I deleted the PM from the thread. I believe that's all that was deleted before the lock.
[Rant] Need a place to post concerns/complaints
- Thread starter Adam
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figmentPez
Staff member
My reputaiton is in the gutter here anyway. I'm more concerned with being able to set a standard for what is acceptable and uncacceptable when it comes to commenting on cosplay, and as long as it keeps getting mocked, and the line pushed further and further, it's not going to be possible to make any sort fair rules at all.
GasBandit
Staff member
Did it never occur to you that if the rules were reasonable, or at least enforced in a reasonable manner, maybe they wouldn't be constantly mocked?
You know, during the depression, it was illegal to sell food without a permit... but the cops looked the other way at all the apple carts the unemployed set up to try to feed their family.
figmentPez
Staff member
I didn't delete any posts in that thread today. Any posts that were deleted were taken down by person who originally made them.
figmentPez
Staff member
Nope, because the rules that were being mocked weren't what I actually said were rules. They were gross-distortions of what had actually been laid-out. No one bothered to ask for clarification on what is actually expected, they just started raging against their preconceptions of what the rules were going to be.
figmentPez
Staff member
When you make psychic predictions of how you expect me to act in the future, and then base your current reaction on how you think I'm going to act, then no I don't care what you say. This isn't the future-crime division.
Pez, I think you're a good guy who's heart is in the right place here. But honestly, you need to walk away from this one. Okay? Any attempts at justifying or defending what happened just make you look worse at this point, and this plain and simple isn't worth the fight over it. You made a little mistake, that's fine, it happens, but by making it a matter of principle and insisting that you're in the right is hurting you.
Ain't broke, don't fix, thread locked.
...is how I see that one ending.
Be mindful I'm keeping as close an eye on this as I can while at work.
GasBandit
Staff member
That's how so very many of the best (and worst) threads end.
GasBandit
Staff member
How many of them are
The logic that led to Pez being "in charge" of the cosplay subforum, if applied universally, would have put me in charge of the political subforum years ago. But hey, there are plenty of other subforums if people don't like it, so hell, why not?
FTFY
I'm just stepping away from the forum. While I appreciate Dave, and have been a big supporter, I'm sure somewhere on the internet animated gifs are a big hit! I have my niche, I will find it elsewhere! Sans the ludicrosity that is internal fiefdoms.
does "the forum" = all of halforums, or just the cosplay one
this is important
this is important
GasBandit
Staff member
If you got that I wanted to be mod of the political forum from what I posted, you went the exact opposite way of the actual meaning.
GasBandit
Staff member
Because people are arguing about it. And have been arguing about it. With rising vehemence. And it spills over into every thread and every topic. To the point where even I, who until today had not opened a cosplay subforum thread for how many weeks I can't even begin to guess, can see what the real problem is.
That subforums exist at all.
At the risk of having the thread locked before I can finish my piece...
FPez, you have a hard job, made harder by setting your standards so high. Everyone has a moment where their manager is caught eating in their office, or the policeman double-parks, or the President accidentally says "fuck" into an open mic. It's an embarrassment, certainly. But even though the authority figure slips up, nobody thinks that voids the rule.
Each one could be totally legit, too. The manager might be diabetic. The policeman might be investigating something. And it's not the President's fault the mic was open. In your case, your comment was hardly "red" at all. At most, it was eggshell pink. But because it contained some detectable amount of red, people ribbed you about it. Some of your actions lately have upset your peers (regardless of whether legit or not) and so these people were right there to point it out and probably happy (or ecstatic) to do so.
Now here's what should've happened. You would've blushed, caught staring too long at the cookie jar. It doesn't matter whether you were staring because you were thinking of the delicious cookies within or because you were awestruck by the way the potter managed to layer the glaze to faithfully recreate the iridescence of a butterfly's wings. You were seen staring, and so you earned some peer ribbing. At this point, you're supposed to blush, realize (and admit!) that nobody's perfect, had a laugh with everyone, and then gone back to the job of Mod with eyes opened to the possibility that it might be OK for folks to push up against the rule-barrier, so long as everyone knows that it's not OK to break through that barrier. Doing this would have served to garner respect from your peers AND it would have served to show exactly where that barrier is and how "stretchy" it is.
Instead it looks (to many) like you went into Dictator Denial Mode, trying to cover it up and pretend it didn't happen, and since this board is ultimately a (loose) democracy, you were promptly met with quite a bit of resistance. It happens. Unbelievably, it's still salvageable. All it will take is for everyone involved...everyone*...to behave like the adult Humans they are. No workplace, no community, no city, no spacecraft crew, nor vacation caravan is made up of people who 100% love each other all the time. People do stuff other people don't like all the time. So long as they don't make a habit of it, they shouldn't be punished endlessly for it, either. Hey, everyone? Get over it. If that means getting over yourself first, then so be it.
--Patrick
*This includes you, Dear Reader.
EDIT: FWIW, I have an incredibly thick skin, the patience of Job, and no plans to leave any time soon. I'm more than willing to keep coming back and post sensible discussions until you snap and pray for ragequit.
FPez, you have a hard job, made harder by setting your standards so high. Everyone has a moment where their manager is caught eating in their office, or the policeman double-parks, or the President accidentally says "fuck" into an open mic. It's an embarrassment, certainly. But even though the authority figure slips up, nobody thinks that voids the rule.
Each one could be totally legit, too. The manager might be diabetic. The policeman might be investigating something. And it's not the President's fault the mic was open. In your case, your comment was hardly "red" at all. At most, it was eggshell pink. But because it contained some detectable amount of red, people ribbed you about it. Some of your actions lately have upset your peers (regardless of whether legit or not) and so these people were right there to point it out and probably happy (or ecstatic) to do so.
Now here's what should've happened. You would've blushed, caught staring too long at the cookie jar. It doesn't matter whether you were staring because you were thinking of the delicious cookies within or because you were awestruck by the way the potter managed to layer the glaze to faithfully recreate the iridescence of a butterfly's wings. You were seen staring, and so you earned some peer ribbing. At this point, you're supposed to blush, realize (and admit!) that nobody's perfect, had a laugh with everyone, and then gone back to the job of Mod with eyes opened to the possibility that it might be OK for folks to push up against the rule-barrier, so long as everyone knows that it's not OK to break through that barrier. Doing this would have served to garner respect from your peers AND it would have served to show exactly where that barrier is and how "stretchy" it is.
Instead it looks (to many) like you went into Dictator Denial Mode, trying to cover it up and pretend it didn't happen, and since this board is ultimately a (loose) democracy, you were promptly met with quite a bit of resistance. It happens. Unbelievably, it's still salvageable. All it will take is for everyone involved...everyone*...to behave like the adult Humans they are. No workplace, no community, no city, no spacecraft crew, nor vacation caravan is made up of people who 100% love each other all the time. People do stuff other people don't like all the time. So long as they don't make a habit of it, they shouldn't be punished endlessly for it, either. Hey, everyone? Get over it. If that means getting over yourself first, then so be it.
--Patrick
*This includes you, Dear Reader.
EDIT: FWIW, I have an incredibly thick skin, the patience of Job, and no plans to leave any time soon. I'm more than willing to keep coming back and post sensible discussions until you snap and pray for ragequit.
GasBandit
Staff member
It's the underlying problem in several things, this among them. Sure, the guy they happened to put in charge of it turned out to be a swastika-spangled white knight, but who'd be better? Would anyone be better?
...Would no-one be better? Or rather, the same ones as everything else?
Why even have a subforum where 93% of the content (and 99% of the view count) is contained within a single thread (and there are only 5 threads in total)? Is cosplay so subversive or detrimental to the forum at large it has to be kept out of general? Or is it just to give one user a fiefdom over a popular topic simply by virtue of his being the most interested in that topic so that the other "real" mods don't have to deal with it? What purpose does putting political threads in their own subforum serve? Is it because they're commonly so much more rancorous than other threads? If that's the case, why isn't there a special political forum mod to ease the burden? Does any of that justify that the actual pragmatic effect of sequestering off a political subforum is that threads there can either have the same 8 posters going around ad nauseum, or just languish and die? Why couldn't all these things just be in general? People who wish there was an "ignore thread" button are routinely and patronizingly told to simply not click threads they don't want to read, yet that solution isn't good enough here. The artist's corner languishes similarly. Maybe more people would see the art if it wasn't hidden behind an extra layer of unnecessary obfuscation?
Everybody's dog piling on Pez (including me, I know), but how'd he get where he was? Somebody walled off a piece of the forum and put different rules on it. What Adam does in one part of the forum is suddenly sedition in another part, purely on whimsy of the commisar who happens to be there. If I WAS actively interested in cosplay, I have a feeling this little explosion would have happened a long time ago, rather than now... because I don't stop being GasBandit from thread to thread, and apparently that place is a rat's nest of mod-powered tripwires.
Honestly, do you know why Pez got his own forum? Because the Cosplay thread is what pulls in a large chunk of what little new business we have around here. Quite frankly, I don't see his rules as being out of line for making newbies feels safe coming here. THEN they can dip their toes in these shark infested waters and find out if it's their cup of tea.
Really, people going in and being douches simply because they don't like the fact that he got the subforum is quite frankly childish as all hell.
Do I fully agree with his decisions? No, but you know what? It's not my call to make, it's his.
Really, people going in and being douches simply because they don't like the fact that he got the subforum is quite frankly childish as all hell.
Do I fully agree with his decisions? No, but you know what? It's not my call to make, it's his.
I think calling Pez a nazi is uncalled for, Gas, and honestly I'd think that was beneath you.
Why did he get put in charge of just that subforum? Because he was posting the vast majority of the cosplay at the time. It seemed like a subject he was passionate about, and if you're going to have someone overseeing something, shouldn't it be something that they care about? Why make it into a subforum? Because it's a specific genre with limited audience - people who like cosplay, convention attendees, etc. Much like Sports are for, well, people who like sports.
What happened in that thread was a bit of a meltdown, but I don't think that subforums are to blame for it.
Why did he get put in charge of just that subforum? Because he was posting the vast majority of the cosplay at the time. It seemed like a subject he was passionate about, and if you're going to have someone overseeing something, shouldn't it be something that they care about? Why make it into a subforum? Because it's a specific genre with limited audience - people who like cosplay, convention attendees, etc. Much like Sports are for, well, people who like sports.
What happened in that thread was a bit of a meltdown, but I don't think that subforums are to blame for it.
figmentPez
Staff member
Take a look at my new post "the future of the cosplay subforum". I had the majority of that post written for months. I was trying to wait to post it until I had a queue of posts to make so that I could ensure that, for at least a little while, there would be regular updates.
You'll note that I specifically state that "You have nice legs" is an acceptable comment. That's been the standard I've been planning to make for a long time, but no one bothered to ask. They just made their twisted little assumptions, and poked me until I decided I was sick of the bruises.
figmentPez
Staff member
Nah, it'd just get pushed to the second page of the forums (or third or fourth) as soon as any artist stopped updating their thread. That'd make the art even harder to find, be less clear that we want to specifically want to encourage artists to post. A general art thread would appear more active than a sub-forum, but it would be harder to showcase an individual's work.
figmentPez
Staff member
Not my fault you haven't read the rules. I said something that I specifically said is acceptable for all, and haven't said that anyone else was wrong for saying that.
Done. My thoughts:
I think making a separate category for DC/Marvel is going to overlap with Comic/Animation/Movies/TV/Toys/Etc so much that I wonder if a separate DC/M thread is worthwhile. Otherwise I applaud the categories (especially that last one). Keep in mind that you should go into this with the mindset that the rules will need to be tweaked as time goes on (even the Constitution has Amendments) and as things change. Also remember that some cosplayers are attention-whores, and so there might come a time when you have to come down against a cosplayer or two when they're the ones who go too far.
I suppose, figmentPez, that if it comes to that, you would need to establish a separate Red Light Cosplay thread in the Hive, and let all the folks who want to be there, go there.
--Patrick
Why did this have to happen to such a great thread? FFS, now I'm annoyed.
I could say much of what I personally think of Fig and his draconian rules and I can most certainly post a copy of the most disrespectful PMs Fiz sent me when I tried to discuss issues civilly with him in the past. Maybe I should copy and paste it and let people comment on it while we're discussing this matter. Get it all out in the open, eh?
But the fact of the matter is that I'm just severely disappointed that Kags thread was closed because someone couldn't accept the fact he was mockingly called out for crossing his own rules when I was quickly chastised for making a comment about the video game character the same cosplayer was planning to take. I never mentioned anything sexual about the cosplayer directly. I don't understand how "You've got some nice stems there Ivy" is less of an issue than "When it comes to Bayonetta, the guns isn't anywhere close to what comes to min". Or maybe I'm just a retard and should fuck off, right Fiz?
So, what about Kag's thread? Can it be moved elsewhere, perhaps to General or Multimedia? Or did this drama llama bullshit made her lose interest? I don't think this is fair to her at all and I cannot believe the Staff of these forums can allow this to happen. It was one my favorite threads and it got locked by someone who clearly can't handle their forum responsibilities.
And no locks in this thread please because if this is going to get locked, I swear to you it'll only get worse. I promise it.
I could say much of what I personally think of Fig and his draconian rules and I can most certainly post a copy of the most disrespectful PMs Fiz sent me when I tried to discuss issues civilly with him in the past. Maybe I should copy and paste it and let people comment on it while we're discussing this matter. Get it all out in the open, eh?
But the fact of the matter is that I'm just severely disappointed that Kags thread was closed because someone couldn't accept the fact he was mockingly called out for crossing his own rules when I was quickly chastised for making a comment about the video game character the same cosplayer was planning to take. I never mentioned anything sexual about the cosplayer directly. I don't understand how "You've got some nice stems there Ivy" is less of an issue than "When it comes to Bayonetta, the guns isn't anywhere close to what comes to min". Or maybe I'm just a retard and should fuck off, right Fiz?
So, what about Kag's thread? Can it be moved elsewhere, perhaps to General or Multimedia? Or did this drama llama bullshit made her lose interest? I don't think this is fair to her at all and I cannot believe the Staff of these forums can allow this to happen. It was one my favorite threads and it got locked by someone who clearly can't handle their forum responsibilities.
And no locks in this thread please because if this is going to get locked, I swear to you it'll only get worse. I promise it.
GasBandit
Staff member
As I said, his being the main cosplay man at the time being the rationale for making him mod of all cosplay is no better an idea than making 2009's GasBandit lord of all political threads (given that at the time, 90% of all political content was in Gas Bandit's Political Thread).
You can fault me for the nazi references if you want. Granted, he's not exterminating minorities - what he did was lock somebody else's thread because a joke at his expense was contained within it. And he is completely unrepentant. Seems absolutely incapable of admitting what he did was ridiculous - the sort of thing people talk about when they make fun of power tripping mods on the internet. THIS is what encourages newbies to feel safe to expand their presence on the forum? A demonstration that a good natured ribbing of a mod will result in him burning a thread to the ground?
Bowiee seems to think I'm jealous of Pez. I'm not. I know what it's like to be in charge of something around here. I managed to find myself de facto administrator of the forum's minecraft server during its heyday, since nobody else had the time or inclination to maintain it. There was a time Jay nearly, literally, broke the server. I swore. I fumed. I cursed his name. I did not lock him out. Other users vandalized my stuff. I responded in kind - instead of locking them out. But you know what? If I had, I bet somebody would have griped about it in the forum, and people would have come down on me in this exact manner.
You both also seem to be laboring under the false impression that sequestering content in a subforum helps it - it does not.
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