I'm having a goddamn panic attack here...

[Adam]

Question: does that mean it seems like I'm not understanding what she's saying as well? Because I really would like to know what I'm missing...

And we used to communicate so well... it's only since she moved away from the fiance that this started happening...

Based on the information you've given in this thread, I'd say you're eager to please and understand, have made some mistakes in the past that you're trying to move forward from and that she's just focussing on the negative because she's suffering a kind of buyer's remorse that is exaggerating everything well beyond it's intention.

That said, it's all one-sided so it's hard to grok exactly what's happening in the situation. The text message conversation seems to underscore that she's a little unstable and that she's 'given up a lot' to be with you and she's angry that you haven't given up anything; making it an 'easy situation' for you. My wife made a similar decision when she moved to Canada to live with me. If things aren't always roses and candy, it's hard to say to one's self "I made the right decision" but the reality is relationships aren't all roses and candy, and there's going to be ups and downs. If her life was, as you say, full of downs previously, she may have set unrealistic expectations for her relationship with you and that reality is now a big haddock-slap in the face.

Maybe approach your questions around her problem differently. Instead of "How can I help you?" try "How can we solve this together?"

 

[Shegokigo]

She doesn't want to solve it "together" she wants him to fix it, but not tell him what or how to do it.

In her words "A REAL MAN WOULD FIGURE IT OUT FOR HIMSELF AND FIX IT WITHOUT ME TELLING HIM".

Basically she wants him to wave a magic wand and give her an entire career, or on a lesser note, put her through school and then help her find a job.

 

[strawman]

You mean her single relationship that she had been in for seven years and only considered leaving because of me? That string of past relationships?

Sorry, it's just... that was really presumptuous of you.

I don't think it's presumptuous at all:

"A stepfather of hers … abused her…"

"Her mom swears she didn't know…"

"she … thought she was lucky to have someone like her emotionally-abusive boyfriend…"

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying those relationships were her fault. I'm saying that they defined how she interacts with people she's close to.

Please re-read what you wrote here: http://halforums.com/xenforo/threads/im-having-a-goddamn-panic-attack-here.27245/#post-913966

Then think about it.

She is free.

For the first time in her life she's free of her past abusive relationships. She's not tied financially to another person. She doesn't have to listen to anyone else. She is finally taking steps on her own not only to get out of an engagement that was endangering her, but to break off the path that, from my perspective, she didn't want in the first place. She just couldn't see any other way out. Perhaps she did want that path, but not if it meant cowtowing to her benefactors and fiance.

Now, I could be way off base here, but from what you've written, exactly what you feared would happen happened - you tried to get her to break off without becoming romantic. She demanded that you step up to the plate and provide security enough for her to make this change, and you did. Then, as predicted it all blew up catastrophically.

She's not fixed - but the change that was made in her life was ultimately good. Not only that, but it happened just as you had predicted - it blew up.

The only way you could have prevented the blow up is by rejecting her. And she would now be stuck in a marriage that isn't good for her, and the only person who cheered for her freedom would, like all the others, have turned his back on her and said "no".

So suck it up. You did what you did to change her situation, and it's better now than it was before. End of story.

What happens next is up to her. She's a big girl now, and while she's still going to have significant problems, the fact that she took a step bodes well for her.

You played your part. Now exit stage left and get some help because it's obviously tearing you apart.

If you keep pestering her, she will stay away. If you leave her alone, there's a chance - perhaps small, but a chance nonetheless - that she will recognize that it wasn't your fault, that her life is better off, and that she misses having you as a friend. Don't harbor hopes of becoming romantically involved again, but it looks like you do want friendship again. If so, give her time and space. Months and years. Send her birthday cards (and don't add apologies, or questions - or anything that requires a response! Just "Thinking of you, hope you are well").

She is better off now than she was prior to your recent relationship with her. That's all.

 

[ScytheRexx]

That sounds like good advice. She does tend to bring up what happened a lot, though. Do you have any advice on how to deal with that?

I really don't. The thing about people is they are complex creatures, and they can take our intentions so many different directions. You know her the best, so you will know what might flick the switches one direction or the other, so you have to figure out the best way to approach it and make sure she stops bringing it up.

 

[Soliloquy]

I don't think it's presumptuous at all:

"A stepfather of hers … abused her…"

"Her mom swears she didn't know…"

"she … thought she was lucky to have someone like her emotionally-abusive boyfriend…"

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying those relationships were her fault. I'm saying that they defined how she interacts with people she's close to.

Please re-read what you wrote here: http://halforums.com/xenforo/threads/im-having-a-goddamn-panic-attack-here.27245/#post-913966

Then think about it.

She is free.

For the first time in her life she's free of her past abusive relationships. She's not tied financially to another person. She doesn't have to listen to anyone else. She is finally taking steps on her own not only to get out of an engagement that was endangering her, but to break off the path that, from my perspective, she didn't want in the first place. She just couldn't see any other way out. Perhaps she did want that path, but not if it meant cowtowing to her benefactors and fiance.

Now, I could be way off base here, but from what you've written, exactly what you feared would happen happened - you tried to get her to break off without becoming romantic. She demanded that you step up to the plate and provide security enough for her to make this change, and you did. Then, as predicted it all blew up catastrophically.

She's not fixed - but the change that was made in her life was ultimately good. Not only that, but it happened just as you had predicted - it blew up.

The only way you could have prevented the blow up is by rejecting her. And she would now be stuck in a marriage that isn't good for her, and the only person who cheered for her freedom would, like all the others, have turned his back on her and said "no".

So suck it up. You did what you did to change her situation, and it's better now than it was before. End of story.

What happens next is up to her. She's a big girl now, and while she's still going to have significant problems, the fact that she took a step bodes well for her.

You played your part. Now exit stage left and get some help because it's obviously tearing you apart.

If you keep pestering her, she will stay away. If you leave her alone, there's a chance - perhaps small, but a chance nonetheless - that she will recognize that it wasn't your fault, that her life is better off, and that she misses having you as a friend. Don't harbor hopes of becoming romantically involved again, but it looks like you do want friendship again. If so, give her time and space. Months and years. Send her birthday cards (and don't add apologies, or questions - or anything that requires a response! Just "Thinking of you, hope you are well").

She is better off now than she was prior to your recent relationship with her. That's all.

Ah... I thought what you meant was along the lines of "she's screwed up her past relationships in the same way," but that way makes a lot more sense. The entire context of all of the relationships in her life have been horrible, and it's through that context that she's seeing my actions.

The thing is... she's contacted me on her own a few times, but they always seem to end up the same way, assuming they don't start out that way to begin with. What I know about her from my eight years of knowing her is that she's trying to reach out and find some comfort and reassurance... but when I try to give her that, it gets interpreted as me trying to make it about me.

And, well... I do use phrases like "I know I did such and such" or "I was trying to this and that..." and "I want to help with so and so" but now that I think about it, that's not how I used to talk to her to comfort her when she was upset.

What I used to do was tell her all the great things I knew about her, and all the things she was capable of and how great she is at so many things... which she is. I stopped that during the move... and I responded to all the things she said defensively -- about "me," I suppose. When that's not what she needed. That's not the me she knew and fell in love with.

Perhaps how I need to respond when she texts me is in the affirmative about *her* rather than in the defensive about *me* or the hopeful about *us*.

It falls in line with a lot of the things she said, actually. She said she needed support and I didn't give it to her... and she tends to act like I don't know any of the good stuff about her.

But I don't want to push her away... and I don't want to say something when my input isn't welcome. But when she does text me... I might try that out.

 

[strawman]

I think you've got something there. Ignore anything she says about you, and focus on encouraging her and building her up.

Also, consider that she doesn't always tell you about a problem because she wants you to fix it - she just wants to talk about it.

More, "I know things are rough, but you'll pull through - you're strong and capable" and "Aw, that must really be disappointing..." and less "I'm sorry...", "What can I do?", and "Maybe if you...."

Either way, dude, you have to stop blaming yourself regardless of what she says. This is not fun, but it shouldn't make you dissolve into a puddle more than a few times after the initial event.

Also, and this might be out on a limb, consider sharing your problems and happenings with her when she contacts you. Make sure they aren't in any way related to your relationship or the aftermath - irrelevant work problems, etc. While she's looking for support, she is also looking to feel valued and probably a little bit as the friend she used to be to you. Share those things that won't set her off. Rarely, of course - make sure she doesn't feel like you're dumping on her when she wanted to talk - don't want to be clingy or needy - just shooting the breeze.

Some people like to talk with friends to take their minds off other things, so while she may just come at you with problems, share jokes, or videos, or whatever you used to share to make her laugh.

 

[Jay]

That's cause you were an outlet... now you're the source.

 

[Soliloquy]

That's cause you were an outlet... now you're the source.

That does make it more difficult to respond in the same way, but I should be able to figure out a way to make it work.

 

[MindDetective]

Be prepared for disappointment.

 

[Soliloquy]

Be prepared for disappointment.

Eh, maybe. Worth a try, though.

 

[Adam]

Also, we're here to be your support system for anything you need.

Except sexy times.

 

[Soliloquy]

But I like sexy times

 

[strawman]

But I like sexy times

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Except sexy times.

Aw, really? Damn, I need to cancel my plane ticket to see Jay, then.

 

[Soliloquy]

Aw, really? Damn, I need to cancel my plane ticket to see Jay, then.

He may have just been talking about me specifically. I do have that musky "stuck in the rain 24/7" smell.

 

[Mathias]

Moral of the story folks. Don't date crazy bitches.

Let her go man. It's hard. But it's for the best.

 

[Frank]

Yeah, that reminds me of something Joe Rogan said. He said something to effect of I used to love crazy bitches until my friend was murder suicided by one (referring to Phil Hartman).

 

[David]

The only piece of advice I can remember my father ever giving me regarding dating:
Never sleep with a woman crazier than you.

 

[Soliloquy]

Well, call me a fool for not taking the direct advice to leave her alone... but I kept going through the texts (which I've now removed) and became transfixed with two sentences among the 1,038 word rant...

You have no idea what I've been going through these last few weeks, let alone two months.

And EVEN NOW you refuse to see what I'm going through and you haven't asked.

I knew that there was something regarding what she was upset about because of how she said:

You didn't even read it or LISTEN again I'm sure.

And the thing is... I hadn't asked how she was doing, really. I figured she was telling me everything in all of her texts the past few months. And I didn't want to make things worse by continuing to not ask, so I sent the following message to her:

How are you doing, [NAME]? You were right that I never asked what you're going through... and I should have from the beginning. What are you going through?

She wasn't happy, of course... and I didn't expect her to be. I downed a nice mixture of Kava Kava extract, Valerian, peppermint, Passionflower, Chamomile, more passionflower, theanine, and lavender so I could be calm enough to deal with the result.

But she actually made a decent list of what she was mad at me for besides not asking how she's doing... though I'm going to have a difficult time figuring out how to do all of them.

1. Grow up and don't act like a child.
2. Dress better.
3. Stop being so selfish.
4. Stop being lazy.
5. Stop being a slob.
6. Pay attention! How many car accidents do you intend to cause because you're not being responsible?
7. Stop blaming others for your shit and be a man and take responsibility!

So, now I've actually got something tangible to go off of. Here's what I've got to say about the different things, and well, I'd like your opinions.

1. Grow up and don't act like a child.
I'm guessing this is in reference to the fact that I cried a lot when I was helping with the move -- she was really critical the whole time and I had a difficult time handling it (and in the meantime I wasn't fixing the things she was critical of). This was particularly egregious because what she said she needed more than anything was someone who she could depend on for emotional support. Does anyone have any advice on how I can work on being less of a pansy during these times?

2. Dress better.
One of the (many) things that bothered her about her fiance was the fact that he never wore anything but crappy clothes. While helping with the move, I wore crappy clothes (for obvious reasons) and didn't really stop for a while afterward. The trouble is, besides my work clothes, I don't have much that's actually a decent, non-t-shirt-and-jeans outfit to wear on every-day occasions. And I blew a bunch of money on what was essentially three moves at the same time, so I don't have much in terms of expendable cash and probably won't for a while. Does anyone have any fashion advice for the budget-conscious?

3. Stop being so selfish.
This one is kind of a rough one, as those of you who saw her rather skewed view of selfishness in the previous texts. But there are some specifics that I can guess at -- Along with some overlap with the other things she's mentioning, I would argue with her about things that she said I was doing wrong, I would text her at times that weren't good for her, I would withdraw or refrain from talking to her when she was angry, and I would often go to sleep when she felt like we should talk. It's frustrating, though -- I have to get to work at 6:00 am every day, so it's difficult to stay up late and still be competent enough to get anything done in my new position. The Valentine's Day thing probably plays into this as well.

4. Stop being so lazy.
My best guess about this is that I didn't fix the things she was asking me to immediately, though maybe the sleeping thing played into this as well. Maybe there's more that goes into this than that, but it's all I can think of.

5. Stop being a slob.
I moved into a new apartment at the same time she moved out of her place, and I never took the time to clean up my apartment soon after the move. I also am extremely absent-minded and tend to leave stuff laying around after using it without putting it away or throwing it away. She did tell me many times during the past two months to "clean up as you go," but I never really picked up that good habit.

6. Pay attention! How many car accidents do you intend to cause because you're not being responsible?
Well, so far I've had one traffic accident and gotten two tickets in the past two months... I haven't exactly been in a good frame of mind, but I really do need to be more responsible. This all started during the move. I hadn't been this way before, so I can understand why it freaked her out.

7. Stop blaming others for your shit and be a man and take responsibility!
I... don't know what to say about this one... though if anyone's got any suggestions I'd love to hear them.

So, that's what I've got to work with now... which is a lot more than I had previously. And regardless of what you think of her or my decision to stick around, you can't deny that a lot of this is good advice. I could just use some help getting this done as well as possible.

And for those of you telling me to just leave her... well, I promised her I wouldn't when this all began, and I intend to keep that promise. Any other advice you can give me would be appreciated, though.

 

[Cheesy1]

Man, I have to throw in my two cents here. I know it kills you that you can't seem to help this woman, especially since you have deep feelings for her. You're a "White Knight," and you may feel like YOU'VE failed because she's still like she is. But as much as you want to help, as much as you love her, and no matter how hard you DO try: she may be beyond or just unwilling to accept your help. And as much as it may kill you to have to do it, you may need to break yourself emotionally from her to save your OWN sanity in the long run.

I was in your position just two years ago. My high school sweetheart, the only girl at that point who I had EVER truly loved, had just gotten divorced. Things ended badly when we first dated back in school, but it had been over a decade and I honestly thought she had changed for the better. She had been sexually and emotionally abused as a child, all of the guys after me abused her or her kids, and I thought I could be one of the good things in her life. When I went to visit her, things seemed great at first. But that changed very quickly, and soon she was berating me for things that I either had NO control over or I was honestly trying my hardest to please her about but to no avail. It got to the point where I was physically shaking with stress and worry about what I was going to do. I eventually came to the realization that if she REALLY loved me in return, she would be willing to be more understanding and not treat me the way she had been. And when she wasn't even willing to accommodate me on these simple issues, I knew there was nothing else I could do. Yes, it hurt for the longest time afterwards. But even more issues came up during that time that I didn't know about when I was pursuing her: things she had lied about and secrets she had kept from me that really broke my trust in her. It's been two years now, I'm still in contact with her, and we're still on good terms friend-wise. But we've both found better people for us, and I can honestly say that I'm happier than I've ever been in a long time right now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know you feel like you HAVE to save her, but if she is really treating you the way it seems she has been, you need to take a step back and decide if this really is the best thing for YOU. At some point you're going to HAVE to be selfish and do what's best for YOU. And as much as it may pain you to do it, it may be the only way to save yourself from even MORE pain later. She's going to have find her own way at this point, because right now she's just using you as a scapegoat to pass off her own failings onto you. And losing you may be one of the things to finally make her realize what she's been doing and take changing herself more seriously. You may not end up being with her in the end, and you may feel empty for a while. But you may find in the long run that things have a way of working themselves out for the better. But you'll NEVER know if you stay in this bad situation.

 

[Vrii]

1. Dress better.
2. Stop being so selfish.
3. Stop being lazy.
4. Stop being a slob.
5. Pay attention! How many car accidents do you intend to cause because you're not being responsible?
6. Stop blaming others for your shit and be a man and take responsibility!

This is a decent list of her issues? Not only is she not bothering to give you specifics, the majority of them are somewhere between petty and juvenile, and the list as a whole reads as an effort to drag you down as far as she can manage. Seriously, the whole thing amounts to calling you a lazy, childish slob.

Basically, I haven't seen a single sign that she's interested in discussing anything rationally, being fair to you, or doing anything else besides wallowing in her self-pity and blaming you for causing it. It doesn't even matter if it's your fault at this point - these exchanges are only going to make both of you continue to feel horrible, and you'd both benefit from breaking contact for at least a few days to get yourselves back into some sort of balance.

My suggestion here is simple: send her a text saying you need time to think things through, and that you'll talk to her in a week (two weeks, a month, etc.), and then do it. No contact, take care of yourself, sort your shit out so you're not just acting as a willing scapegoat for everything she thinks is wrong in her life. Try not to think about it at all for a few days, at the very least. Calm down, relax, try to find a hobby or an outlet that makes you happy, and focus on it for a while. That's it. When you come back to talking to her after your break, you'll probably have a pretty different perspective on things, and by outlining ahead of time how long you're going to go without talking to her, you shouldn't have to feel any guilt about abandoning her.

 

[LittleSin]

I'm sorry, Sol...but this lady is crazy.

My Dad dated a woman like this. We lived with her. She made our lives a living hell and she got crazier and crazier. She was in therapy but she never took any of the advice the therapist gave her/painted everyone in a negative light.

I'm sorry. She is a lost cause. I know it tears you up. My Dad went through the same thing, knowing she was no good for him (or us) but he still tore himself up over it to the tune of giving her absurd amounts of money which she took and still screamed at him for being an 'idiot'.

Please, tell her you need to cut contact and then DO IT.

 

[Shegokigo]

Telling him that this is a bad situation he needs to leave is like telling Norris he needs to seek professional help. It's not going to happen.

Eventually, days/months/years down the line he may understand.

 

[Frank]

You're a fool.

Well, call me a fool

 

[LittleSin]

I know. God, I know.

However I feel for him. I'm reading this thread and I'm getting a pain in my heart because I know he feels like he can;t leave, that he believes that he is the one at fault in all this.

Oh GOD it hurts me.

 

[Dave]

I went through something kind of like this with the old fiancee that doesn't remember who I am any more *ahem* and I can say looking back I have no idea what the fuck I was doing or why I was there. Love isn't as much blind as it is stupid as fuck.

 

[Cheesy1]

Just remember, most of us are making these suggestions to you because we care. We don't like seeing one of our own getting hurt. Take them as you will.

 

[Shegokigo]

See that's the thing. He wants us to tell him that there's something he can do to fix it and fix her. He doesn't want to hear "it's pretty much unsalvagable" because he doesn't believe it contrary to the facts.

He's going to continue to try, regardless of advice, till he's satisfied with the result, one way or another.

 

[Vrii]

See that's the thing. He wants us to tell him that there's something he can do to fix it and fix her. He doesn't want to hear "it's pretty much unsalvagable" because he doesn't believe it contrary to the facts.

He's going to continue to try, regardless of advice, till he's satisfied with the result, one way or another.

And you're going to continue calling him an idiot for doing it, despite knowing that he's going to. What's the difference?

 

[Cheesy1]

Then that will be his decision. That doesn't mean we still shouldn't TRY to give him advice. And at least WE can say we gave him our viewpoints before he makes it.

All we can do is hope for the best at this point.

 

[Shegokigo]

And you're going to continue calling him an idiot for doing it, despite knowing that he's going to. What's the difference?

You put words in my mouth sir. I'd never call him an idiot when I've been in self-destructive, obviously "should get out" relationships as well.

 

[Vrii]

You put words in my mouth sir. I'd never call him an idiot when I've been in self-destructive, obviously "should get out" relationships as well.

My apologies, then. I was reading intent there when I guess there wasn't any.

 

[Shegokigo]

Much like alot of us here, I understand him. Wanting so bad to just be able to "flip a switch" or "speak a word" that fixes everything (at least to the point where we're no longer hated and can begin to fix things) but the other party is already so far gone in their mind there's nothing we'd be able to to do anyway. Even if we suddenly did find a way to fix it, it wouldn't be what the other party wanted.

It's a sad situation with no real happiness, none right away anyway.

 

[Soliloquy]

Am I really that bad...? I'm just trying to keep a promise I made to a hurting and scared woman.

She knew that things would be bad during major changes in her life. It's one of the many things she learned during therapy about people in her position. She even warned me about it before this happened... and I told her that she didn't need to worry, and that things would work out.

She believed me.

Now that it turns out I was wrong, and her faith in me was misplaced... shouldn't I at least try to do something?

 

[Vrii]

Yep, I've been there too, and I know that I would have been a lot happier with how things turned out if I'd taken a month or two without talking to her before trying to discuss the issues she had. It's way too easy in the moment to just take what the other person is saying as true and offer to change, without actually filtering through it to actually figure out how you feel about it.

Wouldn't have actually changed anything for me, but I'd feel a hell of a lot better about the conversation if I'd been more prepared to stand up for myself instead of passively accepting blame for things that were far from my fault.