Vaccinate your children

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Necronic

Staff member
Vaccines are one of the modern miracles of science, and have eliminated or helped contain some of the most dangerous diseases known to mankind. Its hard for people under 40 to appreciate how much things have changed. Most of us don't know someone with polio, or remember what it was like to be afraid of swimming pools. Or the times that parents would have scores of children because many wouldn't survive past 10. Dave knows what I am talking about.

Vaccines have been one of the true success stories of medicine. That story, however, may be getting re-written right now. Partly this is due to increasing costs and decreasing responsibility by the insurance industry, and that's a battle that will need to be fought at the government level. It should have been an easy fight, because the costs of vaccines pale in comparison to the long term costs that infection, or even worse, a wide-spread epidemic can cause.

The other problem has to do with one incredibly irresponsible and unethical doctor: Andrew Wakefield. In 1998 he published a paper linking Autism with the MMR vaccine. In it he used parental anectdotes of dates do determine links for the onset of the illness and the vaccination. The paper was eventually discredited and retracted but the damage was already done.

Since this paper came out there has been a massive drop in the vaccination rates in first-world countries, which has been linked to multiple epidemics. Regardless of how many times the scientific community discredits this link, people are still concerned about getting vaccines for their children. Instead they opt for the risk that their child could catch the disease and then spread it to other children, which is happening more and more.

And now here we are, on the path to loosing one of the greatest medical victories of all time. All due to one highly discredited paper and the irresponsible media that was willing to sew it's poison but unwilling to retract it. In the most medically advanced country in the nation it is appalling to know that we are seeing a reduction in vaccines.

I appreciate that parents have a special right to irrational concerns when it comes to their children. It's not bad parenting that lead to this. Really it is a mix of good parenting, poor education, and gross negligence by parts of the medical community and media.

I guess the reason I am writing this is that I think it is a big enough issue to present it to anyone who may have children, and am willing to thoroughly explain the issues at hand. This isn't to come across as a know it all, but as a person who sees a serious problem and wants to help. If anyone has ANY questions or comments about this please mention them. If you do think that vaccines cause autism or are a bad idea for one reason or another, please say so. I'm not going to "Chaz" you.

Also, in case anyone is interested, Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who started all of this, lost his medical license for this as well as performing chelation therapy, colonoscopies, colon biopsies, and spinal taps on children with autism. Often without the consent. And one of those children almost died.
 
California and Texas have already seen a rise in pertussis (whooping cough): pertussis outbreak - Google News

I am for sure getting my kids vaccinated some day.

I was looking for a great blog somewhere out there wherein the author went over how they researched the topic and concluded they SHOULD get their children vaccinated. Damned if I can find it again, though.
 
The one thing I agreed with Rick Perry on, was he wanted HPV vaccine required in Texas. But the Nutjobs treated it as a sex thing and not a public health issue.
 
The bad thing about this is that besides the autism thing, the surreal ideas of vaccine negationists now include that they are not effective altogether. A lot of these people defend that the disappearance of illnesses such as polio, etc. is due to an improvement in hygiene, diet, etc., and they back it up with the fact that their kids don't get infected despite not being vaccinated.

This is the very very bad thing of all this, to me. Their kids don't get sick because other kids that DID get vaccines are protecting them by not letting illnesses spread, but it is equally true that by not vaccinating their children they are putting other people in danger (say, people with especially weak immune systems, or people who for some reason cannot get vaccines).
 
the surreal ideas of vaccine negationists now include that they are not effective altogether. A lot of these people defend that the disappearance of illnesses such as polio, etc. is due to an improvement in hygiene, diet, etc., and they back it up with the fact that their kids don't get infected despite not being vaccinated.
wut? :wtf:

Polio, in particular, doesn't work for that theory. Except for possibly Smallpox, it's the most documented and studied worldwide success case for a vaccine, ever.
 
I know that theory is bullshit. I'm just reproducing what I've heard... As I said in terrible English in the following paragraph, a number of people in a population being vaccinated can protect the whole population.
 

Necronic

Staff member
The bad thing about this is that besides the autism thing, the surreal ideas of vaccine negationists now include that they are not effective altogether. A lot of these people defend that the disappearance of illnesses such as polio, etc. is due to an improvement in hygiene, diet, etc., and they back it up with the fact that their kids don't get infected despite not being vaccinated.

This is the very very bad thing of all this, to me. Their kids don't get sick because other kids that DID get vaccines are protecting them by not letting illnesses spread, but it is equally true that by not vaccinating their children they are putting other people in danger (say, people with especially weak immune systems, or people who for some reason cannot get vaccines).
If anyone ever argues that tell them you have a stone you could sell them that keeps tigers away. Its easy enough to prove, there aren't any tigers around.

Glad to see this isn't an issue that there are many disbelievers about here. This item really drives me up the darned wall. I have a friend whose mom has polio, and it's not cool. At all.
 
You know what happens when kids who aren't vaccinated come into contact with the disease? THEY CATCH IT. (yes, I know Wikipedia by itself isn't a good source, but this sums it up fairly well)

The Americas

Indigenous measles were declared to have been eliminated in North, Central, and South America; the last endemic case in the region was reported on November 12, 2002, with only Northern Argentina and rural Canada, particularly in the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, and Alberta having minor endemic status.[47] Outbreaks are still occurring, however, following importations of measles viruses from other world regions. In June 2006, an outbreak in Boston resulted after a resident became infected in India,[48] and in October 2007, a Michigan girl who had been vaccinated contracted the disease in Sweden.[49]

Between January 1 and April 25, 2008, a total of 64 confirmed measles cases were preliminarily reported in the United States to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,[50][51] the most reported by this date for any year since 2001. Of the 64 cases, 54 were associated with importation of measles from other countries into the United States, and 63 of the 64 patients were unvaccinated or had unknown or undocumented vaccination status.[52]

By July 9, 2008, a total of 127 cases were reported in 15 states (including 22 in Arizona),[53] making it the largest U.S. outbreak since 1997 (when 138 cases were reported).[54] Most of the cases were acquired outside of the United States and afflicted individuals who had not been vaccinated.

By July 30, 2008, the number of cases had grown to 131. Of these, about half involved children whose parents rejected vaccination. The 131 cases occurred in 7 different outbreaks. There were no deaths, and 15 hospitalizations. 11 of the cases had received at least one dose of the measles vaccine. 122 of the cases involved children who were unvaccinated or whose vaccination status was unknown. Some of these were under the age of one year old and below the age when vaccination is recommended, but in 63 cases the vaccinations had been refused for religious or philosophical reasons.
 
Vaccines are a conspiracy to poison us all by Bush/Obama/The Illuminati! The aliens told me so last night, so I know it's true!
 
Why the hell would I trust something that's been peer reviewed and carefully studied under scientific scrutiny?
 
Vaccinate your kids, vaccinate your wife, and vaccinate your husband, 'cuz they infectin' everyone up in here.
 
Why the hell would I trust something that's been peer reviewed and carefully studied under scientific scrutiny?
It's all a ploy of the pharmaceutical companies to earn lots of money through vaccines!! Actually, most scientists are paid by the pharma industry, so they're not reliable!

---------- Post added at 07:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 AM ----------

Glad to see this isn't an issue that there are many disbelievers about here.
Maybe a majority of lurkers believes it, they're just scared of us and our vitriol. :p[/QUOTE]

Luckily, the kind of people who use this site are people with certain interests that usually come associated with a certain respect for knowledge, which usually prevents this kind of ignorance, at least in the long run.
 
Relax people... it's about time survival of the fittest came back...

Sorry, people that can't get vaccinated, but hey, it's the price we have to pay to get rid of people who are too dumb to understand vaccinations... stuff ain't free you know...
 
Sorry, people that can't get vaccinated, but hey, it's the price we have to pay to get rid of people who are too dumb to understand vaccinations... stuff ain't free you know...
Yes, the children that don't know any better deserve to die because their parents are stupid shitbirds
 
People who have not suffered X because of Y done in the past will inevitably stop doing Y until X becomes a problem again.

Don't worry, it'll turn around, and health professionals are educating new parents. The increase in infections will only underscore their plea to have children vaccinated.

Besides, it's not vaccines that cause autism. It's halforums. My kids weren't on the autism scale prior to the creation of halforums, and now nearly half of them are.

Coincidence? I think not!
 
C

Chazwozel

Vaccines are one of the modern miracles of science, and have eliminated or helped contain some of the most dangerous diseases known to mankind. Its hard for people under 40 to appreciate how much things have changed. Most of us don't know someone with polio, or remember what it was like to be afraid of swimming pools. Or the times that parents would have scores of children because many wouldn't survive past 10. Dave knows what I am talking about.

Vaccines have been one of the true success stories of medicine. That story, however, may be getting re-written right now. Partly this is due to increasing costs and decreasing responsibility by the insurance industry, and that's a battle that will need to be fought at the government level. It should have been an easy fight, because the costs of vaccines pale in comparison to the long term costs that infection, or even worse, a wide-spread epidemic can cause.

The other problem has to do with one incredibly irresponsible and unethical doctor: Andrew Wakefield. In 1998 he published a paper linking Autism with the MMR vaccine. In it he used parental anectdotes of dates do determine links for the onset of the illness and the vaccination. The paper was eventually discredited and retracted but the damage was already done.

Since this paper came out there has been a massive drop in the vaccination rates in first-world countries, which has been linked to multiple epidemics. Regardless of how many times the scientific community discredits this link, people are still concerned about getting vaccines for their children. Instead they opt for the risk that their child could catch the disease and then spread it to other children, which is happening more and more.

And now here we are, on the path to loosing one of the greatest medical victories of all time. All due to one highly discredited paper and the irresponsible media that was willing to sew it's poison but unwilling to retract it. In the most medically advanced country in the nation it is appalling to know that we are seeing a reduction in vaccines.

I appreciate that parents have a special right to irrational concerns when it comes to their children. It's not bad parenting that lead to this. Really it is a mix of good parenting, poor education, and gross negligence by parts of the medical community and media.

I guess the reason I am writing this is that I think it is a big enough issue to present it to anyone who may have children, and am willing to thoroughly explain the issues at hand. This isn't to come across as a know it all, but as a person who sees a serious problem and wants to help. If anyone has ANY questions or comments about this please mention them. If you do think that vaccines cause autism or are a bad idea for one reason or another, please say so. I'm not going to "Chaz" you.

Also, in case anyone is interested, Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who started all of this, lost his medical license for this as well as performing chelation therapy, colonoscopies, colon biopsies, and spinal taps on children with autism. Often without the consent. And one of those children almost died.
I will "Chaz" you. If you don't get your kids vaccinated against things like MMR and Polio, you're a fucking idiot. I'm sorry.

---------- Post added at 08:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 AM ----------

Why the hell would I trust something that's been peer reviewed and carefully studied under scientific scrutiny?

I prefer to get my medical information from former Playboy models and douchebag comedians, thank you!
 
Sorry, people that can't get vaccinated, but hey, it's the price we have to pay to get rid of people who are too dumb to understand vaccinations... stuff ain't free you know...
Yes, the children that don't know any better deserve to die because their parents are stupid shitbirds[/QUOTE]

While i can theoretically sympathise with the kids going through unnecessary suffering the fact is that they are the bearers of the DNA of idiots... from nature's perspective it doesn't really matter at which point those genes stop being passed on... they simply are. *

* of course if intelligence was nothing but genes stupid people would have been the first thing to go extinct
 

Necronic

Staff member
Its not stupidity that keeps people from vaccinating. Its ignorance, misplaced trust, and misinformation, something we are all capable of. It is hardly different than the belief in homeopathy, chiropractics, vitamin mega-doses, magnet therapy, ear-candling, traditional chinese medicine, ayurvedic medicine, naturopathy etc..

In fact its almost more acceptable because it was so widely promoted in the media and had a peer-reviewed article supporting it. So don't write off people who believe in stuff like this as being morons. More than likely that list above ticked someone off on this board, and I can tell you that every thing on that list has as little if not less real scientific data backing the true nature of it.

What special KO said is exactly why issues like this bother me, and why its necessary to approach them with a gentle hand, not brute force. With topics as serious as this it is far more important to actually spread the message than it is to punish people for their beliefs.
 
C

Chazwozel

Sorry, people that can't get vaccinated, but hey, it's the price we have to pay to get rid of people who are too dumb to understand vaccinations... stuff ain't free you know...
Yes, the children that don't know any better deserve to die because their parents are stupid shitbirds[/QUOTE]

While i can theoretically sympathise with the kids going through unnecessary suffering the fact is that they are the bearers of the DNA of idiots... from nature's perspective it doesn't really matter at which point those genes stop being passed on... they simply are. *

* of course if intelligence was nothing but genes stupid people would have been the first thing to go extinct[/QUOTE]

Just because someone's parents are idiots doesn't mean they'll be idiots. There are plenty of kids who are good kids despite the fact that they're raised by morons.
 
It will only take a few sensational news media stories about kids who have to use ventilators for the rest of their life due to polio caused by parents who didn't vaccinate to get people going back to the doctor.

Although I vote they simply put an iron lung on display at each doctor's office, and tell parents it's either the vaccine, or the iron lung in a few years.

But the reality is that the parents are making a cold calculation:

The chance of becoming infected is very, very, very low. One in a million, right now. So while the consequences are severe, the overall equation is that driving their kid to school and back is more dangerous, and even the 1 in a million deaths due to vaccination is just as dangerous.

The problem with that equation is that it's selfish. It doesn't recognize the societal benefit to everyone when we are all vaccinated, and the reality is that the more people choose not to be vaccinated, the higher risk the unvaccinated face of getting the disease, not to mention the vaccinated getting it if the vaccination didn't "take".
 

Necronic

Staff member
It's called Herd Immunity

Also, just wanted to make sure that I didn't imply that Flouride in the drinking water isn't used to control the American public. That's totally true and vetted by Sciense (not to be confused with Science. Sciense is a not for profit watchdog group maintained by Alex Jones and his other freedom loving friends. Down with the Bohemian Grove! Down with Moloch!)
 
Intelligence is not genetic. The kids of idiots of make bad decisions are not necessarily bad for the gene pool too.
 
Intelligence is not genetic.
Really? That's very interesting, I'd like to find out more. What terms should I be searching for?

Nevermind. The search "Is intelligence genetic" pulls up enough information to show you are wrong. However, the intelligence, as measured by IQ and similar tests, is so dramatically changed by environmental factors that while genetics plays a role, environment completely swamps it, making it of little importance.
 
Which is my point. Genetics might give you some tendency, but unless some genetic defect affects the way your brain develops, it's how it is stimulated in the formative years that really makes a difference.

Geniuses are born in families that talk about little else than NASCAR, and mediocre idiots are born in even the most intellectual, museum-visiting, debate-loving families.

Furthermore, no matter how much you have have googled, no information shows I'm wrong. At most, you can dispute what I said as not being conclusive yet, which is as far as they've gotten. The point, as you said, is moot, though. The kids of anti-vaccination parents are not to blame.
 
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