Your uncomfortable crime and punishment thread for the day

GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
A California 10 year old, allegedly a victim of abuse, is watching his parents divorce and is afraid he'll end up in his neo nazi father's sole custody, so while the father is passed-out-drunk on the couch, the 10 year old shoots him in the head.

3 years later, the child has been sentenced to 40-to-Life. Eligible for parole in 7 years.

Was his motivation truly a form of self defense? Was the sentence too harsh? Too lenient? Just right?
 
Shakey

Shakey

Prison will just continue to push this kid down the wrong path. I don't know where he should be put, but he needs serious therapy and not left to rot in a prison.
 
Tress

Tress

That sentence is ridiculous. He needs therapy, not life in prison. And there's no way we can hold a 10-year-old criminally responsible for a crime like that.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Tress said:
That sentence is ridiculous. He needs therapy, not life in prison. And there's no way we can hold a 10-year-old criminally responsible for a crime like that.
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The really whacked-out thing is, he was sentenced to 40 to life in a Juvenile Detention facility. Which means they're going to let him out when he's 23, sentence be damned, cause you can't have no old bastards in kiddie prison. So why not just make the sentence 10 years? Because California.
 
strawman

strawman

Well, one human being killed another. The article spends a lot of time justifying that murder. If the father came before a judge and the allegations of abuse were proven, and the nazi tendencies noted, would any of that lead the judge to believe that the father should be put to death! Does California even have the death penalty?

I'm guessing that the father didn't deserve death, but let's say he did. Was it the child's right to pass that judgement and sentence?

The only two things that should mitigate the charges and sentencing are whether the child was in immediate danger, justifying a self defense plea, or if the child was not capable of understanding his actions or the consequences of his actions.

Of course there are many other possible practical problems, such as the possibility of a poor defense, and the reality of bad, or badly applied, laws and case history.

But we don't know enough about the situation, the mental evaluations performed, and so forth to really pass judgement.

Of course it is terrible the child was in this position, and now has to suffer the consequences of their actions, but their youth alone doesn't absolve them of their culpability.
 
Cajungal

Cajungal

Staff member
Maybe not. But 10 years old? Come on, man. Maybe thats old enough to know right from wrong, but Impulse control and understanding consequences aren't fully in place yet. "The future" for a child means next week, not the rest of their lives.
 
strawman

strawman

You're right, and generally the mental evaluations prior to the case would help the judge determine whether the child was culpable. Perhaps they did a poor job of evaluating his capability and understanding.
 
jwhouk

jwhouk

I have my opinions. I can't share particulars, but I think this kid would be protected in whatever (sham of a) juvenile correctional facility California has.
 
D

Dubyamn

Overall I'll trust that the court made the right decision in this case cause I don't have the information or the expertise to really go on.

I do hope they let him out in 7 years cause at 17 he'll have a chance at a normal life and hopefully can put it all behind him.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
Terrible. At 10 he should not have been put into prison. First, I reiterate about impulse control, etc. Second, how the fuck was a 10 year old allowed access to a loaded weapon? Third, this will be much, much worse in the long run for this kid. There's no rehabilitation in our system. All we're going to do in this case is make a kid into a long-term risk for recidivism.
 
strawman

strawman

Prison, in this case is a punishment for murder. It's not to prevent him being a danger to society, or to reform him.

Are you saying ten years olds who commit murder should be exempt from prison sentences?
 
D

Dubyamn

stienman said:
Prison, in this case is a punishment for murder. It's not to prevent him being a danger to society, or to reform him.

Are you saying ten years olds who commit murder should be exempt from prison sentences?
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He's saying that we should really think about what kind of effect sending a 10 year old to prison is going to do. Will it reform him? Or will it break him to a point where we've turned a kid with shitty circumstances into a lifelong criminal?

Which is a perfectly reasonable question because we can't keep a 10 year old in prison for his entire life. We're going to have to let him out eventually.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
Dubyamn said:
He's saying that we should really think about what kind of effect sending a 10 year old to prison is going to do. Will it reform him? Or will it break him to a point where we've turned a kid with shitty circumstances into a lifelong criminal?

Which is a perfectly reasonable question because we can't keep a 10 year old in prison for his entire life. We're going to have to let him out eventually.
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Pretty accurate, but I'm taking it one step further.

Here's what this kid's life has been to this point.

Nazi father, mother not in the picture. Police and CPS called numerous times to the house for child abuse. Dad & step-mom talking divorce and the kid is well aware that he would go with the biological parent - the abusive nazi dad. So he killed his dad. He's living wit the scars of abuse, he's dealing with the guilt of killing not just a person but his own father. Now what are we doing? Putting him someplace where assault - both physical and sexual - is rampant. When he gets out he is going to be angry. He is going to be unable to function.

10 fucking years old does not mean that he had any clue what he was doing. Yes, he probably knew it was wrong, but where is the compassion for what this kid has been through? He does NOT need prison. He needs to be placed somewhere where he can find a normal fucking life, with people who care about him without beating his ass, and get him some therapy. Anything less will just ruin his life and make him an unnecessary bane to society.
 
strawman

strawman

Of course we should take that into account. The child is also a victim. However Dave's statement seemed to suggest that because he was ten prison should not have even been an option. Yes, prison won't do him good in the long run, but he's not sentenced to prison for his own good. It's because he took the life of another human being in cold blood.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
stienman said:
Of course we should take that into account. The child is also a victim. However Dave's statement seemed to suggest that because he was ten prison should not have even been an option. Yes, prison won't do him good in the long run, but he's not sentenced to prison for his own good. It's because he took the life of another human being in cold blood.
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I'm amazed at you sometimes.
 
strawman

strawman

Ok, so taking all that into account, then you're saying that he shouldn't be in prison. It sounded like you were making a blanket statement saying no ten year old murderer should ever go to prison.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
stienman said:
Ok, so taking all that into account, then you're saying that he shouldn't be in prison. It sounded like you were making a blanket statement saying no ten year old murderer should ever go to prison.
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10 years old is too young to understand what the results of crime are. So I guess I am saying yes, 10 years old is too young for prison. There has got to be a better way than just locking them up and turning our eyes back to the latest reality tv show.
 
strawman

strawman

Well, while I would probably agree with you in the general case, I couldn't approve of a law that would give a minimum age for a prison sentence.

Some ten year old murderers deserve prison as much as a thirty year old might.

I'd say the cases should be judged on their individual merits.[DOUBLEPOST=1383314021,1383313944][/DOUBLEPOST]
Covar said:
Like throwing him into the foster care system? There is no good alternative here.
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The issue is that we don't have a place in society for him. If he doesn't deserve the punishment of prison it doesn't matter - prison is the only place we can currently deal with him.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
Covar said:
Like throwing him into the foster care system? There is no good alternative here.
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The fact that you can say that is another problem. Let's take even more money out of social programs and give these tax breaks to the rich guys. The foster care system needs to be looked at as well. But foster care is still better than juvie in most cases. I hope. (I have no stats on this to back up the opinion.)
 
Covar

Covar

Dave said:
The fact that you can say that is another problem. Let's take even more money out of social programs and give these tax breaks to the rich guys. The foster care system needs to be looked at as well. But foster care is still better than juvie in most cases. I hope. (I have no stats on this to back up the opinion.)
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I wonder what the statistics are as well, and how much the statistics were weighed in determining sentencing. While I do feel time in juvenile detention is warranted for the crime, there seems to be a effort in the sentencing to not release him until he is an adult.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

I've seen a kid pawn > $100k worth of family jewelry to keep pictures of his "leisure time" off the Internet, I know they're perfectly capable of making and executing tough decisions, but when done WITHOUT the benefit of life experience to guide them, the results may not be what other adults would consider "rational."

If he'd had some sort of confidant, he could've gotten some better advice, and perhaps might've made some better choices, but he did not, and here we are.

EDIT: Added link to the story.

--Patrick
 
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Shawn

Shawn

I don't really know what to think. I know murder is wrong, but in this case I think I approve. His father was a bad person.
 
Shawn

Shawn

stienman said:
Out of curiosity, since the article doesn't state, what sort of abuse did this child suffer that, in your mind, justified his father's murder?
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Well most definitely mental abuse. There may have been some physical abuse, but you don't become the leader of a neo nazi movement if you're not the type of person to pound your views and opinions into your own kid's head.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
This one is less about punishment and more about the crime - pretty much any husband's worst nightmare.

Imagine being deployed overseas, and during one of your Facetime video chats with your 9-month-pregnant wife, you can do little but watch as someone who owes you money ambushes her in your home and stabs her repeatedly. She is currently in critical condition, her due date is in 1 week, and the attacker was caught and booked with a $60,000 bond.
 
strawman

strawman

Shawnacy said:
Well most definitely mental abuse. There may have been some physical abuse, but you don't become the leader of a neo nazi movement if you're not the type of person to pound your views and opinions into your own kid's head.
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Well, I'd have to disagree that mental abuse justifies murder. I feel that if we, as a society, make laws the put mental abusers to death we'd be going down the wrong path.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

He needs to be in a mental health institution or psych ward where there are child psychologists and counselors who can work on him.
 
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