Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

You know, as dickish as charlie is, he isn't the one who said supporting abortion is comparable to supporting the murder of every person in the middle east:
Why is that statement so strange? Depending on your definitions for human life, those are perfectly comparable. Heck, it also depends on how you value/compare human lives (if you do at all). I'd think that the QALYS of unborn American children is probably higher than the average Middle Eastern person's.

AfAm abortion in particular is a complicated subject, though (Black Genocide should ring a bell).
 
Yep. See you when you get bored and come back!
Didn't CDS state something along the lines of "I post all kinds of crap just to see how people react" in his AMA thread? I'm almost absolutely sure he did.

So I'm basically ignoring him, reading his posts with the idea of he's just trying to stir up crap to see what happens and laughing a little when everyone does what he wants.
 
Didn't CDS state something along the lines of "I post all kinds of crap just to see how people react" in his AMA thread? I'm almost absolutely sure he did.

So I'm basically ignoring him, reading his posts with the idea of he's just trying to stir up crap to see what happens and laughing a little when everyone does what he wants.
I just literally have him on ignore, so it's like, "Wait, what's everyone talking about all of a sudden? Oh, must be Charlie."
 
You know, as dickish as charlie is, he isn't the one who said supporting abortion is comparable to supporting the murder of every person in the middle east:
True. He's the one saying that murdering millions of babies is desirable, and murdering millions of middle easterners isn't acceptable.

I'm saying neither is acceptable.

But if you successfully dehumanize one or the other then you can justify the murder as acceptable, or even humane.

This is something Charlie has done with regard to the unborn. Others have done it with regard to the Middle East.

But then I'm apparently being dickish believing that the unborn are human and have rights, so you probably shouldn't trust anything I might have to say on the subject - after all, dehumanizing pro life supporters is in vogue these days.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Didn't CDS state something along the lines of "I post all kinds of crap just to see how people react" in his AMA thread? I'm almost absolutely sure he did.

So I'm basically ignoring him, reading his posts with the idea of he's just trying to stir up crap to see what happens and laughing a little when everyone does what he wants.
Yeah, but I think he was backpedaling/hedging there a little. He's interested in the response, of course, but I get the feeling he isn't "crafting" his posts, he's just removing his self-censor and letting what he believes dribble out like a colostomy stoma. He only cops to being a troll when he gets self conscious. It's the "I was just testing you" of online posting.
 
True. He's the one saying that murdering millions of babies is desirable, and murdering millions of middle easterners isn't acceptable.

I'm saying neither is acceptable.

But if you successfully dehumanize one or the other then you can justify the murder as acceptable, or even humane.

This is something Charlie has done with regard to the unborn. Others have done it with regard to the Middle East.

But then I'm apparently being dickish believing that the unborn are human and have rights, so you probably shouldn't trust anything I might have to say on the subject - after all, dehumanizing pro life supporters is in vogue these days.
To equate people in the middle east to lumps of cells that will eventually become human (but clearly aren't yet) is incredibly insulting.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
It's amusing how often the hard left absolutely cannot abide any point of view other than their own, when they purport to be the understanding, tolerant, compassionate ones.
 
It's amusing how often the hard left absolutely cannot abide any point of view other than their own, when they purport to be the understanding, tolerant, compassionate ones.
I don't have to be tolerant of intolerance. When I advocate making abortion mandatory, that will make the arguments comparable.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
My father sent out an e-mail to the family today about the recent shootings. As I've reposted some of his other missives in the past, I hope you all will continue to indulge me. Take it away, Khaki Kukri:

"Like most rights, the Second Amendment right [to keep and bear arms] is not unlimited. It is not a right to carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose." (Justice Antonin Scalia, 2008).

"We have a densely populated state, and we have an illegal handgun problem in New Jersey. . . What I support are commonsense laws that will allow people to protect themselves, but I am also very concerned about the safety of our police officers on the street. . ." (Gov. Chris Christie, 2009).

"I voted very strongly for instant background checks. I want to see them made stronger, probably the most important thing that we can do. . . And, in addition to that, what I believe is we need to do a lot, lot better job in terms of mental health in this country." (Sen. Bernie Sanders, 2015).

I am sad and angry at the news of the Muslim couple who shot up an office Christmas party in San Bernardino yesterday. And the crazy hermit redneck who shot up a Planned Parenthood clinic here in Colorado Springs last Friday ([GB's Stepmom] and I are attending the funeral cortege tomorrow of Officer Garrett Swasey, the policeman who was killed defending us in that incident). And the riots in Baltimore. And the church shootings in Charleston. And the school shootings in California and Connecticut and on and on and on and on.

I am also sad and angry that you see stories like those almost weekly in the national media, but almost never see stories like the following in the national media -- but when you dig through the local outlets you find there are literally hundreds of thousands, possibly millions:
-- A disabled man had been robbed and burgled 5 times in the last six years, and finally bought a revolver. That very night, he heard a burglar breaking in again. Moving from his bed to his wheelchair, he tucked his gun beside him and rolled into his living room where he encountered the intruder, who attacked him with a steel crowbar. The disabled man shot him in the shoulder. Responding police found the wounded burglar hiding in the bushes and took him into custody after a brief struggle. No charges were filed against the disabled man. (Portland, ME, Press Herald)
-- When a Houston-area homeowner noticed a man smashing his car windows outside his home, he confronted the man and demanded he stop. Rather than comply, the vandal advanced menacingly on the homeowner who retreated into his garage. The vandal damaged the garage door with his crowbar so it could not be closed, and continued his aggressive approach. The homeowner retrieved a gun and fired on the intruder, killing him. Police declined to arrest the homeowner, who they said was acting in defense of his home and family. (KHOU-TV Ch11, Houston, TX)
-- An elderly Detroit couple was returning home one evening when three men, one armed with a gun, approached them in the parking area. When the armed robber grabbed the lady's purse, her husband took advantage of the distraction to draw his own legally carried gun. He killed the armed robber and drove off his accomplices. Responding police do not expect the elderly victims to be charged. (Detroit, MI, News)
-- A 14 year old North Las Vegas boy was home with his younger siblings when they heard knocking at the door. Trained by their father not to answer the door, the boy realized the door was being broken when the knocks turned into thuds and crashes. He and his siblings retreated to an upstairs bedroom closet where they hid with their father's rifle. When one of the ransacking burglars opened the closet and saw the older boy with the rifle, the burglars promptly fled. Fortunately, no one was hurt in the incident and police were able to use video surveillance tape from the home to identify and apprehend the burglars. (KSNV-TV Ch3, Las Vegas, NV)
-- and on and on and on and on.


We don't need gun control, we need violent perpetrator control -- which may entail restrictions balancing various rights in conflict, including gun rights. But you know which road is paved with good intentions -- can you prove that such restrictions are effective? Because it is a lot easier to give up rights under a perceived threat than it is to get them back later.

The key problem is how to make it harder for the wolves without making it harder for the sheepdogs. Historically, gun control has restricted ordinary responsible citizens' access to tools to defend themselves and their families from the criminals who ignore such laws.

Like Sen. Bernie Sanders, I would support a system of universal instant background checks to make it harder to obtain firearms for convicted violent felons, certain misdemeanor offenders (e.g., domestic violence, drunk driving), straw-man buyers, known terrorists, and the mentally ill who have been adjudged a danger to themselves or others.

Note that identification and treatment of the dangerous mentally ill is as big or bigger problem than the identification of willfully violent criminals. In 2008, 18,251 mentally ill persons committed suicide by firearm compared to 12,209 firearm homicides, some large fraction of which were also committed by the mentally ill. [CDC and FBI data]

In the wake of recent mass shootings, many have proposed expanding the no-gun restrictions to "suspected" terrorists (e.g., people on a government watch list) and to less stringent classes of mentally ill or suspected unstable persons.

The problem with this is the lack of appeal available to people wrongly placed in such classes (the accusation becomes the conviction, and without a fair hearing), and the likelihood of abuse by government functionaries of their political or religious opponents.

Should every Muslim in America be disarmed? Every hillbilly? Should any woman who was treated for depression after her rape be hampered from defending herself against another? Many more convicted shooters previously voted Democrat than Republican; should we disarm all Democrats?

Of course not.

So where do we draw the line? I suggest a preliminary test might be substituting phrases like "abortion rights" or "voting rights" or "free speech rights" for "gun rights" in any proposal and see if you still like it. And remember that "a law that doesn't protect someone I abhor doesn't protect me." (Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes).

This stuff gets real complicated real fast. The instant background check system in Louisiana was plagued with errors. So I would also like to see a Federally supervised State-run system that allows time for a more thorough evaluation, say 30 days, similar to the national security clearance system. It should include not only criminal and commitment history but also evidence of safety and jurisprudence training (ie, when are you justified in drawing your gun, when are you justified in shooting, etc.). If you pass you get a card certifying that you can buy, sell, and carry any firearm legal in your home jurisdiction. Like your driver’s license and marriage certificate, each state and city must honor the certifications of other states; in other words, I can't be put in jail driving thru Alabama for marrying a black woman, nor in Chicago for carrying something that's legal in Colorado. And like your driver’s license, it would expire periodically and you would have to rescreened; also, it can be suspended or revoked at any time by a judge for cause. Similarly, someone who believes she has been wrongfully denied can present evidence to an appeals judge, who can uphold the denial, approve full certification, or approve certification with limits.

The idea would be to certify the person rather than the tool. El Al airline of Israel has not had a hijacking since Entebbe because they screen for dangerous people not dangerous weapons. If you are allowed onboard at all, you can bring whatever you want in your carryon or on your person.

Efforts to restrict the tools of violence are usually red herrings. They distract attention and divert resources at the expense of dealing effectively with the perpetrators of violence.[DOUBLEPOST=1449193707,1449193626][/DOUBLEPOST]
I don't have to be tolerant of intolerance. When I advocate making abortion mandatory, that will make the arguments comparable.
You cannot countenance that there are people who have a different idea than you about when life begins. That's what I was referring to.
 
You cannot countenance that there are people who have a different idea than you about when life begins. That's what I was referring to.
I know that. I'm not really expecting to change his mind, but just because someone is firmly set in their beliefs doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out for saying shitty stuff.
 
Pfft no one takes home ec anymore. [emoji14][DOUBLEPOST=1449194557,1449194201][/DOUBLEPOST]
I know that. I'm not really expecting to change his mind, but just because someone is firmly set in their beliefs doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out for saying shitty stuff.
:facepalm:
 
I know that. I'm not really expecting to change his mind, but just because someone is firmly set in their beliefs doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out for saying shitty stuff.
To equate people in the middle east to lumps of cells that will eventually become human (but clearly aren't yet) is incredibly insulting.
Hey, you're saying shitty stuff. Please remember that "is incredibly insulting" is one step from "I'm offended!" and is an incredibly tumblr thing of you to say.
 
Y'all should probably dial it back a bit. It's getting hard to separate the extremists from the moderates in here.

And there is a whole lot of dickish going around.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Yeah, honestly I get where Steinman is coming from. This is an incredibly sensitive subject an almost impossible to argue past a certain point. I hope I didn't offend anyone too much. I was just joshing around.
 
Speaking of gun control laws: From the Wall Street Journal

In the Senate, Republicans blocked Democrats’ gun-related amendments to a health-care bill. One amendment, defeated in a 48-50 vote, would have expanded background checks to all gun sales online and at gun shows, with the goal of flagging people with criminal or mental-health histories that disqualify them from gun ownership. Currently, the checks are needed only for sales by federally licensed dealers.*

Another amendment would have given the Justice Department authority to prevent a known or suspected terrorist on a watch list from buying firearms or explosives.

* - private sales (not just via gun shows) account for nearly 40% of all transfers of firearms ownership in the US, and in 33 states private sellers are not required to do background checks or keep records of their sales.

I'm sorry, but do either of those seem like unreasonable ideas? Particularly the second one: "Well, you're too dangerous to allow on an airplane, but you can go ahead and buy an assault rifle and some dynamite."
 
I'm sorry, but do either of those seem like unreasonable ideas? Particularly the second one: "Well, you're too dangerous to allow on an airplane, but you can go ahead and buy an assault rifle and some dynamite."
What is a disqualifying mental disorder? Who gets to decide what they are? Who gets to diagnose them?

Considering we have states and cities that refuse to sign gun permits essentially because they can, it's almost a sure bet that the answers to those questions are "All", "Unelected, unaccountable officials", and "Whoever will act however the government wants".
 
What is a disqualifying mental disorder? Who gets to decide what they are? Who gets to diagnose them?

Considering we have states and cities that refuse to sign gun permits essentially because they can, it's almost a sure bet that the answers to those questions are "All", "Unelected, unaccountable officials", and "Whoever will act however the government wants".
Well, no, not actually. The specific disqualifications related to mental health are quite narrow. Under federal law, an individual is prohibited from buying or possessing firearms if they have been “adjudicated as a mental defective” or “committed to a mental institution.” A person is “adjudicated as a mental defective” if a court — or other entity having legal authority to make adjudications — has made a determination that an individual, as a result of mental illness: 1) Is a danger to himself or to others; 2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs; 3) Is found insane by a court in a criminal case, or incompetent to stand trial, or not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. A person is “committed to a mental institution” if that person has been involuntarily committed to a mental institution by a court or other lawful authority. This expressly excludes voluntary commitment. If a person falls under one of these two categories, they are prohibited from purchasing and possessing firearms for life.

In New Jersey, you're additionally prohibited from getting a Firearms Permit if you have been confined for a mental disorder to a hospital, mental institution, or sanitarium.

California takes a graduated approach to the problem, prohibiting the purchase and possession of firearms by individuals who:
• Have been voluntarily admitted to a psychiatric facility and are receiving inpatient treatment for a mental illness and the attending mental health professional states that the individual is a danger to self or others. Once an individual has been discharged from the facility, the prohibition no longer applies.
• Have communicated to a licensed psychotherapist a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or victims. This prohibition applies for six months after the report of a threat is made. The subject of the prohibition may petition to have it removed.
• Are currently under a court-ordered conservatorship because they are “gravely disabled” as a result of a mental disorder. The prohibition expires when the conservatorship ends, though the subject of a conservatorship may ask the court for a hearing to contest the prohibition.
• Are receiving involuntary mental health treatment as part of a 72-hour hold (also known as a 5150) because they are a danger to themselves or others. The individual is prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms while they are in the facility and for five years from the date of admission to the facility. The subject of the prohibition may go before a state court to petition for the restoration of their right to purchase and possess firearms.

I don't think that it's unreasonable that, if you're so mentally ill that you have been institutionalized, you shouldn't be permitted to buy a firearm.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
And, just a point of fact, you don't have a constitutional right to dynamite. There is already a very strict licensing system involved for purchasing explosives.
 
* - private sales (not just via gun shows) account for nearly 40% of all transfers of firearms ownership in the US, and in 33 states private sellers are not required to do background checks or keep records of their sales
Here ya go...

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/03/guns-acquired-without-background-checks/
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/337834/private-gun-sales-numbers-robert-verbruggen
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...2ec050-629a-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_blog.html+

As to the Internet "loophole," a Washington Post article that does a good job of giving relevant information...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...eally-so-easy-to-buy-a-gun-over-the-internet/[DOUBLEPOST=1449332340,1449332056][/DOUBLEPOST]
And, just a point of fact, you don't have a constitutional right to dynamite. There is already a very strict licensing system involved for purchasing explosives.
To add to that, the National Firearms act of 1968 basically took away almost all avenues to legally obtain any type of automatic (machine gun) fire weapon and "sawed-off" shotgun style weapons.
 
Here ya go...

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/03/guns-acquired-without-background-checks/
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/337834/private-gun-sales-numbers-robert-verbruggen
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...2ec050-629a-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_blog.html+

As to the Internet "loophole," a Washington Post article that does a good job of giving relevant information...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...eally-so-easy-to-buy-a-gun-over-the-internet/[DOUBLEPOST=1449332340,1449332056][/DOUBLEPOST]
To add to that, the National Firearms act of 1968 basically took away almost all avenues to legally obtain any type of automatic (machine gun) fire weapon and "sawed-off" shotgun style weapons.
So essentially, the 40% is from a flawed study, so it's suspect, but basically no one has any hard numbers one way or the other?
 
I don't think that it's unreasonable that, if you're so mentally ill that you have been institutionalized, you shouldn't be permitted to buy a firearm.
Exhibit A: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psikhushka
Psychiatrist-I-Admire's Rambling B: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/05/the-right-to-waive-your-rights/ (this is actually a fantastic read, I'd rather not abbreviate it)
Psychiatrist Brother's Opinion C: Involuntary commitment is often a psychiatrist's better-safe-than-sorry tool. The more punishment you attach to being involuntarily committed (permanent reduction in rights, financial distress due to having to pay for your own stay, ...), the less likely people are to put themselves in situations where this is one of the plausible outcomes. That means they're less likely to get the help they need.
 
I don't know about the right way to do background checks, but using the terror watch list seems unrealistic, as it is basically a giant mess known for false positives and vindictive additions.
 
Dozens of Christian schools win Title IX waivers to ban LGBT students, by Andy Birkey (1 Dec 2015)

[T]hese schools have asked the federal government for these waivers not only to deny enrollment to or expel transgender students, but the broad-based waiver requests have also targeted gay, lesbian, and bisexual students and staff. In some cases schools have even asked for, and been granted, a waiver to allow them to expel women who have been pregnant outside of marriage.
Here's a request letter one of the waived schools sent. Note on page 2 they're asking for exemption where their beliefs conflict with admission, recruitment, education, and employment of people based on the school's views on marriage, sex outside marriage, sexual orientation, gender identity, pregnancy, and abortion.https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fthecolu.mn%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2FCarsonNewmanUniversity.pdf&h=ZAQGJQgBR

The reaction to this will be interesting on all sides. I'm guessing these exemptions will be challenged in court in not too long.
 
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