[News] The USA Police State will never satisfy its lust for beating, gassing, and imprisoning minorities

Attacking individual police officers for evidence based training, policy, and procedure is not going to have any useful outcome. If you really want the police to change their behavior then work through your legislature. Fund studies showing that the policies and procedures should be changed because those changes will better protection society. Get to know your local police force and ask them about their encounters and experiences so you can better understand the situations they face daily.
I am not attacking anyone. I am asking a simple question. He does not have to answer the question, but it's trying to get perspective on what he would do in the situation. I am not a police officer, so all I can do is look at things from the outside, and right now, if it came down to a police officer being able to save me over the cost of his fellow officers life, it seems more likely he would choose his fellow officer then me. I know not all of them seem this way, but the greater culture seems to reinforce it.
I just very much doubt that this was the case, and by allowing that individual to continue to make threats with such a weapon was recklessly dangerous not only to the officer, but to anyone else nearby, including newly arriving officers, bystanders, and even those further away that could be harmed by a missed or stray shot. The officer put others in danger.
He attempted to contain a tense situation with a man that was asking for him to shoot him, obviously depressed and wanting to die. The original call from the girlfriend was because he was threatening suicide. The gun even turned out to be empty. Yes, the officer has no idea of that fact, but that was what it was and he made the call to try and help the man rather then end his life, a choice that he should be rewarded for, not condemned. You also may notice that at no point was it said that he was fired for putting others in danger, only his "fellow officers", there was no mention of threat to bystanders or others. I can bet you if he did take the shot, missed, and hit some woman and apartment over, he probably would still have a job, because that's just collateral damage.

You know we have this fun little term in the courts called "innocent until proven guilty". When someone like Tamir Rice is playing with a toy gun and the officers immediately roll up and the first instinct is to shoot him dead when anything even remotely shaped like a gun appears in eye frame, it seems to be the other way around. So what are you saying? Don't do anything that can even remotely look like a threat for any instance, at any time, for any reason, for any purpose, or you die? That isn't a valid answer to the problem, that is ignoring the problem because it's just how the world works to you.

Again the issue isn't even the shooting. No one expects cops to make the best choices under all circumstances, all we ask is that they be held accountable for mistakes. If I lean over to change my music and end up running over 5 kids jaywalking to school, I would be arrested and put in prison. Yes, my choice, in the end, was a deadly mistake, but I don't latch onto the fact they were jaywalking to justify my horrible mistake. Many times, we blame the victim in police shooting cases as "resisting" or "looking dangerous" and then write it off as a justified situation for lethal force. I don't like that.

Hell, I am a white male, I have the least to fear from the police, I could ignore it all and just live my life, and probably never have a problem, but that isn't going to fix anything for those that are suffering.
 
I understand that you place a great deal more value on the reward side of the risk/reward scale, and that you're willing to put the lives of others on the line if it'll save the one in a thousand armed person who will not actually use their weapon.

I disagree with your choice, and believe that in 99% or more of interactions with individuals carrying weapons, the current policy and procedures, based on a great deal of evidence and experience, are appropriate.

If you follow policy and procedure, and you come home alive, and the policy and procedure fail a fraction of the time, then I don't believe the correct response is to blame the officer.

When they do not follow policy and procedure then they should be held accountable.

We should therefore focus our efforts on

1. Making sure policy and procedure are as good as possible, given studies, evidence, etc
2. Making sure police follow them and punishing them when they do not

Given that, how does your complaint fit into this? Is it an issue with 1, 2, or both? Or are you suggesting that we allow officers a greater degree of autonomy to work outside the limits of their commission?
 
When they do not follow policy and procedure then they should be held accountable.
If killing someone, possible innocent, while following procedure, is legal and without consequence, yet attempting to save someone, that goes against procedure, leads to dismissal, then the procedure, needs to change. That is all I am going to say.
 
TIL stienman believes in "Shoot first and ask questions later."
Within the very narrow range of "Can that person kill me before I finish the first word of my question?" then yes, I wholeheartedly endorse killing someone who is an immediate and urgent threat to my life before they are able to kill me.

If a person is holding a gun with their hand wrapped around the grip then they are an immediate and urgent threat to me.

That being said, I've never been in that situation, and I'm not equipped or trained to act in any way other than a regular victim, so it's a moot point. The last time I found myself in that situation I simply obeyed my attacker's orders and then did my best to assure they were caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Had I a weapon, it would have been well within my rights to kill them, however I'm convinced I would be haunted by this for the rest of my life and it would not have been worth it. Even though I have a family to provide for and protect, I have not changed my skills. So while I believe that people should be able to defend themselves from urgent and immediate threats with deadly force, I don't believe I would actually do so myself.

It is, nonetheless, their right, and I find it hard to understand why the position of self protection is so vilified.
 
Within the very narrow range of "Can that person kill me before I finish the first word of my question?" then yes, I wholeheartedly endorse killing someone who is an immediate and urgent threat to my life before they are able to kill me.
So now you're fine with killing cops?
 
It is, nonetheless, their right, and I find it hard to understand why the position of self protection is so vilified.
No one is saying an officer can't protect himself within a reasonable doubt. It's like "If you are for police restraint, you are for cop killing." It's a stupid argument, one that is only peppered by your ludicrous backhanded comments versus me.

What we are arguing is that the police often get off in situations where evidence showed they were in the wrong or at least misguided at best. Just like that cop above was fired, even after evidence showed his intuition was correct.
 
So now you're fine with killing cops?
I figured I'd get that thrown at me... but the answer is no.[DOUBLEPOST=1507055018,1507054653][/DOUBLEPOST]
What we are arguing is...
TIL stienman believes in "Shoot first and ask questions later."
That's what I was replying to.

I understand what you're arguing, and I disagree with your opinions on how the police should operate, for the reasons I've already stated.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Hey man, you don't like the laws, do something to change them. Otherwise you're just shouting at a television..
And if the laws aren't being followed by those in power?

Your comment might as well be "If you don't like the rules, then do something to change them" at a basketball game where the ref is only calling fouls on one team. The problem isn't the rules/law, it's how they're enforced.
 
And if the laws aren't being followed by those in power?
Then that needs to be brought before whomever is responsible for enforcing compliance, but then we're back to the whole "must have legal standing" thing, which is why a fan's complaint about a ref's call holds zero weight.

--Patrick
 
Then that needs to be brought before whomever is responsible for enforcing compliance, but then we're back to the whole "must have legal standing" thing, which is why a fan's complaint about a ref's call holds zero weight.

--Patrick
Aye. If you want to influence the officiating, I suggest becoming a golf fan.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Then that needs to be brought before whomever is responsible for enforcing compliance, but then we're back to the whole "must have legal standing" thing, which is why a fan's complaint about a ref's call holds zero weight.
That's the problem with the analogy. It's the citizens (fans) who are being shot. Not people have any sort of direct authority to oversee the cops.

Also, have you never seen all those inspiring sports films where the racist white team is fouling the underdog team that dared let a black player on their team? Even though the good coach takes his complaint to the sports association, they don't listen because that's the definition of institutionalized racism. That's the issue we're dealing with. Ignoring fouls on black players is just as institutionalized in much of our justice system as it used to be in sports. It takes outcry against the broken system to get the system to change. It doesn't just change spontaneously.

EDIT: Also, yeah, fans complaints do hold weight on a ref's calls. Maybe not on the pro level (assuming they don't vote with their wallet), but when it comes to college, high school? Yeah, if enough alumni start complaining that it's not right the way black players are being treated, then it changes, and it did. Because, in most places, black players somehow became "us" instead of "them" (until they kneel for the national anthem...)

And that's the problem. Most black people are still "them" to most white people. The people being shot by cops aren't joined to us by being our sporting champions. They're just faceless "them" and because of that we don't put enough pressure on our political bodies to ensure that they're treated as well as "us".
 
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What about the times when a cop (or other LEO) tries to do the right thing, and gets fired for "not doing their job"?
 
http://www.carbonated.tv/news/video...um=referral&utm_campaign=paidcontent-oct-06-2

One more for the pile.

Police in Salt Lake City, Utah, fatally shot a black man from behind as he tried to flee from them.
Patrick Harmon, 50, was reportedly pulled over by Officer Kris Smith because he was riding a bicycle without a light. The video shows officers asking him to remove his backpack. As he took his bag off, the cops asked him to turn around and put his arms around his back.
However, as the officers tried to arrest him, Harmon attempted to escape. That is when officer Clinton Fox fired three bullets at him, before shouting, “I’ll fucking shoot you!”
Harmon died on the spot.
The black man’s family and civil rights activists believe the incident was a result of racial profiling.
However, the district attorney’s office had a different story and claimed Harmon threatened the police officers and said “I’ll cut you.” They also said that he turned and faced officers with a knife as he was running.
Salt Lake officials also arugued the shooting was justified as they cops feared for their lives.
However, the footage of the incident doesn’t show Harmon making any of the threats.
“They just murdered him flat out. They are lying. There is no way they were threatened by anything. He was only trying to get away. He was scared. All he did was run. It hurts … They said ‘I’m going to kill you’ and they shot him three times. He’s just moaning on the ground,” said Alisha Shaw, Harmon’s niece.
Antoinette Harmon, his sister, said, “The police are going to stick together no matter if it’s wrong or right. They don’t care about black lives.”
 
Maybe I just want to know, Officer Charon, but if you were in that situation, where one of your closest friends at the precinct, decided one day to get spooked, and shoots a man dead who was reaching for his license, would you do everything you can to protect him from consequence, or will you give a statement, knowing it would damn him to prison?
Would I turn evidence against a friend, a comrade, a brother, if they did something wrong, unethical, illegal?

Yes, in a heartbeat. Because at the end of the day, I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror and hold myself accountable My honor, my integrity is not something I'm going to throw away.

And yes, I'd do the same thing if a family member committed a felony. Because you don't cover for that - the law is in place for a reason.
 
Would I turn evidence against a friend, a comrade, a brother, if they did something wrong, unethical, illegal?

Yes, in a heartbeat. Because at the end of the day, I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror and hold myself accountable My honor, my integrity is not something I'm going to throw away.

And yes, I'd do the same thing if a family member committed a felony. Because you don't cover for that - the law is in place for a reason.
If this is true, it makes you a minority.
 
Would I turn evidence against a friend, a comrade, a brother, if they did something wrong, unethical, illegal?

Yes, in a heartbeat. Because at the end of the day, I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror and hold myself accountable My honor, my integrity is not something I'm going to throw away.

And yes, I'd do the same thing if a family member committed a felony. Because you don't cover for that - the law is in place for a reason.
Aye. And I'm sure there's lots more like you.

It just sucks that we seem to see examples of the other sort.

Well, part of that comes from the unions doing what they're kinda supposed to - defending the member regardless, like a defense lawyer does. But still, I find that hurts my overall perception.

Add in that we don't ever know about the vast majority of discipline cases that get handled, and we have no idea how the "bad" cops are actually treated by their fellow coworkers.

We're left with the impressions formed by the big stories of the asshole cops who declare their gonna kill that guy, or - the video that sticks in my mind - the cop who pulled over a black woman for a traffic violation and never gave her a chance to respond to his "requests" before he ripped her from the car and grappled her on the pavement.
 
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/ch...lice-shoot-kill-man-wanted-surrender-firearm/

For a change of pace, here's police killing a hispanic man with his hands up. He made the mistake of calling the police to tell them he wanted to turn in a firearm that he owned. Multiple officers with rifles responded. Now, the language barrier appears to have been part of the problem. And he shouldn't have emerged from the house with his gun. It just seems like, since the dispatcher knew he only spoke Spanish, they could have sent a spanish-speaking officer to the scene? I mean, it wasn't a hostage situation, he wasn't threatening anyone, there doesn't seem to be any obvious reason to assume it was an inherently violent situation that would require a heavily armed response.

 
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And for another change of pace, a Fort Worth cop, apparently involved in a traffic stop, decides to spray mace at a crowd of motorcyclists who are driving by. No disciplinary action was taken.



In other cops vs bikers, the police in this video claimed that their car was surrounded by bikers and that the biker in the pink shirt was giving "gang signs" that made the officers "fear for their lives", thus justifying drawing a gun on the biker. The department confirmed that it was his service weapon, not a taser, that was pointed at the unarmed biker. No disciplinary action was taken.



And for the hat trick, a Chicago cop throws a cup of hot coffee at a biker's face while jaywalking.

 
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Young white dude kills cop, gets arrested instead of shot.

http://www.carbonated.tv/news/holli...um=referral&utm_campaign=paidcontent-oct-10-5

Hollis A. Daniels, 19, from Seguin, Texas, was taken into custody after police arrived at the dorm for a welfare check and found evidence of drugs and drug paraphernalia in his room. He was then taken into custody for further questioning.
According to reports, as Daniels arrived at the police station, he pulled out a gun and shot a police officer in the head and fled the scene. It still remains unknown how he got hold of the firearm — whether he had it with himself or he snatched it from an officer.
After shooting the cop, Daniels fled the headquarters on foot.
Police then placed the campus on lockdown and activated a search for the freshman, including SWAT members. After a search of nearly two hours, Daniels was arrested near Jones AT&T Stadium. A 9mm handgun was found on his person. Police would not confirm whether it was a police service weapon or Daniel's personal weapon.

So a black guy selling loose cigarettes who stands up is an immediately lethal threat, but a 19-year-old white kid who blew an officer's brains out isn't.
 
Young white dude kills cop, gets arrested instead of shot.

http://www.carbonated.tv/news/holli...um=referral&utm_campaign=paidcontent-oct-10-5

Hollis A. Daniels, 19, from Seguin, Texas, was taken into custody after police arrived at the dorm for a welfare check and found evidence of drugs and drug paraphernalia in his room. He was then taken into custody for further questioning.
According to reports, as Daniels arrived at the police station, he pulled out a gun and shot a police officer in the head and fled the scene. It still remains unknown how he got hold of the firearm — whether he had it with himself or he snatched it from an officer.
After shooting the cop, Daniels fled the headquarters on foot.
Police then placed the campus on lockdown and activated a search for the freshman, including SWAT members. After a search of nearly two hours, Daniels was arrested near Jones AT&T Stadium. A 9mm handgun was found on his person. Police would not confirm whether it was a police service weapon or Daniel's personal weapon.

So a black guy selling loose cigarettes who stands up is an immediately lethal threat, but a 19-year-old white kid who blew an officer's brains out isn't.
To be fair, he was likely holding the gun in a way less aggressive manner then dem thugz that force the poor cops to shoot them while they have their hands up...
 
Update: Footage ‘tells the truth,’ Utah nurse says after the SLC officer who arrested her was fired

TL;DR; Officer Payne fired, supervisor demoted.

Also, unfortunately the guy who was the subject of this (a victim of a car crash) died in the interim as well.

The article is long, but informative IMO.
I'm not bothering to read that.

I just wanted to say that from what I remember the superviser was the one who told the officer to arrest her. If I'm remembering rightI think they got the discipline backwards.
 
This was a bizarre read: Sevier deputy suffered panic attack while armed, couple charged with causing it
excerpts said:
SEVIERVILLE, Tenn., — A Sevier County Sheriff’s Office deputy opened fire without warning in a mobile home park, suffered an apparent panic attack four minutes later and was forcibly disarmed by a paramedic, body camera footage shows.
Deputy Justin Johnson did not mention the panic attack in his report on the December 2016 incident, and he remains on active duty, court records show.
Brian Keith Mullinax, 41, and his girlfriend, Tina Carrie Jo Cody, 37, spent 42 days in jail on felony charges, accused of causing what was described in court statements as a "panic attack" and which a detective called "some type of cardiac event." They remain under prosecution on misdemeanor charges, court records show.
(..)
Mullinax is set to stand trial in Sevier County Criminal Court on Tuesday on a charge that he assaulted Johnson. A lower court judge already dropped felony charges against both Cody and Mullinax, and a grand jury refused to indict Cody for causing the panic attack. She remains charged with resisting arrest.
The couple spent 42 days in jail because they were too poor to post bond and did not get a preliminary hearing within 10 business days as the law requires, records showed. It’s not clear why from those court records.
(..)
Johnson wrote in his report that he opened fire “in defense for my life” and the safety of the paramedics.
SCSO Detective Johnny Bohanan later added notes to Johnson’s report about the panic attack. They were brief.
“Because of the assault on Johnson and the fact that he was taken to the hospital with injuries and may have suffered some type of cardiac event as the result of this assault by both the male and female and all the statements and evidence, I charged” Mullinax and Cody with aggravated assault, Bohanan wrote.
 
Washington Post: N.J. police chief said black people are ‘like ISIS’ and he’d like to be ‘on the firing squad,’ feds say
excerpt said:
The former chief of a small township in New Jersey has been arrested on federal hate crime and civil rights charges for what federal authorities described as a pattern of racist comments and behavior[.]
(..)
In November 2015, for example, when he was talking to a subordinate officer about an African American man he believed to have slashed the tires of a police vehicle, Nucera said, “I wish that n‑‑‑‑‑ would come back from Trenton and give me a reason to put my hands on him, I’m tired of ’em. These n‑‑‑‑‑s are like ISIS, they have no value. They should line them all up and mow ’em down. I’d like to be on the firing squad, I could do it,” according to the complaint.
(..)
The physical violence of which Nucera is accused occurred in September 2016 (..) Though he was not kicking or struggling, Nucera approached, grab the teen’s head and slammed it into a metal door jamb, according to the complaint.
The officers involved described the incident to investigators, though one said he did not report it initially because he feared retaliation from Nucera.
 
In other news, that South Carolina cop who murdered a fleeing black suspect has just been sentenced to 20 years. You know what they say about blind squirrels.
 
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