There is a difference between being guilty of rape and being guilty of putting yourself in a bad situation (that may or may not lead to an attack). However, when it happens to a woman you don't tell her she may have brought this on herself by having done thing a,b,c,d, etc. Maybe during therapy someone can say, how can we avoid this in the future, etc, but it's not really helpful when someone is attacked.
Women think very little of eachother...
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ElJuski
Staff member
Totally with boner on this one. She says "no" it's time for you to stop or be a rapist. If she doesn't say "no", then it's not rape. If she says "yes", well then, lucky guy, let's hope you don't have whiskey dick.
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Also, the whole "Shouldn't be wearing provocative clothing" is such a bullshit argument that hinges on a society which gives exception to misanthropy in the case of stupidity. How about, instead of blaming the girl dressing sexy, you just don't fucking act like an asshole?
---------- Post added at 04:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 AM ----------
Also, the whole "Shouldn't be wearing provocative clothing" is such a bullshit argument that hinges on a society which gives exception to misanthropy in the case of stupidity. How about, instead of blaming the girl dressing sexy, you just don't fucking act like an asshole?
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Kitty Sinatra
If I'm walking though a shitty neighbourhood, dressed well and drunk then turn down a dark alley after mouthing off to some punks, I'd be blaming my stupid decisions for getting my ass beat.
It's a pretty crappy neighborhood but rent is cheap.
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Kitty Sinatra
I don't know about that. Fabio really pisses me off.
Well sure, if she was shouting at people "Come and rape me, i dare you limpd*ck!" I could see it...
So what you're saying is don't be there when she wakes up... got it.
But what if i convince her i'm Brad Pitt while she's not drunk?! What then?
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Iaculus
So what you're saying is don't be there when she wakes up... got it.
But what if i convince her i'm Brad Pitt while she's not drunk?! What then?[/QUOTE]
Well, you'd best just hope Angelina doesn't find out.
Oh no, i found it much easier to convince her i'm Billy Bob...
Cajungal
Staff member
Skimmed through this thread, pretty sure I'm the first woman to post.
These results--I want to say they surprise me, but then they kind of don't. And that saddens me. There's no "forgiving" a rape victim, because there's nothing to forgive. It's a cruel and stupid attitude to take towards a rape victim to pin the blame on them. Anything that happens before a woman says "no" and is then taken advantage of doesn't matter. What matters is that someone didn't listen, and whoever's too dumb to ignore "no" in this day and age is the one who's unworthy of forgiveness.
These results--I want to say they surprise me, but then they kind of don't. And that saddens me. There's no "forgiving" a rape victim, because there's nothing to forgive. It's a cruel and stupid attitude to take towards a rape victim to pin the blame on them. Anything that happens before a woman says "no" and is then taken advantage of doesn't matter. What matters is that someone didn't listen, and whoever's too dumb to ignore "no" in this day and age is the one who's unworthy of forgiveness.
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Chazwozel
It is the point of the article we're discussing. I guess I was smart enough to catch that while you were writing stupid analogies.[/QUOTE]Actually, no its not. The only drunkenness mentioned int the article is about whether or not the respondents to the poll had ever been so drunk they didn't remember what happened the night before.
And the fact that she's drunk doesn't make it ok to rape her. "Harble warble *vomits* Woooo!" doesn't mean she gave INFORMED consent. Additionally: if you convince a drunk girl that you are Brad Pitt, have sex with her, and she wakes up to find you're not - thats rape too. People have to KNOW exactly what they are consenting in order to consent.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that taking advantage of drunk chicks is a big no no in the "Man Rulebook"?
Informed consent? We aren't running a double blind research study here we're fucking.
And no if you lie to a woman to get her in the sack it's not rape, it's you being a complete and total sleaze.
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makare
Yeah, this one doctor in the 70's told some of his female patients that they had a disease or disorder but he was naturally immune so they could be cured by having sex with him. (remember being a moron is not a crime) the women had sex with him and found out that he was lying. He couldn't be charged with rape because the women had consented to the sex even if it was under false pretenses.
figmentPez
Staff member
What happens if we take gender and sex out of the equation?
Say a Person A, Alex, attempts to intentionally provoke Person B, Bryce, to violence. Alex taunts Bryce repeatedly with insults to intelligence, heritage, appearance, etc and invades Bryce's space as well, getting nose to nose but not actually touching. Alex continues this until Bryce snaps and throws a punch. Does Alex bear no responsibility in the assault? Even if, legally, Bryce is the only one who can be charged with any crime, why should we overlook that Alex was an instigator just because Alex is also a victim? Personally I think it's absurd to take the attitude that victims are automatically blameless because their attackers are without excuse. It doesn't matter if Bryce threw one punch or dozens, Alex was wrong to try and provoke an attack if s/he didn't want to get hit. Bryce is guilty of assault, period, but Alex is still a jerk.
Fault isn't a matter of percentages. If two people cut holes in the hull of a ship, and each hole is big enough to sink the craft, there's no splitting the blame for the ship going down, even if one hole was bigger than the other. Not that this is analogous to a rape case, but my point is that a rapist can be 100% responsible for his/her actions, even if the victim is responsible for whatever they did wrong.
Say a Person A, Alex, attempts to intentionally provoke Person B, Bryce, to violence. Alex taunts Bryce repeatedly with insults to intelligence, heritage, appearance, etc and invades Bryce's space as well, getting nose to nose but not actually touching. Alex continues this until Bryce snaps and throws a punch. Does Alex bear no responsibility in the assault? Even if, legally, Bryce is the only one who can be charged with any crime, why should we overlook that Alex was an instigator just because Alex is also a victim? Personally I think it's absurd to take the attitude that victims are automatically blameless because their attackers are without excuse. It doesn't matter if Bryce threw one punch or dozens, Alex was wrong to try and provoke an attack if s/he didn't want to get hit. Bryce is guilty of assault, period, but Alex is still a jerk.
Fault isn't a matter of percentages. If two people cut holes in the hull of a ship, and each hole is big enough to sink the craft, there's no splitting the blame for the ship going down, even if one hole was bigger than the other. Not that this is analogous to a rape case, but my point is that a rapist can be 100% responsible for his/her actions, even if the victim is responsible for whatever they did wrong.
I'd like to cram that rulebook down a certain persons throat til they shit out Chapter 6.
But alas, I think that book is out of print.
The article reminds me of the alleged rape case involving Kobe Bryant and a few similar cases other famous people. Where the victim goes alone to a man's room very late at night to 'party.' To me a woman should not put herself in that situation, if she does not want to fuck said super star/politician/sleaze... He's asking you up to the room to fuck. Please don't be so naive.
Of course the man should not be a rapist.
Of course the man should not be a rapist.
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Chazwozel
So did he win the Nobel prize in medicine for that year? Duping someone into sex isn't rape. It's not taking advantage of someone who normally would be at the capacity to say 'no'. It's taking advantage of a moron. I take advantage of stupid people to the fullest each and everyday.
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In those cases a lot of the time the women do give full consent to sex and they later try to extort said athlete for money, which is illegal. They're hardly naive, most times. Now, of course, there are exceptions, such as Mike Tyson, who did in fact rape someone.
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makare
Yeah the fact that he didn't commit rape because those chicks were morons was pretty much the point of my entire post.
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Chazwozel
I was agreeing with you.
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Kitty Sinatra
It didn't really come across that way.
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makare
It doesn't really matter. The point is that it's hard to sympathize with someone who is too dumb to think things through. Master con-men and a few choice situations aside, people need to be responsible for their own stupid choices. As long as they were free to make both that stupid decision and another not stupid decision.
I was agreeing with you.[/QUOTE]
Asking if he won the Nobel prize seemed a little sarcastic. It took a few reads to get down what you were saying.
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Chibibar
I think that is what the article is trying to say. Dressing very provocative and "taunting" men could lead them into these situation. Going to a drinking/drug party without a buddy/designated driver/ etc etc is taking a chance of being taken advantage when you are in those state. I think that where part of the blame comes into play. If a girl don't go on a drinking bing, drug party, go up to someone's room, and stuff like that there is a good chance of sex. There are VERY rare cases where going to someone's room after a date doesn't result in sex.
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Chazwozel
I think that is what the article is trying to say. Dressing very provocative and "taunting" men could lead them into these situation. Going to a drinking/drug party without a buddy/designated driver/ etc etc is taking a chance of being taken advantage when you are in those state. I think that where part of the blame comes into play. If a girl don't go on a drinking bing, drug party, go up to someone's room, and stuff like that there is a good chance of sex. There are VERY rare cases where going to someone's room after a date doesn't result in sex.[/QUOTE]
Uh, no, see I agree with Charlie on this. A woman can show up to a party in a bra and thong; that doesn't give anyone the right to have sex with her unless she agees to it.
---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------
I was agreeing with you.[/QUOTE]
Asking if he won the Nobel prize seemed a little sarcastic. It took a few reads to get down what you were saying.[/QUOTE]
I was just embellishing on her original statement.
I have to say I'm pretty pleased that only Chibi seems to be interested in blaming rape victims
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Chibibar
Yea. having experience of being raped, yes. I believe that I could have avoided the whole situation if I didn't go to this one party which I rarely knew anyone. It was a party that some acquaintance invited me and I went. I drank a little and was drugged pretty much taken advantage. It was my first and didn't know who it was.
Is it my fault? yes it was. It is partly my fault for going to a party without buddy to lookout for me. It is my fault to drink. It is my fault NOT monitor my cup before it was spiked. I never gave consent so to me it was rape.
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Chibibar
True, but the situation could have been avoided. I don't think much about it now since it is all past and became more careful person. I don't go to random parties (not after that one) and drink much at all (I'm totally light weight) so I keep myself safe and hang out where these situation don't arise.
I guess what I'm trying to say that if a person dress all sexy, go out on a drinking binge, drugs, and with consent go with random guys/gal to their room/apt/hotel. Then be prepare for the consequences. Sure, you can always say "no" but the other person may not listen. Legally, I am not at fault for my situation, but (at least to me) it is partly my fault and that is where my stances come into play.
Yea Dave, it could be guilt, but it is also a learning tool. On the other hand, I think it is unfair to "shun" the victim also. As a male victim, I didn't get shun like some of my female friends who suffer what they call "date rape". It is kinda hard for me to find the right word to explain it. On one hand, a person can be blame for the situation that could have been avoid, while the other hand, the act and result of it could destroy a person's life/reputation and society doesn't forgive them. I am not saying that the rapist should get off scott free or have reduce sentence (heck no!) but depending on situation (present in the article like date rape) the victim should have taken care of the situation they are in and avoid being victim in the first place.
Again, like I said before there is a difference in being responsible for putting yourself in a bad situation and being responsible for being raped. Just because someone put themselves in a bad situation does not, in ANY way make them responsible for what others do. All they are guilty of is poor judgement at worst.
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darkangel6988
I agree with that !
Jesus christ, Chibi, I'm sorry. It was not your fault. Don't blame yourself.
edit: I hope you've been to counseling or something.
edit: I hope you've been to counseling or something.
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Chazwozel
Yea. having experience of being raped, yes. I believe that I could have avoided the whole situation if I didn't go to this one party which I rarely knew anyone. It was a party that some acquaintance invited me and I went. I drank a little and was drugged pretty much taken advantage. It was my first and didn't know who it was.
Is it my fault? yes it was. It is partly my fault for going to a party without buddy to lookout for me. It is my fault to drink. It is my fault NOT monitor my cup before it was spiked. I never gave consent so to me it was rape.[/QUOTE]
Uh, that sucks...
Seconded, totally seconded, and agreed with everyone else too on how much that sucks. My jaw sorta dropped to the floor when I read that.
True, but the situation could have been avoided. I don't think much about it now since it is all past and became more careful person. I don't go to random parties (not after that one) and drink much at all (I'm totally light weight) so I keep myself safe and hang out where these situation don't arise.
I guess what I'm trying to say that if a person dress all sexy, go out on a drinking binge, drugs, and with consent go with random guys/gal to their room/apt/hotel. Then be prepare for the consequences. Sure, you can always say "no" but the other person may not listen. Legally, I am not at fault for my situation, but (at least to me) it is partly my fault and that is where my stances come into play.
Yea Dave, it could be guilt, but it is also a learning tool. On the other hand, I think it is unfair to "shun" the victim also. As a male victim, I didn't get shun like some of my female friends who suffer what they call "date rape". It is kinda hard for me to find the right word to explain it. On one hand, a person can be blame for the situation that could have been avoid, while the other hand, the act and result of it could destroy a person's life/reputation and society doesn't forgive them. I am not saying that the rapist should get off scott free or have reduce sentence (heck no!) but depending on situation (present in the article like date rape) the victim should have taken care of the situation they are in and avoid being victim in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Chibi, man, it's not your fault. It's normal for victims to feel the way you do. It's hard to accept that you were victimized and that it was out of your control, so taking guilt in the matter makes it seem somehow better, because then it seems you can control it in the future.
But even though that's a very normal response, it's still wrong. You were not to blame for that, you have to let go of that guilt. I second charlie's response in that I hope you've talked with/are talking with someone to help you through that.
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