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Star Wars The Force Awakens SPOILER THREAD!

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Dec 17, 2015#1

General Specific

Ok, so in case you didn't get it, this is the thread where we can talk about Episode VII without spoiler tags.

UNTAGGED SPOILERS AHEAD!!

I mean it guys, if you read any more you can't be upset at us.[DOUBLEPOST=1450409870,1450409452][/DOUBLEPOST]So we just got home about half an hour ago. Still digesting everything.

Kylo being Han and Leia's son, Rey's unknown parents (though I suspect she is either also a Solo or Luke's daughter)

Han's death, Poe's awesome piloting.

I did have a few problems with it. Mostly with how easy it was to take down Captain Phasma and how she just complied with them without really putting up any sort of fight.
Also, R2-D2 being in "low power" mode felt like a copout to me.

Anyway, I WILL be seeing it again and I am very much looking forward to it.

Dec 17, 2015#2

blotsfan

I think Rey was being trained by Luke before he abandoned the temple

Dec 17, 2015#3

strawman

blotsfan said:
I think Rey was being trained by Luke before he abandoned the temple

Ooh, I like this. She's about the right age, and the Jedi/sith have a history of dumping their force babies on barren wastelands.

Dec 17, 2015#4

bhamv3

You know, I kinda hope Rey turns out to be Kylo's sister, and she eventually kills him in a duel, because it'll mirror what happened in the EU. I like the idea that ghosts of the EU's storylines can be found in the new trilogy.

Dec 18, 2015#5

GasBandit

When Kylo Ren first took his helmet off, I was massively disappointed. But as the movie progressed, I began to understand... this is not a Sith master, this is not a Darth Vader or General Grievous or even a Darth Maul... this is a scared, confused little boy trying to fill what he imagines to be the shoes of his grandfather, and led astray by Snoke (who, I think it is important to note, is also not referred to as "Darth" even once). This is further reinforced by his tendency to lash out in fits of frustration (ex: trashing the control console with his saber when receiving word of the escaping droid). It made his murder of his father all the more wrenching - it was his moral event horizon.

Also the saber crossguards are still stupid

Dec 18, 2015#6

Yoshimickster

Only real problems I had with it were Kylo Ren's real name being Ben. Did Han and Leia have THAT much of a connection with ol' Ben Kenobi, or was it Luke that named him? I do hope they address this in later films.

And this was a mere personal peeve, I was kinda hoping for a ghost Yoda scene, but I'm cool with waiting toward the sequel.

Dec 18, 2015#7

Just Me

I'm fully there and agree on the sad and tragic awesomeness of Han's death. I'm pretty sure nobody expected that. Especially after Han finally appreciated Chewie's bowcaster.

Poe Dameron is one smooth MoFo of a pilot. His first scene with Kylo Ren was awesome at showing this.

I loved the 'briefing' scene before the final battle. So we have a plan, let's do this!

The character introductions were well done all around, the new ones as well as the old ones. Though I'm not sure what Phasma's role was apart from just another cash-grabbing action figure. Perhaps another movie, or comic series, or novel is meant to shed light on her (see: cash grab).

All in all I loved the movie, it's vibrant feel. That moment when the X-Wings showed up at the horizon, barely above the waterline and then went on to wreak havoc on those TIEs. Yeehaw! That moment at the final battle when Poe deactivated the S-foils to pass through that gap and the TIE turned away in frustration (not crashing), was such a wonderful detail.

Dec 18, 2015#8

General Specific

The scene with Rey in the torture chair with the stormtrooper. At first I thought that she wouldn't be able to escape because the First Order had given the guards training to resist the mind tricks. Then they showed her really applying the force to him. :trolol:

Also, the two troopers that turned back and walked away when Kylo found the empty chair. :rofl:

Dec 18, 2015#9

Just Me

Oh dear, yes. So many great scenes with Rey tapping into the Force, probably going after what she heard from old folk tales about the mystical Jedi. Also that scene when she went force-pulling the lightsaber out of the snow with such force that she almost knocked out Kylo Ren.

Dec 18, 2015#10

strawman

Snoke spoke of an awakening. So while theories about the origin of Rey belonging to the Skywalker legacy are tempting, I'm actually more interested in the idea that she's unrelated to them. I can't buy into the idea that she's Leia's daughter, given how they obviously feel towards their son, they wouldn't have allowed their daughter to be dropped off someplace barren without some master-level trickery. Given that Leia felt the death of Han, a non-force user, I can only imagine she would have some sense of whether her daughter was alive or not, and chase after her if she existed. Therefore, I expect Rey isn't her daughter.

That essentially leaves Luke a a possible father, and I suppose that's possible. Ben and Yoda didn't have time to teach him the Jedi order, and as things stood they may have felt it didn't matter, and perhaps they felt that it was harmful to expect and train jedi to be monks. So maybe Luke had some children. As bad as things might have been for him afterwards, mentally, emotionally, he did attempt to train new Jedi. The conversations about it suggested there was more than one person being trained, but they can't all be his kids. They didn't learn about midichlorians, there wasn't a galaxy wide testing program, so he would have particularly sought out those he knew to be related to force users. However, if this was his daughter, I doubt he wouldn't know, and I doubt he would abandon her, even in his darkest despair. And, again, it's unlikely that he wouldn't know she was alive through the force - but perhaps he felt he had gone so wrong that no matter where she was she was better off.

So if she is his daughter, then when Kylo went bad (and probably killed other trainees who wouldn't follow him), she escaped or was rescued, and sent away where Kylo and Snoke wouldn't find her. However, Kylo should then have recognized her, or her him.

Thus it seems unlikely that she is a Skywalker, and it seems unlikely that she was trained by Luke. I think the end of the film is the first time she's met him. There's a remote possibility that he had offspring he didn't know about, and an even more remote possibility that he had a lot of offspring he intentionally created, but equally intentionally knew nothing about.

So I'm hanging Rey on the "awakening of the force" comment by Snoke, who is obviously concerned about the rise of new, powerful Jedi, but perhaps even more wants to replace his obviously flawed but irreplaceable Kylo with a better option.

I find it interesting how Kylo fetishizes Darth Vader. I hope there's more explanation and backstory on screen about this. One source could be luke himself, who, probably wanting others to view Vader as Luke did, probably talked him up during training. But I don't think that would account for the level Kylo takes it to. Not just keeping a keepsake, but modeling himself after Vader, mask and all. It's hard to get someone to go that far without significant, long term investment - the same way Palpatine groomed Anakin.

Luke is falling prey to the "fallen master" situation, where Obi-wan believes he failed Anakin but redeemed himself training Luke, Luke believes he failed Kylo (and through Kylo his sister and dear friend Han), and will resist teaching Rey but probably gain redemption by doing so.

All of this has happened before and it will happen again...

Just Me said:
I'm not sure what Phasma's role was apart from just another cash-grabbing action figure.

Probably a character that will resurface (she just ended up in a garbage compactor just before the planet exploded, so she's probably still alive

). I anticipate that the history of Fin, how he was taken, raised, etc, will play out a little bit and she will be part of it, having raised them specifically for her minions. Could be a side story spin-off in other media as you suggest.[DOUBLEPOST=1450445298,1450444706][/DOUBLEPOST]

Just Me said:
Oh dear, yes. So many great scenes with Rey tapping into the Force, probably going after what she heard from old folk tales about the mystical Jedi. Also that scene when she went force-pulling the lightsaber out of the snow with such force that she almost knocked out Kylo Ren.

Unfortunately t feels like an anime where the lead character is weak with untapped potential, and they gain significant experience immediately through battles.

Some of the article positing about her birth suggests that the whole Luke/Mara Jade storyline will be adopted with significant changes, so it's more reasonable she's Luke's daughter.

Dec 18, 2015#11

Just Me

stienman said:
Unfortunately t feels like an anime where the lead character is weak with untapped potential, and they gain significant experience immediately through battles.
Some of the article positing about her birth suggests that the whole Luke/Mara Jade storyline will be adopted with significant changes, so it's more reasonable she's Luke's daughter.

Thanks for the refinement, that was actually what I meant. All those scenes where Rey used well-known Force powers (well-known to us at least) whereas she thought everything a myth not that long before and never even had what little training Luke had with Obi Wan aboard the Falcon.

Dec 18, 2015#12

General Specific

I think you may be right on the Leia-Rey connection, @stienman. With Han and Leia so intent on getting Kylo/Ben back, I think they would have been equally focused on rediscovering their daughter as well. And Leia would have known her when they met.

So, still possible Skywalker, but yeah, kinda beginning to feel like she's another character all together.

Kylo on the other hand, absolutely is a scared young man that doesn't really know what he is doing. He likely was feeling like he had to live up to the family's reputation and couldn't handle the pressure he was under, real or perceived. So, he fell under the influence of an outside figure that promised he could be greater.

I do not believe that "Snoke" is his real name. Some had thrown around the idea that Snoke = Darth Plagueis, the one Palpatine used stories about to influence Anakin. He supposedly had mastered death, so why not let his apprentice think he was dead and lie low, using the force to stay alive. He does appear to be horribly misfigured and is very pale, so could possibly be constantly on the brink of death.

I am glad that Snoke was also a hologram. Having him that large would just be silly and the cgi on him looked odd and out of place. However, once revealed to be just a hologram, it was ok.[DOUBLEPOST=1450447214,1450447041][/DOUBLEPOST]

Just Me said:
Thanks for the refinement, that was actually what I meant. All those scenes where Rey used well-known Force powers (well-known to us at least) whereas she thought everything a myth not that long before and never even had what little training Luke had with Obi Wan aboard the Falcon.

Yeah, but remember also, that she demonstrated she was able to resist and even reverse Kylo's attempt to read HER thoughts. I kinda thought she tapped into him again and took what she needed to defeat him in the saber battle. OR, like Obi-Wan said on the Falcon in Ep. 4, she let the Force guide her movements.

Dec 18, 2015#13

strawman

Just Me said:
Thanks for the refinement, that was actually what I meant. All those scenes where Rey used well-known Force powers (well-known to us at least) whereas she thought everything a myth not that long before and never even had what little training Luke had with Obi Wan aboard the Falcon.

I don't think she used anything that she didn't see or experience Kylo using first, though, so it doesn't feel too bad.

That she's more powerful and controlled than Kylo, though, is odd. Yes, he was fighting weakened in the forest, but in the interrogation chamber he was able to use his full ability and without any training she not only resisted him but attacked him as well.

She may be more powerful, but as Obi-Wan readily proved to Anakin, a lower powered Jedi with stronger training and more experience can handily beat a higher powered Jedi with weaker training and experience (who may be hobbled by letting his emotions get in the way).

Even if she is a higher powered Jedi, he clearly has more experience and training. In the case of the interrogation room he isn't hobbled in any way, and he seems emotionally in check until she dives into his mind. The best explanation I can come up with for this is that he's never encountered resistance from a Jedi (he's never tried it on Luke or Snoke, and only has experience with those not force capable), and so his mind control/reading/etc power is very, very weak. This would also lend credibility to the thought that Snoke is controlling Kylo, though. He obviously physically struggles while using this power, where she, once she clears her mind, has little problem exerting her will on others.

So I suppose it's not out of the blue, but the pattern of being beaten back at first, then growing and showing forth greater power and control and winning, is very strong in this movie, and I expect it'll be continued.

I'm trying to compare this to Luke and Anakin's journey, and both of them were similar, but not nearly as stark. Luke had to go away and train to level up, and Anakin trained for years with a master. Yes, they had some innate ability at the start, but they didn't grow by leaps and bounds during a series of fights happening within a day.

It makes for a more exciting story, certainly, but it does make it feel anime-ish.

Dec 18, 2015#14

GasBandit

I think what it really does is show how unrefined Kylo really is. He plays himself off as a full blown force user to maintain authority and intimidate enemies/underlings, but really he has the skill and control of a freshman padawan, aside from that one time he stopped a blaster bolt in midair and held it there for minutes. His saber-work is spotty (completely untrained and non-force sensitive Finn managed to do more than just die instantly to him, something that would never have been the case with a full Sith or Jedi), he can use the force to grab or push but not particularly well at times. His saber really suits him - it's a shoddy facsimile trying to pretend to be something much more fearsome than it is. Plus, he's obviously in constant emotional turmoil and lacks mental focus, which would make it even more difficult to control the force - the Jedi and Sith both emphasize focus, even though the Jedi attempt to attain focus by eliminating emotion while the Sith concentrate and focus on the emotion itself. Kylo Ren just vacillates and flails about, trying in vain to fill Vader's gigantic boots.

Dec 18, 2015#15

strawman

GasBandit said:
...that one time he stopped a blaster bolt in midair and held it there for minutes...

Which, by the way, was super cool.

Dec 18, 2015#16

GasBandit

I thought it also quite noteworthy that the First Order's command staff was entirely populated by youths. It makes me think that this plays more into Snoke trying to be a puppetmaster, swaying and grooming followers while they're still young. Apparently people over 30 see through Snoke, or perhaps anyone old enough to remember or have fought in the Imperial navy against the Rebellion aren't interested in what he has to offer, or perhaps have factions of their own.

But it gave it all a very "oliver twist meets lord of the flies" kind of feeling.

Dec 18, 2015#17

Yoshimickster

Glad the new Stormtroopers were explained as kidnapped kids that were brainwashed, would've been a bit WEIRD if anyone joined an Empire spin-off willingly considering how dickish they were last time. Kinda reminds me of Clone Wars and Rebels how they'd kidnap force sensitive babies to make the Inquisitors. Unlucky for them, one random Storm Trooper gained a conscience despite YEARS of brainwashing.

I also really like how Kylo Ben turned out be basically a mook, hell he's more of a lapdog than people called Lord Vader! I never thought I'd laugh so hard at the guy who killed Han Solo. I also won't be surprised if he is still alive, Chewbacca was able to somehow survive all those explosions AND make his way to the Millenium Falcon AND find Rey and Finn...just chalk that up to the force I guess.

And I am kinda on the boat that Rey is Luke's secret daughter too, HOPEFULLY one he didn't know about because he was too focused on making sure his nephew didn't turn into a psycho sith lunatic with a weird taste in lightsabers.

Dec 18, 2015#18

Just Me

My words after the end credits were: So /that's/ how they got harrison Ford on board again. 'One more time Han Solo please and we'll give him a proper ending and you're out of it for good!', and a lot of money.

Dec 18, 2015#19

blotsfan

Yoshimickster said:
I also won't be surprised if he is still alive,

You know, it never occurred to me that he wouldn't be alive. I guess the planet was destroyed, but I'd be really surprised if they just ended him there.

Dec 18, 2015#20

GasBandit

I did kind of resent the "ventral cannons" bit with the hero-seeking warheads.

Proton torpedos are movie canon, they could just have easily called them that. Or concussion missiles if they wanted to borrow from the games a little.

Dec 18, 2015#21

strawman

blotsfan said:
You know, it never occurred to me that he wouldn't be alive. I guess the planet was destroyed, but I'd be really surprised if they just ended him there.

I dunno. Yeah, they left it open a sliver of a crack, but I think we can count him out. I think it'll become important later as Leia blames herself for encouraging him to go reconcile, suggesting that he as a father figure would be sufficient, when it turns out that Han was right and he was not able to accomplish that. Kylo needed to take that step, but it will end up tearing him apart.

But then who will redeem him? If it's his mother, then you're left with the many tropes surrounding a mother's love. If it's Rey, then you're left unfulfilled because his own father couldn't do it, yet this other character can?

If there's no redemption, it's not a Star Wars plot line.

Dec 18, 2015#22

GasBandit

stienman said:
If there's no redemption, it's not a Star Wars plot line.

I dunno, it's not like there was redemption for Darth Maul, The Emperor, General Grievous, Count Dooku, Boba Fett or Jabba the Hutt.

Or Greedo.

Dec 18, 2015#23

Terrik

GasBandit said:
I did kind of resent the "ventral cannons" bit with the hero-seeking warheads.

Proton torpedos are movie canon, they could just have easily called them that. Or concussion missiles if they wanted to borrow from the games a little.

At least they mentioned Mag pulse.

That's a name I haven't heard since....

...the freaking TIE Fighter series.

Dec 18, 2015#24

GasBandit

Terrik said:
At least they mentioned Mag pulse.

That's a name I haven't heard since....

...the freaking TIE Fighter series.

And notably weren't mounted on Tie Fighters. But hey, Tie Fighters can fly in atmo now and are 2 seaters, so I guess there have been some upgrades over the last 30 years.

But seriously, they say "mag pulse" but can't call a seeking warhead a missile or torpedo?

Dec 18, 2015#25

Terrik

GasBandit said:
And notably weren't mounted on Tie Fighters. But hey, Tie Fighters can fly in atmo now and are 2 seaters, so I guess there have been some upgrades over the last 30 years.

But seriously, they say "mag pulse" but can't call a seeking warhead a missile or torpedo?

Nevertheless, I was pleased to see they looked like, and moved like the missiles in the games as well.[DOUBLEPOST=1450471355,1450471309][/DOUBLEPOST]I just got back from the movie and need a serious nap. Jun cried quite a few tears when Han died.

Dec 18, 2015#26

chris

Watched it and it was great.

The lightsaber fights were awesome and felt a lot like the few ones we saw in in the original trilogy with all the heaviness in every hit. Not like the acrobatic stuff from the prequels.

The dogfights were great. Poe is awesome. Love that the pilots worked on their own machines before take off.

They thankfully avoided the "You lied to me" movie cliche. Fin tells Rey the truth and she's ok with it. Great.

Han's death and the "I forgive you" look he gives Ben/Kylo Ren.

Some People in the audience laughed after Kylo Ren removed his helmet.

Man, the nazi analogy is really strong this time. The speech was even held at a place that looks a lot like the Reichsparteigelände in Nürnberg.

Maybe it was the 3d but some of the cgi didn't looked so good on some creatures.

Kylo Ren and Phasma both come back in the next movie. Similar how Vader got away in "A New Hope" and came back in "Empire". It would be to much of a waste of a character with Phasma.

Poe and Fin will team up doing missions together and the next movie will start with them in a sticky situation.

Wait a moment. So the new super weapon needs a whole sun to fire, so where did they get the energy for the first shot. Was it a system with two suns? Also it's not a space station but a whole planet, I doubt it can fly through space. After using the suns the weapon becomes useless.

Even though it's a great movie, it feels like it was written with plot elements of all Star Wars movies (the original trilogy) with the attempt to create the perfect Star Wars movie.

Dec 18, 2015#27

GasBandit

chris said:
Some People in the audience laughed after Kylo Ren removed his helmet

Well, he does look like a complete and utter goober without the helmet. That's why I was so disappointed at first. I was like "Oh man, they need to fire their casting director" but the longer the movie ran, the more it made sense to me.

Wait a moment. So the new super weapon needs a whole sun to fire, so where did they get the energy for the first shot. Was it a system with two suns? Also it's not a space station but a whole planet, I doubt it can fly through space. After using the suns the weapon becomes useless.

I think it uses half a sun to fire. But your point about it not moving is a valid one. Although, I guess they only needed to use it twice - once to destroy the New Republic governmental seat, and once more to destroy the Resistance base.

Dec 18, 2015#28

CrimsonSoul

I think kylo killing solo is in the end going to be akin to Vader seeing Luke electrocuted and having a change of heart

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Dec 18, 2015#29

blotsfan

The more I think about it, the worse it is if Kylo is dead. If he's gone that means we need another dark jedi for the later movies. Seems like a waste.

Dec 18, 2015#30

CrimsonSoul

blotsfan said:
The more I think about it, the worse it is if Kylo is dead. If he's gone that means we need another dark jedi for the later movies. Seems like a waste.

He's not dead. The general was ordered to evacuate the planet with him so he couldn complete his training. So I think he got rescued off screen

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Dec 18, 2015#31

Yoshimickster

blotsfan said:
The more I think about it, the worse it is if Kylo is dead. If he's gone that means we need another dark jedi for the later movies. Seems like a waste.

Eh, worked in Star Wars Rebels!

Dec 18, 2015#32

Ravenpoe

I just got back, and haven't read through all of this thread yet, so this might have already been mentioned. But I have a theory as to how Rey got so good at the force so quick.

She's obviously naturally strong in the force. It's even a bit responsible as to how 'lucky' she was in their escape from Jakku, and why she didn't know why she was so good at piloting. But when she was being interrogated, when Kylo was probing her mind, there's a moment when her natural ability is pushing against it, and she starts reading his instead. And I think in that moment, when their minds were connected, she may have gleaned some of his training to help 'awaken' her power.

Dec 18, 2015#33

Yoshimickster

Ravenpoe said:
I just got back, and haven't read through all of this thread yet, so this might have already been mentioned. But I have a theory as to how Rey got so good at the force so quick.

She's obviously naturally strong in the force. It's even a bit responsible as to how 'lucky' she was in their escape from Jakku, and why she didn't know why she was so good at piloting. But when she was being interrogated, when Kylo was probing her mind, there's a moment when her natural ability is pushing against it, and she starts reading his instead. And I think in that moment, when their minds were connected, she may have gleamed some of his training to help 'awaken' her power.

Neat, like a psychic Taskmaster!

Dec 18, 2015#34

strawman

I've convinced myself rey is lukes daughter. The saber dream is the main reason.

Dec 18, 2015#35

Gryfter

Thank god! We finally got a sequel worthy of being called Star Wars. Saw it with my 8 year old son who said it was the best movie ever. I think this was a great passing the torch movie. The old characters are there but by the third act of the film it's clear that Rey, Finn, and Poe are the new heroes of this trilogy and I can't wait to see more from them.

Really hope Rey has no relation to any of the old characters. Let her have her own heroic arc that doesn't require her to be the daughter of anyone that has come before. We are already exploring that with Kylo/Ben.

Dec 19, 2015#36

GasBandit

Dec 19, 2015#37

Charlie Don't Surf

at first I was sad that Han Solo died, but then I was happy that Harrison Ford was free, since it was obvious he really hated to be there 99% of the time he was on screen

Dec 19, 2015#38

Ravenpoe

I enjoyed a lot of the little touches on the film, that the movie didn't feel it needed to explain. Like Kylo beating his blaster wound during the big lightsaber fight, using that pain to fuel himself in the dark side.

Dec 19, 2015#39

blotsfan

Charlie Don't Surf said:
at first I was sad that Han Solo died, but then I was happy that Harrison Ford was free, since it was obvious he really hated to be there 99% of the time he was on screen

Really? I thought he did a great job with it. I know he didn't really like doing Star Wars, but I read his performance as more "alright, this is the last time I'm doing this, so I'm gonna give it my all."

Dec 19, 2015#40

CrimsonSoul

Oh man I forgot about that nurse that was taking care of chewie "Oh wow you were sooo brave" lmao that shit was funny.

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Dec 19, 2015#41

chris

Ravenpoe said:
I enjoyed a lot of the little touches on the film, that the movie didn't feel it needed to explain. Like Kylo beating his blaster wound during the big lightsaber fight, using that pain to fuel himself in the dark side.

This movie has so many little details and touches in it, people will find something new after every rewatch.

It was probably pointed out elsewhere already but I just realized that the lightsaber Finn and Rey use is the one Luke lost during his fight with Vader.

Dec 19, 2015#42

Ravenpoe

chris said:
This movie has so many little details and touches in it, people will find something new after every rewatch.

It was probably pointed out elsewhere already but I just realized that the lightsaber Finn and Rey use is the one Luke lost during his fight with Vader.

Yes, it's Anakin's lightsaber, the one taken from him by Obi Wan on Mustafar. That's why Kylo claimed it should be his.

Dec 19, 2015#43

chris

It's more that I forgot that Luke lost it in the first place. So Han's question how Maz got it in the first place is reasonable.

Dec 19, 2015#44

GasBandit

Well, Bespin is a gas giant, right? So, in theory, the saber could have just been boinging up and down like a pendulum until somebody noticed it?

/morbo GAS GIANTS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY

Dec 19, 2015#45

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
Well, Bespin is a gas giant, right? So, in theory, the saber could have just been boinging up and down like a pendulum until somebody noticed it?

/Han THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY

ftfy

Dec 19, 2015#46

Gryfter

Given the Ugnaunts of Cloud City found all of Threepio when he was blown up, I think it's reasonable to assume that Luke's sabre was found by them and sold to the black market where it eventually found it's way to Maz.

Dec 19, 2015#47

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
I dunno, it's not like there was redemption for Darth Maul, The Emperor, General Grievous, Count Dooku, Boba Fett or Jabba the Hutt.

Or Greedo.

Or Han Solo now, ehhhh? :awesome:

Threw that guy to the tentacle monster--I feel like that happened as a purposeful "fuck you" to the whole "Han Solo is a murderer if he shoots Greedo first" thing. I laughed.

Loved the movie. Emotions--I had feelings! The characters had feelings! They were people! Real sets! Real acting! Real directing!

The swooping feeling of being in the cockpit, and that chase through Jakku. Rei referring to garbage, and the camera pans to the Millennium Falcon

. So great.

I really felt the destruction of the Republic. More actually than I felt the destruction of Alderaan, but maybe that's because I saw the first Star Wars movie when I was 6 and it didn't really hit me that way.

Really want to know who Snoke is and what's his deal.

I thought I'd be pissed if any of the old characters were killed, but Han's death was done so well and I was so into the scene that I was just along for it. That was really the movie--all I wanted was a good time and it gave that in spades. The old characters were done well, the new characters too. Just all around an excellent time.

There were many funny moments in the movie, but the funniest thing in my experience going was after the movie, when a hipster-looking girl outside was telling her friend she was disappointed because there was less CGI than the prequel trilogy.

Adorable moment: when Rei goes into the basement room and opens the wooden chest, the little kids in the audience all started whispering to each other "it's a litesaber" "litesaber" "she found a litesaber". It was really cute.

Dec 19, 2015#48

Ravenpoe

Zero Esc said:
Adorable moment: when Rei goes into the basement room and opens the wooden chest, the little kids in the audience all started whispering to each other "it's a litesaber" "litesaber" "she found a litesaber". It was really cute.

I was sitting next to three little kids, about 8 years old, who were there with one of the kids moms. Their excitement was palpable, all through the previews that'd get really excited when they thought the movie was starting, and then sad when it was just another preview. I could hear them gasp and laugh and tell that they were all just super into it, and it made me smile.

On the subject of Snoke, it occurs to me that because we only ever see him as a hologram, he could be a wizard of oz type character. We think we know what he looks like, but he could literally be anyone or anything, and simply projecting that image.

Dec 19, 2015#49

Hailey Knight

Ravenpoe said:
I was sitting next to three little kids, about 8 years old, who were there with one of the kids moms. Their excitement was palpable, all through the previews that'd get really excited when they thought the movie was starting, and then sad when it was just another preview. I could hear them gasp and laugh and tell that they were all just super into it, and it made me smile.

On the subject of Snoke, it occurs to me that because we only ever see him as a hologram, he could be a wizard of oz type character. We think we know what he looks like, but he could literally be anyone or anything, and simply projecting that image.

I usually hate movie audiences, but this one was a blast, which is especially surprising since it was full of little kids and was sold-out, every seat. My favorite was the middle-aged woman in a Wookie hoodie.

I can totally sympathize with those kids and the trailer sadness. There were so many; it was almost a half-hour after our start time before the movie finally began. AMC usually goes overboard, but it was ridiculous today.

Dec 19, 2015#50

ThatNickGuy

Ravenpoe said:
On the subject of Snoke, it occurs to me that because we only ever see him as a hologram, he could be a wizard of oz type character. We think we know what he looks like, but he could literally be anyone or anything, and simply projecting that image.

It was nice knowing Voldemort is still getting work after the Harry Potter movies, at least.

Dec 19, 2015#51

Dei

All I can really say right now is that if Rei doesn't end up with a double bladed lightsaber, J.J. is dead to me.

Dec 19, 2015#52

Dei

OH, also, I know it's fake science and all, but the giant space laser would have way cooler if it had been a Dyson sphere instead.

Do we know for sure Finn is not force sensitive also? Sure Kylo Ren was probably just looking at him because he wasn't shooting people, but...

Dec 19, 2015#53

Sparhawk

Just got home from the movie, read some of the thread (will finish) and seen comments about Rey and Kylo.

Kylo is a scared and unsure young man, Rey an untested youth as well. From the comment I can see Kylo battling within himself about the light and the dark side of the force, "I won't let the light seduce me" is the line I think.

Rey getting good so fast with the lightsaber... she was using LOTS of anger, really tapped more into the dark than the light during the second half of the fight. Her expression was the tell on that.[DOUBLEPOST=1450574458,1450574154][/DOUBLEPOST]Adding...

Rey injured Kylo in the same way that it appears that Snoke is scarred, diagonally across the face.

Dec 19, 2015#54

Dei

Also, it's the first movie, I definitely saw Han's killing coming. Because Star Wars.

Dec 19, 2015#55

Dei

More spamming, I think Rei will kill Ren in the 2nd movie, and then in the third movie be talked down by Finn. I feel given time Ren could be redeemed but he's too much a petulant child to reach that point before someone kills him.

Dec 19, 2015#56

GasBandit

Dec 19, 2015#57

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:

Dec 19, 2015#58

IronBrig4

I thoroughly enjoyed it and want to see it again. Midichlorians, Jar-Jar Binks, trade negotiations, and Jake Lloyd's Anakin have joined Scrappy Doo on the island of pop culture items we can completely forget about.

- Now that the Resistance has official backing and is a legitimate power, you'd think they could upgrade their fighter pool. They're still using X-wings from the previous generation. That would be like the US Air Force still relying on F-4 Phantoms.

- When Kylo Ren revealed himself, my first thought was, "he probably gets his clothes from Hot Topic."

- You know that stormtrooper who talks back to Rey before being mind controlled? That's none other than Daniel Craig. http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/17/daniel-craig-makes-cameo-star-wars-force-awakens

Dec 19, 2015#59

Hailey Knight

IronBrig4 said:
- Now that the Resistance has official backing and is a legitimate power

Well, they were for the first half of the movie.

Dec 19, 2015#60

ThatNickGuy

That's one thing I don't get it. How can it be a resistance if the Republic is in power and supports it? It seems like The First Order is a renegade group.

Dec 19, 2015#61

Charlie Don't Surf

I just remembered how godawful the final shot of the movie was. That sort of cheap helicopter tracking shot is something straight out of a CBS Season Finale. TV shit. Bush league, C'mon JJ, you're better than that. This is a Star Wars movie. This ain't your Alias reboot*

*YOU KNOW IT'S COMING

Dec 20, 2015#62

GasBandit

IronBrig4 said:
- Now that the Resistance has official backing and is a legitimate power, you'd think they could upgrade their fighter pool. They're still using X-wings from the previous generation. That would be like the US Air Force still relying on F-4 Phantoms.

Actually there are subtle differences in the engine structure and profile that show these are not exactly the same X-wings as 30 years ago. A quick search on wookieepedia also confirms these are a newer version, designated T-70 instead of T-65B. The most notable visual difference is in the engine "intakes" on the wings and the sharper nose cowling, but another obvious difference is the T-65s did not have a point defense blaster turret for antipersonnel defense while grounded.

Dec 20, 2015#63

drawn_inward

It was a love-letter to the the OT, and I am totally fine with that. It's what I wanted the prequels to be - new characters that echo the OT.

I found the new characters a bit more compelling than the old cast, which I am sure that is exactly what Disney wanted.

I got a little misty-eyed when they showed Chewie after Han's death. I kind of wish they would have showed Chewie grieving a bit more, but that's about how much time Luke grieved over Obi-Wan.

The humor was fantastic, and there were so many chuckle moments. I think I laughed the loudest at Chewbacca's "girlfriend" and nurse.

BB-8 was cool. I found it to be slightly gimmicky in the trailer, but ended up liking it and forgot about R2. I am looking forward to their interaction in future films.

My gripes are super minor.
-I thought Harrison Ford's acting was the weakest of the bunch. It wasn't awful, just weaker. Having said that,
-I didn't like seeing that dude from Heroes. I think he's a weak actor. He didn't have much to do here so that was fine.
-Snoke's name threw me off. I didn't know what they were saying. Also, I know he's a hologram, but I thought he looked too CGI'd to me.

I was expecting to dislike the whole movie. I kept telling myself that it's just ok until 1/2 way through, and then I let go out that and had a huge grin on my face for the remainder of the film.

I will make an effort to catch this in the theater again (which is a big deal when you have two kids under two).

Dec 20, 2015#64

blotsfan

ThatNickGuy said:
That's one thing I don't get it. How can it be a resistance if the Republic is in power and supports it? It seems like The First Order is a renegade group.

My impression is that the Galaxy is split between the Republic and the First Order, with an uneasy peace between the two. While the Resistance is openly fighting the First Order with secret help from the Republic.

Dec 20, 2015#65

Mathias

GasBandit said:
When Kylo Ren first took his helmet off, I was massively disappointed. But as the movie progressed, I began to understand... this is not a Sith master, this is not a Darth Vader or General Grievous or even a Darth Maul... this is a scared, confused little boy trying to fill what he imagines to be the shoes of his grandfather, and led astray by Snoke (who, I think it is important to note, is also not referred to as "Darth" even once). This is further reinforced by his tendency to lash out in fits of frustration (ex: trashing the control console with his saber when receiving word of the escaping droid). It made his murder of his father all the more wrenching - it was his moral event horizon.

Also the saber crossguards are still stupid

100% with you on this. And I loved the direction Abrams took with the character. You get a feel for exactly why he was seduced to the Dark Side - he regards himself as the grandson of one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, and his lack of ability (perhaps compared to the rest of the Jedi he trained with) and focus made him fearful of living up to that image. Being the son of a non-Jedi (Solo) deepens that fear, and plays a big part in killing his father.

Dec 20, 2015#66

Bubble181

Haven't seen the movie yet, but since some of the main "spoiler" things were already spoiled for me anyway, I figured, eh, now I want to know the rest as well and read this thread. Oh well.
Anyway, I obviously don't know if it's mentioned or referenced or whatever, but if we already have Vader's grandson...Why could't the other be Palpatine's granddaughter? Having someone from that line be the one to give redemption and so on could be a nice mirror and hammer home the whole "it's your own choices that matter, no matter who your father is, you can be good" motif Luke had going on as well.

Dec 20, 2015#67

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
Haven't seen the movie yet, but since some of the main "spoiler" things were already spoiled for me anyway, I figured, eh, now I want to know the rest as well and read this thread. Oh well.
Anyway, I obviously don't know if it's mentioned or referenced or whatever, but if we already have Vader's grandson...Why could't the other be Palpatine's granddaughter? Having someone from that line be the one to give redemption and so on could be a nice mirror and hammer home the whole "it's your own choices that matter, no matter who your father is, you can be good" motif Luke had going on as well.

Rey has a very clear vision of Vader and Luke's history, combined with glimpses of her own past, when she first touches Anakin's/Luke's saber, so it's heavily implied she's tied with them somehow.

Dec 20, 2015#68

Charlie Don't Surf

Ravenpoe said:
Rey has a very clear vision of Vader and Luke's history, combined with glimpses of her own past, when she first touches Anakin's/Luke's saber, so it's heavily implied she's tied with them somehow.

or it could be that that exact lightsaber was present during some of the most dramatic moments for Luke and Anakin

Dec 20, 2015#69

Ravenpoe

Charlie Don't Surf said:
or it could be that that exact lightsaber was present during some of the most dramatic moments for Luke and Anakin

It very well could be. It could be she was feeling its history, but then she also sees Kylo in that vision, and he has never been near it (that we know of, though he did immediately recognize it)

Dec 20, 2015#70

Mathias

GasBandit said:
Well, he does look like a complete and utter goober without the helmet. That's why I was so disappointed at first. I was like "Oh man, they need to fire their casting director" but the longer the movie ran, the more it made sense to me.

I think it uses half a sun to fire. But your point about it not moving is a valid one. Although, I guess they only needed to use it twice - once to destroy the New Republic governmental seat, and once more to destroy the Resistance base.

First thing I thought was, "Is that the love child of Zach Braff and Professor Snape?"[DOUBLEPOST=1450631611,1450631311][/DOUBLEPOST]

Zero Esc said:
Or Han Solo now, ehhhh? Threw that guy to the tentacle monster--I feel like that happened as a purposeful "fuck you" to the whole "Han Solo is a murderer if he shoots Greedo first" thing. I laughed.

Loved the movie. Emotions--I had feelings! The characters had feelings! They were people! Real sets! Real acting! Real directing!

OH GOD THIS!!! JJ Abrams, unlike George Lucas, knows how to "show don't tell" a story. I actually give a shit about these characters and their plight. You're not told that Rey and Fin have a budding friendship/relationship, unlike the bullshit forced down your throat between Anakin and Padme.

Dec 20, 2015#71

Ravenpoe

Another thing I thought of, "the force awakens" refers to Rey, when Kylo did the mind meld with her, something happened that awakened her power. Even Snoke can feel it, saying there's been an awakening.

What if Rey's natural ability isn't from absorbing some of Kylo's knowledge, but is because she is the reincarnation of a past Jedi. She could be the reincarnation of Obi Wan, or if she does turn out to be Luke's daughter, could be the reincarnation of Anakin. That would lead to some pretty interesting plot points, with Kylo squaring off against the return of the very person he idolizes, and Luke again trying to redeem his father by training her. I mean, it worked in Legend of Korra.

Dec 20, 2015#72

Mathias

Ravenpoe said:
Rey has a very clear vision of Vader and Luke's history, combined with glimpses of her own past, when she first touches Anakin's/Luke's saber, so it's heavily implied she's tied with them somehow.

They way I took it is she's super dooper force sensitive, and being sensitive to the force she was able to pick up on the history that's associated with that saber. Kinda sorta analogous to the physical areas the emanate Dark Force, and the visions they show (Luke's cave on Dagobah).

Dec 20, 2015#73

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
or it could be that that exact lightsaber was present during some of the most dramatic moments for Luke and Anakin

This is a good point, because recycling litesabers isn't how things are supposed to go. A Jedi is supposed to make their own litesaber, but in this series we've had Luke carrying Anakin's baggage, and now Rei is carrying both of theirs.

Hopefully in the next movie she'll get to make her own.[DOUBLEPOST=1450637241,1450637121][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ravenpoe said:
Another thing I thought of, "the force awakens" refers to Rey, when Kylo did the mind meld with her, something happened that awakened her power. Even Snoke can feel it, saying there's been an awakening.

What if Rey's natural ability isn't from absorbing some of Kylo's knowledge, but is because she is the reincarnation of a past Jedi. She could be the reincarnation of Obi Wan, or if she does turn out to be Luke's daughter, could be the reincarnation of Anakin. That would lead to some pretty interesting plot points, with Kylo squaring off against the return of the very person he idolizes, and Luke again trying to redeem his father by training her. I mean, it worked in Legend of Korra.

Is reincarnation a thing in Star Wars? Having not read much of the EU, the only afterlife stuff I'm familiar with is Jedi ghosts.

Dec 20, 2015#74

Celt Z

Just got back from SW and I'm soooooo happy. For one thing, they finally remembered to include women in Star Wars! Not just Rey and Leia, but as pilots, in the First Order, in the Resistance...even if they didn't talk a lot, it was something that was hard for a life-long female Star Wars fan and this was a great change. And speaking of Rey, I would love her to be Luke's kid, although since they're hinting so strongly in that direction, I wouldn't be shocked if it's misdirection. But before the EU, Rey was everything the little girl in me wanted. If we couldn't be Princess Leia when we were playing "make-believe" as kid, Rey is a dream come true.

For me, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford KILLED it in every scene they were together. So much emotion in such short conversations.

I knew Kylo Ren (Or as Mr. Z calls him, "Darth Ben") was going to kill Han as soon as Han went after him. Dammit. But it does explain why Ford was willing to come back.

I'm hoping we get more from General Phasma. She's already said more than Boba Fett did in 3 movies, and everyone loved him. :rolleyes:

(I'm honestly more disappointed in Darth Maul than General Phasma.)

I like a lot of the speculation on here about why the Ren/Rey Force battle went the way it did, and if I can add my own theory: we don't know what happened with Rey before she was left on Jakku, but obviously she wasn't a baby and from the looks of it, she was in contact with Luke (even if she didn't know who he was). Whether she's Luke's daughter, or he found her because he felt her Force-sensitivity, it's possible he was already training her without her knowing. As stupid as this might sound, if you remember Mr. Miyagi teaching Daniel basics of karate when he was washing cars, you never know if Luke was telling her how to control her emotions without her realizing why he was doing it. Also, if Luke was hiding himself because he realized how important he was as the remaining Jedi, it would make a little sense that he wouldn't want to drag a child into hiding, too. Given what happened to Ren, and Luke feels guilty he wasn't able to prevent that, he may not have wanted Snoke to get his hands on Rey, too.

EDIT: Almost forgot! I loved Finn! I thought he was something the Prequels were missing that the OT had: humor.

Dec 20, 2015#75

Ravenpoe

Zero Esc said:
Is reincarnation a thing in Star Wars? Having not read much of the EU, the only afterlife stuff I'm familiar with is Jedi ghosts.

It's a thing if they want it to be.

Dec 20, 2015#76

Covar

The Good:

The new characters. They were all surprisingly well developed and not just rehashes of the original cast, even if they were filling some of the same roles.
Kylo Ren's unfinished arc. I thought it was well done, and that Abrams did a great job demonstrating his lack of control/anger
Entirely new planets.
No
Trash-can droid showed up twice.
Storm troopers backing away when Kylo Ren started one of his tantrums

The Bad:

It felt like 2 scripts were merged together. I felt like the Star Killer Planet thing was ill-defined and just kind of thrown in there because they realized the search for Luke wasn't going to make for a satisfying movie by itself.
The First Order and the Republic approved Resistence makes absolutely zero sense.

& The Ugly:

There were some weird internal inconsistencies. Like showing us exactly how to turn on the light saber, then having Rey turn it on with her hand nowhere near the button. (I know, I know, the force. But that's just an excuse).
Why wouldn't you just build multiple Death Stars? They're much smaller, more efficient, and portable.

Dec 20, 2015#77

Celt Z

Covar said:
Why wouldn't you just build multiple Death Stars? They're much smaller, more efficient, and portable.

I thought this was going to be a plot point and was surprised when it wasn't. You'd think by now they'd know to have multiple battle stations so if they lose one they're not screwed. I guess First Order funds aren't as high as we thought.

Dec 20, 2015#78

Adam

I think as a modern Star Wars it worked really well. The use of 3D in many cases was awe inspiring and something SW nerds have been looking forward to since 3D was invented.

The acting and humour was solid across all actors, there was not one cringe worthy moment among any of the real actors. The CGI characters like the orange thing and Snoke varied between decent and 'Why couldn't they have used a real person instead?'

My largest issue coming out of the movie was it being a complete retread of Episode 4. Abrams is so cautious in his movie making, especially ST and SW, that he hews a little too closely to established tropes. It'll be interesting to see how closely Ep 4 and Ep 7 align when played right next to each other; from the beginnings on a sand planet all the way to EXTREEEEM DEATH STAR-KILLER BASE.

Gf enjoyed it immensely which I saw as indicative of its broad demographic appeal.

Dec 20, 2015#79

blotsfan

Covar said:
Why wouldn't you just build multiple Death Stars? They're much smaller, more efficient, and portable.

Maybe I'm brainwashed, but I could've sworn they said in the movie that it could move to another star.

Dec 20, 2015#80

Hailey Knight

A moment I liked: Fin giving BB-8 a thumbs up and BB-8 flashing back with a lighter. It happened so fast and the scene didn't pause that you could blink and miss it, but it got a big laugh.

Dec 20, 2015#81

blotsfan

I thought BB-8 was there just enough to add some humor without being overdone and annoying.

Dec 20, 2015#82

Covar

Zero Esc said:
A moment I liked: Fin giving BB-8 a thumbs up and BB-8 flashing back with a lighter. It happened so fast and the scene didn't pause that you could blink and miss it, but it got a big laugh.

It was right after Finn's deadpan "Droid, please." I loved all the interactions between Finn, Rey, and BB-8. I wish Abrams had spent as much time setting up that planet thing as he did Kylo Ren.

Dec 20, 2015#83

IronBrig4

Celt Z said:
I thought this was going to be a plot point and was surprised when it wasn't. You'd think by now they'd know to have multiple battle stations so if they lose one they're not screwed. I guess First Order funds aren't as high as we thought.

The loss of even a single Death Star should have triggered a galaxy-wide economic collapse.

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-on-financial-impact-of-star-wars-death-star-2015-12

Dec 20, 2015#84

GasBandit

Dec 20, 2015#85

Mathias

Did the Starkiller weapon destroy Coruscant?

Dec 20, 2015#86

Bowielee

Went to see it. LOVED it.

A few things, R2-D2 being dormant until that end scene was built in from the beginning of the film, I got the impression that the scene that was a flashback to Kylo Ren turning on the Jedi was specifically to show Luke doing, well, something to R2. I feel like it was completely intentional that he reactivate when he did, when the "force awoke" in Rey. You'll also notice that at the end of Rey's lightsaber flash, Luke said "it's time , come find me" or something to that effect.

He's been biding his time and gathering his power. Also, who else could have created a map to Luke other than Luke?

Dec 20, 2015#87

Hailey Knight

Mathias said:
Did the Starkiller weapon destroy Coruscant?

That's what it looked like to me.

Dec 20, 2015#88

Terrik

Zero Esc said:
That's what it looked like to me.

Don't think so. They mentioned the name of the system that was destroyed and it wasn't Coruscant.

Dec 20, 2015#89

Hailey Knight

Terrik said:
Don't think so. They mentioned the name of the system that was destroyed and it wasn't Coruscant.

Did they? I heard the Resistance system and Order systems named, but not the Republic's system. Plus, I thought Coruscant was the planet, not the system, though I'm sure somewhere Corscant's system name is documented.

Dec 20, 2015#90

Terrik

Zero Esc said:
Did they? I heard the Resistance system and Order systems named, but not the Republic's system. Plus, I thought Coruscant was the planet, not the system, though I'm sure somewhere Corscant's system name is documented.

I think it started with an N or an H.... ah I found it:

" General Hux ordered the base to fire on the capital of the New Republic, Hosnian Prime, and four other planets in the Hosnian system, utterly destroying the planets and the New Republic's fleet."

And

"The Hosnian system was a star system in the Core Worlds that was under the control of the New Republic thirty years after the Battle of Endor. The capital planet of the system, Hosnian Prime,[1] and four other planets were destroyed by the First Order's Starkiller Base.[2]The system was home to the Republic's new capital,[1] and hosted its fleets, all of which were destroyed upon the firing of the Starkiller superweapon, leaving the Resistance without the aid of its primary official backer. The destruction of the system was witnessed by all those at Maz Kanata's castle, on Takodana, and Finn immediately informed the others that it was the doing of the First Order"

Dec 20, 2015#91

Hailey Knight

Got it.

Elsewhere online, people are starting shit over whether that destruction could be seen from Takodana. :rolleyes:

Dec 20, 2015#92

bhamv3

Sort of like whether Vulcan's destruction could be seen from that planet Spock and Kirk were on!

Dec 20, 2015#93

blotsfan

It also couldn't be Coruscant because thats from the prequels and JJ really wants you to forget those existed.

Dec 20, 2015#94

Hailey Knight

blotsfan said:
It also couldn't be Coruscant because thats from the prequels and JJ really wants you to forget those existed.

Has he said that or are people just speculating that?

Dec 20, 2015#95

blotsfan

Thats purely my speculation.

Though it was pretty clear that this movie from marketing to the finished product was a big apology for the prequels.

Dec 20, 2015#96

ThatNickGuy

Max Landis can be a pretentious, boisterous prick sometimes, but he does raise some good points here.

Dec 20, 2015#97

Ravenpoe

Mathias said:
Did the Starkiller weapon destroy Coruscant?

No, but basically yes. The planet that was destroyed is the new seat of the galactic senate, so it now serves the same purpose as Coruscant.

Or, you know, did...

Dec 20, 2015#98

Celt Z

ThatNickGuy said:
Max Landis can be a pretentious, boisterous prick sometimes, but he does raise some good points here.

I couldn't finish the video after he stated the crux of is argument is he doesn't know what the term "Mary Sue" means. I also have no idea who this guy is.

However, it did explain why I saw a bombardment of tweets elsewhere complaining about the misuse of "Mary Sue", so mystery solved!

Dec 20, 2015#99

Bowielee

ThatNickGuy said:
Max Landis can be a pretentious, boisterous prick sometimes, but he does raise some good points here.

Ironic coming from the biggest fan of the biggest Gary Stu of all time

I just think that the idea that Mary Sue characters are always horrible is stupid to begin with.

Dec 20, 2015#100

Ravenpoe

ThatNickGuy said:
Max Landis can be a pretentious, boisterous prick sometimes, but he does raise some good points here.

I like Max Landis, but I disagree with this video.

Is Rey good at everything? Yeah, but I'm ok with that. I mentioned that all of the lightsaber fights in the prequels were just dumb fights, and all of the fights in the originals were always something else going on. In this movie, that battle was more than just a battle. Rey was discovering her power, finding out what she can do, stretching her limits. Her opposite, Kylo, is discovering his limitations for the first time. Rey had never known what it was like to be powerful before, and Kylo had never known what it was like to face someone that could oppose him, having become so used to being the only space wizard around. It was a defining moment for both of them.

Dec 20, 2015#101

ThatNickGuy

Celt Z said:
I couldn't finish the video after he stated the crux of is argument is he doesn't know what the term "Mary Sue" means. I also have no idea who this guy is.

However, it did explain why I saw a bombardment of tweets elsewhere complaining about the misuse of "Mary Sue", so mystery solved!

Honestly, I don't even know what the proper term is. I was under the impression it was a character who was the best at everything over everyone else and was pretty much perfect. Batman's been called a Mary Sue, for example. And I mean, going by that definition, he has a point: Rey is amazing at several things, like suddenly piloting the Millennium Falcon or even knowing how to repair it better than Han Solo, etc.

Seems like even TV Trops can't even come to a decision on what a Mary Sue is:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Dec 20, 2015#102

blotsfan

I mean, she said she had worked on the Falcon a lot before, and using the force to help with flying is nothing new (Luke and Anakin being examples).

Dec 20, 2015#103

Celt Z

The Star Wars universe has it's share of flaws, but it's a strange argument to make, considering she didn't do anything Luke or Anakin didn't do previously. She proved to be a competent pilot (Poe was considered the best), but she had knowledge of the Falcon and spent a good chunk of her life working with mechanics. She seemed to grasp parts of the Force pretty quickly, but so did Luke after, what, 24 hours with Obi-wan? As I've stated above, we still don't know if she ever had Force training before, but we'll see. As for her fight with Ren, Ren's pretty young as well, so even if he's had training, it may not have been for that long. We've had two trilogies that have established it isn't unusual for a (lead) character to have these traits, so why is it a problem when Rey does?

Dec 20, 2015#104

Hailey Knight

You think Max Landis would be looking at it this way if she was a he?

Dec 20, 2015#105

Celt Z

I know nothing about Max Landis, so I can't say. I think it's fair someone to say "I have a problem with Star Wars because everything seems to come easily to the lead", but I think there's more at play when someone has a problem with Rey doing it, but not Anakin or Luke.

Dec 20, 2015#106

strawman

Some people are simply not going to like the movie, and, being human, they will attempt to justify their dislike. When a movie is good or great, then they can only pick nits.

That seems to be what this Landis person is doing.

It's too bad they didn't like it. Fortunately they can choose whether to watch it again or not.

For my part, I thought the lead's actions and abilities were very comparable to Luke's and anakin's in their time. More comparable to anakin's because he wasn't whiny, like Luke. Luke was whiny like Kylo.

Which, honestly, foreshadows the distinct possibility that Rey will go to the dark side.

Which would drive all sorts of people crazy.

Dec 20, 2015#107

Yoshimickster

I go by the classical definition:

Based on the main character, best at everything, ruins the plot.

Dec 21, 2015#108

GasBandit

Mary Sue characters tend to be good at everything and beloved by everyone instantly, but that's not what defines them - I think that's where Max's confusion lies.

Anyway, went to see it again with my friends today. Saw it in IMAX-3D, it gave me a headache. Several of the scenes that looked "odd" in 2D now made sense to me becase they were shot "that way" explicitly for the "ooh pretty" factor in 3D IMAX. Especially the takeoff/landing shots and the closing scene with the helicam circling Rey and Luke.

I didn't really pick up on anything else new or noteworthy in the second viewing, and stand by my assertion that it's a 3 star movie, better than the prequels but not as good as the original trilogy.

Dec 21, 2015#109

Frank

It had two moments directly from Abram's Star Trek.

The seeing the destruction from somewhere you couldn't possibly see it.

And the Kirk finding old Spock moment of Han and Chewie literally just happening to be nearby enough to pick them up immediately after they take off from Jakku.

Dec 22, 2015#110

sixpackshaker

I think the biggest spoiler is that I paid $3.00 to see it, but a large coke and popcorn cost $5.50. Damn these high prices.

Dec 22, 2015#111

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
I think the biggest spoiler is that I paid $3.00 to see it, but a large coke and popcorn cost $5.50. Damn these high prices.

Hah, when I first went to see it on thursday night, the ticket was 3.50, but I ate at the in-theater restaurant... two tasty but tiny sliders, fries, and a coors light for 14 bucks.

Dec 22, 2015#112

Bowielee

Huh... Sunday Matinee 8 for tickets 5 for parcking, 9 for popcorn and a soda.

Dec 22, 2015#113

Piotyr

Frank said:
It had two moments directly from Abram's Star Trek.

The seeing the destruction from somewhere you couldn't possibly see it.

And the Kirk finding old Spock moment of Han and Chewie literally just happening to be nearby enough to pick them up immediately after they take off from Jakku.

Han specifically mentioned he tracked them easily the second they took off from Jakku, because he was specifically looking for the Millenium Falcon.

Dec 23, 2015#114

redthirtyone

General Specific said:
Also, the two troopers that turned back and walked away when Kylo found the empty chair.

I felt they could have played this up for humor more, but then it would have come off looking like a Robot Chicken bit.

Dec 23, 2015#115

Null

Zero Esc said:
You think Max Landis would be looking at it this way if she was a he?

Not remotely. Mind you, Max Landis was the one who said that "Audiences don't like original stories anymore" about the failure of American Ultra, which was about an amnesiac assassin. The original part? He smokes weed and works in a convenience store, I guess. So obviously he's a fucking idiot.

I loved Star Wars VII and can't wait to see it again.

Dec 23, 2015#116

Frank

Well, Star Wars 7 is about as original as a new Chipmunks album so he's not wrong there.

Dec 23, 2015#117

Hailey Knight

Null said:
Not remotely. Mind you, Max Landis was the one who said that "Audiences don't like original stories anymore" about the failure of American Ultra, which was about an amnesiac assassin. The original part? He smokes weed and works in a convenience store, I guess. So obviously he's a fucking idiot.

I loved Star Wars VII and can't wait to see it again.

He should probably stick to critiquing comic books.

I asked that question because, as others have said, that critique of Rey could be lobbed at Luke or Anakin as well, but no one bats an eye when they're good at everything. Thing is, Rey's troubles are in the same field as Luke's and Anakin's--emotions. And if she's a Force-sensitive, that makes sense, because it's in the emotions that things get so screwed up for the Jedi, whether they're denying them or following them the wrong way. We saw it with Anakin, albeit in shitty movies, and we saw it with Luke as he struggled in Empire and Return. Others have mentioned that in the duel with Kylo Ren, we see hints of the dark side in her. Kylo Ren may not be the only one struggling with the two sides of the Force in the next couple movies.[DOUBLEPOST=1450870559,1450870031][/DOUBLEPOST]

Frank said:
Well, Star Wars 7 is about as original as a new Chipmunks album so he's not wrong there.

When it comes to American Ultra, I can't speak for everyone, but while it doesn't sound much more original than Star Wars, that isn't why I didn't see it. I didn't see it because it sounded like a dumb stoner comedy and I have no interest in those.

I see he wrote Victor Frankenstein's script that came out last month and has only made $5 million in the U.S. Watching the trailer before Crimson Peak, I'm guessing it cost a lot more than $5 million for all the CGI + Daniel Radcliffe.

Dec 23, 2015#118

Frank

Here's my random thoughts on the movie and I didn't dislike it, I'll add up front, either, I did enjoy my time in the movie.

- I don't really like JJ Abrams' style as a director. Everything goes at such a breakneck pace that little seems to matter. He mimics stuff from earlier films (seen in such movies as Star Trek, Star Trek Into Darkness and Star Wars: Episode 7: the Force Awakens) without getting how to make the stuff he mimics matter. I felt none of the tension of when the Death Star was rounding Yavin 4 to take out the rebel base when they were doing a similar countdown of the Star Killer about to blast the new rebel base.

- I really liked the new characters (with a couple of exceptions). Rey is great, Finn is great and I even liked Kylo Ren. I loved that he is a scared, conflicted character full of doubt. We may get a villain that grows as a character as well as the heroes, which is bloody fucking rare in big budget blockbuster filmmaking. Poe was kind of a non-factor since he disappears so quick and doesn't really matter later but I still liked him. Hopefully he get's some more screentime in later films and doesn't just end up as a Wedge with slightly more lines. BB-8 is a wonderfully perfect marketing machine. He's adorable, has great moments and is about as perfect a symbol as you could get for the new movies.

- The character I didn't like was admiral barely legal. You'd think there'd be SOMEONE with experience in charge of stuff in the First Order. Someone with some gravitas when he gives that big old nazi speech. I was bummed when he didn't die because we'll have to see more of him later. He sucked.

- Characters that got nothing from me are Darth Voldemort and Captain Phasma. She betrayed the First Order MIGHTY quickly for being so apparently diehard. That just may be due to Abrams' pace. Otherwise she did almost nothing in the movie other than be a new toy to sell. Big hologram guy though has maybe the worst name ever created in Star Wars and this is a God damn series that has a character named Sleazebagano.

- All that said I still had a decent time.

[DOUBLEPOST=1450870997,1450870931][/DOUBLEPOST]

Zero Esc said:
When it comes to American Ultra, I can't speak for everyone, but while it doesn't sound much more original than Star Wars, that isn't why I didn't see it. I didn't see it because it sounded like a dumb stoner comedy and I have no interest in those.

I see he wrote Victor Frankenstein's script that came out last month and has only made $5 million in the U.S. Watching the trailer before Crimson Peak, I'm guessing it cost a lot more than $5 million for all the CGI + Daniel Radcliffe.

I don't disagree that American Ultra sucked or anything, I just kind of agree with him on the originality thing. Almost everything that makes tons of money has zero originality in it.

Dec 23, 2015#119

Celt Z

Frank said:
- I don't really like JJ Abrams' style as a director. Everything goes at such a breakneck pace that little seems to matter...I felt none of the tension of when the Death Star was rounding Yavin 4 to take out the rebel base when they were doing a similar countdown of the Star Killer about to blast the new rebel base.

I definitely agree with you on this. Of all the plot points, this one felt the least developed to me. I think this could even cover your criticism of Poe and General...I can't even remember his name right now.

Dec 23, 2015#120

Frank

I REALLY hope the obvious fingers pointing at Luke being Rey's father are just trickery and smoke and mirrors. I hope the force is like, ok, I've given these fucking Skywalkers enough chances.

I hope she really is a nobody (which would definitely fuel Kylo's legacy pathos) that comes from nothing.

Dec 23, 2015#121

evilmike

Dec 23, 2015#122

Piotyr

I couldn't find the right words to describe how I felt about the movie, but this review basically mirrors my feelings and excitement:

Dec 23, 2015#123

Hailey Knight

I disagree about the pacing, at least for the first third of the movie. It took its time with Rey and it was nice to have some quiet amid the derelict hulks of the Empire.

I do agree that the Star Killer countdown had nothing on the Death Star countdown, but very few movies have a climax of the same caliber as the original Star Wars, including any of the other movies in the series. I still get amped up for that finale.

Dec 23, 2015#124

fade

I just got back.

I enjoyed it enough. The direction was a little too Abrams-y for my taste. The biggest problem the movie had was that it copied A New Hope too much. Too many parallels. A few are good, but too many are not. I did appreciate the easter eggs, like the breather masks being in exactly the same place, and Han landing uncomfortably on the training remote.

Dec 23, 2015#125

Frank

Dec 23, 2015#126

GasBandit

Frank said:

Reading the twitter conversation string under that post gave me Tumblr-Cancr.

Dec 23, 2015#127

Frank

I just saw that as a retweet and it made me chuckle. Care not I about random comments.

Dec 23, 2015#128

jwhouk

And now, I can post in the cool kids thread. Reactions in somewhat random order:

First thought when the credits rolled: Welp, I guess I'm going to have to go see VIII when it comes out.

Now we know two things:
1. Why Mark Hamill wasn't on the poster. (When you don't appear until LITERALLY the last 30 seconds of the movie...)
2. Why Harrison Ford was so happy about promoting this movie. (His character dies. He doesn't have to play Han any more unless he wants to.)

All the little homages to the original trilogy - and bits of the prequels as well - were awesome.

Ben Solo (aka Kylo Ren) - that's almost along the same lines as Tom Marvolo Riddle. And I fully approve.

That big boss is going to be hell to try to fight, once Rey and Finn get there.

I got that tingly feeling when I saw the crawl. I'll be honest. (Wife jumped when the crescendo sounded and STAR WARS appeared on the screen - which had me laughing.)

I'm calling it now: Rey is Luke's daughter.

Wife's take: "I really feel for Chewie."

The whole "Ben Solo blew up the Jedi Academy" thing - that's gonna come up in the future, I just know it.

It was just all the little things - Finn tossing aside the practice orb, the "flashback" scenes in the cantina's basement, the way Hamill flipped his hood back, just like Sir Alec Guinness did in the original movie. They all made it feel like, this is Star Wars.

Next two episodes are going to be hard to top this one.

Dec 23, 2015#129

Charlie Don't Surf

My favorite part about Star Wars is that every character is gay

Dec 23, 2015#130

fade

Rey as Luke's daughter almost seems too obvious. But then again, it's yet another homage to the original. I just felt like while that stuff was fun, there was just too much of it.

Dec 24, 2015#131

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
My favorite part about Star Wars is that every character is gay

Well, except for the two seniors who sired the antagonist.

Dec 24, 2015#132

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
Well, except for the two seniors who sired the antagonist.

having heterosexual sex once doesn't make you straight imo

Dec 24, 2015#133

Hailey Knight

Rey's father is Chewbacca.

Dec 24, 2015#134

fade

Rey is Chewbacca.

Dec 24, 2015#135

bhamv3

Rey chews bacta.

Dec 24, 2015#136

fade

One minor negative: I did not like the ragged edges on all the sabers and blaster bolts. They were unnecessary and added little.

Dec 24, 2015#137

Frank

fade said:
One minor negative: I did not like the ragged edges on all the sabers and blaster bolts. They were unnecessary and added little.

Kylo's was a lot more jagged than Luke/Anakin's but yeah, I totally agree.

Dec 24, 2015#138

General Specific

I thought Kylo's ragged saber was a reflection of himself. Not to get too poetic about it. But it shows that he is inexperienced and unrefined. He does not yet have all the pieces in place to build a proper saber.

Also, I agree with whomever it was on the first page that said they were playing this movie extremely safe. After the debacle that was the prequels, they wanted to make sure this one pleased the fans. I think they have done that and so I hope the next ones will branch out a bit more and have more originality and more of the "Star Wars" feel to it.

Dec 24, 2015#139

BErt

General Specific said:
I thought Kylo's ragged saber was a reflection of himself. Not to get too poetic about it. But it shows that he is inexperienced and unrefined. He does not yet have all the pieces in place to build a proper saber

I agree with this completely. I thought they intentionally showed how his was ragged compared to the Luke/Anakin saber to reflect this.

Dec 24, 2015#140

fade

I can't figure out if Finn is supposed to be force sensitive though. Ren was aware of his defection beforehand, he was unusually good at targeting despite being a janitor, and he could use a light saber. And then there's the unusual nature of his breaking programming.

Dec 24, 2015#141

Ravenpoe

fade said:
I can't figure out if Finn is supposed to be force sensitive though. Ren was aware of his defection beforehand, he was unusually good at targeting despite being a janitor, and he could use a light saber. And then there's the unusual nature of his breaking programming.

Even though he was in sanitation (Clerks Reference?) he was still a trained Storm Trooper, so I'm sure he was trained in the use of a blaster rifle. And we saw that many troopers also got training in melee weapons. You don't -need- the force to hold a lightsaber, it just really helps in not chopping your own limbs off.

Dec 24, 2015#142

jwhouk

I just had a thought. @Ravenpoe, you know there are going to be people who now think your nick is because of the movie...

And then it suddenly hit me that there was an inside joke about Poe's X-Wing... Want to bet its call sign is R-VNN?

Dec 24, 2015#143

blotsfan

I don't think Darth Revan is canon anymore.

Dec 24, 2015#144

Ravenpoe

jwhouk said:
I just had a thought. @Ravenpoe, you know there are going to be people who now think your nick is because of the movie...

And then it suddenly hit me that there was an inside joke about Poe's X-Wing... Want to bet its call sign is R-VNN?

What I'm hearing is I need to cut Oscar Isaac's head off...

Dec 24, 2015#145

GasBandit

fade said:
I can't figure out if Finn is supposed to be force sensitive though. Ren was aware of his defection beforehand, he was unusually good at targeting despite being a janitor, and he could use a light saber. And then there's the unusual nature of his breaking programming.

He's not. And he's not just a janitor, he's a full fledged stormtrooper, with combat training and everything. There's supplemental canonical material that covers stuff leading up to the movie.

Using a lightsaber isn't hard. Even Han Solo figured it out pretty quick when he needed to cut open a Tan-tan.

Dec 24, 2015#146

bhamv3

GasBandit said:
He's not. And he's not just a janitor, he's a full fledged stormtrooper, with combat training and everything. There's supplemental canonical material that covers stuff leading up to the movie.

Using a lightsaber isn't hard. Even Han Solo figured it out pretty quick when he needed to cut open a Tan-tan.

Tauntaun.

And Han only needed to make one, slow horizontal slice. Not quite the same as wielding a lightsaber in combat.

Not sure if it's canon any more, but the old explanation was that the blade of the lightsaber is weightless, and the magnetic sheath that enclosed the plasma inside the lightsaber blade would create gyroscopic forces that would make the lightsaber move in counter-intuitive ways when you swung it. Picture it like you're swinging a misbehaving flashlight handle. Thus, if you don't have lots of training and Force-enhanced reactions, you'd likely cut yourself on the first swing.

Dec 24, 2015#147

GasBandit

bhamv3 said:
Tauntaun.

And Han only needed to make one, slow horizontal slice. Not quite the same as wielding a lightsaber in combat.

Not sure if it's canon any more, but the old explanation was that the blade of the lightsaber is weightless, and the magnetic sheath that enclosed the plasma inside the lightsaber blade would create gyroscopic forces that would make the lightsaber move in counter-intuitive ways when you swung it. Picture it like you're swinging a misbehaving flashlight handle. Thus, if you don't have lots of training and Force-enhanced reactions, you'd likely cut yourself on the first swing.

That's fanboy equivocation. The first time Luke was handed a light saber he had no trouble turning it on immediately and swinging it around like a kid would.

Dec 24, 2015#148

fade

Okay I get that he was a soldier trained in combat, but he seemed to have an intuitive knack for fighter controls on both the TIE fighter and the Falcon. And I don't mean that he turned on the saber and swung it around a little--he held his own in a fight against New Vader, even injuring him. And then there's clearly something different about his birth. And Mas (?) was pushing him toward the saber as if he should use it, and she seems to have some intuitive understanding of the Force.

Dec 24, 2015#149

GasBandit

fade said:
Okay I get that he was a soldier trained in combat, but he seemed to have an intuitive knack for fighter controls on both the TIE fighter and the Falcon. And I don't mean that he turned on the saber and swung it around a little--he held his own in a fight against New Vader, even injuring him. And then there's clearly something different about his birth. And Mas (?) was pushing him toward the saber as if he should use it, and she seems to have some intuitive understanding of the Force.

As we said earlier in the thread, this was really because Kylo Ren really isn't that good a force user, definitely not on the level of a Jedi Knight or Sith. He has the skillset of a sophomore padawan, and being in turmoil as he is hampers force ability (even the Sith push focus as power). On top of that, he had just taken a shot from a wookiee bowcaster to the midsection - which would normally be (and was repeatedly) fatal not only to anyone else who had been shot thusly, but often anyone standing nearby. So yes, Finn was able to briefly stave off the inevitable against a seriously injured and poorly trained force-sensitive, for a while. That doesn't make him a skywalker.

That said, the Force is everywhere, in everyone and everything. Yoda even described it as flowing through trees and rocks. If the force is awakening, maybe it's paying more attention to such things as this conflict?

Dec 24, 2015#150

fade

Yeah, I read that, but I find that difficult to swallow. He stopped a blaster bolt in mid air, and ripped into Poe's mind. That doesn't seem very sophomore.

Dec 24, 2015#151

jwhouk

Some things you learn quicker than others. Example: kid who's motivated to learn how to drive as opposed to boring history lessons.

Dec 25, 2015#152

Dave

Okay, I'm back after FINALLY being able to see this. Not being able to go to the in-laws for Christmas had this one single redeeming quality. Anyway, my thoughts.

I knew Han Solo was going to die as soon as Ben told the GIANT HOLOGRAM DUDE that he knew how to handle his father. Yes, I guessed it that soon. So it was not a surprise when it happened.
I thought the acting in this one was SO much better than any of the other ones. Even the original.
Parsecs are still a measure of distance, not time.
Ships still make no fucking noise in space! Ever since Firefly and Serenity this bugs me.
I hope Rey is not Luke's daughter but I think they are trying hard to make us think that.
Gasbandit has Ben's character down pat. Best explanation.
I hated the last shot. They should have ended as soon as Luke threw back his hood.
I snickered that the old characters got top billing in the credits. Mark Hamill's name was second and he was in the movie a grand total of like 20 seconds. I understand it, though.
Unlike R2-D2, I could actually almost understand what BB-8 was saying.
I love the fact that this was Fin's first mission. Had it not been I don't think he'd have so easily thrown off the yolk of First Order conditioning.
Yeah, the Chromed Captain turned really fucking fast. I don't quite get that.

On another note, I'm really, really glad that the cast was ethnically diverse. We had a black family with three or four little kids sitting behind us and they were excited to see Fin. Here's a black character that does the right thing because that's what heroes do. Yeah, he lied at first, but he came clean. He was smart, heroic, and not the villain. He did not die first, he did not talk street. He was just a guy doing the best he can. I think that portrayal doesn't get shown enough.

All in all I liked the movie. I thought it went by incredibly fast and it didn't seem like it was 2+ hours. The next two should be epic!

Dec 25, 2015#153

Frank

The Kessel run is through a swarm of black holes. Doing it in less distance is a measure of how fast and maneuverable the Falcon is.

Dec 25, 2015#154

bhamv3

Frank said:
The Kessel run is through a swarm of black holes. Doing it in less distance is a measure of how fast and maneuverable the Falcon is.

As well as the pilot's nerve and the quality of the navcomputer.

Dec 25, 2015#155

Ravenpoe

Dave said:
Okay, I'm back after FINALLY being able to see this. Not being able to go to the in-laws for Christmas had this one single redeeming quality. Anyway, my thoughts.

I knew Han Solo was going to die as soon as Ben told the GIANT HOLOGRAM DUDE that he knew how to handle his father. Yes, I guessed it that soon. So it was not a surprise when it happened.

I thought the acting in this one was SO much better than any of the other ones. Even the original.

Parsecs are still a measure of distance, not time.

Ships still make no fucking noise in space! Ever since Firefly and Serenity this bugs me.

I hope Rey is not Luke's daughter but I think they are trying hard to make us think that.

Gasbandit has Ben's character down pat. Best explanation.

I hated the last shot. They should have ended as soon as Luke threw back his hood.

I snickered that the old characters got top billing in the credits. Mark Hamill's name was second and he was in the movie a grand total of like 20 seconds. I understand it, though.

Unlike R2-D2, I could actually almost understand what BB-8 was saying.

I love the fact that this was Fin's first mission. Had it not been I don't think he'd have so easily thrown off the yolk of First Order conditioning.

Yeah, the Chromed Captain turned really fucking fast. I don't quite get that.

On another note, I'm really, really glad that the cast was ethnically diverse. We had a black family with three or four little kids sitting behind us and they were excited to see Fin. Here's a black character that does the right thing because that's what heroes do. Yeah, he lied at first, but he came clean. He was smart, heroic, and not the villain. He did not die first, he did not talk street. He was just a guy doing the best he can. I think that portrayal doesn't get shown enough.

All in all I liked the movie. I thought it went by incredibly fast and it didn't seem like it was 2+ hours. The next two should be epic!

As for noise in space, this is a fucking fantasy story about wizards and knights, not a sci-fi. Wanting scientific accuracy leads to shit like midichlorians.

Also, serenity had sound in space, because it was a movie and wanted to be exciting.

Dec 25, 2015#156

Hailey Knight

Applying science rules to Star Wars breaks so many things. It just doesn't work as sci-fi and honestly never has. It just takes sci-fi concepts and uses them in a fantasy story. It's a story about wizards in space.

And I don't think there's another movie series that does this, which may explain why people keep coming back even when they've been burned.

I love science fiction, but Star Wars isn't it.

Dec 25, 2015#157

GasBandit

All the fighters in space behave as if they are in atmospheric flight, remember. Their engines are all on the rear yet they make minor course adjustments without turning a full 90 degrees.

Dec 26, 2015#158

Dei

You know, I found myself wondering if Luke or Leia actually told Ben the story of Darth Vader, or if they didn't want him to know about how the dark side touched his family. A little bit of knowledge could have gone a long way here.

Dec 26, 2015#159

GasBandit

"Stop taking my hand!"

Dec 26, 2015#160

@Li3n

Dave said:
I hope Rey is not Luke's daughter but I think they are trying hard to make us think that.

My 1st idea was she's Vader's 3rd kid... now that would make Kylo Ren truly jealous.

What, even a cyborg has needs...[DOUBLEPOST=1451167113,1451167010][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
"Stop taking my hand!"

They way they're mixing it up.... i'm expecting Finn to be the one that loses a hand... while Rey gets frozen in carbonite.

Dec 26, 2015#161

Ravenpoe

@Li3n said:
My 1st idea was she's Vader's 3rd kid... now that would make Kylo Ren truly jealous.

What, even a cyborg has needs...

I know this was a joke, but just to point out along with the theory that she could be Palpatine's kid, Vader and Palpatine would have both died years before she was ever born.

Dec 26, 2015#162

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
"Stop taking my hand!"

Well, she already lost a Han in the first movie.

Eh? *nudge, nudge*, Ehhhhhh? Lost a Han?

Dec 26, 2015#163

@Li3n

Ravenpoe said:
I know this was a joke, but just to point out along with the theory that she could be Palpatine's kid, Vader and Palpatine would have both died years before she was ever born.

Pffft... good genes. Plus, Kylo looks like he's half her age.

Dec 26, 2015#164

@Li3n

fade said:
One minor negative: I did not like the ragged edges on all the sabers and blaster bolts. They were unnecessary and added little.

They should have just have it be a thing for Kylo's saber...

....
Oh, and was anyone else anoyed that the resistance fleet was just a bunch of X-Wing squadrons? You;d think they'd have their own fleet after a few decades (the First Order managed to build a superweapon in that time), or that the Republic would not keep all of their ships in one system...

Dec 26, 2015#165

Hailey Knight

Rey has a baby face too; no way she's Vader's baby unless they had his midichlorians encased in carbonite.

Dec 26, 2015#166

Terrik

@Li3n said:
They should have just have it be a thing for Kylo's saber...

....
Oh, and was anyone else anoyed that the resistance fleet was just a bunch of X-Wing squadrons? You;d think they'd have their own fleet after a few decades (the First Order managed to build a superweapon in that time), or that the Republic would not keep all of their ships in one system...

Yeah, maybe it was another one of those, "Our main fleet was destroyed and the other ones won't get here in time" thing.

Dec 26, 2015#167

@Li3n

Zero Esc said:
Rey has a baby face too; no way she's Vader's baby unless they had his midichlorians encased in carbonite.

Yeah, but it's one of those "she has a puffy baby face but she's certainly older", while Kylo has a "i haven't shaved yet" ones...

Dec 26, 2015#168

Hailey Knight

@Li3n said:
Yeah, but it's one of those "she has a puffy baby face but she's certainly older", while Kylo has a "i haven't shaved yet" ones...

Babies tend to be younger than puberty-beard teenagers.

As an aside, Daisy Ridley is 23, while Adam Driver is 32. That doesn't mean anything for character ages, but she isn't "clearly" older.

Dec 26, 2015#169

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
They should have just have it be a thing for Kylo's saber...

....
Oh, and was anyone else anoyed that the resistance fleet was just a bunch of X-Wing squadrons? You;d think they'd have their own fleet after a few decades (the First Order managed to build a superweapon in that time), or that the Republic would not keep all of their ships in one system...

The "Rebel" fleet became the Republic fleet, although most of their capital ships were Mon Calamari civilian cruisers which had been converted for martial purposes, and perhaps they were cashiered and returned to civilian ownership. Plus, there was a lot more fighting between the imperial remnants and the republic in the 30 years leading up to episode 7 - for example, around Jakku itself, hence the Star Destroyers and X-Wings and such littering the desertscapes. The First Order itself seemed mostly to have less than a half dozen star destroyers, and seemed to rely heavily on transports and Stormtrooper ground assaults. I get the feeling that attrition has really taken its toll on both sides of the war, and you don't really need a massive superfleet when apparently any system is in hyperjump range of any other, ranging from minutes to hours of travel time. This kind of makes garrisons obsolete when a response can be deployed anywhere in the conflict area very quickly.

Also, as other people in the thread have noted, the "resistance" seemed to be a separate, semiautonomous organization operating within First Order territory with clandestine backing from the Republic (IE, apparently the Republic did not have the political/military clout to directly contest the FO or declare them an illegitimate government, but rather had to treat with them as you would a foreign nation). Thus how the FO upper eschelons spoke of the Republic as double-dealing by backing the Resistance.

It does beg the question, however, that as the Resistance was so comparatively small, why they couldn't simply abandon their base once they knew it was compromised, as they did on Hoth and Dantooine, and redeploy to a new location.

Dec 27, 2015#170

bhamv3

GasBandit said:
It does beg the question, however, that as the Resistance was so comparatively small, why they couldn't simply abandon their base once they knew it was compromised, as they did on Hoth and Dantooine, and redeploy to a new location.

You mean when everyone was off on Starkiller Base, trying to prevent it from destroying the Resistance base? Presumably they knew that no matter where they relocated to, Starkiller could still get them. It'd be impractical to move to a new base every time Starkiller powers up, so the only thing to do would be to destroy it.

Dec 27, 2015#171

@Li3n

Zero Esc said:
Babies tend to be younger than puberty-beard teenagers.

But having a baby face says nothing of one's age... just ask Leo DeCaprio.

Zero Esc said:
As an aside, Daisy Ridley is 23, while Adam Driver is 32. That doesn't mean anything for character ages, but she isn't "clearly" older.

Well, Adam Driver is really convincing as a petulant child...

bhamv3 said:
You mean when everyone was off on Starkiller Base, trying to prevent it from destroying the Resistance base? Presumably they knew that no matter where they relocated to, Starkiller could still get them. It'd be impractical to move to a new base every time Starkiller powers up, so the only thing to do would be to destroy it.

The idea is they could do the same from a mobile HQ like a space ship. JJ just wanted the same stakes as in ANH. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

GasBandit said:
The "Rebel" fleet became the Republic fleet, although most of their capital ships were Mon Calamari civilian cruisers which had been converted for martial purposes, and perhaps they were cashiered and returned to civilian ownership. Plus, there was a lot more fighting between the imperial remnants and the republic in the 30 years leading up to episode 7 - for example, around Jakku itself, hence the Star Destroyers and X-Wings and such littering the desertscapes. The First Order itself seemed mostly to have less than a half dozen star destroyers, and seemed to rely heavily on transports and Stormtrooper ground assaults. I get the feeling that attrition has really taken its toll on both sides of the war, and you don't really need a massive superfleet when apparently any system is in hyperjump range of any other, ranging from minutes to hours of travel time. This kind of makes garrisons obsolete when a response can be deployed anywhere in the conflict area very quickly.

Yeah, i got that, but c'mon, a few capital ships would have really helped logistically. And with making it feel less in your face about rehashing Ep. 4. Plus, the space battle felt a bit lacking at the end... like they where over budget or something, which is unlikely imo.

Hell, maybe a few Republic ships showing up, the Order did basically declare war on them... and having ALL of their fleet in 1 system is really contrived. Actually, them showing up in the nick of time would even mirror Han coming back if they wanted to go that route.

Dec 27, 2015#172

GasBandit

bhamv3 said:
You mean when everyone was off on Starkiller Base, trying to prevent it from destroying the Resistance base? Presumably they knew that no matter where they relocated to, Starkiller could still get them. It'd be impractical to move to a new base every time Starkiller powers up, so the only thing to do would be to destroy it.

But this was the last shot of Starkiller, it drained the sun completely for its second shot.

Dec 27, 2015#173

fade

You know what's annoying? This "open letter from a Death Star architect" making the rounds on facebook. Its "factual" incorrectness bugs me. The so-called architect complains that blaster bolts unexpectedly made a 90 degree turn. They weren't blasters, they were torpedoes, which have been able to change direction for, like, forever. Not only that, I just figured it for a quirk of the way they animated it. Then he complains that the bolts went "miles" into the death star before detonating the core. Which is also not true. If only they said in the movie somewhere that the TORPEDOES would set off, I don't know, something like a chain reaction that should destroy the station?

Dec 27, 2015#174

Bowielee

fade said:
You know what's annoying? This "open letter from a Death Star architect" making the rounds on facebook. Its "factual" incorrectness bugs me. The so-called architect complains that blaster bolts unexpectedly made a 90 degree turn. They weren't blasters, they were torpedoes, which have been able to change direction for, like, forever. Not only that, I just figured it for a quirk of the way they animated it. Then he complains that the bolts went "miles" into the death star before detonating the core. Which is also not true. If only they said in the movie somewhere that the TORPEDOES would set off, I don't know, something like a chain reaction that should destroy the station?

It's pretty clear in the war room simulation before the Death Star run that the torpedoes went to the center of the death star and caused the explosion from there.

Dec 27, 2015#175

Tinwhistler

The death star had a 120km diameter. Even if the torpedos had to go into the core, so what? The Russian Novator K-100 air-to-air missile will go 200...in one end of the deathstar and out the other side, back inside, and make it to the core. It doesn't seem such a stretch that futuristic weapons could manage such a stretch.

Dec 27, 2015#176

Tinwhistler

So, I had to go look up this architect letter thing. It's an image, so I hadda find an online OCR converter. I'm only quoting the relevant section. My notes on the errors are in red.

I mean, do you understand the point of exhaust ports? Do you know HOW MUCH EXHAUST is created by this MOON-SIZED battle station? There were hundreds of floors on that thing. It housed a laser capable of instantly blowing up planets. It needs a LOT of ventilation -the fact that I was able to keep those exhaust ports to the size of a womp rat should earn me some credit.
Now - let's talk a little about what happened at the Battle of Yavin IV. Some farmboy nobody flies down a trench, shoots some ~~bombs~~ torpedos out of his X-Wing straight ahead, the ~~bombs~~ torpedos take a ~~90 DEGREE TURN~~ false. They would only have taken a 90 degree turn if Luke's ship was basically scraping the bottom of the trench. Since we have seen he was actually flying much higher than the very bottom of the trench, the angle was considerably less than 90 degrees. As is shown on this tactical display in the movie and in this slowed down and enhanced view of the actual shot. and then they go EXACTLY down the tiny exhaust port admittedly difficult, which is why it took so many shots, go down miles and miles of insanely narrow pipe so? our current AMRAAMS will make this distance, and our LRAAMs will go close to 3 times the distance needed. And they're not proton torpedos. and hit the Death Star's core, blowing it up.
Notice anything weird there?
First off, 'exhaust' doesn't mean shit gets SUCKED DOWN. It means shit gets PUSHED UP. That's what it is -it's expelling gas. Outward. As in, not in a direction that would suck down a bomb. If anything, it should have pushed the bombs UP. This is dumb. How many mph of a wind are we talking about here that an aerodynamic missile in flight can't handle it?
So how'd the bomb take a right angle turn down it? it didn't. Hmmmm oh I dunno OH THAT'S RIGHT WE LIVE IN A GALAXY WITH MAGIC SPACE WIZARDS.
"But Exhaust Port Designer!" you say. "All of the magic space wizards were killed!"
Damn, ya got me there OH WAIT THAT'S RIGHT! THE KID WHO TOOK THE SHOT JUST HAPPENED TO BE NAMED 'SKYWALKER.' Yep, same as our leather-daddy asthmatic boss. And he just so happened to be from the same planet as ol' Chokey. And it turns out - he wasn't even using his targeting computer when he made the winning shot! What a coincidence.
And - hey! Who was the guy pursuing the computer-less moisture-farmer? Oh, that's right - it was Darth Vader, his dad! And he managed to spectacularly fail at taking out this ~~first-time pilot~~ false. Luke had clearly flown T-16s back home, shooting targets about the same size as the exaust port. As per the conversation between Biggs and Luke: T-16s are a lot like the snubfighters we're using." "I know, I looked one over. I'm sure I can handle it.", who just so happened to be his son.

Dec 27, 2015#177

@Li3n

WAKE UP NERFPLES, THE DEATH STAR WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!!!

Dec 27, 2015#178

fade

PROTON TORPEDOES CAN'T MELT TRANSPARISTEEL BEAMS

Dec 27, 2015#179

Ravenpoe

~~A wizard~~ The Force did it.

Dec 27, 2015#180

Bowielee

Tinwhistler said:
The death star had a 120km diameter. Even if the torpedos had to go into the core, so what? The Russian Novator K-100 air-to-air missile will go 200...in one end of the deathstar and out the other side, back inside, and make it to the core. It doesn't seem such a stretch that futuristic weapons could manage such a stretch.

There's no way the death star was that small. They mistook it for a moon, which going by ours, is over 2k Miles in diameter.

Dec 27, 2015#181

Sparhawk

Bowielee said:
There's no way the death star was that small. They mistook it for a moon, which going by ours, is over 2k Miles in diameter.

Many varieties of moon sizes, here are the ones just in our solar system:

Solar System Moons

Dec 27, 2015#182

Frank

Bowielee said:
There's no way the death star was that small. They mistook it for a moon, which going by ours, is over 2k Miles in diameter.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_II/Legends

Death Star 2 was always listed as 160 kms big and being significantly larger than the original Death Star.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star

Death Star being 120.

Dec 27, 2015#183

Tinwhistler

Frank said:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_II/Legends

Death Star 2 was always listed as 160 kms big and being significantly larger than the original Death Star.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star

Death Star being 120.

To be fair, that 120 figure is mentioned in the most recent official publication. Prior official publications have listed it anywhere from 140 to 160.

Which is still small enough for one of our modern-day LRAAMs to fly in one end and out the other. No official publication has given the size to be anything other than somwhere between 100 and 200km..certainly something not as large as our own moon.

Our own moon wouldn't qualify as a "small moon" either (which is what Han called the death star upon first viewing it). Ours is one of the handful of extremely large moons in the solar system. If we're judging based on our own solar system, most moons are far far smaller than the death star is reported to have been, even at 120km diameter--as so noted by @Sparhawk

Dec 27, 2015#184

fade

Also, the size of the body in the sky depends on how far you are from it. Luke (it was Luke who called it a small moon) simply may have mis-estimated the distance to it. It was big, gray, and round, and he's inexperienced in space.

Dec 27, 2015#185

Frank

Tinwhistler said:
To be fair, that 120 figure is mentioned in the most recent official publication. Prior official publications have listed it anywhere from 140 to 160.

Which is still small enough for one of our modern-day LRAAMs to fly in one end and out the other. No official publication has given the size to be anything other than somwhere between 100 and 200km..certainly something not as large as our own moon.

Our own moon wouldn't qualify as a "small moon" either (which is what Han called the death star upon first viewing it). Ours is one of the handful of extremely large moons in the solar system. If we're judging based on our own solar system, most moons are far far smaller than the death star is reported to have been, even at 120km diameter--as so noted by @Sparhawk

I had the old orange technical manual from decades ago and it listed both DS and DS2 as 120 and 160.

This guy:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Essential_Guide_to_Vehicles_and_Vessels

Dec 27, 2015#186

Tinwhistler

Frank said:
I had the old orange technical manual from decades ago and it listed both DS and DS2 as 120 and 160.

This guy:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Essential_Guide_to_Vehicles_and_Vessels

Well, there you have it

Dec 27, 2015#187

Hailey Knight

Jesus fucking Christ what happened to this fucking thread

Dec 27, 2015#188

Sparhawk

Zero Esc said:
Jesus fucking Christ what happened to this fucking thread

HalForums.

Dec 27, 2015#189

bhamv3

Zero Esc said:
Jesus fucking Christ what happened to this fucking thread

Star Wars nerds are discussing Star Wars in a nerdy fashion.

Next, we will analyze who would win in a duel, TFA Kylo Ren or ESB Luke Skywalker.

Dec 27, 2015#190

Hailey Knight

bhamv3 said:
Star Wars nerds are discussing Star Wars in a nerdy fashion.

Next, we will analyze who would win in a duel, TFA Kylo Ren or ESB Luke Skywalker.

Whoever wins, will still be inept.

Dec 27, 2015#191

Charlie Don't Surf

did you know... the pilot that survived the trench run was Darth Vader's son? FOLLOW THE FACTS, SHEEPLE!! FALSE FLAG!!

Dec 27, 2015#192

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
did you know... the pilot that survived the trench run was Darth Vader's son? FOLLOW THE FACTS, SHEEPLE!! FALSE FLAG!!

Wedge Antilles is a Skywalker too?

Dec 27, 2015#193

Cheesy1

sixpackshaker said:
Wedge Antilles is a Skywalker too?

No, but everyone knows he is a member of the Rothschild family. THINK, PEOPLE!!!

Dec 28, 2015#194

phil

Finally saw it! I really liked it.

The saddest thing was seeing Chewie in the pilot seat because Han wasn't there anymore. God I cried a lot at that.

I was hoping more for Fin to be force sensitive mostly because I like that idea of a storm trooper turned Jedi. But I also really liked that they did do that switch from what the trailers implied.

It felt really fun and like a good classic star wars movie. The Saber fight was good in that it was more simple. I was really worried that Fin died because he wasn't useful anymore but I'm glad he'll be back.

I didn't like the very end. I was hoping Luke would show up sooner, and maybe actually say something. Plus just the shot went on for like 2 seconds too long.

Dec 28, 2015#195

IronBrig4

Because this seems to be the most common complaint.

Dec 28, 2015#196

bhamv3

I just read a fantheory that says Rey is the daughter of Luke and Leia.

My first reaction is "Aw hell no!" But after that wore off, my second reaction was, "Hmm... that would explain her prodigal growth in the Force..."

Dec 28, 2015#197

Frank

IronBrig4 said:
Because this seems to be the most common complaint.

Except that seems to be a common complaint.

Dec 28, 2015#198

IronBrig4

Nice hat. What are you supposed to be, a government agent?

I've noticed that much of the complaining is due to people wanting Episode VII to have the same effect that Episode IV had in 1977. They expected a mind-blowing experience but instead they got a serviceable film that served as a palate cleanser after the prequels. It had the same elements as Episode IV but didn't make viewers feel like kids again.

Dec 28, 2015#199

GasBandit

Well, there's same elements, and then there's "more or less the same progression of events."

Dec 28, 2015#200

Bowielee

IronBrig4 said:
It had the same elements as Episode IV but didn't make viewers feel like kids again.

Speak for yourself.

Dec 28, 2015#201

Hailey Knight

^What he said

It's almost like different people had different reactions to the same movie, which makes it inaccurate to paint any assessment with a broad brush.

Dec 28, 2015#202

sixpackshaker

Star Wars changed movies forever. No sequel will ever come close to that.

Dec 28, 2015#203

Hailey Knight

Time for a tale!

Episode VII made me excited and joyous like a kid, but there's never going to be a movie experience like when I was 6 years old in 1991 and watching Star Wars for the first time. I remember that night fondly. It was a school night, but I was so into the movie that my parents didn't bug me about bed time until it was over. I remember being awed by the opening, and being more scared of the Jawas than I should've been--but acceptable level of scared, not "turn it off" scared. Watching R2-D2 going through the desert, everything felt so mysterious and confusing. Then it follows Luke and Obi-Wan, the banthas, Mos Eisley. I'd never seen so many crazy creatures in anything.

I wasn't attuned to the details, but I was old enough to tell what was going on overall. I understood there were cool guys with laser swords called Jedi; I understood Vader was evil (though I thought he was in charge of the Empire). Weird moment was when Alderan is blown up. I understood Leia's planet had been blown up, but I didn't feel anything until Obi-Wan said his famous line, and for some reason that made it resonate with my 6-year-old brain that a bunch of people had just been killed, and suddenly I was worried for our heroes, because back then I didn't yet know that some movie characters are safe.

In fact, my worries for the sake of everyone involved were only confirmed by Obi-Wan's death. I'd never seen that happen to a hero in a movie before. It didn't freak me out, but my mouth was hanging wide open when his cloak dropped to the floor. I understood from Mos Eisley that litesabers were supposed to cut things, so when Obi-Wan just melted I thought Vader had some even more dangerous litesaber (evidenced by its red color!) that could melt people or something. That whole part gripped my baby heart, because I'd just been laughing at him and Han Solo not getting along only a little while ago!

And because movies feel longer when you're a kid, it felt like a friggin epic. I was never bored, but it felt like I'd been in this forever. I was absolutely hooked. When it came to the Death Star trenches and the climax, I was probably a foot and a half from the TV. That whole finale is masterfully done, but as a little kid, it was as stressful as it was exhilarating. Any X-wing that went down, I knew Luke's could be next, and where the hell was Han Solo? For some reason I hadn't grasped that he'd really ditched them until midway through the climax, but eventually I realized he wasn't going to help. The X-wing that hit only the side of the weak spot made me realize this could fail. So when Darth Vader's TIE-fighter locked-on, I honestly thought Luke was going to die, and they were going to lose, that it was going to be Obi-Wan again ... and then Han Solo comes in and saves him, and Luke lands the shot. I shouted "YES!" at the top of my little lungs, and smiled through the rest of the ending.

Granted, at the time I thought that was the end of the Empire and the Rebellion had won forever--oh naive little me. But at the time, Star Wars was the coolest thing that could ever be.

I still love the movie, but it's never going to be what it was that night. That doesn't make it any less; just means I've changed and grown, and I get to enjoy it a different way now.

Dec 28, 2015#204

Frank

sixpackshaker said:
Star Wars changed movies forever. No sequel will ever come close to that.

So why basically rehash it plot point for plot point?

Dec 28, 2015#205

BErt

Frank said:
So why basically rehash it plot point for plot point?

http://www.avclub.com/article/george-lucas-claimed-star-wars-movies-rhyme-and-vi-225155

...this is my only guess, and I'm not defending it further (or at all, really). But I loved this movie and am waiting for the next to see if it fits.

Dec 28, 2015#206

Bowielee

I keep forgetting how jaded nerds have become.

Dec 28, 2015#207

Hailey Knight

Frank said:
So why basically rehash it plot point for plot point?

Ask the writer? It really sounds like a lot of people had an awful time at this. That sucks, but the movie following the structure of A New Hope doesn't make it bad.

Something I'm appreciative of--like I said, there were a bunch of little kids at my screening. They filled the front rows and some of them had little litesabers. For many kids, this is their first Star Wars movie. That's a wonderful thing, because it's a fun movie, and it's also wonderful because we're past the prequel generation. There was a pocket of unfortunate youths for whom the prequels = Star Wars. But that time has passed. For kids now, VII, VIII, and IX will be their trilogy, and I'm really happy for them. Based on VII, they're going to get a good trilogy, like we did. I'm happy for them.

Dec 29, 2015#208

Mathias

Tinwhistler said:
So, I had to go look up this architect letter thing. It's an image, so I hadda find an online OCR converter. I'm only quoting the relevant section. My notes on the errors are in red.

So did this guy also forget that Luke used the force to guide the torpedo? I get really annoyed when people get hung up on the physics of Star Wars. Technically, the Death Star had enough mass to exert its own gravity, but being a lot of empty space inside (open air rooms - read: not solid mantle) people should have been floating around inside like little bobbers.

Dec 29, 2015#209

Frank

Mathias said:
So did this guy also forget that Luke used the force to guide the torpedo? I get really annoyed when people get hung up on the physics of Star Wars. Technically, the Death Star had enough mass to exert its own gravity, but being a lot of empty space inside (open air rooms - read: not solid mantle) people should have been floating around inside like little bobbers.

I'd just assume they used whatever technology they have that created artificial gravity, especially since the Death Star seemed to have floors like a building.

Dec 29, 2015#210

Sparhawk

Mathias said:
So did this guy also forget that Luke used the force to guide the torpedo? I get really annoyed when people get hung up on the physics of Star Wars. Technically, the Death Star had enough mass to exert its own gravity, but being a lot of empty space inside (open air rooms - read: not solid mantle) people should have been floating around inside like little bobbers.

I think it's implied that they have some type of artificial gravity generators, since everyone on every ship is standing and walking and not floating.

Dec 29, 2015#211

Frank

Can you imagine the transport system inside that thing?

It reminds me of that letter written about the Super Star Destroyer.

Dec 30, 2015#212

General Specific

So went and saw it again tonight. Still fun, feels very much like a Star Wars film, probably moreso now than when I first saw it. Probably had my hopes and expectations up a little too high.

There were definitely repeated plot points, but that doesn't make it bad. They kept it familiar, but different enough to stand on its own. Probably will see it a few more times before it is out of theaters.

Tell'em how I feel about it, BB-8!

Dec 30, 2015#213

Hailey Knight

George Lucas wasn't happy with it for the repeated plot points and that there weren't enough new planets/creatures/droids.

Guess he felt Disney could improve their toy variety.

Dec 30, 2015#214

Ravenpoe

General Specific said:
So went and saw it again tonight. Still fun, feels very much like a Star Wars film, probably moreso now than when I first saw it. Probably had my hopes and expectations up a little too high.

There were definitely repeated plot points, but that doesn't make it bad. They kept it familiar, but different enough to stand on its own. Probably will see it a few more times before it is out of theaters.

Tell'em how I feel about it, BB-8!

View attachment 20053

Taken out of context (and I think also slowed down) that gif now looks like BB-8 is flipping you off.

Dec 31, 2015#215

Dave

Good lord that ship is 161 miles long?!?

Dec 31, 2015#216

GasBandit

Dave said:
Good lord that ship is 161 miles long?!?

It's not really a ship. Even in star wars, I mean. It'd have been bigger than the Death Star. The "Super Star Destroyer" from Return of the Jedi is the one labeled "Executor." It was 11 miles long. There was allegedly one ship class larger, the Eclipse class, but it is thoroughly, utterly non-canon, even before the EU was disavowed.

The image posted was put there to mock the logistics required to operate a ship the size of a province.

Dec 31, 2015#217

Reverent-one

Zero Esc said:
George Lucas wasn't happy with it for the repeated plot points and that there weren't enough new planets/creatures/droids.

Guess he felt Disney could improve their toy variety.

Huh, that's an unexpected complaint. I don't think we even saw a planet we've seen before (though the difference between Jakku and Tatooine is pretty much just the name), and until we got to the resistance base, there weren't any of the older aliens besides Chewie.

Dec 31, 2015#218

Frank

GasBandit said:
It's not really a ship. Even in star wars, I mean. It'd have been bigger than the Death Star. The "Super Star Destroyer" from Return of the Jedi is the one labeled "Executor." It was 11 miles long. There was allegedly one ship class larger, the Eclipse class, but it is thoroughly, utterly non-canon, even before the EU was disavowed.

The image posted was put there to mock the logistics required to operate a ship the size of a province.

The Eclipse was from Dark Empire I think.

However, that stupid thing from some wanky book that the letter is about is still only a fraction of the size of the Death Star 2.[DOUBLEPOST=1451601163,1451600834][/DOUBLEPOST]On a hilarious note.

http://www.returnofkings.com/76356/...eporting-that-identified-it-as-sjw-propaganda

Versus

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm

It will easily be the biggest domestic film of all time and likely top 3 worldwide (find out if it can beat out Avatar or Titanic's INSANE worldwide appeal).

Dec 31, 2015#219

GasBandit

Frank said:
The Eclipse was from Dark Empire I think.

However, that stupid thing from some wanky book that the letter is about is still only a fraction of the size of the Death Star 2.

Well, the picture says it is 260 km long, and Wookieepedia says DSII was 160km in diameter (vs DS1's 120km).

Dec 31, 2015#220

Frank

GasBandit said:
Well, the picture says it is 260 km long, and Wookieepedia says DSII was 160km in diameter (vs DS1's 120km).

Still it's long and thin and not a big old sphere.

I meant to type mass, not size.

Dec 31, 2015#221

GasBandit

Frank said:
Still it's long and thin and not a big old sphere.

I meant to type mass, not size.

True enough. Still ridiculous to basically fly Rhode Island around.

On an unrelated note, obviously the Death Star had hyperdrive and a propulsion system of some sort, but it just occurred to me as odd that nobody ever thought "Maybe we should film a scene where the Death Star engages its hyperdrive." It almost felt like an overlooked afterthought in episode 4.

Dec 31, 2015#222

Celt Z

I don't know what "cuck" means (and you don't need to inform me, thanks), but now there will be a rash of multiracial babies (this would be a bad thing?) because Rey and Finn are friends? I..just... okay? I mean, I know who the source is, but I just can't even wrap my brain around the "logic" that went into that complaint.

Meanwhile, as I saw someone else write, this is further proof you really DON'T need those MRA dollars*.

(*I have my doubts how many actually boycotted the film.)

Dec 31, 2015#223

GasBandit

Celt Z said:
I don't know what "cuck" means (and you don't need to inform me, thanks),

I'm pretty sure it's just a lazy abbreviation for "cuckold."

Dec 31, 2015#224

jwhouk

GasBandit said:
Well, the picture says it is 260 km long, and Wookieepedia says DSII was 160km in diameter (vs DS1's 120km).

...That would cover most of northern Wisconsin.

Dec 31, 2015#225

GasBandit

jwhouk said:
...That would cover most of northern Wisconsin.

Well, I'm going on the assumption that, as the Executor was longer but "skinnier" in ratio than the Imperial Star Destroyer, the "Freudian Nightmare" would be similar "longer but skinnier." So... maybe it's 120 miles long, but wedge/arrowhead shaped and 20 miles wide at its widest? That'd be in the ballpark of the 1200 square mile area of Rhode Island.

But I dunno, at this point I'm just speculating. About a universe with near-instant superluminal/hyperspace travel but fighters fly through "normal" space slower than a Bugatti Veyron.
(An X-Wing's top speed, without diverting power from shields or weapons, is approximately 100m/s, or 223.6 mph. The Veyron's top speed is ~250mph).

Dec 31, 2015#226

Hailey Knight

Reverent-one said:
Huh, that's an unexpected complaint. I don't think we even saw a planet we've seen before (though the difference between Jakku and Tatooine is pretty much just the name), and until we got to the resistance base, there weren't any of the older aliens besides Chewie.

I wouldn't take any of George Lucas's bitching to heart. Can you imagine how shitty Episode VII would be if he'd been at the helm again?

Dec 31, 2015#227

Cheesy1

Zero Esc said:
I wouldn't take any of George Lucas's bitching to heart. Can you imagine how shitty Episode VII would be if he'd been at the helm again?

Star Wars
Episode VII
The Midi-Chlorians Rouse

It is a time of melancholy. At the behest of his sister Queen Leia, Luke Skywalker must negotiate lower tariffs on nerf related goods shipping through the Space Arab sector . . .

Dec 31, 2015#228

Cajungal

I feel like Lucas was hoping for a bomb. Then he could say something like 'See? You didn't know what you had when I was around.'

Dec 31, 2015#229

Bubble181

Cajungal said:
I feel like Lucas was hoping for a bomb. Then he could say something like 'See? You didn't know what you had when I was around.'

Had he never made the prequels, this might be what would've happened. Imagine if someone else had made The Phantom Menace - fans would adore Lucas and ask for him back and to forget this "other" movie had ever been made and whatnot.

Dec 31, 2015#230

Hailey Knight

Lucas didn't make Empire or Jedi, so if he hadn't made any more Star Wars films it would've been business as usual. Instead we got the prequel trilogy.

Had someone else made Episode I and it was exactly the movie we got, people would be begging for Lucas, yeah. But if someone else had actually been given the instruction "make three movies that take place before the original Star Wars," I'm confident whatever would've come out would have been preferable to midichlorians, baby Boba Fett, and "NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo".

Dec 31, 2015#231

Bubble181

I never really got the baby Fett hatred. I mean, I never cared for Boba either way ,and never understood the boner the EU and a lot of fans had for him, but given that, eh, being a clone of a great bounty hunter with an anti-Jedi revenge fetish isn't that bad of a backstory. And the kid acted better than Little Orphan Ani, anyway.

Dec 31, 2015#232

Cheesy1

I met the actor who played Baby Boba at Gencon in 2003. He was a brat in real life too. Jeremy Bulloch, who played Boba in the original trilogy, was also there and he was very gracious and polite.

Dec 31, 2015#233

Hailey Knight

Bubble181 said:
I never really got the baby Fett hatred. I mean, I never cared for Boba either way ,and never understood the boner the EU and a lot of fans had for him, but given that, eh, being a clone of a great bounty hunter with an anti-Jedi revenge fetish isn't that bad of a backstory. And the kid acted better than Little Orphan Ani, anyway.

I'm with you on Boba. I never got his appeal--didn't hate him; he was just another thing. I didn't know he was popular until I got into the internet.

But the backstory was clumsy and hollow. First, Lucas is taking this unimportant bounty hunter and giving him grandiose significance to the Clone Wars and the fall of the Republic. Then you have Jango asking them to make a separate clone that ages normally and it's one of those things where if the prequels were written first, this would never be part of the story. Everything going on with the Jetts comes off as Lucas desperate to please the fans he despises.

In any case, I listed baby Boba there as representing Episode II. Episode II has so, so many points that irritate the hell out of me. Dexter Jetster, C-3P0 in the factory, like the sands of Tatooine so are the days of our lives, MOAR litesabers up in this arena, butt beasts, "around the survivors a perimeter create" ... this list would probably be longer, but I haven't seen that movie in a long time.

Jan 1, 2016#234

Mathias

Frank said:
I'd just assume they used whatever technology they have that created artificial gravity, especially since the Death Star seemed to have floors like a building.

Well, you can't really produce artificial gravity without some kind of centripetal motion, in which case the Death Star's floors would have to be spinning around in a complex of rings or something (and it clearly doesn't). And the ol' anti-gravity excuse is moot because gravity isn't a quantum force like the other three, so it doesn't have an anti force carrying particle to cancel it out. Anywho, my point is that it's impossible to explain away the physics of Star Wars using real physics, and making arguments about the ability for a proton torpedo to travel down a hundred km shaft is the least glaring issue. I'm a scientist, and I just have fun with these kinds of movies. They're not actively trying to be sci-fi regardless. That's Star Trek territory. Star Wars is more fantasy than sci-fi.

Jan 1, 2016#235

Bubble181

Mathias said:
Well, you can't really produce artificial gravity without some kind of centripetal motion

...as far as we know now.

Mathias said:
And the ol' anti-gravity excuse is moot because gravity isn't a quantum force like the other three, so it doesn't have an anti force carrying particle to cancel it out.

...as far as we know now.

I don't think it's possible either, but strictly speaking, you can't really predict what will or won't be possible given enough advancement of science. Sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable and all that jazz. Plenty of scientists throughout time have said perfectly possible things were impossible because they didn't understand how or didn't know about something essential. There's a difference between disproven theories (I think we can rule out Phlogiston, guys) and things we can't achieve just yet.

Jan 1, 2016#236

klew

That's the "fiction" part of "science fiction".

Jan 1, 2016#237

Hailey Knight

But for it to work as science fiction, it has to be based off some level of science. "We can just do it" isn't a scientific field I've heard of.

It's not like we've seen zero-G in these movies. Hell, in Empire, Han, Leia, and Chewbacca are able to exit the Millennium Falcon while inside that worm monster, on an asteroid, which does not have an atmosphere. No concerns about cold or air or gravity, as if outer space in Star Wars doesn't function like space in real life.

Jan 1, 2016#238

GasBandit

Star Wars is not science fiction, it is fantasy that happens to take place in space.

Jan 1, 2016#239

Ravenpoe

You know what else isn't possible? The force.

/thatguy

Jan 1, 2016#240

Tinwhistler

Ravenpoe said:
You know what else isn't possible? The force.

/thatguy

Uri Geller would like a word with you...

Jan 1, 2016#241

sixpackshaker

Jan 1, 2016#242

General Specific

Tinwhistler said:
Uri Geller would like a word with you...

James Randi would like a word with you both.

Jan 1, 2016#243

Ravenpoe

General Specific said:
James Randi would like a word with you both.

View attachment 20067

Is it ironic that Randi looks even more like a wizard?

Jan 1, 2016#244

Mathias

Zero Esc said:
But for it to work as science fiction, it has to be based off some level of science. "We can just do it" isn't a scientific field I've heard of.

It's not like we've seen zero-G in these movies. Hell, in Empire, Han, Leia, and Chewbacca are able to exit the Millennium Falcon while inside that worm monster, on an asteroid, which does not have an atmosphere. No concerns about cold or air or gravity, as if outer space in Star Wars doesn't function like space in real life.

Yes, exactly. Star Trek is science fiction. Star Wars is fantasy.[DOUBLEPOST=1451675773,1451675709][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ravenpoe said:
You know what else isn't possible? The force.

/thatguy

Exactly. George Lucas tried to do that midiclorian bullshit, but the reality is The Force = Magic.

Jan 1, 2016#245

Bubble181

Zero Esc said:
But for it to work as science fiction, it has to be based off some level of science. "We can just do it" isn't a scientific field I've heard of.

It's not like we've seen zero-G in these movies. Hell, in Empire, Han, Leia, and Chewbacca are able to exit the Millennium Falcon while inside that worm monster, on an asteroid, which does not have an atmosphere. No concerns about cold or air or gravity, as if outer space in Star Wars doesn't function like space in real life.

Perfectly possible by a correct application of an SEP field.

Jan 2, 2016#246

Frank

Science me this idiots:

Jan 2, 2016#247

Charlie Don't Surf

that is some really weird and gross shit

Jan 2, 2016#248

Frank

Yup.

Jan 2, 2016#249

@Li3n

Mathias said:
And the ol' anti-gravity excuse is moot because gravity isn't a quantum force like the other three, so it doesn't have an anti force carrying particle to cancel it out

But it might be a space-time curvature or something, and maybe they just learned how to cause that.

But aren't gravitons also a thing? Which would mean an anti-particle would also be possible.

Jan 2, 2016#250

drawn_inward

I think it would be a bit boring if Rey is Luke or Leia's kid. Maybe Anakin had some lovin' during his Darth years? But that would make her Luke's sister. Never mind. I hope it's a better story than a rehashing of Luke's origin.

Jan 2, 2016#251

Hailey Knight

drawn_inward said:
I think it would be a bit boring if Rey is Luke or Leia's kid. Maybe Anakin had some lovin' during his Darth years? But that would make her Luke's sister. Never mind. I hope it's a better story than a rehashing of Luke's origin.

She's too young to be Vader's kid even if he impregnated someone right before the end of Return of the Jedi.

I'd rather she was Luke's daughter than be another midichlorian virgin birth or whatever, but her being Luke's daughter isn't that interesting. I still think that's where they're going with it since Han seemed to know something about her, or at least Maz Kanada thought he did. But I'm hoping they have something more interesting in mind.

Jan 2, 2016#252

Mathias

@Li3n said:
But it might be a space-time curvature or something, and maybe they just learned how to cause that.

But aren't gravitons also a thing? Which would mean an anti-particle would also be possible.

Nope, gravity is an additive force. There is no anti-particle that's known to cancel or reduce gravity.

Jan 2, 2016#253

Hailey Knight

Not to mention, if they had figured out something like this, what value is there in putting it in every X-wing, every TIE fighter, every dinky Naboo yellow shit plane? For live-in places like Star Destroyers, sure, but it's pointless to put it in everything.

There's just zero point in trying to apply scientific practice and principles to Star Wars. For every thing you try to explain, there's a million other things. Might as well say there are little space elves wired into the engine of every ship.

If you need something to nerd over, there's all the social, cultural, economic, and political stuff. There's tons of things to dissect and pour over in Star Wars. But science just devolves to nitpicking and bitching about how one thing or another doesn't work or make sense, and there's a reason for that--no one making these movies ever cared about that element. It was never important, and Lucas's attempt to make it so is one of the most hated things among Star Wars fans, so I don't see why anyone would want to go back to that.

Fucking midichlorians. My ass.

Jan 2, 2016#254

Hailey Knight

For anyone still unsure about whether Rey is Vader's kid--script says she's 19.

Also says Fin is 23, which means the First Order was getting its shit together a while before this movie.

Jan 2, 2016#255

MindDetective

Zero Esc said:
Not to mention, if they had figured out something like this, what value is there in putting it in every X-wing, every TIE fighter, every dinky Naboo yellow shit plane? For live-in places like Star Destroyers, sure, but it's pointless to put it in everything.

There's just zero point in trying to apply scientific practice and principles to Star Wars. For every thing you try to explain, there's a million other things. Might as well say there are little space elves wired into the engine of every ship.

If you need something to nerd over, there's all the social, cultural, economic, and political stuff. There's tons of things to dissect and pour over in Star Wars. But science just devolves to nitpicking and bitching about how one thing or another doesn't work or make sense, and there's a reason for that--no one making these movies ever cared about that element. It was never important, and Lucas's attempt to make it so is one of the most hated things among Star Wars fans, so I don't see why anyone would want to go back to that.

Fucking midichlorians. My ass.

Kind of undid your whole point at the end there by getting in a twist at the science of midichlorians. Midichlorians don't explain the force at all. They are no more science than lightsabers or hyperdrives. They are nothing more than technobabble (like hyperdrive is). The only purpose they serve in Episode I is as a measure of potential for force-sensitivity so that Anakin could be identified as important, nothing more. The space-magic is still there, even with midichlorians; not to worry!

Jan 2, 2016#256

blotsfan

I think its more that the idea of a "strong with the force"-meter just seems off.

Jan 2, 2016#257

MindDetective

blotsfan said:
I think its more that the idea of a "strong with the force"-meter just seems off.

It seems odd to complain about technology in a science fantasy, where there are space ships and blasters and androids. Of course the Jedi order would develop a test to determine possible candidates!

Jan 2, 2016#258

Bubble181

A handwavey "he's strong in the Force" or "has great potential" is so much easier to deal with and keep exact measurements out of than an actual technodoohickey that tells you the exact connectedness-to-the-Force of everyone. It feels like one could take the MC levels of Yoda, Palapatine, Exar Kun, whoever, and compare them and just make a single, simple table of "strongest Force-users sorted by capabilities". It reduces the magic and the emotional side of the Force - yes, I know, even though having lots of MCs isn't enough and you also need personality and training and whatever. It means there's an exact measure of the amount of talent you have for it.
Of course, it all comes down to Lucas not being able to figure out how "this boy" could be the one the Prophecy is about other than by some very heavy handed guiding.

Jan 2, 2016#259

blotsfan

Which is ridiculous since saying "I sense that he's incredibly strong with the force" would've worked just as well.

Jan 2, 2016#260

fade

But the midichlorians and the test for them implies a whole "scientific" backstory. There is more story than what they say onscreen. Likewise, the mystery directly cited in ANH and ESB implies a boatload of different story.

Jan 2, 2016#261

MindDetective

But nothing was actually explained. The mystery is actually still there. It was just embedded in science dressing. Instant space travel and sword fights were too. So this road all leads to scientific nitpicking of other things then as well, like light sabers and hyperdrive. You can't ignore one then get flustered by the other. Accept the dressing or get nitpicking.

Jan 2, 2016#262

fade

I disagree. The dressing is the very thing that is irksome. It's not that they don't explain the science. It's that they changed the dressing from magic to science at all.

Jan 2, 2016#263

MindDetective

fade said:
I disagree. The dressing is the very thing that is irksome. It's not that they don't explain the science. It's that they changed the dressing from magic to science at all.

In similar vein, robots with "bad motivators" and plasma swords that only work with special rare crystals are dumb details that ruin the magic of robots and light sabers. So let's nitpick those too.

Jan 2, 2016#264

Ravenpoe

MindDetective said:
You can't ignore one then get flustered by the other. Accept the dressing or get nitpicking.

Sure you can, by process of "is this cool, or dumb?" Lightsabers, unexplained gravity, this all falls under the heading of "it's cool and makes a neat story." Midichlorians are dumb. The end.

Jan 2, 2016#265

fade

You're arguing with something I'm not saying. I'm not nitpicking. It's about the connotations and the feelings evoked. It doesn't matter that the explanation is incomplete, unrealistic, or poor. It matters that the story feel it evokes is completely different from what was established. The problem isn't that it's not good science fiction, it's that they gave it a science-based origin at all. The magic-based origin was better story-telling. They ruined the magic trick by showing us how it worked. It doesn't matter by contrast if you tell me you can never truly create a sentient robot. However, it would be poor story telling if you told me the droids were animated by magic, because we accept that they are science based.

Jan 2, 2016#266

klew

Rey is cloned from Luke's DNA. We know someone found his/Anakin's lightsaber, why not with Luke's hand still attached?

Jan 2, 2016#267

MindDetective

Ravenpoe said:
Sure you can, by process of "is this cool, or dumb?" Lightsabers, unexplained gravity, this all falls under the heading of "it's cool and makes a neat story." Midichlorians are dumb. The end.

The force is cool, lightsabers are cool, robots are cool. Midichlorians are dumb, rare crystals that make lightsabers work are dumb, bad motivators are dumb.

fade said:
You're arguing with something I'm not saying. I'm not nitpicking.

We are just interpreting that word differently. The sentiment is what I am getting at. The griping or lack of acceptance.

It's about the connotations and the feelings evoked. It doesn't matter that the explanation is incomplete, unrealistic, or poor. It matters that the story feel it evokes is completely different from what was established. The problem isn't that it's not good science fiction, it's that they gave it a science-based origin at all. The magic-based origin was better story-telling. They ruined the magic trick by showing us how it worked. It doesn't matter by contrast if you tell me you can never truly create a sentient robot. However, it would be poor story telling if you told me the droids were animated by magic, because we accept that they are science based.

I wasn't arguing that it was good science fiction in any way. I'm not sure why you are arguing against that view point, in fact. My point was that when you try to delve into any of the superficially cool stuff of Star Wars (or any space fantasy) it gets dumb really quick. This is true for the force, lightsabers, space travel and robots. The technobabble is dumb for all of those things and NONE of the technobabble explains anything.

Jan 2, 2016#268

Frank

Rare crystals that make lightsabers work is not something ever talked about in the movies, that's all EU stuff. They're just ancient weapons used by a hokie religion.

I also don't see how a robot having a faulty part is dumb, especially when it's being sold by roving desert scavengers.

Jan 2, 2016#269

MindDetective

Frank said:
Rare crystals that make lightsabers work is not something ever talked about in the movies, that's all EU stuff. They're just ancient weapons used by a hokie religion.

I also don't see how a robot having a faulty part is dumb, especially when it's being sold by roving desert scavengers.

Crystals are canon from the Clone Wars cartoon. A bad motivator is as much a broken part as midichlorians are a part of a biological cell.

Jan 2, 2016#270

Frank

MindDetective said:
Crystals are canon from the Clone Wars cartoon. A bad motivator is as much a broken part as midichlorians are a part of a biological cell.

It be canon all it wants, but that's something that only a tiny percentage of people will see as part of a long series. The movies are the thing that everyone sees that have limited time to tell a story. Midichlorians are in the movies, rare crystals are not.

Anything not the movies is EU, canon or no. The Marvel comics I own are canon, doesn't make them any less EU.

Jan 2, 2016#271

Yoshimickster

Frank said:
Science me this idiots:

...you know, I have sworn never to say or type this word again but...that was straight up retarded. There is no word better to describe this. Just...ugh.

Jan 2, 2016#272

fade

I don't disagree that the technobabble really explains nothing. My point is that technobabble is really out of place from the get-go for the force. It weakens the established story and changes it at a very fundamental level, regardless of whether it's dumb or genius as an explanation.

Jan 2, 2016#273

MindDetective

fade said:
I don't disagree that the technobabble really explains nothing. My point is that technobabble is really out of place from the get-go for the force. It weakens the established story and changes it at a very fundamental level, regardless of whether it's dumb or genius as an explanation.

My point is that it doesn't change anything at all. The Force is literally the same as it was before learning about midichlorians. It is only dumb because it breaks the illusion the audience holds. And that happens with more than just the force.

Jan 2, 2016#274

fade

And I disagree with you. I think it changes a great deal because it changes the established story and feel by offering a very different explanation than the established one. It's clear we're at an impasse on this, and it's truly just opinion anyway.

Jan 2, 2016#275

Mathias

Frank said:
It be canon all it wants, but that's something that only a tiny percentage of people will see as part of a long series. The movies are the thing that everyone sees that have limited time to tell a story. Midichlorians are in the movies, rare crystals are not.

Anything not the movies is EU, canon or no. The Marvel comics I own are canon, doesn't make them any less EU.

I think the Clone Wars show is also considered canon.

Jan 2, 2016#276

Frank

Mathias said:
I think the Clone Wars show is also considered canon.

Yeah, I know, I meant that it may be canon, but it's still extended universe, like the current run of Marvel comics or all the books that are sure to be released. Anything going forward is canon apparently.[DOUBLEPOST=1451765661,1451765488][/DOUBLEPOST]And because I'm having fun seeing some of the sadder shit being posted online about this movie, here's another gem.

Jan 2, 2016#277

blotsfan

Like, not even thinking about the possible differences in quality, did the guy who made that not notice the unbelievable hype Star Wars was getting?

Jan 2, 2016#278

Celt Z

klew said:
Rey is cloned from Luke's DNA. We know someone found his/Anakin's lightsaber, why not with Luke's hand still attached?

There's a part of me who likes to imagine some maintenance guy on Bespin found the lightsaber with the hand still clutching it, and was like, "Eww, dude!" and chucked the hand, having no idea who's it was. Just another day, another random body part.

Jan 2, 2016#279

fade

Celt Z said:
There's a part of me who likes to imagine some maintenance guy on Bespin found the lightsaber with the hand still clutching it, and was like, "Eww, dude!" and chucked the hand, having no idea who's it was. Just another day, another random body part.

They did a skit like this on Robot Chicken

Jan 2, 2016#280

Hailey Knight

Bubble181 said:
It reduces the magic and the emotional side of the Force - yes, I know, even though having lots of MCs isn't enough and you also need personality and training and whatever. It means there's an exact measure of the amount of talent you have for it.

[DOUBLEPOST=1451769354,1451769216][/DOUBLEPOST]

MindDetective said:
The space-magic is still there, even with midichlorians; not to worry!

I put the prequels out of my head when I watch the other movies, so it's not really a concern for me. I talk about this stuff as a franchise, same as with the video games, books, etc., but for me the prequels are no more canon than the EU books at this point. If they aren't referenced at all in the new trilogy, all the better. In fact, I hope something in the new movies directly contradicts them.

Jan 2, 2016#281

@Li3n

Mathias said:
There is no anti-particle that's known to cancel or reduce gravity.

Well since we don't even know what actually causes gravity it's not really surprising we don't know of anything that might reduce/cancel it.

Jan 2, 2016#282

Piotyr

Frank said:

I mean, just because the trailer before Star Wars showed me this whole movie, doesn't mean they can count those box office sales.

Jan 2, 2016#283

Bubble181

Finally saw this one. A bit sad I got everything spoiled beforehand, some of the things still had an impact but I can only imagine what it would've been unspoiled. That said, I liked it. Yes, there's plenty of overlap with IV, and plenty of fan pleasing references, but it's handled a lot better than in the prequels, there's plenty of shake up. It felt like a proper Star Wars movie, but it was also a good action movie and just plain old a good movie. The new lightsaber didn't irk me as I thought it would - it (still) looks silly in stills, but with the different sword fighting style, and the way it's used to echo Ren's emotional state and way of doing things, I think it works. It's really no worse than Maul's double or Tyranus' special handle ones.
Also, while I'm not always a fan of JJ's work, the quality of everything from acting, dialogue, sets, build-up, costumes, all of it, just screams this is a better movie than any of the prequels.

Having only seen this one once, in cinema, and the others a bunch of times, on the small screen, makes it hard to compare, but right now, without having thought too much yet, I might be tempted to put this as my second-favorite SW movie.

Jan 2, 2016#284

Hailey Knight

As I mentioned in the latest movie thread, I just watched Jedi again for the first time in over 15 years, and ...

So Kylo Ren either went to Endor or sent someone there to dig around for Vader's helmet. What a fucking dweeb.

Oh, and I bet he didn't know about Vader's sense of conflict over his son, or his turn from the dark side in the end. I'm not even looking forward to Luke kicking his ass in future movies; more like giving him a stern talking to. He wants to be Vader so bad, but Vader wouldn't kill his child and Luke wouldn't kill his father. Kylo isn't the badass that Vader was, but he's becoming something far more sickly and irredeemable.

When's the next movie coming out?

Jan 2, 2016#285

Bubble181

Zero Esc said:
As I mentioned in the latest movie thread, I just watched Jedi again for the first time in over 15 years, and ...

So Kylo Ren either went to Endor or sent someone there to dig around for Vader's helmet. What a fucking dweeb.

Oh, and I bet he didn't know about Vader's sense of conflict over his son, or his turn from the dark side in the end. I'm not even looking forward to Luke kicking his ass in future movies; more like giving him a stern talking to. He wants to be Vader so bad, but Vader wouldn't kill his child and Luke wouldn't kill his father. Kylo isn't the badass that Vader was, but he's becoming something far more sickly and irredeemable.

When's the next movie coming out?

I kind of assume Luke will die to Ren in the second movie, similar to Ben's death in IV. After (or "and/or"), of course, mirroring V, telling him Vader turned back to the Light before his death, and having Ren go "NNNOOOoooooooooooo".

I'm most curious about Snoke, though, despite the silly name. A hologram can be anything. Besides Maul, we haven't seen a single non-human DSer. I'd be disappointed if he was someone without some background or connection to the earlier movies. Ohh, he's got scars around his head - is he a wounded but alive jar Jar?

Jan 2, 2016#286

Yoshimickster

Zero Esc said:
So Kylo Ren either went to Endor or sent someone there to dig around for Vader's helmet. What a fucking dweeb.

I remember asking JJ a similar question about the helmet. He gave the whole "Mysterious" answer, FLEH whatevs.

Jan 2, 2016#287

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
I'm most curious about Snoke, though, despite the silly name. A hologram can be anything. Besides Maul, we haven't seen a single non-human DSer.

Ventress wants a word with you

I know you meant just the movies, but the clone wars series is still held as canon by Disney.

Jan 2, 2016#288

Hailey Knight

Bubble181 said:
I'm most curious about Snoke, though, despite the silly name. A hologram can be anything. Besides Maul, we haven't seen a single non-human DSer. I'd be disappointed if he was someone without some background or connection to the earlier movies. Ohh, he's got scars around his head - is he a wounded but alive jar Jar?

Ditto on wanting to know about Snoke. I want to know his goals, his background, his connections, what his deal is.

Jan 2, 2016#289

blotsfan

And while it isn't canon anymore, the Empire had a policy of racism to nonhumans (and the makeup of the first order seems to fit that). Interesting to see it run by a nonhuman.

Jan 2, 2016#290

AshburnerX

Unless he WAS human and his influence with the Dark Side has turned him into THAT, which is completely possible.

Jan 2, 2016#291

Cajungal

The Gollum of Star Wars?

Jan 2, 2016#292

AshburnerX

Cajungal said:
The Gollum of Star Wars?

Why not? We saw what being hit with Force Lightning did to Palpatine... unless he was lying all along and getting hit with it simply forced him into his ACTUAL form instead of his fake one. It's been long established that long time Dark Side use does things like yellow the eyes and pale the skin.

Jan 2, 2016#293

Bubble181

Ravenpoe said:
Ventress wants a word with you

I know you meant just the movies, but the clone wars series is still held as canon by Disney.

And some of the books are New Canon too, but no, I don't count them. The movies, period. Show, don't tell, and all that.

blotsfan said:
And while it isn't canon anymore, the Empire had a policy of racism to nonhumans (and the makeup of the first order seems to fit that). Interesting to see it run by a nonhuman.

It may not be strictly canon, but considering you don't see a singly non-human in service of the Empire, anywhere, ever - officially (bounty hunters, cloners,... weren't officially employed by the Empire, after all), it's still true.

Jan 2, 2016#294

Hailey Knight

Screw it; wife and I are going to see it again tomorrow. Hateful Eight will be next weekend.

Jan 2, 2016#295

ThatNickGuy

Zero Esc said:
Ditto on wanting to know about Snoke. I want to know his goals, his background, his connections, what his deal is.

Part of me wonders if what we saw of Snoke isn't him at all. It's a Great Wizard of Oz thing. He might not even look like a poor man's Voldemort at all. For all we know, Snoke is someone very familiar.

Some people have theorized that Luke actually fell to the dark side and he's Snoke behind the scenes. I think that's a bit of a leap, but it'd be one hell of a shock if true. Revealed properly, it'd be right up there with "I AM YOUR FATHER."

Jan 2, 2016#296

Hailey Knight

ThatNickGuy said:
Part of me wonders if what we saw of Snoke isn't him at all. It's a Great Wizard of Oz thing. He might not even look like a poor man's Voldemort at all. For all we know, Snoke is someone very familiar.

Some people have theorized that Luke actually fell to the dark side and he's Snoke behind the scenes. I think that's a bit of a leap, but it'd be one hell of a shock if true. Revealed properly, it'd be right up there with "I AM YOUR FATHER."

Before the movie came out, I thought the evil Luke thing was plausible and even a good idea, but now that we know what's going on in this universe 30 years later, the chances are pretty much zero.

I like the theory that real Snoke is only slightly taller than an Ewok

Jan 2, 2016#297

Ravenpoe

Zero Esc said:
Before the movie came out, I thought the evil Luke thing was plausible and even a good idea, but now that we know what's going on in this universe 30 years later, the chances are pretty much zero.

I like the theory that real Snoke is only slightly taller than an Ewok .

Well, we know Harrison Ford wanted Han to die in Return of the Jedi. And Mark Hamil wanted Luke to turn evil in RotJ. Harrison Ford got his wish, so...

Jan 2, 2016#298

Hailey Knight

Ravenpoe said:
Well, we know Harrison Ford wanted Han to die in Return of the Jedi. And Mark Hamil wanted Luke to turn evil in RotJ. Harrison Ford got his wish, so...

Again, pre-movie, I'd be right there with you. Now I think we've got as much chance of evil Luke as we do of that Snoke being Jar Jar thing being true.

Jan 3, 2016#299

Bubble181

Zero Esc said:
Again, pre-movie, I'd be right there with you. Now I think we've got as much chance of evil Luke as we do of that Snoke being Jar Jar thing being true.

50-50, you say? Yeah, I understand

Jan 3, 2016#300

strawman

Just watched it a second time.

Whether Rey is Luis daughter or not, I think the film makes some effort to suggest that R2D2 was specifically waiting for her to appear. It didn't awaken when the extra map piece showed up, or for the presence of fin, but said "I found it" when Rey was actually present at the resistance base and provided the portions of the map the resistance didn't have. It doesn't appear to be coincidence, Luke didn't merely go hide, he made a path to find him that would only present itself once Rey was found, and by preventing R2 from roaming, knowing it would be carted around forever by Leia, he also gauranteed he would not be found if Rey didn't at some point meet up with Leia.

Given that Leia thought he was looking for the first Jedi temple I'm pretty sure he intended to be found, but whether it was by his own offspring or someone sufficiently strong in the force I don't know.

The vision Rey saw with Luke's hand on the droid is probably the point he programmed the droid - and I use program loosely here, he could have simply used to force to inhibit the droids operation until conditions were met - and it's quite possible that he retrieved his own lightsaber and distributed that to a friendly party as well. Perhaps in the same way yoda set up the cave for Luke, Luke set up the lightsaber to test possible apprentices.

Perhaps the droid was simply looking for the lightsaber, knowing that it would call out to nearby force users, or family relations, test them, and only end up near the droid if they were decent beings, having both passed the test, accepted the saber, *and* ended up near the resistance.

Jan 3, 2016#301

Bubble181

[DOUBLEPOST=1451804375,1451804343][/DOUBLEPOST]The Gungans one cracked me up; the others are just funny

Jan 3, 2016#302

Null

Saw it for the third time today, this time in 3D. It really doesn't add anything to the movie but the price tag.

Something to occurred to me: This is The First Order's first major offensive. The Resistance and Republic seemed to think The First Order was way smaller and weaker than it actually was.

1) Poe is stunned to see the scale of operations on the Star Destroyer when he's taken prisoner. A few drop ships and squads of stormies, sure. But a full Star Destroyer and Starkiller Base? Those were completely unexpected.

2) The Republic Fleet wasn't mobilized, again, meaning they didn't perceive a serious threat. They were content to support the Resistance to oppose The First Order.

3) The Resistance is small scale: a few transports and a large squadron of starfighters. Without the Republic fleet, they didn't even have enough transport to evacuate from their base (that's what C-3PO means when he says 'Without the Republic, we're doomed.')

4) Finn mentions that Jakku was his first battle. If the First Order was engaged in a long term series of engagements, they probably wouldn't have so many inexperienced troops.

5) Aside from a few middle aged Imperial veterans, much of The First Order seems extremely young - people too young to know what life was like under The Empire, and think the Republic is weak and corrupt because it is more fluid / chaotic.

Jan 3, 2016#303

AshburnerX

stienman said:
The vision Rey saw with Luke's hand on the droid is probably the point he programmed the droid - and I use program loosely here, he could have simply used to force to inhibit the droids operation until conditions were met - and it's quite possible that he retrieved his own lightsaber and distributed that to a friendly party as well. Perhaps in the same way yoda set up the cave for Luke, Luke set up the lightsaber to test possible apprentices.

Perhaps the droid was simply looking for the lightsaber, knowing that it would call out to nearby force users, or family relations, test them, and only end up near the droid if they were decent beings, having both passed the test, accepted the saber, *and* ended up near the resistance.

It's entirely more likely that Luke just asked R2 to wait in low power mode until he sensed the lightsaber hilt... in fact, he probably arranged for it to be at the location it was found entirely because he knew Han went there regularly. Or maybe he just knew that is where it needed to be, who knows?

As for the cave on Dagoba... it's actually a naturally occurring Dark Side location (something about a Sith dying there in the EU but that part isn't canon anymore). The entire reason Yoda was on Dagoba was because that cave's influence was able to mask his own presence in the force. Yoda apparently found out about it from Qui-Gon Jinn's force ghost and went there, where he saw a vision of the fall of the Jedi and the rise of Darth Sidious... which all happened on the Clone Wars TV show and is thus canon. Episode was called "Voices".

Jan 3, 2016#304

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
I kind of assume Luke will die to Ren in the second movie, similar to Ben's death in IV.

Nah, if we're going with continuing to recreate the OT he's going to die of old age right when Rey comes back from rescuing Finn against his advice.

Jan 3, 2016#305

Covar

So did no one else notice the headstone Luke was standing next to?

Jan 3, 2016#306

Ravenpoe

Covar said:
So did no one else notice the headstone Luke was standing next to?

Jan 3, 2016#307

Hailey Knight

So, not just staring at random at the sea, but grieving someone.

I wonder who, and if they had been on this planet with him or was a body he took to this place.

Jan 3, 2016#308

Ravenpoe

Zero Esc said:
So, not just staring at random at the sea, but grieving someone.

I wonder who, and if they had been on this planet with him or was a body he took to this place.

Well, there's a few possibilities.

Possibility one is that it's not a gravestone... it's just a random rock. He's not actually looking at it, it's to his left, and the shot doesn't stay on it for very long.

Two, it's not a gravestone, but it is a memorial of some sort. He was supposedly looking for the first Jedi temple, it could be some sort of memorial structure.

Three, it is a gravestone, either one that existed before, or a body he brought with him there.

Of course, the biggest theory is that it's the grave of Luke's wife/girlfriend/possibly Rey's mother. Whether that's going to be Mara Jade in this reboot or someone else is anyone's guess.

Jan 3, 2016#309

Hailey Knight

I keep forgetting about the Jedi temple. Yeah, it could be ancient.

Jan 3, 2016#310

sixpackshaker

Jan 3, 2016#311

ScytheRexx

Finally saw the movie. Was a lot of fun. The OT homages and plot threads didn't really hurt it for me, though I do think the Empire / First Order need to really stop developing sphereical super-weapons with a single weak spot, because come on guys, you get one shot and then the whole thing always goes tits up on you!

I am still of the opinion that Rey is the daughter of Han and Leia, and that her and Kylo Ren are supposed to mimic Jacen and Jaina from the EU, only with the new Disney-helmed names/twist, and likely not having them be twins. It will give a more powerful "I am your father!" style reveal with "I am your brother!", which wouldn't have as much impact if she just turned out to be his cousin or some random person.

Leia and Han mention that they sent Ben off to train with Luke once they discovered his force sensitivity, and hinted that they kind of blame themselves for not being there for him. At some point after he turned, they split and went off to do "what they did best", which is a classic symptom of grief. The thing is, they knew Ben was still alive. He may have turned to the dark side and thus more likely to do anything to get him back, so why go through this stage of grief? Why run from the problem? Well, what if they had a force sensitive daughter too, that this daughter went off to train just like Ben, and was assumed dead at the hands of her brother during his turn to the dark side? Luke, escaping from the massacre, takes the young girl to a desert world similar to his old home in much the same way Obi-Wan brought him to Tatooine, but worried for her safety, he decides to leave rather then involve her. He vanishes, and Han and Leia assume their daughter has long been dead. They go through a stage of grief that makes them give up on each other, and also give up on the son that they think murdered their daughter.

The only road block is, why would Leia or Han not recognize her? Well, the first obvious answer is they had not even seen her since she was a little girl, nor would Luke have told them he put her on Jakku, so as far as they know she is a random woman from some dust ball. So why wouldn't Leia (or even Kylo) be able to pick up she is her daughter through the Force? Well, Rey's own force powers are only just now manifesting, and if we remember the OT, Vader didn't figure out Luke was his son till sometime in the second movie, after Luke himself had started to become more proficient in the Force. As far as the first movie was concerned the little upstart that was with Obi-Wan was just some orphan from Tatooine. It may even be the Leia DOES know (she did go right to Rey to hug her real close after Han died, which is kind of weird since that was the first time they technically have ever met), but feels dumping such knowledge on her now would only feed her pain and make her possibly fall to the dark side herself, and that she needs real training with Luke to prevent that.

It could be that Luke is the father, they may go that direction still, but since this trilogy seems to be playing off the plot threads of the original, it's more likely Kylo Ren and Rey are going to have a much closer relationship, to play on the Luke / Vader dynamic.

Jan 4, 2016#312

Null

Rey and Leia embracing was one of the finest moments of the movie, for me. The rest of the Resistance is celebrating their survival and victory, but these two women can feel each other's grief: one losing the love of her life, the other a mentor and hero, and they just hold each other, sharing their grief and sorrow, separate from the cheering masses. A simple but emotionally powerful moment, and the sort of thing the prequels lacked entirely.

Jan 4, 2016#313

Ravenpoe

Null said:
Rey and Leia embracing was one of the finest moments of the movie, for me. The rest of the Resistance is celebrating their survival and victory, but these two women can feel each other's grief: one losing the love of her life, the other a mentor and hero, and they just hold each other, sharing their grief and sorrow, separate from the cheering masses. A simple but emotionally powerful moment, and the sort of thing the prequels lacked entirely.

I liked that scene, but I felt like Leia should have been hugging Chewie.

Jan 4, 2016#314

Hailey Knight

Ravenpoe said:
I liked that scene, but I felt like Leia should have been hugging Chewie.

Chewie was the one I felt the most for when Han died.

Jan 4, 2016#315

AshburnerX

Zero Esc said:
Chewie was the one I felt the most for when Han died.

Han and Chewie always had a Cory/Shaun (Boy Meets World) thing going on, in my opinion... like, they aren't gay or anything, but it's clear who the life partner is for Han.

Jan 4, 2016#316

jwhouk

klew said:
Rey is cloned from Luke's DNA. We know someone found his/Anakin's lightsaber, why not with Luke's hand still attached?

Oh, dear... I really, really hope this is NOT the avenue they go down in VIII...

Jan 4, 2016#317

ScytheRexx

jwhouk said:
Oh, dear... I really, really hope this is NOT the avenue they go down in VIII...

This reminds me... Did anyone else notice when they were talking about Finn's defection, one of the commanders made mention of clone soldiers? Sadly the actual sentence does not stand out in my memory, but I think it was Hux to Phasma, with him saying that they should bring in the clone troopers, to which Phasma reassured him that her troops were top notch and that she would handle the situation.

Makes me curious if that was a throw away line or a much larger breadcrumb we will see in the coming movies.

Jan 4, 2016#318

Cheesy1

ScytheRexx said:
This reminds me... Did anyone else notice when they were talking about Finn's defection, one of the commanders made mention of clone soldiers? Sadly the actual sentence does not stand out in my memory, but I think it was Hux to Phasma, with him saying that they should bring in the clone troopers, to which Phasma reassured him that her troops were top notch and that she would handle the situation.

Makes me curious if that was a throw away line or a much larger breadcrumb we will see in the coming movies.

Actually, I think that was Kylo suggesting to the general that maybe they should use clones after Finn defects and helps Poe escape.

Jan 4, 2016#319

ScytheRexx

Cheesy1 said:
Actually, I think that was Kylo suggesting to the general that maybe they should use clones after Finn defects and helps Poe escape.

Ah yes I think you are right. Either way, interesting to hear of the existence of clone troopers so far in the future. I wonder if they are related to the old Jango troopers, or a new breed.

Jan 4, 2016#320

Ravenpoe

ScytheRexx said:
Ah yes I think you are right. Either way, interesting to hear of the existence of clone troopers so far in the future. I wonder if they are related to the old Jango troopers, or a new breed.

I'm pretty sure that line was just there to tell everyone that Finn isn't a clone. The line is the annoyed officer guy saying "We should have used clones," referring to the First Order's stormtroopers, and Phasma assures him that her men are better than any clone. It's letting the audience know that the First Order stormtroopers are not clones, but children taken from homes and raised to be soldiers.

Jan 5, 2016#321

Hailey Knight

Ravenpoe said:
I'm pretty sure that line was just there to tell everyone that Finn isn't a clone. The line is the annoyed officer guy saying "We should have used clones," referring to the First Order's stormtroopers, and Phasma assures him that her men are better than any clone. It's letting the audience know that the First Order stormtroopers are not clones, but children taken from homes and raised to be soldiers.

And it was a line I know I needed, because earlier when Fin tells Poe that all he had was a serial number, I assumed they'd gone back to using clones.

Jan 5, 2016#322

General Specific

ScytheRexx said:
Ah yes I think you are right. Either way, interesting to hear of the existence of clone troopers so far in the future. I wonder if they are related to the old Jango troopers, or a new breed.

Ren stated that they "should have" used clones rather than conscripts. I took it to mean that there are not currently any clones being used or made. With the Prequel clones, their growth was accelerated and so all of those would probably be dead by now.

Jan 5, 2016#323

blotsfan

Kidnapping children to raise them still seems weird and overly expensive. Can't they just raise an army at the imperial academy?

Jan 5, 2016#324

fade

"Uh, how do we do that?"
"Well, sir, when Stormtrooper M4L3 and Stormtrooper F3M4L3 love each other very much, they share a special hug."

Jan 5, 2016#325

strawman

My little theory about R2 sensing the saber couldn't be correct because Finn takes the saber to the resistance long before Rey shows up. There's a possibility that R2 takes some time to wake up, but I'm guessing my theory isn't as good as the director's theory, which is simply that BB8 asks R2 if he has the rest of the map, and it takes some time for R2 to awaken and restart based on that stimulus.

Jan 5, 2016#326

drawn_inward

Especially if R2 is still running Windows '95 which takes forever to boot up.

Jan 5, 2016#327

ScytheRexx

I don't think his stimulus was the lightsaber, but was just Rey herself.

There are too many "coincidences" in all this. While I don't think Luke globe-trotted the galaxy setting up all the pieces, he likely had ways of influencing events through the Force for the last twenty years. First, he knew he had to leave Rey (if it was Luke as theorized) on Jakku as a way to protect her, and asked Lor San Tekka to watch over her from a nearby village. He transferred and deleted the section of the map that shows where he was going from R2, and then gave it to Lor San Tekka, not telling him why he holds it but knowing that someday it would be important for Rey. He then asked R2 to go into low power mode with the rest of the map, until the day his sensors picked up Rey, completing it for her.

Second, on his way to the First Temple, he gave his fathers lightsaber to Maz Kanata to hold in her vault, having claimed it himself at some point (this is likely why Kylo instantly recognized it, because Luke likely promised it to him at some point during training). Once again, he does not tell Maz why she holds it, but that she will know who he is leaving it for. Then, once on the mysterious planet, he uses the Force to guide events. Rey would need a fast, sturdy ship to escape Jakku in the future, and it so happens there is one ship Luke trusts more then any other, the Millenium Falcon. Even the plot of the movie being so similar to A New Hope could be Luke attempting to have Rey experience similar trials that he himself went through in his youth, hoping that it will temper her spirit and stop her from falling to the Dark Side. It worked for him, right?

Of course, it would be that Luke has little to nothing to do with it, and that the Force itself is pushes through all these coincidences, but there is obviously way more to what is going on here then just dumb luck.

Jan 5, 2016#328

fade

drawn_inward said:
Especially if R2 is still running Windows '95 which takes forever to boot up.

Jan 5, 2016#329

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
Even the plot of the movie being so similar to A New Hope could be Luke attempting to have Rey experience similar trials that he himself went through in his youth, hoping that it will temper her spirit and stop her from falling to the Dark Side. It worked for him, right?

And we need to get this to JJ, just in case it's not what he's planning, because it's perfect...

Jan 5, 2016#330

AshburnerX

General Specific said:
Ren stated that they "should have" used clones rather than conscripts. I took it to mean that there are not currently any clones being used or made. With the Prequel clones, their growth was accelerated and so all of those would probably be dead by now.

Some of the clone troopers from the Clone Wars (including Rex, sort of the Anakin's go-to-trooper) are involved in the proto-Rebellion in Star Wars: Rebels. They are indeed fairly old men by that point, which is a couple of years before A New Hope takes place. They are probably ether dead or too old to fight by The Force Awakens.

Jan 5, 2016#331

Null

The Kamino-made clones that formed the Grand Army of the Republic age at around twice the normal baseline for human males. At the Battle of Geonosis that started The Clone Wars, the first batch of finished clones were 10 years old, biologically age 20. At the time Order 66 is given, the veteran clones are 13/26, with replacements between that and 10/20. By the time of the Battle of Yavin IV, they would be 32 years old and biologically anywhere from mid-40s to early 70s (depending on stress, exposure to chemicals, wounds, etc). By the time of The Force Awakens, they would chronologically be close to 70 and biologically dead of old age / complications of the cloning process. Now, in the EU, there were some clones who figured out a way to reverse the accelerated aging, so that they'd age at the rate of normal humans. It involved stealing enormous amounts of data and kidnapping quite a few scientists.

Jan 7, 2016#332

General Specific

Something has been nagging at me about this movie and I really couldn't put my finger on it until recently. It's Starkiller Base and how tacked-on it is. A New Hope was all about the Death Star and how it was coming to kill the rebels. Everything led up to that. Tension was built throughout the whole movie.

In The Force Awakens, it was all about finding Luke. Where is he? Why did he leave? How do we get to him? And oh yeah, there's a giant super weapon that needs to be destroyed. Done? Ok, good, now back to Luke, we found him! Let's go!

The big super weapon was too easily destroyed.

I think the series would have been better served if the First Order was still finishing their base. We'd get to see it, get an idea of it's size and power, but that'd be it. We'd have the confrontation, maybe the Resistance damages it so it delays the completion, whatever. But build up to it being used. Movie 2 becomes all about training forces to fight it. Rey goes off to train with Luke, etc. And then halfway or toward the end of that movie, it gets used on the Republic. As it is, we have no connection to the Republic and so feel nothing when they are destroyed. If we are at least introduced to them and see them gearing up to fight this weapon and think we are going to get a massive fleet engagement like in Return of the Jedi AND THEN they get wiped out, we have instant tension.

Oh no! The Republic is now gone/in disarray and the Resistance has to fight the big super weapon on their own, with no real support from capital ships or an organized government. Much better tension and the audience cares much more about what is going to happen. We would need a new reason to get Han onto Starkiller Base to face down Kylo Ben, but it could be just for that and to rescue Rey. This also saves Captain Phasma from being such a push-over since she would still be knocking around the base with Gen. Hux.

As a bit of an aside, does anyone else also think they completely wasted Max Von Sydow in a throw away role? He would have been much better as Gen. Hux just simply due to his age. As it is, he shows up and is killed pretty damn quick. Domhnall Gleason could still be in it as Ren's main adversary within the First Order in a slightly different role. Colonel Hux (the General's son or nephew or something). But I digress from my main point.

I still really like the movie and it is a welcome change from the crap that was the prequels. A few tweaks to it and it could have been really good. They played it a little too safe, IMO, to make it great.

Jan 7, 2016#333

strawman

I agree that they don't showcase starkiller base, but that's simply a problem of scale which appears in all the movies. It's a planet sized base, can contain the energy of half a sun, but only has a few dozen fighters and fighter pilots? Please. It's a planet with a breathable atmosphere, there should be millions of pilots and fighters they can scramble within minutes in the immediate vicinity of any sensitive facilities.

This director, and lucas, both would rather write for and depict small skirmishes than large battles. For instance, the scenes in Lord of the Rings with huge fields covered with soldiers, or the space battle scenes in galactica, or the space battle scenes from ender's game - armies so large you can't see them all at once unless you're such a distance away that you can't make out any individual unit.

The first order should have had at least such an army on that base. They built a stupid star sucker into the planet core, it contains the energy of a star, it has the volume of a black hole, and they only have a few dozen fighters?

The problem is larger than this, though. There are a lot of times that space is compressed and it feels like star systems are mere light minutes away, or that huge ships are crewed by a dozen people, or that small colonies are magically self-sufficient on arid dessert planets that have literally nothing to trade or export, nevermind huge cities.

This, however, is the universe of Star Wars, and I think it's intentional. To some degree it feels like an oral tradition - a story told through a line of people that only remember the relevant and important details, and has a necessary loss of information to keep the story going. If it were a book you'd question the narrator's position in this world, and whether they are a trustworthy narrator. Given that it's a movie, you can ask the same question of the writers and directors, and I think you can adjust your suspense of disbelief more easily if you assume that you're looking through the lens of an unreliable detached observer.

Jan 7, 2016#334

Just Me

The way I see it, the First Order but a lot of effort, money and ressources into Starkiller base and a lot less of these into capital ships. With the Republic leaderless and in disarray and the Resistance without proper support it would be easy to clean up any leftovers and gather control.

I do see the flaws mentioned above though, just wanted to bring in another bit of reason into Star Wars.

Also, Hux as well as Kylo show the state of the First Order: fresh and new, younf and wild. Kids raised on myths of the Empire by the First Order.

Jan 7, 2016#335

Ravenpoe

stienman said:
This, however, is the universe of Star Wars, and I think it's intentional. To some degree it feels like an oral tradition - a story told through a line of people that only remember the relevant and important details, and has a necessary loss of information to keep the story going. If it were a book you'd question the narrator's position in this world, and whether they are a trustworthy narrator. Given that it's a movie, you can ask the same question of the writers and directors, and I think you can adjust your suspense of disbelief more easily if you assume that you're looking through the lens of an unreliable detached observer.

Well, it was a long time ago. And in a galaxy far away.

Jan 7, 2016#336

strawman

Ravenpoe said:
Well, it was a long time ago. And in a galaxy far away.

Which is just the geek way of saying, "Once upon a time..."

Jan 7, 2016#337

Hailey Knight

On Starkiller Base: I think that level of large scale criticism is better saved for after this new trilogy is done. If they do Starkiller 2.0 in Episode IX, then I think it's valid criticism. But we have no idea what they're doing with the next two movies, so I think it's a little early to say "this trilogy would be better served." We don't know that, because we haven't seen this trilogy yet.

On scale: I prefer this. I love the Lord of the Rings movies and those battles are awe-inspiring, but littering the field with troops/ships is what the prequel trilogy did, and showed that having more of something doesn't make it better. (Especially lightsabers.) These smaller skirmishes let us get close in even with the people outside the spotlight. Here, I was like "oh no, weird-looking dude died!" whereas in LOTR during the Fields of Pelennor battle, I really only gave a shit about the name characters.

Jan 7, 2016#338

Gruebeard

General Specific said:
Something has been nagging at me about this movie and I really couldn't put my finger on it until recently. It's Starkiller Base and how tacked-on it is.

All those references to the original trilogy, now you've made me see a reference to the prequels: Starkiller Base is Darth Maul.

Jan 8, 2016#339

GasBandit

Jan 8, 2016#340

bhamv3

GasBandit said:

"You're afraid..."

Jan 8, 2016#341

Terrik

Jan 8, 2016#342

LittleKagsin

Force Awakens has officially over-taken Avatar for highest grossing, domestic, movie of all time: $764 million to Avatar's $760 million.

Pretty interested to see if this is a trend for the future - if the other films in the series will do this well.

(I like reading all of your guys' thoughts and theories on the movie because my brain can only think one thing will watching it.)

Jan 8, 2016#343

drawn_inward

LittleKagsin said:
my brain can only think one thing will watching it.)

What 'one' thing? Cosplay? or that you want to hug Chewbacca?

Jan 8, 2016#344

LittleKagsin

drawn_inward said:
What 'one' thing? Cosplay? or that you want to hug Chewbacca?

Oh, it's a little more carnal than that. Yeah, my desire to jump Kylo Ren's bones is pretty distracting. It's a problem. :whistling:

And then second, all I can think of is figuring out a way to cosplay BB-8. Still wracking my brain trying to figure it out.

So, I mean, cosplay is a part of it.

Jan 8, 2016#345

Ravenpoe

LittleKagsin said:
Oh, it's a little more carnal than that. Yeah, my desire to jump Kylo Ren's bones is pretty distracting. It's a problem.

And then second, all I can think of is figuring out a way to cosplay BB-8. Still wracking my brain trying to figure it out. So, I mean, cosplay is a part of it.

Now I'm imagining hardcore Kylo on BB-8 action, and I'm strangely OK with it.

BB-8 gives a thumbs up afterwards.

Jan 8, 2016#346

LittleKagsin

Ravenpoe said:
Now I'm imagining hardcore Kylo on BB-8 action, and I'm strangely OK with it.

BB-8 gives a thumbs up afterwards.

Forever jealous of BB-8!! :cry:

Haha, and a thumbs up after would be the perfect response. *giggling*

Jan 8, 2016#347

Frank

LittleKagsin said:
Oh, it's a little more carnal than that. Yeah, my desire to jump Kylo Ren's bones is pretty distracting. It's a problem.

And then second, all I can think of is figuring out a way to cosplay BB-8. Still wracking my brain trying to figure it out. So, I mean, cosplay is a part of it.

You could just watch Girls and pretend it's younger Kylo.

Jan 8, 2016#348

MindDetective

LittleKagsin said:
And then second, all I can think of is figuring out a way to cosplay BB-8. Still wracking my brain trying to figure it out. So, I mean, cosplay is a part of it.

Jan 8, 2016#349

LittleKagsin

Frank said:
You could just watch Girls and pretend it's younger Kylo.

I mean...I'm not saying that's what I'm doing......but..just finished season 2 yesterday. :ninja:

MindDetective said:

Haha, yeah, I've seen that before. And while construction wise it's AMAZING, it's just not a cosplay of BB-8 to me. It's fashion, which is lovely, but it's just not the same.

Jan 8, 2016#350

Bubble181

So, anyone want to go and sign this petition to bring back George Lucas at the head of Star Wars?

....yeah, thought not.

Jan 8, 2016#351

Celt Z

I'm not going to say JJ Abrams's version was perfect, but even in the original trilogy, thing went better when George Lucas wasn't directing. I wonder how many of these just think the new Star Wars had too many women, and ol' George will fix that! :rolleyes:

And then there's this moment of genius in the comments/supporters:

The new movie...turned Han [and Luke] into irresponsible men who run from problems.

Have you ever SEEN the original Star Wars movies?? That was one of Han's defining characteristics! Or did you just forget the whole Jabba/Boba/carbonite subplot?

Jan 8, 2016#352

Ravenpoe

I wonder how many of those signatures and comments are actually George Lucas.

Jan 8, 2016#353

Bowielee

Jan 8, 2016#354

Frank

Fucking off and disappearing when you screw up is basically a tenet of being a Jedi.

Jan 8, 2016#355

Hailey Knight

That petition is dumb for so many reasons, but one not yet noted is the part about Episode IX being a farewell to Star Wars ... hahaha NO. Disney did not make this kind of purchase to just make three movies and quit. There are movies coming out between each episode, and one after, and there will probably be more in the future. There's going to be a bigger section in Disney parks, probably another TV show, and so on. I wouldn't be shocked if we got movies to establish whatever they roll over the EU with, like replacement Old Republic and such. Maybe prequel trilogy remakes to fix that shit too.

It's going to be unending so long as it makes money, and it'll be making money for a long. This isn't the beginning of goodbye to Star Wars, this is the beginning of Star Wars moving in and never leaving the house.

Jan 8, 2016#356

Tinwhistler

Zero Esc said:
TDisney did not make this kind of purchase to just make three movies and quit.

Someone needs to make a comic of Luke shaking Mickey's hand and saying something like "And the Sith thought *they* had the secret to living forever"

Jan 8, 2016#357

HCGLNS

Just saw it. Very happy with it.

Jan 9, 2016#358

Gruebeard

Celt Z said:
I'm not going to say JJ Abrams's version was perfect, but even in the original trilogy, thing went better when George Lucas wasn't directing.

I find the original theatrical release of Star Wars to be the most enjoyable Star Wars movie. It's the only one that was ever directed by a young, creative George Lucas. I think that's kinda key.

Jan 9, 2016#359

Null

The problem being that, while George Lucas is a fine world-creator and excellent visual effects designer, he is not a particularly good writer and a poor director (when it comes to directing actors). Lawrence Kasdan retouched the scripts to improve the dialogue, and in the original trilogy, people could tell George "no, that's a bad idea." With the prequels, he had complete control, and the result was, well, the prequels.

Jan 9, 2016#360

phil

Saw it for the 2nd time the other day. The more I think about it the more I want Rey to not have important parents or an important bloodline. While her being a kenobi or palpatine would be neat, I'd rather the entire galaxy not be a pawn between a handful of families, you know?

I'd rather her be just an orphan whom Luke dropped off on Jakku to keep her safe after the New Jedi Order went belly up. If she has to be related to someone I hope it's Poe. She had a home made doll that looked like an Xwing pilot, so maybe her mother or father was a great pilot like I'm sure Poe's parent(s) were.

Jan 9, 2016#361

Frank

Completely agree on the parentage. Fuck the Skywalkers.

Jan 9, 2016#362

Hailey Knight

I think a lot of us feel that way; it just seems that they're leading towards her being someone's relative. Unfortunately.

Jan 9, 2016#363

Bubble181

Other people touching the lightsaber didn't suddenly have flashbacks and -forwards, so yes, it seems quite clear she's the heir/successor. This doesn't necessarily have to be by blood, but... if not, they'd have to come up with a pretty good explanation/reason -and that's something Star Wars is notoriously bad at. So...

Jan 9, 2016#364

Frank

Bubble181 said:
Other people touching the lightsaber didn't suddenly have flashbacks and -forwards, so yes, it seems quite clear she's the heir/successor. This doesn't necessarily have to be by blood, but... if not, they'd have to come up with a pretty good explanation/reason -and that's something Star Wars is notoriously bad at. So...

Other people weren't force users.

Jan 9, 2016#365

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
if not, they'd have to come up with a pretty good explanation/reason -and that's something Star Wars is notoriously bad at. So...

Because the force.

There, that wasn't so hard.

Jan 9, 2016#366

HCGLNS

Ravenpoe said:
Because the force.

There, that wasn't so hard.

That's the only reason I saw for it.

Jan 9, 2016#367

Hailey Knight

Ravenpoe said:
Because the force.

"The Force doesn't work that way!"

Jan 9, 2016#368

Bowielee

Regarding Rey and the lightsaber vision. Do people completely forget that pre and post cognition are the entire basis of Anakin's turn to the dark side? People strong with the force have visions all the time.

Jan 9, 2016#369

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
Regarding Rey and the lightsaber vision. Do people completely forget that pre and post cognition are the entire basis of Anakin's turn to the dark side? People strong with the force have visions all the time.

This people didn't:

Frank said:
Other people weren't force users.

Jan 9, 2016#370

HCGLNS

Based on the trailers I thought Finn and Rey were both Jedi.

Jan 9, 2016#371

strawman

There's a difference between Jedi and a being strong in the force. Rey and Kylo are clearly strong in the force, but neither are Jedi.

Poe is very likely strong in the force - you don't get to be that good a pilot unless you have really good "intuition".

It's clear that anyone can handle a lightsaber, but usually it's restricted to the Jedi because to be able to hit blaster shots you have to have that precognition and the training.

Against another sword or melee user, though, it not much worse a weapon than any other melee weapon, and you needn't be a Jedi to be somewhat successful.

It's clear Finn isn't trained in swordplay, though, so while he's able to use it somewhat defensively, his continual pining for a blaster reflects his skills and preferred weapon.

But I doubt they are going to have him be a Jedi or strong force user, they need a contemporary to Rey to show off the difference and have two characters that can explain things to each other that the audience needs to know. If they both become the same thing that tool goes away.

Besides, they already had a high ranking black Jedi, so they've checked that political correctness box and don't need to turn Finn into someone extra special just to prove they aren't racist.

Jan 9, 2016#372

Charlie Don't Surf

stienman said:
Besides, they already had a high ranking black Jedi, so they've checked that political correctness box and don't need to turn Finn into someone extra special just to prove they aren't racist.

great post!

Jan 9, 2016#373

Cheesy1

Jan 9, 2016#374

Cajungal

Cheesy1 said:
View attachment 20135

Oh my God...

Jan 9, 2016#375

Cheesy1

Cajungal said:
Oh my God...

Even during the first time I saw that scene, all I kept thinking was, "Damn, Chewie sure was quick to just fucking blast Han's kid in the gut! You'd think he'd have at least a slight moment of hesitation considering he was probably like an uncle to Ben when he was growing up." So this comic makes more sense to me.

Jan 9, 2016#376

Just Me

This comis is so accurate. I used to draw Star Destroyers just like the one in the upper left corner...

On the other hand, I saw no problem with Chewie going full berserker mode without hesitation. He's a wookie after all, Ben was lucky he didn't get his arm ripped off after he was shot. Chewie's rage probably also contributed to him not aiming properly and simply going for center of mass targeting.

Jan 9, 2016#377

Gruebeard

Just Me said:
Chewie's rage probably also contributed to him not aiming properly and simply going for center of mass targeting.

I don't think it was rage at all. It was cold calculation: After all, Chewie's lived through all the trilogies,and he can't help but see History Repeating. And he knows that if he kills Kylo Maul now there's just gonna be a 4 armed villain to take his place. Maybe even 6 arms given the inflation that's grown the Death Star from a small moon to a planet.

Better the Sith you know, eh?

Jan 9, 2016#378

Hailey Knight

Chewie's gun has killed people in one hit before, so Kylo is lucky not to have died from even an abdomen shot.

HCGLNS said:
Based on the trailers I thought Finn and Rey were both Jedi.

I thought the Jedi story was going to be a Stormtrooper turned Jedi, which would've been cool. It was also cool to see a normal person handling a lightsaber against a trained Force wielder, even though he lost.

Jan 9, 2016#379

blotsfan

stienman said:
Besides, they already had a high ranking black Jedi, so they've checked that political correctness box and don't need to turn Finn into someone extra special just to prove they aren't racist.

You know, considering how Boyega was clearly the best actor in the film, don't you think its possible that they chose him because they liked him and not just to "check a box"?

Jan 9, 2016#380

Hailey Knight

blotsfan said:
You know, considering how Boyega was clearly the best actor in the film, don't you think its possible that they chose him because they liked him and not just to "check a box"?

He was referring to Samuel L Jackson as Mace Windu.

Jan 9, 2016#381

ScytheRexx

So I was reading some into this movie and it turns out there is a reason "TR8R" went all baton happy on Finn, he is FN-2199 aka "Nines", a trooper that trained with Finn in the prequel book "Before the Awakening". This info makes that whole sequence make a lot more sense to me, since I thought it was downright silly for some supposed random trooper to just throw down his gun to have a melee fight with Finn in the middle of a battleground. Also, remember in the beginning of the movie when that one random stormtrooper gets killed right next to Finn, and wipes the bloody hand print on Finn's helmet? Turns out that was a trooper named FN-2003 AKA "Slip" who was probably the closest thing Finn had to a friend among the First Order. Which once again, makes the sequence of him breaking down make a lot more sense.

Does remind me why I dislike movies that have rather large scenes that rely so much on supplementary material.

Jan 9, 2016#382

strawman

blotsfan said:
You know, considering how Boyega was clearly the best actor in the film, don't you think its possible that they chose him because they liked him and not just to "check a box"?

Boyega was _fantastic_, and I hope to see more of him not only in further Star Wars, but other films as well.

In a round about way I'm knocking the social justice warriors and Hollywood who responds to them. Star Wars has long had a racially diverse cast, yet even today people are hounding the director and studios for not satisfying their own personal perspective.

Hollywood, for its part, is responding in often over the top ways to try and satisfy the most vocal social justice warriors.

I am very happy with the Star Wars we were given. There are people who are not, and if we didn't already have Samuel l Jackson the Jedi, and Finn _didn't_ turn out to be Jedi, people would be whining about it, and Disney might choose to make them happy.

In trying to figure out the future path of the characters I am taking into account the current social climate these movies are being made in.

Sorry to have offended.

Jan 9, 2016#383

Hailey Knight

I don't really see SJW desires reflected in Hollywood. Indie films, sure, but not wide release movies, especially at the frequency we get wide release movies.

I mean, if we're talking Tumblr SJWs for example, then probably a third of movie protagonists would be transgender.

The only people I've heard complaining about the new Star Wars characters' demographics are Men's Rights Activists complaining about this film having a female protagonist being anti-male and white supremacist groups carrying an illogical boycott that having a black main character is anti-white. Their boycott did not exactly meet its target impact goals against the film's box office. The MRA may have also had a boycott, I don't remember.

Jan 9, 2016#384

Bubble181

Those are both idiotic reasons.
All of the other Star Wars movies have had strong female leads (comparatively); Rey pretty much fits in the Leia-Amidala mold as far as I'm concerned. Having her be the main protagonist is a nice change. Had all three suddenly been women, I'd have said it was a strange choice and I might've "gotten" some of the complaints (just as I'd have understood if they'd suddenly gone to three men). As is, I don't see any reason to complain. Skin color wise...Man, I just can't muster the energy to care one way or another what color a character is unless it's important to the story or somehow "abnormal" (as in, black kid from two white parents or vice versa). Heck, aren't we supposed to think Twi'lek are sexy? Brown is definitely not harder to ignore than blue or green

Jan 9, 2016#385

Hailey Knight

Bubble181 said:
All of the other Star Wars movies have had strong female leads (comparatively); Rey pretty much fits in the Leia-Amidala mold as far as I'm concerned.

Rey had a personality, so the only way she'd fit into an Amidala mold is by [clever analogy that utilizes a well-known Star Wars mechanism or line of dialogue that also insults the prequel trilogy]

Jan 10, 2016#386

AshburnerX

ScytheRexx said:
So I was reading some into this movie and it turns out there is a reason "TR8R" went all baton happy on Finn, he is FN-2199 aka "Nines", a trooper that trained with Finn in the prequel book "Before the Awakening". This info makes that whole sequence make a lot more sense to me, since I thought it was downright silly for some supposed random trooper to just throw down his gun to have a melee fight with Finn in the middle of a battleground. Also, remember in the beginning of the movie when that one random stormtrooper gets killed right next to Finn, and wipes the bloody hand print on Finn's helmet? Turns out that was a trooper named FN-2003 AKA "Slip" who was probably the closest thing Finn had to a friend among the First Order. Which once again, makes the sequence of him breaking down make a lot more sense.

Does remind me why I dislike movies that have rather large scenes that rely so much on supplementary material.

Which still leaves the LAST member of the squad to turn up later.

Jan 10, 2016#387

Charlie Don't Surf

Hollywood doesn't do shit to or for "social justice warriors", y'all. They have less money, power, and influence than the people that tweet about White Genocide. Either there's money to be made, maybe the minority gave the best audition and is the best actor/actress. OR EVEN MAYBE they genuinely think it's important for all children to see heroes that look like them once in a while.

Jan 10, 2016#388

bhamv3

Zero Esc said:
Rey had a personality, so the only way she'd fit into an Amidala mold is by [clever analogy that utilizes a well-known Star Wars mechanism or line of dialogue that also insults the prequel trilogy]

Rey had a personality, so the only way she'd fit into an Amidala mold is if Amidala had been cloned on Kamino and then had midichlorians surgically implanted.

How's that?

Jan 10, 2016#389

Hailey Knight

bhamv3 said:
Rey had a personality, so the only way she'd fit into an Amidala mold is if Amidala had been cloned on Kamino and then had midichlorians surgically implanted.

How's that?

Jan 10, 2016#390

sixpackshaker

bhamv3 said:
Rey had a personality, so the only way she'd fit into an Amidala mold is if Amidala had been cloned on Kamino and then had midichlorians surgically implanted.

How's that?

Oh, Amidala had the midichlorians injected into her on a regular basis...

i feel dirty

Jan 10, 2016#391

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
Oh, Amidala had the midichlorians injected into her on a regular basis...

i feel dirty

Jan 10, 2016#392

Sparhawk

Zero Esc said:
Rey had a personality, so the only way she'd fit into an Amidala mold is by [clever analogy that utilizes a well-known Star Wars mechanism or line of dialogue that also insults the prequel trilogy]

I'd argue that Amidala was the weakest of the female leads because of the way that Lucas wrote the last two movies. She went from strong, to weak, to absolutely nothing (my heart is breaking....) even remotely resembling the character we first met. A real pity that Lucas did that to her.

Jan 10, 2016#393

Bubble181

Sparhawk said:
I'd argue that Amidala was the weakest of the female leads because of the way that Lucas wrote the last two movies. She went from strong, to weak, to absolutely nothing (my heart is breaking....) even remotely resembling the character we first met. A real pity that Lucas did that to her.

This. Amidala held her one in the first movie - she's one of the best politicians we're shown, only outsmarted by the Chancellor, but so is everyone else. She's determined, stubborn, single minded, willing to die for her people, all that jazz you want in a leader in times of trouble, and she's also somewhat competent with a blaster and unafraid to get her hands dirty. Admittedly, for a large part of the film she's just tagging along, but in TPM she's at least as strong a character as Leia in ANH. Leia spends most of that movie being the damsel in distress (who is stubborn and determined).

Jan 10, 2016#394

Hailey Knight

Sparhawk said:
I'd argue that Amidala was the weakest of the female leads because of the way that Lucas wrote the last two movies. She went from strong, to weak, to absolutely nothing (my heart is breaking....) even remotely resembling the character we first met. A real pity that Lucas did that to her.

Another example of why that petition is so stupid.

Jan 10, 2016#395

Frank

Bubble181 said:
Those are both idiotic reasons.
All of the other Star Wars movies have had strong female leads (comparatively); Rey pretty much fits in the Leia-Amidala mold as far as I'm concerned. Having her be the main protagonist is a nice change. Had all three suddenly been women, I'd have said it was a strange choice and I might've "gotten" some of the complaints (just as I'd have understood if they'd suddenly gone to three men). As is, I don't see any reason to complain. Skin color wise...Man, I just can't muster the energy to care one way or another what color a character is unless it's important to the story or somehow "abnormal" (as in, black kid from two white parents or vice versa). Heck, aren't we supposed to think Twi'lek are sexy? Brown is definitely not harder to ignore than blue or green

Rey is Luke.

Finn is Leia.[DOUBLEPOST=1452488698,1452488300][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Hollywood doesn't do shit to or for "social justice warriors", y'all. They have less money, power, and influence than the people that tweet about White Genocide. Either there's money to be made, maybe the minority gave the best audition and is the best actor/actress. OR EVEN MAYBE they genuinely think it's important for all children to see heroes that look like them once in a while.

They're beginning to learn the lesson of Fast Furious Seven, which still has an international gross higher than Star Wars (Not for long, but currently) and ended up being one of the biggest films of last year.

All built on appealing to more than just white guys.

Jan 10, 2016#396

AshburnerX

Frank said:
Rey is Luke.

Finn is Leia.[DOUBLEPOST=1452488698,1452488300][/DOUBLEPOST]

Finn is alternatively Leia and Han. His whole "I just want to get out before this goes bad" thing is Han straight out of A New Hope.

Jan 11, 2016#397

Celt Z

Frank said:
They're beginning to learn the lesson of Fast Furious Seven, which still has an international gross higher than Star Wars (Not for long, but currently) and ended up being one of the biggest films of last year.

All built on appealing to more than just white guys.

I'd like this to be true, but remember both Fast and Star Wars had very well-established cinema universes to support them. I'd like to see more one-shot movies do the same things. I don't know how many more times they have to prove "appealing to more than white guys" ISN'T a risk. For example, the only two movies still beating TFA are Avatar and Titanic, and it wasn't mainly guys' money putting Titanic there.

Jan 11, 2016#398

sixpackshaker

..but nearly every guy that went to see Titanic bought two tickets.

Jan 11, 2016#399

drawn_inward

Also, F7 had that death of Paul Walker emotional stuff added to it.

Jan 11, 2016#400

Charlie Don't Surf

the Fast and Furious movies didn't launch into the stratosphere, box office wise, until they became more ensemble movies starting around the 5th and stopped focusing just on Walker/Disesel so heavily. They became the multi-ethnic Avengers before Avengers was... ya know, the white person Avengers.

Jan 12, 2016#401

Bubble181

A twitter conversation between Very Lonely Luke and Emo Kylo Ren

Jan 12, 2016#402

GasBandit

Jan 12, 2016#403

drawn_inward

JASMINE! JASMINE!

Jan 12, 2016#404

sixpackshaker

If we only had a white knight to ride in here and save these princesses from the patriarchy. Then to comment that a man with a vagina is not an insult.

Jan 12, 2016#405

Null

@grub - shaker's referring to Charlie, I'm pretty sure.

Jan 12, 2016#406

grub

I knew that, I was trying to imply that I knew of nobody that had that shtick. My favorite Disney princess is Leia.

I thought the character of Ren/Ben was pretty good. Big fish, small pond(only force user). Idolizes something he knows nothing about, believes he is special and entitled to throw a fit and cause a ridiculous amount of damage. Believes he is in too deep to get out at this point in life. I wouldn't be surprised (dissapointed yes) if there was a redemption of some sort in his future.

Jan 12, 2016#407

Dei

GasBandit said:

Jan 12, 2016#408

Gruebeard

My favourite princess is also Troy McClure's.

Jan 12, 2016#409

bhamv3

My favorite Disney Princess is Rachel Summers.

Shut up, she is a princess!

Jan 14, 2016#410

PatrThom

Crossing over with that other thread, can't post it there because spoilerz.

--Patrick

Jan 16, 2016#411

@Li3n

At first i though that was Snoke, but closer look it's a Zabrak... then again, the way his face looked in the film he could be one i guess. Also, crossguard sabers aren't just a Kylo tihng now i guess:

Jan 16, 2016#412

AshburnerX

Star Wars Rebels is completely underrated. If it wasn't stuck on Disney XD (and thus relegated to the back of cable providers, if you get it at all) then I think it would be getting a lot more hype.

Jan 16, 2016#413

Sparhawk

AshburnerX said:
Star Wars Rebels is completely underrated. If it wasn't stuck on Disney XD (and thus relegated to the back of cable providers, if you get it at all) then I think it would be getting a lot more hype.

Also have to keep in mind that it's now taking place 35 (or so) years in the past, before New Hope. So some don't want to watch because, "We already know what happened then." They're wrong, but they still talk dumb like that.

I love the show, and have really enjoyed the stories they have been telling. I wasn't so sure, at first, about Ashoka coming in as a regular character, but they're keeping the focus on The Ghost and the core group.

Jan 16, 2016#414

AshburnerX

Sparhawk said:
Also have to keep in mind that it's now taking place 35 (or so) years in the past, before New Hope. So some don't want to watch because, "We already know what happened then." They're wrong, but they still talk dumb like that.

I love the show, and have really enjoyed the stories they have been telling. I wasn't so sure, at first, about Ashoka coming in as a regular character, but they're keeping the focus on The Ghost and the core group.

Ashoka sort of HAD to come on, as they completely dropped her story with Ventress when Clone Wars ended. I'm just glad we'll get a finish to her story... though I think it'd be cool if she showed up as an old master in the new Star Wars too.

Jan 16, 2016#415

sixpackshaker

Sparhawk said:
Also have to keep in mind that it's now taking place 35 (or so) years in the past, before New Hope. So some don't want to watch because, "We already know what happened then." They're wrong, but they still talk dumb like that.

I love the show, and have really enjoyed the stories they have been telling. I wasn't so sure, at first, about Ashoka coming in as a regular character, but they're keeping the focus on The Ghost and the core group.

No Rebels is just before the Battle of Yavin. Lando, Vader, Yoda and Leia have all been or will soon be on the show.

I want to know how they are going to write out 3 Jedi from the rebellion.

Jan 16, 2016#416

AshburnerX

sixpackshaker said:
No Rebels is just before the Battle of Yavin. Lando, Vader, Yoda and Leia have all been or will soon be on the show.

I want to know how they are going to write out 3 Jedi from the rebellion.

What he said. I suspect that the events of the finale for Season 3 will coincide with the events of Rogue One, with Season 4 ending at the Battle of Yavin. After that, they'll probably end the show and do something else.

Jan 17, 2016#417

Dei

Jan 17, 2016#418

WasabiPoptart

I'm late to this party as I just saw the movie last night.

OMG THEY KILLED OFF HAN!!!

Okay I feel better.

Jan 18, 2016#419

WasabiPoptart

Spoiler? In the spoiler thread? Uh...

Jan 18, 2016#420

Hailey Knight

WasabiPoptart said:
Spoiler? In the spoiler thread? Uh...

I think it was just to be silly, not to indicate a request for spoiler tags.

Jan 18, 2016#421

Gruebeard

Zero Esc said:
I think it was just to be silly, not to indicate a request for spoiler tags.

That's why I would've rated it Spoiler, if I could've rated it Spoiler.

Jan 19, 2016#422

WasabiPoptart

Zero Esc said:
I think it was just to be silly, not to indicate a request for spoiler tags.

I had a rather irritating morning, so nothing was funny at the time. Carry on!

Jan 21, 2016#423

GasBandit

Jan 21, 2016#424

GasBandit

[DOUBLEPOST=1453363523,1453363168][/DOUBLEPOST]

Jan 21, 2016#425

Frank

This may be the hardest I've laughed at a video in a long time. Holy shit is some of this crap ridiculous.

Jan 22, 2016#426

Null

Star Wars The Force Awakens, Anime Opening style. This works insanely well.

http://digg.com/video/star-wars-anime-intro

Jan 22, 2016#427

Mathias

Frank said:
This may be the hardest I've laughed at a video in a long time. Holy shit is some of this crap ridiculous.

13:22

The droids waxed Vaders helmet to distract Palpatine from the shortcuts they used on his suit due to the budgetary limitations imposed by Palpatine... Haha that sounds like a Dilbert comic.

Jan 22, 2016#428

GasBandit

Null said:
Star Wars The Force Awakens, Anime Opening style. This works insanely well.

http://digg.com/video/star-wars-anime-intro

Ha ha ha ha.. it's from the cringetastic season two Code Geass opening. The people aren't nearly noodly enough![DOUBLEPOST=1453484676,1453484493][/DOUBLEPOST]

Mathias said:
13:22

The droids waxed Vaders helmet to distract Palpatine from the shortcuts they used on his suit due to the budgetary limitations imposed by Palpatine... Haha that sounds like a Dilbert comic.

Ha ha yeah.. We're gonna build a SECOND Death Star, even bigger than the first, but, you know, don't spend money on this one guy's battlesuit.

It did kind of irk me that they didn't put two and two together that EmPal SuRecon was short for the Emperor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center, once they finally read the whole ridiculous thing out loud halfway through.

Jan 22, 2016#429

AshburnerX

The Empire was run completely on a tiny budget... from stormtrooper rifles that were notoriously inaccurate to TIE fighters that had no shielding and no amtosphere (you flew in heated, air supplied flight suit), the Empire skimped on everything because they need MILLIONS of things. It doesn't even make sense to cut it; they are a pan galatic empire, they had MORE than enough resources for the best of EVERYTHING.

Jan 22, 2016#430

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
The Empire was run completely on a tiny budget... from stormtrooper rifles that were notoriously inaccurate to TIE fighters that had no shielding and no amtosphere (you flew in heated, air supplied flight suit), the Empire skimped on everything because they need MILLIONS of things. It doesn't even make sense to cut it; they are a pan galatic empire, they had MORE than enough resources for the best of EVERYTHING.

I don't buy it. That sounds like more fanboy equivocational fill-in-the-gaps headcanon. First of all, stormtroopers were absolutely precise and deadly when they weren't under direct orders to let the targets escape. I'll grant you that tie fighters were cheap, but that's also because they had unlimited manpower. And while the fighters might have been cheap, the Star Destroyers (and Death Stars!) certainly were not.

But even if they had millions of other things, they only had one Dark Lord of the Sith, and it only made sense to max his stats out as best they could.

Although, when he was put together, the empire wasn't really fully established yet, I guess... it was still in the transition between republic and empire, so... I dunno, maybe Palpatine had to hide Vader's surgery off the books or something? I dunno.

Really, the whole thing sounds like somebody not even affiliated with Lucasfilm just manufactured out of whole cloth to try and explain/tie together minute details from the movies and other canonical sources.

That's really the thing about Star Wars... SO MUCH of it is just shit fans made up and nobody said "no" so it stayed headcanon long enough to be thought of as actual canon.

Jan 22, 2016#431

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
But even if they had millions of other things, they only had one Dark Lord of the Sith, and it only made sense to max his stats out as best they could.

Although, when he was put together, the empire wasn't really fully established yet, I guess... it was still in the transition between republic and empire, so... I dunno, maybe Palpatine had to hide Vader's surgery off the books or something? I dunno.

Vader was very much off the books. No one was supposed to know he was Anakin Skywalker except a chosen few because it would have raised questions about why a Jedi (who were enemies of the Empire and sentenced to death on the battlefield) was walking around. Fuck, no one knew Palpatine was a Sith except for the remaining Jedi and his own personal agents. The only reason to stick Vader in that suit instead of proper cybernetics was to torture Anakin and hide his identity... I mean, Vader had his own personal, tricked out TIE-Avenger. That most have cost the Empire more than a dozen of his suits.

Jan 22, 2016#432

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
Vader was very much off the books. No one was supposed to know he was Anakin Skywalker except a chosen few because it would have raised questions about why a Jedi (who were enemies of the Empire and sentenced to death on the battlefield) was walking around. Fuck, no one knew Palpatine was a Sith except for the remaining Jedi and his own personal agents. The only reason to stick Vader in that suit instead of proper cybernetics was to torture Anakin and hide his identity... I mean, Vader had his own personal, tricked out TIE-Avenger. That most have cost the Empire more than a dozen of his suits.

Quite so. That Vader had his own shielded prototype Tie Fighter undermines the whole "Vader on a budget" thing. I'm pretty sure that was just something somebody pulled out of their ass and put on a wiki.

Jan 22, 2016#433

Frank

GasBandit said:
Quite so. That Vader had his own shielded prototype Tie Fighter undermines the whole "Vader on a budget" thing. I'm pretty sure that was just something somebody pulled out of their ass and put on a wiki.

Either way, it's fucking hilarious.

Jan 22, 2016#434

Reverent-one

GasBandit said:
Quite so. That Vader had his own shielded prototype Tie Fighter undermines the whole "Vader on a budget" thing. I'm pretty sure that was just something somebody pulled out of their ass and put on a wiki.

Apparently that came from Darth Vader: A 3-d Construction log, some children's cross-section/"Inside Darth Vader's suit" book. According to the wiki, the "budget" thing was an excuse even the droids working on Vader didn't buy, they suspected it was intended so Palpatine could keep Vader in check. So it looks like it was meant to be a not really convincing "official" reason in-universe to cover up the truth.

Jan 22, 2016#435

evilmike

TIL: The practical effects used in The Force Awakens even included using stop motion to recreate the Dejarik board.

(via Wired)

Jan 23, 2016#436

Null

evilmike said:
TIL: The practical effects used in The Force Awakens even included using stop motion to recreate the Dejarik board.

(via Wired)

By the original effects artists, too, I think I read somewhere.

Jan 30, 2016#437

Dei

Jan 30, 2016#438

phil

GasBandit said:
I don't buy it. That sounds like more fanboy equivocational fill-in-the-gaps headcanon. First of all, stormtroopers were absolutely precise and deadly when they weren't under direct orders to let the targets escape. I'll grant you that tie fighters were cheap, but that's also because they had unlimited manpower. And while the fighters might have been cheap, the Star Destroyers (and Death Stars!) certainly were not.

But even if they had millions of other things, they only had one Dark Lord of the Sith, and it only made sense to max his stats out as best they could.

Although, when he was put together, the empire wasn't really fully established yet, I guess... it was still in the transition between republic and empire, so... I dunno, maybe Palpatine had to hide Vader's surgery off the books or something? I dunno.

Really, the whole thing sounds like somebody not even affiliated with Lucasfilm just manufactured out of whole cloth to try and explain/tie together minute details from the movies and other canonical sources.

That's really the thing about Star Wars... SO MUCH of it is just shit fans made up and nobody said "no" so it stayed headcanon long enough to be thought of as actual canon.

I agree it gets annoying. I feel like a lot of fandoms do it too but Star Wars has been around long enough that they have every little thing covered. Like in A New Hope there's the scene where Luke and his uncle are at the Jawa droid market, and they're about to buy this one droid but it shorts out so they get R2D2 instead. There's a comic that explains that scene and how the first droid was force sensitive and had a vision that R2D2 had to go with Luke to save the galaxy and so it purposefully shorted itself out.

Jan 30, 2016#439

Sparhawk

phil said:
I agree it gets annoying. I feel like a lot of fandoms do it too but Star Wars has been around long enough that they have every little thing covered. Like in A New Hope there's the scene where Luke and his uncle are at the Jawa droid market, and they're about to buy this one droid but it shorts out so they get R2D2 instead. There's a comic that explains that scene and how the first droid was force sensitive and had a vision that R2D2 had to go with Luke to save the galaxy and so it purposefully shorted itself out.

Skippy the Jedi Droid by Peter David.

Jan 30, 2016#440

GasBandit

phil said:
I agree it gets annoying. I feel like a lot of fandoms do it too but Star Wars has been around long enough that they have every little thing covered. Like in A New Hope there's the scene where Luke and his uncle are at the Jawa droid market, and they're about to buy this one droid but it shorts out so they get R2D2 instead. There's a comic that explains that scene and how the first droid was force sensitive and had a vision that R2D2 had to go with Luke to save the galaxy and so it purposefully shorted itself out.

Sparhawk said:
Skippy the Jedi Droid by Peter David.

Exactly. That's exactly what I'm talking about. There's so much stuff that I'd call canon-by-unrefuted-fanon and some of it is really groanworthy.

Jan 30, 2016#441

Sparhawk

Peter wrote the story as a joke. Originally published as prose in his "But I digress..." column in Comic Buyers Guide. People liked it, Dark Horse asked to include it in the Star Wars Tales comic, and they did it. Wasn't ever meant to be canon, but it struck the right nerve at the right time.

Anyway, everyone knows that Chopper from Rebels is the true Jedi Droid!

Feb 2, 2016#442

fade

Wait, doesn't R2D2 straight up kneecap the R5 droid? You see the little thingie pop up on his head.

Feb 6, 2016#443

Cheesy1

Feb 14, 2016#444

Dei

Feb 14, 2016#445

Ravenpoe

Dei said:
View attachment 20441

Too soon...

Feb 14, 2016#446

GasBandit

Ravenpoe said:
Too soon...

I'M NEVER GONNA DANCE AGAIN
GUILTY FEET HAVE GOT NO RHYTHM

Feb 14, 2016#447

bhamv3

GasBandit said:
I'M NEVER GONNA DANCE AGAIN
GUILTY FEET HAVE GOT NO RHYTHM

Are these the original lyrics, or have you translated them from Shyriiwook?

Feb 14, 2016#448

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
I'M NEVER GONNA DANCE AGAIN
GUILTY FEET HAVE GOT NO RHYTHM

Yes, yes, we all like Deadpool.

Feb 16, 2016#449

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
I'M NEVER GONNA DANCE AGAIN
GUILTY FEET HAVE GOT NO RHYTHM

--Patrick

Mar 23, 2016#450

General Specific

Frank said:
Yeah, I know, I meant that it may be canon, but it's still extended universe, like the current run of Marvel comics or all the books that are sure to be released. Anything going forward is canon apparently.[DOUBLEPOST=1451765661,1451765488][/DOUBLEPOST]And because I'm having fun seeing some of the sadder shit being posted online about this movie, here's another gem.

So has anyone heard from these people? That movie is out now and getting bad to neutral-at-best reviews.

Apr 1, 2016#451

Hailey Knight

In case anyone didn't know, digital is out today, physical Blu Ray on Tuesday.

I say it that way because I didn't know; just happened to be on Amazon and saw it. Will make a cool surprise for my wife next week when it arrives in the mail

Apr 2, 2016#452

Frank

I am fucking stoked for the Red Letter Media review.

Apr 6, 2016#453

fade

Apr 6, 2016#454

GasBandit

fade said:

Bluuuuebs.

Apr 6, 2016#455

fade

GasBandit said:
Bluuuuebs.

"Butthole eyes" was my favorite quote.

Apr 9, 2016#456

Hailey Knight

Watched this tonight, first time since the theaters. It's a damn fine movie and I'm really excited to see what's coming.

Apr 9, 2016#457

Cheesy1

Yeah, I watched my DVD of it for the first time last night, and I still love it.

Apr 10, 2016#458

jwhouk

Jeph Jacques had a great summary:

TFA is even more fun to watch the 2nd time because you’re not thinking “please don’t suck, please don’t suck” the whole way through

Apr 10, 2016#459

Gryfter

I agree just watched it again for the second time and I still enjoyed it. Even noticed some things I hadn't before. If what's to come is of the same caliber I am in for a while.

Apr 10, 2016#460

Dei

My dad bought my daughter the BB-8 toy, so of course we had to watch the DVD with it.

Apr 10, 2016#461

Hailey Knight

Gryfter said:
I agree just watched it again for the second time and I still enjoyed it. Even noticed some things I hadn't before. If what's to come is of the same caliber I am in for a while.

Same here; noticed things I hadn't the first time and it was great.

The movie goes quick too. Does not feel like 2 hours and 15 minutes. We had to pause at one point and I couldn't believe we were already over an hour in.

Apr 10, 2016#462

Celt Z

Was last night officially "Rewatch TFA Night"? We watched it for the 1st time since seeing it in theaters last night, and it was Li'l Z first viewing. I enjoyed it just as much as the first time, but we both really enjoyed Li'l Z getting into it:

Apr 10, 2016#463

Sparhawk

Dei said:
My dad bought my daughter the BB-8 toy, so of course we had to watch the DVD with it.

I still have to do this, and I will.

I actually re-watched on Tuesday night, stayed up too late.

Apr 10, 2016#464

Piotyr

I don't know the statute of limitations on spoilers, so here's a funny picture that is a TFA spoiler...

Apr 10, 2016#465

Hailey Knight

Piotyr said:
I don't know the statute of limitations on spoilers, so here's a funny picture that is a TFA spoiler...

Spoiler is in the title, so the thread is considered click at your own risk.

Funny thing I've noticed, though most of the film is shared left and right, including the very end, the one major death in the film is something people have been really well-behaved about.

Apr 10, 2016#466

ThatNickGuy

jwhouk said:
Jeph Jacques had a great summary:

TFA is even more fun to watch the 2nd time because you’re not thinking “please don’t suck, please don’t suck” the whole way through

Honestly, having seen it twice in theatres (second time because my girlfriend hadn't seen it), all I saw was more examples of how the movie parallels so close to A New Hope. It was really grating to me. Still enjoyable, but that's all I saw: one giant retread.

Apr 10, 2016#467

MindDetective

ThatNickGuy said:
Honestly, having seen it twice in theatres (second time because my girlfriend hadn't seen it), all I saw was more examples of how the movie parallels so close to A New Hope. It was really grating to me. Still enjoyable, but that's all I saw: one giant retread.

I'm actually impressed with how the hit the same beats as a New Hope but with totally different character arcs. It is a different story with the same beats. I find it clever rather than grating, from a writing perspective.

Apr 10, 2016#468

blotsfan

Its like poetry. It rhymes.

Apr 10, 2016#469

PatrThom

ThatNickGuy said:
Still enjoyable, but that's all I saw: one giant retread.

My only complaint was that there were many moments where it was obvious that the reason for a thing happening the way it did was because someone, somewhere said, "At this point in the script, wouldn't it be cool if xxx happened?" And then it was cool, but you could kinda tell it was cool because someone wanted it to be cool here, not because it was genuine cool (as measured on the Fonzimeter).

--Patrick

Apr 10, 2016#470

Hailey Knight

MindDetective said:
I'm actually impressed with how the hit the same beats as a New Hope but with totally different character arcs. It is a different story with the same beats. I find it clever rather than grating, from a writing perspective.

I agree, especially from a writing perspective. The structure and pacing of the original Star Wars is not easy to replicate artfully. Many movies try to follow similar beats of other films--the best examples I can think of some are some of the shitty animated films that came out in the 90s like The Swan Princess and Quest for Camelot, that tried to ape the beats from successful Disney films, but not actually earning any of those moments, or having logical reasons for them to happen, or understanding why they worked in the first place.

The Force Awakens works both as a sequel, its own story, and executing those elements of the original movie. That isn't something you can do with a copy-paste or by accident.

But even then, The Force Awakens doesn't work exactly as a retread. The big death is in Act 3 rather than Act 2. There's no Act 3 redemption. It has a Yoda-type figure, which isn't something A New Hope had. These are things we remember fondly from the OT and TFA doesn't ape that mark for mark.

There were also a lot of new ideas. I love the fledgling Jedi loose on an enemy ship. The First Order treated her like they had a xenomorph running amok, and in a way a Jedi is much more dangerous. Kylo's lack of control over himself, which is so not Vader. A Stormtrooper who makes a choice between what's right and wrong instead of doing what he's told. There are even standout secondary characters, like Moz Kadan, and especially General Hux, who isn't the kind of character that gets much promotion but was really a boost to the movie.

I know it's easy to praise TFA in the face of the prequels, but I'm going to do it anyway, because even movies I've liked of recent years, like Marvel movies, don't always have scenes that really get you immersed and investing. The panic Finn had when he saw Rey being taken away by Kylo--that felt so real. I was so into the moment that it wasn't until after the scene that I could appreciate the acting. All over this movie, the characters feel so human, which is something Star Wars has been starved of for my entire lifetime until now, since I wasn't even born until after Return of the Jedi.

But this brings back to the beats of the story that Mind Detective mentioned, because that's really fucking important. If you've got a clusterfuck mess like any of the prequel films, what you do in writing is yank the skeleton of the story out, examine it, and ask "is it doing this, this, and this?" Just basic storytelling stuff. If not, that whole mess of details doesn't matter, because at its core it isn't working. The Force Awakens works, at its core, its details, up and down the layers. That it works is far more important than whether we've seen this core before.[DOUBLEPOST=1460302006,1460301924][/DOUBLEPOST]

Celt Z said:
Was last night officially "Rewatch TFA Night"? We watched it for the 1st time since seeing it in theaters last night, and it was Li'l Z first viewing. I enjoyed it just as much as the first time, but we both really enjoyed Li'l Z getting into it:
View attachment 20852

It was the first weekend since the movie came out on DVD/Blu Ray, so for all of us who didn't buy it digitally last Friday, this was the first real opportunity to watch it. That'd be my guess

Apr 10, 2016#471

Gryfter

The call backs to New Hope don't bother me as it provides comparison for contrast to the ways it's different from New Hope. For instance, in ANH, the Empire and Vadar are seen as a competent Military body that while bloated and set in it's ways, are run by experienced commanders making smart decisions (looking at Tarkin here). Contrast that with the First Order, who have the shiny uniforms and toys but otherwise look like they are being run by a bunch of Academy frat boys who are young and inexperienced. Their plan is not original because they are copying everything the have from the Empire. Even the older commanders in the Order look like old Empire soldiers who have been brought on to try and make everything like the Empire, complete with Kylo Ren doing his best Darth Vadar impersonation so they have a pseudo Sith lord . Having them have such a similar dastardly plan to the original Death Star shows that they haven't really adapted at all. Even though their base is technically bigger, it still has a flaw that can be exploited showing that they haven't learned anything from the fall of the Empire.

Apr 10, 2016#472

Hailey Knight

Gryfter said:
The call backs to New Hope don't bother me as it provides comparison for contrast to the ways it's different from New Hope. For instance, in ANH, the Empire and Vadar are seen as a competent Military body that while bloated and set in it's ways, are run by experienced commanders making smart decisions (looking at Tarkin here). Contrast that with the First Order, who have the shiny uniforms and toys but otherwise look like they are being run by a bunch of Academy frat boys who are young and inexperienced. Their plan is not original because they are copying everything the have from the Empire. Even the older commanders in the Order look like old Empire soldiers who have been brought on to try and make everything like the Empire, complete with Kylo Ren doing his best Darth Vadar impersonation so they have a pseudo Sith lord . Having them have such a similar dastardly plan to the original Death Star shows that they haven't really adapted at all. Even though their base is technically bigger, it still has a flaw that can be exploited showing that they haven't learned anything from the fall of the Empire.

That's a good point. It's not just the story from an outside POV, but within the story we have characters and bodies of government that are trying their best to reclaim the glory of the past AKA make the galaxy great again. Han Solo provides his audience voice of "so it's another Death Star" "so we blow it up, there's always a way to do that."

I'll give the First Order credit though--compared to the exhaust vent on the Death Star, Starkiller Base's oscillator was pretty hard. It took the Resistance fleet to get attention, but their firepower wasn't enough to pierce the thing, then an insurgent team going in on-foot to blow a small hole in the thing, but that wasn't enough to bring it down, and then the Resistance's best pilot had to do a near-impossible slip-in, fly a ring around and blast every support structure, and hope he escaped with his life before that damn building would finally come down.

Something I noticed last night that I missed: when the Starkiller planet is destroyed, the energy stabilizes again into a star. That was a nice touch, though I wonder if the realignment of that energy would have an effect on that system. Probably no worse than the removal of the star entirely, of course.

I know the next movie likely won't get into much politics because no one wants to start THAT again, but with no Senate, I'm curious what state the galaxy will be in, if there are likely to be more wars now or if the different planets will just start a New New Republic. Or join the First Order, which I'm sure is what the First Order wanted.

Apr 10, 2016#473

Null

Yeah, the First Order repeating the Empire's moves is entirely done on purpose. With Luke Skywalker gone for years, they essentially figured that there was no real obstacle to them - they didn't count on the surviving heroes rising once again to the occasion, and they didn't count on a new wild card force user showing up. And as happens when a bunch of overconfident callow youths are running things, it all quickly blows up in their faces. But they still struck a potentially mortal blow to the New Republic - the system that was housing its government and fleet is was annihilated. So it's not so much a retread of ANH so much as it is an evolution of it. And really the story could go in a lot of different directions from here.

Apr 10, 2016#474

CynicismKills

"We'll add the swamp in post, just get running."

Apr 10, 2016#475

Ravenpoe

CynicismKills said:
"We'll add the swamp in post, just get running."

I came here to post that

Apr 10, 2016#476

Hailey Knight

CynicismKills said:
"We'll add the swamp in post, just get running."

Damn, she's strong.

Apr 10, 2016#477

CynicismKills

Ravenpoe said:
I came here to post that

YOUR FAKE INTERNET POINTS BELONG TO ME, NOW

Apr 10, 2016#478

PatrThom

Ravenpoe said:
I came here to post that

HOW'S IT FEEL, HUH?

--Patrick

Apr 10, 2016#479

bhamv3

Guys, that is clearly just Mark Hamill wearing a "Daisy Ridley carrying Mark Hamill" costume.

Apr 10, 2016#480

PatrThom

I want to see him show up to his next interview like that.

--Patrick

Apr 10, 2016#481

Hailey Knight

bhamv3 said:
Guys, that is clearly just Mark Hamill wearing a "Daisy Ridley carrying Mark Hamill" costume.

That's like, two Mark Hamills worth right there.*

*I am not an expert at the metric system.

Apr 10, 2016#482

PatrThom

CynicismKills said:
"We'll add the swamp in post, just get running."

Talented with Photoshop this one is.

--Patrick

Apr 10, 2016#483

bhamv3

Zero Esc said:
That's like, two Mark Hamills worth right there.*

*I am not an expert at the metric system.

I, uh, I wasn't being serious, just in case there was any doubt. But I did get this lovely gif out of it, so I think everything worked out in the end.

Apr 11, 2016#484

Frank

All I can say about that gif is the same thing I did when I posted the original video a loooong time ago in the nSFW clothed women thread.

Oh Daisy, you are using the force on me.

Apr 11, 2016#485

HCGLNS

So we watched it as a family on Friday and I am troubled.

If they are about to embrace the youthful pupil storyline, where Rey eventually defeats the Sith master. That means Luke has to die and I don't want that.

Apr 11, 2016#486

blotsfan

Yeah...Luke and Leia aren't making it out of this trilogy alive.

Apr 11, 2016#487

Charlie Don't Surf

HCGLNS said:
So we watched it as a family on Friday and I am troubled.

If they are about to embrace the youthful pupil storyline, where Rey eventually defeats the Sith master. That means Luke has to die and I don't want that.

I thought Han already filled that role.

Apr 11, 2016#488

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I thought Han already filled that role.

Han was Obi-wan. Luke is Yoda. Both die.

Apr 11, 2016#489

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Han was Obi-wan. Luke is Yoda. Both die.

Well, at least that means when Luke dies, it'll be of natural causes.

--Patrick

Apr 11, 2016#490

HCGLNS

PatrThom said:
Well, at least that means when Luke dies, it'll be of natural causes.

--Patrick

Yeah. The long term contract he had to sign means he'll be making these movies till the end of time.

I hope

Apr 11, 2016#491

Dei

It's not as if Luke has to be alive to be in the movies.

Apr 11, 2016#492

evilmike

HCGLNS said:
Yeah. The long term contract he had to sign means he'll be making these movies till the end of time.

It's good that he didn't kill Darth Vader or he would have been unemployed.

Apr 11, 2016#493

strawman

I was disappointed we didn't get a third star wars song from weird al.

Apr 11, 2016#494

CynicismKills

stienman said:
I was disappointed we didn't get a third star wars song from weird al.

Yet.

Apr 11, 2016#495

evilmike

stienman said:
I was disappointed we didn't get a third star wars song from weird al.

Not official, but I hope this will help you wait:

Apr 11, 2016#496

strawman

CynicismKills said:
Yet.

Yeah, I'm not going to hold my breath.

Apr 11, 2016#497

PatrThom

evilmike said:
It's good that he didn't kill Darth Vader or he would have been unemployed.

Nothing in the SWU is as dangerous as being the father of a Jedi.

--Patrick

Apr 11, 2016#498

CynicismKills

stienman said:
Yeah, I'm not going to hold my breath.

Yeah I was mostly joking. He's on Comedy Bang! Bang! now, and it seems like he's winding down on new material in general.

Apr 11, 2016#499

Yoshimickster

He's also doing a lot of voice work, being the main character of that new "Milo Murphy's law" coming out in October.

Apr 11, 2016#500

GasBandit

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