Do you identify as a feminist?

[makare]

If you are both fighting then how the hell can they be fighting FOR you?

You are both fighting for the same end.


The goal is equality, as much as possible, that is a goal that is shared by both white and black, men and women. The goal isn't to beat the other side and throw a parade it is to achieve a goal. Therefore it is right and proper that both sides fight together.

 

[Chazwozel]

If you are both fighting then how the hell can they be fighting FOR you?

You are both fighting for the same end.


The goal is equality, as much as possible, that is a goal that is shared by both white and black, men and women. The goal isn't to beat the other side and throw a parade it is to achieve a goal. Therefore it is right and proper that both sides fight together.

You need to take some black studies classes, my friend.

 

[SpecialKO]

I disagree entirely. The entire point of the battle, sexism, racism etc, is to get the other people on your side. What could be better than having the other side fight with you?

Who is "the other side" here? Just because I don't agree with everything Charlie says doesn't default me to "the other side". Neither does me being male.

 

[makare]

And how were civil rights awarded? by all those black men in power? the black men on the supreme court?

if white people hadn't joined the fight the goal would not have been met. It isn't actually a war between people's it is a war between ideologies.

I disagree entirely. The entire point of the battle, sexism, racism etc, is to get the other people on your side. What could be better than having the other side fight with you?

Who is "the other side" here? Just because I don't agree with everything Charlie says doesn't default me to "the other side". Neither does me being male.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! the other side is not men that is the point. the other side is a power structure, an ideology that is wrong and outdated. that is why men and women have to fight it together.

 

[Chazwozel]

And how were civil rights awarded? by all those black men in power? the black men on the supreme court?

if white people hadn't joined the fight the goal would not have been met. It isn't actually a war between people's it is a war between ideologies.

I disagree entirely. The entire point of the battle, sexism, racism etc, is to get the other people on your side. What could be better than having the other side fight with you?

Who is "the other side" here? Just because I don't agree with everything Charlie says doesn't default me to "the other side". Neither does me being male.

Thank you! the other side is not men that is the point. the other side is a power structure, an ideology that is wrong and outdated. that is why men and women have to fight it together.[/QUOTE]

Yes! All those black men obtained a different type of power that swung the civil rights pendulum in their direction. What? You, you think a lot of white people were happy about black civil rights??!?! If that was the case then racism would have been abolished at that point in time. Wow, you are an incredibly naive person. Take the example of when India obtained its independence from the British. Do you think that the British were convinced of the err of their ways and decided to pack up and leave? Wow... just wow...

 

[makare]

Uh huh and what was this power that the black men got?


It certainly wasn't the dramatic shift on the supreme court away from original construction and towards advocacy that allowed for the Brown v Board of Education to be pulled through. It wasn't the asinine reaction of a certain Arkansas governor who put even the president on the children's side. and it certainly wasn't the media broadcasting cruel treatment of protesters that raised international awareness of the plight. it was this magic power.

 

[Chazwozel]

Uh huh and what was this power that the black men got?


It certainly wasn't the dramatic shift on the supreme court away from original construction and towards advocacy that allowed for the Brown v Board of Education to be pulled through. It wasn't the asinine reaction of a certain Arkansas governor who put even the president on the children's side. and it certainly wasn't the media broadcasting cruel treatment of protesters that raised international awareness of the plight. it was this magic power.

Yeah, black people rallied across the country. Unless white people wanted a shit ton of riots and another civil war, things had to be done. That's power. For some strange reason, though, it was a black man that was considered a key factor during the civil rights movement. Martin Luther King, Jr. I don't recall many black folks following around a white guy for support.

 

[makare]

the riots happened way after Brown. The ball was already rolling and the path set before the riots.

 

[Chazwozel]

I am so fucking sick of this thread. Yeah, sure, riots after Brown... whatever...

my advice to you is to travel a bit after you're done with law school. Get some more perspective on life.

 

[makare]

I have traveled a lot, all over the country, and all over Europe.

 

[Chazwozel]

I have traveled a lot, all over the country, and all over Europe.

Then learn to hang out with people that aren't like you i.e. stop avoiding people you don't like. You might learn something.

 

[makare]

I hang out with a wide variety of people at my school. One of the nice things about law school is people come from all over. I'm not sure what you are basing that statement on but I don't agree with quite a few of my friends views on things.

 

[Espy]

This thread used to be fun then it got all not fun.

 

[makare]

Oh espy you always add so much to a thread.

 

[Officer_Charon]

Tell you what, makare. When I get called a "cracker-ass motherfucker," today by some jack-boy who I'm "brutally oppressing," I'll make sure and think of you. I'll toss CDS/TLB/FFF in there too, if it happens to be a female. How's that sound?

 

[makare]

Tell you what, makare. When I get called a "cracker-ass motherfucker," today by some jack-boy who I'm "brutally oppressing," I'll make sure and think of you. I'll toss CDS/TLB/FFF in there too, if it happens to be a female. How's that sound?

Ok....

Im still trying to figure out what your point is. I do not think I have succeeded but Ill guess.

Because there are asshole people, who are also black, it is wrong to want equality between white and black? Im really not sure here.

But It does seem a fine place to put this anecdote:

My friend Shannon hates /HATES/ the police. She is always saying fuck the police, those fucking pigs should all die! the oppressive bastards!

which is pretty funny coming from a blond, white girl in braids and a hello kitty shirt.

 

[Adam]

This thread used to be fun then it got all not fun.

Hey, you still up to the mutual casting off of male privilege?

 

[Chazwozel]

If you enjoy and watch pornography you can't be a feminist.

 

[makare]

But Im a feminist and I watch A LOT of porn.

 

[Officer_Charon]

Tell you what, makare. When I get called a "cracker-ass motherfucker," today by some jack-boy who I'm "brutally oppressing," I'll make sure and think of you. I'll toss CDS/TLB/FFF in there too, if it happens to be a female. How's that sound?

Ok....

Im still trying to figure out what your point is. I do not think I have succeeded but Ill guess.

Because there are asshole people, who are also black, it is wrong to want equality between white and black? Im really not sure here.

But It does seem a fine place to put this anecdote:

My friend Shannon hates /HATES/ the police. She is always saying fuck the police, those fucking pigs should all die! the oppressive bastards!

which is pretty funny coming from a blond, white girl in braids and a hello kitty shirt.[/QUOTE]

Point is just as you stated. The civil rights movement was a wonderful thing, which brought about theoretical equality between the races.

Doesn't change the fact that racism still exists. Will always exist. Much the same as sexism. There will always be ignorance. The only thing that you can "struggle" to change is the majority's outward perception of it's effects. You are not going to change someone's mind, if they are determined to be ignorant.

Your friend is a good example, too. Nice place for that anecdote.

I'ma go to work now and try not to get stabbed or shot. You enjoy your law school.

 

[makare]

So what are you saying now? We should fight to change the perception and the system? That's what's been said throughout the thread.

Or we shouldn't because there are assholes?

I refuse to let the assholes win, mang.

 

[Chazwozel]

But Im a feminist and I watch A LOT of porn.

Well then, you are supporting an industry that counters the very essence of what feminism stands for.

 

[makare]

But Im a feminist and I watch A LOT of porn.

Well then, you are supporting an industry that counters the very essence of what feminism stands for.[/QUOTE]


I don't think you understand feminism.

As long as the woman chooses to do porn she has the right to do it. Women can do whatever men do. Men are in porn so women can be too.

Also women can enjoy sex. Porn is not anti-feminist. Some feminist groups say it is but it isn't that is a bastardization of the ideology.

Kind of like that wacky christian lady saying we can't masturbate. That is not a tenet of Christianity, it is a tenet of a nutbar.

 

[Sara_2814]

Sara's point was that charlie shouldn't be "fighting" the battle for women because it is the women's battle. You agreed. Charlie is obnoxious so what. That doesn't discredit his view point that men should give a shit too, that it isn't just a women's issue.

Because Charlie being obnoxious is not helping women at all. What he’s done is antagonize the men until they’re forced to react against the Feminist argument to defend themselves and now they have one more negative experience with Feminism to add to their tally. How can this possibly help?

I’ve worked all my life to build bridges with men, creating friendships and mutual respect to show my gender doesn’t define my abilities, and then Charlie comes along and tries to burn those bridges down with his “Us vs. Them” bullshit, and I’m supposed to be grateful for this?

I’m not against men supporting equal rights for women, I’m against men destroying everything women have worked for in some heavy-handed attempt to “help”. This is exactly why I won’t use the label “Feminist”. Charlie is poisoning it as much as any radical.

 

[Chazwozel]

But Im a feminist and I watch A LOT of porn.

Well then, you are supporting an industry that counters the very essence of what feminism stands for.[/QUOTE]


I don't think you understand feminism.

As long as the woman chooses to do porn she has the right to do it. Women can do whatever men do. Men are in porn so women can be too.

Also women can enjoy sex. Porn is not anti-feminist. Some feminist groups say it is but it isn't that is a bastardization of the ideology.

Kind of like that wacky christian lady saying we can't masturbate. That is not a tenet of Christianity, it is a tenet of a nutbar.[/QUOTE]

A healthy major of feminist groups are anti-porn. And you've got to be shitting me when you're trying to compare men in porn to women. Men are LARGELY portrayed in porn as the dominant partner while women are subservient. There are a few genres where this is not the case, but the majority of porn is this way.

Yes, please tell me what's so proactive about a woman on her knees catching loads from 10 guys?

 

[makare]

So what? You can be a feminist and not like porn and you can be a feminist and like porn.

It is a non-issue.

Unless you are saying that the only feminists that matter are the ones in groups which I think is a pretty crappy attitude.

Yes, please tell me what's so proactive about a woman on her knees catching loads from 10 guys?

Maybe she enjoys sex and likes that? Maybe it is just her job? Are the men who do that in gay porn being victimized and therefor it is against men?

It's just sexy times chaz. It's ok.

 

[Chazwozel]

So what? You can be a feminist and not like porn and you can be a feminist and like porn.

It is a non-issue.

Unless you are saying that the only feminists that matter are the ones in groups which I think is a pretty crappy attitude.

Labeling yourself as a feminist delineates that you share feminist ideology. i.e. that porn is demeaning to women.

 

[makare]

It is not an absolute of feminism.

That's why they are called anti-porn feminists. If all feminists were anti-porn they wouldn't need that label.

 

[Covar]

We should all be proud of who and what we are.

I'm proud of my accomplishments, not things I had no part in (*snip* being in America, etc)[/quote]

You had a choice in that one. Believe it or not you can actually move, No one is forcing you to stay here.

 

[makare]

You don't really stop being an American because you move somewhere else. It's still where you came from and you will probably be treated as such.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Feminism isn't some hive-mind re: porn. Lots of people have wildly different views on it.

I really don't know what to tell you, Sara, if you think I'm 'burning your bridges'. I haven't antagonized anyone in here that didn't come into the thread saying something factually wrong or also already attacking me just for calling myself a feminist.

 

[Covar]

You don't really stop being an American because you move somewhere else. It's still where you came from and you will probably be treated as such.

By your logic no immigrant is ever an American and no adopted child is ever a member of the family. Which is in fact, bullshit.

 

[SpecialKO]

I could spend more time on this, as I find some of the viewpoints expressed in this thread rather fascinating, but I have to run.

So, in summation of the last half (so it seems) of this thread.

1) Makare knows Chaz intimately, despite never having met him.

2) Chaz just knows black people

Later folks, don't take everything so seriously.

 

[makare]

You don't really stop being an American because you move somewhere else. It's still where you came from and you will probably be treated as such.

By your logic no immigrant is ever an American and no adopted child is ever a member of the family. Which is in fact, bullshit.[/QUOTE]

So if I move to France and get citizenship, people won't still think of me as American?

Technically you can change citizenship but the perception of others is pretty much consistent.

Eww don't say I know chaz intimately
and all i said was I know him some after talking to him on here for three years. I do not, and do not want to, know him "intimately" in any shape or form.

 

[Sara_2814]

I'd like to interrupt the drama for a moment to thank everyone for all the love and offers of beer in this thread. You guys are so sweet. :wub: So I figure that now that I have you all under my spell, I should drop my persona and reveal the true me for you.

Spoiler

(Is that fun enough for you, Espy?)

(Also, bring me beer.)