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cosplay does NOT equal Consent

Discussion in 'Pez's Playhouse & Cosplay Corner' started by Bones, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. Bones

    Bones A Slumbering God

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    http://www.16bitsirens.com/consent/

    basically women in cosplay getting treated like crap by others(mostly men). Why is this even a thing?yes I admit I do stare on occasion. I do apologize that beautiful women in almost nothing is hard to ignore. However I believe that goes with the territory to a certain extent, what doesn't is the inappropriate touching and words. Seriously, act like an adult with restraint!

    I am not perfect as I said before, but I do try to act with some protocol and decorum around other people.
     
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  2. Tress

    Tress Always Late

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    A large segment of the convention crowd is made up of socially-stunted geeks who don't understand how to treat women with respect. It speaks to a great problem with many geeks, in my opinion. There are some strong veins of misogyny running through the whole foundation of that culture. The rest of us need to make a more concerted effort to speak up and make it clear that they have to treat other people (like the cosplayers in the article) with respect.
     
  3. Bones

    Bones A Slumbering God

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    I guess thats where my life and work experiences have shaped that way predominately women doing this sort of thing are treated. I do admit there was a time as a teenager when i would have been guilty. I think it helps that I have had the chance to talk to people like littlekagsin at length about her experiences. I would not any human being to feel objectified, it does happen, but this makes me sad. to be so deluded that you feel it is ok to say things you wouldn't say or do to someone on the street, less say them at all, has a chilling effect on how I look at you as a person.
     
  4. Tress

    Tress Always Late

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    [​IMG]

    This one is the most cringe-worthy. What idiot thinks this is a good thing to say?!
     
  5. Charlie Don't Surf

    Charlie Don't Surf #BlackLivesMatter

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    Agreeing with most of the sentiments itt about nerd culture's misogyny and horrid treatment of women in costume or not at most conventions.
     
  6. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Scotch Drunk

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    I knew I've been doing something wrong. I was sure that line was going to work.
     
  7. Bones

    Bones A Slumbering God

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    the thing is, technically it is a complement from the guy yelling it, just not to the lady receiving it. who is basically saying I don't date mouth breathing basement trolls like you.

    Not defending him at all. just an interesting semantical argument.
     
  8. stienman

    stienman GRATUITOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY

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    This could be taken care of if the convention actively policed the floor, and summarily threw people out without refund for harassment. Eventually people would understand that it's not acceptable, and they stand to lose their $$$ ticket if they are caught.

    But as it stands its implicitly accepted, and people have to report it, and more often than not punishment is a slap on the wrist.
     
  9. drawn_inward

    drawn_inward One Of Us

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    I understand what you mean here, but I honestly think that this extends out to the entire male population. Do jock types not gawk and say disrespectful things to cheer/dance girls? Have you been to college? I'd say that the majority of dudes in college are like you describe. I've seen some ridiculous behavior at rock concerts, and have spent some concerts helping young ladies get out of moshpits grope-pits. I've since stopped trying to get close to the stage.

    However, I also think the women should show some thought/discretion before choosing their outfits.
     
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  10. Dirona

    Dirona go team cleric!

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    Nope! nope nope nope nope nope.

    No one is "asking for it" based on their choice of attire.
     
  11. LittleKagsin

    LittleKagsin la femme

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    I just wanted to address this line specifically with my thoughts. (I generally hate sharing my opinion with lots of people - I prefer one on one conversation) Most of the time, cosplayers cosplay characters that they love and enjoy. I feel it's no fault of ours if they're drawn a specific way. I take offense with the general media of it all. Female characters are drawn a certain way because sex sells, so when a girl wants to cosplay that character, now what? Cosplay it accurately and be objectified or cosplay it inaccurately and ridiculed? It's a hard choice.

    I know some girls may choose skimpier outfits, and that really is their choice. She may be insecure and think that being skimpy will get her attention (which it will), it's possibly quite a bit cheaper to cosplay skimpy characters - less fabric = less money. She may think it's the only way to cosplay. There are a myriad of reasons a girl cosplays a character. But the way a man reacts to a girl in an outfit is entirely on him. Despite what society may say, he CAN control what comes out of his mouth and he CAN control where his hands go.

    I would also hope that girls would be okay standing up for themselves or saying no instead of teasing. I know a lot of the time, it's hard to stand up for yourself and is much easier to make teasing conversation when in reality you're uncomfortable. So, in some cases, I think guys aren't really sure if they're being offensive at a con because the girl won't come out and say it. Even if he gets all mad, I would rather stick up for myself and be called names than be taken advantage of in anyway.

    I'm just disappointed that character options are often in the same vein; the less clothes the better.

    I do agree though that this subject applies to more than just the convention scene. It should apply to everyone.

    (I feel very lucky I've managed to steer clear of all this - I've never felt scared at a con and only uncomfortable once.)
     
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  12. drawn_inward

    drawn_inward One Of Us

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    Was not implying that whatsoever. Chill! Chill. Chill. Chill. Chill.

    I DO NOT believe that: Women aren't getting what they deserve.
    I DO NOT believe that: Women dressing in skimpy outfits = prostitute.

    I agree with this to a point. I am truly not saying that women should be wearing burkas lest a man have impure thoughts. I TOTALLY (please read, sincerely) believe that men/whoever should be able to control their actions/words no matter the situation.

    You are right comics draw women ridiculously. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem, IMO.

    However, as you stated "Sex sells" and the truth of the matter is that no matter how strict the rules, guys are going to stare and gawk at certain outfits/costumes. A 2d drawing is a lot different than a living breathing person. Also context is everything. A lady in a swimsuit at the pool? Not really a big deal. A swimsuit at a mall? Different.
    I feel that same way about a dude dressing up as Namor in a speedo.


    I am amazed at some of the cosplay. There are some talented folks making those get ups.
     
  13. figmentPez

    figmentPez Cosplay Czar Staff Member

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    I'm kind of torn on this issue. On one hand I'm fairly conservative in some areas, and do want women to consider the message they intend to send with their clothing, but on the other hand I will say that covering that point during a discussion on harassment is not the right time. If we were discussing how to dress for a job interview and a work environment (apart from harassment), if we were talking about appropriate attire for church, a funeral or a wedding; heck, even if we were talking about what to wear to a convention in general, I'd be willing to talk about discretion in wardrobe. However, since we're talking about how men are treating women, and how to stop that, I think it's not the right time to address if certain costumes are appropriate or not. Because this type of harassment can happen no matter how much skin is shown, and no clothing is a form of consent*, it's not the right time to have a discussion on exposure levels.

    * I want to elaborate on this point. Clothing sends a message. If you want to get hired for a job, don't show up in a ratty old t-shirt. Wearing nice clothes sends the message that you care about the job you're applying for. Any employer is well within their rights to judge your fitness for the job based on how you're dressed when you interview. They don't have to, but they can. Showing up in stained, smelly clothing is a big sign that says "don't hire me". However, at a convention, there is no such thing as clothing that says "touch me", "take upskirt photos of me" or otherwise "harass me". There's clothing that says "I'm willing to appear in public wearing a thong". There are outfits that say "I'm a fan of this character". But there are zero outfits that say "you can touch my ass without formal consent". Such outfits do not exist.
     
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  14. LittleKagsin

    LittleKagsin la femme

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    AGREED!!

    Also, just going to throw out that, it's not wrong to notice someone in an outfit. What's wrong is how they're treated. If that makes sense.

    I have no problem with someone coming up to me and saying something like 'Wow, you look great in your costume." 'That costume suits you really well, you pull it off.' 'How long did it take you to make that? It looks great!'

    I don't want guys or anyone to be afraid to approach me. I mean, when I'm cosplaying, I'm basically saying 'I love this character so much I've spent way more money and time on it than I probably should have, come talk to me about it!!!'

    Anyway...I feel distracted and probably can't make understandable conversation anymore.

    I like reading everyone's thoughts about this subject though. :)
     
  15. drawn_inward

    drawn_inward One Of Us

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    I could not agree more Pez. And, you are correct, I should not have said that last snippet. I knew it when I clicked 'Post'. I became instant forum-fodder.
     
  16. LittleKagsin

    LittleKagsin la femme

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    If it helps, I think you just worded what you meant in the wrong way. I still like you. :)
     
  17. Dave

    Dave I'm not that fucking old! Staff Member

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    But the difference is that some people see these cosplayers not as the character but as a hot chick with cleavage. And they think it's a compliment to say, "Man, you are so hot!!" It changes it from an appreciation of the character into something that is sexualized. While the outfits themselves are sexualized to begin with, in this case it's directed at the person and not the character.
     
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  18. North_Ranger

    North_Ranger The Prokrastinator Staff Member

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    This is why I always ask first before I take a picture of any cosplayer, male or female. And if I say something, I compliment the outfit or the person's portrayal of their character, not their physical characteristics. But I've only been to Ropecon, which while the biggest 'con in my country is still nothing compared to the likes of PAX or Comi-Con. Maybe it's the old Finnish adage, "Stupidity concentrates in crowds".

    But... do I still have to feel guilty if here on the forums I see a sexy cosplayer and say "... I'll be in my bunk." I thought that was simply short-hand, a humorous quip meaning "Wow, I find that very sexually appealing" without being creepy.

    I'm honestly asking.
     
  19. Necronic

    Necronic Death Jester Staff Member

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    The problem is that the outfits are literally designed to be stared at. The same would be true of Deadpool or Lady Deadpool. Hell, I would go so far to say that they are meant to be ogled, at least in terms of design. I've seen some 40k cosplay that I would want to go up and touch. None of this is an excuse to say innapropriate things or to touch without asking. But when it comes to looking....I mean...I dunno. They are meant to be stared at, so now you are trying to discern what kind of staring it is. Way too much trouble for me.

    Basically just don't act like a mouthbreathing creeper and you'll be fine. This means you North_Ranger :)
     
  20. Tress

    Tress Always Late

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    I don't disagree with you, I was just keeping the focus on conventions and geek culture for this thread.
     
  21. Bones

    Bones A Slumbering God

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    my sig represents what is the wrong way to approach a cosplayer.
    what a weirdo pervert would say, "Wow, that costume really accents your tits, may I lick them?"
     
  22. Shawnacy

    Shawnacy The Steampunk Gentleman.

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    I'm married.
    The concept of beautiful women outside my relationship is beyond my comprehension.
     
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  23. Jay

    Jay I'm Jay and I feel you're... OK.

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    dildowoody.png.jpg


    Show Spoiler


    Seriously though.

    I see where some cosplayers come from and I expect as much when folks go to Cons where a huge assortment of people in different social standings, wildly different personalities and values merge into a mess where people are encouraged to judge each other.

    In general I feel that it's hypocritical to state, "HEY you're staring at my 90% exposed bits, this is 37% over my comfort level!!!"

    Comon.

    Sex sells.

    You will be looked at regardless of what you do at those places.

    And the better you look, the more attention you'll get.

    This is why 95% of all cosplay I see is mostly female and the reason why the more popular cosplayers out there know this AND exploit this.

    Here's an example.... Jessica Nigri.


    Show Spoiler
    fP2cO.jpg


    She might be a complete sweetheart and have a huge assortment of positive things to say about her (I'm serious, no puns)

    However, most of her pictures will consist of her to show most of the boobage she can offer with a pedestal pushing up the daisies, the mid-riff, most of her legs and MORE!

    She knows it and she exploits it and has a huge following because of this. People go to cons for different reasons.

    Then you have other cosplayers who enjoy cosplay for the sake of it, out of enjoyment, like Kags for example, she's cute, sweet and witty (I just wanted to say that cause I'm her #1 fan) but most of her costumes have been creative rather than exploitative of her feminine assets.

    There's a clear difference between different levels of cosplayers and people, just like in highschool, like in college, like at clubs or at work are going to act like.... people.

    Sure people can be assholes to cosplayers who don't deserve such things to happen to them but that's just what happens.

    Good luck to them though.

    WHERES MAH PACKAGE
     
  24. GasBandit

    GasBandit Ask me about my Reprehensible Filth Staff Member

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    [​IMG]
    "Oh, right! Because you walked into Strippers' Discount Warehouse and said, 'Help me showcase my INTELLECT.'"
     
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  25. Espy

    Espy IMA PREACHA! Staff Member

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    I think it's possible to have two entirely different discussions about this that don't counter each other. 1. We can talk about guys being assholes no matter what a girl wears, because this is a huge problem. If you are a guy then don't be a dick. Don't be insulting or harass women (or other men). It's wrong. It doesn't matter if her boobs are popping out or if shes in a burka or if shes totally naked. It's wrong no matter what.
    2. There can be an important discussion for cosplayers to have amongst themselves about how they feel about the sexualization of characters. Are they comfortable wearing super skimpy costumes or do many feel they have to in order to get attention? The reality is that if you wear a big sign that says look at me people will look at you. Thats just life. And any costume is basically a big sign that says "look at me I'm in a costume" even if people aren't exposing their naughty parts. How sexualized those costumes get... well, personally I'm not a fan overly sexualized costumes but in the end it shouldn't matter what they wear. People should still treat them with respect.
     
  26. stienman

    stienman GRATUITOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY

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    When my (fictional) little girls play dress up, sure, I'd like them to dress up like role models that aren't unrealistically oversexualized.

    Too bad there are few, if any, such role models in society.

    Is "Guess you can't play dress up without being sexually objectified! Too bad!" really the best answer our society has?
     
  27. Gilgamesh

    Gilgamesh One Of Us

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    This is very simple:

    Don't complain if some guy/girl is creeping on you/staring at you when you're dressed seductively. It doesn't matter if that's your favorite character, or that it's the artists fault for drawing them that way. There's nothing stopping you as a Cosplayer from creating a more modest version of that character. You dress in something where your tits are 90% showing, your navel is exposed and there is more skin that clothes? Yeah guys/girls are going to drool/stare. It's not different if you're Cosplaying or going out dancing. As a famous man once said: You might not be a stripper, but you're wearing a stripper's uniform.

    HOWEVER: I will agree that it is NOT ok for someone to say inappropriate things to you, the Cosplayer or even going further as in to touch you in a way you did not allow. Again though, that's just common sense in a way that's not even allowed in public.

    I don't understand the point of this movement, as people already know what's socially acceptable and what is not. You will get whistled at/cat called while in Cosplay at a Con just the way you would wearing a short skirt and passing a construction site. It's not OK for them to do it, but if you already know it's going to happen, and you know that these people don't care that it's not ok, and most of all it's not illegal (unless there's forceful touching) there's not much a movement can do.
     
  28. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Scotch Drunk

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    I don't mean this snarkily, but I'm not sure that people do. I have had conversations with people who genuinely don't seem to understand how it feels to be women who are catcalled/touched without consent. Obviously I can't fully know their minds, and maybe they are willfully ignorant, but I think there is a not-insignificant number of people who live removed enough from social norms to be surprised by what isn't acceptable.
     
  29. Bones

    Bones A Slumbering God

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    the article is clear, this is not about being oogled, this about the things people say and do. when you touch someone you cross a very clear line, if it is not clear to you prepare to be hit in the face HARD with a baton by the nice man with the badge, gun, and judge dredd helmet.(sorry Officer_Charon you are an easy insert for that line). I believe that being oogled is a part of the territory of anyone putting themselves out for public view. There is little that can be done about that, however, when you say uncouth things like "You got a nice set of cans, mind if I lick em..." you are playing a dangerous game.

    the long and short is that people are dirty frickin d-bags either out of ignorance or attitude. I am just saddened this is a big enough issue to warrant an article on the matter.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2013 ---
    two words for you: Samus Aran :3
     
  30. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Scotch Drunk

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    yeeeah but:

    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]
     
  31. Bones

    Bones A Slumbering God

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    yes, but this is a character who never actually does that in the games, who spends the entire game in badass power armor. I mean I can pull out some sexy my little pony cosplay if you want to make a counter-point but it feels rather silly.

    actually screw it....
    Show Spoiler
    My+little+pony+Cosplay.+Found+this+and+thought+it+was_5544a6_3193266.jpg
     
  32. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Scotch Drunk

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    Yeah, no, I was just trying to be silly. :D
     
  33. Necronic

    Necronic Death Jester Staff Member

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  34. figmentPez

    figmentPez Cosplay Czar Staff Member

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    I think the problem with ogling is not that staring is a problem, it's that women have very few options to enforce personal boundaries. I think most cosplayers want to be looked at to some extent, and it's really hard to know if someone is examining the stitching on a hemline or is picturing that hemline removed all-together. The problem is that there's no socially accepted way to say "your staring is making me uncomfortable, please move on" and reliably get any sort of compliance. First, women are shamed into thinking that saying that is an unreasonable request, when it shouldn't be an imposition on a man at all to stop lurking about. Second is that many guys actually do think it's their right to stare at women, and they might even get violent when told to stop.

    There are times when staring becomes creepy. Remember Panda ? She had a fantastic Goblin Queen costume, but few pics of it exist because she changed out of it halfway through the day after a guy followed her around staring at her and muttering under his breath. She felt unsafe and changed into a different costume because of it. That's not the way it should be.
     
  35. Bowielee

    Bowielee Globally ignored since 1975

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