I don't remember that? If I did, let me know / PM me or something, and I'm really sorry. I'm not perfect.

Nov 27, 2014#427

LittleSin

Charlie Don't Surf said:
actually being incredibly light-skinned can often grant people more privilege..................

You know what. That may be true for America but in other places that doesn't mean a fucking thing.

If you want a rant, I will rant...but can it this time. Stop looking at everything as it pertains to the USA.

Nov 27, 2014#428

Adam

LittleSin said:
Don't be one of those dudes.

There's a huge problem on tumblr with wihte lookin' folk practicing some ritual or holiday and being told off by SJWs...only to have to say 'Yes. I am Mexian/East Indian/whatever" in a often rightfully angry post.

Because, you know, only Europeans are white.

Cultural appropriation. It's another pathetic SJW attempt at propogating white guilt.

Nov 27, 2014#429

Charlie Don't Surf

LittleSin said:
You know what. That may be true for America but in other places that doesn't mean a fucking thing.

If you want a rant, I will rant...but can it this time. Stop looking at everything as it pertains to the USA.

I did use the word can, not does and not always.

Nov 27, 2014#430

LittleSin

Adam said:
Cultural appropriation. It's another pathetic SJW attempt at propogating white guilt.

There are times when cultural appropriation happens. Native American war bonnets, for example.

There are cases where cultural appropriation, dare I say, BETTERS something. Henna, for example, was originally used strictly to gauge a potential prides purity and how good a wife she would be and how she should be treated. Now its used as an art form and a sign of empowerment for breast cancer patients.

Then, there are times when it doesn't mean anything. Adding doritos to your tacos, while kinda gross, isn't going to collapse a culture.

Nov 27, 2014#431

Charlie Don't Surf

Adam said:
Cultural appropriation. It's another pathetic SJW attempt at propogating white guilt.

every time you use SJW as a pejorative, it makes me stronger

Nov 27, 2014#432

Adam

Charlie Don't Surf said:
every time you use SJW as a pejorative, it makes me stronger

You need it.

Nov 27, 2014#433

Charlie Don't Surf

LittleSin said:
Then, there are times when it doesn't mean anything. Adding doritos to your tacos, while kinda gross, isn't going to collapse a culture.

wait, did anyone on earth get offended by Taco Bell (which serves nothing resembling Hispanic cuisine) putting Doritos in their garbage? Taco Bell's existence is more offensive to Hispanic cuisine than whatever horrid twist the evil scientists in their dark laboratory discovered to kill Americans faster

Nov 27, 2014#434

LittleSin

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I did use the word can, not does and not always.

I apologize. This has been something irksome to be lately, on behalf of my friend who is Mi'kmaq and is often told she is not based on how white she is.[DOUBLEPOST=1417108081,1417107985][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
wait, did anyone on earth get offended by Taco Bell (which serves nothing resembling Hispanic cuisine) putting Doritos in their garbage? Taco Bell's existence is more offensive to Hispanic cuisine than whatever horrid twist the evil scientists in their dark laboratory discovered to kill Americans faster

I was going to use an example of using cut up hot dog in ramen but that's basically what someone on tumblr said I don't feel right about stealing their words with out being able to credit, you know?

Nov 27, 2014#435

ThatGrinningIdiot!

http://apihtawikosisan.com/2012/01/the-dos-donts-maybes-i-dont-knows-of-cultural-appropriation/

A good source, if I do say so myself.

Nov 27, 2014#436

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
wait, did anyone on earth get offended by Taco Bell (which serves nothing resembling Hispanic cuisine) putting Doritos in their garbage? Taco Bell's existence is more offensive to Hispanic cuisine than whatever horrid twist the evil scientists in their dark laboratory discovered to kill Americans faster

I have seen long rants on Tumblr about how awful "fusion" cuisine is, and that no one should attempt to incorporate flavors and techniques from other cultures, because doing so robs them of their historical context and somehow damages the other culture.

Ironically, one of the people who reblogged one of those rants later went on to reblog a post about "29 life-changing quesadillas", because it's perfectly all right to make a Jamaican jerk chicken, or teriyaki chicken, or a cuban quesadilla, but don't you dare make any sort of Asian/American fusion cuisine because that's just white people stealing from other cultures!

Nov 27, 2014#437

LittleSin

figmentPez said:
I have seen long rants on Tumblr about how awful "fusion" cuisine is, and that no one should attempt to incorporate flavors and techniques from other cultures, because doing so robs them of their historical context and somehow damages the other culture.

Ironically, one of the people who reblogged one of those rants later went on to reblog a post about "29 life-changing quesadillas", because it's perfectly all right to make a Jamaican jerk chicken, or teriyaki chicken, or a cuban quesadilla, but don't you dare make any sort of Asian/American fusion cuisine because that's just white people stealing from other cultures!

You see the one claiming West Europe had no good cuisine until the Silk Road opened and spices became a thing? They went on to claim we shouldn't use SPICES because pf this.

I don't know whats more idiotic. The fact that someone out there hates White Europeans so much they know nothing about what their native cuisine is...or that spices are some sort of coveted thing.

The only place I know that loves spice THAT much is Arrakis...and they LOVE exporting that shit.

Nov 27, 2014#438

CrimsonSoul

Charlie Don't Surf said:
wait, did anyone on earth get offended by Taco Bell (which serves nothing resembling Hispanic cuisine) putting Doritos in their garbage? Taco Bell's existence is more offensive to Hispanic cuisine than whatever horrid twist the evil scientists in their dark laboratory discovered to kill Americans faster

Uhh.. Check your facts, Taco Bell is really authentic. It gets the job done for half the price, what could be more Mexican than that?

Nov 27, 2014#439

Charlie Don't Surf

I think these sort of things are in the minority and not really a big priority for many "SJW"s. Just because some people say that they can't use spices doesn't mean others are automatically wrong?[DOUBLEPOST=1417109504,1417109467][/DOUBLEPOST]

CrimsonSoul said:
It gets the job done for half the price, what could be more Mexican than that?

what a shitty thing to say.

Nov 27, 2014#440

LittleSin

Charlie Don't Surf said:
what a shitty thing to say.

But, sadly, true...and darkly funny because of it.

Nov 27, 2014#441

figmentPez

LittleSin said:
You seeing the one claiming West Europe had no good cuisine until the Silk Road opened and spices became a thing? They went on to claim we shouldn't use SPICES because pf this.

Well, shit. I hereby revoke the use of corn by all cultures that aren't native to the Americas.

You hear that Japan? No more putting corn on pizza.

Tacos may be allowed, but only if the person making them can prove native American heritage, and that they've formally atoned for any sins their European ancestors may have committed.[DOUBLEPOST=1417110246,1417109777][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I think these sort of things are in the minority and not really a big priority for many "SJW"s. Just because some people say that they can't use spices doesn't mean others are automatically wrong?

NOT ALL SJWs!

Yes, they're a minority, but they're a very vocal minority, and there are a lot of other bullshit issues that are also being whined about. The noise they create makes it more difficult for the undecideds to hear the important message. Instead of hearing a consistent message about valid and important issues, people who are undecided hear a torrent of ridiculous and inaccurate bickering, and they have to then decide if they want to listen at all, and then spend the time and energy to differentiate between the distressed whining and the desperate cries for help.

Want to preach to the choir? Shout and rant using hyperbole in every sentence about how celebrity chefs perpetuate the idea that Asian cultures are savage and need to refined. Want to get the people who are undecided, or inactive, to listen? Talk about such side issues in measured tones and leave them as minor issues, so that the spotlight can stay on the most critical issues.

Nov 27, 2014#442

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
Want to preach to the choir? Shout and rant using hyperbole in every sentence about how celebrity chefs perpetuate the idea that Asian cultures are savage and need to refined. Want to get the people who are undecided, or inactive, to listen? Talk about such side issues in measured tones and leave them as minor issues, so that the spotlight can stay on the most critical issues.

Guess which Charlie wants.

Nov 27, 2014#443

CrimsonSoul

Charlie Don't Surf said:
what a shitty thing to say.

What's shitty is the toilet after eating Taco Bell

Nov 27, 2014#444

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Looks like another thread in which Charlie becomes the focal point of discussion. C'mon guys, how can you have not caught onto this already?! I enjoy considering everyone's view on contentious topics, but it's becoming more than irksome when everyone goes off topic to discuss Charlie's posting methods, at this point it feels as though it's formulaic.

Nov 27, 2014#445

Tinwhistler

Zero Esc said:
I think for Charlie POC = black people.

That's cause he's a dirty racist

Nov 27, 2014#446

Hailey Knight

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
Looks like another thread in which Charlie becomes the focal point of discussion. C'mon guys, how can you have not caught onto this already?! I enjoy considering everyone's view on contentious topics, but it's becoming more than irksome when everyone goes off topic to discuss Charlie's posting methods, at this point it feels as though it's formulaic.

This is what I'm talking about! :awesome:

But you're right.

Nov 27, 2014#447

Charlie Don't Surf

Tinwhistler said:
That's cause he's a dirty racist

I already explained myself, but I used a lot of words and sentences and you probably didn't read it

Nov 27, 2014#448

Tinwhistler

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I already explained myself, but I used a lot of words and sentences and you probably didn't read it

I think I read something about you forgetting that asians existed here, because you were blinded by your racist white privilege

Incidentally, my great grandparents were Comanche Indian, which makes me more indian than some of the folks I've seen on TV bitching about the Redskins.

When are you going to stick up for my rights, Charlie? Clearly, I need some white guy of privilege to do it for me

Nov 27, 2014#449

Hailey Knight

Tinwhistler said:
I think I read something about you forgetting that asians existed here, because you were blinded by your racist white privilege

Incidentally, my great grandparents were Comanche Indian, which makes me more indian than some of the folks I've seen on TV bitching about the Redskins.

When are you going to stick up for my rights, Charlie? Clearly, I need some white guy of privilege to do it for me

Charlie Don't Surf said:
actually being incredibly light-skinned can often grant people more privilege..................

Nov 27, 2014#450

Cajungal

This thread does not deliver. I haven't gotten harassed once., let alone every day.

Nov 27, 2014#451

Emrys

Cajungal said:
This thread does not deliver. I haven't gotten harassed once., let alone every day.

Give me your address and I'll send some doomweasels down to change that.

Nov 27, 2014#452

Ravenpoe

Cajungal said:
This thread does not deliver. I haven't gotten harassed once., let alone every day.

So... I hear you like beards

Nov 27, 2014#453

CrimsonSoul

Cajungal said:
This thread does not deliver. I haven't gotten harassed once., let alone every day.

Tits or gtfo!

Nov 27, 2014#454

AshburnerX

Adam said:
IN GIF FORM
View attachment 16755

I prefer this oldie but goodie.

Nov 27, 2014#455

Adam

AshburnerX said:
I prefer this oldie but goodie.

View attachment 16763

Where are you finding these? I feel like a complete charlie trying to find them and failing.

Nov 27, 2014#456

AshburnerX

Adam said:
Where are you finding these? I feel like a complete charlie trying to find them and failing.

I saved a few.

I've also got the Hoon Pooty one, but it's too large to file share on our server.

Nov 27, 2014#457

Adam

That got a vocal guffaw from me. Wow, the memories.

And the wedding ring. :*(

Nov 27, 2014#458

Hailey Knight

Cajungal said:
This thread does not deliver. I haven't gotten harassed once., let alone every day.

Hey baby, sm ... smi ... Smilex, by Joker!

Nov 27, 2014#459

bhamv3

Cajungal said:
This thread does not deliver. I haven't gotten harassed once., let alone every day.

*stares creepily at your boobs*

... I'm sorry.

Nov 27, 2014#460

Chad Sexington

Cajungal said:
This thread does not deliver. I haven't gotten harassed once., let alone every day.

I feel like this is inviting disaster.

Nov 27, 2014#461

Charlie Don't Surf

Chad Sexington said:
I feel like this is inviting disaster.

shhh, don't tap the glass

Nov 27, 2014#462

Cajungal

Just easing the tension, baby.

Nov 27, 2014#463

GasBandit

Cajungal said:
Just easing the tension, baby.

Nov 28, 2014#464

Charlie Don't Surf

Cajungal said:
Just easing the tension, baby.

I like Happy Gilmore, but that joke is slightly problematic / gay panicky

Nov 28, 2014#465

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
shhh, don't tap the ass

ftfy

Nov 28, 2014#466

Charlie Don't Surf

that is a gross misrepresentation, I have no issues with anal sex!!!!

Nov 28, 2014#467

GasBandit

Girls are always mean to the nice guy!

Charlie Don't Surf said:
that is a gross misrepresentation, I have no issues with anal sex!!!!

You heard it here - Stick it in their pooper - Charlie Approved.

Nov 28, 2014#468

Charlie Don't Surf

obv as long as it's consensual between two free souls

Nov 28, 2014#469

GasBandit

Whenever this female video game reviewer gets rape threats via facebook, she forwards it to the sender's mother.

Nov 28, 2014#470

Cajungal

Nice

Nov 28, 2014#471

PatrThom

Clever girl.

--Patrick

Nov 29, 2014#472

Charlie Don't Surf

Good.

Nov 29, 2014#473

GasBandit

I... I'm not sure where else to put this.

Nov 29, 2014#474

Emrys

I laughed so hard at that I scared five doomweasels.

Nov 30, 2014#475

DarkAudit

I feel dirty just reading this Toronto restaurant review.

It's a Trump property, so no frelling surprise there.

Nov 30, 2014#476

GasBandit

DarkAudit said:
I feel dirty just reading this Toronto restaurant review.

It's a Trump property, so no frelling surprise there.

Heh, I like the narrative paradigm... I can just hear it being read out loud by a midwestern accent over smooth jazz on NPR.

Nov 30, 2014#477

Krisken

GasBandit said:
Heh, I like the narrative paradigm... I can just hear it being read out loud by a midwestern accent over smooth jazz on NPR.

That's how all internal readings of reviews should be heard.

Dec 2, 2014#478

GasBandit

Time to step up your game, ladies. The new word in feminine ideal body shape is detachable arms.

Dec 2, 2014#479

figmentPez

Is that what men really want? I mean... ain't got no head, can't give no head...

Dec 2, 2014#480

GasBandit

figmentPez said:
Is that what men really want? I mean... ain't got no head, can't give no head...

Dude, she gives some wicked trachea.

Dec 2, 2014#481

Hailey Knight

Dat arm ...

Dec 2, 2014#482

Emrys

I would give my right arm to be able to look like that.

Dec 2, 2014#483

Bowielee

You don't even want to know how many sex toys are limbless, headless torsos.

I feel like you would have to be kind of John Wayne Gasey-ish to actually use that stuff...

Dec 4, 2014#484

Frank

Bowielee said:
You don't even want to know how many sex toys are limbless, headless torsos.

I feel like you would have to be kind of John Wayne Gasey-ish to actually use that stuff...

I've taken enough into evidence to agree.

Dec 4, 2014#485

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
You don't even want to know how many sex toys are limbless, headless torsos.

I feel like you would have to be kind of John Wayne Gasey-ish to actually use that stuff...

Well, if you think about it, a dildo and a fleshlight are both headless, limbless, torsoless, bodiless appendages.

Dec 4, 2014#486

Emrys

Ravenpoe said:
Well, if you think about it, a dildo and a fleshlight are both headless, limbless, torsoless, bodiless appendages.

Thanks, Ravenpoe. Thanks a lot.

Dec 4, 2014#487

PatrThom

Ravenpoe said:
Well, if you think about it, a dildo and a fleshlight are both headless, limbless, torsoless, bodiless appendages.

And they stack together for convenient storage.

--Patrick

Dec 4, 2014#488

Ravenpoe

Emrys said:
Thanks, Ravenpoe. Thanks a lot.

It's not my fault it looks like you hacked up a purple giant.

Dec 4, 2014#489

Emrys

Ravenpoe said:
It's not my fault it looks like you hacked up a purple giant.

This from someone who lives in "America's wang".

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