Didn't Williams write like every Kings Quest game?
I just looked this up. She wrote all of Kings Quest, Laura Bow, Shivers, Phantasmagoria, and has a Facebook game coming out called Odd Manor. How more people don't know about her is kind of a crime.
The Zoe Quinn sex-for-reviews scandal
- Thread starter GasBandit
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I just looked this up. She wrote all of Kings Quest, Laura Bow, Shivers, Phantasmagoria, and has a Facebook game coming out called Odd Manor. How more people don't know about her is kind of a crime.
You're just a big fan of putting words in people's mouth today, aren't you. Reread my statement. I said that what you personally don't get is that we aren't trying to make these women out to be heroes. I never came close to comparing anyone in this thread to the people who are sending death threats and such.[DOUBLEPOST=1410720501,1410720366][/DOUBLEPOST]I also forget that every person on the internet is a paragon of virtue who has never EVER advanced their career or furthered their own goals in ethically questionable ways.
The amount of cognitive dissonance correction in this thread is off the charts.
Bowie, I respect you, but I think you are starting to let your emotions cloud your reasoning. First of all, no one here is saying death threats and violence are the answer to anything. All we are saying is the few idiots that are doing that shouldn't give unethical promotion a free pass.
Second, I am a bit dumbfounded you are now arguing cognitive dissonance in a paragraph like that. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please enlighten me what you meant by the first sentence? Are you telling me to "get over it" because people have and always will further their own goals in ethically questionable ways? Isn't part of Anita's biggest arguments that we SHOULDN'T just give in and accept the status quo when it comes to female representation in gaming? That we shouldn't just sweep it under the rug as "the usual"?
So what should we do? Accept the status quo because "it happens" or actually voice our opinions on possible unethical practices?
I won't say there is not some cognitive dissonance on both sides, but this issue is complex, and unless one of us is psychic none of us will know the truth, only what we hear through reports and our own bias. I know I hold some bias, I openly admit it, but it does not mean I shouldn't be allowed to discuss it in some manner, and neither should others.
I should stress that I used to agree with Anita. I still feel female representation and the "good ole boys" club was (and still is) horrible. I want more female developers. I want more games with strong female protagonists. The problem is the internet likes to look at itself as black and white. You are either FOR Anita's message or you are the enemy, and vise versa to those that hate Anita, you agree with her, you are a fem-nazi. I lost faith in Anita when her videos felt like they were pandering to her audience by digging up anything that could even have a hint of misogyny. It makes one side rage for abolishment of all forms of sexuality in gaming and the other throw out death threats because "they taking away our boobies". Nothing gets done.
I want female voices that explain, but don't pander. I want female developers that make a name for themselves without cheating the system with their boobs (either through sex or "victimhood"). It's not black and white and shouldn't be treated as such. Neither side should hold the broom.
Hey! I am a person on the internet who has never EVER advanced my career in ethically questionable ways!
In fact, I have never advanced my career. So there!
This commenter pretty much sums up my reaction opinion on the matter.
"My only problem with "objectification" (bad use of the word considering what I'll be using as an example) is when it breaks immersion. When there is no particular reason for a character to be dressed like an idiot (no matter the gender or body type of said character) it completely destroys my immersion.
It's most glaring when men are dressed in battle armor while women are dressed in metal bikinis. It's just weird. I'm not yelling sexism, I just want this stuff to follow some sort of basic logic. Not saying sex is bad, not saying nudity is bad, I'm saying that being overly impractical just to show off abs or butt is silly and I wont be able to take a game seriously if it does that.
I know how most people reading this site feel on "feminist"-issues and I want to definitely make sure to say that I think the "games are sexist"-circlejerk goes overboard all the time and I agree that games do not cause sexism.
All I'm saying is that dressing people like people in a game makes it easier for me to see them as people. If they dress differently than people would in real life, explain the culture of the universe and tell me what makes them do so."[DOUBLEPOST=1410812786,1410812657][/DOUBLEPOST]
Also that article is a total opinion piece not based off of any science or research. I do know that research in this area is being done, but it's all in the early stages. The effects of violence in video games can not be transitively linked to sexual portrayals.
Addendum: I also want to make one thing perfectly clear, I'm in no way saying that Sarkesian is some sort of paragon of virtue and that she's not as biased as anyone else involved in the discussion, but I'm glad she's there to promote the discussion. As with anyone, if you try to look at them with an objective eye, has some good points and some bad points and yes, she has made some errors. What I find irksome is the witch huntery that's involved.
His central tenet is not as well established as he asserts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_controversies#Scientific_debate
That said, effects are probably short-lived and do not necessarily generalize to sexual attitudes (though it wouldn't be surprising if they did).
GasBandit
Staff member
One minor but potentially important correction - *her. The author is Lucy Walcott.
Isn't assuming that her gender has anything to do with the validity of her opinions sexist?
GasBandit
Staff member
Just trying to head off at the pass any comments about a male author's point of view on sexual objectification.Isn't assuming that her gender has anything to do with the validity of her opinions sexist?
My bad. I didn't examine the author that closely.
fade
Staff member
Awareness works. As an anecdote, I can tell you I never thought twice about some of the stupid sexist stuff in video games and comics. Now it's obvious, and even repulsive. Like the infamous simultaneous boobs-butt pose. I notice it everywhere now, and I don't find it attractive anymore at all. I won't lie: I did find it attractive, but now it just looks like so much meat on display.
A big example of that is the current attitudes towards smoking.
And the actual link because someone is too lazy to post it:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-as-internets-most-hated-person/
fade
Staff member
The whole thing is really disheartening. I expected more out of human beings, I guess. This is just like the shit with Deepika Padukone in India, where people went nuts because it turns out, and keep this to yourself, women have boobs.
http://www.firstpost.com/bollywood/...ika-padukone-takes-leading-daily-1712031.html
The comments.... ugh.
http://www.firstpost.com/bollywood/...ika-padukone-takes-leading-daily-1712031.html
The comments.... ugh.
GasBandit
Staff member
Wonder what her cut of the ad revenue is.
I'm pretty sure Cracked writers get paid upfront and it's likely not that much.
GasBandit
Staff member
It wouldn't shock me to learn they paid her entirely in manufactured legitimacy.
I played a lot of Williams' games on the old apple2+ back in the day. But her heydey was 30 years ago and the internet's got a short memory sometimes. I never gave a second thought to the fact that the games had a female designer listed on the box (though in those days, it was more likely to be a ziploc bag with a cardstock graphic and a disk inside). But I'm pretty sure that in the late 80's the computer game playing demographic was a lot different than it is today.
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I haven't even read it, I don't really care about that whole situation anymore.
Nm already posted.
This is why it's so hard to discuss it. Because of the fucktards threatening her and hacking her friends, any actual, valid criticism or issues with unethical promotion can just be drowned out. Soon you are lumped with those asshats because you are not willing to take everything she says at face value after all the other lies.
Oddly that post on Cracked made me more annoyed with her, not because I think she should live through that, she shouldn't, no matter how unethical she may be. It's that damn ending where she is like "Haha look at me I got my name in with Tim Shaefer and Will Weaton, BOOM" that just reminds me how she takes advantage of her victimhood to promote her own career just like her game.
Oddly that post on Cracked made me more annoyed with her, not because I think she should live through that, she shouldn't, no matter how unethical she may be. It's that damn ending where she is like "Haha look at me I got my name in with Tim Shaefer and Will Weaton, BOOM" that just reminds me how she takes advantage of her victimhood to promote her own career just like her game.
GasBandit
Staff member
And conversely, by milking her victimhood, engaging in said unethical practices, and using protective measures to squelch valid criticism AND competition, she makes it very hard to defend the valid points that she and others like her have made. There ARE problems in the industry, but bringing them up now makes you automatically perceived as supporting someone whose own conduct is suspect, whether you do or not.
saw this on reddit today from the "Factual Feminist"