[Movies] Avengers: Endgame Spoilers Thread

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#71
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  • Doesn't that mean that Thanos disappears from the past and isn't around to collect the stones and cause all this to happen in the first place?

  • They killed past-Nebula, but present-Nebula was still around how exactly?
I think you're still stuck on the BttF time travel paradigm.

Killing past Nebula and Thanos was explicitly said not to change anything, and would only create new alternate timelines, which is why they went with a time heist instead.

Of course, Tony not just wishing them back to their proper timeline with no memories and dusting them instead was more of an artistic choice then anything else. So unlilke the Loki-Tesseract thing, i don't think they'll follow up on the Thanos-less timeline.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
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#75
Are we still doing the anti-spoiler prelude in each post? I'm confused.

Spoilers in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

Just kidding, I want to say that I'm sad because somehow I missed the Stan Lee cameo. Whoops, guess I have to watch the movie again!

So, do you think they cremated Tony for his funeral? Like, it would be kinda poetic, but also kinda awkward.

I reserve the right to change my mind later, but right now my favorite moment was Peter meeting Carol. "Hi Peter." He is going to be thinking about that moment for years.... or maybe I'm just a little infatuated with Brie Larson. :oops:
 
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#77
Wow! What an amazing movie. Seriously my new favorite in the series. I couldn't believe the amount of throwbacks and cameos they had stuffed in there.

To keep things simple I am going to do a few random musings then go over the big thing, time travel.

Was so happy to see Mjolnir back! Even if only temporarily. It makes sense to me why they made Thor get so out of shape. He would have been a beast dual wielding his weapons if he was still in prime shape. The scenes with the parents and their kids kept murdering me. Clint losing his family, Cassie finally being able to see Scott again, Tony just trying to be a good dad, Morgan losing her dad, oh man my heart.

I can't believe they "Harry Kim'ed" Gamora, I was not expecting that. Speaking of that whole thing, how the fuck did Thanos fit his whole ship through the time machine considering it was supposed to use Pyrm Particles to shrink to quantum sizes? Did they steal Nebulas and figure out how to use it? I guess I missed that part?

Actually why where the Avengers even using ships? Thor supposedly has the power of the Bifrost now. Actually, wait, in Infinity War while they were on that circlular ship, Dr. Strange tells Tony to turn it around back to Earth, but he does not know how so they decide just to go to Titan. Now we know Dr. Strange can just sling ring across the universe. Why didn't you just do that!? Haha.

I was honestly surprised to see The Ravagers at the fight. Once I saw the Wakandans I quickly expected the Sorcerers and even the Asgardians since they now live on Earth, but the Ravagers felt out of the left field. (They even had Howard the Duck with them!) Seriously the amount of cameos was blowing my mind. They had at least one side character from pretty much every movie in some way shape or form.

Also, I don't know if Peter Parker has the best luck or the worst. Now that we know all the people came back, but lost five years, it's pretty much official that all of Peter's friends, including Ned, were dusted. On the one hand that's terrible, on the other though it's the only reason he is still on the same level as them. Could you imagine Peter coming back and finding out all his friends graduated years ago?

Speaking of the dusted, it pretty much confirmed that all the dusted people returned directly to the point they vanished, as Doctor Strange and the others were on Titan when they used to sling ring. This is going to be one hell of a bad day for anyone that was traveling on an airplane. At least they won't have long to contemplate what just happened.

Time travel in this movie was played very loose, but honestly I am curious. The Ancient One made it out that time was one long flowing line, and that by removing a stone it would make a "doomed timeline". Banner explained that putting the stone back right at the point it left would fix that, but they changed other drastic things in that timeline, like Loki escaping. Did those still twist off into other time threads? Or much like The Ancient Ones visualized time stream, would putting the stones back actually "rectify" the main timeline even with small changes?

Example, we saw at the end of the movie Steve stayed in the past to be with Peggy, but that event totally destroys her known history. You could say that they just agreed to keep it on the down low, and not involve themselves, but remember during Winter Soldier, Peggy was revealed to have Alzhimers. She wouldn't be able to keep up the ruse in front of the younger Steve once he was unfrozen if her memory was failing as bad as they showed. If it sort of finds ways of correcting itself, then it could be even with his changes, time turned out the same. Might explain why none of them noticed the old dude sitting like 30 feet away by a lake. He may have just materialized from the correction.

My best theory is that when the time stream changes in little ways, some of those changes "slip through the cracks". For instance, we know Loki is getting a series on Disney+, and we saw him escape with the Tesseract in one of the time hiests. It could be this event caused an alternate Loki to slip into our universe much like Gamora did.

Anyways, just my own musings. Great movie.
 
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#78
Here’s an interesting interview with the writers explaining many of their choices, including some of the controversial ones.

EDIT: Better link here
 
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#79
Here’s an interesting interview with the writers explaining many of their choices, including some of the controversial ones.

EDIT: Better link here
NYT demands subscription.


As for my opinion, the whole thing about time heist went out the window when they brought Thanos into the future. It kind of breaks things. They could have just prevented the snap entirely, kill Thanos in the crib, or any number of alternative solutions at that point.

That said, the whole movie was fun. You must turn your brain off about paradoxes, etc or else it just doesn't work.

Informative links for people with regards to time travel:
Schlock - causal past is all that matters: (best funny explanation anywhere IMO) https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2005-04-03 2 minute or so read
Chrono Trigger: (aka: how to explain the entire plot with internal-consistency, aka: mass banishment of Time Bastards to the Darkness Beyond Time) https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Principles_of_Time_and_Dimensional_Travel.html An hour read, minimum.
 
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#81
It's a bit weird, but Hulk tried to explain it best he could on how they treat time.

"If you travel in the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past. Which can’t now be changed by your new future."

Breaking it down, what he is saying is that nothing they do involving their time jumps changes anything in their past. The past is written for them and won't change. The little pockets of time they are traveling to are, in essence, their future.

The Ancient One sort of added onto this saying that by taking the Infinity Stone, they would be "dooming" her reality by creating a secondary timeline that would be destroyed, but Banner said that by bringing the stone back to the moment it was taken, in essence time would correct itself and they would all be part of the same timeline again, as shown in her magical diagram.

My guess is the Stones themselves are the only things that can technically exist outside time, so when Steve, say, goes back to Morag to put back the Power Stone, he isn't going to find Nebula on the floor. When he goes to return the Soul Stone, he won't find Black Widow's corpse at the bottom of the cliff. Those pockets of existence are gone, and by returning the stones, they technically "never happen" in the first place. The timeline re-stabilizes itself.

There are of course ways to fuddle this. For instance, rumor is that Loki escaping with the Space Stone, due to all the time distortions and the power of the Infinity Stones, will actually somehow reappear after the correction and exist in our future. This would lead into his new Disney+ television show, as they have not confirmed said show would be a prequel to his death in Infinity War. He would basically return in a similar fashion to Gamora, who was time displaced out of one of these pockets.
 
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#82
So they keep harping that you can't bring Black Widow back because she was used to acquire the Soul Stone but 2014 Gamora now exists as the present one despite having been used to acquire it the first time.

Just go back and grab a Widow from before?
 
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#83
So they keep harping that you can't bring Black Widow back because she was used to acquire the Soul Stone but 2014 Gamora now exists as the present one despite having been used to acquire it the first time.

Just go back and grab a Widow from before?
or two.....
 
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#84
So they keep harping that you can't bring Black Widow back because she was used to acquire the Soul Stone but 2014 Gamora now exists as the present one despite having been used to acquire it the first time.

Just go back and grab a Widow from before?
My guess is that Gamora and all of the Thanos crew being time displaced is going to create a branching timeline that the writers can use to fool with in later stories if they choose.
 

figmentPez

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#85
Just how many alternate timelines are we saying have been created here? I'm a little confused.

Watching the movie, I thought the Ancient One was saying that the Infinity Stones kept alternate realities from being created by time travel. But the directors said that Captain America had to jump from his happy ending reality back to our reality to give his shield to Sam.

Peter Quill didn't get knocked out during Guardians of the Galaxy, so that throws off the timing of his getting ambushed by Ronan's troops. Does that create an alternate reality? Or do the Infinity Stones nudge things back to the point where the differences don't matter to the timeline as a whole?

Is there any way to go back in time in our reality, and have Thor: Dark World directed by Patty Jenkins (Wonder Woman)?

Does Thanos destroying the Infinity Stones have an impact on reality? Did he really destroy the Infinity Stones? If so, will they reform because they're essential to reality? Or will this have unforeseen consequences?
 
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#86
Watching the movie, I thought the Ancient One was saying that the Infinity Stones kept alternate realities from being created by time travel.
I don't believe that is what she said. She said that by taking the stones from her reality, they would manage to save theirs but her reality would not be able to be saved the same fate. I didn't get the implication that the stones themselves stopped alternate timelines from happening, simply that taking them (without returning them) would doom the alternate timelines they're making.
 
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#87
I don't believe that is what she said. She said that by taking the stones from her reality, they would manage to save theirs but her reality would not be able to be saved the same fate. I didn't get the implication that the stones themselves stopped alternate timelines from happening, simply that taking them (without returning them) would doom the alternate timelines they're making.
That is what I was originally thinking she meant. I think one reason it is confusing (other than "time travel") is because the taking the Time Stone from her and not returning it results in a future timeline merged with the Dark Dimension.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
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#88
So, they've created unknown numbers of alternate realities, with unknown fates, and there's still a reality where all the people who were dead from the snap are still dead. So they did everything, and they did nothing, and it's all meaningless.
 
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#89
But the directors said that Captain America had to jump from his happy ending reality back to our reality to give his shield to Sam.
Can I get a source on this? He technically can't jump back without the time machine. Did he jump back before his younger self left?

BTW I feel like no one read my post. Haha.
 
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#91
But the directors said that Captain America had to jump from his happy ending reality back to our reality to give his shield to Sam.
So they didn't travel back into their one past but into the past of different realities in the first place? Reminds me of a novel I read once. A man from the present is chosen to travel back to 50 BC to fix stuff that went wrong. The way it explained in the book is that they don't travel back in the past but in the present of other realities.
 
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#93
People, people. Never try thinking about time travel in stories. Unless it's Primer, the science will never, ever make sense if you think about it too much.
 
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#94
So they didn't travel back into their one past but into the past of different realities in the first place? Reminds me of a novel I read once. A man from the present is chosen to travel back to 50 BC to fix stuff that went wrong. The way it explained in the book is that they don't travel back in the past but in the present of other realities.
Except for the 50BC part, that's the plot of the Crichton novel Timeline. In Timeline they went to the middle ages. But it's "really" another reality. But it also "impacted" theirs
One of the guys that went back in "time/reality" has a tomb that they find in their "time/reality."
 
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#95
I wasn't talking about time travel necessarily. I'm talking about the rigidity they are sticking regarding one character's resurrection while breaking the exact same rule with another.
 
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figmentPez

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#96
Can I get a source on this? He technically can't jump back without the time machine. Did he jump back before his younger self left?

BTW I feel like no one read my post. Haha.
AVENGERS: ENDGAME Co-Director Joe Russo Answers Some Huge Lingering Questions And Addresses Major

"The characters in this movie created new timeline when they went back to the past, but it had no effect to the prime universe. What happened in the past 22 movies was still canon."

When asked about Steve's life with Peggy Carter, "We can't answer it for now," Joe said, "this is a story that happened in an alternate reality. Maybe it will be revealed in the future."

"Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline," he continues. "For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam."
 

figmentPez

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#97
What I'm bothered by is how many alternate realities they're fucking over, just to be able to have a happier ending in their own.
 
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#98
So they didn't travel back into their one past but into the past of different realities in the first place?
It's actually not explicit enough.

I was assuming they just went with the current time travel mechanics they use in the comics, but i saw the writers saying something about physicists telling them stuff instead, so who knows.

I wasn't talking about time travel necessarily. I'm talking about the rigidity they are sticking regarding one character's resurrection while breaking the exact same rule with another.
Well with Widow Hulk tried to resurrect her, but with Gamora they instead created an alternate timeline that has no Thanos past 2014... instead of just using the Gauntlet to wipe their memories and send them back, so no new reality gets made...
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What I'm bothered by is how many alternate realities they're fucking over, just to be able to have a happier ending in their own.
By putting the stones back, they figure it won't screw them... Hulk says as much.


"For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam."
If he wanted to show us that he should have just had Old Cap show up on the platform...
 

figmentPez

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#99
By putting the stones back, they figure it won't screw them... Hulk says as much.
But what about the other changes? There's a reality with no Thanos now, and thus no Guardians of the Galaxy, which might mean they didn't stop Ego, which would really screw over that reality.
 
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I would love to see vignettes about Cap putting the stones back in their proper timelines. The Aether was in Jane Foster and had to be removed, so how did he get that taken care of and get Mjolnir back without the Asgardians noticing? The Tesseract appeared to be broken in the future to get the stone out, so how was that reconstituted and reinserted at the military base with no one the wiser? How did Cap get to Vormir and what happened when he found Red Skull there? On & on. The only easy one would be the Time Stone. Just show up at the Battle of New York and hand it back to the Ancient One moments after she gave it to Hulk.
 

Dave

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But what about the other changes? There's a reality with no Thanos now, and thus no Guardians of the Galaxy, which might mean they didn't stop Ego, which would really screw over that reality.
Xandar also gets fucked because what'shisname (the bad guy from Guardians) is now the most powerful being in the galaxy.

And Ego still is in check because he doesn't have Quill. He needed Quill to do his plan.
 
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But what about the other changes? There's a reality with no Thanos now, and thus no Guardians of the Galaxy, which might mean they didn't stop Ego, which would really screw over that reality.
Really, all they needed was to put Thanos back...

But i don't know about no Guardians, since Ronan would have done things without Thanos anyway, and he already gave him the troops, right?

No Gamora though...
 

figmentPez

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Xandar also gets fucked because what'shisname (the bad guy from Guardians) is now the most powerful being in the galaxy.

And Ego still is in check because he doesn't have Quill. He needed Quill to do his plan.
That's assuming that Ego never finds Quill. Which, now that I think about it, who knows what happens to the rest of that movie without Thanos, Gamora, and Nebula driving the plot. Because it's Peter holding the Infinity Stone, however briefly, that brings him to Ego's attention. But, even if that doesn't happen, Quill could still bring himself to Ego's attention by some other means.
 

Dave

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If the infinity stones are all powerful, Tony could have (1) put Thanos & all the bad guys back with no memory of what had transpired and (2) made a duplicate copy of Gamora to go back with them. Hell, he could have (3) insured that all timelines were put back including Loki, whom he knew went away.
 
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