Vaccinate your children

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mountebank

Antibiotics don't work on viruses at all, which is why all those people bugging the doctor for antibiotics when they've got a cold/flu are wasting time & resources. And if the doctors eventually cave to the parents of kids who think they know best ("Of course I know what's best for him! I'm his mother! Plus I have access to google, which means I have better medical knowledge than any mere doctor. Why yes, I do use homeopathy, why do you ask?") then they're doing a lot of harm, and absolutely no good.

Vaccines are best used to control and eradicate disease. Flu is so widespread and changes so fast that any flu is, at best, a temporary fix. It doesn't completely remove the risk. Any person wanting to argue that vaccines are just a scam used by big pharmaceutical companies would be better off using the flu vaccine as an example because it's not essential for most of the population, but is marketed as such.
 
now of course I am looking at Antibodies = antibiotics.. I could be totally wrong on this one. (which will NOT surprise me)
Antibodies do not equal antibiotics. Antibodies are the body's own personal defenses that bind to and neutralize viruses. Those articles you quoted... though promising... are talking about increasing the body's own immune response to take advantage of the fact that antibodies can identify and neutralize viruses that have already entered a cell (previous thought was once a virus was in a cell it was untouchable).

Vaccines are what makes the body produce the correct antibodies so that the immune system has a better chance of fighting off a virus than if it had to produce the anitbodies from scratch. The flu virus is extremely mutable and it is nigh impossible to produce solid vaccines for it. That's why the yearly flu shot is based on statistics of which strains scientists think will be the most prevalent that year. Some years it can be quite effective... others... total utter crap.
 
C

Chibibar

ah. I stand corrected. I guess I misread somewhere you could get antibiotic that can be use against virus.
 
I don't get the flu vaccine either. I prefer that my body uses it's own defenses to overcome illness and injury whenever possible. When said illnesses or injuries are too grave, I seek medical attention right away.

Forgot to mention, I will be vaccinating my little ones as soon as they are born. Polio, tetanus, scarlet fever etc. can disappear.
 

Necronic

Staff member
I'll be honest, I don't get the flu vaccine either, but its because I am lazy, no other reason. Even if you don't get sick, you can transmit it to children and the elderly, and it can definitely kill them. And for anyone who seriously used the term "low mortality rate" with regards to the flu....

1918 flu pandemic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

50 million dead in 2 years. Yeah, there's a reason people freak out about the flu. And if anyone wants to know the name of that flu, it was an H1N1 breed. Don't underestimate the flu.
 
That was me that said the flu had a low mortality rate... and the vast majority of flus do have extremely low mortality rates. The Spanish flu was a very specific strain that developed. I also never said that the flu couldn't evolve into something deadly.

Also, just so you know... your typical flu vaccine will do absolutely jack diddly squat against a virulent and deadly strain of H1N1 or avian flu. So when one of those strains hits... I'll be right there for vaccinations when they come up with one that will work.
 
getting everyone a flu shot "just because" is unnecessary.
Doesn't the flu evolve more quickly in well-vaccinated groups?[/quote]

In the same way that any population getting routinely cut down to 1% of the total population will evolve quicker than a population not getting cut down as much. Doesn't mean that the population that undergoes a massacre every couple of years will do any better than another.

Evolving =/= thriving.

Doesn't the argument against continuous streams of anti-biotics also apply, in some small degree, to vaccines?
No not at all. The problem with anti-biotic overprescription is that most of our common anti-biotics are variations of the original penicillin and other natural bacteria killing compounds. There are only so many of those and we are more and more having to start making completely synthetic anti-biotics which will also eventually lose their effectiveness. These new anti-biotics are taking more and more money to create.

Vaccines on the other hand are infinite. New strain comes along scientists will culture it, weaken it and re-inject it into the population as the vaccine. It doesn't change no matter what. That is why we had a vaccine for the swine flu within weeks of it becoming a big deal.
 

Necronic

Staff member
That was me that said the flu had a low mortality rate... and the vast majority of flus do have extremely low mortality rates. The Spanish flu was a very specific strain that developed. I also never said that the flu couldn't evolve into something deadly.

Also, just so you know... your typical flu vaccine will do absolutely jack diddly squat against a virulent and deadly strain of H1N1 or avian flu. So when one of those strains hits... I'll be right there for vaccinations when they come up with one that will work.
My biology knowledge isn't that strong, but if I understand correctly, the more viruses you have active in the population the bigger chance you have of it mutating. Take the recent H1N1 scare. As it stood, the virus wasn't that bad, but it was clasified as a pandemic because it had spread so far. Influenza has the rare and frightening ability to mutate incredibly fast, which could lead to something innocuous becoming something much worse. Simply put, the bigger your population, the more risk you have for the really bad epidemics.

And I'm not sure what you mean with your last statement. Flu Vaccines are all made in the same way, and generally take the same amount of time from discovery to vaccination. The deadly strains can be vaccinated against just as well as the less nasty ones. At least that's how I understand it.

Edit: Been reading over previous comments. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the purpose of the flu vaccine. Yes, its about preventing hospilization and death, but you do that by preventing as many people as possible (even those that wouldn't be hospitalized by it) from getting the flu.

Also, some numbers I ran across which surprised me:

250,000 - 500,000 people die from influenza worldwide each year.
3500 - 50,000 Americans die from influenza each year.
 
Just today my friend (who buys into a lot of conspiracy theories about toxins in everything) posted about this shit. thankfully I had this thread to fallback on for info.

Thank you, halforums, for allowing me to call people bad parents for once in my life.
 
I'm currently going through a list of chemicals he posted and explaining why they're in vaccines at all, and why that's ok.
 
this list includes

aluminum; formaldehyde; phenoxyethanol; gluteraldehyde; sodium borate; sodium chloride; sodium acetate; monosodium glutamate (MSG); hydrochloric acid; hydrogen peroxide; lactose; gelatin; yeast protein; egg albumin; bovine and human serum albumin;
antibiotics; unidentifi ed contaminants.

I stopped on Sodium Borate for now. I'm trying to find sources for everything too. Help would be appreciated.
 
If I wasn't about to sit down for a giant crab leg dinner I would help. But thats what I'm about to do. I think the PEnn and Teller Bullshit episode on it has lots of that info though... might be worth looking up...
 
this list includes

aluminum;formaldehyde; phenoxyethanol; gluteraldehyde;
It's a medical disinfectant as well as a preservative. Glutaraldehyde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sodium borate;
It's an anti fungal as well as a PH buffer to ensure a certain PH. Don't know what it's used for specifically in the vaccine but either use could be why it's in the mix. Borax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sodium chloride;
Sodium chloride is salt just plain table salt probably part of the saline solution.

sodium acetate;
It's a buffer used to keep a solution at a certain PH range. would be common in a laboratory.
Sodium acetate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

monosodium glutamate (MSG); hydrochloric acid; hydrogen peroxide; lactose; gelatin; yeast protein; egg albumin;
The vaccine is made by injecting virus into eggs and then purifying out the virus that survives. AFAIK that's how it's made. This is why people with egg allergies are told not to get the vaccine.

bovine and human serum albumin;
antibiotics;
Chickens are treated with antibiotics to avoid a plague wiping out the flock. The vaccine industry doesn't buy fucking organic eggs to make the vaccine.

unidentifi ed contaminants.
Doe he have a problem with the fact that he probably ate bug parts and rat droppings when he ate his corn flakes this morning? Or is he concerned with the fact that the ice machine at McDonald's has e-coli in it?

There is a reason why the government allows a certain amount of bugs in our grain and a certain amount of e-coli in our everything and that's because it is literally impossible to ensure no contaminants. The pasta we cook in our metal pans will have traces of metal in it, our eggs will have teflon in them. These are the facts.

I stopped on Sodium Borate for now. I'm trying to find sources for everything too. Help would be appreciated.
I didn't really have much time but I've provided what I could for now. Can't say I really like your friend. Saying salt like it's a contaminant is just plain ignorant.
 
He doesn't even buy bottled water. He get's it from some place that says that they don't put florid or anything into it. To him a glass of tap water is poison.

I keep him on my friends list for entertainment purposes, but almost pruned him because I was shaking with rage when I read his rant and his friends commenting about how they don't vaccinate their kids.
 
He doesn't even buy bottled water. He get's it from some place that says that they don't put florid or anything into it. To him a glass of tap water is poison.
Well at least he isn't a complete hypocrite. An idiot but one who clearly practices what he preaches I suppose there is some nobility in that.

I keep him on my friends list for entertainment purposes, but almost pruned him because I was shaking with rage when I read his rant and his friends commenting about how they don't vaccinate their kids.
Sounds like you're tilting at windmills with this argument. The truth is that the vaccine probably has trace amounts of all those things not in any amount that would hurt anybody but even admitting that it has these things will give him enough ammo to justify his belief in his own mind.
 
I know that he's probably a lost cause. If though someone with a kid who has bought into the hype looks at things like this and realizes that there's more mercury in tuna, or there's more aluminum in breast milk, then maybe they'll think twice.


In retrospect I should not have called them bad parents.
 
*sigh*

latest comment by one of his friends:

"Human beings have been surviving on their own naturally and healthy. We don't wanna inject our selves with some experimental metals. Humans DON'T NEED VACCINE PERIOD."
 
Ugh! We've created a society in which it's perfectly okay to be willfully ignorant, since it doesn't provide any disadvantages. That's wrooooong and I'm so angry!!!!
 
Some vaccines you need, some vaccines you don't really need but they can't harm you either way

Why is it always so black and white for stupid people.
 
C

Chazwozel

I'll be honest, I don't get the flu vaccine either, but its because I am lazy, no other reason. Even if you don't get sick, you can transmit it to children and the elderly, and it can definitely kill them. And for anyone who seriously used the term "low mortality rate" with regards to the flu....

1918 flu pandemic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

50 million dead in 2 years. Yeah, there's a reason people freak out about the flu. And if anyone wants to know the name of that flu, it was an H1N1 breed. Don't underestimate the flu.
It still has a high mortality rate among young and old people. People die from pneumonia associated from the Flu. It's not a joke.
 
C

Chazwozel

That was me that said the flu had a low mortality rate... and the vast majority of flus do have extremely low mortality rates. The Spanish flu was a very specific strain that developed. I also never said that the flu couldn't evolve into something deadly.

Also, just so you know... your typical flu vaccine will do absolutely jack diddly squat against a virulent and deadly strain of H1N1 or avian flu. So when one of those strains hits... I'll be right there for vaccinations when they come up with one that will work.
My biology knowledge isn't that strong, but if I understand correctly, the more viruses you have active in the population the bigger chance you have of it mutating. Take the recent H1N1 scare. As it stood, the virus wasn't that bad, but it was clasified as a pandemic because it had spread so far. Influenza has the rare and frightening ability to mutate incredibly fast, which could lead to something innocuous becoming something much worse. Simply put, the bigger your population, the more risk you have for the really bad epidemics.

And I'm not sure what you mean with your last statement. Flu Vaccines are all made in the same way, and generally take the same amount of time from discovery to vaccination. The deadly strains can be vaccinated against just as well as the less nasty ones. At least that's how I understand it.

Edit: Been reading over previous comments. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the purpose of the flu vaccine. Yes, its about preventing hospilization and death, but you do that by preventing as many people as possible (even those that wouldn't be hospitalized by it) from getting the flu.

Also, some numbers I ran across which surprised me:

250,000 - 500,000 people die from influenza worldwide each year.
3500 - 50,000 Americans die from influenza each year.[/QUOTE]

Influenza's genome utilizes eight segments that can mix and match to become virulent. It's yearly lifecycle involves a lot of knowledge of zoonosis and antigenic shift.


The gist is that these eight segments can mix and match to become virulent in pigs, fowl, and humans. What is non-virulent in one can be in the other. Every season a new strain crops up that is virulent in humans, it can invade you cells and cause immune response. The seasonal vaccines are comprised of heat killed virus or attenuated live virus. Depending on how fast it can be cranked out it may or may not be the current strain. H1N1 vaccination is available right now, and it's been for a while, so yes, vaccination does protect against it. I got my H1N1 last November. Vaccines use a mix and mash of various strains of influenza. The designation H1N1 for example dictates what proteins and how many that virus expresses on its protein capsid, and what is ultimately recognized by cell receptors. The H number in the name refers to the viral hemagglutinin protein, while the N refers to the type of neuraminidase enzyme on the surface of the virus. Influenza has this going on for it coupled with high density population areas like southeast asia where people interact closely and unhygenically with fowl and swine is the reason why the seasonal flu always starts in that region.

I just want to point out that azure is 100% dead wrong in what I have in bold. The current vaccine may help especially if the current seasonal virus is the same subtype as H1N1, but the fact is there is a specific H1N1 vaccine that you can receive along side the seasonal one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/AntigenicShift_HiRes_vector.svg
 
I just want to point out that azure is 100% dead wrong in what I have in bold. The current vaccine may help especially if the current seasonal virus is the same subtype as H1N1, but the fact is there is a specific H1N1 vaccine that you can receive along side the seasonal one.
I shouldn't have said what I said as an absolute... but I was getting irritated at being called immoral and an irresponsible parent because I don't recieve the flu vaccine or give it to my kid. Thanks for getting the facts out there.
 
C

Chazwozel

I just want to point out that azure is 100% dead wrong in what I have in bold. The current vaccine may help especially if the current seasonal virus is the same subtype as H1N1, but the fact is there is a specific H1N1 vaccine that you can receive along side the seasonal one.
I shouldn't have said what I said as an absolute... but I was getting irritated at being called immoral and an irresponsible parent because I don't recieve the flu vaccine or give it to my kid. Thanks for getting the facts out there.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't call you either. Unless you're around elderly and children all day I don't think it really matters. If you get sick or your kid gets sick from the flu, just stay home. Don't feel bad over it.
 
I'll be honest, I don't get the flu vaccine either, but its because I am lazy, no other reason. Even if you don't get sick, you can transmit it to children and the elderly, and it can definitely kill them. And for anyone who seriously used the term "low mortality rate" with regards to the flu....

1918 flu pandemic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

50 million dead in 2 years. Yeah, there's a reason people freak out about the flu. And if anyone wants to know the name of that flu, it was an H1N1 breed. Don't underestimate the flu.
It still has a high mortality rate among young and old people. People die from pneumonia associated from the Flu. It's not a joke.[/QUOTE]

My otherwise healthy 8 year old boy was hospitalized for 3 days last year due to respiratory complications associated with the flu. No pneumonia. The urgent care center doctor called an ambulance to take him to the hospital because even though he was breathing, his blood oxygen level was so low they were worried about the 15 minute ride without oxygen.

In other words, as concerned as we were about his flu symptoms, we did not see or understand just how bad he was doing - we were honestly thinking we'd get some antibiotics and perhaps something to treat his symptoms and get sent home.

Don't take the flu lightly, and not just because of its association with pneumonia.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top