[Movies] Star Wars The Force Awakens SPOILER THREAD!

Ok, so in case you didn't get it, this is the thread where we can talk about Episode VII without spoiler tags.

UNTAGGED SPOILERS AHEAD!!

I mean it guys, if you read any more you can't be upset at us.[DOUBLEPOST=1450409870,1450409452][/DOUBLEPOST]So we just got home about half an hour ago. Still digesting everything.

Kylo being Han and Leia's son, Rey's unknown parents (though I suspect she is either also a Solo or Luke's daughter)

Han's death, Poe's awesome piloting.

I did have a few problems with it. Mostly with how easy it was to take down Captain Phasma and how she just complied with them without really putting up any sort of fight.
Also, R2-D2 being in "low power" mode felt like a copout to me.

Anyway, I WILL be seeing it again and I am very much looking forward to it.
 
You know, I kinda hope Rey turns out to be Kylo's sister, and she eventually kills him in a duel, because it'll mirror what happened in the EU. I like the idea that ghosts of the EU's storylines can be found in the new trilogy.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
When Kylo Ren first took his helmet off, I was massively disappointed. But as the movie progressed, I began to understand... this is not a Sith master, this is not a Darth Vader or General Grievous or even a Darth Maul... this is a scared, confused little boy trying to fill what he imagines to be the shoes of his grandfather, and led astray by Snoke (who, I think it is important to note, is also not referred to as "Darth" even once). This is further reinforced by his tendency to lash out in fits of frustration (ex: trashing the control console with his saber when receiving word of the escaping droid). It made his murder of his father all the more wrenching - it was his moral event horizon.

Also the saber crossguards are still stupid :p
 
Only real problems I had with it were Kylo Ren's real name being Ben. Did Han and Leia have THAT much of a connection with ol' Ben Kenobi, or was it Luke that named him? I do hope they address this in later films.

And this was a mere personal peeve, I was kinda hoping for a ghost Yoda scene, but I'm cool with waiting toward the sequel.
 
I'm fully there and agree on the sad and tragic awesomeness of Han's death. I'm pretty sure nobody expected that. Especially after Han finally appreciated Chewie's bowcaster.

Poe Dameron is one smooth MoFo of a pilot. His first scene with Kylo Ren was awesome at showing this.

I loved the 'briefing' scene before the final battle. So we have a plan, let's do this!

The character introductions were well done all around, the new ones as well as the old ones. Though I'm not sure what Phasma's role was apart from just another cash-grabbing action figure. Perhaps another movie, or comic series, or novel is meant to shed light on her (see: cash grab).

All in all I loved the movie, it's vibrant feel. That moment when the X-Wings showed up at the horizon, barely above the waterline and then went on to wreak havoc on those TIEs. Yeehaw! That moment at the final battle when Poe deactivated the S-foils to pass through that gap and the TIE turned away in frustration (not crashing), was such a wonderful detail.
 
The scene with Rey in the torture chair with the stormtrooper. At first I thought that she wouldn't be able to escape because the First Order had given the guards training to resist the mind tricks. Then they showed her really applying the force to him. :trolol:

Also, the two troopers that turned back and walked away when Kylo found the empty chair.:rofl:
 
Oh dear, yes. So many great scenes with Rey tapping into the Force, probably going after what she heard from old folk tales about the mystical Jedi. Also that scene when she went force-pulling the lightsaber out of the snow with such force that she almost knocked out Kylo Ren.
 
Snoke spoke of an awakening. So while theories about the origin of Rey belonging to the Skywalker legacy are tempting, I'm actually more interested in the idea that she's unrelated to them. I can't buy into the idea that she's Leia's daughter, given how they obviously feel towards their son, they wouldn't have allowed their daughter to be dropped off someplace barren without some master-level trickery. Given that Leia felt the death of Han, a non-force user, I can only imagine she would have some sense of whether her daughter was alive or not, and chase after her if she existed. Therefore, I expect Rey isn't her daughter.

That essentially leaves Luke a a possible father, and I suppose that's possible. Ben and Yoda didn't have time to teach him the Jedi order, and as things stood they may have felt it didn't matter, and perhaps they felt that it was harmful to expect and train jedi to be monks. So maybe Luke had some children. As bad as things might have been for him afterwards, mentally, emotionally, he did attempt to train new Jedi. The conversations about it suggested there was more than one person being trained, but they can't all be his kids. They didn't learn about midichlorians, there wasn't a galaxy wide testing program, so he would have particularly sought out those he knew to be related to force users. However, if this was his daughter, I doubt he wouldn't know, and I doubt he would abandon her, even in his darkest despair. And, again, it's unlikely that he wouldn't know she was alive through the force - but perhaps he felt he had gone so wrong that no matter where she was she was better off.

So if she is his daughter, then when Kylo went bad (and probably killed other trainees who wouldn't follow him), she escaped or was rescued, and sent away where Kylo and Snoke wouldn't find her. However, Kylo should then have recognized her, or her him.

Thus it seems unlikely that she is a Skywalker, and it seems unlikely that she was trained by Luke. I think the end of the film is the first time she's met him. There's a remote possibility that he had offspring he didn't know about, and an even more remote possibility that he had a lot of offspring he intentionally created, but equally intentionally knew nothing about.

So I'm hanging Rey on the "awakening of the force" comment by Snoke, who is obviously concerned about the rise of new, powerful Jedi, but perhaps even more wants to replace his obviously flawed but irreplaceable Kylo with a better option.

I find it interesting how Kylo fetishizes Darth Vader. I hope there's more explanation and backstory on screen about this. One source could be luke himself, who, probably wanting others to view Vader as Luke did, probably talked him up during training. But I don't think that would account for the level Kylo takes it to. Not just keeping a keepsake, but modeling himself after Vader, mask and all. It's hard to get someone to go that far without significant, long term investment - the same way Palpatine groomed Anakin.

Luke is falling prey to the "fallen master" situation, where Obi-wan believes he failed Anakin but redeemed himself training Luke, Luke believes he failed Kylo (and through Kylo his sister and dear friend Han), and will resist teaching Rey but probably gain redemption by doing so.

All of this has happened before and it will happen again...

I'm not sure what Phasma's role was apart from just another cash-grabbing action figure.
Probably a character that will resurface (she just ended up in a garbage compactor just before the planet exploded, so she's probably still alive :p). I anticipate that the history of Fin, how he was taken, raised, etc, will play out a little bit and she will be part of it, having raised them specifically for her minions. Could be a side story spin-off in other media as you suggest.[DOUBLEPOST=1450445298,1450444706][/DOUBLEPOST]
Oh dear, yes. So many great scenes with Rey tapping into the Force, probably going after what she heard from old folk tales about the mystical Jedi. Also that scene when she went force-pulling the lightsaber out of the snow with such force that she almost knocked out Kylo Ren.
Unfortunately t feels like an anime where the lead character is weak with untapped potential, and they gain significant experience immediately through battles.

Some of the article positing about her birth suggests that the whole Luke/Mara Jade storyline will be adopted with significant changes, so it's more reasonable she's Luke's daughter.
 
Unfortunately t feels like an anime where the lead character is weak with untapped potential, and they gain significant experience immediately through battles.
Some of the article positing about her birth suggests that the whole Luke/Mara Jade storyline will be adopted with significant changes, so it's more reasonable she's Luke's daughter.
Thanks for the refinement, that was actually what I meant. All those scenes where Rey used well-known Force powers (well-known to us at least) whereas she thought everything a myth not that long before and never even had what little training Luke had with Obi Wan aboard the Falcon.
 
I think you may be right on the Leia-Rey connection, @stienman. With Han and Leia so intent on getting Kylo/Ben back, I think they would have been equally focused on rediscovering their daughter as well. And Leia would have known her when they met.

So, still possible Skywalker, but yeah, kinda beginning to feel like she's another character all together.

Kylo on the other hand, absolutely is a scared young man that doesn't really know what he is doing. He likely was feeling like he had to live up to the family's reputation and couldn't handle the pressure he was under, real or perceived. So, he fell under the influence of an outside figure that promised he could be greater.

I do not believe that "Snoke" is his real name. Some had thrown around the idea that Snoke = Darth Plagueis, the one Palpatine used stories about to influence Anakin. He supposedly had mastered death, so why not let his apprentice think he was dead and lie low, using the force to stay alive. He does appear to be horribly misfigured and is very pale, so could possibly be constantly on the brink of death.

I am glad that Snoke was also a hologram. Having him that large would just be silly and the cgi on him looked odd and out of place. However, once revealed to be just a hologram, it was ok.[DOUBLEPOST=1450447214,1450447041][/DOUBLEPOST]
Thanks for the refinement, that was actually what I meant. All those scenes where Rey used well-known Force powers (well-known to us at least) whereas she thought everything a myth not that long before and never even had what little training Luke had with Obi Wan aboard the Falcon.
Yeah, but remember also, that she demonstrated she was able to resist and even reverse Kylo's attempt to read HER thoughts. I kinda thought she tapped into him again and took what she needed to defeat him in the saber battle. OR, like Obi-Wan said on the Falcon in Ep. 4, she let the Force guide her movements.
 
Thanks for the refinement, that was actually what I meant. All those scenes where Rey used well-known Force powers (well-known to us at least) whereas she thought everything a myth not that long before and never even had what little training Luke had with Obi Wan aboard the Falcon.
I don't think she used anything that she didn't see or experience Kylo using first, though, so it doesn't feel too bad.

That she's more powerful and controlled than Kylo, though, is odd. Yes, he was fighting weakened in the forest, but in the interrogation chamber he was able to use his full ability and without any training she not only resisted him but attacked him as well.

She may be more powerful, but as Obi-Wan readily proved to Anakin, a lower powered Jedi with stronger training and more experience can handily beat a higher powered Jedi with weaker training and experience (who may be hobbled by letting his emotions get in the way).

Even if she is a higher powered Jedi, he clearly has more experience and training. In the case of the interrogation room he isn't hobbled in any way, and he seems emotionally in check until she dives into his mind. The best explanation I can come up with for this is that he's never encountered resistance from a Jedi (he's never tried it on Luke or Snoke, and only has experience with those not force capable), and so his mind control/reading/etc power is very, very weak. This would also lend credibility to the thought that Snoke is controlling Kylo, though. He obviously physically struggles while using this power, where she, once she clears her mind, has little problem exerting her will on others.

So I suppose it's not out of the blue, but the pattern of being beaten back at first, then growing and showing forth greater power and control and winning, is very strong in this movie, and I expect it'll be continued.

I'm trying to compare this to Luke and Anakin's journey, and both of them were similar, but not nearly as stark. Luke had to go away and train to level up, and Anakin trained for years with a master. Yes, they had some innate ability at the start, but they didn't grow by leaps and bounds during a series of fights happening within a day.

It makes for a more exciting story, certainly, but it does make it feel anime-ish.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I think what it really does is show how unrefined Kylo really is. He plays himself off as a full blown force user to maintain authority and intimidate enemies/underlings, but really he has the skill and control of a freshman padawan, aside from that one time he stopped a blaster bolt in midair and held it there for minutes. His saber-work is spotty (completely untrained and non-force sensitive Finn managed to do more than just die instantly to him, something that would never have been the case with a full Sith or Jedi), he can use the force to grab or push but not particularly well at times. His saber really suits him - it's a shoddy facsimile trying to pretend to be something much more fearsome than it is. Plus, he's obviously in constant emotional turmoil and lacks mental focus, which would make it even more difficult to control the force - the Jedi and Sith both emphasize focus, even though the Jedi attempt to attain focus by eliminating emotion while the Sith concentrate and focus on the emotion itself. Kylo Ren just vacillates and flails about, trying in vain to fill Vader's gigantic boots.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I thought it also quite noteworthy that the First Order's command staff was entirely populated by youths. It makes me think that this plays more into Snoke trying to be a puppetmaster, swaying and grooming followers while they're still young. Apparently people over 30 see through Snoke, or perhaps anyone old enough to remember or have fought in the Imperial navy against the Rebellion aren't interested in what he has to offer, or perhaps have factions of their own.

But it gave it all a very "oliver twist meets lord of the flies" kind of feeling.
 
Glad the new Stormtroopers were explained as kidnapped kids that were brainwashed, would've been a bit WEIRD if anyone joined an Empire spin-off willingly considering how dickish they were last time. Kinda reminds me of Clone Wars and Rebels how they'd kidnap force sensitive babies to make the Inquisitors. Unlucky for them, one random Storm Trooper gained a conscience despite YEARS of brainwashing.

I also really like how Kylo Ben turned out be basically a mook, hell he's more of a lapdog than people called Lord Vader! I never thought I'd laugh so hard at the guy who killed Han Solo. I also won't be surprised if he is still alive, Chewbacca was able to somehow survive all those explosions AND make his way to the Millenium Falcon AND find Rey and Finn...just chalk that up to the force I guess.

And I am kinda on the boat that Rey is Luke's secret daughter too, HOPEFULLY one he didn't know about because he was too focused on making sure his nephew didn't turn into a psycho sith lunatic with a weird taste in lightsabers.
 
My words after the end credits were: So /that's/ how they got harrison Ford on board again. 'One more time Han Solo please and we'll give him a proper ending and you're out of it for good!', and a lot of money.
:)
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I did kind of resent the "ventral cannons" bit with the hero-seeking warheads.

Proton torpedos are movie canon, they could just have easily called them that. Or concussion missiles if they wanted to borrow from the games a little.
 
You know, it never occurred to me that he wouldn't be alive. I guess the planet was destroyed, but I'd be really surprised if they just ended him there.
I dunno. Yeah, they left it open a sliver of a crack, but I think we can count him out. I think it'll become important later as Leia blames herself for encouraging him to go reconcile, suggesting that he as a father figure would be sufficient, when it turns out that Han was right and he was not able to accomplish that. Kylo needed to take that step, but it will end up tearing him apart.

But then who will redeem him? If it's his mother, then you're left with the many tropes surrounding a mother's love. If it's Rey, then you're left unfulfilled because his own father couldn't do it, yet this other character can?

If there's no redemption, it's not a Star Wars plot line.
 
I did kind of resent the "ventral cannons" bit with the hero-seeking warheads.

Proton torpedos are movie canon, they could just have easily called them that. Or concussion missiles if they wanted to borrow from the games a little.

At least they mentioned Mag pulse.

That's a name I haven't heard since....


...the freaking TIE Fighter series.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
At least they mentioned Mag pulse.

That's a name I haven't heard since....


...the freaking TIE Fighter series.
And notably weren't mounted on Tie Fighters. But hey, Tie Fighters can fly in atmo now and are 2 seaters, so I guess there have been some upgrades over the last 30 years.

But seriously, they say "mag pulse" but can't call a seeking warhead a missile or torpedo?
 
And notably weren't mounted on Tie Fighters. But hey, Tie Fighters can fly in atmo now and are 2 seaters, so I guess there have been some upgrades over the last 30 years.

But seriously, they say "mag pulse" but can't call a seeking warhead a missile or torpedo?
Nevertheless, I was pleased to see they looked like, and moved like the missiles in the games as well.[DOUBLEPOST=1450471355,1450471309][/DOUBLEPOST]I just got back from the movie and need a serious nap. Jun cried quite a few tears when Han died.
 
Watched it and it was great.

The lightsaber fights were awesome and felt a lot like the few ones we saw in in the original trilogy with all the heaviness in every hit. Not like the acrobatic stuff from the prequels.

The dogfights were great. Poe is awesome. Love that the pilots worked on their own machines before take off.

They thankfully avoided the "You lied to me" movie cliche. Fin tells Rey the truth and she's ok with it. Great.

Han's death and the "I forgive you" look he gives Ben/Kylo Ren.

Some People in the audience laughed after Kylo Ren removed his helmet.

Man, the nazi analogy is really strong this time. The speech was even held at a place that looks a lot like the Reichsparteigelände in Nürnberg.

Maybe it was the 3d but some of the cgi didn't looked so good on some creatures.

Kylo Ren and Phasma both come back in the next movie. Similar how Vader got away in "A New Hope" and came back in "Empire". It would be to much of a waste of a character with Phasma.

Poe and Fin will team up doing missions together and the next movie will start with them in a sticky situation.

Wait a moment. So the new super weapon needs a whole sun to fire, so where did they get the energy for the first shot. Was it a system with two suns? Also it's not a space station but a whole planet, I doubt it can fly through space. After using the suns the weapon becomes useless.

Even though it's a great movie, it feels like it was written with plot elements of all Star Wars movies (the original trilogy) with the attempt to create the perfect Star Wars movie.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Some People in the audience laughed after Kylo Ren removed his helmet
Well, he does look like a complete and utter goober without the helmet. That's why I was so disappointed at first. I was like "Oh man, they need to fire their casting director" but the longer the movie ran, the more it made sense to me.

Wait a moment. So the new super weapon needs a whole sun to fire, so where did they get the energy for the first shot. Was it a system with two suns? Also it's not a space station but a whole planet, I doubt it can fly through space. After using the suns the weapon becomes useless.
I think it uses half a sun to fire. But your point about it not moving is a valid one. Although, I guess they only needed to use it twice - once to destroy the New Republic governmental seat, and once more to destroy the Resistance base.
 
I think kylo killing solo is in the end going to be akin to Vader seeing Luke electrocuted and having a change of heart

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
 
The more I think about it, the worse it is if Kylo is dead. If he's gone that means we need another dark jedi for the later movies. Seems like a waste.
 
The more I think about it, the worse it is if Kylo is dead. If he's gone that means we need another dark jedi for the later movies. Seems like a waste.
He's not dead. The general was ordered to evacuate the planet with him so he couldn complete his training. So I think he got rescued off screen

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I just got back, and haven't read through all of this thread yet, so this might have already been mentioned. But I have a theory as to how Rey got so good at the force so quick.

She's obviously naturally strong in the force. It's even a bit responsible as to how 'lucky' she was in their escape from Jakku, and why she didn't know why she was so good at piloting. But when she was being interrogated, when Kylo was probing her mind, there's a moment when her natural ability is pushing against it, and she starts reading his instead. And I think in that moment, when their minds were connected, she may have gleaned some of his training to help 'awaken' her power.
 
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I just got back, and haven't read through all of this thread yet, so this might have already been mentioned. But I have a theory as to how Rey got so good at the force so quick.

She's obviously naturally strong in the force. It's even a bit responsible as to how 'lucky' she was in their escape from Jakku, and why she didn't know why she was so good at piloting. But when she was being interrogated, when Kylo was probing her mind, there's a moment when her natural ability is pushing against it, and she starts reading his instead. And I think in that moment, when their minds were connected, she may have gleamed some of his training to help 'awaken' her power.
Neat, like a psychic Taskmaster!
 
Thank god! We finally got a sequel worthy of being called Star Wars. Saw it with my 8 year old son who said it was the best movie ever. I think this was a great passing the torch movie. The old characters are there but by the third act of the film it's clear that Rey, Finn, and Poe are the new heroes of this trilogy and I can't wait to see more from them.

Really hope Rey has no relation to any of the old characters. Let her have her own heroic arc that doesn't require her to be the daughter of anyone that has come before. We are already exploring that with Kylo/Ben.
 
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