[Movies] Avengers: Endgame Spoilers Thread

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@ScytheRexx I started a side-thing about the GoG being all "empowered" after @Ravenpoe said they weren't. Making this all about Sam and accusing us of trying to "get on Sam's case" is beside the entire argument about Quill.

What the hell does Sam have to do with this side conversation at all? He's cool, but not empowered, but that's completely irrelevant to the GoG argument.
The whole segway started because someone brought up Sam having no powers, and thus he wouldn't make a good Captain America. Ravenpoe brought up how most of the GOTG as not having powers (which yes, isn't true) but then you brought up that Star-Lord has powers, which I disagreed. Yes, he does have powers when with Ego, but in GOTG, Infinity War, and Endgame, he does not show any extra-ordinary powers. He isn't lifting buses with his hands, he isn't making fire shoot out his mouth, etc. In Endgame, War Machine literally brained him with his metal arm.

Arguing "Well, he COULD have powers!" isn't a valid arguement. He needs to SHOW he has powers, and that said powers are not tied to Ego. He has yet to do that.

Again, him holding the Infinity Stone (when it required Rocket, Gamora, and Drax to "share the load" just so he didn't vaporize) is one moment that may show slightly higher celestial durability (though for all we know, only towards infinity stones, due to space demi-god wonky woo) but who is to say the fact Ego was alive at the time isn't a part of that? We don't, because nothing Quill has shown in three of his four movies has shown anything other then "bipedal man with cool space gadgets and good aim".

He is basically the Falcon of the GOTG, which is why I segwayed back to the original argument.
 

figmentPez

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That is the thing though. Replace "Guardians" with "Avengers" and "Star-Lord" with "Falcon" and suddenly what's different? Sam fights alongside / versus two men in super metal suits, a man that can shrink or grow, two super soldiers, one super prince in vibranium armor, a mutant kid in a spider suit, a unquestionably powerful robot, a woman with untold psychic abilities, etc...

Look at Black Widow and Hawkeye. One is a woman trained to be an assassin with no super enhnacements, and the other learned to be ridiculiously good with a bow. Why are these guys "acceptable" as powerful Avengers, but Sam Wilson with all his talent and technology and wingsuit, isn't? Why? That is all I am asking here with how people seem to get on Sam's case. The dude is a man among titans and still holds his own.
I'm with you on Sam. Sam is awesome. Sam deserves to be Captain America. Sam isn't a B-lister, he's ben a major character in the development of the plot, especially when it comes to Captain America. Sam helped Cap connect to the present in ways that no one else was able to. Sam has been a major player in operations during multiple movies. Sam has great chemistry with a number of characters, including Bucky and Black Panther. (Also, his tech consists of a lot more than just his wings, and can be expanded upon as plot requires. I question if anyone has even watched the movies if they think Falcon's tech isn't up to the task of being Captain America.) But most of all, Captain America isn't about power levels, it's about leadership and moral character. Sam has both of those essential qualities.

That said, if the Black Widow movie reveals that she's been subject to some sort of enhancement, would anyone even bat an eye and say "There's been no evidence that she's enhanced!" I'm not saying that she must be, or that it would be a good plot point that she is, but she does stuff that humans in our world can't pull off (and so does Batman, James Bond, John McClane, and a bunch of other action heroes). My point is that it's really hard to tell if a character has powers/enhancements until the plot explicitly tells us.

He is basically the Falcon of the GOTG, which is why I segwayed back to the original argument.
You're right, that's how Quill has been played in the movies thus far. However, if the plot of GotG3, or any future movie, deviates from that and has plot development based around his celestial heritage, it won't be a plot hole or a retcon. It's been set up since the first movie that Quill is not human.
 

Dave

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Neither Sam, nor Hawkeye, nor Black Widow, etc. could be Cap. It has NOTHING to do with anything other than he's not powerful enough. And that goes for a lot of the other characters as well. But then we swing back to the whole, "the MCU loves certain characters" thing. Like Drax never wins a fight. He's there to look strong but never really succeed. There's really only a few of the MCU that are allowed to be strong and effective. Yeah, they win small fights against weak characters but not the big fights. And don't give me the whole "Black Widow & Hawkeye in the battle of New York". Were it not for Iron Man, Thor, & the Hulk it would have been stupid quick how fast it would have been over. Hell, even Cap was hamstrung by the fact that he could only fight locally on the ground.

I like Sam. I think he's a good character. I just don't think he's powerful enough to be Cap.
 
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I would argue that the title of Captain America has morphed into something that is more a symbol than a specific hero architype. You can even see it in the real world if you ever pay attention to Chris Evans on Twitter. Maybe the problem is less that you think other characters can't be Cap, but it's really more that no other character can be Steve Rogers.
 

Dave

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I would argue that the title of Captain America has morphed into something that is more a symbol than a specific hero architype. You can even see it in the real world if you ever pay attention to Chris Evans on Twitter. Maybe the problem is less that you think other characters can't be Cap, but it's really more that no other character can be Steve Rogers.
The problem with that is that if you get a Cap that isn't very powerful it's going to be a symbol all right. Right after he continues to get his ass kicked.

You and I have a fundamental disagreement on what it means to be Captain Amercia.
Heart has a lot to do with it and Sam has that heroism. But Cap also has to be able to handle himself in a fight and Sam could only do this is if the foe is fairly weak.
 

figmentPez

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The problem with that is that if you get a Cap that isn't very powerful it's going to be a symbol all right. Right after he continues to get his ass kicked.
Who says he's going to get his ass kicked?

Heart has a lot to do with it and Sam has that heroism. But Cap also has to be able to handle himself in a fight and Sam could only do this is if the foe is fairly weak.
That's assuming that Sam uses the same strategies that Steve does. Which he won't. Sam will be a different style of hero than Steve was.
 
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Like Superman, Cap is more than just his powers. Just having powers doesn't define him, nor would it define Sam if he takes up the mantle. In terms of judging him by his character, I don't think anyone would question his worthiness.
 

figmentPez

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Or the enemy was, you know, powerful and smart.
Yeah, heroes never win against villains who are more powerful than they are. It just doesn't happen. :facepalm: I mean, I'd cite examples, but there just aren't any. Spider-Man has never been outmatched by an order of magnitude or more, because Spider-Man has powers, and that's the only bar that matters.
 

Dave

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Yeah, heroes never win against villains who are more powerful than they are. It just doesn't happen. :facepalm: I mean, I'd cite examples, but there just aren't any. Spider-Man has never been outmatched by an order of magnitude or more, because Spider-Man has powers, and that's the only bar that matters.
In this MCU Spider-man has never won a fight.
 

figmentPez

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In this MCU Spider-man has never won a fight.
And, yet, somehow he's a A-list hero who is an amazing character who definitely deserves having a sequel to his movie. Funny how that works. Great writing matters a whole lot more than perceived power levels.
 

Dave

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You're right. Anyone can be Cap if he has a lot of heart and his enemies are written poorly so that his SUPER STRENGTH WHICH WAS INSIDE OF HIM ALL ALONG wins the day. And that's all that matters. He doesn't need powers, just a plucky, never-say-die attitude.
 

figmentPez

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Or, ya know, a crap load of technology, a team he's leading, and better tactics than his enemy. The same things that make Batman work as a hero, despite him not having super soldier serum running through his veins.
 

Dave

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Now Batman is a MUCH better thing to compare him to. And I agree that it comes down to how the writers treat the hero. They could make Cap lose every fight or make Bob from Deadpool win. It's completely arbitrary.

But let's get back to the Batman analogy. Batman is effective because (for some reason) now he's super smart & almost prescient when it comes to neutralizing enemies. The money they both have and the team angle goes to Sam.

BUT in a one-on-one fight, Sam is gonna get his clock cleaned by a powerful and smart enemy. Sam wouldn't have lasted against Thanos as long as Rogers because a punch that would hurt Rogers would liquefy a normal person. And having Sam be suddenly worthy of Thor's hammer would be a huge cop-out.

So I respectfully disagree that Sam is the smart choice for Cap.
 

figmentPez

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So basically your argument is that Sam would be a bad choice because you're assuming bad writing. Okay, whatever.
 

Dave

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And you're assuming he'll be effective because of bad writing. Okay, whatever.
 

figmentPez

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And you're assuming he'll be effective because of bad writing. Okay, whatever.
No, I'm assuming that good writing will put him up against foes that are both thematically appropriate and that provide the right amount of dramatic tension to drive a movie. The MCU has a pretty good track record of doing exactly that, so I have no expectations that they'll make a huge deviation any time soon.
 
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Dave, you do realize we are talking about a film series that started with Tony, before he even got his red suit, being able to shrug off blunt force trauma that would paralyze a normal person?

It's not supposed to be realistic.

Tony should have turned into soup the first time he launched himself up into the air inside a literal iron casket that didn't show any blunt force protection, but he didn't, because no one wanted to see the movie end in the first ten minutes.




Hell, in Infinity War, Thanos fucking crushes the Hulk. CRUSHES him. By the nature of the Hulk's strength and durability, that means Thanos punches had to give more force then a tank shell. Later on, Thanos struggles for a moment to overpower Steve Rogers, who while a super-soldier, has nowhere near the raw strength of the Hulk. Another few minutes later, Thanos, with his bare fingers, rips into fucking VIBRANIUM to remove the Mind Stone from Vision, like it was made of soft playdoh.

It's not supposed to be consistent, because like I said, no one wants to see the hero get turned into soup after only a few seconds. The villain is only ever strong as he needs to be for the person he is fighting.
 
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The whole POINT of Winter Soldier was to prevent the other five super soldiers from being revived and set loose.Turned out to be a moot point, but still.
I think you're confusing it with Civil War.

And: In 1991, the brainwashed super-soldier James "Bucky" Barnes is dispatched from a Hydra base in Siberia to intercept an automobile carrying a case of super-soldier serum.

So the 5 where made way after Winter Soldier was a thing.



I wonder what happened to that bad guy. They foreshadowed him like he was going to be this big behind the scenes kind of evil dude but he just disappeared.
Well since they changed him from being the descendant of one of Caps WW2 foes to just some guy that lost family in Sokovia, so his story arc kind of ended when he made the Avengers mad at each other.


I'm 99.963% sure that's not the case. There are many scenes of Bucky keeping up with Cap physically even without using the metal arm. The fights in Winter Soldier, running as fast as Cap and Black Panther in Civil War, etc. In terms of physical abilities, Bucky is at least equal to Cap.
Well, it's true that MCU Cap is more superhuman then just peak human like in the comics...

But stuff like keeping up with him etc doesn't really count IMO when Cap was able to withstand Thanos pushing him for a few seconds after Thanos body slammed the Hulk no problem, their power levels have always been inconsistent.


Bucky was treated with a hydra/Soviet version of the super-soldier serum along with the attachment of a cybernetic arm.
Do they ever mention that, or do we just assume since he can hold his own against Cap and BP?
 
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@PatrThom fixed the broken image. I was really wondering why you gave me that rating when I first came back to the thread.
I deliberately blur my vision when I visit this thread to clear the unread, but even when blurred, I know what the “imgur is being a jerk” image looks like.

—Patrick
 
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Stark enterprises will build him a self repairing nanotech Falcon suit *ala Spiderman*. There. Now Kiss! *I'm with you Dave.*
 
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Assuming that Shuri doesn't build him something even better.
He'll have easier access to Stark technology, official avenger's and what not.

That is if they finally allow Wakandan technology outside of their control.

And then Rocket laughs at both of them, "You fly around in that thing?!? Gimmie a minute" and whips him up something real quick.
*MCU is making it hard to image search, but in marvel comic books, when tony is with the guardians, Tony is boasting about how his suit is some of the most advanced tech on earth, and Rocket is like "Earth? BWAHAHAHHA"*
 
B
I reserve the right to change my mind later, but right now my favorite moment was Peter meeting Carol. "Hi Peter." He is going to be thinking about that moment for years.... or maybe I'm just a little infatuated with Brie Larson. :oops:
"Hi Peter Parker. Do you have something for me?" :unibrow:
 
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