Search forums

Forums

Export thread

The Zoe Quinn sex-for-reviews scandal

Limit: 500

Aug 19, 2014#1

GasBandit

I don't even know where to start with this thing that's just blown up all over reddit, imgur, and various other gaming sites.

Kotaku and Zoe Quinn apparently exchanging sex for positive game reviews. And faking doxx attacks to play the victim card.

As we speak, thousands of reddit comments critical of Quinn have been deleted by the /r/gaming subreddit moderator El Chupacupcake shortly after he solicited contact with Quinn via twitter.

Pop some corn, friends, this is a long and twisted rabbit hole.

Aug 19, 2014#2

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
I don't even know where to start with this thing that's just blown up all over reddit, imgur, and various other gaming sites.

Kotaku and Zoe Quinn apparently exchanging sex for positive game reviews. And faking doxx attacks to play the victim card.

As we speak, thousands of reddit comments critical of Quinn have been deleted by the /r/gaming subreddit moderator El Chupacupcake shortly after he solicited contact with Quinn via twitter.

Pop some corn, friends, this is a long and twisted rabbit hole.

This is going to be bad. We're going to see at least a few firings. Most of them will deserve it.

Aug 19, 2014#3

PatrThom

Saw the comments by TotalBiscuit, but honestly am on the periphery so didn't even find out about it until this morning.

--Patrick

Aug 19, 2014#4

Necronic

Let me give this the appropriate "meh" that she deserved in the first place. She's made what? One game? Who cares what she does.

Aug 19, 2014#5

GasBandit

Necronic said:
Let me give this the appropriate "meh" that she deserved in the first place. She's made what? One game? Who cares what she does.

I know we're all cynical and jaded about the gaming journalism community, but I'd say this definitely crossed a threshold beyond what we'd normally expect from them. Literally quid-pro-quo sex for positive reviews.

But most of the shitstorm seems to be about what happened afterwards - the massive squelch attempt going on right now on Reddit, Neogaf, etc.

Aug 19, 2014#6

AshburnerX

This whole thing makes me sick to my stomache. She appears to be a terrible fucking person, but I don't care about that. I care how it's going to be used as "evidence" of how woman will act in the industry and why they shouldn't be put in charge. I care that it's going to color the opinion of every hiring staff. I care that our industry is going to become worse because of this.

But mostly, I care because now the fucking trolls have someone to parade in front of an audience every time they feel like spouting off their fucking ignorant bullshit. Ugh.

Aug 19, 2014#7

figmentPez

I wonder how many major publishers have hired prostitutes for members of the gaming press in order to get a good review.

Aug 19, 2014#8

AshburnerX

figmentPez said:
I wonder how many major publishers have hired prostitutes for members of the gaming press in order to get a good review.

Considering many publishers don't send out review copies anymore and instead fly people out to a hotel event to show games off under controlled conditions, it's a sure bet that it's happened before. As I've said before, this kind of thing is why I left the industry. We have no journalistic standards, a nepotistic environment is enforced by reporters needing access to do their work, game companies are more than willing to just buy their reviews, and you can't get ANYTHING done unless you have friends in the industry, but those same friends will throw you under the bus once they get what they want. It's toxic and there are only three ways to get into the industry...

- Be rich enough to start your own studio
- Know someone who works at or owns a studio
- Suck a cock, ether metaphorically or actually.

Any other method is ether going to have you grinding your wheels for years or get you the kind of position that gets you fired at the end of every dev cycle.

Aug 19, 2014#9

CynicismKills

What a fucking trainwreck. Oh and look, Phil "suck my dick, choke on it" Fish weighed in but then put his Twitter on followers only. This whole industry needs a hard reboot, it's become such a fucking mess.

Aug 19, 2014#10

Frank

http://thezoepost.wordpress.com/

http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/

So, she's a shitty, maniupulative person.

Zoe Quinn is also VERY, VERY right about a lot of things she says on her blog.

Aug 19, 2014#11

Jay

For those of you who are confused... this video clears everything up pretty well.

Aug 19, 2014#12

GasBandit

I'm not sure I believe her, given that she's fabricated "attacks" on herself before to get visibility/sympathy as a victim of the big bad internet.

Aug 19, 2014#13

Frank

https://twitter.com/stephentotilo the boss of Kotaku's tweets about Grayson.[DOUBLEPOST=1408495906,1408495314][/DOUBLEPOST]

Jay said:
For those of you who are confused... this video clears everything up pretty well.

Jeez, this video gets really gross with a lot of baseless accusations.

Aug 19, 2014#14

Jay

It's a good recap... but it's quite opinionated indeed.

Also having sex with Phil Fish? Jeez.

Aug 19, 2014#15

Frank

Jay said:
It's a good recap... but it's quite opinionated indeed.

Also having sex with Phil Fish? Jeez.

The first 1/2 of it is a good recap, then he goes way off the rails.

Aug 19, 2014#16

GasBandit

Frank said:
https://twitter.com/stephentotilo the boss of Kotaku's tweets about Grayson.

Unsurprising that he'd circle the wagons when it's his train catching fire. Zero credibility. "I trust him, so should you." Give me a break. Kotaku's been plainly going downhill and in somebody's pocket for a while now, at least now the light is on and we can see the roaches scurrying for cover.

Jeez, this video gets really gross with a lot of baseless accusations.

More like raises a lot of valid questions. The credibility of games journalism (tattered as it was already) and the indie development scene might not recover for years from this.

Aug 19, 2014#17

Frank

GasBandit said:
Unsurprising that he'd circle the wagons when it's his train catching fire. Zero credibility. "I trust him, so should you." Give me a break. Kotaku's been plainly going downhill and in somebody's pocket for a while now, at least now the light is on and we can see the roaches scurrying for cover.

More like raises a lot of valid questions. The credibility of games journalism (tattered as it was already) and the indie development scene might not recover for years from this.

Saying, "Maybe he slept with she or she slept with he." like he does isn't raising questions, it's feeding bullshit rumours that have no basis anywhere.

Aug 19, 2014#18

GasBandit

Frank said:
Saying, "Maybe he slept with she or she slept with he." like he does isn't raising questions, it's feeding bullshit rumours that have no basis anywhere.

You're right, clearly there's no way a woman who used sex to get ahead 5 times would do it a 6th or 7th time.

Aug 19, 2014#19

Dave

I've read all about it and I still don't give a shit. Someone sleeping to get ahead in a nepotistic industry? No way!

Aug 19, 2014#20

AshburnerX

Zoe's assertion that this is a private matter... no, it's not. Her actions conflicted with both the ethics of her profession and lead to a conspiracy that not only gave her an unfair advantage in promoting her work... it not only silenced voices in opposition of her work but was responsible for destroying the work of others who have similar aims. We're talking major fraud here. People's work was lost to line her pockets and thrust her into the limelight. And her cries that she's still planning to work towards a future were women don't need to worry about this exposure ring hollow when the only reason what she did was wrong was because she did it for professional gain. Anyone who would judge her for wanting to sleep around is an asshole, but judging her for the favors she curried out of those exploits is a fundamental part of ethics.

To quote Huey Freeman "Whatever happened to standards? What ever happened to bare minimums?". We deserve the message of female empowerment to be delivered by someone better than this. Give me Anita Sarkesian any day over this woman. I may think her work is shoddy, but at least I don't doubt that she actually cares about this enough to walk the walk.

Aug 20, 2014#21

Frank

Dave said:
I've read all about it and I still don't give a shit. Someone sleeping to get ahead in a nepotistic industry? No way!

And the shit Grayson is getting is beyond stupid. His only article mentioning her game was a large article listing a bunch of games that were greenlit by Steam. He didn't even do any kind of preview shit.

This whole debacle is embarrassing as a whole for everyone involved and everyone who cares too much what her vagina has apparently corrupted.

The whole fucking thing that has sprouted out around this "controversy" is grotesque.

Aug 20, 2014#22

SpecialKO

Full disclosure: I'm acquainted with some of the peripheral parties involved, though neither Zoe nor her ex.

This is going to sound Charlie-esque, but I'm deeply uncomfortable with how this conversation is being framed (more elsewhere than here, but here has a little bit of it, too).

Accusing a woman of trading sex for promotion, not just using existing personal relationships to put herself in a better position but phrasing it as sex-for-trade, without absolute proof is an intensely gendered personal attack. It's something that women who attempt to succeed in traditionally male industries are subjected to, regardless of actual culpability, on a regular basis, and it is often used to downplay and diminish the role of individual women or women as a whole in that industry. There is an extremely clear agenda in making "sex-for-trade" part of the discussion, because once you make it about leveraging personal ties, it becomes merely incestuous and mildly distasteful in the popular discourse instead of THE WORST THING EVER that some people are trying to push it as.

The games industry *is* intensely nepotistic and incestuous. It is really small considering the money involved, and people are constantly changing their precise relationship to it. Games journalists often want to *be* developers and developers often want to *be* populist bloggers, so the interrelationships can get extremely messy. The indie-scene is actually even messier *because* its full of former AAA-studio people and former games journalists (and tons of VC money) coming together to try and make something, so every relationship those people bring to the table gets tied up and tangled with everyone else's. Throw in the fact that this is an industry where major publishers pay thousands of dollars to fly journalists out, put them in a nice hotel, and treat them to a 5-star media presentation performance to show off a game for two days, and it is pretty clear why games journalism is generally shoddy and fawning.

Even if someone found a chat conversation where Zoe specifically asked Nathan G. to write a review in exchange for sexual favors, the pearl-clutching reaction to it is incredibly out of proportion to what is actually happening.

Aug 20, 2014#23

PatrThom

SpecialKO said:
[practically a movie script]

All it needs now is the Morgan Spurlock treatment ("Supervise Me," perhaps?).

--Patrick

Aug 20, 2014#24

AshburnerX

SpecialKO said:
Accusing a woman of trading sex for promotion, not just using existing personal relationships to put herself in a better position but phrasing it as sex-for-trade, without absolute proof is an intensely gendered personal attack. It's something that women who attempt to succeed in traditionally male industries are subjected to, regardless of actual culpability, on a regular basis, and it is often used to downplay and diminish the role of individual women or women as a whole in that industry. There is an extremely clear agenda in making "sex-for-trade" part of the discussion, because once you make it about leveraging personal ties, it becomes merely incestuous and mildly distasteful in the popular discourse instead of THE WORST THING EVER that some people are trying to push it as.

The appearance of impropriety is impropriety exactly because of how difficult it is to prove. Yes, it's true... short of an image of her having sex with one of the involved or a transcript of her requesting favors for said intercourse, it may be impossible to prove conclusively that this is what went down... but that doesn't make the relationships of everyone involved unprofessional and questionable, and it's ON THEM that any of this happened. It's the kind of thing that would get you fired in any other profession, ESPECIALLY journalism.

And you can't make this "merely" about leveraging personal relationships once sex becomes involved. This isn't a father giving his child a well paid position over someone's who has actually put the time and effort into the company. This is someone who entered into a series of relationships with the people who could advance her career best at the most opportune moment for her do so. One would be a coincidence. Five is not.

Aug 20, 2014#25

SpecialKO

AshburnerX said:
It's the kind of thing that would get you fired in any other profession, ESPECIALLY journalism.

Only one person actually involved is a journalist, there isn't the slightest proof of anything (even overly favorable coverage), and his boss is clearly fine with whatever the explanation actually is. This won't change anyone's opinion of Kotaku, and it takes place in an industry where everyone, fans and industry people alike, already acknowledge that journalists are massively and openly influenced by the makers of games. All that's left is to try and publicly shame her for her choices in how she uses her relationships and the way everyone has been phrasing it is much closer to slut-shaming than anything suggesting real concern over the state of games journalism.

AshburnerX said:
This is someone who entered into a series of relationships with the people who could advance her career best at the most opportune moment for her do so. One would be a coincidence. Five is not.

So? Did she sign a purity pledge before joining the industry? At the most, assuming its all true (which I would really caution against), that makes her an emotionally manipulative careerist, which is pretty far from unique in *any* industry.

Aug 20, 2014#26

GasBandit

I'm sure that injustices are everywhere is a great comfort to MundaneMatt and the Fine Young Capitalists game jam organizer she doxxed.

Aug 20, 2014#27

SpecialKO

GasBandit said:
I'm sure that injustices are everywhere is a great comfort to MundaneMatt and the Fine Young Capitalists game jam organizer she doxxed.

And that's bad, if true. And it has absolutely nothing to do with her sex life.

Aug 20, 2014#28

Dave

I asked this on Reddit and got downvoted. She's called a game dev. Has she ever developed a game that was published or gained any sort of traction? Why should I know her or care?

Aug 20, 2014#29

Adam

It's just a bad breakup that became public. Gender politics aside, it's not that big of a deal and will swiftly smooth over.

(And the poor guy is completely and utterly too immature to be dealing with this in a public fashion)

Aug 20, 2014#30

GasBandit

Dave said:
I asked this on Reddit and got downvoted. She's called a game dev. Has she ever developed a game that was published or gained any sort of traction? Why should I know her or care?

She got a poorly reviewed (at least, poorly reviewed among people who don't know her personally, euphemism ahoy) text-based game released on steam via Greenlight called Depression Quest. Before this, the only other time I'd heard of her was in (ironically) Nathan @ Kotaku's write-up of the Game Jam that went south because the mountain dew guy kept trying to manufacture drama between her and Jontron.

Remember this?

http://indiestatik.com/2014/03/31/most-expensive-game-jam/

Aug 20, 2014#31

Dave

But why is she called a game dev? I've yet to see a game she actually got past the "this is my idea give me money" phase.[DOUBLEPOST=1408563014,1408562888][/DOUBLEPOST]A text based game? Really? :rofl:

Wow.

Aug 20, 2014#32

SpecialKO

Dave said:
I asked this on Reddit and got downvoted. She's called a game dev. Has she ever developed a game that was published or gained any sort of traction? Why should I know her or care?

There's a side of the indie scene that is tied to GameJam hobbyists (i.e. folks who travel around the country using GameJams to network and build connections). She's fairly prominent among them, made more so by some of the attention that her blog gets writing about feminist issues in the gaming industry, and released one game on Greenlight that isn't especially notable for anything.

So if you don't follow that scene, it's unlikely you should know her.

Aug 20, 2014#33

Frank

Dave said:
But why is she called a game dev? I've yet to see a game she actually got past the "this is my idea give me money" phase.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/270170/

Aug 20, 2014#34

Dave

Frank said:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/270170/

Yeah, no. That is like pouring beer at a college frat party and putting down on your resume that you are a bartender.

Aug 20, 2014#35

GasBandit

The Kim Kardashian of the game dev world. Only Kim has an actual game out.

Aug 20, 2014#36

AshburnerX

SpecialKO said:
So? Did she sign a purity pledge before joining the industry? At the most, assuming its all true (which I would really caution against), that makes her an emotionally manipulative careerist, which is pretty far from unique in *any* industry.

GasBandit said:
I'm sure that injustices are everywhere is a great comfort to MundaneMatt and the Fine Young Capitalists game jam organizer she doxxed.

Basically this. @SpecialKO, if your excuse for people doing unethical things is that unethical things happen all the time and are rarely punished, so it's not a big deal... then you've missed the point entirely.

Aug 20, 2014#37

Frank

http://patrickklepek.tumblr.com/pos...-youve-been-asked-already-but-how-do-you-feel

Aug 20, 2014#38

Adam

Ye gods, I'm not a big fan of the idea of trigger warnings and all that SJW stuff, but reading the ex-bf's blog is like reliving the last year of my marriage. *shudder*

Edit: Not looking for any particular support on this, but it does reaffirm that not only is infidelity one of the worst things you can do to someone you care about, but gaslighting about it is going to be a major cause of psychological breakdown in the person. DON'T DO IT. Have the balls/ovaries to tell the truth about your mess.

Second Edit: STOP HUGGING ME FUCKERS!

Aug 20, 2014#39

SpecialKO

AshburnerX said:
Basically this. @SpecialKO, if your excuse for people doing unethical things is that unethical things happen all the time and are rarely punished, so it's not a big deal... then you've missed the point entirely.

When you declare those unethical things THE WORST THING EVER and THE REASON WHY GAMING JOURNALISM IS AWFUL, explicitly ignoring the much greater unethical things contributing to the situation at hand (gaming journalism's incestuous relationship with the actual industry), then you're involved in pushing the agenda that this matters more than everything else.

The video posted in this thread (which I will remind you is titled "The Zoe Quinn Sex For Reviews Scandal", despite that being complete conjecture based on pretty much nothing), and the other video currently posted on Reddit and being represented as accurate summaries of the situation are entirely driven by the desire to use Zoe's personal life as an example of the insidious march of social justice and feminism in gaming journalism, which is then represented as why gaming journalism sucks now.

If this thread had been titled, "Zoe Quinn abuses social media and DCMA takedowns to silence critics", that would at least have been talking about actual problems that is different from the way it is being framed everywhere else.

Aug 20, 2014#40

AshburnerX

SpecialKO said:
When you declare those unethical things THE WORST THING EVER and THE REASON WHY GAMING JOURNALISM IS AWFUL, explicitly ignoring the much greater unethical things contributing to the situation at hand (gaming journalism's incestuous relationship with the actual industry), then you're involved in pushing the agenda that this matters more than everything else.

You mean that thing I talk about every other fucking time the industry makes a joke of itself? I can forgive you for not knowing, but pointing out the fucking insidious and unethical nature of the industry at every opportunity is kind of my thing. It's why I stopped being part of the industry. Once you get blacklisted by a few companies because you won't play ball on reviews, the only thing you CAN do is point out how fucking sick the whole thing is.

Regardless, you are using the Gaza Defense here and badly I might add. Pointing out that there are other, greater injustices in the industry doesn't mean that her ethical breach is any less severe or widespread. Is this the worst thing that's ever happened in GARME JURNALIZM? No, but it happened during one of the most important battles we've faced yet as an industry and, like it or not, she was one of the bigger names... and because of her actions the fight for inclusivity is diminished. This was a time when we needed more positive female icons to lead that fight, not for one to seemingly show that all the fears of the fucking reddit retards were (seemingly) justified. What the hell was she thinking?

Oh, and FUCK those assholes that are posting nude photos of her, sending her death threats, giving out her address, or just generally increasing the chances that she will be harmed. I may detest the ethics of this woman, but anyone who would hurt her over this needs fucking help. I shouldn't even NEED to say that.

Aug 20, 2014#41

GasBandit

Adam said:
Second Edit: STOP HUGGING ME FUCKERS!

You get the fist whether you like it or not.

Aug 20, 2014#42

SpecialKO

AshburnerX said:
Pointing out that there are other, greater injustices in the industry doesn't mean that her ethical breach is any less severe or widespread.

Which individual breach are you referring to? Her social media bullying or her sex life? Only one of them is used in the title of thread and as a way of framing the discussion, and only one of them has something resembling actual proof.

because of her actions the fight for inclusivity is diminished.

I'd say the fight for inclusivity was diminished a lot more by people using her sex life to attack journalists writing about the game industry's relationship with women and feminism.

Oh, and FUCK those assholes that are posting nude photos of her, sending her death threats, giving out her address, or just generally increasing the chances that she will be harmed. I may detest the ethics of this woman, but anyone who would hurt her over this needs fucking help. I shouldn't even NEED to say that.

I don't believe you and I disagree on that.[DOUBLEPOST=1408569938,1408569802][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
You get the fist whether you like it or not.

Aug 20, 2014#43

Espy

Man, this just sounds like the nutso "men's rights" crowd was thrown a branch and are desperately trying to start a bonfire. Most of the reactions I've seen around the web have been pretty horribly misogynistic. I'm disappointed but not surprised at a lot of the gaming/nerd community.

Aug 20, 2014#44

GasBandit

It probably wouldn't have blown up so big if there hadn't been such a conspiracy to squelch it. I didn't even hear about it until news of the reddit moderators deleting tens of thousands of comment posts spilled over into imgur. You'd think if anybody knew about the Streisand effect, it'd be social-media savvy indie devs/gaming journalists.

Aug 20, 2014#45

Espy

Thats really weird. Must have been friends of hers or something?

Aug 20, 2014#46

Adam

Just found this out, but I don't think you can complain about people posting your nude photos everywhere...

...when you have them on a !@#%^ing pay site for people to buy. What you really should be complaining about is that people pirated them and didn't pay for them.

For research purposes (obviously NSFW): http://www.brokendollz.com/dollz/doll_join_profile.php?iddoll=73

Stay away @Jay! Don't need any of your misogny here!

Aug 20, 2014#47

Dave

Ew.

Aug 20, 2014#48

GasBandit

I really hope this doesn't devolve into critiquing her appearance, and we can just continue to focus on what a terrible person she is and how her actions have harmed gaming.

Aug 20, 2014#49

Jay

Jesus christ.. a fedora?

Aug 20, 2014#50

Adam

Well, I'd say that complaining about people posting your nudes everywhere when you're the one who posted them online is part of the whole 'terrible person' thing.

Aug 20, 2014#51

GasBandit

Adam said:
Well, I'd say that complaining about people posting your nudes everywhere when you're the one who posted them online is part of the whole 'terrible person' thing.

She does manufacture her own victimhood in a number of ways.

On the other hand, the leaking of paid nudes sort of seems to cross over into the "which crime is it if a prostitute agrees to have sex with you for money and then you skip out on the bill" philosophical territory.

Aug 20, 2014#52

Jay

I'll be honest, paid nude pics? I'd sympathize if this an ex putting her naked pics up or someone taking someone's "liberated pics" out of context... but a paying site? Ich.

Aug 20, 2014#53

Adam

From her Blog (Tumblr?) http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/95188657119/once-again-i-will-not-negotiate-with-terrorists

What I *am* going to say is that the proliferation of nude pictures of me, death threats, vandalization, doxxing of my trans friends for having the audacity to converse with me publicly, harassment of friends and family and my friends’ family in addition to TOTALLY UNRELATED PEOPLE, sending my home address around, rape threats, memes about me being a whore, pressures to kill myself, slurs of every variety, fucking debates over what my genitals smell like, vultures trying to make money off of youtube videos about it, all of these things are inexcusable and will continue to happen to women until this culture changes.

Because I’ve had a small degree of success in a specific subculture, every aspect of my life is suddenly a matter of public concern. Suddenly it’s acceptable to share pictures of my breasts on social media to threaten and punish me. Suddenly I don’t have any right to privacy or basic dignity.

My life and my body are not public property. No one’s life and body are public property.

Sexuality is one of the most personal, hurtful, and easy things to demonize a woman over, and also has nothing to do with my games.

As much as those leading the charge against me will do mental backflips to make posting pictures of my tits about “ethics”, the real agenda is plain as day if you give it even a moment of sincere critical thought. No one who would terrorize someone and the totally uninvolved people they love in this way on such a massive and public scale could ever honestly claim to be interested in “ethics” of any kind.

If I had a body worth doing porn for and was a public figure, uhhh, I still wouldn't do porn.

Aug 20, 2014#54

Jay

How exactly are these pictures private property when she sold them to an online website? People sign off these pictures don't they? Did I read the numbers wrong? This isn't a few images... there's like 300 of them!

She's a huckster. A genuine one I have no sympathies for.

Aug 20, 2014#55

Ravenpoe

Adam said:
From her Blog (Tumblr?) http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/95188657119/once-again-i-will-not-negotiate-with-terrorists

If I had a body worth doing porn for and was a public figure, uhhh, I still wouldn't do porn.

If people would pay to see me naked, I'd do it. Best I can do right now though is a subscription service where I promise to keep my clothes on.

Aug 20, 2014#56

Adam

Ravenpoe said:
If people would pay to see me naked, I'd do it. Best I can do right now though is a subscription service where I promise to keep my clothes on.

Where can I donate???

Aug 20, 2014#57

Hailey Knight

Jay said:
How exactly are these pictures private property when she sold them to an online website? People sign off these pictures don't they? Did I read the numbers wrong? This isn't a few images... there's like 300 of them!

She's a huckster. A genuine one I have no sympathies for.

Well, yeah, but those guys are pirating them

Aug 20, 2014#58

Frank

There's no doubt she's a shitty person.

What I doubt was the whole sex for reviews thing.

I still think this is a dumb thread only tangentially related to video games in the first place.

Aug 20, 2014#59

Tinwhistler

I have no skin in this game. I didn't know anything about Quinn before yesterday, and I don't read online gaming rags. So, my thoughts:

I don't think this is quite the Watergate-level scandal some people are trying to make it out to be. There doesn't seem to be as much payola as was originally implied. If she was indeed fucking her way into indie game success, that should be noted and slightly newsworthy, but at the moment, it appears that if such was her intent, she's not doing a great job of it.
People have always slept their way to the middle--they almost never make it to the top that way. More girls than guys, maybe, but it's not a female-only tactic.
If she cheated with 5 guys (burger and fries), that makes her a pretty crappy person, but there are no shortage of those in the world. What's it got to do with me?
If she wants to slut around, more power to her. I've done my fair share of it myself. Ideally, she should get into some kind of swinging or open relationship where that's accepted and expected, rather than breaking some poor dude's heart.
I could care less about other people's personal/sexual problems, and don't really think it's appropriate to air such dirty laundry.
She's kind of a public figure. Unfortunately, these kinds of things happen and are expected when you make yourself a public figure. The world loves watching a train wreck.
Her nudie pics aren't too hard on the eyes.

Aug 21, 2014#60

PatrThom

Adam said:
Just found this out, but I don't think you can complain about people posting your nude photos everywhere...
...when you have them on a !@#%^ing pay site for people to buy. What you really should be complaining about is that people pirated them and didn't pay for them.

For research purposes (obviously NSFW): http://www.brokendollz.com/dollz/doll_join_profile.php?iddoll=73

What the...these are not photos of @Adam ! I feel cheated for clicking.

--Patrick

Aug 21, 2014#61

Charlie Don't Surf

Why does every fucking stupid knuckle-dragging man feel like they have to comment on her looks? No one on earth fucking gives a shit if you think she's attractive or not. Oh god, the conversation can't continue until everyone knows if I'd fuck her or not, better jump in with my hot take.

That being said I agree with pretty much everything @SpecialKO and @Espy said , sorry I'm on your side, please don't reconsider your beliefs now

also lol at "not being a big fan of trigger warnings"

Aug 21, 2014#62

AshburnerX

I can't believe I have to defend such a shitty person BUT... the fact that she' selling nude images of herself has no real baring on my opinion that she has shown a surprising lack of ethics. Yes, taken with everything else she's done so far it's just more fuel on the fire that is the Zoey Quinn brand and her obvious need to be at the center of attention, but selling naked pictures of yourself is neither illegal, immoral, or unethical. It's just not important and has no relation to her actions to advance herself in the industry.

If anything, it's probably some empowering, pro-feminism angle. She wants to own her body, so she's setting the terms on which people may see it. It's only when taken with every other horrible thing she's done that it seems remotely skeezy. If she hadn't done the rest of it, (rational) people wouldn't be using it to attack her.

Aug 21, 2014#63

DarkAudit

Another thread, another Charlie going...

The topic at hand holds no interest. I'm just tired of thread after thread becoming a Charlie outhouse.

Aug 21, 2014#64

Tinwhistler

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Why does every fucking stupid knuckle-dragging man feel like they have to comment on her looks? No one on earth fucking gives a shit if you think she's attractive or not.

c'mon charlie. Tell us how you really feel.

Aug 21, 2014#65

Hailey Knight

DarkAudit said:
Another thread, another Charlie going...

The topic at hand holds no interest. I'm just tired of thread after thread becoming a Charlie outhouse.

So, Charlie's the troll in this thread for commenting on the subject at hand, but you, admittedly having no interest in this topic, come in to complain that he posted in it?

I don't really feel this is news. So she used sex to get better reviews--it doesn't feel any different than EA and its ilk paying IGN and the rest for good reviews. Reviewers can get fired for not going along with that. EA's shitty treatment of what are essentially its temp employees was more relevant years ago and still is today. I don't trust big site reviews for big games--they're always going to get a 9 or so regardless of how shitty they are. Breaking it down like this for a smaller title, it's just a continuation of the same problem. If she had paid for the reviews, it'd be the same issue, so it doesn't matter.

New thread title: Gaming journalism continues exactly as it has been for the last several years.

Aug 21, 2014#66

Tinwhistler

DarkAudit said:
Another thread, another Charlie going...

The topic at hand holds no interest. I'm just tired of thread after thread becoming a Charlie outhouse.

Charlie's a bit like Zoe Quinn (to keep things topical) or any other random narcissistic attention whore that you could think of. The less he's the center of attention, and the less his opinion gets to frame the moral structure of the conversation, the louder he gets and the more shit he flings.

He's a special snowflake, and hasn't really learned yet that the world really doesn't revolve around him. It's a bit funny and sad at the same time.

Aug 21, 2014#67

Hailey Knight

Tinwhistler said:
c'mon charlie. Tell us how you really feel.

Well, he's right that persons' opinions on her looks are irrelevant and throwing it into the issue is the kind of crap I see in Youtube comments when I make the mistake of scrolling down from the video because I'm a fucking idiot sometimes. I haven't clicked any of the links though, so I didn't see it happening.

Aug 21, 2014#68

Frank

Zero Esc said:
So she used sex to get better reviews--it doesn't feel any different than EA and its ilk paying IGN and the rest for good reviews.

Except she didn't. That was some baseless nonsense from that video Jay posted.

Aug 21, 2014#69

Hailey Knight

Frank said:
Except she didn't. That was some baseless nonsense from that video Jay posted.

Oh, I didn't click on that.

Then ... thread ... over?

Aug 21, 2014#70

Tinwhistler

Zero Esc said:
Well, he's right that persons' opinions on her looks are irrelevant and throwing it into the issue is the kind of crap I see in Youtube comments when I make the mistake of scrolling down from the video because I'm a fucking idiot sometimes. I haven't clicked any of the links though, so I didn't see it happening.

I totally agree that her looks are irrelevant to the 'scandal', sure. I can't speak to Youtube comments, since I adblock-plus the fuck out of those. They're not irrelevant to the side-conversation of her having made professional n00dz. And they're not really irrelevant to idle side-chatter.

I don't really get the impression that Youtube comments were what CDS was referring to, though, since his vitriol came immediately after I mentioned that her pics weren't too hard on the eyes, and as far as I know, I'm the only one who made any kind of value judgement on them in this thread. But just like any petulant child, CDS doesn't get to have his way, just because he can be louder and more obnoxious than the rest of us.

I personally couldn't give two flying fucks about what topic of interest is going to get Charlie's panties in a wad on any particular day, and I'm certainly not going to allow his whining (potential or real) censor my speech or opinions.

Aug 21, 2014#71

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't want to censor anyone, and I've never wanted someone's posts edited or banned really for anything other than blatant slurs. Just pointing it out so maybe you think before you say stuff like that, since it doesn't make the most inviting / safe place for women when every conversation about any woman includes multiple judgments on if they're fuckable or not. Like someone said earlier, that's youtube comments grade bullshit. I wouldn't be posting here if that was standard.

edit: adding another thing - My original comment was mainly just upset at the internet at large, but there were also a couple here that spurred it too

Aug 21, 2014#72

Bubble181

I don't care about her posting naked pictures of her on line. People pirating them are no better or worse than anyone pirating any porn, though, and considering the content of the NSFW board ,we've all done that

If she slept with a journalist to get better reviews, frankly, that's not much better or worse than the big AAA developers with their booth babes up 'till a few years ago - some of them were literally cosplaying prostitutes paid to "convince" the right people, and even those who aren't/weren,'t were there with the express purpose to make people think better of the game they're attached to. Using your looks or someone else's looks to get ahead isn't new, or rare, or anything. I don't think it's right, mind you, but it's nothing special, and if I had to slap everyone who ever slept with someone to get ahead, 'd have a bloody sore hand. And fuck, half of the indie developers would probably gladly fuck someone if it meant their game got released with good reviews.
What I do take objection to is her and friends trying to squash down the stories - it doesn't usually work anymore these days ,and it comes off as trying to hide your own issues....plus, it actively damages the work of others.
As for the whole mysoginy thing, eh. It's a shame she "gave" the "opposition" more ammo in the whole "women in games, right" debate if you want to call it that. but whether any of this is actually *true* doesn't make a lot of difference there.

I don't care whether or not she slept with some guys in exchange for reviews - pop stars have done it, movie actresses and actors have done it, directors have done it, fuck, I'm fairly sure my last boss did it. I do care that other people's work was hidden, deleted, or put down to protect her. Whether that was just nepotism or sex-based favor returns doesn't really factor in.

Aug 21, 2014#73

Dave

What I think is funny is that every guy who says the situation isn't about sex only talks about the sex. The five guys thing was from that video where the guy said he didn't care about the sex but goes on and on and on...

As to her looks, my "ew" was about that very thing. I think she's comic store cute but that's about it. Sue me. You put out naked pictures of yourself, I'm well within my rights to comment about the pictures.

Aug 21, 2014#74

Tinwhistler

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Just pointing it out so maybe you think before you say stuff like that, since it doesn't make the most inviting / safe place for women when every conversation about any woman includes multiple judgments on if they're fuckable or not.

(Shrug) If you don't want someone to comment on your n00dz, don't post them. That simple. I seriously doubt that my comment ("Her nudie pics aren't too hard on the eyes.") makes for a hostile environment for women on this forum.

Sizing up someone (opposite or same gender, depending on your preferences) is a non-gender-specific human trait that has existed since the dawn of man, and will continue long after you're dead. You're pissing in the wind simply for the sake of white knighting and shitting up another thread. Go bark up someone else's tree.

Aug 21, 2014#75

bhamv3

Y'know, I feel like even though she put her pics online herself, she's still entitled to feel upset when people distribute and look at them when she doesn't want them to. She may have no legal or practical way of stopping people from looking and distributing, but I can completely understand feeling violated over it.

Sort of like, "There are certain people I've given tacit permission to view my nude pics, and all of you guys aren't on the list."

Aug 21, 2014#76

Just Me

Tinwhistler said:
(Shrug) I seriously doubt that my comment ("Her nudie pics aren't too hard on the eyes.") makes for a hostile environment for women on this forum.

Aren't we all rooting for @Docseverin whenever he's near (and dear) and he still comes back?

Aug 21, 2014#77

figmentPez

bhamv3 said:
Y'know, I feel like even though she put her pics online herself, she's still entitled to feel upset when people distribute and look at them when she doesn't want them to. She may have no legal or practical way of stopping people from looking and distributing, but I can completely understand feeling violated over it.

Sort of like, "There are certain people I've given tacit permission to view my nude pics, and all of you guys aren't on the list."

There's a big difference between "people are violating copyright law by pirating my autobiography, when they should be purchasing a copy from Amazon" and "people are violating my privacy by downloading my personal diary, which was never intended for distribution."

Aug 21, 2014#78

Necronic

I have to admit that this conversation (not just here) does more to remind me of the rampant immaturity and sexism in gaming/geekdom than it makes me worried about a breach of journalism ethics.

Like I said in my first post. This "developer" has no actual development footprint. She doesn't actually matter. But because she's a woman perceptions get all screwed up, in many different ways. We think she's some important anchor in the indie dev community. She's not. Then we get super aggressively butt hurt about what, in the real world of journalism, is absolutely a breach of ethics but not the worst in the world. Yet because it's a woman it's HUGE FUCKING NEWS.

And then there's the nudes. Same thing happened with Mintchip from EvE. In this case it's a bit different because she supplied them. But we demanded them. We always demand them. Whenever we read a story about how Phil Fish is a cocksucker do we immediately go look to see if he's got a crew cut or a turtleneck down below?

This last point may be less about gaming, I think we do this for any woman in the public light, but still.

I can't put my finger on it exactly but this whole thing just does more to make me think how fucked up the men are in this community than it makes me worry about declining ethical standards.

Aug 21, 2014#79

GasBandit

Necronic said:
Like I said in my first post. This "developer" has no actual development footprint. She doesn't actually matter. But because she's a woman perceptions get all screwed up, in many different ways. We think she's some important anchor in the indie dev community. She's not. Then we get super aggressively butt hurt about what, in the real world of journalism, is absolutely a breach of ethics but not the worst in the world. Yet because it's a woman it's HUGE FUCKING NEWS.

I disagree, it'd still have been news if it was a man using personal relationships to try to stepladder his career, torpedoing other projects for causes he purports to champion, abusing DMCA takedowns, and manufacturing fake internet "attacks" on himself to drum up sympathy/support/publicity, all while having no actual talent or skill in the area in which he's claiming to have a career.

Aug 21, 2014#80

Tinwhistler

Necronic said:
And then there's the nudes. Same thing happened with Mintchip from EvE. In this case it's a bit different because she supplied them. But we demanded them. We always demand them. Whenever we read a story about how Phil Fish is a cocksucker do we immediately go look to see if he's got a crew cut or a turtleneck down below?

If it were a dude, I'd have gone and looked anyway. I don't think it has anything to do with "this community" than it has to do with "people wanna see nudes of people they've heard of." And it's not a problem specific to men, though we are likely the greater offenders. It's certainly not some character flaw specific to gamers.

Honestly, if someone said there were nudes of you on some website, I'd go look. How many non-interested people clicked on that prank link I posted so long ago, where I was joking about showing my dick? I can guarantee that forumites of both genders did.

bhamv3 said:
Y'know, I feel like even though she put her pics online herself, she's still entitled to feel upset when people distribute and look at them when she doesn't want them to. She may have no legal or practical way of stopping people from looking and distributing, but I can completely understand feeling violated over it.

I have less compunction about viewing Ms. Quinn's nudes than I had viewing Scarlett Johansson's. With Scarlett's, they were a clear violation of privacy: They weren't intended for any kind of mass distribution--they were private pics swiped from her email/phone. And yet, like millions of other people (including many of us here), I looked at them. Ms. Quinn is mostly bitching that her pay-for-play private pics have gotten leaked all over, and I have no real sympathy. Porn piracy is rampant on the internet. I mean, really, who pays for porn these days?

Mostly, I think the whole thing is a big mountain out of a molehill.

Aug 21, 2014#81

Dave

GasBandit said:
I disagree, it'd still have been news if it was a man using personal relationships to try to stepladder his career, torpedoing other projects for causes he purports to champion, abusing DMCA takedowns, and manufacturing fake internet "attacks" on himself to drum up sympathy/support/publicity, all while having no actual talent or skill in the area in which he's claiming to have a career.

If it were a man we'd never have heard about it. Of course, guys don't usually play the victim card as hard as she did, but that's another can o' worms.

Aug 21, 2014#82

GasBandit

Dave said:
If it were a man we'd never have heard about it. Of course, guys don't usually play the victim card as hard as she did, but that's another can o' worms.

I think we would have, if the guy's "friends" deleted 12000 comments on reddit.

Aug 21, 2014#83

Dave

Point.

Aug 21, 2014#84

Frank

GasBandit said:
I think we would have, if the guy's "friends" deleted 12000 comments on reddit.

Oh shit, did he sleep with her too. Maybe someone should get the police involved.

Aug 21, 2014#85

Espy

Yeah, this whole thing still reeks of an excuse for the creepy, misogynistic underbelly (or maybe foundation?) of the "geek/gaming" community to validate their misogynistic views on women. It's one of the reasons I struggle to identify with that community.

@Charlie Don't Surf Don't worry man, you are right on. I think Necronic said it best when he said:

Necronic said:
I have to admit that this conversation (not just here) does more to remind me of the rampant immaturity and sexism in gaming/geekdom than it makes me worried about a breach of journalism ethics.

I can't put my finger on it exactly but this whole thing just does more to make me think how fucked up the men are in this community than it makes me worry about declining ethical standards.

Damn straight.

Aug 21, 2014#86

Charlie Don't Surf

I think you're tilting at windmills, @Tinwhistler . I don't think anywhere I criticized anyone for looking at the pictures?

Aug 21, 2014#87

Bowielee

So, I seem to recall a huge uproar a few years back involving Tim Buckly throwing another one of his epic hissy fits and there being nudes of him distributed around the net.

No one seemed to care how fuckable he was when that happened. So I'm going to go ahead and say that CDS does have a point in regards to women being treated differently than men when it comes to sexual matters.

Aug 21, 2014#88

Espy

Wait, did I miss someone arguing that society (or especially the geek/gaming community) treats men and women equally in regards to sexual matters?

Aug 21, 2014#89

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I think you're tilting at windmills, @Tinwhistler . I don't think anywhere I criticized anyone for looking at the pictures?

Tilting at windmills you say...

I thought you were responding directly to him, too, actually.

Aug 21, 2014#90

CrimsonSoul

Bowielee said:
So, I seem to recall a huge uproar a few years back involving Tim Buckly throwing another one of his epic hissy fits and there being nudes of him distributed around the net.

No one seemed to care how fuckable he was when that happened. So I'm going to go ahead and say that CDS does have a point in regards to women being treated differently than men when it comes to sexual matters.

Really? I thought people were talking about how small his little Tim was?

Aug 21, 2014#91

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:
Tilting at windmills you say...

I thought you were responding directly to him, too, actually.

I find it funny and ironic how my comment (which I tried to make fairly innocent) was the least important part of my post, and yet Charlie has managed to use it to turn this entire thread into commentary about Quinn's nudes--the very thing he's railing against. Good job there Charlie.

Aug 21, 2014#92

Covar

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you that this shitstorm originated because of questionable ethics on a Gawker site. I can hardly believe it.

Aug 21, 2014#93

Bowielee

CrimsonSoul said:
Really? I thought people were talking about how small his little Tim was?

Not that I remember, I recall it being more about them trying to paint him as some sort of pedo.

Aug 21, 2014#94

Adam

Bowielee said:
Not that I remember, I recall it being more about them trying to paint him as some sort of pedo.

Well, he was sending them to a minor (15?)

Aug 21, 2014#95

Jay

Let's chill about this and take a step back folks.

Let's be honest with ourselves. If Zoe Quinn was a man... would she actually be relevant? Most probably not. She's simply a woman in a job domain that is evolving fast of the the last few years with many immature entities still embedded there and she knows this full well and plays her cards to get it her way.

I know it. You know it.

What is she really then when it's all said and done?

An insignificant indie Dev that many don't even think much of her game at all. This opinion alone wouldn't matter if this game was made by a man, a woman or heck a fish. People are currently watching Street Fighter 2 VS games between fishes swimming in a fish tank and consider it more of a game than Depression Quest. People enjoy different things for sure but to have so many dislike that game? I was curious and after viewing a Let's Play video, YEAAAAA, not good. Yet, somehow the woman card somehow came up... how convenient. Is she the only woman indie dev out there then? A rare gem in a sea of penii. Absolutely not. For example Rebuild 3 had a Kickstarter, woman Dev, in the same situation. Last I read, was going fine. Dev knows their stuff. Multiple games out. All liked. Doing well. No one went around waving woman making this game flags.So, why is Zoe so special? Because her game wasn't popular? Or was it HER?

What else is she that's relevant then? Someone who allegedly sleeps around on her SO with many lovers? It's scummy if it's true but that doesn't matter much. Though the fact some of the alleged are people in the video game media industry does raise a few eyebrows.

What then? The fact she put up a few hundred nude pics of herself online for a pay to access website? Irrelevant, though it's something I'm sure most people in the public eye wouldn't do. Think about it though, when's the last time you saw a male game Dev put up some nude pics of himself on a pay per subscribe website in the decades of game industry?

So in the end what is this all about? Pretty much smokes and mirrors across the board. From those who claim a huge injustice was done by her supposed slutty ways/feminism/media favoritism, from the white knights getting involved to defend the vag and from her own behavior before, during and probably after this incident.

In the end... this isn't a very relevant subject to the gaming industry and everyone can form their own opinion on these matters.

Mine?

She doesn't matter much to me but I certainly do have my opinion of her. It's not very flattering. All I have to say is that she has caused a lot of harm to certain people and won't take her blame for what she's done. The charity thing she killed off for no reason? Yeah. She's a huckster. She has an agenda. This is known. She's a scummy person that takes advantage of others, of situations and is quick to play the woman card. Hate it. I HATE IT. I don't have a single problem with women being in the industry, nor women gamers as well (I hope Leyla plays games with me when she's older) but I certainly have problems with how select few behave that ultimately make others who don't behave this way on edge. Why can't women gracefully come into the industry and pay their dues like EVERYONE ELSE? From the Anitas who blow her own smokes and mirrors to play the woman card, to this fiasco to the Dina who became a community manager to a reboot of the Megaman franchise... but never played any of the games... something is up.

Can you imagine a guy doing any of this?

I think not.

Double standards cut both ways.

Aug 21, 2014#96

GasBandit

Jay said:
So in the end what is this all about? Pretty much smokes and mirrors across the board. From those who claim a huge injustice was done by her supposed slutty ways/feminism/media favoritism, from the white knights getting involved to defend the vag and from her own behavior before, during and probably after this incident.

In the end... this isn't a very relevant subject to the gaming industry and everyone can form their own opinion on these matters.

Actually, it sets back women in gaming, and puts another nail in the coffin of "gaming journalism." But you're right, it probably wouldn't have sparked any notice at all if not for white knights flexing internet authoritah turning reddit into page after page after page of this -

Thousands of that.

Aug 21, 2014#97

Dave

Tens of thousands of that.

Aug 21, 2014#98

GasBandit

The real villain in this story is Reddit moderator El_Chupacupcake, not Zoe Quinn.

Aug 21, 2014#99

AshburnerX

Jay said:
She doesn't matter much to me but I certainly do have my opinion of her. It's not very flattering. All I have to say is that she has caused a lot of harm to certain people and won't take her blame for what she's done. The charity thing she killed off for no reason? Yeah. She's a huckster. She has an agenda. This is known. She's a scummy person that takes advantage of others, of situations and is quick to play the woman card. Hate it. I HATE IT. I don't have a single problem with women being in the industry, nor women gamers as well (I hope Leyla plays games with me when she's older) but I certainly have problems with how select few behave that ultimately make others who don't behave this way on edge. Why can't women gracefully come into the industry and pay their dues like EVERYONE ELSE? From the Anitas who blow her own smokes and mirrors to play the woman card, to this fiasco to the Dina who became a community manager to a reboot of the Megaman franchise... but never played any of the games... something is up.

As much as I think Sarkesian is a hack, I at least have no doubt that she's taking this seriously and is passionate about her goals. She's not in this to get famous because she was already well known before she started her videos on games. She's not in this to get rich because she already would be if she were. She's in this to make a point and I can respect THAT, if not her body of work.

Aug 21, 2014#100

CynicismKills

GasBandit said:
The real villain in this story is Reddit moderator El_Chupacupcake, not Zoe Quinn.

He was also dumb enough to message Quinn on Twitter asking for her email for a "line of communication," which doesn't help his case.

Aug 21, 2014#101

Charlie Don't Surf

well, I'm not going to write a dissertation on all the misogyny in that Jay-post, but just the greatest hits, really, referring to girls as "the vag", really?

also this has nothing to do with looking at her nudes? My underlined comment is exasperation at everyone making value judgments on her attractiveness, not clicking the pictures.

I'm gonna spin this off into another thread - maybe this comic explaining stuff? Might make sense. http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/ It made the rounds a little earlier this month.

Aug 21, 2014#102

Bubble181

Y'know what really bothered me about the nude pictures site?
how often do you masturbate: -> this is a question and should have a question mark.
straight / gay / bi?: -> this isn't and shouldn't
movies your into: -> ARGHWARGARBL

And of course the ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME.

...Yes, I'm aware I'm paying attention to the wrong things. Sorry 'bout that.

Aug 21, 2014#103

Hailey Knight

Better than me, I apparently came into this thread with this attitude:

Aug 21, 2014#104

Jay

Notice how Charlie fell for my trap card. I used 2 genitalia examples, guess which one was white knighted?

Aug 21, 2014#105

Frank

http://benpaddon.tumblr.com/post/95421841799/zoe-quinn-fucked-her-way-to-the-top-to-get-promotion

Ben Paddon echos my feelings almost identically.

Aug 21, 2014#106

GasBandit

Still doesn't address any of the issues I keep bringing up every time somebody complains about "Why you care who she fucks anyway? Games journalism was already garbage."

Aug 21, 2014#107

Frank

GasBandit said:
Still doesn't address any of the issues I keep bringing up every time somebody complains about "Why you care who she fucks anyway? Games journalism was already garbage."

What issues are those?

Aug 21, 2014#108

GasBandit

Frank said:
What issues are those?

GasBandit said:
I disagree, it'd still have been news if it was a man using personal relationships to try to stepladder his career, torpedoing other projects for causes he purports to champion, abusing DMCA takedowns, and manufacturing fake internet "attacks" on himself to drum up sympathy/support/publicity, all while having no actual talent or skill in the area in which he's claiming to have a career.

Aug 22, 2014#109

Bowielee

You mean all the allegations that haven't been substantiated by anyone other than a bitter ex?

Aug 22, 2014#110

Frank

Bowielee said:
You mean all the allegations that haven't been substantiated by anyone other than a bitter ex?

Don't forget a reddit post.

Aug 22, 2014#111

AshburnerX

Apparently 4chan is getting involved now, basically because they've been accused of doing stuff by the Quinn camp. Their first move? Raise 5k for people trying to get female developers work.

Also, apparently someone broke into her drop box and found something incriminating? I got a re-tweeting mentioning that it happened.

Aug 22, 2014#112

Charlie Don't Surf

oh no I fell into jay's trap. too bad being called a penis isn't an inherent insult because, oh yeah, the patriarchy.

Aug 22, 2014#113

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
oh no I fell into jay's trap. too bad being called a penis isn't an inherent insult because, oh yeah, the patriarchy.

Oh no not the

Bowielee said:
You mean all the allegations that haven't been substantiated by anyone other than a bitter ex?

Putting aside the "bitter ex" provided proof, there's also the person she doxxed, who was in charge of the women in gaming project she torpedoed, the video that did get taken down by a copyright claim from her, and the fake attack stuff is pretty well self-evident for the most part and corroborated where it isn't.

Frank said:
Don't forget a reddit post.

Or, conversely, forget about 23,000 of them.

Aug 22, 2014#114

Frank

Oh cool, 4chan is on the job.

http://levelsave.com/phil-fish-polytron-doxxed-phil-fish-quits-gaming-sells-fez-polytron/

Awesome, thanks guys.

Aug 22, 2014#115

GasBandit

Frank said:
Oh cool, 4chan is on the job.

http://levelsave.com/phil-fish-polytron-doxxed-phil-fish-quits-gaming-sells-fez-polytron/

Awesome, thanks guys.

Another manufactured attack, it looks like.

Aug 22, 2014#116

Covar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
oh no I fell into jay's trap. too bad being called a penis isn't an inherent insult because, oh yeah, the patriarchy.

Good to know honky.

Aug 22, 2014#117

GasBandit

http://urlm.co/www.polytroncorporation.com#server_two

Aug 22, 2014#118

Charlie Don't Surf

Covar said:
Good to know honky.

I'm not offended by that since it hasn't been used as a term of oppression or pretty much ever shouted while a mob hung a white man from a tree or lashed him while owning him as property. But it's good to know that you just really wish you could say "negro".

Aug 22, 2014#119

Covar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm not offended by that since it hasn't been used as a term of oppression or pretty much ever shouted while a mob hung a white man from a tree or lashed him while owning him as property. But it's good to know that you just really wish you could say "negro".

I'm not sure how you're getting that out of honky, after all it's not equivalent to negro, since there's no hundred year history of it has a term of oppression.

Aug 22, 2014#120

Ravenpoe

Man, Phil Fish has quit gaming more times than Michael Jordan quit basketball.

Aug 22, 2014#121

Jay

I highly suspect they got hacked. They are both hucksters.

Aug 22, 2014#122

Bubble181

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm not offended by that since it hasn't been used as a term of oppression or pretty much ever shouted while a mob hung a white man from a tree or lashed him while owning him as property. But it's good to know that you just really wish you could say "negro".

In the United States. Go tell white folks in Zimbabwe.

Seriously Charlie, this is an international board. I have family members (ok, in-laws) whose properties were seized, who were deported and tortured for being white. Stop being ethnocentric and only championing what you perceive to be the poor weak sorry lot in need of protection. Either it's all wrong and evil, and you should judge honky and penis just as much as negro and vagina, or you're just championing because you think these groups can't defend themselves, and you feel the need to hide your own insecurities by Championing their Cause. Yes, women and colored people still have a way to go until we can say they're being treated fairly in the USA. Yes, we need to watch out for discrimination and we need to enable them to defend themselves and change some aspects of society. No, you don't get to choose which discrimination or race-based insult is better or worse (except in circumstances).

Aug 22, 2014#123

Bowielee

Bubble181 said:
In the United States. Go tell white folks in Zimbabwe.

Seriously Charlie, this is an international board. I have family members (ok, in-laws) whose properties were seized, who were deported and tortured for being white. Stop being ethnocentric and only championing what you perceive to be the poor weak sorry lot in need of protection. Either it's all wrong and evil, and you should judge honky and penis just as much as negro and vagina, or you're just championing because you think these groups can't defend themselves, and you feel the need to hide your own insecurities by Championing their Cause. Yes, women and colored people still have a way to go until we can say they're being treated fairly in the USA. Yes, we need to watch out for discrimination and we need to enable them to defend themselves and change some aspects of society. No, you don't get to choose which discrimination or race-based insult is better or worse (except in circumstances).

Aug 22, 2014#124

Charlie Don't Surf

Bubble181 said:
In the United States. Go tell white folks in Zimbabwe.

Seriously Charlie, this is an international board. I have family members (ok, in-laws) whose properties were seized, who were deported and tortured for being white. Stop being ethnocentric and only championing what you perceive to be the poor weak sorry lot in need of protection. Either it's all wrong and evil, and you should judge honky and penis just as much as negro and vagina, or you're just championing because you think these groups can't defend themselves, and you feel the need to hide your own insecurities by Championing their Cause. Yes, women and colored people still have a way to go until we can say they're being treated fairly in the USA. Yes, we need to watch out for discrimination and we need to enable them to defend themselves and change some aspects of society. No, you don't get to choose which discrimination or race-based insult is better or worse (except in circumstances).

hooooooooooooooooly shit this post

Aug 22, 2014#125

Necronic

So aside from outing Phil Fish as a cock-goblin (which we already knew), this basically resulted in getting out the torches and pitchforks against someone whose only mark of notoriety is whats between her legs on baseless accusations.
gg gamers, we knew you had it in you to lower the bar once more.

Aug 22, 2014#126

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
So aside from outing Phil Fish as a cock-goblin (which we already knew), this basically resulted in getting out the torches and pitchforks against someone whose only mark of notoriety is whats between her legs on baseless accusations.
gg gamers, we knew you had it in you to lower the bar once more.

I agree, any group that is predominantly white men is gonna usually be awful.

Aug 22, 2014#127

GasBandit

Necronic said:
So aside from outing Phil Fish as a cock-goblin (which we already knew), this basically resulted in getting out the torches and pitchforks against someone whose only mark of notoriety is whats between her legs on baseless accusations.
gg gamers, we knew you had it in you to lower the bar once more.

This again? Ok, here we go, one more time.

GasBandit said:
Putting aside the "bitter ex" provided proof, there's also the person she doxxed, who was in charge of the women in gaming project she torpedoed, the video that did get taken down by a copyright claim from her, and the fake attack stuff is pretty well self-evident for the most part and corroborated where it isn't.

You guys keep using this "baseless word."

Aug 22, 2014#128

Bubble181

Charlie Don't Surf said:
hooooooooooooooooly shit this post

I know there's a difference between a relatively small group in a small area being subjected to torture/discrimination/etc and black American history (and Arabian and Mediterranean for completeness sake - the majority of slavers weren't white, historically speaking)

I mostly made my post to point out your hypocrisy. You are a hypocrite of the worst order. I honestly and seriously believe you feel a need for white knighting because of issues pertaining to yourself, not to those you want to protect or help. You are very often on the side of good/right, I honestly agree with you more often than I disagree. But you're also a representation of much of what is going wrong on the left side of the political spectrum these days. In some ways, you remind me of the socialists in Belgium, who've fought for decades against catholic schools, and still do, and believe they should be abolished because of religion interfering with our youngsters' minds...But also supporting the opening of Muslim schools because "they have a right to live and explore their heritage". It's hypocritical, it's cultural relativism gone too far and transformed into self-loathing and self-denial.[DOUBLEPOST=1408721778,1408721635][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I agree, any group that is predominantly white men is gonna usually be awful.

Find/replace "white" with "black" and you'd be protesting and calling the poster racist. Replace "white men" with "women" and you"d call it sexist and stereotypical. Yes, white men are still in power in large parts of the world. Yes, this means we sometimes have to be more careful. No, this doesn't mean it's "ok" to be racist towards us. As long as you can't get that through your skull, you're not fighting for equality, but for oppression in the other direction, and you're as much a part of the problem as those you're fighting.

Aug 22, 2014#129

SpecialKO

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I agree, any group that is predominantly white men is gonna usually be awful.

Hey now, some D&D groups I've been to are full of incredibly nice people.

Aug 22, 2014#130

Bowielee

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I agree, any group that is predominantly white men is gonna usually be awful.

Aug 22, 2014#131

Frank

GasBandit said:
there's also the person she doxxed, who was in charge of the women in gaming project she torpedoed

You keep quoting this, but the only thing I've seen reference this is the video which just shows a reddit post. There's nothing else.

Aug 22, 2014#132

Frank

Jay said:
I highly suspect they got hacked. They are both hucksters.

One of the other Polytron guys disagrees.

http://i.imgur.com/nIXi1Ss.png

Adam Sessler was apparently in a bar with Zoe Quinn watching people attempt to gain access to her stuff over and over again.

https://twitter.com/AdamSessler/status/502633907817570306

Aug 22, 2014#133

GasBandit

Frank said:
You keep quoting this, but the only thing I've seen reference this is the video which just shows a reddit post. There's nothing else.

On August 19th, The Fine Young Capitalists released a soundcloud recording as their explanation as what to what was going on and why they were doxxed.

Code:

https://soundcloud.com/super-admin/tfyc-confession

Knowyourmeme is actually compiling a fairly impressive amount of stuff on their Quinnspiracy page.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/quinnspiracy

Aug 22, 2014#134

Gurpel

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I agree, any group that is predominantly white men is gonna usually be awful.

its so great that after 6000 recorded years of everyone being a shithead you still have the faith in humanity to see this as the behaviour of a specific subset of people. never lose that.

anyway, why the FUCK is this a thing? there are bigger problems to deal with in the gaming journalism scene than an amateur game developer sleeping around. as far as i know, all the big institutions are still basically taking handouts to review major titles on a 8-10/10 scoring system. that involves a shit ton more money, is a larger breach of ethics, and is far more detrimental to gaming as a hobby... and yet this zoe quinn thing is somehow the biggest shitstorm on the internet? wtf?

and where exactly is the proof that she slept around? or that she benefited from this alleged act? isnt the whole thing based on one obviously biased dude's blog post?

Aug 22, 2014#135

CrimsonSoul

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm not offended by that since it hasn't been used as a term of oppression or pretty much ever shouted while a mob hung a white man from a tree or lashed him while owning him as property. But it's good to know that you just really wish you could say "negro".

Guys, don't let Charlie know that pirates used to raid British villages to take whites prisoner and sell them as slaves to North Africans..

Aug 22, 2014#136

Jay

Frank said:
Adam Sessler was apparently in a bar with Zoe Quinn watching people attempt to gain access to her stuff over and over again.

https://twitter.com/AdamSessler/status/502633907817570306

Going for drinks with another guy in the video game media eh?

Aug 22, 2014#137

GasBandit

Gurpel said:
anyway, why the FUCK is this a thing? there are bigger problems to deal with in the gaming journalism scene than an amateur game developer sleeping around. as far as i know, all the big institutions are still basically taking handouts to review major titles on a 8-10/10 scoring system. that involves a shit ton more money, is a larger breach of ethics, and is far more detrimental to gaming as a hobby... and yet this zoe quinn thing is somehow the biggest shitstorm on the internet? wtf?

Because the parties involved were supposed to be the "we're not those corrupt guys" guys. It'd be like catching the NAACP doing human trafficking.

and where exactly is the proof that she slept around? or that she benefited from this alleged act? isnt the whole thing based on one obviously biased dude's blog post?

The proof she slept around was mostly on the Ex's blogpost, yes, but was corroborated by tweets from the wives/gfs of the "five guys." That she has benefited is simply a matter of observation - her "game" failed approval for Steam Greenlight until she manufactured an attack on herself, ginning up community "support" to push Depression Quest through, she's parlayed her limelight and "credibility" as a "game developer" to network more in the industry and increase her visibility in a great big cyclone of "I'm a victim, support me" leveraged to torpedo competition/critics and translated almost directly into pateron dollars. Right now she's pulling down $2300/mo, before taxes. Not exactly the high-roller bracket, but more than Depression Quest certainly merits.

Aug 22, 2014#138

Frank

Jay said:
Going for drinks with another guy in the video game media eh?

Sessler isn't games media.

Aug 22, 2014#139

Jay

Just because you say you're retiring doesn't mean it's true nor can you plug someone. Was she having drinks with Michael Radioso it wouldn't have mattered.

Aug 22, 2014#140

AshburnerX

Frank said:
Sessler isn't games media.

Not anymore anyway. He apparently has a consulting company for game developers, but that really doesn't say anything about he DOES. Regardless, he's still pretty buddy buddy with folks in the industry.

Aug 22, 2014#141

GasBandit

In all fairness, there's a point where networking just becomes networking and sex doesn't have to be involved, even if that's how you (pun intended) kickstarted your entrance into the industry. You just trade on your existing notoriety to hobnob with people who can increase it.

Aug 22, 2014#142

CynicismKills

Frank said:
Oh cool, 4chan is on the job.

http://levelsave.com/phil-fish-polytron-doxxed-phil-fish-quits-gaming-sells-fez-polytron/

Awesome, thanks guys.

4chan doesn't do shit like this anymore, they're just the easiest ones to blame. More often than not, /v/ does good things. Gaben's birthday cards, a get-well card to Iwata, and other similar things.

Aug 22, 2014#143

Charlie Don't Surf

I was not saying that in earnest, y'all

Aug 22, 2014#144

mikerc

Charlie Don't Surf said:
oh no I fell into jay's trap. too bad being called a penis isn't an inherent insult because, oh yeah, the patriarchy.

Jeez Charlie, you are such a dick

Aug 22, 2014#145

Null

This is a weirdly bizarre shit-storm, that's for sure. Unfortunately a lot of what's been brought up is hard to verify and with so much dirty laundry being flung about, it's hard to take any of it at face value. Regardless, it *does* illustrate how dangerously entangled gaming developers and gaming journalism have become, and that lack of objectivity weakens gaming journalism. It also shows how systems that are designed to help or protect people's interests can be very easily manipulated into quashing legitimate inquiry and criticism. These are all very real concerns, regardless of any one person's sex life.

Aug 22, 2014#146

Frank

This is a good read, although it's going to make everything look green for a while.

http://ellaguro.blogspot.ca/2014/08/on-right-wing-videogame-extremism.html

Aug 22, 2014#147

GasBandit

That, and her steadfast refusal to capitalize her sentences drove me up the wall. She capitalizes names though, so you know her shift key isn't broken.

Aug 22, 2014#148

Null

Why on earth would you use that background color and black text? Holy shit my fucking eyes.

Aug 22, 2014#149

Espy

Frank said:
This is a good read, although it's going to make everything look green for a while.

http://ellaguro.blogspot.ca/2014/08/on-right-wing-videogame-extremism.html

Like I already said, this whole thing reeks of MRA bullshit to justify their vile views on women. It's petty, stupid and the actual problematic part, any sort of favor for better reviews, appears to be unproven. Everything else, speculation about her sex life, etc, is just gross and feels like bitter nerds calling a women a "slut" in order to shame her.

Aug 22, 2014#150

GasBandit

MRA are the new boogiemen.

Aug 22, 2014#151

drifter

As opposed to SJW?

Aug 22, 2014#152

GasBandit

drifter said:
As opposed to SJW?

It occurred to me that, if Charlie is right about Israel creating Hamas supporters, then SJWs are responsible for creating MRAs.

Aug 22, 2014#153

Espy

He's right, I should have just said misogynistic assholes with seriously unhealthy and warped views of women and sexuality.

Aug 22, 2014#154

Jay

Sup

Aug 22, 2014#155

GasBandit

Espy said:
He's right, I should have just said misogynistic assholes with seriously unhealthy and warped views of women and sexuality.

Or "vast right wing conspiracy," which was a hair's breadth from being uttered in that eye-murdering blog post. I can't believe anybody thought that mewling dribble would be taken seriously. I mean, 4chan and /v/, a hardline conservative bloc? What's next, greenpeace being accused of being in BP's pocket?

Aug 22, 2014#156

Espy

Oh I only skimmed it, and I always doubt any real conspiracy bullshit, but assholes? Assholes are EVERYWHERE.

Aug 22, 2014#157

GasBandit

Espy said:
Oh I only skimmed it, and I always doubt any real conspiracy bullshit, but assholes? Assholes are EVERYWHERE.

Aug 22, 2014#158

drifter

GasBandit said:
Charlie is right

Aug 22, 2014#159

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
It occurred to me that, if Charlie is right about Israel creating Hamas supporters, then SJWs are responsible for creating MRAs.

This may or may not be true, but like Hamas, they're still shitheads.

Aug 23, 2014#160

Charlie Don't Surf

MRA aren't boogymen. They're killing women every day. Did you already forget the EXPLICITLY MRA ATTEMPTED MASS MURDERER in San Diego?

Aug 23, 2014#161

Tinwhistler

Charlie Don't Surf said:
MRA aren't boogymen. They're killing women every day. Did you already forget the EXPLICITLY MRA ATTEMPTED MASS MURDERER in San Diego?

Are you talking about Elliott Rodger?

Aug 24, 2014#162

GasBandit

Aug 24, 2014#163

Frank

Do you actually believe that shit?

Aug 24, 2014#164

GasBandit

Frank said:
Do you actually believe that shit?

That tumblr SJWs are hyprocritical self-promoting professional victims with no actual ethical compass or basic competency? What's not to believe?

You should watch more of Thunderfoot's stuff, he very adeptly showed why "Solar Frickin Roadways" is a sham and illustrated quite effectively how Anita Sarkeesian is peddling BS.

Aug 24, 2014#165

Hailey Knight

I couldn't make it through the whole video; there's a whole lot of stupid in there, the clips and the narrator sharing portions and eating it off each other's plates.

Aug 25, 2014#166

Null

My problem is that, this is going to be used as some kind of weird-ass justification anytime a woman brings up some legitimate concerns about the videogame industry - be it gaming journalism, or how women in the industry are treated, or just the incredible level of under-representation of female characters in gaming. I mean you already have channers responding to any complaint a woman has about gaming, no matter how reasonable or minor, with "I hope u get raped to death bitch". Now any time a female developer talks about difficulties, it's going to be "Well some other woman did something kind of unethical so fuck you and whatever it is you're talking about". And that's a really toxic atmosphere to try and have any kind of discourse in.

Aug 25, 2014#167

GasBandit

Null said:
My problem is that, this is going to be used as some kind of weird-ass justification anytime a woman brings up some legitimate concerns about the videogame industry - be it gaming journalism, or how women in the industry are treated, or just the incredible level of under-representation of female characters in gaming. I mean you already have channers responding to any complaint a woman has about gaming, no matter how reasonable or minor, with "I hope u get raped to death bitch". Now any time a female developer talks about difficulties, it's going to be "Well some other woman did something kind of unethical so fuck you and whatever it is you're talking about". And that's a really toxic atmosphere to try and have any kind of discourse in.

Indeed. That's what people mean when they say something has "set a movement back (x amount of time)," because as my dad used to say, "One ohshit will kill a thousand attaboys."

Aug 25, 2014#168

Bowielee

Stopped the video as soon as he said no can also mean yes.

Aug 25, 2014#169

Frank

Bowielee said:
Stopped the video as soon as he said no can also mean yes.

That's only the beginning of some of the ridiculous shit in it.

Aug 25, 2014#170

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Stopped the video as soon as he said no can also mean yes.

I know what you're trying to say, but you're being willfully intellectually dishonest if you're telling me that "maybe" and "no" have not, and are not still currently, being used when "yes" is meant.

Frank said:
That's only the beginning of some of the ridiculous shit in it.

You really need to get some sleep, you're ultra cranky in every thread I've seen you post in for the last week.

Aug 25, 2014#171

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
I know what you're trying to say, but you're being willfully intellectually dishonest if you're telling me that "maybe" and "no" have not, and are not still currently, being used when "yes" is meant.

Aug 25, 2014#172

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
I know what you're trying to say, but you're being willfully intellectually dishonest if you're telling me that "maybe" and "no" have not, and are not still currently, being used when "yes" is meant.

Maybe is open to interpretation. No is not.

I don't care if she's naked and flicking her bean at you. If she says no, you stop.

Aug 25, 2014#173

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Maybe is open to interpretation. No is not.

I don't care if she's naked and flicking her bean at you. If she says no, you stop.

That's an excellent assertion to constantly be making, and a concept we should definitely be reinforcing, until we eventually reach the point where it's actually true. Because right now there's all kinds of mind-game shit that undermines it.

Aug 25, 2014#174

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:
That's an excellent assertion to constantly be making, and a concept we should definitely be reinforcing, until the point where it's actually true. Because right now there's all kinds of mind-game shit that undermines it.

Aug 25, 2014#175

Ravenpoe

No can sometimes mean yes, but there's usually a safeword involved.

Aug 25, 2014#176

Null

Not that I have a wealth of options, but from my point of view, when you're dealing with a partner who sometimes says "No" to mean "Yes", FIND A DIFFERENT ONE. It's bound to go horribly wrong.

Aug 25, 2014#177

GasBandit

Null said:
Not that I have a wealth of options, but from my point of view, when you're dealing with a partner who sometimes says "No" to mean "Yes", FIND A DIFFERENT ONE. It's bound to go horribly wrong.

You're right. Problem is, only way to find that land mine is by stepping on it.

Aug 25, 2014#178

Espy

All I've learned form the variety of crazy SJ Tumbler and anti-SJ stuff Gas has posted on these forums is that A) Tumblr is bad and should generally be avoided & B) People need to get off the internet more often.

Aug 25, 2014#179

figmentPez

To be fair, categorizing all of Tumblr as SJWs is like saying that all of Reddit is MRAs.

Aug 25, 2014#180

GasBandit

figmentPez said:
To be fair, categorizing all of Tumblr as SJWs is like saying that all of Reddit is MRAs.

I prefer to think of it like a modifier. There are feminists, and then there are tumblr feminists.

So it's not to say that all of tumblr are SJWs, but it's certainly where the most irritating of them happen to gather.

Espy said:
& B) People need to get off (...) more often.

Sounds like a plan.

Aug 25, 2014#181

Espy

Ew.

Aug 25, 2014#182

CynicismKills

Personally I think at this point the most toxic place in the internet is Twitter, but maybe that's just me.

Aug 25, 2014#183

GasBandit

CynicismKills said:
Personally I think at this point the most toxic place in the internet is Twitter, but maybe that's just me.

Really? Even moreso than 4chan?

For my part, I'm not really a fan of any kind of social network. I don't have a facebook account, nor twitter, Youtube put a gun to my head and made me get a google+ account but it's not linked to my real identity. I will cop to having a linkedin profile for my meatspace self, but that's only because if you work in the IT industry and you don't have a linkedin profile, potential employers think you're some kind of charlatan or mutant techno-unabomber.

Aug 25, 2014#184

CynicismKills

GasBandit said:
Really? Even moreso than 4chan?

For my part, I'm not really a fan of any kind of social network. I don't have a facebook account, nor twitter, Youtube put a gun to my head and made me get a google+ account but it's not linked to my real identity. I will cop to having a linkedin profile for my meatspace self, but that's only because if you work in the IT industry and you don't have a linkedin profile, potential employers think you're some kind of charlatan or mutant techno-unabomber.

Honestly? Yes. 4chan hides behind anonymity, but generally the subject of vitriol isn't ever present in the thread. It's like a bunch of teenagers talking about someone behind their back. Yeah it's bad, but Twitter is people directly interacting with the person/group, on a public media platform with limited to no anonymity, and on top of that forcing all their hate into 140 characters. Plus, how many public figures and people in various industries (games, movies, etc) have gotten in trouble for stupid things said in retaliation to Twitter remarks? More and more over the last few years.

Aug 25, 2014#185

Bowielee

BTW, I went back to that video and his arguments saying that Sarkesian is a moron are uninformed on his part. What she said is backed up by psychological science going all the way back to the Milgram experiments. She's not the one full of shit, he is.

Aug 25, 2014#186

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
BTW, I went back to that video and his arguments saying that Sarkesian is a moron are uninformed on his part. What she said is backed up by psychological science going all the way back to the Milgram experiments. She's not the one full of shit, he is.

Even the part where she claims Hitman games "invite and reward players for violently harming and killing women" when in fact the games penalize you for doing so?

Aug 25, 2014#187

Bowielee

I'm talking about the broader psychological issues of ingroup thinking and people who think they're not vulnerable to influence actually being more prone to be influenced. This has been established for decades.

If great swaths of his argument are based off of untruths, I see no reason to take his argument seriously.

Aug 25, 2014#188

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
Even the part where she claims Hitman games "invite and reward players for violently harming and killing women" when in fact the games penalize you for doing so?

I'll admit, that was a small error she made in the overall argument. A large, overall argument that whatshisname doesn't address. Nor do most of her detractors, I've noticed. They're not addressing her overall arguments, but rather nitpicking things like using other YouTuber's videos (a fair, but minor critique) or that she "scammed" so many people out of their money when really, she wasn't asking for very much in the first place.

Aug 25, 2014#189

GasBandit

Well, I don't have the psychology background to speak to that. I do, however, have the video gaming background to know she's full of it.[DOUBLEPOST=1409007707,1409007674][/DOUBLEPOST]

ThatNickGuy said:
I'll admit, that was a small error she made in the overall argument. A large, overall argument that whatshisname doesn't address. Nor do most of her detractors, I've noticed. They're not addressing her overall arguments, but rather nitpicking things like using other YouTuber's videos (a fair, but minor critique) or that she "scammed" so many people out of their money when really, she wasn't asking for very much in the first place.

Did she give back the extra or keep it?

Aug 25, 2014#190

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
Well, I don't have the psychology background to speak to that. I do, however, have the video gaming background to know she's full of it.[DOUBLEPOST=1409007707,1409007674][/DOUBLEPOST]
Did she give back the extra or keep it?

One error doesn't invalidate an entire argument, basing your entire argument off of false claims does.

Aug 25, 2014#191

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
Well, I don't have the psychology background to speak to that. I do, however, have the video gaming background to know she's full of it.[DOUBLEPOST=1409007707,1409007674][/DOUBLEPOST]
Did she give back the extra or keep it?

I have no idea, and so what if she kept it? People freely donated to support her project. She was well within her right to keep it if she wished.

Aug 25, 2014#192

Bowielee

Also, to point out what she said about Hitman may not have been correct, but it is completely true of other games, such as GTA.

Aug 25, 2014#193

Hailey Knight

The video saying "no can mean yes" and "it's more about body language" is like saying anything can mean anything and gives free reign to justification being in the eye of the beholder.

If no means no, and the guy interprets it as yes = rape.
If no means yes, and the guy interprets it as no = miss out on sex. Oh no, the poor baby. I feel like the M in MRA should stand for Miserable crybaby, because "men" is supposed to be the adult form of "boys", and being a whiny bitch about not getting your way is not how adults should behave.

Aug 25, 2014#194

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
I have no idea, and so what if she kept it? People freely donated to support her project. She was well within her right to keep it if she wished.

Spoiler - she kept it. It's pretty good money peddling victimhood.

Bowielee said:
Also, to point out what she said about Hitman may not have been correct, but it is completely true of other games, such as GTA.

GTA is pretty indifferent to all forms of violence, other than the possibility of too much/too visible violence raising your star level and making the police chase you. Yes, we've all heard the oft-quoted "you can pick up a prositute, have sex with her, and kill her to get your money back" but in GTA or Saints Row you can pretty much kill anyone you see to "get money" with the same police-response caveat.

Now, ARE there sexist games? Definitely. The girls in most Leisure Suit Larry games are one-dimensional sex-in-exchange-for-a-macguffin androids, albeit with no violence toward them, but plenty of objectification and oversexualization. But she didn't choose to use those ones. She specifically (or perhaps randomly) chooses successful mainstream titles with the expressed purpose of ferreting out demons that may - or more often - may not exist. You tilt at enough windmills, maybe one day you do find a giant. But it doesn't validate the process of how you got there, or patch the holes in the walls of all the windmills you tilted.[DOUBLEPOST=1409008943,1409008820][/DOUBLEPOST]

Zero Esc said:
The video saying "no can mean yes" and "it's more about body language" is like saying anything can mean anything and gives free reign to justification being in the eye of the beholder.

If no means no, and the guy interprets it as yes = rape.
If no means yes, and the guy interprets it as no = miss out on sex. Oh no, the poor baby. I feel like the M in MRA should stand for Miserable crybaby, because "men" is supposed to be the adult form of "boys", and being a whiny bitch about not getting your way is not how adults should behave.

You're doing the same thing the espousers are doing - oversimplifying. No rarely means yes. No should always mean no. But as previously mentioned, it gets murky sometimes because relationship shit can get retarded.

Aug 25, 2014#195

Bowielee

So, as a man, it's more prudent to assume that no actually always means no and not try to make excuses for not being able to keep it in your pants.

Aug 25, 2014#196

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
Spoiler - she kept it. It's pretty good money peddling victimhood.

Oh, okay, so she was supposed to just ignore all the rape and death threats, attempted hacking of her account, and denial-of-service attacks? She wasn't playing a victim. She was a victim of all that harassment just because people didn't agree or want to hear what she had to say about women's portrayal in video games. Are you saying that all those juvenile, personal attacks on her were justified? Yeah, more people supported her maybe to spite the immature people who attacked her, but again, so what? She didn't ask for their support. She only received a large amount of news through various gaming sites because of all the ridiculous reactions people had. You could argue she received so much funding because of the publicity of the nonsense. If anything, those attackers helped support her campaign just by bringing more attention to it with their juvenile reactions.

Aug 25, 2014#197

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
You're doing the same thing the espousers are doing - oversimplifying. No rarely means yes. No should always mean no. But as previously mentioned, it gets murky sometimes because relationship shit can get retarded.

I think Bowie put it better than I would:

Bowielee said:
So, as a man, it's more prudent to assume that no actually always means no and not try to make excuses for not being able to keep it in your pants.

If it came up for me, and then later the girl said "But I did want to", my response would be you need a better word, because without a previous discussion on our personal terminology, no means I'm not having sex.

Aug 25, 2014#198

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
So, as a man, it's more prudent to assume that no actually always means no and not try to make excuses for not being able to keep it in your pants.

I think I've already replied to this post.

ThatNickGuy said:
Oh, okay, so she was supposed to just ignore all the rape and death threats, attempted hacking of her account, and denial-of-service attacks? She wasn't playing a victim. She was a victim of all that harassment just because people didn't agree or want to hear what she had to say about women's portrayal in video games. Are you saying that all those juvenile, personal attacks on her were justified? Yeah, more people supported her maybe to spite the immature people who attacked her, but again, so what? She didn't ask for their support. She only received a large amount of news through various gaming sites because of all the ridiculous reactions people had. You could argue she received so much funding because of the publicity of the nonsense. If anything, those attackers helped support her campaign just by bringing more attention to it with their juvenile reactions.

She didn't start off being a victim, she started off peddling the idea of female victimhood. Yes, she then later got lots of reprehensible death threats and all the other things you say... but it sure parlayed into a decent profit for putting out 9 youtube videos in 2 years. Interesting question you raise with your last sentence, though - do you think she would have made as much money had she not held victim status?

Zero Esc said:
I think Bowie put it better than I would:

If it came up for me, and then later the girl said "But I did want to", my response would be you need a better word, because without a previous discussion on our personal terminology, no means I'm not having sex.

Yes, yes, we're all Galahads on the internet, only tested in completely unambiguous situations with no nuance, confusion or pressure.

Aug 25, 2014#199

Bowielee

Well, straw poll. How many people in this board have had sex with a woman who said no to sex, but later said that it was OK?

More importantly, women of the board, do you ever mean yes when you tell a man no?

Personally, I've been told no and said no to sex and all activity stopped then and there.

Aug 25, 2014#200

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Well, straw poll. How many people in this board have had sex with a woman who said no to sex, but later said that it was OK?

More importantly, women of the board, do you ever mean yes when you tell a man no?

Personally, I've been told no and said no to sex and all activity stopped then and there.

Because THAT'S scientific, impartial, representative and not in the least bit pressured.

But for the record, yes, I have actually had a girl get mad at me for not realizing that she meant yes when she was heavily implying "no." I obviously just "didn't care enough" to keep chasing.

Aug 25, 2014#201

Bowielee

So, the ramification of you responding to a no as a no was that she got mad at you?

In my mind that's preferable to possible rape charges.[DOUBLEPOST=1409011232,1409010916][/DOUBLEPOST]https://www.halforums.com/threads/controversial-poll-about-sex.30750/

If anyone wants to answer the question.[DOUBLEPOST=1409011340][/DOUBLEPOST]I'd also point out that one of the oldest arguments defending rape is the old "your mouth says no, but your eyes say yes" argument.

Aug 25, 2014#202

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Yes, yes, we're all Galahads on the internet, only tested in completely unambiguous situations with no nuance, confusion or pressure.

If you're being pressured into sex, then you're on the wronged side of things.

Look, I don't know your sexual history and I don't want to. Treating no as no seems to be a pretty low-risk. Missed out on sex because she used no as yes ... so what? There would be other nights, or other women.

But I've stepped off before when things weren't clear, and I'm fucking glad I did, because later she told me she was scared. Would it have been easier if I'd known then? Of course. But the situation was uncertain, I backed down out of caution. You know what? There were later times to have sex when it was clear, but imagine if I hadn't been cautious? I would've been horrified with myself, because I'm not that kind of person.

It's not that difficultto not have sex, but guys act like they're in such a challenged situation. The video maker shouldn't be handing that shit out as advice, because I'd guess it's largely the guys in unambiguous situations who use that shit to justify doing whatever they want.

Aug 25, 2014#203

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
So, the ramification of you responding to a no as a no was that she got mad at you?

In my mind that's preferable to possible rape charges.

Oh, I agree, and it was also my clue to not have anything to do with her any more. But it doesn't change what I've replied to you for now the third time - that there is still a very, I won't call it "common" but certainly not "rare," tendency for some women to use "no" as a test to see how far you'll go and what you'll do. Be it to see if you "want it bad enough" or a test of your alpha maleness or whatever, or just to see if you'll chase when they run - there's some fucked up mind games going on out there.

And furthermore, it's also possible that Yes can mean No. At the risk of spilling yet more of my private life out on this board, there were times when THAT happened as well in my longest term relationship. That was not a fun time. Yes can also become "no" ex post facto, as some (fortunately not me) have found out to their sorrow.

Come to think of it, in a non-sexual situation, I can guarantee you every married man on this board can tell you when yes has meant no - instances of saying "sure" or "go ahead then" or "do what you want."

The verbalization of the words is only part of the communication process.

Edit - get a load of this uplifting bit of pablum -

I guarantee you a man didn't write that.

Aug 26, 2014#204

GasBandit

Frank said:
You get to tell me when I'm cranky about the intricacies of when no means yes when you've dealt with as many rapes as I have over the last 2 weeks.

I would be very concerned about you if that didn't make you cranky.

Aug 26, 2014#205

Bubble181

"Playing hard to get" was stupid when it was invented and it's still stupid now. Women are taught to "play hard to get" and see whether the guy's "really" into you. Men are taught women will play hard to get and that if they say "no", you should push a bit harder. Both are wrong, and can lead to crappy situations and toxic dating scenes.

I'm completely with Gas here - No should always mean No, you should definitely always treat it as a No, but you should be prepared to be told that it wasn't meant that way after all. I've been on both sides of that fence. As has been said, of course, the downside of accepting a No as a No tends to be far, far less problematic than the downside of "misinterpreting" a No as a Yes.

Aug 26, 2014#206

Hailey Knight

Didn't someone on this board know of a girl in their college who wouldn't date a guy unless he asked her out 10 times, to make sure he really wanted to date her? I feel like that was here. So, you know, "harass me if you want to date me."

Aug 26, 2014#207

Bubble181

Zero Esc said:
"harass me if you want to date me."

Hollywood in general still hasn't learnt the difference between "harass and stalk" and "romantic gesture", so how do you expect the youth of our nations to learn it?

Aug 26, 2014#208

GasBandit

Bubble181 said:
Hollywood in general still hasn't learnt the difference between "harass and stalk" and "romantic gesture", so how do you expect the youth of our nations to learn it?

Aug 26, 2014#209

Espy

Sometimes... ugh... seriously guys. Some of the ways people on this forum talk about women are just fucking creepy.

Aug 26, 2014#210

Tress

Zero Esc said:
Didn't someone on this board know of a girl in their college who wouldn't date a guy unless he asked her out 10 times, to make sure he really wanted to date her? I feel like that was here. So, you know, "harass me if you want to date me."

That was me, and yes. Her rule was a guy had to ask 3 times, get a hard rejection each time, and then ask again. Only then would she go on a date.

Aug 26, 2014#211

PatrThom

Sounds lonely and frustrating.

--Patrick

Aug 26, 2014#212

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
Sounds lonely and frustrating.

When it's not abusive and hellish.

Aug 26, 2014#213

Tress

PatrThom said:
Sounds lonely and frustrating.

--Patrick

She's married now, so someone took the bait.

(She finally realized how stupid her plan was and dropped it)

Aug 29, 2014#214

Frank

Zoe Quinn fields her made up harassment on Youtube.

Aug 29, 2014#215

GasBandit

Frank said:
Zoe Quinn fields her made up harassment on Youtube.

Is that video from earlier than August 19th? I don't doubt she's getting legit harrased now.

Aug 31, 2014#216

Jay

[DOUBLEPOST=1409500340,1409500066][/DOUBLEPOST]For the record, the censoring on Reddit is going strong on Reddit today... again.

Aug 31, 2014#217

GasBandit

I like how the last bit of that video shows that basically, since the whole industry has become so incestuously corrupt, now IGN basically has the cleanest hands. Talk about through the looking glass.[DOUBLEPOST=1409503200,1409502997][/DOUBLEPOST]

Aug 31, 2014#218

AshburnerX

‘GamerGate’ and Why We Aren’t Moving Forward From the Worst Week in Gaming

Sep 4, 2014#219

Frank

Oh cool, Jenn Frank wrote a piece about online harassment that was deemed UNETHICAL by #gamergate fucking idiots (despite being cleared by the fucking Guardian as being fine) and harassed her to the point where she's decided to quit writing about games.

Fuck off.

FUCK OFF.

Sep 4, 2014#220

Null

See this? This shit right here? This is why people think so poorly of gamers. This gives credence to every accusation of gamers being a bunch of hateful fucks who are threatened by the inclusion of anyone who's different from them.

Sep 4, 2014#221

Bowielee

Null said:
See this? This shit right here? This is why people think so poorly of gamers. This gives credence to every accusation of gamers being a bunch of hateful fucks who are threatened by the inclusion of anyone who's different from them.

I can tell you that from experience. I think it's getting better, though. I'm still tired of hearing racial, homophobic and sexist slurs on multiplayer games of all types, but they're more of a minority now than a majority, I think.

Hell, I think you can say that about most of online culture.

It seems like there's just a core group of neckbeards who are terrified that a hobby that was "theirs" is being co-opted by other groups.

Sep 4, 2014#222

GasBandit

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAct...e_guardians_jenn_franks_conflict_of_interest/

Sep 4, 2014#223

Jay

Boom

Sep 4, 2014#224

Frank

IT WAS CLEARED BY THE FUCKING GUARDIAN.

Jenn's response to that:

http://infinitelives.net/2014/09/01/regarding-the-conflict-of-interest-in-my-latest-piece/

But you guys are right. One of the best freelancers out there should be harassed until they give up and quit. Fucking disgusting.

Sep 4, 2014#225

Adam

It boggles my mind that writers who engage in social media are SURPRISED SHOCKED AMAZED when a tide of vultures and ne'erdowells descend on them for writing something potentially 'unpopular'. Welcome to Writing 101! You think that newsrooms across the country don't get all sorts of hate mail for the things they report on? That's (unfortunately) part of the job, and is not a reflection of your gender, but simply your position as a public target. The number of these 'young people' getting up and quitting because they receive some flames their way is laughable. Damned millenials!

Sep 4, 2014#226

Frank

Adam said:
It boggles my mind that writers who engage in social media are SURPRISED SHOCKED AMAZED when a tide of vultures and ne'erdowells descend on them for writing something potentially 'unpopular'. Welcome to Writing 101! You think that newsrooms across the country don't get all sorts of hate mail for the things they report on? That's (unfortunately) part of the job, and is not a reflection of your gender, but simply your position as a public target. The number of these 'young people' getting up and quitting because they receive some flames their way is laughable. Damned millenials!

She posted 7 seconds of her twitter feed. It was dozens of messages filled with vile, misogynistic shit.

But it's all about the ethics right #gamergaters?

Sep 4, 2014#227

Adam

Frank said:
She posted 7 seconds of her twitter feed. It was dozens of messages filled with vile, misogynistic shit.

But it's all about the ethics right #gamergaters?

Yes, but misogyny isn't some kind of "Supreme Ultimate Power" and the reactions to it are fueing its use more.

Sep 4, 2014#228

GasBandit

Frank said:
IT WAS CLEARED BY THE FUCKING GUARDIAN.

And? I've questioned the integrity of articles posted by Time magazine before. Just because something is a "real" news outlet doesn't mean it doesn't have an agenda.

Jenn's response to that:

http://infinitelives.net/2014/09/01/regarding-the-conflict-of-interest-in-my-latest-piece/

Yeah, Clarissa, explain it all. After it comes to light, of course.

Also rolled my eyes at her author credit blurb -

About Jenn Frank:
Jenn thinks the Atari 2600, Game Boy Micro, and Apple iPhone are all viable game consoles. Email her at jenn at infinite lives dot net.

Yeah, that's right! Take that controversial standpoint! Look at me, I'm Jenn Frank, ready to take on all comers with my cutting edge opinions and unpopular stances! Except if a bunch of guys are mean to me on twitter, then I'm going to morph from strong, independent, opinionated woman to textbook damsel.

But you guys are right. One of the best freelancers out there should be harassed until they give up and quit. Fucking disgusting.

Frank said:
She posted 7 seconds of her twitter feed. It was dozens of messages filled with vile, misogynistic shit.

But it's all about the ethics right #gamergaters?

That's a really broad brush you're painting with there, Captain Coronary.

Sep 4, 2014#229

Bowielee

Of course, you have no axe to grind, so you're perfectly unbiased, right Gas?

Sep 4, 2014#230

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Of course, you have no axe to grind, so you're perfectly unbiased, right Gas?

I've got an obvious position, and I post in support of it. Last I checked that wasn't hypocrisy. Ain't nobody supporting my patreon.

Color me unimpressed at the fallacious appeal to authority on the whole "but the GUARDIAN said it was ok!" Especially in this day and age where this is CNN, one of the biggest and most authoritative media sources on earth:

Yeah, mainstream media sources definitely are the authority on what's going on in the online world today.

Sep 4, 2014#231

CynicismKills

Research is for losers. I actually enjoyed this article, though.

Sep 4, 2014#232

Adam

That's a good article CK and accurately summarizes my viewpoint on things.

Sep 4, 2014#233

AshburnerX

I'm kind of tired of everyone involved in this.

Gamers... whatever this woman and her friends and the industry at large are doing doesn't justify the death threats, the harassment, and just general bullshittery that you are making them endure. You are destroying their lives over something that, while unethical, is not the end all/be all of corruption. No one deserves this. Stop letting the rage you've had smouldering inside you since you were an ostracized child turn you into a fucking monster because that is what you are acting like. You need to look at everything you've done and ether stop or find a better target.

Journalists and Devs... you are guilty of conspiring to advance your own careers at the expense of fair and balanced coverage and in choosing who "gets" to be part of elite through personal favors. It doesn't matter that it's for a good cause or that it will better the industry because you have tainted the good you have done with your backroom politics and bedroom antics. Helping a friend get ahead isn't a crime... but you throw sex into there and suddenly it EVERYTHING changes because the relationship dynamics have changed. There is a reason we sneer at actresses who get work this way and it's because it devalues not only the art but all things in a production. It suddenly turns from "How good are you at what you do?" to "What can you do for me?". How many talented young people will be unable to realize their vision because they are unwilling or unable to engage in this incestuous kingdom of your own creation? You've recreated the Hollywood system and that system SUCKS.

Things were supposed to be different this time. We were the victims and we endured and now we are in charge. That THIS is what comes from it makes me wish we had been stamped out when we were young and weak.

Sep 4, 2014#234

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
Things were supposed to be different this time. We were the victims and we endured and now we are in charge.

Slaves would be tyrants, had they but the chance.

Sep 4, 2014#235

CynicismKills

I remember about, Jesus, almost a decade ago now, I was at E3 '05. I got to meet some guys on the Blizzard cinematics team, and some guys from BioWare who had worked on some new cloth effect tech on Jade Empire. When my friends and I asked about getting into the industry, they all said the same thing was a big blip on the radar.

Potential. Not outright talent, not who I knew, and not what I showed them, but the potential for growth they'd glean from a portfolio and interview.

It seems to me, now, that none of that is true, and it makes me incredibly sad for an industry I wanted so badly to be a part of one day.

Sep 4, 2014#236

AshburnerX

CynicismKills said:
I remember about, Jesus, almost a decade ago now, I was at E3 '05. I got to meet some guys on the Blizzard cinematics team, and some guys from BioWare who had worked on some new cloth effect tech on Jade Empire. When my friends and I asked about getting into the industry, they all said the same thing was a big blip on the radar.

Potential. Not outright talent, not who I knew, and not what I showed them, but the potential for growth they'd glean from a portfolio and interview.

It seems to me, now, that none of that is true, and it makes me incredibly sad for an industry I wanted so badly to be a part of one day.

You need one of a few things to make it in gaming:

- to be rich enough to own your own studio
- to be impressive enough to get people to give you money on KS to make your dream projects or to attract the eye of a senior developer
- know the right people

That's it.

Sep 4, 2014#237

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Slaves would be tyrants, had they but the chance.

Sounds familiar.

--Patrick

Sep 4, 2014#238

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Slaves would be tyrants, had they but the chance.

No one wants to play The Stomping Lands, Gas.

Sep 6, 2014#239

Charlie Don't Surf

more #gamergate

https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate

Zoe Quinn logged their plotting for the whole "movement" in an IRC channel, and has turned it over to the FBI

Sep 6, 2014#240

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
more #gamergate

https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate

Zoe Quinn logged their plotting for the whole "movement" in an IRC channel, and has turned it over to the FBI

Well, I'm sure glad that an IRC log of anonymous has proven once and for all that video game journalism is a bastion of integrity and diligence.

Sep 6, 2014#241

Jay

Sigh.

I don't know what is more sad, the fact that people actually sit in IRC and do this type of shit or the fact that someone is up at 4 AM tweeting about these people harassing her in a barrage of tweets instead of doing far more productive things in their life. Not going to hate on her for defending herself, I believe I understand but I'll be frank and say once again... feeding the trolls and attention-whoring isn't helping her cause. There's no need for her to tweet/take pics like this and post them online at all. Just file the police report and go to fucking bed, let the police use this channel to their advantage, now it's gone. Go to bed! Then wake up, pick up a boom and learn how to code better because ZQ was a pretty bad game and that's the bottom line.

Maybe stop having sexual relations with gaming journalists as well, whether they covered your game or not.

Sep 6, 2014#242

Charlie Don't Surf

Jay said:
Maybe stop having sexual relations with gaming journalists as well, whether they covered your game or not.

why[DOUBLEPOST=1410022983,1410022926][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
Well, I'm sure glad that an IRC log of anonymous has proven once and for all that video game journalism is a bastion of integrity and diligence.

i don't give a fuck about videogames, i'm just trying to show that the shitty gamer side is all about M I S O G Y N Y

Sep 6, 2014#243

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i don't give a fuck about videogames, i'm just trying to show that the shitty gamer side is all about M I S O G Y N Y

All you've managed to show is that a vocal minority of gamers are being whiny little shits. There are a lot more gamers out there who want nothing to do with that type of asshattery, and who also don't want anything to do with Zoe Quinn's asshattery either.

Sep 6, 2014#244

Jay

I get what they're doing is pretty lame and reporting is good gravy to me. To go on Twitter and post a barrage of tweets like that, showing pics and whatnot... after you file a police report?

why

Just shut the fuck up and deal with the authorities. Give them the tools needed to do their job, don't warn them of your presence. Let them advertise what they are doing openly on IRC. It's stupid. Like REALLY stupid what she did.

And once again, she proves what she's all about.... the attention seeking asshattery. No need to feed the trolls.

Just move on. Get better at what you do. Most people are quite sick of hearing of her and of her journalist friends.[DOUBLEPOST=1410024543,1410023958][/DOUBLEPOST]I don't like Zoe Quinn for many reasons, least of which is the fact she's a woman who "makes games". Along the long list of bad things attributed to her by far is her actions that killed a event that was created to help women get into game development all for her benefit.

Sep 6, 2014#245

ScytheRexx

Why would she stop grand standing about it? It's all to her advantage right now.

Remember watching that video awhile back? She was at maybe 1500 dollars a month on her patreon in that screen-grab. After all this stuff happening? 2800. She gets paid more then I make during my day job just to say she might be working on a tiny, mini-game. Not even counting what she may have gotten through the paypal links on her site and the rebeljam con.

Idiots can keep raging over her all they want, but they are just allowing her to milk the victim card and laugh her way ultimately to the bank. To stay silent right now would be to give up her ability to profit off the free press.

Sep 6, 2014#246

Mathias

Can someone explain to me in like 2 or 3 sentences what the fuck is going on? I feel like this whole fiasco isn't worth taking more time than that to research.

Sep 6, 2014#247

Hailey Knight

What's funny is, in the long run, nothing really happened. But damn did people talk a lot of shit.

Sep 6, 2014#248

ScytheRexx

Mathias said:
Can someone explain to me in like 2 or 3 sentences what the fuck is going on? I feel like this whole fiasco isn't worth taking more time than that to research.

There are three things involved. Here is a quick list. I couldn't really make it any smaller.

Zoe slept with prominent game journalists and other men involved with the industry. Many of these same guys mentioned her game in articles and on twitter. All the while she was in a relationship with her boyfriend.

Zoe was coming out with a game on Steam Greenlight. It was not getting enough support to be released, but then suddenly she was being harassed by a web community called Wizardchan over the game. She used the victim card to get retweeted on twitter by journalists, including the ones she slept with, which lead to her game gathering the support it needed to be greenlit and sold on Steam. Wizardchan says the people badmouthing her were new posters doing such anonymously, implying it was staged.

Zoe was part of an MTV produced GameJam reality show, which tanked on the first day as Zoe and some others walked out due to a supposedly overzealous producer. Months later two articles from journalists that were also in the event, both of which it was confirmed she slept with, posted articles about the whole thing and how it failed. The same day those articles went online, Zoe had setup a website promoting her own game jam, that linked to her personal PayPal.

This has led to a lot of implications that she and her lovers were doing things to promote her, either through fake outrage, timed articles, or various backroom deals.

P.S. Forgot a forth, Zoe uses her connections in journalism and various websites like Reddit to squelch all conversation about her about the above three things.

Sep 6, 2014#249

Jay

Mathias said:
Can someone explain to me in like 2 or 3 sentences what the fuck is going on? I feel like this whole fiasco isn't worth taking more time than that to research.

Female indie Dev with "1 game" to her credit is well known in the gaming industry for being a rarity. Was recently caught cheating on long term boyfriend with several men, amongst which are a few gaming journalists who've covered her and her game at various degrees. This brings out the conspiracy theorists of douchbaggery going on in the game journalists universe as well as giving her a hard time for being... well a slut. Social justice warriors come out, feminists and all that. Twitter chaos. Internet chaos. People do a long history look at the girl and find out she does all kinds of things to stay alive, including smut pics on a pay per view website. Find more conspiracies. Suddenly game journalism back her on most sites on THE SAME DAY. More conspiracy. Rise, repeat.

She's also a terrible person and various previous event come to light including one where she personally killed off an event where people were trying to get some type of thing going for women dev makers to get into to get their game published and made. For apparently... "women would get exploited". but I feel otherwise. Zoe wanted to close that game dev contest because you see as much as these women bitch and moan about not enough female representation in the geek culture women like Zoe thrive on their "rarity". So as long as she's one of the few prominent female game devs (with 1 "game" to her name) she can make her living by being a novelty (as seen on her patron - pay me site). So if a few more female game devs, with more talent suddenly appear.... she's lose her living. She was worried about women being exploited.... she was worried about these other women becoming noteworthy enough in the industry to kill her off because... she SUCKS (literally).

Sep 6, 2014#250

GasBandit

Mathias said:
Can someone explain to me in like 2 or 3 sentences what the fuck is going on? I feel like this whole fiasco isn't worth taking more time than that to research.

A cheated-on Ex's blog posts about how his "indie game developer" girlfriend cheated on him with 5 members of the gaming journalism and game development communities became the loose thread that, when tugged, unraveled to expose even further how incestuous and self-promoting the indie gaming journalism/development world is.

Undisclosed conflicts of interest abound, manufactured professional victimhood for profit is the order of the day, the central characters in the story leverage their connections and notoriety to stomp out competing organizations that promote the same causes they purport to (women in gaming, etc), and to cap it all off the implicated journalism outlets spent a week publishing articles declaring that "gamers are over as an identity" to try to neuter a sudden swell of outrage at the corruption, dubbed #gamergate by Adam Baldwin, and literally dozens of thousands of posts on reddit and other internet discussion mediums (even 4chan) get deleted by moderators with known contact to Zoe. There's a big ol' rat's nest of interconnectivity via intimate relationships or plain old money changing hands between a lot of names in the indie development world, the Social Justice scene, and most of the websites that cover gaming - ironically the only one that seems to have clean hands in this affair is IGN.

Sep 6, 2014#251

Bowielee

Sep 6, 2014#252

Charlie Don't Surf

Those are three of the most biased overviews I've read yet

Sep 6, 2014#253

Hailey Knight

I laughed at this:

Sep 6, 2014#254

Reverent-one

Jay said:
She's also a terrible person and various previous event come to light including one where she personally killed off an event where people were trying to get some type of thing going for women dev makers to get into to get their game published and made. For apparently... "women would get exploited". but I feel otherwise.

GasBandit said:
Undisclosed conflicts of interest abound, manufactured professional victimhood for profit is the order of the day, the central characters in the story leverage their connections and notoriety to stomp out competing organizations that promote the same causes they purport to (women in gaming, etc),

It should be noted that the group running the event in question don't think she had the malicious intent being ascribed to her, see their statement here. Relevant quotes:

Regarding our grievances with Zoe Quinn, an associate of hers, posted my Facebook information. Zoe did not add any information to the post, nor did she post my phone number or email. The subsequent death threat I received via email was not orchestrated by Zoe. Nor was the DDOSing of our website or the banning of us from Twitter. She was simply the most famous voice in a choir of people that did not understand the project.

I honestly think at the time, everything she said about the project, she thought was an appropriate way to deal what she perceived as a threat to woman in the industry. This immediate reaction is reflected in the coverage of the project.

They think she didn't know what she was talking about when she criticized their event, but not that she was trying to get them shut down for her own benefit.

Sep 6, 2014#255

GasBandit

That's a big change from "she fucking doxxed me." Wonder if promises of support were made.

Sep 6, 2014#256

Reverent-one

Or if the initial accusation was just angry ranting on the internet without actual support.

Sep 6, 2014#257

ScytheRexx

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Those are three of the most biased overviews I've read yet

Welcome to the internet, bro. Go on and type out your own break down, and marvel at how it, too, is not 100% unbiased. Not even the people experiencing it the most right now go into it without some form of personal confirmation bias.

Sep 6, 2014#258

GasBandit

ScytheRexx said:
Welcome to the internet, bro. Go on and type out your own break down, and marvel at how it, too, is not 100% unbiased. Not even the people experiencing it the most right now go into it without some form of personal confirmation bias.

I've got charlie's version right here:

"All gamers are misogynists who hate zoe because she's a woman in their treehouse, and all this stuff about gaming journalist corruption is a smokescreen to hide the bashing of women."

Sep 6, 2014#259

Hailey Knight

I'd post a version, but I've had a hard time following all the twists and turns since most of this story occurs after the fact with who's mad at who. It feels like somehow it was decided THIS would be the big thing to get pissed about with game journalism, when there's plenty of other crap for people to get angry about too, and yet they don't show this level of internet rage. It all reeks of the same shit that goes on during election season, except there doesn't seem to be anything to gain.

Sep 6, 2014#260

AshburnerX

Most fair and balanced version I can manage:

- Quinn enters the industry, has trouble drumming up support for projects, starts promoting herself as a female game developer
- Shortly after, people at wizardchan start giving her a hard time. This abuse catapults her into the limelight, though all of the accounts of the so called harassers were created just before this all happened, leading many to believe it was staged
- Around this time Quinn enters the first of several extra-relationship affairs, 3 of which were involved in the gaming press, 2 of which were indie devs (one of which was her boss on her game).
- Quinn is hired to work on a game (it was Depresson Quest?), right after allegedly sleeping with her boss.
- The whole Mountain Dew sponsored game jam thing happens. There is reason to believe that coverage was delayed so that Quinn could get the donation page for HER game jam up first, to maximize the take.
- Around this time The Fine Young Capitalists start their project to get more female developed games made. Quinn calls in exploit ion and suddenly (suspiciously) TFYC start getting doxxed. The project is abandoned for the time being.
- Quinn becomes a bit of indie darling, starts doing more game jams. More the alleged rendezvous happen, all at times when Quinn and her projects could use a boost in the limelight.
- Quinn and her boyfriend separate temporarily, as he has begun to get suspicious of her. During this time he finds out that she'd been with people while they were together. He calls her out on it and she spills the beans to him about, implicating at least 5 people.
- Ex-boyfriend puts all of this up online
- Internet Hate Machine clicks on and people reveal themselves to be monsters. People hack into Quinn's stuff, start spreading the naked photos of herself that she had been selling online. Death threats against Quinn, Sarkesian, and others start to pop up. Both Quinn and Sarkesian go into real world hiding to avoid getting ganked by some asshole who doesn't have any skin in this.
- Games Journalists flip on the people paying their checks, deny any involvement or claim that they weren't influenced. Many claim that it doesn't matter anyway, using the Palestine Defense to point out worse abuses than this one, or that the end game would still be small potatoes. These people have missed the point entirely.
- Phil Fish claims that people hacked him for his support of Quinn, revealing important business details for all the world to see. This would have been impossible for anyone to do due to the security of his web host, suggesting that Fish doxxed himself to ether drum up support for Quinn or justify his own exit from the industry.
- The Fine Young Capitalists renew their project, declare a truce after months of saying Quinn doxxed them. It is believed they've been promised support for their silence.

That she had the affairs really isn't in question. There is sufficient evidence to suggest she did. The real question is where or not these affairs were used as a means to advance her career. If you look at the timeline, it does appear that she only started getting bumps in awareness around the time she slept with these people. Now is this simply because she was friends with everyone involved or was it something more unethical? I'm old school when it comes to ethics; to me, it doesn't matter if she got this support via sexual favor or just friendship... the appearance of impropriety IS impropriety. As such, her actions and the actions of her paramours have tainted the credibility of not just the games journalism industry on the whole (which is a feat in and of itself) but also the indie development community. It's not the worse thing ever but these people should have known better.

That said, just about everyone on both sides have proven themselves to be terrible people. The journalists have shown themselves to be self interested and are downplaying the entire thing because the end game is low stake enough (people can LIVE on the money they get doing this?) that it's not a huge deal. The gamers are being fucking monsters, enacting a purge on the industry with threats of violence. Just about everyone is guilty of something...

Sep 6, 2014#261

HCGLNS

Mathias said:
Can someone explain to me in like 2 or 3 sentences what the fuck is going on? I feel like this whole fiasco isn't worth taking more time than that to research.

Small people acting like douches outrages other small people.
Nice people fucked over by douchey people.
Small insignificant section of general population gives a fuck.

Sep 6, 2014#262

Mathias

Alright. Thanks guys. I can continue not giving a shit about this.

Seriously this hand slapping drama is almost as bad as the ol' Scott Kurtz vs. Tim Buckley crap-o-rama.

These people all remind me of those annoying office workers that stir up bullshit drama at work.

Sep 6, 2014#263

ThatNickGuy

I've tried - admittedly, not very hard - to try understanding what's going on. I'm pretty much with @Mathias on this: really just don't give a shit because it's become way too complicated to even try to comprehend.

Sep 6, 2014#264

Zappit

Making it more confusing, apparently 4Chan went way the hell out of their way to further stir up more shit between gamers and the SJW crowd.

https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate

Sep 6, 2014#265

AshburnerX

Zappit said:
Making it more confusing, apparently 4Chan went way the hell out of their way to further stir up more shit between gamers and the SJW crowd.

https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate

This is news? I fully expected this was going on or would start the second the Quinn news broke. Everyone was calling for 4chan to ether exonerate, incriminate, or just plain go vigilante on Quinn. That they chose to make fools of EVERYONE involved is perfectly in character but ultimately irrelevant. The Journalists are pointing this out as some kind of vindication... it isn't. They are still guilty of improper business relationships, no matter what your lax standards are.

It's possible to be friends with the people you cover professionally. Most of the people involved in this could not maintain that professionalism. It's not the worst thing in the world, but you don't suddenly become innocent because someone else did something worse.

Sep 7, 2014#266

GasBandit

That's what charlie posted last page.

Sep 7, 2014#267

Charlie Don't Surf

I just want the ugliness in the "gamer" community to go away and to stop driving good people out of it. They're supposed to just be random things you do for fun, not an identity about other-ing and marginalizing all women.

Sep 7, 2014#268

AshburnerX

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I just want the ugliness in the "gamer" community to go away and to stop driving good people out of it. They're supposed to just be random things you do for fun, not an identity about other-ing and marginalizing all women.

Like it or not, for a lot of young people it's the only group they get to be part of and as someone who spent most of his childhood and teenage years excluded from his peers for one reason or another, I get why it matters. It's the same reason why a lot of people still carry around their KISS Army cards or Boy Scouts of America cards and it's just as important.

Sep 7, 2014#269

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
Like it or not, for a lot of young people it's the only group they get to be part of and as someone who spent most of his childhood and teenage years excluded from his peers for one reason or another, I get why it matters. It's the same reason why a lot of people still carry around their KISS Army cards or Boy Scouts of America cards and it's just as important.

There being a community makes sense, but I agree with Charlie; there's no reason for it to be so infused with douchebags. Part of the problem may be that while the gaming draws people who are outcast without reason, it also draws people who are outcast because no one wants to put up with their shit. From what I gather, it used to be a lot of teenagers, and yeah, there are people who are shitheads as teenagers, but they grow out of it. These ones don't, for whatever reason.

What I don't understand is the sweeping "no girls allowed" type of crap. In my groups during school, and even just as much online, guys were happy to have girls getting involved, hanging out, etc. But then I've talked to my wife who grew up in the mid-west and she said the guys in her neighborhood didn't want girls playing video games. I'm just ... what? Why would you not want girls around? Girls are great. Women are great. Having friends is great. I don't get it.

Sep 7, 2014#270

AshburnerX

Zero Esc said:
What I don't understand is the sweeping "no girls allowed" type of crap. In my groups during school, and even just as much online, guys were happy to have girls getting involved, hanging out, etc. But then I've talked to my wife who grew up in the mid-west and she said the guys in her neighborhood didn't want girls playing video games. I'm just ... what? Why would you not want girls around? Girls are great. Women are great. Having friends is great. I don't get it.

See, you don't get it because you were ALLOWED into those groups in school. People wanted you around. These are the kids who had no one and nothing to turn to, turning them into bitter, frightened assholes. What they are seeing now are the people who rejected/reject them in their lives (cool people, jocks, women, etc.) coming into the one place that accepted them and changing it to fit THEIR needs... and now they are scared that the only home they've ever known is going to throw them away just like everyone else did. Why do you think the gaming community rails about rehashed yearly franchises like Madden, FIFA, Call of Duty, and the like? It's not just because these are terrible games... these are terrible games being made for dewchuggers and dudebros. You know... the people the industry caters to but don't give a shit about anything else in it? These kids and maladjusted adults are seeing the industry turn it's back on the kind of stuff THEY want in order to make money off of the casual audience and it scares the crap out of them... and now they have to worry about women too?

This kind of thing happens in every hobbyist industry. D&D is getting a lot of shit right now for being inclusive to minorities and the LGBT community... women still get treated as unequal players in collectible card games... female heavy metal fans are generally considered to be ether groupies, girlfriends of metal fans, or sluts... I'd be willing to bet there are hobby train enthusiasts that are upset that some woman is building her models in a less than realistic fashion. This isn't limited to gaming, it happens everywhere that disaffected people come together around a passion. Hell, it's basically how skinheads, the KKK, and neo-nazis operate: find rejected youngsters, give them a home and identity, and they will cling to it like a life raft. No one wants to face the world alone.

Mind you, this is all reactionary bullshit. Gaming is for everyone, for better or worse. The great unwashed and rejected underclass of gaming aren't right to be doing this. I'm simply saying that, as someone who was rejected by his peers growing up... I get why they are doing it. It's wrong, but I get it.

Sep 7, 2014#271

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
See, you don't get it because you were ALLOWED into those groups in school. People wanted you around.

I really don't want to make this about me, but ...

This is before reading the rest of your post. I think I posted about this before, but I don't blame you for not remembering. People didn't want me around; I stuck around anyway and pretended to have friends, and my brain interpreted abuse as affectionate teasing. But I still watched how they interacted and learned about them, hence my girl observation. I'm gonna cut it there; I just wanted to correct this.

I didn't turn out like these guys.

For the sake of the discussion, I'll assume that based on how I am now, having not been a teenager for 9 years and having grown-up and had friends for a long time now, I have Friend Privilege and am ignorant to the situation of a lot of other people.

These are the kids who had no one and nothing to turn to, turning them into bitter, frightened assholes. What they are seeing now are the people who rejected/reject them in their lives (cool people, jocks, women, etc.) coming into the one place that accepted them and changing it to fit THEIR needs... and now they are scared that the only home they've ever known is going to throw them away just like everyone else did. Why do you think the gaming community rails about rehashed yearly franchises like Madden, FIFA, Call of Duty, and the like? It's not just because these are terrible games... these are terrible games being made for dewchuggers and dudebros. You know... the people the industry caters to but don't give a shit about anything else in it? These kids and maladjusted adults are seeing the industry turn it's back on the kind of stuff THEY want in order to make money off of the casual audience and it scares the crap out of them...

But they've been saying that stuff since GTA got big in the late '90s. And if these guys hate Call of Duty so much, why are they the jerks one Xbox Live, shouting obscenities and racial slurs?

and now they have to worry about women too?

Still doesn't explain this. Women can be outcasts too. People can be outcast because of their race, their gender, sexuality, religion, their hobbies, their ideas, etc. If you're an outcast, there's a wide pool of people who you can get to know and won't push you away, because they know how that feels. Something's got to be wrong before the outcast-ism sets in that says they still can't be friends with all these other kinds of people, even though they all know what each other is going through.

This kind of thing happens in every hobbyist industry. D&D is getting a lot of shit right now for being inclusive to minorities and the LGBT community... women still get treated as unequal players in collectible card games... female heavy metal fans are generally considered to be ether groupies, girlfriends of metal fans, or sluts... I'd be willing to bet there are hobby train enthusiasts that are upset that some woman is building her models in a less than realistic fashion. This isn't limited to gaming, it happens everywhere that disaffected people come together around a passion. Hell, it's basically how skinheads, the KKK, and neo-nazis operate: find rejected youngsters, give them a home and identity, and they will cling to it like a life raft. No one wants to face the world alone.

Mind you, this is all reactionary bullshit. Gaming is for everyone, for better or worse. The great unwashed and rejected underclass of gaming aren't right to be doing this. I'm simply saying that, as someone who was rejected by his peers growing up... I get why they are doing it. It's wrong, but I get it.

And to make my point stronger, you're not like these guys either. So I really feel something else is at play, be it regional or in each person's personal background, or if there's some undercurrent thing that feeds this. Because they don't rally like this against the dudebros, but women? Holy shit, does that ever stir the wasp nest.

Sep 7, 2014#272

Mathias

AshburnerX said:
See, you don't get it because you were ALLOWED into those groups in school. People wanted you around. These are the kids who had no one and nothing to turn to, turning them into bitter, frightened assholes. What they are seeing now are the people who rejected/reject them in their lives (cool people, jocks, women, etc.) coming into the one place that accepted them and changing it to fit THEIR needs... and now they are scared that the only home they've ever known is going to throw them away just like everyone else did. Why do you think the gaming community rails about rehashed yearly franchises like Madden, FIFA, Call of Duty, and the like? It's not just because these are terrible games... these are terrible games being made for dewchuggers and dudebros. You know... the people the industry caters to but don't give a shit about anything else in it? These kids and maladjusted adults are seeing the industry turn it's back on the kind of stuff THEY want in order to make money off of the casual audience and it scares the crap out of them... and now they have to worry about women too?

This kind of thing happens in every hobbyist industry. D&D is getting a lot of shit right now for being inclusive to minorities and the LGBT community... women still get treated as unequal players in collectible card games... female heavy metal fans are generally considered to be ether groupies, girlfriends of metal fans, or sluts... I'd be willing to bet there are hobby train enthusiasts that are upset that some woman is building her models in a less than realistic fashion. This isn't limited to gaming, it happens everywhere that disaffected people come together around a passion. Hell, it's basically how skinheads, the KKK, and neo-nazis operate: find rejected youngsters, give them a home and identity, and they will cling to it like a life raft. No one wants to face the world alone.

Mind you, this is all reactionary bullshit. Gaming is for everyone, for better or worse. The great unwashed and rejected underclass of gaming aren't right to be doing this. I'm simply saying that, as someone who was rejected by his peers growing up... I get why they are doing it. It's wrong, but I get it.

This most certainly does NOT NOT NOT happen in every hobbyist industry. Most hobbyists are more than happy to share their passion with other people and get others involved.

The gamer community is petty and juvenile because its main demographic is 15 -20 year old boys (and up to 30 year old *boys*). Period. There's a reason I play TF2 with everyone muted.

Sep 7, 2014#273

Hailey Knight

Also this:

female heavy metal fans are generally considered to be ether groupies, girlfriends of metal fans, or sluts...

Have you been to a metal concert? People there may look scary, but typically respect the hell out of women. You don't see this "lol sluts whores whores rape" Frank Miller shit.

Sep 7, 2014#274

HCGLNS

AshburnerX said:
D&D is getting a lot of shit right now for being inclusive to minorities and the LGBT community...

Could you share your sources for this statement please.

Sep 7, 2014#275

Hailey Knight

HCGLNS said:
Could you share your sources for this statement please.

I don't have links offhand, but I've seen comments pulled from Twitter and somewhere else. Bunch of rejects are pissed that the Human page in the new books is a black woman. I don't know if there are other things they're pissed about, but I presume they're a minority in the D&D community. At the very least, I can verify that this has occurred from my own observation.

Sep 7, 2014#276

AshburnerX

Zero Esc said:
I really don't want to make this about me, but ...

This is before reading the rest of your post. I think I posted about this before, but I don't blame you for not remembering. People didn't want me around; I stuck around anyway and pretended to have friends, and my brain interpreted abuse as affectionate teasing. But I still watched how they interacted and learned about them, hence my girl observation. I'm gonna cut it there; I just wanted to correct this.

I didn't turn out like these guys.

For the sake of the discussion, I'll assume that based on how I am now, having not been a teenager for 9 years and having grown-up and had friends for a long time now, I have Friend Privilege and am ignorant to the situation of a lot of other people.

Nah man... it was out of line to say it like I did and you didn't deserve it. And no, I don't think I'd ever seen that post, sorry.

Zero Esc said:
But they've been saying that stuff since GTA got big in the late '90s. And if these guys hate Call of Duty so much, why are they the jerks one Xbox Live, shouting obscenities and racial slurs?

It's probably more than fair to call that 40% dudebros that do it for kicks/40% gamers abusing their anonymity/20% who actually hate gay people. But as for why it's still going on... it's because they are an easy target. It's easy to look at the self interested dewchugger and proclaim him and everything he does is what is wrong with the industry (and it IS part of the problem) but it's done because the alternative is to examine what is actually wrong with the industry right now (it's toxic members) and deciding what should or even can be done about it. Dudebros are the dragon ravaging the countryside... toxic gamers are the advisers telling you that the dragon is the problem while they rob the kingdom blind. You can fight the dragon, but it's hard to keep your house in order.

Zero Esc said:
Still doesn't explain this. Women can be outcasts too. People can be outcast because of their race, their gender, sexuality, religion, their hobbies, their ideas, etc. If you're an outcast, there's a wide pool of people who you can get to know and won't push you away, because they know how that feels. Something's got to be wrong before the outcast-ism sets in that says they still can't be friends with all these other kinds of people, even though they all know what each other is going through.

Some people react to pain by gaining empathy. Some people react to it by isolating themselves. Others lash out at anyone and everything that gets near. It's not hard to see which people are the ones causing the problem right now.

Zero Esc said:
And to make my point stronger, you're not like these guys either.

I've had 24 years of drugs and therapy, 2 suicide attempts, and almost a 5 years of self reflection since I've been off the medication and out of therapy. I'm not like them because there was actually something WRONG with me beyond my lack of social experiences and I had an outlet beyond gaming (a psychologist). I gained empathy instead of learning to hate others (instead I learned to hate myself). But not everyone is that lucky. If they were, we wouldn't have a problem to begin with.[DOUBLEPOST=1410095153,1410094979][/DOUBLEPOST]

Zero Esc said:
I don't have links offhand, but I've seen comments pulled from Twitter and somewhere else. Bunch of rejects are pissed that the Human page in the new books is a black woman. I don't know if there are other things they're pissed about, but I presume they're a minority in the D&D community. At the very least, I can verify that this has occurred from my own observation.

Here's a fine example of hatred. I got it from an article Rich Burlew (Order of the tick) tweeted today.

Sep 7, 2014#277

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
Nah man... it was out of line to say it like I did and you didn't deserve it. And no, I don't think I'd ever seen that post, sorry.

It's no big deal; I try to mention pre-college as little as possible because I don't like remembering it anyway. It's easier to say "high school friends" than explain that the people I'm talking about didn't even like me, let alone weren't friends.

Some people react to pain by gaining empathy. Some people react to it by isolating themselves. Others lash out at anyone and everything that gets near. It's not hard to see which people are the ones causing the problem right now.

If there's a silver lining to this stuff, it's that these guys aren't really gaining traction and really never could.

I've had 24 years of drugs and therapy, 2 suicide attempts, and almost a 5 years of self reflection since I've been off the medication and out of therapy. I'm not like them because there was actually something WRONG with me beyond my lack of social experiences and I had an outlet beyond gaming (a psychologist). I gained empathy instead of learning to hate others (instead I learned to hate myself). But not everyone is that lucky. If they were, we wouldn't have a problem to begin with.

Well, I'm glad you're with us now.

Here's a fine example of hatred. I got it from an article Rich Burlew (Order of the tick) tweeted today.

A viewpoint like in that first link seems to come from the idea that gender stuff, sexuality, race, etc should only be mentioned when making a defense of it, and that to state it for the sake of inclusiveness is only a political gesture, not as a welcome to different kinds of people. It's the same perspective that sees no importance in greater diversity of characters, as if minorities in different aspects only exist to assert their existence as opposed to because they're people.

Sep 7, 2014#278

HCGLNS

The website you linked has such limited traffic that the analytic sites I tried can not even measure it.

Can you link to any significant sources of discussion regarding this subject?

Sep 7, 2014#279

AshburnerX

HCGLNS said:
The website you linked has such limited traffic that the analytic sites I tried can not even measure it.

Can you link to any significant sources of discussion regarding this subject?

Perhaps "a lot" was a mis-measure. Regardless, some people are giving them shit over it because of course they are. Ironically, it's mostly people complaining that D&d was inclusive before (and it was, in practice) and saying this pandering like Esc said.

You can look around tumblr is you REALLY want to look it up.

Sep 7, 2014#280

GasBandit

Mathias said:
There's a reason I play TF2 with everyone muted.

Dear lord yes. "Rekt brah" "Get Rekt brah" "Nah brah" "Yah brah" "Rekt, brah" 24/7.

Sep 7, 2014#281

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Dear lord yes. "Rekt brah" "Get Rekt brah" "Nah brah" "Yah brah" "Rekt, brah" 24/7.

Sep 7, 2014#282

Bowielee

HCGLNS said:
The website you linked has such limited traffic that the analytic sites I tried can not even measure it.

Can you link to any significant sources of discussion regarding this subject?

I'm pretty skeptical of this claim as well. Anecdotally, a huge chunk of D&D gamers that I've known ARE women.

Sep 7, 2014#283

Tinwhistler

There are sociopathic douchebags in every community.

There's a sizable percentage more in the gaming community. Players, journalists and gaming devs alike. We can theorize as to the why's (social isolation, demographic, etc) but I believe it's true. For what it's worth, I think SJW douchebags are just the other side of the misogyny douchebag coin--they're both insufferable.

Douchebags are worse on the internet.

Sep 7, 2014#284

Mathias

GasBandit said:
Dear lord yes. "Rekt brah" "Get Rekt brah" "Nah brah" "Yah brah" "Rekt, brah" 24/7.

Rekt is the new pwned?

Sep 7, 2014#285

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
Dear lord yes. "Rekt brah" "Get Rekt brah" "Nah brah" "Yah brah" "Rekt, brah" 24/7.

You wanna go, brah? Yah wanna gah brah? Brah? Yah wah gah brah? Dah thah ah wah brah!

Sep 7, 2014#286

Mathias

Tinwhistler said:
There are sociopathic douchebags in every community.

There's a sizable percentage more in the gaming community. Players, journalists and gaming devs alike. We can theorize as to the why's (social isolation, demographic, etc) but I believe it's true. For what it's worth, I think SJW douchebags are just the other side of the misogyny douchebag coin--they're both insufferable.

Douchebags are worse on the internet.

You're absolutely right. If you think about many hobbies, they're done in person. Gaming is different in respect to the online aspect. Hell, the whole "noob" name calling culture is a direct result of that. If you were an insufferable asshole during a lan party or GoldenEye match, you wouldn't get invited back.

Sep 7, 2014#287

Null

The only thing that annoys me is D&D getting articles about how "awesome and inclusive" it is... for doing the exact same thing Pathfinder did in 2009. D&D gets articles talking about how inclusive it is, for having a picture of a woman of color in the PHB, and a letter saying "It's okay for players to have unconventional characters", Paizo gets people whining and saying they're quitting Pathfinder for being TOO inclusive by having an iconic character who is trans.

Sep 7, 2014#288

Frank

Null said:
The only thing that annoys me is D&D getting articles about how "awesome and inclusive" it is... for doing the exact same thing Pathfinder did in 2009. D&D gets articles talking about how inclusive it is, for having a picture of a woman of color in the PHB, and a letter saying "It's okay for players to have unconventional characters", Paizo gets people whining and saying they're quitting Pathfinder for being TOO inclusive by having an iconic character who is trans.

Whoa, which iconic is trans? Oh, the shaman. I had no idea.

Sep 7, 2014#289

GasBandit

Mathias said:
Rekt is the new pwned?

Apparently. It's absolutely asinine.

Sep 7, 2014#290

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:
Apparently. It's absolutely asinine.

I downvote every reddit post I see with "rekt" in it. I feel like I'm pissing into the wind.

Sep 7, 2014#291

Null

Frank said:
Whoa, which iconic is trans? Oh, the shaman. I had no idea.

Yeah. It's basically not treaded as a huge big deal, just part of who she is (she is the pronoun used in her iconic history). http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lgcn?Meet-the-Iconics-Shardra-Geltl

Sep 7, 2014#292

GasBandit

Anonymous responds to Quinn's chat logs, dissecting them point by point.

http://i.imgur.com/g385IJM.jpg

(huuuuuge picture, suspect most will TLDR, especially those who want to white knight)

Sep 7, 2014#293

Bowielee

At this point, I can't be bothered to care about either side of the argument.

Sep 8, 2014#294

Null

Yeah I've pretty much lost any sort of sympathy for either party.

Gaming journalism is corrupt and really fucked, but none of what anyone in this case is doing is helping - in fact, it's basically making everything worse by confusing the issue. Gaming in general does have some issues with women that need to be overcome - from the under-representation of female protagonists in gaming to the ways that women in the industry are treated. ZQ aside, reading some of the "tales from the trenches" about the game industry written by women and there is some really shocking behavior that is considered tolerable, and the knee jerk reaction to any complaints is, "Oh, you're making a big deal out of nothing." But cases like this, where someone uses measures designed to protect people as a bludgeon against the competition or valid criticism, are even worse.

Sep 8, 2014#295

Covar

Zero Esc said:
I don't have links offhand, but I've seen comments pulled from Twitter and somewhere else. Bunch of rejects are pissed that the Human page in the new books is a black woman. I don't know if there are other things they're pissed about, but I presume they're a minority in the D&D community. At the very least, I can verify that this has occurred from my own observation.

Is she a Cleric? Are they ripping off the Pathfinder characters?!!!! RAGEHWAHGWGL!!!!!!![DOUBLEPOST=1410192762,1410192182][/DOUBLEPOST]

Null said:
Yeah. It's basically not treaded as a huge big deal, just part of who she is (she is the pronoun used in her iconic history). http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lgcn?Meet-the-Iconics-Shardra-Geltl

Wait it's the Shaman? huh, I thought all the fuss was over the Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous.

You know I didn't even think about inclusion in RPGs until this thread. On the one hand it's very inclusive because players make the characters and (in many cases) the story, so a large part of the games diversity is based around the players/party themselves. On the other hand, There's a large amount of character artwork, miniatures, and pre-made worlds/modules/campaigns/adventure paths. This bares more consideration.

Sep 8, 2014#296

Frank

Jim's the rightest.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9711-On-Game-Journalism-Corruption

Sep 8, 2014#297

GasBandit

Frank said:
Jim's the rightest.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9711-On-Game-Journalism-Corruption

It's nice to say "everybody calm down and let's have a discussion about this" but then he goes on to focus only on the assholishness of the loud gamer types while glossing over/ignoring/breezing past the actual issues of concern vis a vis the game "journalists," and plays it all off as "yeah we're all friends, it's no big deal" which ignores the whole thing about money changing hands, mutual incestuous promotion, and even gets the sequence of events re: Jenn Frank flat out wrong. And let's not forget that Escapists' head honcho closed ranks and circled the wagons with Kotaku ("If Stephen Totillo supports Nathan Grayson, that's all the evidence you need") in their discussion thread on the matter, and in the same thread admitted that they put out a piece on "Zoe Quinn is being harrassed by wizardchan" on nothing more than her say alone (and even went on later to reiterate that they considered there being "no burden of proof on someone who is being hurt" - so apparently I can tell Greg Tito that Cliffy B is repeatedly sneaking into my room at night and punching me in the stomach while I sleep and apparently my word is good enough). Then they started clamping down and breaking out the deletions and bans in the thread, with only a "I told you guys this thread would be heavily moderated" shrug.

Sep 8, 2014#298

GasBandit

http://techraptor.net/2014/09/08/indie-developers-toughts-on-state-gaming-industry/

Sep 8, 2014#299

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
http://techraptor.net/2014/09/08/indie-developers-toughts-on-state-gaming-industry/

Techraptor needs someone to spellcheck their urls.

Sep 11, 2014#300

Tiger Tsang

Well now, shit just got a bit more interesting. Bloody hell, what an incestuous bunch of assholes.

Sep 11, 2014#301

GasBandit

MUH SOJINY

*snrk*

Sep 11, 2014#302

Bowielee

isn't this the same video that's been posted twice already?

Sep 11, 2014#303

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
isn't this the same video that's been posted twice already?

No, it wasn't last time, either. They just use the same intro gag.

Sep 11, 2014#304

AshburnerX

Things just keep circling the drain for this... and the sad part is NOTHING will happen about it because the journalists are in bed with everyone involved (non-literally... well, for most of them anyway).

Sep 11, 2014#305

Ravenpoe

Tiger Tsang said:
Well now, shit just got a bit more interesting. Bloody hell, what an incestuous bunch of assholes.

The creator of that video sure went a long way just to call somebody a slut.

Sep 11, 2014#306

GasBandit

Ravenpoe said:
The creator of that video sure went a long way just to call somebody a slut.

He, and the rest of us, would not have cared how many people she's slept with if they were not all influential members of the indie gaming/reviewing/awarding community operating basically an indie game cartel.

Sep 11, 2014#307

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
He, and the rest of us, would not have cared how many people she's slept with if they were not all influential members of the indie gaming/reviewing/awarding community operating basically an indie game cartel.

Basically this. The sex is not important, only the entanglements it creates and right now we have a vertible mafia.

Sep 11, 2014#308

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
He, and the rest of us, would not have cared how many people she's slept with if they were not all influential members of the indie gaming/reviewing/awarding community operating basically an indie game cartel.

Oh, I don't disagree. I just feel like the very end of the video was unnecessary. It's the same way I feel about Anita Sarkeesian. I don't feel she's -wrong- in her statements, just that the way she presents them weakens the argument.

Sep 12, 2014#309

GasBandit

Remember when "police were called" by Sarkeesian?

(edit- more context)

Sep 12, 2014#310

Mathias

Sep 12, 2014#311

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Remember when "police were called" by Sarkeesian?

(edit- more context)

Sigh ...

Sep 12, 2014#312

Frank

GasBandit said:
Remember when "police were called" by Sarkeesian?

(edit- more context)

The FBI does.

Sep 12, 2014#313

GasBandit

Frank said:
The FBI does.

Excellent.

Now, do you honestly believe the FBI told her she should just quit doing her "work?"

Sep 12, 2014#314

Frank

I don't know, I didn't talk to them about it.

But keep moving those goal posts.

Sep 12, 2014#315

GasBandit

Frank said:
I don't know, I didn't talk to them about it.

But keep moving those goal posts.

Frank, you're a cop. If a girl told you she was getting death threats because of her work, would you ever say "well maybe you should stop your work then?"

Sep 12, 2014#316

Frank

At one time, I might've. Especially if it was something as trivial as talking about video games.

Now, I wouldn't. That doesn't mean someone didn't.

Sep 12, 2014#317

GasBandit

Interesting.

Sep 12, 2014#318

Hailey Knight

In Soviet Canada

Police the Fuck

... that didn't work so well.

Sep 13, 2014#319

CrimsonSoul

Zero Esc said:
In Soviet Canada

Police the Fuck

... that didn't work so well.

In Soviet Canada police fuck you... No that doesn't work either.. That happens everywhere

Sep 13, 2014#320

Bowielee

Honestly GB, if you're trying to insinuate that there's no such thing as an insensitive jerk who's a police officer, you're making yourself look like a Charlie.

Sep 13, 2014#321

Hailey Knight

Yeah, individual officers have said worse about more severe cases; I wouldn't call this out of the realm of possibility. Does that mean it happened? There's no way to prove it. But it's certainly possible.

EDIT: Wait, wouldn't Charlie say ALL police officers are insensitive jerks or something?

Sep 13, 2014#322

Bowielee

Zero Esc said:
Yeah, individual officers have said worse about more severe cases; I wouldn't call this out of the realm of possibility. Does that mean it happened? There's no way to prove it. But it's certainly possible.

EDIT: Wait, wouldn't Charlie say ALL police officers are insensitive jerks or something?

The implication of GB's post is that no police officer would ever say something like that. It's being a Charlie in the term of generalizing the police population as all being some homogenous hivemind that all think and feel the same.

Sep 13, 2014#323

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Honestly GB, if you're trying to insinuate that there's no such thing as an insensitive jerk who's a police officer, you're making yourself look like a Charlie.

There's being an insensitive jerk, and there's being that guy. I'll say this, I didn't think there'd be a cop (or FBI agent as the case may be) who'd say "Well if they're threatening your life cuz of your work, stop working! Case closed, aight?" It seems to me that if they're going to catch the guy, they'd want her to keep doing it so they can net him when next he threatens.

However, Frank's response showed me I might be overestimating such people, sadly.

Sep 13, 2014#324

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
There's being an insensitive jerk, and there's being that guy. I'll say this, I didn't think there'd be a cop (or FBI agent as the case may be) who'd say "Well if they're threatening your life cuz of your work, stop working! Case closed, aight?" It seems to me that if they're going to catch the guy, they'd want her to keep doing it so they can net him when next he threatens.

However, Frank's response showed me I might be overestimating such people, sadly.

Not to split hairs, but there's a difference between "If they're threatening your life because of your work, stop doing that type of work" and "If they're threatening your life because of your work, stop working."

One says stop being a crybaby and do something else. The other says stop being a crybaby and run away from the world.

Given the amount of victim blaming that has come out of the police department over the years in terms of everything from race, gender, and sexuality, I don't find it hard to believe that some asshole told her this.

I'm curious to know why you're so intent on destroying her character, rather than attacking her arguments. That seems, I don't know, beneath you, intellectually.

Sep 13, 2014#325

PatrThom

I'm thinking the amount of 'cred' given to the victim, regardless of jurisdiction, will probably depend on how many unfounded reports that person has made previously, regardless of gender.
At least, that's the way I hope it works.

--Patrick

Sep 13, 2014#326

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
I'm thinking the amount of 'cred' given to the victim, regardless of jurisdiction, will probably depend on how many unfounded reports that person has made previously, regardless of gender.
At least, that's the way I hope it works.

--Patrick

Even I'm not that doe-eyed. One's perspective on any given situation in front of you is influenced by previous experiences with that kind of situation.

Bowielee said:
Not to split hairs, but there's a difference between "If they're threatening your life because of your work, stop doing that type of work" and "If they're threatening your life because of your work, stop working."

One says stop being a crybaby and do something else. The other says stop being a crybaby and run away from the world.

I consider it differently (so long as your line of work isn't inherently dangerous). This would not be the case of someone complaining about bee stings because they took a job tending bees. If I get a death threat because somebody doesn't like a commercial I voice, am I expected to say "Welp, that's 11 years of radio experience down the tubes, time to start over! Is McDonald's hiring?"

Given the amount of victim blaming that has come out of the police department over the years in terms of everything from race, gender, and sexuality, I don't find it hard to believe that some asshole told her this.

"The" police department... which are we talking about here? Apparently she didn't go to the police in any case, but rather the FBI? Does the FBI have a track record of victim blaming? (Not a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know)

I'm curious to know why you're so intent on destroying her character, rather than attacking her arguments. That seems, I don't know, beneath you, intellectually.

I've spent time in the past addressing her bad examples and flawed arguments. This was a case of a picture that floated through my feed, and this seemed like a logical place to post it.

Sep 13, 2014#327

Hailey Knight

I could see it as more credible because to a lot of people, it's just internet, not a person's work. We know that's not the case, but you'd be amazed how many people in law enforcement, political positions, even companies, don't "get it" when it comes to anything on the internet. So I could see a police officer telling her that and meaning "so stop making them Youtubey videos".

Sep 13, 2014#328

Null

From what I understand, she reported it to the SFPD, who then turned it over to the FBI, since it's a case that definitely crosses state lines and might be argued to fall under domestic terrorism, depending on your interpretation of the law. (some of the messages would certainly qualify for 'making terroristic threats')

Sep 13, 2014#329

GasBandit

There'd be a record of her call with the SFPD then even if they decided to involve the FBI, wouldn't there?

Sep 13, 2014#330

PatrThom

Zero Esc said:
you'd be amazed how many people in law enforcement, political positions, even companies, don't "get it" when it comes to anything on the internet.

"It's not a big truck! You can't just dump stuff on it."
No, I would not be surprised at all.[DOUBLEPOST=1410634444,1410634397][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
There'd be a record of her call with the SFPD then even if they decided to involve the FBI, wouldn't there?

Assuming the recording equipment didn't "mysteriously fail at that point," sure.

--Patrick

Sep 13, 2014#331

Null

Right, and 911 calls are confidential, and Law Enforcement Agencies generally don't discuss active cases, so is there any way to find out that she didn't?

Also, it's starting to get weird how invested people are in her being a liar about everything. Has she done ethically questionable things? Absolutely. Is she being harassed? Based on how discussions about her are going right now, that's safe to say yes as well. Has she done anything to earn death threats? Not by any reasonable standard.

Sep 13, 2014#332

Bowielee

I seriously don't understand why GB(and I guess people like him) is so up her ass. It's like he actively hates her for some reason, like irrationally and overwhelmingly.

Sep 13, 2014#333

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I seriously don't understand why GB(and I guess people like him) is so up her ass. It's like he actively hates her for some reason, like irrationally and overwhelmingly.

She is professionally enriching herself by actively harming video gaming. At least Bobby Kotick and EA don't pretend to a social cause to do so.

Sep 13, 2014#334

Mathias

GasBandit said:
She is professionally enriching herself by actively harming video gaming. At least Bobby Kotick and EA don't pretend to a social cause to do so.

I think you're stretching it there, chief.

I have not heard of this person at all before this, and I doubt it'll be relevant by December. What you literally said is akin to saying someone like Tim Buckley or Scott Kurtz can bring down comic books.

Sep 13, 2014#335

Jay

Those who wanted to see Anita disappear have catastrophically failed. Instead of panning her videos and moving on, they give her more attention for the sake of attention. They harass her - giving her fuel to the cause and some go beyond the line and actively do these type of things... which is basically pushing the agenda even further.

If people really wanted her to disappear it was pretty straight forward.... stop watching her videos... stop giving her attention... just disregard her shite and move the fuck on.

Sep 13, 2014#336

GasBandit

Mathias said:
I think you're stretching it there, chief.

I have not heard of this person at all before this,

No offense, Math, but you've kinda been under a rock. Her videos have millions of views and her schtick has been burning up the gaming news websites and forums for years, including this one. As shown recently in this thread, she's also connected - by both social and financial ties - to the Silverstream Media clique that right now has a chokehold on the indie dev scene, the big indie gaming rewards show, and a large chunk of the gaming media.

and I doubt it'll be relevant by December.

She's been doing her "tropes vs women" series for 3 years now, what's going to happen to make her stop by december? Especially given that it's so lucrative for her (to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars).

What you literally said is akin to saying someone like Tim Buckley or Scott Kurtz can bring down comic books.

That metaphor fails because Sarkeesian isn't making games. Rather, she's making money (a not insubstantial amount of money) by being the gaming feminist who cried wolf. But she's got supporters in the gaming industry, eager to jump on the bandwagon and prove how progressive and forward thinking they are.

Just a hypothetical example: As I referenced before, Sarkeesian uses a sequence in one of the Hitman games as an example of a game that "invites and rewards" players to commit violence on innocent strippers - despite the fact that the game actually penalizes you for harming them, and rewards you for sneaking by them without them noticing you. But that doesn't matter - by her altering the perception of this mechanic, it's not at all farfetched to imagine some mucketymuck in a suit at Square Enix saying "we've got to address this, no hurting women bystanders in the next game. Take out the option." A small adjustment, one less plastic soldier in the sandbox, but they add up. It's already been done - the gaming "feministas" forced artwork changes in the female armor for divinity: original sin. Because, you know, a breastplate that bares a midriff is tantamount to endorsing sexual slavery.

Over time, we notice that games just kinda suck more than they used to. Developers start making decisions based on angry feminist PR first and foremost, yet another self-censoring filter on the creative process.[DOUBLEPOST=1410655178,1410655144][/DOUBLEPOST]

Jay said:
If people really wanted her to disappear it was pretty straight forward.... stop watching her videos... stop giving her attention... just disregard her shite and move the fuck on.

That might have worked if half the gaming media wasn't in her clique.

Sep 14, 2014#337

ScytheRexx

Honestly, I don't really care about the sex.

I get in a fit over this stuff is the general dishonesty and profiteering fueled by cries of social justice.

Zoe slept with some guys? Whatever. Zoe lies about threats and misogyny in order to green-light her game, and further uses those connections and donators to then get rich off a possibly non-existent game jam? I have a problem with that.

Same with Anita. She has the right to say whatever she wants, but I hope she actually believes what she is saying, and is not using a hot button issue knowing that it will have a large donator base. The larger her "victimhood" the more money she will make from that base screaming misogyny. Thus why some of her videos she is digging hard for any hint of misogyny even when it's not there, because it supports her pockets to keep the outrage alive. This is also why people question the whole cop thing, because it seems awfully convenient.

This is the same reason I can't stand a lot of politicians.

Sep 14, 2014#338

Mathias

I played the Depression Quest game last night. It really, really, really sucks. It's just bad...

Sep 14, 2014#339

Bowielee

Sep 14, 2014#340

ThatNickGuy

Honestly, I welcome changes to gaming if that's what happens. They're not going to suck and we're not going to lose the types of games we already have. If anything, there will just be a greater diversity in games, which is something it really needs, in my opinion. Is no one else interested or excited by the prospect of new, diversive, different games? Or introducing a new audience to the medium? Or having new developers that bring something new to the medium?

Aren't some people saying these days that a lot of games are the same? Or they're all starting to kind of mesh together in some instances? I know I feel that way, especially about AAA games, as more studios just copy each other just to stay relevant. Indie gaming certainly has more diversity, but content-wise, it's still relatively similar (I say that as a very broad statement, keep in mind). Again, introducing new developers and new ideas that diversify the content would just bring more and new types of games.

It feels like gamers are treating people like Sarkeesian like Jack Thompson that kept going on and on about violence in video games. He wanted to destroy gaming. He wanted to tear down this "horrible" medium. He was on a warpath. Anita Sarkeesian isn't. At the worst, she just wants to change it from what it is now and make it more diversified and equal. And I, for one, welcome that. Yet gamers are treating her exactly as if she's another Jack Thompson when she couldn't be anything further from him.

Sep 14, 2014#341

Hailey Knight

Jack Thompson liked Mass Effect. He didn't want to tear down all gaming, just stuff like GTA.

Sep 14, 2014#342

AshburnerX

ThatNickGuy said:
Honestly, I welcome changes to gaming if that's what happens. They're not going to suck and we're not going to lose the types of games we already have. If anything, there will just be a greater diversity in games, which is something it really needs, in my opinion. Is no one else interested or excited by the prospect of new, diversive, different games? Or introducing a new audience to the medium? Or having new developers that bring something new to the medium?

Aren't some people saying these days that a lot of games are the same? Or they're all starting to kind of mesh together in some instances? I know I feel that way, especially about AAA games, as more studios just copy each other just to stay relevant. Indie gaming certainly has more diversity, but content-wise, it's still relatively similar (I say that as a very broad statement, keep in mind). Again, introducing new developers and new ideas that diversify the content would just bring more and new types of games.

It feels like gamers are treating people like Sarkeesian like Jack Thompson that kept going on and on about violence in video games. He wanted to destroy gaming. He wanted to tear down this "horrible" medium. He was on a warpath. Anita Sarkeesian isn't. At the worst, she just wants to change it from what it is now and make it more diversified and equal. And I, for one, welcome that. Yet gamers are treating her exactly as if she's another Jack Thompson when she couldn't be anything further from him.

At the same time, what your actually saying is "I don't care what kind of people get to be leaders in the industry or what they did to get there, as long as they make things better." What I think is that gamers need better feminist icons than the ones we have, because this whole thing really just shows that we're getting the ones we deserve, not the ones we need. Gaming should be and deserves to be a platform for all races, all genders, all... whatever to enjoy and to create for, but it's not worth the price if it's only accomplished through back room favors, predetermined outcomes, and people trying to enrich themselves by manipulating the controversy an the crowd.

We all want gaming to be better for everyone... but we can do better than what we've been given. People like The Fine Young Capitalists should be leading the way, not Zoey Quinn. Make THEM into the heroes they deserve to be.

Sep 14, 2014#343

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
At the same time, what your actually saying is "I don't care what kind of people get to be leaders in the industry or what they did to get there, as long as they make things better." What I think is that gamers need better feminist icons than the ones we have, because this whole thing really just shows that we're getting the ones we deserve, not the ones we need. Gaming should be and deserves to be a platform for all races, all genders, all... whatever to enjoy and to create for, but it's not worth the price if it's only accomplished through back room favors, predetermined outcomes, and people trying to enrich themselves by manipulating the controversy an the crowd.

We all want gaming to be better for everyone... but we can do better than what we've been given. People like The Fine Young Capitalists should be leading the way, not Zoey Quinn. Make THEM into the heroes they deserve to be.

I think Nick was talking about Sarkeesian, not Quinn, in response to those saying people like Sarkeesian are ruining gaming.

This was probably the wrong thread to bring up the Sarkeesian stuff. I'm not saying it should've continued in the gaming news thread, but Sarkeesian and Quinn are two very different issues.

Sep 14, 2014#344

Bowielee

Yeah, I think we stopped talking about Quinn a while ago.

Sep 14, 2014#345

ThatNickGuy

AshburnerX said:
At the same time, what your actually saying is "I don't care what kind of people get to be leaders in the industry or what they did to get there, as long as they make things better..

Sorry, but if that's where you're starting off, that's where I stop reading. Because I never said that. Not once. Don't put words in my mouth.

Sep 14, 2014#346

Hailey Knight

If I may speak as a Nintendo fan--I'm good. Things are good for me. I am in the good zone for gaming.

Sep 14, 2014#347

Bowielee

AshburnerX said:
At the same time, what your actually saying is "I don't care what kind of people get to be leaders in the industry or what they did to get there, as long as they make things better." What I think is that gamers need better feminist icons than the ones we have, because this whole thing really just shows that we're getting the ones we deserve, not the ones we need. Gaming should be and deserves to be a platform for all races, all genders, all... whatever to enjoy and to create for, but it's not worth the price if it's only accomplished through back room favors, predetermined outcomes, and people trying to enrich themselves by manipulating the controversy an the crowd.

We all want gaming to be better for everyone... but we can do better than what we've been given. People like The Fine Young Capitalists should be leading the way, not Zoey Quinn. Make THEM into the heroes they deserve to be.

This is EXACTLY what you people don't get. We're not making these women into heroes, we're defending their right not to be harassed.

Sep 14, 2014#348

AshburnerX

Bowielee said:
This is EXACTLY what you people don't get. We're not making these women into heroes, we're defending their right not to be harassed.

You people? Fuck off for even comparing me to those assholes who think it's okay to send them vitriol, post naked pictures of them, or threaten to rape/kill them. I may think Quinn is scum and Sarkesian is a hack, but that's a far cry from DOING anything to them. They have every right to try and produce their content and voice their message and no one should stop them... but pointing out that they've been involved in a lot unethical shit that's helped their careers isn't harassment, it's fair judgement, especially with the rather hefty amount of evidence we've been given.

How they got where they are is suspicious and worthy of investigation. What is being done TO them is monstrous. But this isn't a two-sided issue and I'm not suddenly some MRA wackjob who wants them dead because I think we could find better women to represent gaming.

Sep 14, 2014#349

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
How they got where they are is suspicious and worthy of investigation.

I'm pretty sure Sarkeesian got a Youtube account.

You may call me Detective Esc if you wish.

Sep 14, 2014#350

ThatNickGuy

You know who I wish we had more of as far as females in gaming? More like Roberta Williams and Jane Jensen. Williams co-founded Sierra and was instrumental in making a lot of headway in PC gaming.

Sep 14, 2014#351

AshburnerX

ThatNickGuy said:
You know who I wish we had more of as far as females in gaming? More like Roberta Williams and Jane Jensen. Williams co-founded Sierra and was instrumental in making a lot of headway in PC gaming.

Didn't Williams write like every Kings Quest game?

I just looked this up. She wrote all of Kings Quest, Laura Bow, Shivers, Phantasmagoria, and has a Facebook game coming out called Odd Manor. How more people don't know about her is kind of a crime.

Sep 14, 2014#352

Bowielee

AshburnerX said:
You people? Fuck off for even comparing me to those assholes who think it's okay to send them vitriol, post naked pictures of them, or threaten to rape/kill them. I may think Quinn is scum and Sarkesian is a hack, but that's a far cry from DOING anything to them. They have every right to try and produce their content and voice their message and no one should stop them... but pointing out that they've been involved in a lot unethical shit that's helped their careers isn't harassment, it's fair judgement, especially with the rather hefty amount of evidence we've been given.

How they got where they are is suspicious and worthy of investigation. What is being done TO them is monstrous. But this isn't a two-sided issue and I'm not suddenly some MRA wackjob who wants them dead because I think we could find better women to represent gaming.

You're just a big fan of putting words in people's mouth today, aren't you. Reread my statement. I said that what you personally don't get is that we aren't trying to make these women out to be heroes. I never came close to comparing anyone in this thread to the people who are sending death threats and such.[DOUBLEPOST=1410720501,1410720366][/DOUBLEPOST]I also forget that every person on the internet is a paragon of virtue who has never EVER advanced their career or furthered their own goals in ethically questionable ways.

The amount of cognitive dissonance correction in this thread is off the charts.

Sep 14, 2014#353

ScytheRexx

Bowielee said:
I also forget that every person on the internet is a paragon of virtue who has never EVER advanced their career or furthered their own goals in ethically questionable ways.

The amount of cognitive dissonance correction in this thread is off the charts.

Bowie, I respect you, but I think you are starting to let your emotions cloud your reasoning. First of all, no one here is saying death threats and violence are the answer to anything. All we are saying is the few idiots that are doing that shouldn't give unethical promotion a free pass.

Second, I am a bit dumbfounded you are now arguing cognitive dissonance in a paragraph like that. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please enlighten me what you meant by the first sentence? Are you telling me to "get over it" because people have and always will further their own goals in ethically questionable ways? Isn't part of Anita's biggest arguments that we SHOULDN'T just give in and accept the status quo when it comes to female representation in gaming? That we shouldn't just sweep it under the rug as "the usual"?

So what should we do? Accept the status quo because "it happens" or actually voice our opinions on possible unethical practices?

Sep 14, 2014#354

Bowielee

You know what, you are right. I'm letting this thread piss me off, so I'm going to bow out.[DOUBLEPOST=1410723047,1410722946][/DOUBLEPOST]I think Scythe's post would apply to Ashburner just as much as me, though.

Sep 14, 2014#355

ScytheRexx

Bowielee said:
I think Scythe's post would apply to Ashburner just as much as me, though.

I won't say there is not some cognitive dissonance on both sides, but this issue is complex, and unless one of us is psychic none of us will know the truth, only what we hear through reports and our own bias. I know I hold some bias, I openly admit it, but it does not mean I shouldn't be allowed to discuss it in some manner, and neither should others.

I should stress that I used to agree with Anita. I still feel female representation and the "good ole boys" club was (and still is) horrible. I want more female developers. I want more games with strong female protagonists. The problem is the internet likes to look at itself as black and white. You are either FOR Anita's message or you are the enemy, and vise versa to those that hate Anita, you agree with her, you are a fem-nazi. I lost faith in Anita when her videos felt like they were pandering to her audience by digging up anything that could even have a hint of misogyny. It makes one side rage for abolishment of all forms of sexuality in gaming and the other throw out death threats because "they taking away our boobies". Nothing gets done.

I want female voices that explain, but don't pander. I want female developers that make a name for themselves without cheating the system with their boobs (either through sex or "victimhood"). It's not black and white and shouldn't be treated as such. Neither side should hold the broom.

Sep 14, 2014#356

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
I also forget that every person on the internet is a paragon of virtue who has never EVER advanced their career or furthered their own goals in ethically questionable ways.

Hey! I am a person on the internet who has never EVER advanced my career in ethically questionable ways!

In fact, I have never advanced my career. So there!

Sep 15, 2014#357

Jay

Hey folks, let's all get along. We can use my body to make this happen.

*unzips*

/Whispers

Green light me

Sep 15, 2014#358

GasBandit

Sexual Objectification in Video Games Doesn't Matter.

Sep 15, 2014#359

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
Sexual Objectification in Video Games Doesn't Matter.

This commenter pretty much sums up my reaction opinion on the matter.

"My only problem with "objectification" (bad use of the word considering what I'll be using as an example) is when it breaks immersion. When there is no particular reason for a character to be dressed like an idiot (no matter the gender or body type of said character) it completely destroys my immersion.
It's most glaring when men are dressed in battle armor while women are dressed in metal bikinis. It's just weird. I'm not yelling sexism, I just want this stuff to follow some sort of basic logic. Not saying sex is bad, not saying nudity is bad, I'm saying that being overly impractical just to show off abs or butt is silly and I wont be able to take a game seriously if it does that.
I know how most people reading this site feel on "feminist"-issues and I want to definitely make sure to say that I think the "games are sexist"-circlejerk goes overboard all the time and I agree that games do not cause sexism.
All I'm saying is that dressing people like people in a game makes it easier for me to see them as people. If they dress differently than people would in real life, explain the culture of the universe and tell me what makes them do so."[DOUBLEPOST=1410812786,1410812657][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
Sexual Objectification in Video Games Doesn't Matter.

Also that article is a total opinion piece not based off of any science or research. I do know that research in this area is being done, but it's all in the early stages. The effects of violence in video games can not be transitively linked to sexual portrayals.

Addendum: I also want to make one thing perfectly clear, I'm in no way saying that Sarkesian is some sort of paragon of virtue and that she's not as biased as anyone else involved in the discussion, but I'm glad she's there to promote the discussion. As with anyone, if you try to look at them with an objective eye, has some good points and some bad points and yes, she has made some errors. What I find irksome is the witch huntery that's involved.

Sep 15, 2014#360

GasBandit

It is indeed an opinion piece. Sorry if my terse transcription of the article's title made it seem I was posting "proof."

Sep 15, 2014#361

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
Sexual Objectification in Video Games Doesn't Matter.

His central tenet is not as well established as he asserts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_controversies#Scientific_debate

The American Psychological Association released an official statement in 2005, which said that:

There appears to be evidence that exposure to violent media increases feelings of hostility, thoughts about aggression, suspicions about the motives of others, and demonstrates violence as a method to deal with potential conflict situations.

Comprehensive analysis of violent interactive video game research suggests such exposure increases aggressive behavior, thoughts, angry feelings, physiological arousal, and decreases helpful behavior.

Studies suggest that sexualized violence in the media has been linked to increases in violence towards women, rape myth acceptance and anti-women attitudes.

And that the APA:

Advocates reduction of all violence in videogames and interactive media marketed to children and youth.

That research should be made regarding the role of social learning, sexism, negative depiction of minorities, and gender on the effects of violence in video games and interactive media on children, adolescents, and young adults.

That it engages those responsible for developing violent video games and interactive media in addressing the issue that playing violent video games may increase aggressive thoughts and aggressive behaviors in children, youth, and young adults, and that these effects may be greater than the well documented effects of exposure to violent television and movies.

That it recommends to the entertainment industry that the depiction of the consequences of violent behavior be associated with negative social consequences.

That it supports a rating system that accurately reflects the content of video games and interactive media.

The statement is pending revision in 2014.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_controversies#cite_note-49

That said, effects are probably short-lived and do not necessarily generalize to sexual attitudes (though it wouldn't be surprising if they did).

Sep 15, 2014#362

GasBandit

MindDetective said:
His central tenet is not as well established as he asserts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_controversies#Scientific_debate

That said, effects are probably short-lived and do not necessarily generalize to sexual attitudes (though it wouldn't be surprising if they did).

One minor but potentially important correction - *her. The author is Lucy Walcott.

Sep 15, 2014#363

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
One minor but potentially important correction - *her. The author is Lucy Walcott.

Isn't assuming that her gender has anything to do with the validity of her opinions sexist?

Sep 15, 2014#364

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Isn't assuming that her gender has anything to do with the validity of her opinions sexist?

Just trying to head off at the pass any comments about a male author's point of view on sexual objectification.

Sep 15, 2014#365

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
One minor but potentially important correction - *her. The author is Lucy Walcott.

My bad. I didn't examine the author that closely.

Sep 15, 2014#366

fade

Awareness works. As an anecdote, I can tell you I never thought twice about some of the stupid sexist stuff in video games and comics. Now it's obvious, and even repulsive. Like the infamous simultaneous boobs-butt pose. I notice it everywhere now, and I don't find it attractive anymore at all. I won't lie: I did find it attractive, but now it just looks like so much meat on display.

Sep 15, 2014#367

Bowielee

fade said:
Awareness works. As an anecdote, I can tell you I never thought twice about some of the stupid sexist stuff in video games and comics. Now it's obvious, and even repulsive. Like the infamous simultaneous boobs-butt pose. I notice it everywhere now, and I don't find it attractive anymore at all. I won't lie: I did find it attractive, but now it just looks like so much meat on display.

A big example of that is the current attitudes towards smoking.

Sep 16, 2014#368

Terrik

Head on over to cracked.com for more shenanigans.

Sep 16, 2014#369

ThatNickGuy

Terrik said:
Head on over to cracked.com for more shenanigans.

And the actual link because someone is too lazy to post it:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-as-internets-most-hated-person/

Sep 16, 2014#370

Terrik

ThatNickGuy said:
And the actual link because someone is too lazy to post it:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-as-internets-most-hated-person/

Sep 16, 2014#371

fade

The whole thing is really disheartening. I expected more out of human beings, I guess. This is just like the shit with Deepika Padukone in India, where people went nuts because it turns out, and keep this to yourself, women have boobs.

http://www.firstpost.com/bollywood/...ika-padukone-takes-leading-daily-1712031.html

The comments.... ugh.

Sep 16, 2014#372

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
And the actual link because someone is too lazy to post it:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-as-internets-most-hated-person/

Wonder what her cut of the ad revenue is.

Sep 16, 2014#373

PatrThom

AshburnerX said:
Didn't Williams write like every Kings Quest game?

I just looked this up. She wrote all of Kings Quest, Laura Bow, Shivers, Phantasmagoria, and has a Facebook game coming out called Odd Manor. How more people don't know about her is kind of a crime.

She had more than a little influence with Torin's Passage, too.

--Patrick

Sep 16, 2014#374

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
Wonder what her cut of the ad revenue is.

I'm pretty sure Cracked writers get paid upfront and it's likely not that much.

Sep 16, 2014#375

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
I'm pretty sure Cracked writers get paid upfront and it's likely not that much.

It wouldn't shock me to learn they paid her entirely in manufactured legitimacy.

Sep 16, 2014#376

Bowielee

I'm not even gonna.

Sep 16, 2014#377

GasBandit

You can't even?

Oh, hey, look, her Patreon is up $700/mo since last month, that's quite a raise.

Sep 16, 2014#378

Tinwhistler

AshburnerX said:
Didn't Williams write like every Kings Quest game?

I just looked this up. She wrote all of Kings Quest, Laura Bow, Shivers, Phantasmagoria, and has a Facebook game coming out called Odd Manor. How more people don't know about her is kind of a crime.

I played a lot of Williams' games on the old apple2+ back in the day. But her heydey was 30 years ago and the internet's got a short memory sometimes. I never gave a second thought to the fact that the games had a female designer listed on the box (though in those days, it was more likely to be a ziploc bag with a cardstock graphic and a disk inside). But I'm pretty sure that in the late 80's the computer game playing demographic was a lot different than it is today.

Sep 16, 2014#379

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
You can't even?

Oh, hey, look, her Patreon is up $700/mo since last month, that's quite a raise.

I haven't even read it, I don't really care about that whole situation anymore.

Sep 16, 2014#380

CrimsonSoul

Nm already posted.

Sep 16, 2014#381

ScytheRexx

This is why it's so hard to discuss it. Because of the fucktards threatening her and hacking her friends, any actual, valid criticism or issues with unethical promotion can just be drowned out. Soon you are lumped with those asshats because you are not willing to take everything she says at face value after all the other lies.

Oddly that post on Cracked made me more annoyed with her, not because I think she should live through that, she shouldn't, no matter how unethical she may be. It's that damn ending where she is like "Haha look at me I got my name in with Tim Shaefer and Will Weaton, BOOM" that just reminds me how she takes advantage of her victimhood to promote her own career just like her game.

Sep 16, 2014#382

GasBandit

ScytheRexx said:
It's that damn ending where she is like "Haha look at me I got my name in with Tim Shaefer and Will Weaton, BOOM" that just reminds me how she takes advantage of her victimhood to promote her own career just like her game.

LOOKING AT ME, I R GAME DEVELOPER

Sep 16, 2014#383

Null

ScytheRexx said:
This is why it's so hard to discuss it. Because of the fucktards threatening her and hacking her friends, any actual, valid criticism or issues with unethical promotion can just be drowned out. Soon you are lumped with those asshats because you are not willing to take everything she says at face value after all the other lies.

Oddly that post on Cracked made me more annoyed with her, not because I think she should live through that, she shouldn't, no matter how unethical she may be. It's that damn ending where she is like "Haha look at me I got my name in with Tim Shaefer and Will Weaton, BOOM" that just reminds me how she takes advantage of her victimhood to promote her own career just like her game.

And conversely, by milking her victimhood, engaging in said unethical practices, and using protective measures to squelch valid criticism AND competition, she makes it very hard to defend the valid points that she and others like her have made. There ARE problems in the industry, but bringing them up now makes you automatically perceived as supporting someone whose own conduct is suspect, whether you do or not.

Sep 16, 2014#384

Tinwhistler

saw this on reddit today from the "Factual Feminist"

Sep 16, 2014#385

GasBandit

Tinwhistler said:
saw this on reddit today from the "Factual Feminist"

Ah! Christina Hoff Sommers again! I've noted her before in other threads, here and here. She seems to have quite a good grasp of the situation.

Sep 16, 2014#386

ThatNickGuy

"They want the male video game culture to die."

Wow, that's completely baseless and false.

Sep 16, 2014#387

Bowielee

Yup, not even going to touch that one either.

Sheesh, and you complain about Sarkesian being smug and speaking down to her targeted group.

Also, the correlation of a drop in crime and the rise in the popularity is a terribly bad correlation. There are confounds aplenty involved in those trends.

Sep 16, 2014#388

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
"They want the male video game culture to die."

Wow, that's completely baseless and false.

Except many of them basically say exactly that.

Bowielee said:
Yup, not even going to touch that one either.

Sheesh, and you complain about Sarkesian being smug and speaking down to her targeted group.

Pitard, meet hoist.

Also, the correlation of a drop in crime and the rise in the popularity is a terribly bad correlation. There are confounds aplenty involved in those trends.

Violent crime in general, as I've said in many threads in the past defending video games and guns and whatnot, has gone down every single year since the release of DOOM. Violent video games don't make kids violent, and while there are sexist video games, they are not as prevalent as the neo-feminists say, and on top of that, apparently have not that much effect on how gamers behave in real life.

"But what about all the rampant sexism I hear in Xbox live voice chat?"

Well, you also hear rampant racism, antisemitism, homophobia, xenophobia etc in the same places, but that isn't indicative of the actual majority mindset. In fact, I wonder if it isn't just a temporary swelling of competition-based aggression looking for an easy outlet, you mexican jew lizard.

"If they're young, tell him he's too young. Old, too old. Fat, too fat."

Sep 16, 2014#389

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
Except many of them basically say exactly that.

Citation required.

Sep 16, 2014#390

Bowielee

You really don't understand how behavioral statistics work, do you?Firstly, without causal experiments, any correlation is useless, I know that you know science enough to know that this is true. As MD pointed out earlier, empirical studies have shown that violent videogames can increase aggression. Does that mean that it's pumping out little murder machines? Not in the least.

As for the falling crime statistics, that can be attributed to any number of factors that have nothing to do with movies, video games, comic books or whatever else cultural boogeyman you want to compare it to.

The long and the short of it is that NO ONE has enough evidence to conclude this definitively for sexism or violence one way or the other, so arguing over it is like pissing in the wind.

Sep 16, 2014#391

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
Citation required.

Outside of tumblr (where they do loudly and often, but it's tumblr), they do so by presenting it as a fait accompli. You need look no further than the articles mentioned in this thread and its sisters - they say things like "Gaming is no longer the sole province of the male, it's a fact" or "gamers, as a (white male) identity, are over" or "there are more women gamers now than men, and the marketers have had to accept that, it's already done." Suddenly, in the blink of an eye, gaming is now "more female than male?" The male gaming culture has died, they proclaim in their wishful thinking... leaving actual gamers staring around at their sausagefest and wondering which planet the columnists are doing their research.

Bowielee said:
You really don't understand how behavioral statistics work, do you?Firstly, without causal experiments, any correlation is useless, I know that you know science enough to know that this is true. As MD pointed out earlier, studies have shown that violent videogames can increase aggression. Does that mean that it's pumping out little murder machines? Not in the least.

Temporarily, the man said. You know what else increases aggression temporarily? Every single competitive sport.

As for the falling crime statistics, that can be attributed to any number of factors that have nothing to do with movies, video games, comic books or whatever else cultural boogeyman you want to compare it to.

I'm not saying video games cause lower crime, I'm saying that the continued decrease in crime shows the assertion that video games cause violent crime is baseless - the number and popularity of violent video games has increased exponentially over the last few decades - surely if there was any casual relationship between them and actual violence, there would not have been an observed marked decrease in violence to such a very notably huge degree.

Sep 16, 2014#392

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
Temporarily, the man said. You know what else increases aggression temporarily? Every single competitive sport.

What you're saying in no way contradicts what I'm saying. We're agreeing.

GasBandit said:
I'm not saying video games cause lower crime, I'm saying that the continued decrease in crime shows the assertion that video games cause violent crime is baseless - the number and popularity of violent video games has increased exponentially over the last few decades - surely if there was any casual relationship between them and actual violence, there would not have been an observed marked decrease in violence to such a very notably huge degree.

Again, I'm not comfortable saying one way or the other as this is simply a correlation. You're implying that there is no causation based off of this correlation, but this is a false assertion. I'M saying that I'm not comfortable saying either way if this is true or not because there are far too many possible confounding variables to draw any direct causal link, positively or negatively to this.

You're also assuming that I'm arguing that video games cause violent crime, which I never have.

What really needs to be done is a longitudinal study on the cumulative effect of these temporary increases in aggression, if any. Even if it doesn't cause violent crime, it could possibly have other detrimental effects that we're not aware of.

So, long story short, I'm viewing this as as a social scientist, not a media alarmist as you seem to think that I am.

As to the objectification of women in video games (regardless of what effect they have on women) is a real thing and you can find examples of it. It is definitely worth discussing if this is a good thing or a bad thing. This is getting into moral territory, not scientific territory.

Personally, I find it icky, tacky and, as I said earlier, ludicrously stupid at points, but that's my personal opinion.

Should women be allowed to have a voice and choice as to what sort of games they want to play? I would say that the answer is yes. I don't see what the problem is with allowing postpubescent boys having their tittie flashing games along side other games. Diversity in an entertainment medium is a good thing.

It also IS a fact that male gamers are no longer the only gamers. Even if it's only a percentage of the gamers who are women, that doesn't mean those people no longer exist because they aren't in the majority.

Sep 16, 2014#393

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:
Ah! Christina Hoff Sommers again! I've noted her before in other threads, here and here. She seems to have quite a good grasp of the situation.

my views in most things tend to be a bit moderate (even though I'm certainly a little left of center on many issues), but I find that in today's political, media, and internet climate, the reasonable moderate tends to be overshadowed by loud extremists on both sides.

Sep 16, 2014#394

AshburnerX

Bowielee said:
What really needs to be done is a longitudinal study on the cumulative effect of these temporary increases in aggression, if any. Even if it doesn't cause violent crime, it could possibly have other detrimental effects that we're not aware of.

I think the real problem with this is that you could never get a large enough sample size that you could control for all the factors you'd want to test in any meaningful way. We aren't testing a soft drink here... we're testing the long term effects of an entire medium on developing minds of different ages, socioeconomic situations, race, and sex. You also need to do this over a long enough period of time (we're talking at least early childhood to teenage years) to get the kind of results you need.

But the biggest factor? You kind of need kids who LIKE video games at an early enough age to start the tests and you need them to keep liking them for the years of testing. This means we're talking prior exposure at minimum, which defeats the point.

Sep 16, 2014#395

ScytheRexx

Bowielee said:
Should women be allowed to have a voice and choice as to what sort of games they want to play? I would say that the answer is yes. I don't see what the problem is with allowing postpubescent boys having their tittie flashing games along side other games. Diversity in an entertainment medium is a good thing.

This is all I want in this craziness. I get angry because I feel people like Anita enrage a certain base not towards inclusion or diversification, but by demonizing all female sexuality as "exploitative" and "misogyny" in the game space. Though that has little to due with my issues with Zoe, which has less to do with her gender and more to do with the fact she is exploiting the same people Anita enrages for her personal promotion and gain.

Sep 16, 2014#396

Bowielee

AshburnerX said:
I think the real problem with this is that you could never get a large enough sample size that you could control for all the factors you'd want to test in any meaningful way. We aren't testing a soft drink here... we're testing the long term effects of an entire medium on developing minds of different ages, socioeconomic situations, race, and sex. You also need to do this over a long enough period of time (we're talking at least early childhood to teenage years) to get the kind of results you need.

But the biggest factor? You kind of need kids who LIKE video games at an early enough age to start the tests and you need them to keep liking them for the years of testing. This means we're talking prior exposure at minimum, which defeats the point.

This is, in a nutshell, why experimental psychology is hard.[DOUBLEPOST=1410920008,1410919835][/DOUBLEPOST]I also forgot to mention that even if women themselves aren't half the gaming population, the fact that this is such a divisive issue across gender lines would indicate that there are some male gamers who are just as sick and tired of the way women are portrayed in video games. Of course, that's never even been considered in this whole debate, for the most part.

Sep 16, 2014#397

Hailey Knight

What the hell is the male gaming culture anyway? Call of Duty + Mountain Dew + Doritos? Magic the Gathering tournaments? Civilization 5? A World of Warcraft raid?

Sep 16, 2014#398

GasBandit

Zero Esc said:
What the hell is the male gaming culture anyway?

Why, it's the

of course.

Sep 17, 2014#399

Hailey Knight

I'm trying to ascertain what the thing is that people are afraid they'll lose. I had to ask why earlier in the thread and Ashburner explained. Now I'm asking about the what.

Sep 17, 2014#400

AshburnerX

Zero Esc said:
I'm trying to ascertain what the thing is that people are afraid they'll lose. I had to ask why earlier in the thread and Ashburner explained. Now I'm asking about the what.

They think it's a zero sum game: that any game designed for and by women won't appeal to them, so therefore every game designed that way is millions that could have been spent on something THEY would have wanted instead. While this is true to an extent (every time a soulless shooter is made, something more interesting withers on the vine) it's also amazingly elf-centered. Never mind that every game isn't designed with that particular audience in mind... this thinking basically says that devs should be catering to them exclusively instead of making what they want.

Sep 17, 2014#401

Celt Z

I'm still not sure where this "male gaming culture" came from. Granted my experience is anecdotal, but relevant to the topic: growing up, almost everyone I knew had a Nintendo, regardless of gender. (This is in a lower-middle class area, just for reference.) We all used to pass around Nintendo Power and talk about tricks and achievements between boys and girls and there was never a mention of this being "not for girls". We had birthday parties and hang-outs that involved long periods in the arcades where us girls were pumping our quarters into the machines for hours. In the 90's, I knew more girls who had the later systems (Sega Genesis, etc.) than guys. (Most, not all, guys I knew stopped at the NES). In fact, I remember one slumber party around '96 where we had two TVs setup: One playing Empire Records while the other was used for a Mario* round-robin tournament since there were 8 of us and only 2 controllers.
I know in another thread Gas posted a graphic about gaming-inclusion that started around '95, which would probably be roughly when we started to feel pushed out: as graphics improved, women characters were getting designed more and more sexually objectifying, beyond the occasional bathing suits from the past. We had been making the same purchases at Funcoland and The Wiz, but suddenly, once "gaming" was getting called a "hobby" rather than just fun entertainment, it started to become a "no girls allowed" environment. I admit, like a number of my girl friends, I took a break from gaming, but I knew a few who didn't, despite the growing noninclusive attitude. (The exception may have been Pokemon: the great equalizer.) But as I also said in that other thread, girls who were gaming, or interested in gaming, didn't get the same attention or have a way to have our voices heard. Being depicted through "the male gaze" (for lack of a better description) can be disheartening, especially when we're playing the games for the same escapism or power fantasy that guys are. I don't think it's taking anything away from gaming by calling out the worst examples. The jury is still out on how much affect is has on one's attitudes towards gender roles, but it's still insulting to a large part of the gaming audience, both men and women. Personally, I don't think the over-all quality of these games wouldn't drop if they remove overly-sexual or sexually violent situations, or maybe it would emphasize how horrible they really are if they were far less common.

(*I can't remember which Mario-I want to say 3? But I do remember we were taking about RENT and the Chicago revival. How's that for 90's imagery?)

Sep 17, 2014#402

Bowielee

I think there may be relationship to the rise of the "bro-gamer" and this trend of delineating between female and male gaming culture, but that would be complete conjecture on my part.

Actually, the more I think about it, this may actually hold some water. It seems like as this demographic got tapped, originally through the sport franchises then eventually Halo and COD and the like, corporate culture started viewing video games as an actual "blockbuster" revenue screen. This may have led them to ratchet up their demographic targeting (those sweet, sweet white male 18-24 dollars).

Sep 17, 2014#403

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I think there may be relationship to the rise of the "bro-gamer" and this trend of delineating between female and male gaming culture, but that would be complete conjecture on my part.

Actually, the more I think about it, this may actually hold some water. It seems like as this demographic got tapped, originally through the sport franchises then eventually Halo and COD and the like, corporate culture started viewing video games as an actual "blockbuster" revenue screen. This may have led them to ratchet up their demographic targeting (those sweet, sweet white male 18-24 dollars).

I remember we (and others, as illustrated) have posited that the rise of the bro-gamer coincided with when video games started to suck more than they used to... but this is an interesting point you raise, too.

Sep 17, 2014#404

rac3r_x

"SpaceFucker 3d" I believe that was the working title for Mass Effect?

Sep 17, 2014#405

AshburnerX

rac3r_x said:
"SpaceFucker 3d" I believe that was the working title for Mass Effect?

I'm almost certain it's a reference to Blasto, which was a TERRIBLE game.

Sep 17, 2014#406

Null

AshburnerX said:
I'm almost certain it's a reference to Blasto, which was a TERRIBLE game.

Holy shit yeah that was awful. Almost unplayable. And by almost, I mean "returned to Blockbuster after 2 hours".

Sep 17, 2014#407

ScytheRexx

Which is all the more funny because Mass Effect has a character named Blasto.

Sep 17, 2014#408

Jay

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...t-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite

Sep 17, 2014#409

Bowielee

That article doesn't make any sense to me. They're mad because journalists are sharing opinions with each other on a private distribution list? I don't see any sort of mandating that one thing or another can't be published. If they were actually colluding with publishers/developers, I'd get that there was an issue showing collusion to sell video games, but this doesn't look like anything other than a conversation about the situation.

Sep 17, 2014#410

Frank

Jesus Christ....seriously? There isn't a profession in existence that doesn't have some sort of network like that to discuss shit.

Sep 17, 2014#411

Null

It's Brietbart, so you count on things either being a hoax, a scam, or just simply mistaken.

Sep 18, 2014#412

ThatNickGuy

Bowielee said:
That article doesn't make any sense to me. They're mad because journalists are sharing opinions with each other on a private distribution list? I don't see any sort of mandating that one thing or another can't be published. If they were actually colluding with publishers/developers, I'd get that there was an issue showing collusion to sell video games, but this doesn't look like anything other than a conversation about the situation.

Pretty much this. It's all baseless conjecture based on some small, circumstantial evidence. Since when are people from different gaming sites not allowed to talk to each other? That's like artists or writers at Marvel and DC not allowed to talk with each other.

Sep 18, 2014#413

ScytheRexx

http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ways-gamers-still-suck-at-dealing-with-women_p2/

Cracked seems to be really focusing on this these days. Though out of all the posts, this one felt like it hit the most proper notes about why this whole issue and why nothing will change. You can't bring up legitimate issues about unethical self-promotion because asstards like to turn everything into who can shout the most obscenities and sexist/racial slurs, and it is true women get this the worst. People like me who care more about the unethical promotion over the "OMG SHE IS A WHORE LOL" might as well just not say anything, because any maturity I try to post gets drowned out by those assholes and my entire argument never matters.

Sep 18, 2014#414

GasBandit

The Breitbart article doesn't say anything we didn't already assume was happening - that these sites collude to present a consistent narrative, much like the mainstream media does in political news. The way they all suddenly started declaring "gamers are over" in unison pretty much confirmed that.

Still, it does undermine their legitimacy. If 9 out of 10 doctors recommend Crest, it kinda tarnishes the recommendation if 7 or 8 of those 9 colluded in private before hand, deciding that "yes, we're going to all recommend Crest because Darren's tight with their sales rep."

ScytheRexx said:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ways-gamers-still-suck-at-dealing-with-women_p2/

Cracked seems to be really focusing on this these days. Though out of all the posts, this one felt like it hit the most proper notes about why this whole issue and why nothing will change. You can't bring up legitimate issues about unethical self-promotion because asstards like to turn everything into who can shout the most obscenities and sexist/racial slurs, and it is true women get this the worst. People like me who care more about the unethical promotion over the "OMG SHE IS A WHORE LOL" might as well just not say anything, because any maturity I try to post gets drowned out by those assholes and my entire argument never matters.

It's disappointing to see Cracked so crassy try to cash in on the controversy with obvious clickbait such as this and the article they got Quinn to write. They used to be better than buzzfeed. Still, one can't expect too much from a publication that will mostly be remembered as being desperate to fill MAD magazine's shoes but always being overshadowed by it.

Sep 18, 2014#415

Covar

GasBandit said:
They used to be better than buzzfeed.

Did they though? Cracked has always been poorly written, click bait, that for some reason a lot of people want to take as Gospel because it's in a list format and the author is arrogant and snarky.

Sep 18, 2014#416

ScytheRexx

Covar said:
Did they though? Cracked has always been poorly written, click bait, that for some reason a lot of people want to take as Gospel because it's in a list format and the author is arrogant and snarky.

They sometimes do have decent posts. Yes, it's a comedy website, and should always be looked at as such. However, even the worst comedians sometimes have a jewel of truth in them. Though I wish they were a bit more impartial. They obviously side on the opposite side of me when it comes to the unethical claims.

Sep 18, 2014#417

GasBandit

Covar said:
Did they though? Cracked has always been poorly written, click bait, that for some reason a lot of people want to take as Gospel because it's in a list format and the author is arrogant and snarky.

John Cheese's stuff is pretty good.

Sep 18, 2014#418

Frank

GasBandit said:
The way they all suddenly started declaring "gamers are over" in unison pretty much confirmed that.

Did they? There was that Leigh Alexander article that claimed this and then like 200 "Are gamers over?" articles that discussed it.

Sep 25, 2014#419

fade

As a parent, I can tell you that the games may not make my son and his friends more violent, but it most definitely desensitizes them to violence and gore. How that translates to causing violence, I cannot say. However, I do worry about a snowball situation where someone starts something, and these desensitized kids all start participating because it isn't shocking to them.

Sep 25, 2014#420

Hailey Knight

fade said:
As a parent, I can tell you that the games may not make my son and his friends more violent, but it most definitely desensitizes them to violence and gore. How that translates to causing violence, I cannot say. However, I do worry about a snowball situation where someone starts something, and these desensitized kids all start participating because it isn't shocking to them.

Probably depending on personality. I wouldn't say participation is a likely next step, but caring? Hard to say. Considering the games I had as a kid were Mario Bros, Sonic, and Final Fantasy VII, I'd say I'm more desensitized to violence through movies I saw and books I read than the games I played. There's always something now.

But there are certainly people who should not play violent video games because of who they are and the unique way it affects them, which is where it comes down to the parents to know their kid. I was allowed to watch those movies because my parents knew I had a clear distinction between fantasy and reality, and they let me read those books because they didn't screen them first and totally wouldn't have let me read them if they had. Books can fuck up a brain as much as any game. Don't let 10-year-olds read Dean Koontz.

Sep 25, 2014#421

Bowielee

Zero Esc said:
Probably depending on personality. I wouldn't say participation is a likely next step, but caring? Hard to say. Considering the games I had as a kid were Mario Bros, Sonic, and Final Fantasy VII, I'd say I'm more desensitized to violence through movies I saw and books I read than the games I played. There's always something now.

But there are certainly people who should not play violent video games because of who they are and the unique way it affects them, which is where it comes down to the parents to know their kid. I was allowed to watch those movies because my parents knew I had a clear distinction between fantasy and reality, and they let me read those books because they didn't screen them first and totally wouldn't have let me read them if they had. Books can fuck up a brain as much as any game. Don't let 10-year-olds read Dean Koontz.

I was reading Stephen King for as long as I was able to comprehend adult literature.

Sep 25, 2014#422

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
I was reading Stephen King for as long as I was able to comprehend adult literature.

I wish I'd been reading King that long. Instead it was Michael Crichton and Dean Koontz.

Sep 25, 2014#423

Ravenpoe

fade said:
As a parent, I can tell you that the games may not make my son and his friends more violent, but it most definitely desensitizes them to violence and gore. How that translates to causing violence, I cannot say. However, I do worry about a snowball situation where someone starts something, and these desensitized kids all start participating because it isn't shocking to them.

Desensitized to violence and gore, or desensitized to fictitious depictions of violence and gore? Because I think there's a difference. I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence to go on, since I'm too lazy to go looking for studies, but I know I myself am pretty desensitized to just about anything that can happen in a video game. But real life images of violence and gore (like the recent beheading videos people seem to want to link to when talking about them) make me incredibly uncomfortable.

Sep 26, 2014#424

LordRendar

I dont mind cutting off a 1000 heads in Dead Rising, or impaling someone in Skyrim.
Saw one beheading,couldnt sleep for days.

Sep 26, 2014#425

Hailey Knight

Actually, now that I think about it, you have a point. Seeing videos where people actually get shot gets under my skin like nothing in a game or movie.

Sep 26, 2014#426

Celt Z

Along the lines of what Poe and Fade are talking about, I wonder if the problem lies in context. If there isn't follow-through in emphasizing the difference between "implied/fantasy" violence and "actual" violence, that's where the desensitization takes place. When I knew I was going to have Li'l Z, I read through some psychology books on raising boys (for extra insight), and one thing I noticed is that they said, in most cases, empathy needs to be emphasized, starting from a young age. Also, that while most young boys tend to be aggressive in their play, aggression should not be confused with violence, and shouldn't be dismissed as such. (This can also apply to girls as well, but the numbers show a much higher occurence in boys.)

Growing up, I loved the horror/slasher/monster movies they showed on TV. I started reading Stephen King as a preteen. My pre-school self loved "Thriller". But while my parents were pretty liberal when it came to what I was exposed to, they tended to talk about it with me. Like talking about the make-up involved with all that special FX. They also made it a point to remember to show patience and kindness to other, and they practiced what they preached (in my presence, anyway). They reminded me it was important to remember how it would feel if I was in someone else's shoes. Even now, I still enjoy that stuff, but seeing people actually hurt, or "make believe" hurt in realistic ways, gets me upset.

Sep 26, 2014#427

fade

To me, books are far less desensitizing. Any visual is of your own making. Older movies, even as recently as the 90s are usually so hammy that it's hard to take it seriously. But the newer stuff, and video games where your character uses real weapons and people react in realistic ways, those are different to me. I for one was pretty shocked by the opening scene of Skyrim. My son saw it, despite my objections, and couldn't care less. Because it was nothing compared to the multiplayer CoD he plays at his friends' houses.

Sep 26, 2014#428

Bowielee

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/136/2/151/

Here's a more recent meta-analysis that was done. I know you can only see the abstract, but the gist of it is that former accusations of publishing bias against previous studies regarding video games and aggressive behavior, lower helping behaviors, and desensitization don't hold statistical water. It also shows that these effects aren't culturally unique to the US, they also looked at cross cultural results with Asian countries and found that their findings were the same.

That being said, aggressive behaviors, reduced helping behaviors, and desensitization don't automatically equate to violent outcomes, but that is where interventions such as what Z is talking about come in. I know that my mother allowed me to watch all the slasher films I wanted, but she also made sure that I understood that it was fake, this actually led to an obsession with special effects on my part and seriously wanted to do that as a career at one point.

What follows is by own opinion based on my knowledge of interventions and other social psychology stuff:
I think that the effects of violence portrayals in all media can be mitigated by parents, social peers, and other important people within a child's social hemisphere nurturing that child/teenager and modeling pro-social behaviors. While many of us may have had those influences, think for a moment about kids who are entrenched in this stuff who don't have strong mentor figures, small to no social circles, and are largely ignored and bullied. That leads to a pretty potent cocktail, especially when you add in post pubescent hormones, and the poor decision making that comes from that developmental stage. So while I don't think that violent media leads to direct violent outcomes, it CAN be a contributor.

So, long story short, there's a simple solution.

[DOUBLEPOST=1411738123,1411737899][/DOUBLEPOST]

fade said:
To me, books are far less desensitizing. Any visual is of your own making. Older movies, even as recently as the 90s are usually so hammy that it's hard to take it seriously. But the newer stuff, and video games where your character uses real weapons and people react in realistic ways, those are different to me. I for one was pretty shocked by the opening scene of Skyrim. My son saw it, despite my objections, and couldn't care less. Because it was nothing compared to the multiplayer CoD he plays at his friends' houses.

While I was writing my novel up there, you posted this. This has been looked at as well in research and desensitization from books is generally less than that in any sort of visual medium. It's a far different experience to read about graphic violence than it is to see it.[DOUBLEPOST=1411738185][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, I can tell from my own posts that I'm in full on research mode

Sep 26, 2014#429

fade

Well, I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about my son and his friends, and an observation I can trace to a definite cause. Of course we have discussions about how it's not real and all that. That kind of goes without saying. To be clear, I don't think that it's a root cause for increased violence (as I said in my first post), but I do worry about what it means to him in terms of empathy.

Sep 26, 2014#430

Bowielee

fade said:
Well, I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about my son and his friends, and an observation I can trace to a definite cause. Of course we have discussions about how it's not real and all that. That kind of goes without saying. To be clear, I don't think that it's a root cause for increased violence (as I said in my first post), but I do worry about what it means to him in terms of empathy.

I'm supporting your observation with actual research

Sep 26, 2014#431

Covar

Bowielee said:
That being said, aggressive behaviors, reduced helping behaviors, and desensitization don't automatically equate to violent outcomes, but that is where interventions such as what Z is talking about come in. I know that my mother allowed me to watch all the slasher films I wanted, but she also made sure that I understood that it was fake, this actually led to an obsession with special effects on my part and seriously wanted to do that as a career at one point.

I remember when Power Rangers became huge, most of their PSAs were about how the show isn't real and violence shouldn't be a response to problems. Apparently at the time (being in the target demo I don't really remember) there was a big concern over the violence because it was live action instead of animated.

Sep 26, 2014#432

SpecialKO

Which just reminds me of the episodes where they became cops....

Sep 26, 2014#433

Dave

I saw someone blow their brains out in front of me. I remember it in great detail. Had it been in a video game it would have been, "Whoa! Wicked!" and then forgotten.

Sep 26, 2014#434

Ravenpoe

Dave said:
I saw someone blow their brains out in front of me. I remember it in great detail. Had it been in a video game it would have been, "Whoa! Wicked!" and then forgotten.

I've never had to experience that in person, but I remember seeing that video of the politician that committed televised suicide by blowing his brains out. I've played all manner of violent video games, some of them super graphic and realistic, but this video (where you didn't even see honestly see a lot of gore) disturbed me right the fuck out.

Perhaps in a similar subject, I'll tell a story I've told here before. When I was very young, my aunt (against my mother's wishes) let me watch Nightmare on Elm Street. It scared the shit out of me, and I had nightmares that Freddy was going to come through my bed and kill me like he did to Johnny Depp. My mom then had me watch the making of behind the scenes video, where they show how Robert Englund gets put into the makeup chair to become Freddy, and how they made the fake blood, and set up all the special effect shots, etc etc. Even at that young age (I was around 5) it just clicked with me, like "Oh, it's just make believe." After that I was never afraid of horror movies again, and even became a big fan of them.

Sep 26, 2014#435

Dave

Your mom handled it beautifully! Seriously, I wouldn't have thought to do that, I'd have just drop-kicked my aunt through the goalposts of life.

Sep 26, 2014#436

Tress

The famous footage of a Viet Cong soldier executing a man on his knees has always haunted me somewhat, and I only saw it once. I've seen people executed in greater details dozens, if not hundreds, of times in games/movies/tv shows.

"In this, as in all things, context is king."

Sep 26, 2014#437

Null

Yeah there's a big different between knowing that an actual person was killed / killed themselves, and seeing a bunch of animation mimic the act. I don't like seeing videos where someone actually gets badly hurt or killed, whereas ludicrous gibs in a videogame can be hilarious. Why? Because it's not real. No one's actually harmed. No big deal.

Sep 26, 2014#438

AshburnerX

Should we just rename this the Video Game Controversy thread? It seems pretty general use now.

Sep 26, 2014#439

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
Should we just rename this the Video Game Controversy thread? It seems pretty general use now.

I hate renaming threads for reasons I can't quantify.

Sep 26, 2014#440

fade

I don't know that any of us meet the requirements to use our own experiences. We were all too old by the time the realistic stuff hit. We already associated video games with complete unrealism.

Sep 26, 2014#441

Celt Z

fade said:
To me, books are far less desensitizing. Any visual is of your own making. Older movies, even as recently as the 90s are usually so hammy that it's hard to take it seriously. But the newer stuff, and video games where your character uses real weapons and people react in realistic ways, those are different to me. I for one was pretty shocked by the opening scene of Skyrim. My son saw it, despite my objections, and couldn't care less. Because it was nothing compared to the multiplayer CoD he plays at his friends' houses.

I'm with you on this one. The level of realism nowadays is making the "uncanny valley" very small. On the other hand, while practical effects were often hammy, they were still "real", whereas there is a still a lot of computerized "realism" that clearly isn't there yet. But that's more about movies and TV. In video games, when you're immersed in an entire world that looks that way, it can get pretty disturbing. I know I mentioned it before, but when Mr. Z was playing one of the Black Ops, I had to leave the room. Children on fire? Nope nope nope nope nope...

I also wonder if part of our reticence is from looking at this through adult eyes. There has been scenes in movies, TV, etc. that didn't bother me as a kid or a teen, but make me wince now as an adult. Part of it was me being naive to the idea that people could (or would) really hurt each other in these ways. I watched the news and was pretty worldly kid when it came to current events, but I don't think I could wrap my brain around the idea that someone would WANT to do these things, or how easily they could happen. I think we're at a point (well, some of us) where we're more experienced with the possibilities and ramifications of violent acts, which makes us worry about it in a way kids can't comprehend yet. The trick with that is separating the ones that 1) don't fully understand/aren't influenced by violent imagery because they have no instincts/urges to hurt others, and 2)the others that don't have a problem with hurting others because they don't fully comprehend/have empathy.

Sep 26, 2014#442

ScytheRexx

fade said:
I don't know that any of us meet the requirements to use our own experiences. We were all too old by the time the realistic stuff hit. We already associated video games with complete unrealism.

How does one even associate "realism"? Before video games, we had movies, which are way more realistic then even video games now, but just because I watched "First Blood" as a kid, does not mean I suddenly turned apathetic towards conflict or loss. Video Games be damned. I knew in the end they were just movies.

The thing is, humans are pretty good about associating the "real" with the "show", we have been having violent stage plays since the days of old. Even in the cases of those that may form some strange cocoon of apathy (and I highly doubt it unless they have a mental disorder or very lousy parents), all it will take is the death of one person they care about, whether a family member, a friend, or someone close to them, and that realization that "there is no reset button" for those walls to come crashing over them. Life is not a game, a game does not represent life.

I wouldn't think so hard into it.

Sep 26, 2014#443

fade

I disagree. You don't immerse yourself in a movie as the one conducting the act. i don't think anything from the days of old is a valid comparison. I think this is new territory.

I'm not wringing hands in lament. The thing is I'm not ready to wave it off watching my own kids.

Sep 26, 2014#444

ScytheRexx

fade said:
I disagree. You don't immerse yourself in a movie as the one conducting the act. i don't think anything from the days of old is a valid comparison. I think this is new territory. I'm not wringing hands in lament. The thing is I'm not ready to wave it off watching my own kids.

Who says you really "immerse" yourself in a game either? They always call you something else. Either Gordon Freeman, or Duke Nukem, or Soup MacTavish. Yes, you tell him what you want him to do with the magic of the game controller, but it's still never technically "you". Even in an RPG, half the men I know play female characters, and I don't think most of them secretly want to have breasts or have the urge to dress in plate bikinis.

There is an understanding of the disconnect, just like I don't see myself suddenly as John Rambo, or the oddly invisible man in the location cheering for him.[DOUBLEPOST=1411784079,1411783746][/DOUBLEPOST]I want to point out that, yes, there could be a possible problem of apathy due to realism in video games. All I am saying is that the statistics are not there, and the amount of factors that would have to be involved (shitty parents, isolation, peer ostrization) that I think it's silly to make it seem like it might turn into an epidemic.
My son already grasps the difference between the cars in my racing games and the ones on the street, and he is not even two.

Sep 26, 2014#445

Hailey Knight

fade said:
I disagree. You don't immerse yourself in a movie as the one conducting the act. i don't think anything from the days of old is a valid comparison. I think this is new territory.

I'm not wringing hands in lament. The thing is I'm not ready to wave it off watching my own kids.

You need a control group; you're just observing one sample. Your approach is hardly scientific.

Sep 27, 2014#446

Bowielee

Oh well, I tried.

Sep 27, 2014#447

Hailey Knight

If I judged things by just the kids I know personally and their friends, then all kids suck at video games and mainly want to play Wii dance games. No one can disprove because this is what I see.

Fade, have you ever considered that your kids and their friends just aren't as squeamish as you? I thought nothing of the Skyrim opening beheading, or the guy who died by arrows; it wasn't particularly realistic and it's not like the voice acting is Oscar caliber. My wife, who usually gets really antsy with violent scenes, didn't even flinch when the head rolled off. It's not even an intense scene until the dragon shows up. Everyone's kind of just standing around.

Sep 27, 2014#448

ThatNickGuy

I think the difference between entertainment violence and real violence is that the entertainment sensationalises it. The way it's presented is almost always presented as "cool" or "awesome" in order to entertain the viewer. It's made to be as exciting as possible, even when it's suppose to be "realistic."

There's also a large disconnect with entertainment violence because you're in a completely safe environment, so you can relax and watch stuff go boom without worry of any consequences or injury to yourself or others. It's easy to sit back and watch a violent movie or play a violent game because that's all you're doing: sitting and watching/playing. It's meant to entertain and distract you from the real world, nothing else. But I think about when I've been in some tense or violent situations, I'm actually kind of cowardly. Hell, I was so upset from seeing a cat hit by a car just outside work once that I had to take the rest of the day off. There was nothing sensational about it.

Yet, when I play video games, I can cut through huge swaths of enemies without feeling anything. Or say I'm supposed to do something sneaky in, say, Assassin's Creed: I'll just take the direct approach, fighting as many as possible just to get through it. It's empowering, in fact. I've never felt empowered in real life situations, though I don't have many situations to go by. Never encountered anyone with a knife or a gun, for example.

Sep 27, 2014#449

Jay

Every time I see an update to this Thread I think Zoe has fucked someone new

Sep 27, 2014#450

Celt Z

I think we need to remember that Fade said:

fade said:
Well, I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about my son and his friends,

Like I said in my earlier post, different kids process of violence they see differently. That fantasy violence seems to be registering in a way with his kids and his friends that he finds worrisome, I think he's doing a good job as a parent taking note of it. There are times where you can't just assume that kids can make the disconnection between the two. I think there has been too many instances where we just write these things off and it turns out to be something bad in the end. It's better to step in and double check then just assume that all experiences will be like your own.

Sep 27, 2014#451

Hailey Knight

Celt Z said:
I think we need to remember that Fade said:

Like I said in my earlier post, different kids process of violence they see differently. That fantasy violence seems to be registering in a way with his kids and his friends that he finds worrisome, I think he's doing a good job as a parent taking note of it. There are times where you can't just assume that kids can make the disconnection between the two. I think there has been too many instances where we just write these things off and it turns out to be something bad in the end. It's better to step in and double check then just assume that all experiences will be like your own.

If that's the case, then 1. he doesn't know that it's the cause, just an assumption, 2. shouldn't be applying it as a general rule, and 3. we're not the ones he should be talking to about it. As with others in this thread, my parents talked to me about this stuff. Not at length like they probably should have--Mom: "Hey honey, you know this isn't real/how it really works?" "Yup." "Okay."--but still, there was a dialogue.

I loved the show Movie Magic. It was part of the reason I wanted to be a movie director when I was a kid and why Stan Winston was as close as I came to having a childhood hero. It's amazing what people had to do for special effects before CGI took over.

Speaking of which, CGI blood--people can tell and it really numbs the effect it would have in a horror movie. There are people who can watch blood splatter by the gallon in a movie, but still faint if they see a few drops in real life.[DOUBLEPOST=1411822363,1411822282][/DOUBLEPOST]

Jay said:
Every time I see an update to this Thread I think Zoe has fucked someone new

450 replies since mid-August ... damn, she is a machine. Good for her.

Sep 27, 2014#452

Mathias

Zero Esc said:
450 replies since mid-August ... damn, she is a machine. Good for her.

Sep 27, 2014#453

Null

Zero Esc said:
450 replies since mid-August ... damn, she is a machine. Good for her.

So does that make her a sore winner or a sore loser?

Sep 27, 2014#454

Hailey Knight

Null said:
So does that make her a sore winner or a sore loser?

I don't understand the question.

Sep 27, 2014#455

Tinwhistler

Null said:
So does that make her a sore winner or a sore loser?

Calloused.

Sep 27, 2014#456

fade

Zero Esc said:
If that's the case, then 1. he doesn't know that it's the cause, just an assumption, 2. shouldn't be applying it as a general rule, and 3. we're not the ones he should be talking to about it. As with others in this thread, my parents talked to me about this stuff. Not at length like they probably should have--Mom: "Hey honey, you know this isn't real/how it really works?" "Yup." "Okay."--but still, there was a dialogue.

Are you talking about me? I've done none of those. Of course it's an assumption, but I can trace it to specific times and places, and to outright comments from his friends with parents who permit them to play games I don't. I've also gone to great pains to point out that this is an anecdotal observation, but a very thought-inducing one. As for the third point, I already said it goes without saying that I've had this talk with my son. I just didn't think that had to be said explicitly.

To be clear again, I've not said "video games cause violence". I've said I've noticed that observing the realistic violence in newer games has definitely dulled their reaction to observations of violence in other media. That's all I said, and then I voiced some concern about what this could mean. I've also said, I don't know if there's any connection for certain, but I'm not quite willing to dismiss it outright.

Sep 27, 2014#457

Null

Of course, there's the question of whether it's "desensitization", or being able to recognize it immediately as being fake because they're familiar with it's fictionalized presentation - ie "I can tell this is fake because it's just like in the games I play, and I know they're not real" as opposed to, "Eh, that guy just got shot 15 times? Big deal, I've seen worse." Then there's the issue of young boys tending to be fascinated with the grotesque...

As long as he doesn't start *acting* more violent and aggressive, it's probably fine. But I'd imagine as a parent you always wonder if you're doing the right thing no matter what you do.

Sep 27, 2014#458

Hailey Knight

I know you have disclaimers, but you seem really hung up on this as if it hadn't been brought up. And the dialogue does need to be said, it's not obvious--lots of parents don't bother, even when they're worried. Note again to my individual personal anecdotal example, my mother barely saying a few words to me. Hell, I never got the sex talk. Some people's parents don't want to make themselves uncomfortable by discussing uncomfortable subjects. I worry more about parents who just let their kids do whatever than those who are actively monitoring this stuff.

But on another note, you did do a short film where your son murders you and then you come back as a ghost and get revenge. It was funny. I think you are wringing your hands a little more than you need to if you have confidence in your kid to be doing that without issue.

Especially over that Skyrim opening, man. In God of War III, Kratos yanks off a god's head and it's drawn out, with him screaming and you can see the skin stretch, the tendons snap, and then every time you use that head as an item, the god screams again. That's some sick shit. But the Skyrim opening? You barely see a head roll. In fact, you see more from what you can do on your own later, with the sync kills that show blood splatter across the area and the head sever in slow-motion. Sometimes you'll just find them in places.

[DOUBLEPOST=1411831105,1411830943][/DOUBLEPOST]

Null said:
But I'd imagine as a parent you always wonder if you're doing the right thing no matter what you do.

That's true. I'm often having to reaffirm for my aunts that they're doing a good job, because they have a hard time seeing it from the inside.

Sep 27, 2014#459

Hailey Knight

Oh, also, Fade doesn't like things, etc.

Sep 27, 2014#460

fade

The skyrim thing was just an example. This must be one of those lack of tone things because you guys are putting a metric ton more weight on things than I'm actually expressing. In any case this is getting into one of those spiral things where we aren't making any progress so I think I will stop.

Sep 27, 2014#461

Hailey Knight

fade said:
The skyrim thing was just an example. This must be one of those lack of tone things because you guys are putting a metric ton more weight on things than I'm actually expressing. In any case this is getting into one of those spiral things where we aren't making any progress so I think I will stop.

I'm ribbing you more than anything; it just jumped out at me as a weirdly low-key example. My post probably needed some lighthearted faces to get this across.

Oct 1, 2014#462

GasBandit

There's been a lot of turmoil in the backer community for Mighty No. 9 again lately, centered around community manager "Dina," who some avid readers might remember being mentioned earlier in this thread.

http://techraptor.net/2014/10/01/might-no-9-lesson-manage-community/

FTA:
Mighty No. 9 – A lesson in how not to manage a community

The community surrounding Mighty No. 9, a game Kickstarted for promising to be a spiritual successor to Mega Man, has been in uproar recently – and not for the first time. And for some very similar reasons. Well, similar in the sense that the issues surrounding the first set of issues, and the issues now, all seem to stem from one person: the Mighty No. 9 community manager known as Dina. But, do not mistake that Comcept, the developers of the game, are equally at fault here for allowing what will be discussed here to continue to happen.

A recap of what happened last year:
In November, the Mighty No. 9 forums were started up and Dina as the community manager was eventually introduced. This was how she introduced herself. That started a curiosity about who she was and what she was doing there, was she qualified?

Regardless of what they found out about her personal politics, which some will focus on, what the community found out was troubling. Mighty No. 9 has been, since the beginning, advertised as the next game to revive the Mega Man franchise just under a different name. Well, Dina apparently has no experience with Mega Man, which would obviously rub that community in the wrong way, but most troubling is that she freely admitted that she only backed the project because her boyfriend (or best friend? still unclear here, regardless it is still a conflict of interest) is supposedly working on the project.

Now it gets a little confusing. That introduction she gave doesn’t really explain her role but it does seem she would be playing the community manager. However, some people were unsure about her role due to these tweets (more info that is just speculation, but helps explain the confusion). Eventually, Mark from 8-4, the localization developers for Mighty No. 9, responded (second email in image) saying that Dina was definitely not involved in the design process of the game.

That seemed to be a dead end and something that community members wouldn’t have to worry about anymore. However, the problems with Dina as the community manager don’t end there. The red underlined portions of Mark’s email are where many community members had, and continue to have issues.

Mark describes the role of the community manager was to be the “conduit between the community and the [development] team.” And that she is to be impartial. Obviously, she is not only going to pass on information as it is her job to also weed out spamming, trolling ,etc. But, Dina, as well as other moderators, don’t seem to be impartial when they start locking and deleting threads as well as banning backers from the forums for many reasons.

This was the original set of forum rules. People were banned, forums locked/deleted for: essentially saying goodbye to the community, voicing disagreement, and humor?

But the greivances against Dina don’t end there, the community is angry over not having their voice heard, not being directly spoken to by the mods but having their posts edited, and for how unprofessional they seem to act in some cases (Dina is Petitemistress).

The most frustrating thing is that when Mark said that Dina was essentially the “conduit between the community and the [development] team,” he was both right and wrong. It appears that nearly every bit of communication goes through Dina directly or indirectly. Various email addresses exist, but it appears that while Dina may not be in charge of them, she most assuredly has access to them. That’s an issue because who knows how aware Comcept truly is of what is going on in the community as their eyes and ears is in the position to manipulate, or leave out, what is said to them.

To top it all off, the worry that many community members had was not acknowledged by Comcept who refused to refund any backers – regardless of the legitimacy of their complaints about the community.
That more or less sums up what happened before (and is more or less still ongoing). Recently, the actions of the moderators of the Mighty No. 9 community, Dina first and foremost, have leaked over to the GamerGate issue. Dina disagrees with the GamerGate movement and seems to be silencing any discussion of it on the forums as well as blocking backers from the Mighty No. 9 official Twitter.

One of the reasons she decided to remove a discussion of GamerGate is because it lacked sources. However, a community member did source their disagreements in a past thread long ago and the moderators still removed it. Dina claimed it to be harassment when the community member was criticizing her summation that a post should be allowed to stay because it was “middle of the road.” The evidence was to show just how the submitter was not middle of the road. Hypocritical to say the least, and seemingly censoring an opinion she disagrees with/bolstering one she does agree with at worst.

The latest controversy is over backers, some that have pledged hundreds of dollars, being blocked from the official Mighty No. 9 Twitter account. Dina claims that this is not happening. One also cannot help to notice how tactlessly she decided to respond to the issue. That kind of language and approach is common throughout her Twitter, and to a lesser degree on the Mighty No. 9 forums. That is worthy of note as this is just further evidence of the lack of professionalism that many community members have worried about for a long time.

It is also worth noting that many people blocked from the official Mighty No. 9 Twitter account are blocked from Dina’s as well.

The fact remains though: some Mighty No. 9 backers are being blocked, but why? So far I am still waiting for a reply from Comcept on the matter.

For many community members, silencing GamerGate discussion has been the final straw and they have started to issue chargebacks on their bank accounts, which essentially means that Comcept, if the chargeback is deemed correct, has no option in paying the person back. Some reports have come out that backers have received their money back through this method.

This is not condoning of that action but it brings up a question: why has Comcept continued to keep Dina as the Mighty No. 9 community manager if she is now undeniably making them lose money? A question that I hope to receive an answer to from Comcept some day.

A thing for all to consider: most of the information here was “leaked” from the Mighty No. 9 forums as the official forums are only accessible by backers, which I do not happen to be. Any information here was leaked, or given to TechRaptor, from users. That means that nobody here, unless you happen to be a backer, is seeing the full picture.

The saddest thing about all of this is that those actually developing Mighty No. 9 probably just want people to enjoy the game they are in the process of creating. This is one of those weird incidents where the controversy does not lie with the content of the game, or the people attached to its creation, but to simply a community manager.

Oct 1, 2014#463

Jay

Ah Dina...

Oct 1, 2014#464

SpecialKO

I'm sympathetic to her situation, but from a non-backer's perspective (so I don't have access to the forums in question, so this is all conjecture), it certainly sounds like this is not a community where she can successfully act as a Community Manager. It's critically important for something like this for backers to feel like they have a reliable line of communication to the studio, and if she can't create/convey that atmosphere....

Oct 1, 2014#465

Covar

SpecialKO said:
I'm sympathetic to her situation, but from a non-backer's perspective (so I don't have access to the forums in question, so this is all conjecture), it certainly sounds like this is not a community where she can successfully act as a Community Manager. It's critically important for something like this for backers to feel like they have a reliable line of communication to the studio, and if she can't create/convey that atmosphere....

From what Gas posted I don't think she can successfully act as a Community Manager period.

Oct 1, 2014#466

SpecialKO

Covar said:
From what Gas posted I don't think she can successfully act as a Community Manager period.

Probably not, but I was being charitable. I know nothing about her work history or other qualifications she might have.[DOUBLEPOST=1412178648,1412178558][/DOUBLEPOST]These guys would not be the first (and won't be the last) to treat the Community Manager position as a throwaway joke position (if that's what happened). Riot, Blizzard, and Valve are all great examples of companies that took that position seriously, and surprise, surprise, they're known for having pretty strong ccompany-to-community relationships.

Oct 1, 2014#467

Covar

It sounds like she took a job she had no qualifications for and found her self out of her depth and in over her head. If she didn't still have the job and it seemed like she was dealing with it better I'd be more inclined to sympathize, instead I find myself thinking that she should step down or be fired.

Oct 1, 2014#468

Ravenpoe

This just looks like they hired someone that couldn't handle being a community manager, and should simply be fired/reassigned.

Oct 1, 2014#469

GasBandit

There is something to be said for hiring a media wonk. Mythic Entertainment in particular demonstrated their savvy when they hired two proto-social-media darlings to their staff for DAOC -

Sanya "Tweety" Thomas (now Weathers by marriage), the infamous EQ volunteer guide who frequently ranted about MMOs and those who play them, was hired to be their community manager, and did a very good job of it.

They also hired Scott "Lum the Mad" Jennings, website creator famous for his diatribes on the idiocy displayed by those at the helm of UO/EQ/etc, as a DB admin. He became the driving force behind the creation and expansion of the "Camelot Herald" website, an impressive compilation of statistics and reference data on the characters, guilds, patch notes and war status of the various servers and players for DAOC that quickly became the go-to source for all things DAOC while the "main" DAOC website languished forgotten by everyone.

But clearly Dina doesn't have the familiarity with what is supposed to be her wheelhouse that she would need for this position, and can't separate her politics from her profession - perhaps because, as a social media SJW, her politics basically WAS her profession. It begs the question again as to how exactly she got the job, and why - when she had no familiarity or affection for the subject matter other than her boyfriend being employed there.

Oct 1, 2014#470

Reverent-one

Covar said:
From what Gas posted I don't think she can successfully act as a Community Manager period.

Even as a non-backer who can't get on the forums, that article has lot of holes in it just from looking at their own evidence.

One of the reasons she decided to remove a discussion of GamerGate is because it lacked sources. However, a community member did source their disagreements in a past thread long ago and the moderators still removed it. Dina claimed it to be harassment when the community member was criticizing her summation that a post should be allowed to stay because it was “middle of the road.” The evidence was to show just how the submitter was not middle of the road. Hypocritical to say the least, and seemingly censoring an opinion she disagrees with/bolstering one she does agree with at worst.

This for example. Just looking at the section of posts it's pretty clear that people from the forums are going to the twitter account that the community member posted tweets from and are harrassing the guy (otherwise there's no reason for the member to tell everyone "come on guys...There's no need to actually go to his account and bother him"), which is what Dina is referring to as the harrasment, not the community member disagreeing with her post.

The latest controversy is over backers, some that have pledged hundreds of dollars, being blocked from the official Mighty No. 9 Twitter account. Dina claims that this is not happening. One also cannot help to notice how tactlessly she decided to respond to the issue. That kind of language and approach is common throughout her Twitter, and to a lesser degree on the Mighty No. 9 forums. That is worthy of note as this is just further evidence of the lack of professionalism that many community members have worried about for a long time.

Again, just going to the tweet of Dina that the article linked, you can see she's not denying that people are being blocked, just the idea that people are being blocked just for supporting gamersgate. When asked why that user was blocked, she freely admits he was and said it was because he was posting screenshots of the private forums, something that's against the stated rules. Which, if you go to his twitter account from the first link in this paragraph and look back, he certainly was.

So whatever problems Dina might have as a community manager, this article is pretty clearly twisting things around, whether intentionally or not I don't know, to make the facts match their narrative.

Oct 1, 2014#471

AshburnerX

I'm a backer and DO have access to the forums. Dina's just kinda bad at her job and should have been replaced long ago, but I get the feeling that the person would be able to make that decision is ether...

- Too busy actually helping develop the game to deal with it
or
- Someone who isn't going to do it (boyfriend/friend/etc)

Yes, this has been a thing since launch but I was fine letting it drop once they made it clear she wasn't going to be involved in the design process and what I've seen since tells me that this was ether true or her involvement hasn't radically changed anything. Honestly though, I don't go to the forums very often because I get updates on anything I care about via email because the company is pretty good about sending out updates every week. As such, I haven't been there since GamerGate started and can't comment on anything that's happened there since.

That said... she's a community manager. That's like one step above being a tester. Who the fuck cares what a community manager thinks?

Oct 1, 2014#472

Ravenpoe

AshburnerX said:
Who the fuck cares what a community manager thinks?

As an outsider, I'm going to guess people interested in being a part of the community?

Oct 1, 2014#473

AshburnerX

Ravenpoe said:
As an outsider, I'm going to guess people interested in being a part of the community?

To which my response is: You don't have to talk about the game where the community manager has reach. Start your own forum. If your views have merit, people will come.

Oct 1, 2014#474

fade

That idea never worked so well for Gnu software.

Oct 1, 2014#475

PatrThom

Celt Z said:
Along the lines of what Poe and Fade are talking about, I wonder if the problem lies in context.

fade said:
I for one was pretty shocked by the opening scene of Skyrim. My son saw it, despite my objections, and couldn't care less. Because it was nothing compared to the multiplayer CoD he plays at his friends' houses.

Context is everything. Ask @Jay how having a daughter changed his outlook on video game cutscenes, for instance.
That Dwyer video is another example. It may be a poor-quality B&W video, but my brain has no trouble classifying it as f(event)="real" even though I have seen much more detailed full-color photorealistic game models set on fire during a cutscene or a trailer. I mean, I get the effect, my brain processes it as disturbing, but it's like it has been flagged as only being "virtually" disturbing, which means that I will only go so far as to "virtually" throw up, or only "virtually" feel the pain of the other protagonists. It's like role-play.

--Patrick

Oct 1, 2014#476

GasBandit

Gamasutra published opinion pieces excoriating Gamergate, Intel pulls advertising off Gamasutra.

Oct 1, 2014#477

Frank

The next episode of South Park is apparently about Gamergate. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say shits gonna get funny.

Oct 1, 2014#478

GasBandit

Frank said:
The next episode of South Park is apparently about Gamergate. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say shits gonna get funny.

It usually is. Damn, I need to get back on the stick and get caught up on my South Park episodes! I hadn't even realized they'd started up again.

Despite the NFL clips I saw earlier in the week.

Oct 1, 2014#479

AshburnerX

So I went ahead and logged into the Mighty No.9 forums... for a website that has over 67k members, very few of them are actually active and for a website with so many members, it sure doesn't have the kind of post numbers you'd expect, especially considering the site is a year in. So I did a bit more digging... apparently it IS true that Dina is banning people from the forums for things they say outside of the forums, including on Kickstarter (where she's MARDINAFUNE and is using Inafune's own fucking account to do it). Most of the community interaction is happening on other sites at this point, outside of her grips. The only stuff people come to the official forums for anymore are the "Design A..." contests.

So a couple of things are happening:
- Dina's boyfriend works at 8-4, which is the company running the web presence, managed the Kickstarter, and are doing the English localization of the game. He's apparently high up too.
- Dina herself has connections to Playism, who work with a lot of Japanese game devs (including the team behind La Mulana 2, which was directly advertised during the KS), and WayForward (who ran a simultaneous KS for Shantae: Half-Genie Hero that involved some heavy cross promotion between Mighty No. 9 AND La Mulana 2).

So... yeah. This is definitely a case of a community manager who doesn't know how to do her job and is instead just doing whatever she wants. Unfortunately, she's likely untouchable because Inafune likely can't afford to piss off 8-4 this close to release... or he's just so busy that he doesn't care/know.

Frank said:
The next episode of South Park is apparently about Gamergate. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say shits gonna get funny.

It's not tonight's. Tonight is "Gluten Free Ebola". Must be next week's.

Oct 1, 2014#480

Frank

Inafune, like most Japanese devs, probably doesn't have clue one what's going on in their English community.

Oct 1, 2014#481

GasBandit

Frank said:
Inafune, like most Japanese devs, probably doesn't have clue one what's going on in their English community.

This is my opinion as well. As far as most Japanese devs seem to know or care, the US market just doesn't exist.

Oct 1, 2014#482

Null

GasBandit said:
This is my opinion as well. As far as most Japanese devs seem to know or care, the US market just doesn't exist.

Except for the ones that actively resent the US Market.

Oct 1, 2014#483

AshburnerX

Frank said:
Inafune, like most Japanese devs, probably doesn't have clue one what's going on in their English community.

That would be incorrect in this case. Mighty No.9 was announced and launched during a panel at PAX, where everyone in attendance was given their very own Mighty No. (all backers get one) and a beta invite. The vast majority of the backers on KS are from the West because KS wasn't a thing in Japan yet (they later added a paypal account to donate to for the Japanese folks who didn't get it).

Why did Kenji Inafune choose to start his work in the West? It's because he's been quite vocal about the stagnation of Japanese development and he's been working closely with Western developers since the initial development of Dead Rising 2 (Blue Castle did most of the work). He's got more than a few working at comcept. He was also behind the push for Capcom to release more titles outside of Japan. Hell, he QUIT CAPCOM so he could work with more Western devs.

So... no, Inafune is quite aware of the Western market. I honestly believe this is probably a situation where he just can't afford to get rid of Dina without causing a shitstorm with 8-4.

EDIT: 8-4 is also kind of shit at what they do. For example, these are from the recently released game Gunvolt, which they also translated. This makes me think Inafune might be locked into a shit contract.

Oct 1, 2014#484

Null

He's definitely right about the Japanese market stagnating. Just look at Squeenix.

Oct 1, 2014#485

GasBandit

Oh god with the Yevo pronouns.

Oct 1, 2014#486

Null

GasBandit said:
Oh god with the Yevo pronouns.

Right? Whenever people use "alternative" pronouns, I always think they've made a typo or something until I go through it a few times.

Oct 1, 2014#487

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
Oh god with the Yevo pronouns.

Wait, is that what it is? I literally thought it was a translation error.

Oct 1, 2014#488

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
Wait, is that what it is? I literally thought it was a translation error.

Nope, just tumblr ethics trying to make a game suck.

Oct 1, 2014#489

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
That would be incorrect in this case. Mighty No.9 was announced and launched during a panel at PAX, where everyone in attendance was given their very own Mighty No. (all backers get one) and a beta invite. The vast majority of the backers on KS are from the West because KS wasn't a thing in Japan yet (they later added a paypal account to donate to for the Japanese folks who didn't get it).

Why did Kenji Inafune choose to start his work in the West? It's because he's been quite vocal about the stagnation of Japanese development and he's been working closely with Western developers since the initial development of Dead Rising 2 (Blue Castle did most of the work). He's got more than a few working at comcept. He was also behind the push for Capcom to release more titles outside of Japan. Hell, he QUIT CAPCOM so he could work with more Western devs.

So... no, Inafune is quite aware of the Western market. I honestly believe this is probably a situation where he just can't afford to get rid of Dina without causing a shitstorm with 8-4.

EDIT: 8-4 is also kind of shit at what they do. For example, these are from the recently released game Gunvolt, which they also translated. This makes me think Inafune might be locked into a shit contract.

Those aren't typos; they're gender-neutral pronouns. EDIT: Ninja'd.

Really, the translation isn't one of Gunvolt's bigger problems. The game gets kind of boring.[DOUBLEPOST=1412211962,1412211730][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
Nope, just tumblr ethics trying to make a game suck.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Certain countries have those as official pronouns, and I don't know what you'd call someone both genders--"it" doesn't really work. It may not even be an issue outside of English; I know Mandarin doesn't use gendered pronouns, which is really annoying in immigration cases, so perhaps Japanese is the same. No idea; I know almost nothing about the language.

Oct 1, 2014#490

Terrik

Zero Esc said:
Those aren't typos; they're gender-neutral pronouns. EDIT: Ninja'd.

Really, the translation isn't one of Gunvolt's bigger problems. The game gets kind of boring.[DOUBLEPOST=1412211962,1412211730][/DOUBLEPOST]

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Certain countries have those as official pronouns, and I don't know what you'd call someone both genders--"it" doesn't really work. It may not even be an issue outside of English; I know Mandarin doesn't use gendered pronouns, which is really annoying in immigration cases, so perhaps Japanese is the same. No idea; I know almost nothing about the language.

Chinese doesn't? Well it does...written anyhow: 他-He

她(complete with female radical on the left)-She

它-It

The pronunciation on the other hand is all the same: "Ta"

Oct 1, 2014#491

bhamv3

Terrik said:
Chinese doesn't? Well it does...written anyhow: 他-He

她(complete with female radical on the left)-She

它-It

The pronunciation on the other hand is all the same: "Ta"

Since he said Mandarin, I assumed he meant verbal.

Oct 1, 2014#492

Hailey Knight

Terrik said:
Chinese doesn't? Well it does...written anyhow: 他-He

她(complete with female radical on the left)-She

它-It

The pronunciation on the other hand is all the same: "Ta"

Maybe it was Fuzhou then. It gets hard to keep track when they keep switching back and forth in the middle of the hearing. The interpreters keep having to say "he or she", and sometimes when they just assume, it ends up being wrong.[DOUBLEPOST=1412219804,1412219770][/DOUBLEPOST]

bhamv3 said:
Since he said Mandarin, I assumed he meant verbal.

I really don't know outside of my cases; so I only get what's being translated into English aka what the interpreters say.

Oct 1, 2014#493

bhamv3

If it's an interpretation, then yes, there would be no way to distinguish between male or female third person pronouns in Mandarin, since they're pronounced the same way: ta.

Terrik's already shown they're written differently for "he", "she", and "it". As an interesting aside, there's also the pronoun for gods and other divine beings (祂), and animals (牠), both also pronounced ta.

Oct 1, 2014#494

Hailey Knight

bhamv3 said:
If it's an interpretation, then yes, there would be no way to distinguish between male or female third person pronouns in Mandarin, since they're pronounced the same way: ta.

Terrik's already shown they're written differently for "he", "she", and "it". As an interesting aside, there's also the pronoun for gods and other divine beings (祂), and animals (牠), both also pronounced ta.

And yet they never ask if the speaker is referring to gods or animals in court. Lazy American justice system.

Oct 1, 2014#495

bhamv3

Zero Esc said:
And yet they never ask if the speaker is referring to gods or animals in court. Lazy American justice system.

I'd imagine they will soon, because as we all know, gay marriage will lead to people marrying their dogs and cats and horses and Xboxes.

Oct 1, 2014#496

GasBandit

Zero Esc said:
Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Certain countries have those as official pronouns, and I don't know what you'd call someone both genders--"it" doesn't really work. It may not even be an issue outside of English; I know Mandarin doesn't use gendered pronouns, which is really annoying in immigration cases, so perhaps Japanese is the same. No idea; I know almost nothing about the language.

I'd be more inclined to believe that was the case if the line immediately previous to it didn't think it was important to point out that the target was bigender.

Oct 1, 2014#497

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
I'd be more inclined to believe that was the case if the line immediately previous to it didn't think it was important to point out that the target was bigender.

Oh, that says bi-gender! I was reading it as big-ender and assuming that was some term used in the game.

Oct 1, 2014#498

Null

Ravenpoe said:
Oh, that says bi-gender! I was reading it as big-ender and assuming that was some term used in the game.

Yeah I did the first time too. I was like, "What the fuck is a Big Ender?"

Oct 2, 2014#499

PatrThom

Terrik said:
The pronunciation on the other hand is all the same: "Ta"

bhamv3 said:
there would be no way to distinguish between male or female third person pronouns in Mandarin, since they're pronounced the same way: ta.

This isn't one of those tonal things, is it? Where "ta" can mean 15 different things depending on inflection?

--Patrick

Oct 2, 2014#500

bhamv3

PatrThom said:
This isn't one of those tonal things, is it? Where "ta" can mean 15 different things depending on inflection?

--Patrick

Nope, all the same tone.

Forums

Export thread

The Zoe Quinn sex-for-reviews scandal

Attachments