GasBandit
Staff member
Had a brain fart there, I beg your pardon.
The statistics still tell a much different story than the emotional knee-jerk responses, though.
*sighs, turns over "DAYS SINCE LAST MASS SHOOTING IN AMERICA" sign to 0*
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
The statistics still tell a much different story than the emotional knee-jerk responses, though.
Yeah, how silly to get emotional just because a dude kills 58 people and wounds over 500 over the course of two hours.
How silly to get emotional because it's only slightly larger than a massacre that wasn't that long ago.
How silly to get emotional because I can remember more than a half dozen massacres off the top of my head, and nothing has changed. Columbine. Virginia Tech. Fort Hood. San Bernardino. Orlando. Sandy Hook. Killeen.
How silly to get emotional because it's only slightly larger than a massacre that wasn't that long ago.
How silly to get emotional because I can remember more than a half dozen massacres off the top of my head, and nothing has changed. Columbine. Virginia Tech. Fort Hood. San Bernardino. Orlando. Sandy Hook. Killeen.
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You know why? Because we have super instant media and the largest population besides China. As soon as you start including the word "per capita" pure fucking magic happens.
"This doesn't happen in other countries" is mostly false, according to politifact - a site often criticized for leaning left.
Norway, Finland, and Switzerland all have higher mass shooting deaths per capita.
And here's 13 charts that put America's gun violence in perspective.
And here's one more, specifically aimed at "we have so many guns, that's why we have so many dead"...
Gun homicides per million firearms owned by country.
Good, that's horrible. Utterly stupid and indefensible.
As your link points out, the number of deaths and the number of incidents produces different outcomes. Many of the deaths in the comparison countries had a single, high impact incident. The number of incidents per capita is higher in the US than the comparison countries. It isn't as if we have only been hearing about US incidents, either. Many of those single European incidents are well known. The US incidents appear to genuinely happen with more frequency than other counties, or even Europe as a whole.You know why? Because we have super instant media and the largest population besides China. As soon as you start including the word "per capita" pure fucking magic happens.
"This doesn't happen in other countries" is mostly false, according to politifact - a site often criticized for leaning left.
Norway, Finland, and Switzerland all have higher mass shooting deaths per capita.
And here's 13 charts that put America's gun violence in perspective.
And here's one more, specifically aimed at "we have so many guns, that's why we have so many dead"...
Gun homicides per million firearms owned by country.
Were you not paying attention? This didn't happen at an Arby's, it happened at an expensive hotel! That means it was probably all white people!
--Patrick
I do wish to point out just how silly this is- Congress Extends a ban on CDC research on gun violence.
That is two years old. Yes, it is silly, though.
Yeah, they haven’t changed since then though. I find it strange how terrified we are of information on the off chance it may conflict with what we think we already know.
That's because research tends to show that more guns don't make people safer. https://www.scientificamerican.com/...utm_content&utm_term=health_partner_text_free
Welcome to most/all of human history?
Even in medical science, you only need look as recent as the 80s for an easy (and now accepted) example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptic_ulcer_disease#History They had to infect themselves to prove that they were right because decades of research "proved" that they couldn't be right.
EU suppresses study that finds piracy doesn't hurt game sales, may actually help
They might as well have gift-wrapped it and written "To: @GasBandit and @Jay" right on it.
--Patrick
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It's far more likely they couldn't do it because of ethics regarding human experimentation. No ethics board would have ever signed off on this experiment with volunteer subjects, even with wavers, because of the potential of lasting harm to any participants in the study. Basically, if they were right that this bacteria was the cause of the stomach ulcers, they'd still be giving people ulcers... ulcers that they might not be able to treat. Marshall literally had to resort to self-experimentation on the down low to prove his theory.
GasBandit
Staff member
It's fine to get emotional. It's not fine to fallaciously appeal to that emotion as a basis for setting policy.
Yes, they do. Yes, they are. And you don't have to scratch the surface very hard on most of them to find it.
I know, which is why I was addressing Null, and not you. But thanks for adding your two cents.
What part of the link are you looking at? Because the data I see in my link says the US isn't the highest in either incidents per capita or deaths per capita. The fact that it may only take one or two incidents to reach that level is immaterial - or rather, it speaks more to my point - the US is huge, but the news makes it sound small when every headline that bleeds gets broadcast coast to coast.
In fatalities per capita AND incidents per capita, the US trails Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Israel and Switzerland. They outpace us by 50-100% on incidents per capita.
GasBandit
Staff member
Information is slowly trickling in about the shooter. He was a wealthy retiree who gambled five figure amounts regularly, his income coming from apartments he owned with his mother. His father, it turns out, was a repeat bank robber on the FBI's most wanted list in the 60s and 70s, described as "psychopathic" and having "suicidal tendencies." Apple didn't fall far from the tree, I guess.
Word has it the full auto effect was accomplished by using a bump stock - a spring loaded specialized stock/grip combo addon that allow the recoil of the gun to push itself into the empty space of the stock and to move the trigger assembly with it back into a guard that allows the trigger - when staying in place where your finger is - to move "forward" in the gun's frame of reference, then the spring pushes the gun forward out of the stock again so that the trigger pulls itself on your finger, which fires the gun again. Bump stock mods are legal, but I don't expect them to remain so very long.
Word has it the full auto effect was accomplished by using a bump stock - a spring loaded specialized stock/grip combo addon that allow the recoil of the gun to push itself into the empty space of the stock and to move the trigger assembly with it back into a guard that allows the trigger - when staying in place where your finger is - to move "forward" in the gun's frame of reference, then the spring pushes the gun forward out of the stock again so that the trigger pulls itself on your finger, which fires the gun again. Bump stock mods are legal, but I don't expect them to remain so very long.
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What does this actually mean? That living in the US is safer than living in Norway? If we remove all political motivated shootings by terrorist, Norway wouldn't be on the list. In fact the whole list would look different.
In fatalities per capita AND incidents per capita, the US trails Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Israel and Switzerland. They outpace us by 50-100% on incidents per capita.
Oh and if we use the level of firearm regulation to sort the list the US would be on top.
Why is comparing gun deaths against certain countries considered acceptable data, but when it comes to healthcare, what works for them won't work for America?
Because it isn’t politically convenient.
Dave
Staff member
BAM! Logic'd!
I think it means that, if you pick your years right, you can prove anything...
I just checked, and of course all 77 of Norway's victims are from Brevik. Which just goes to show, usaians rampages are simply badly executed.
Trevor sums up one the most annoying things that happens after these events.
GasBandit
Staff member
It means that the perception that this "only happens here" is false, and largely manufactured to advance an anti-2nd amendment agenda.
And if the Las Vegas shooter turns out to have been politically motivated, a conclusion many are already jumping to given the demographic of the victims and the current political climate, does that mean it should be stricken from the roles, too?
Are you saying we should strive for greater gun deaths to match Norway and Finland? Obviously what's working for them won't work for America here, either.
One dude died from Four Loko, and we regulate that shit.
Kinder Eggs are too dangerous to sell in America because they have a plastic toy inside that may be a choking hazard.
Sassafras Oil has been banned in the USA since 1960 because it has been linked to causing certain kinds of cancer.
Buckyball magnets are prohibited because kids swallow them and they have a risk of perforating the digestive system.
But a 5.56mm rifle with a 30 round removable box magazine and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? Readily available.
Kinder Eggs are too dangerous to sell in America because they have a plastic toy inside that may be a choking hazard.
Sassafras Oil has been banned in the USA since 1960 because it has been linked to causing certain kinds of cancer.
Buckyball magnets are prohibited because kids swallow them and they have a risk of perforating the digestive system.
But a 5.56mm rifle with a 30 round removable box magazine and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? Readily available.
Would be different if the founding fathers had include those in an amendment.
Listing a bunch of cases of government overreach (oil excepted, not in the mood to review FDA rulings) is a piss-poor argument here, unless you're arguing for deregulating all of those a la libertarian. Many wrongs don't make your pet policy a right (or lubricate your slippery slope), and I say that as someone who wants gun control.
GasBandit
Staff member
Cars kill more people than guns. Would you have them banned, too? Or do you comfortably accept those deaths in exchange for convenience?
And what Den said, too.
That way madness lies. Founding Fathers didn't specify repeating laser blasters, either, but they'd still fall under the 2nd Amendment. No, they wouldn't! Only guns for protection! No, it's for rising up against a dictator, so the People need the same as an army can get! Oh, so we get tanks? No, because it only applies to man-held "regular soldier" guns and not everyone gets a tank. Etc.
The Politifact link, at the bottom. Maybe we are crossing our wires on the links?It's fine to get emotional. It's not fine to fallaciously appeal to that emotion as a basis for setting policy.
Yes, they do. Yes, they are. And you don't have to scratch the surface very hard on most of them to find it.
I know, which is why I was addressing Null, and not you. But thanks for adding your two cents.
What part of the link are you looking at? Because the data I see in my link says the US isn't the highest in either incidents per capita or deaths per capita. The fact that it may only take one or two incidents to reach that level is immaterial - or rather, it speaks more to my point - the US is huge, but the news makes it sound small when every headline that bleeds gets broadcast coast to coast.
In fatalities per capita AND incidents per capita, the US trails Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Israel and Switzerland. They outpace us by 50-100% on incidents per capita.
Well, Gas, you may be surprised to learn that cars have a practical purpose in people's everyday life by providing transportation. People generally require some kind of transportation to get to work, do the shopping, etc, and since by and large in this country we don't have an effective mass transit system, individual transportation by car is a necessity.
How many days during the week do you need to use a gun?