My view on the Gas and Krisken Graph Measuring Contest:
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GasBandit
Staff member
Ignoring the sudden budgetary crap thrown in....
1) Many, if not most, of these concerns could be avoided if people just had an official, federal ID card. I know the anglosaxon people don't like'm for some weird reason, but seriously. I dare you to make a forgery of a Belgian ID card that a cop won't spot miles away (well, with a chip reader, anyway :-P).
2) What's the problem with a cop pulling you over for a routine check? If a police officer feels the need to pull me over for a check of my papers, I really don't mind. You're saying people object to a cop stopping them to see if they're legally insured, have the proper papers, a driving permit, whatever? No? Than why suddenly object if they're checking your ID card? Doesn't contain any really new info except nationality status.
3) "Reasonable doubt" for being an illegal immigrant doesn't necessarily mean "racial profiling". Heck, we have people on this forum who are pasty white and mexican, and vice versa. Not speaking English, driving with foreign license plates, running from the police, not having an official address,... could be seen as suspicious enough to warrant a check, IMHO.
4) Racial profiling exists because it's effective. It's also illegal when carried too far. If a guy is robbed, -assuming- it'll be a black guy who did it and not even considering whites is wrong. Assuming the chances are higher, if the crime happened in a black neighbourhood, makes sense. Women in full body covering clothing are checked at airport security more thoroughly than you or me. WHy? Because they're more likely to hide something. And so on.
1) Many, if not most, of these concerns could be avoided if people just had an official, federal ID card. I know the anglosaxon people don't like'm for some weird reason, but seriously. I dare you to make a forgery of a Belgian ID card that a cop won't spot miles away (well, with a chip reader, anyway :-P).
2) What's the problem with a cop pulling you over for a routine check? If a police officer feels the need to pull me over for a check of my papers, I really don't mind. You're saying people object to a cop stopping them to see if they're legally insured, have the proper papers, a driving permit, whatever? No? Than why suddenly object if they're checking your ID card? Doesn't contain any really new info except nationality status.
3) "Reasonable doubt" for being an illegal immigrant doesn't necessarily mean "racial profiling". Heck, we have people on this forum who are pasty white and mexican, and vice versa. Not speaking English, driving with foreign license plates, running from the police, not having an official address,... could be seen as suspicious enough to warrant a check, IMHO.
4) Racial profiling exists because it's effective. It's also illegal when carried too far. If a guy is robbed, -assuming- it'll be a black guy who did it and not even considering whites is wrong. Assuming the chances are higher, if the crime happened in a black neighbourhood, makes sense. Women in full body covering clothing are checked at airport security more thoroughly than you or me. WHy? Because they're more likely to hide something. And so on.
GasBandit
Staff member
In most sections of the country, an officer could NOT pull you over just to check your papers. You have to be visibly and obviously in violation of some law to be pulled over - run a red light, speeding, expired plates, etc. It used to be that the cop couldn't even pull you over for not wearing your seat belt even though it was against the law, though many places have upgraded seat belt infractions to "primary" offense status. But nowhere can a police officer just pull you over to check your insurance papers.
We have official ID cards, though they are issued by states rather than the federal government.
The problem is twofold. One, no one wants cops to "randomly" pull people over, as it would lead to certain people (dark skin, for example) getting pulled over all the time and others getting ignored. It's basically an invitation to harassment. Two, we specifically have provisions in our Constitution to protect against illegal searches. Cops just can't randomly start searching people, looking for violations even if they have no reason to suspect wrongdoing.
You are totally, completely wrong on this. Completely. I love that your example of what is suspicious enough for a warrant check includes racial profiling in it.
I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't make it right. We still want to protect the rights of innocent individuals from the government, which definitely includes being lumped together with criminals because of skin color, language, and so on.
C
Chibibar
National ID card would be a good thing. Maybe SS card with a picture on it (since it is national 
just combine it)
If the police pull over an NON-Hispanic person and automatically ask for citizenship paper, then I'll be cool with it, but the AZ law is basically targeting illegal Hispanic (Mexico origin to be exact) at least it can open up to abuse, now if it has become standard that a police pull over anyone and ask for insurance, registration and citizenship paper, then why not?
If you forgot your paper, you go to jail (in this case it happen already if you can't prove you are a citizen with the new AZ law) Will the Legal citizen can sue for wrongful imprisonment? also will such law will actually be passed if such a thing were to happen? I notice that people who are FOR AZ laws are usually non-Hispanics. (predominantly white, but I don't see many Asian in the protest. I can't say for other Ethics)
but we all know we don't live anywhere near a perfect world that is not likely going to happen and racial profiling WILL happen.
Edit: Blah! stupid autospell check and a broken brain
just combine it)If the police pull over an NON-Hispanic person and automatically ask for citizenship paper, then I'll be cool with it, but the AZ law is basically targeting illegal Hispanic (Mexico origin to be exact) at least it can open up to abuse, now if it has become standard that a police pull over anyone and ask for insurance, registration and citizenship paper, then why not?
If you forgot your paper, you go to jail (in this case it happen already if you can't prove you are a citizen with the new AZ law) Will the Legal citizen can sue for wrongful imprisonment? also will such law will actually be passed if such a thing were to happen? I notice that people who are FOR AZ laws are usually non-Hispanics. (predominantly white, but I don't see many Asian in the protest. I can't say for other Ethics)
but we all know we don't live anywhere near a perfect world that is not likely going to happen and racial profiling WILL happen.
Edit: Blah! stupid autospell check and a broken brain
C
Chibibar
Sorry I was typing that and then called away for some work and continue typing but my brain kept going. I made some corrections and hopefully it made more sense
J
JONJONAUG
So hey, some of the bill got put on hold by a federal judge for being unconstitutional.
United States v. State of Arizona said:
Whoa there. People being randomly pulled over is accepted - and, in fact, required - in most European countries. If americans want to, once again, consider rediculous things "rights", their call, but you'd better still pull over if yuo're in France or Germany and a police officer signals you, even if you're doing nothing wrong. How the heck are they supposed to check whether or not you're insured, or have a driver's permit, or whatever, if they're not allowed to randomly check up?
If your cops are using this kind of thing for serious harassment - fire them and get better cops. If you don't trust any sort of cop with the authority to check that you're following the law - well, go to Ethiopia or something, and see how well things work there.
How so? None of things I mentioned refer in any way to race. Speaking English isn't a legal requirement, but not speaking it at all is a sign you're most likely an alien - and a badly integrated one at that .Sure you can be there legally...So? Reasonable doubt doesn't mean they're not allowed to be wrong. If a cop pulls me over and wants to see my tourist visa while I'm in the US, I don't have a problem with it. If a cop stops you in Belgium and you don't speak Dutch or French, expect to be ordered to show some official proof of what you're doing here.
Better to have 1000 guilty go free than 1 innocent locked up, I'm all in favour. I'm not talking about locking everyone with a dark skin tone up just for the heck of it, I'm saying it's perfectly normal and OK for me to have a cop ask me for my papers to see whether I'm legal, and whatever. Setting the individual rights so supremely above all other concerns is asking for problems.
Why is it that the US is at the same time, the country with the strictest security requirements and demands (metal detectors in public places, searches,...) and the country where peopel seem to take the weirdest things as against their rights?
The US and Belgium are different. We like our way, you can have your way. I don't think "But we do it differently in Belgium" is a valid argument for or against the law in AZ. If an American complained about a Belgian law, and the only argument was "Well here in 'Merica we do things differently/better..." it would be a non-stop bitchfest about arrogant Americans telling the world how to think.
*shrug* So? I'm not saying one way or the other is necessarily wrong, or better. I'm just saying what -I- find odd or strange about it, and how I'd look at it.
Believe me, I've long since stopped thinking a discussion on a forum could change minds. For me, it's a way to compare minds and reasoning, yes - not to try and win an argument.
Of course you're entitled to your own way of doing/looking at things. Doesn't mean it can't strike me as weird, or that I can't have an opinion about it, and voice it, too.
Believe me, I've long since stopped thinking a discussion on a forum could change minds. For me, it's a way to compare minds and reasoning, yes - not to try and win an argument.
Of course you're entitled to your own way of doing/looking at things. Doesn't mean it can't strike me as weird, or that I can't have an opinion about it, and voice it, too.
People I've talked to from Belgium say they feel they have less rights than their country's criminals. I've known them longer than Bubble and heard them complain about it longer too, so I'm inclined to believe them over his flag-waving.
So far, I got randomly pulled over (aka drove into a random checkpoint) twice. They signal/mark you well before they can even make out your face and if there is any pre meditated reason to do so it's because of the type of car you're driving. Being an European like Bubble here, I can understand his viewpoint on this just fine. If the choice to randomly pull people over is not made randomly, you've got yourself a cop that shouldn't be there.
The feeling of having less rights then a criminal seems to stem from severe lack of knowledge of ones rights (I can't really blame anyone for it though, I don't know them all either). The second you get booked you get a lawyer and he/she will make sure you understand and exercise all your rights, thus giving anyone the feeling like the suspected criminal having more rights. In reality we all have (or at least should have) equal rights, the second I get picked up for something I will go through the same thing as the guy I read/heard about in the news.
The only thing that always bothers me with criminality in the news is that the criminal gets his/her name and face protected here (in the more official/respected news outlets anyway), while the victim is put out there for all to see. If anything, the victim needs more protecting.
/offtopic
The feeling of having less rights then a criminal seems to stem from severe lack of knowledge of ones rights (I can't really blame anyone for it though, I don't know them all either). The second you get booked you get a lawyer and he/she will make sure you understand and exercise all your rights, thus giving anyone the feeling like the suspected criminal having more rights. In reality we all have (or at least should have) equal rights, the second I get picked up for something I will go through the same thing as the guy I read/heard about in the news.
The only thing that always bothers me with criminality in the news is that the criminal gets his/her name and face protected here (in the more official/respected news outlets anyway), while the victim is put out there for all to see. If anything, the victim needs more protecting.
/offtopic
C
Chibibar
I say continue to voice it (within the rules of the forum of course) I personally have change my mind many times in forums cause someone brought in a good argument
I'm man enough to admit I'm wrong.
Necronic
Staff member
I will agree with bubbles that we have a very different viewpoint on the world compared to Europe. We are incredibly capitalist, we have limited social programs, we have the largest and strongest military in the world, and yet, arguably, we have the most broad concept of freedom v government. Honestly it makes sense, as does the European system. Highly socialist = less personal freedom. Highly capitalist = more personal freedom.
Personally I think this is why this country works so well. There is a LOT of power in flux in America, so much so that if anyone had the motive and the ability to capture it and use it they could become the most powerful person in the world overnight. Obviously there are plenty of people with the motive, but the ability? Even the President has only limited capabilities when it comes to accessing that power and/or interfering with the rights of the population.
We are a country of rebels, and for some reason we never lost that mentality. Maybe its because nothing here is old, even tradition. Tradition is just just another kind of governance. Maybe it's because we are so isolated from Europe. Maybe it's because we are all a bunch of jingoistic neanderthalls. Maybe it's fallout from the Cold War. I choose the believe that our profound belief in personal freedom is a self-perpetuating concept with a positive feedback loop. When you embrace it and nurture it, it grows like kudzu.
Personally I think this is why this country works so well. There is a LOT of power in flux in America, so much so that if anyone had the motive and the ability to capture it and use it they could become the most powerful person in the world overnight. Obviously there are plenty of people with the motive, but the ability? Even the President has only limited capabilities when it comes to accessing that power and/or interfering with the rights of the population.
We are a country of rebels, and for some reason we never lost that mentality. Maybe its because nothing here is old, even tradition. Tradition is just just another kind of governance. Maybe it's because we are so isolated from Europe. Maybe it's because we are all a bunch of jingoistic neanderthalls. Maybe it's fallout from the Cold War. I choose the believe that our profound belief in personal freedom is a self-perpetuating concept with a positive feedback loop. When you embrace it and nurture it, it grows like kudzu.
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Chibibar
I also believe that the U.S. is still pretty young compare to the other European countries. We are under 300 years old
So the ideas are still "fresh" per se (that is my opinion) but personal freedom is a BIGGIE here in the states. It is funny that a lot of people will "gloss" over many political stuff, but when it starts to intrude on YOUR wallet and personal freedom, then it gets ugly.
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Chibibar
"brown" people in AZ maybe
but in Cali? it would be them yellow people with skinny eyes... can't trust them I tell ya! ^_~
GasBandit
Staff member
"brown" people in AZ maybe
but in Cali? it would be them yellow people with skinny eyes... can't trust them I tell ya! ^_~[/QUOTE]Yellow's just brown that's been run through the washer on "heavy" too many times.
C
Chibibar
"brown" people in AZ maybe
but in Cali? it would be them yellow people with skinny eyes... can't trust them I tell ya! ^_~[/QUOTE]Yellow's just brown that's been run through the washer on "heavy" too many times.[/QUOTE]
LOL.. I love it! that is pretty funny (yes. I'm Asian and I still think that is funny)
GasBandit
Staff member
"brown" people in AZ maybe
but in Cali? it would be them yellow people with skinny eyes... can't trust them I tell ya! ^_~[/QUOTE]Yellow's just brown that's been run through the washer on "heavy" too many times.[/QUOTE]
LOL.. I love it! that is pretty funny (yes. I'm Asian and I still think that is funny)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I only say that to asian people. White people have a 50% incident rate of gasping in horror. Asians think it's hilarious usually.
"brown" people in AZ maybe
but in Cali? it would be them yellow people with skinny eyes... can't trust them I tell ya! ^_~[/QUOTE]Yellow's just brown that's been run through the washer on "heavy" too many times.[/QUOTE]
LOL.. I love it! that is pretty funny (yes. I'm Asian and I still think that is funny)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I only say that to asian people. White people have a 50% incident rate of gasping in horror. Asians think it's hilarious usually.[/QUOTE]
I didn't, but I'm only half-Asian myself. Assuming that the other 50% of white people found the joke funny, and 100% of Asians, you had a 75% chance of being thought funny, so I guess the odds were just against you today.
Well,as a European I can understandBubbles point of view,but as a Hamburger(city,not the food) I can also understand AZ laws.We have a huge population of immigrants here,of various flavors of "im not gonna integrate into your society,but i want to have all the rights and benefits that your country has to offer". As an Immigrant myself this pisses me off to no end.If you are gonna act like a guest then do so, but guests leave.If you want to live under my roof,you gotta ply by my rules.Im not asking you to become 100% german,or to give up your traditions,heck,show em off for all I care.Adds a little flavor to the community.But the mentality that many of the immigrant communities have is "Bah,Germans suck ass. Im proud to be a Turk/polish/Yugo/Cosovoist/etc,their rules are shitty so im gonna live by my own and damn of you people dont conform to this." But if they do somethign wrong they cry "Please,i wannt to be judged by you shitty german laws." and once they get called on their BS they scream "Foul! Nazis! just because im a minority! This is racial profiling.Just as expected of you germans."
Sorry...I always get into rant mode when immigration and integrations are the topic of debate. But yeah,I can see where the people of AZ are coming from.I dont really condone it,but I can understand.
Sorry...I always get into rant mode when immigration and integrations are the topic of debate. But yeah,I can see where the people of AZ are coming from.I dont really condone it,but I can understand.
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Chibibar
personally, I think it is best if we do the following.
1. Everyone get ID card. Technically we already have this. A person get a driver's license (state ID) or can get a state ID for those who don't drive. There is no age limit for State ID that I know of. When people enter the country, they get an ID card (work ID, Greencard, student ID etc etc these are valid ID card) Heck, I would be ok with Federal level ID card (we do have that call Passport ) that way it is uniform. I have friends from many states and all of the state ID don't even look alike. There are some basic info, but not at the same place and such and can be faked.
2. ID Card (i.e. registered) gets benefit. So you don't have a card, you get deported (this has to be done on Federal level cause it will cause many confusion since each state will probably handle things differently and have different rules)
Of course this will change A LOT of things in the country
1. You can't get help if you don't have ID card (i.e. no hospital, no benefits, no unemployment, and no employment since that would be against the law)
2. Everyone carry ID card at all time
3. Some people don't like carry the ID card at all time. This can cause some problem initially. What can state do? what if you don't have your ID card on you, do you get fined? sent to jail? I know that hospitals in the U.S. don't usually turn anyone away when they really need help (emergency) but that is part of the problem. Of course it would seem cruel if you got into a wreak and left your wallet at home with your ID card
This of course will need to be a sweeping change. Sure it sounds cruel, but people can't have "best of both worlds"
1. Everyone get ID card. Technically we already have this. A person get a driver's license (state ID) or can get a state ID for those who don't drive. There is no age limit for State ID that I know of. When people enter the country, they get an ID card (work ID, Greencard, student ID etc etc these are valid ID card) Heck, I would be ok with Federal level ID card (we do have that call Passport
) that way it is uniform. I have friends from many states and all of the state ID don't even look alike. There are some basic info, but not at the same place and such and can be faked.2. ID Card (i.e. registered) gets benefit. So you don't have a card, you get deported (this has to be done on Federal level cause it will cause many confusion since each state will probably handle things differently and have different rules)
Of course this will change A LOT of things in the country
1. You can't get help if you don't have ID card (i.e. no hospital, no benefits, no unemployment, and no employment since that would be against the law)
2. Everyone carry ID card at all time
3. Some people don't like carry the ID card at all time. This can cause some problem initially. What can state do? what if you don't have your ID card on you, do you get fined? sent to jail? I know that hospitals in the U.S. don't usually turn anyone away when they really need help (emergency) but that is part of the problem. Of course it would seem cruel if you got into a wreak and left your wallet at home with your ID card
This of course will need to be a sweeping change. Sure it sounds cruel, but people can't have "best of both worlds"
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