Bullying to Death. What's the deal?

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#1
It seems like there is this reported increase in teen suicides related to school bullying.
1 Ohio school, 4 bullied teens dead by own hand - Yahoo! News
As sad and unfortunate as this is, It's interesting to me because I can't imagine that bullying in the 21st century has gotten "worse" than what I had to deal with.
I was bullied quite a bit. Sure I contimplated suicide, but I don't remember EVER getting even close to actually doing it. And knowing for a fact I wasn't the only one getting bullied at the time I ask... what's different?

Technology seems the most likely culprit. Cyber bullying seems like it could be a much more intense form of bullying because it's litterally the one you can't seem to run from. But is this form of high tech bullying any worse than what we had to deal with in person? I mean even profile sites like Facebook give you complete control over what appears on your page. And if that becomes a problem you can always stay anonymous.

I think another issue is that this technology has given kids the illusion of clean slates. They think that the internet has no negative opinion of them. And they find themselves shocked to find out they can't escape reality even for a little bit.

And, the most sad reason of them all, they simply may believe themselves to be some kind of Martyrs. Able to leave video journals and blogs that the world can bare witness to and somehow feel their pain along with them and mourn their loss. Perhaps in some way they feel this is a victory against the bullies.

But in the end, it's bullying. Kids do it. Schools can't stop it. It's going to happen and regardless of where technology goes it's going to follow. Eventually people grow up and the majority of these bullies realize that even they were acting like assholes. Heck. I've already gotten a couple of honest apologies from folks via facebook for how they treated me in highschool. My reply to them? "All is forgiven. We all have regrets on how we acted when we weren't mature enough to act any different. Let's grab a beer some day and laugh about it."
 
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#2
There's bullying and then there's sadism. You can't tell the difference at that age unless you're paying attention, which we adults never seem to do, but the difference later is that the typical bullies do as you said, grow up and feel bad about it, and the sadistic ones don't.

I'm not saying each of these kids was the victim of some other kid consciously attempting to destroy them, but I've seen the sadistic ones. Typical bully punches the kid, the other kind tries to light him on fire. I knew a kid who tried to bomb another kid's house. Most bullies are just troubled themselves, but every now and then, there's a psychopath in the making.
 
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#3
But I don't think that these kids are the targets of the sadistic bullies. Most of them were targets for having an accent or wearing pink in school. One of the primary things I was teased for in school was my ears sticking out. Kids find any reason at all to bully someone. Some may seem harsher than others.
I don't see any evidence that these kids in particular were any different.
 
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#4
If there's some prejudice at work, I don't think a person without such is going to understand what that experience is like.

Obviously I don't think suicide is the answer, but I can't pretend to know what it's like going through school being gay.
 
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#5
True enough. I'm sure going through school, being openly gay, must be one of the most difficult trials a kid would have to go through. He's either accepted or he's not. And if he's not then he is a target with a spotlight on him.
 
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#6
I honestly don't believe that schools can't stop the bullying. They don't bother because the fight is a hard and long but if they took a hard line against the bullying they could stomp it out. But no they continue to take a zero tolerance approach to problems such as drill "guns" in a car parked off school grounds while kids continue to kill themselves.

I hope these deaths will lead to an approach to the bullying problem that isn't slapping kids on the wrist and then not protecting the victims.
 
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#7
I think that schools can, to some degree, discourage bullying. But they will never be able to stop it completely. It's a human trait to want to feel superior to someone. While many bullies may have troubled homes, or aspects of their lives that have lead them to down the path, this is not the case for all of them. I knew several bullies who came from good homes, and were nothing more than slaves of social peer pressure and the thrill of getting a laugh at the expense of another. And as many child psychologists will tell you, you can't use the same technique on every child.
I took bullies into the principals' office all the time. Sometimes the bully received detention. In rare cased he was expelled. What was the result? A more intense hatred of me and desire to gain the upper hand.
The only way to fight a bully is to not let it show that they bother you. It's the only way. Bullies NEED that reaction out of you to justify what they do. Even if that reaction is for you to tell someone. They want to know they are hurting you. And guaranteed, somewhere out there, a bully is nodding his head in silent satisfaction over his target's suicide.
 
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#8
That first story made me seriously angry. The school had been informed of the problem, promised to get involved, and did nothing. Pure negligence. The girls who went up to the casket and laughed about it are monstrous.
 
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#9
The only way to fight a bully is to not let it show that they bother you. It's the only way. Bullies NEED that reaction out of you to justify what they do. Even if that reaction is for you to tell someone. They want to know they are hurting you. And guaranteed, somewhere out there, a bully is nodding his head in silent satisfaction over his target's suicide.
This is actually one of the worst things you can do. By letting them run rough shod over you, you are showing them that you ARE a victim and you WILL take it for as long as they please. It's essentially making you a walking target, because they will only see that messing with you doesn't get them in trouble. They may not get attention from you, but they still get stress relief and your life is still miserable. It's better to fight back and LOSE than it is to do nothing, and this is coming from personal experience.

As for the issue of kids coming on during school... Dan Savage of Savage Love fame just recently started up the It Gets Better Project on Youtube, a repository of video messages from openly gay/bi/whatever adults to kids in that situation. Their message? That it DOES suck to be in that situation and that they know it... but that once you get out of the public systems, life becomes much better... that what they are living with now is only a short period of their life and that they shouldn't decide to end it because they haven't even gotten to the best part yet.
 
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#10
Some of the comments to that news story are absolutely horrible.

Boys should not like to wear pink, therefore, begging to get teased. Their parents should have learned the word, "NO". Anyone who takes their own life is always a selfish dud. Stop trying to find blame. Gays and outcasts should feel the pressure to change for the positive. Peer pressure is what helps us to conform to a standard of living. Americans are wound so tight, make sure everyone plays nice. I say, survival of the fittest. These 4 were not the fittest. People die everyday, get over it.
 
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#11
One thing parents need to teach their kids is that they should always be open about how they feel about these things. There's only so much blame that can be put on others when the kids themselves don't let people know the full extent of their feelings on these things. It seems like in the first girl's case she was vocal about it but in some others, not so much.


It's easy to think that things don't get better when you're 15. High school seemed like the worst 4 years of my life. The only thing that kept me going was the thought that "if this is the worst thing that happens to me I'm doing alright". I was lucky that I wasn't bullied too much. I don't know if I would have been able to take massive amounts of it.

I think the Internet does have something to do with it. It's easier to feel that annonimity even with something like Facebook because you're not physically there. Add to that, most of these kids probably have half the school on their friends list. So if someone were to write something on their wall, everyone who they have in common would see it on their news. Even if you delete it, enough people probably saw it. So what can you do? Block them and give them the satisfaction of getting to you? How many times here have people talked about blocking a forum member is the cowards way out? It's a shit situation honestly. Imagine having to physically deal with some of our online personalities.

Still though, I wish these kids would talk to college students more. I don't think I'd have felt so shitty in high school if I had just -known- that college was a blast. It's part of what is helping me through my current slump. I know that life sucks now because I'm living at home and can't find a job. I know that things will get better though.
 

North_Ranger

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#12
The only way to fight a bully is to not let it show that they bother you. It's the only way. Bullies NEED that reaction out of you to justify what they do. Even if that reaction is for you to tell someone. They want to know they are hurting you. And guaranteed, somewhere out there, a bully is nodding his head in silent satisfaction over his target's suicide.
This is actually one of the worst things you can do. By letting them run rough shod over you, you are showing them that you ARE a victim and you WILL take it for as long as they please. It's essentially making you a walking target, because they will only see that messing with you doesn't get them in trouble. They may not get attention from you, but they still get stress relief and your life is still miserable. It's better to fight back and LOSE than it is to do nothing, and this is coming from personal experience. [/QUOTE]

Seconded and supported as a person who went through systematic bullying all the way to graduation. For me it got to the point where on an orienteering class in PE one of the guys wrestled me down and tried to choke me with a foot lock á la Golden Eye. I swear, I feared he was going to kill me, he just sat there as I choked for breath, staring at me with blank eyes. For me that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I told, and the teacher called all the boys together, telling them he would not tolerate this. I was on seventh grade back then, and it was the first time a teacher actually stood up for me instead of just sending a note home and the principal trying to make the whole thing disappear. It was then I learned a terrifying truth: as we had moved to a bigger school in the town center after the sixth grade, some of the guys in my class had made friends with other boys by telling them I was free game. That no one would defend me if they decided to have a go at me: a chubby, artistic kid with glasses who got good grades.

I tell you, that's a terrifying thing to hear: that people you trusted, people you had known since kindergarten were so willing to sell you out to get to the 'in' crowd. Just because they're small and don't shave, doesn't mean that they can't be as cruel and vicious as any sadist.
 
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#13
I would like to see the removal of Zero Tolerance to Violence in our schools. The bullied kid can not fight back, and if they do they will be in JAIL with the kid that is picking on him. Or a kid like my self would have had a rap-sheet a mile long. When ever I saw a bully pushing around a smaller kid, I would go push the bully around. So if my "White Knight Ass" was in school today I would face JAIL for defending a weaker kid.
 
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#14
It's hard for teachers. We can't catch everything. So much of the bullying takes place outside of the classroom (at least in my experience thus far). Students are reluctant to talk about it. Sometimes, students are doing it right under our noses by disguising their bullying as lighthearted teasing or something, which can be hard for an outsider to pick up.

The one time I thought I had a student being bullied and felt certain enough to say something, the student asked me not to intervene. He swore to me that they were just playing around, that they didn't mean any of it, I didn't need to get involved, etc. I felt terrible (and still do) because I felt powerless; I couldn't be sure one way or the other. If I was wrong I could make it worse. All I could do was keep an eye out, and nothing every came of it again.

I wish I could do more. It's one of my big concerns in the classroom, but so often I feel handcuffed. Sometimes even the students themselves are the ones putting the handcuffs on me.
 
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#15
If you go to the kid to be the adult defender, you're singling the kid out to be hated. That's why they're reluctant to tell you or other teachers about it, and always insist they're just playing.
 
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#16
If you go to the kid to be the adult defender, you're singling the kid out to be hated. That's why they're reluctant to tell you or other teachers about it, and always insist they're just playing.
I know. So what's the solution? What should teachers do instead?
 
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Chazwozel

#17
I delt with bullies pretty easily from gradeschool through high school. Bullies are pussies. They find weaker kids to pick on. Pop them a good one in the nose and see if they ever bother you again? Damn the consequences. My one ear sticks out, and I was teased mercilessly by a couple of bullies in 5th grade. My dad had enough and told me to stand up for myself. I did. I punched one of the fuckers square in the gums. I got 3 days suspension for it, but it was goddamn worth it. If I bully learns you won't put up with his shit and you can expose his weakness, they head for the hills.

Sadly, with bullies it always has to resort to violence. They can't be reasoned with or rationalized. The only way to have it stop is to humiliate them right back.

---------- Post added at 07:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ----------

I would like to see the removal of Zero Tolerance to Violence in our schools. The bullied kid can not fight back, and if they do they will be in JAIL with the kid that is picking on him. Or a kid like my self would have had a rap-sheet a mile long. When ever I saw a bully pushing around a smaller kid, I would go push the bully around. So if my "White Knight Ass" was in school today I would face JAIL for defending a weaker kid.

The fines and suspensions are worth it. My friend in high school was constantly bullied by this one goomba, motherfucker. One day in shop the bully burned my friend's arm with liquid bronze. That's all it took. Geoff snapped. He leaped onto the goomba and wailed on him with a wrench. He was suspended for like a week, but that bully never fucked with him again. Same guy tried to fuck with me once. By this point I assumed people knew not to fuck with me, but I belted him in the gut once to get the point across. I don't think he ever spoke to me again.
 
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#18
One day in shop the bully burned my friend's arm with liquid bronze.
There's one of the sick ones I mentioned.

---------- Post added at 08:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 AM ----------

If you go to the kid to be the adult defender, you're singling the kid out to be hated. That's why they're reluctant to tell you or other teachers about it, and always insist they're just playing.
I know. So what's the solution? What should teachers do instead?[/QUOTE]

I don't know. You can't coddle the bully so he gets shit from the other students, because he'll just take it out on his chosen victim. Really, Chaz has the point. The kid has to show that they themselves won't put up with it, damn the consequences.

Although now that some of the harassment has moved to cyber-bullying, my advice to a kid would be to get off Facebook and go outside.
 
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Chazwozel

#19
The only way to fight a bully is to not let it show that they bother you. It's the only way. Bullies NEED that reaction out of you to justify what they do. Even if that reaction is for you to tell someone. They want to know they are hurting you. And guaranteed, somewhere out there, a bully is nodding his head in silent satisfaction over his target's suicide.
This is actually one of the worst things you can do. By letting them run rough shod over you, you are showing them that you ARE a victim and you WILL take it for as long as they please. It's essentially making you a walking target, because they will only see that messing with you doesn't get them in trouble. They may not get attention from you, but they still get stress relief and your life is still miserable. It's better to fight back and LOSE than it is to do nothing, and this is coming from personal experience. [/QUOTE]

Seconded and supported as a person who went through systematic bullying all the way to graduation. For me it got to the point where on an orienteering class in PE one of the guys wrestled me down and tried to choke me with a foot lock á la Golden Eye. I swear, I feared he was going to kill me, he just sat there as I choked for breath, staring at me with blank eyes. For me that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I told, and the teacher called all the boys together, telling them he would not tolerate this. I was on seventh grade back then, and it was the first time a teacher actually stood up for me instead of just sending a note home and the principal trying to make the whole thing disappear. It was then I learned a terrifying truth: as we had moved to a bigger school in the town center after the sixth grade, some of the guys in my class had made friends with other boys by telling them I was free game. That no one would defend me if they decided to have a go at me: a chubby, artistic kid with glasses who got good grades.

I tell you, that's a terrifying thing to hear: that people you trusted, people you had known since kindergarten were so willing to sell you out to get to the 'in' crowd. Just because they're small and don't shave, doesn't mean that they can't be as cruel and vicious as any sadist.[/QUOTE]


I bet you would have saved yourself a whole shit ton of mental scarring if you learned to stand up for yourself and pop a few black eyes. After being choked like that, the attacker is the free game, not you! You know what you do, kick him square in the fucking teeth.
 

North_Ranger

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#20
I bet you would have saved yourself a whole shit ton of mental scarring if you learned to stand up for yourself and pop a few black eyes. After being choked like that, the attacker is the free game, not you! You know what you do, kick him square in the fucking teeth.
Hindsight's always 20/20, ain't it?
 
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#21
Pretty much agreed with Chaz. Bullies don't stop until you fight back. Kid used to bully me in middle school, lots of trash talk, lots of shoving, ignored it, didn't work.

One day, he stole my stuff. So this time I ran after, tripped him, and slammed him into the wall hard enough to rattle his teeth. He never picked on me again.

Now, I do think you have to differentiate between the kids who "tease" and the kids who "bully". The teasers are you ones who say things when you walk by, but never persist, and you really should just ignore them, because they don't have any actual interest in you, they're just doing the high school thing of trash-talking easy targets in aggro radius, and enjoying the reactions.

The bullies are the ones who persist, and get in your face. They're the ones who often get physical, and like it's been said, you can't ignore the bullies, because it's not just the reactions they want, it's the feeling they get when they do that act.
 
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#22
Got bullied some early in high school. At first I didn't react and then one day in gym class I lost it and jumped the bully and punch him in the face a few times. As he lay on the ground in the fetal position and I towered over him, I begged him to get up and try to give me a hard time again and that this was going to happen again. He ran to the teacher and I got suspended for 2 days. When I came back, the roles were reversed and I made damn sure he and all his "laughing" buddies knew of it.

For the next 4 years no one fucken bothered me. Also the fact I went from being the shortest boy in school at 5'2 to the tallest 6'4 within the same school year possibly helped my cause.

If you don't stand up for yourself, you'll always be the bitch. And if you worry about losing the fight, don't. Just be a lunatic about it, THAT is what sets the mark. Because you don't want people to simply THINK of messing around with you.

PS: I tried to shove the butt of my hockey stick up that bully's ass once while screaming "he shoots he scores" simply because he decided to give a good friend of mine a hard time after I thought him a lesson. Guess what? He learned not to tell the teachers at that point and he sure as hell left my friend alone. I bet that's the exact thought that comes into his mind when he watches hockey.
 
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#23
I would like to see the removal of Zero Tolerance to Violence in our schools. The bullied kid can not fight back, and if they do they will be in JAIL with the kid that is picking on him. Or a kid like my self would have had a rap-sheet a mile long. When ever I saw a bully pushing around a smaller kid, I would go push the bully around. So if my "White Knight Ass" was in school today I would face JAIL for defending a weaker kid.
One of my high school teachers once explained the teacher view on zero tolerance policies to me (when I was bitching about them, of course): Without them, you pretty much have to have a teacher witness what happened to give accurate punishment. Anything besides that is choosing who to believe. You can not know what was said to whom before it got physical, you can not know who threw the first punch, and chances are at least one side will get their friends to lie on their behalf. So if the picked on kid throws a punch, the bully can just grab his buddies, go to his favorite teacher, and report it in a way that makes him the victim. It becomes a game who can report it first, because the no chance in hell the faculty will vocally contradict each other in front of students. Zero tolerance policies (like the one my school had) where ANYONE involved in fisticuffs gets suspended for minimum a day, whether they were seen to throw a punch or not, is the only way to prevent gaming of the system. Speaking from experience, bullies (the same ones who brand their victim a tattle tale if they go to a teacher) are MORE than willing to report the slightest infraction on the part of their victim. It is just another way to fuck them over.
 

North_Ranger

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#24
In all honesty I'm a tad disgusted that people are proposing violence as the only way to stop the bullying. I don't know, maybe it's an American thing, but here we were always told to try and settle our differences in other ways than knocking someone in the face. Hell, not even the bullies would go as low as punching someone in the face. In the gut, maybe, nut not the face. Here, it's considered "stooping to his level" to punch someone - and I can tell you, it would have landed yours truly in trouble if I had. It was the only way to hold a moral high ground to those assholes.
 
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#26
I don't know, maybe it's an American thing, but here we were always told to try and settle our differences in other ways than knocking someone in the face.
Hey, I'm all for alternate solutions (verbally shaming tends to work if you can pull it off), but if they don't work, sometimes you have to be able to take a physical stand.

Hell, not even the bullies would go as low as punching someone in the face.
:confused: I think your breed of bullies is just different.
 
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#27
In all honesty I'm a tad disgusted that people are proposing violence as the only way to stop the bullying. I don't know, maybe it's an American thing, but here we were always told to try and settle our differences in other ways than knocking someone in the face. Hell, not even the bullies would go as low as punching someone in the face. In the gut, maybe, nut not the face. Here, it's considered "stooping to his level" to punch someone - and I can tell you, it would have landed yours truly in trouble if I had. It was the only way to hold a moral high ground to those assholes.

The moral high ground is not getting pushed around for the rest of your days. If you go all Gandhi on a bully's ass... he will just beat and ridicule you more.
 
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#29
In all honesty I'm a tad disgusted that people are proposing violence as the only way to stop the bullying. I don't know, maybe it's an American thing, but here we were always told to try and settle our differences in other ways than knocking someone in the face. Hell, not even the bullies would go as low as punching someone in the face. In the gut, maybe, nut not the face. Here, it's considered "stooping to his level" to punch someone - and I can tell you, it would have landed yours truly in trouble if I had. It was the only way to hold a moral high ground to those assholes.
Didn't sound like that worked out too well for you.
 
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#30
The moral high ground is not getting pushed around for the rest of your days. If you go all Gandhi on a bully's ass... he will just beat and ridicule you more.
The rest of your days? I don't know where you live, but where I'm from petty grade school bullying went out of style by senior year. It just wasn't worth anyone's time. And in college? Hells no, why would you even begin to bother? It gets better. I'd be more worried about an incident where I went "lunatic" on someone and continued beating them even after they were effectively harmless to me. That demonstrates a lack of self control that could back at some point.

Didn't sound like that worked out too well for you.
So is basically becoming the bully via losing self control the definition of "working out well"? Peacefully maintaining who you are as a person, remaining in control, and ultimately being the person with less maturing required is the better long run victory.
 
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#31
So is basically becoming the bully via losing self control the definition of "working out well"?
Stopping someone from bullying you is NOT becoming the bully, it's standing up for yourself. It's about not being a victim and letting those who make you miserable know that you are not interested in their games. You only become the bully if you continue to exert your power over them for any reason other than self defense. In other words, you only become a bully if you keep doing it after they stop.

Peacefully maintaining who you are as a person, remaining in control, and ultimately being the person with less maturing required is the better long run victory.
Except it's clear that not everyone is strong enough to do this. If they were, we wouldn't have dead kids. Maybe if these kids had been able to stand up against the people who tormented them, they'd still be here.
 

North_Ranger

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#32
Except it's clear that not everyone is strong enough to do this. If they were, we wouldn't have dead kids. Maybe if these kids had been able to stand up against the people who tormented them, they'd still be here.
Blaming the victim, Ash? That's classy...
 
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#33
Except it's clear that not everyone is strong enough to do this. If they were, we wouldn't have dead kids. Maybe if these kids had been able to stand up against the people who tormented them, they'd still be here.
Blaming the victim, Ash? That's classy...[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean it as in "they are weak and deserved this". That would be cruel and undeserving for these kids, and I'm actually a bit hurt you thought I suggested it. I'm merely advocating against the current school culture that treats acts of self defense the same as acts of oppression. Things like Zero Tolerance promote an image that it's not OK to defend yourself (if your try to push away the guy who took a swing at you, you get the same punishment) and I personally feel like this is raising a generation of people just waiting to be victimized later in life... and it's all being done to make things easier on the administration.

I know there's no easy way to promote this and I know it doesn't always happen in places where people can help them, but without a way for children to work this kind of thing out on their own, we're just going to see more tragedies.
 
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#34
Didn't sound like that worked out too well for you.
So is basically becoming the bully via losing self control the definition of "working out well"? Peacefully maintaining who you are as a person, remaining in control, and ultimately being the person with less maturing required is the better long run victory.[/QUOTE]

Hmm...

I'd be more worried about an incident where I went "lunatic" on someone and continued beating them even after they were effectively harmless to me. That demonstrates a lack of self control that could back at some point.
Sounds like a personal problem you might wanna look into.

Defending yourself is a conscious choice to stop the bullying, not going apeshit when you can't take it anymore a la Ralphie from A Christmas Story, or Columbine massacre. You make a choice to stop the bullshit and if it stops, you don't continue pushing for dominance. As has been said, bullies are typically cowards. If you're no longer an easy target, they'll go find someone who is.
 
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Chazwozel

#35
In all honesty I'm a tad disgusted that people are proposing violence as the only way to stop the bullying. I don't know, maybe it's an American thing, but here we were always told to try and settle our differences in other ways than knocking someone in the face. Hell, not even the bullies would go as low as punching someone in the face. In the gut, maybe, nut not the face. Here, it's considered "stooping to his level" to punch someone - and I can tell you, it would have landed yours truly in trouble if I had. It was the only way to hold a moral high ground to those assholes.

What other way is there when you're dealing with a bully? How'd settling your differences work out for you (other then being someone's bitch and getting choked)? You said that this continued through high school? Sounds like you should have put your money where your mouth is and knocked a few heads. You're always bragging about your hulking size and intimidating appearance. Why didn't you ever put it to use? Don't give me that "stooping to their level," bullshit. Yeah, you took the moral high ground...

Here you are 15-20 years later and I bet you still remember all the shit you got in high school as if it happened yesterday. I bet your tormentors barely register your face or name on the radar.

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ----------

The moral high ground is not getting pushed around for the rest of your days. If you go all Gandhi on a bully's ass... he will just beat and ridicule you more.
The rest of your days? I don't know where you live, but where I'm from petty grade school bullying went out of style by senior year. It just wasn't worth anyone's time. And in college? Hells no, why would you even begin to bother? It gets better. I'd be more worried about an incident where I went "lunatic" on someone and continued beating them even after they were effectively harmless to me. That demonstrates a lack of self control that could back at some point.

Didn't sound like that worked out too well for you.
So is basically becoming the bully via losing self control the definition of "working out well"? Peacefully maintaining who you are as a person, remaining in control, and ultimately being the person with less maturing required is the better long run victory.[/QUOTE]

No, you're not looking for self-satisfaction through someone's misery - like a bully. You're defending yourself and your right to live your life without being harassed. I don't think anyone 'snapping' and shooting up an entire school ala Columbine is the answer we're suggesting.

---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------

Except it's clear that not everyone is strong enough to do this. If they were, we wouldn't have dead kids. Maybe if these kids had been able to stand up against the people who tormented them, they'd still be here.
Blaming the victim, Ash? That's classy...[/QUOTE]


I only blame the victim if they continue to play the part of the victim. Stand up for yourself and stop being someone's bitch.
 
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