North_Ranger
Staff member
That's it. This thread is goin' to the Politics.
Is Healthcare a Right?
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Chibibar
Which just leads to more questions for me. I mean, what is a self-righteous fuck? Feeling morally superior to others about getting it on?
So many questions...[/QUOTE]
I think the basic tenent of
Life, Liberty, and pursuit of happiness is a basic right of all U.S. citizens. I believe that the original founding father probably don't want big government control/seize/restrict these basic rights to its citizens.
of course as time changes, so does interpretation.
People work and live to pursuit their happiness. If a person is sick, they are no longer pursuiting (not a word) their happiness, thus the government is trying to provide a way to remove that malady and thus the person can continue their pursuit of happiness.
The problem lies that not everyone in the U.S. is a citizen, but judicially have state that rights are still TRUE for illegal immigrant (I do believe an article I post a while back that is gone about illegal immigrant has right to privacy and illegal search and seizure of another crime cause their deportation) so maybe the laws need changing.
I don't know.
K
Kitty Sinatra
But that's no different than what you have now with patients who can't pay. The doctor's gonna wind up providing free care or none at all.Gruebeard- Yes, it is a solution, but also changes the oath doctors take when they became doctorsunless they are willing to give free care out of their own pocket.
If you're referring to the hospitals not being allowed to turn away patients. You can still have it that they treat anyone without a Health Card, but they provide only the minimum care needed.
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Slightly tangential. I'm getting the impression that we view our hospitals - our emergency rooms specifically - different than y'all. The e.r. is one of the first places we consider going for even mild issues; an intrinsic component of our health care.
What I mean is, it seems y'all think of the e.r. as one part trauma care and one part poor man's health care.
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Andromache
So what? it goes to politics. It's still a worthwhile thread (dark audit's venom against GB aside) for the divergent views.
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crono1224
Now we must decide is dying from something curable a problem? Its not if we should do the bionic man to him, it's does the person deserved to be saved from a curable disease or illness?
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Iaculus
Which just leads to more questions for me. I mean, what is a self-righteous fuck? Feeling morally superior to others about getting it on?
So many questions...[/QUOTE]
Self-righteous fucker: One who derides others/dismisses their opinions as invalid because they are virgins.
Yay, new terminology!
For what it's worth, I think it's a right. And since healthcare is paid by health insurance it's a good thing that's mandatory here as well. Most of the arguing seems to be about semantics while everyone agrees that people that need treatment to live need to be able to receive said treatment.
GasBandit
Staff member
We consider the emergency room to be for... you know... emergencies? Spurting, sucking, gushing, gonna-die-if-I-don't-get-treatment-immediately type stuff.
Everything else we generally just make an appointment with our GP for, or if it's worse than merely inconvenient, we show up at the office and wait for an opening. It's usually not a problem to be seen same day. Even without going to the emergency room.
Which is one of the good things about American health care.
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Mr_Chaz
That's a fair assessment and observation. I was hoping to avoid the political part by avoiding my reasoning. So here it goes.
I think healthcare is a right because life is sacred. For me it really boils down to that. No matter who we are or what we believe, no one life is more important than another. Healthcare is the preservation of life.[/QUOTE]
To me this is it perfectly.
I feel we should, as a society, be preserving life in all its forms. You may say that the constitution doesn't support that, you may say there's no law to make it a right, but why the hell should that matter? As a group we should be helping people to live.
So to go about this...will the free market do it? No. Will a government step in to do it?
Yes. Maybe not perfectly, but at least it's there.
We have a right to healthcare because we don't have the right to choose to let others die.
---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------
We consider the emergency room to be for... you know... emergencies? Spurting, sucking, gushing, gonna-die-if-I-don't-get-treatment-immediately type stuff.
Everything else we generally just make an appointment with our GP for, or if it's worse than merely inconvenient, we show up at the office and wait for an opening. It's usually not a problem to be seen same day. Even without going to the emergency room.
Which is one of the good things about American health care.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that works over here too, so your American bias fails again. Oh how badly does the NHS suck. Alas. Yadda yadda.
GasBandit
Staff member
And yet, that's just what socialized medicine does.
Even if we pool all our money as a society, there isn't enough to make sure that nobody ever dies, even just from preventable things.
And even cancer and death aside... it also means that government will be making the call on whether a 68 year old gets hip replacement surgery to correct chronic pain... or just gets put on painkillers the rest of his life because it's more economically viable.
---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------
We were talking about canada. NHS sucks for an entirely different set of reasons, which I've gone into over and over again in the GBPT.
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Chibibar
The problem is that when it start hitting each person's pocketbook. It gets personal.
I mean in the U.S. we usually pay almost 35% of our paycheck (before we get it) for a lot of taxes and benefits. It would hurt A LOT if I have to dish out another 10% or even 5% of my check to insured everyone else (collectively)
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Kitty Sinatra
I'm not looking for a pissing match. I was trying to get a sense of what goes on down there. Could you describe your shit without the patriotic crap?
Covar, yeah we don't have requirements for photo id for voting, either.
The Health Card seems to be acceptable to us as similar to a driver's license; plus, for a long time the health card wasn't even a photo ID, it was just a card with our name and health card number . . . that's actually still the card I have and use. The photo card was implemented because apparently we were having issues with fraud; i suppose; I never really thought it was much of an issue.
(rather aside, we also seem to totally recoil at the idea of a universal ID card, too, one that would combine the driver's license, health card and I suppose fishing and gaming licenses and whatever else we carry around in our wallet that's issued by the gov't)
GasBandit
Staff member
I'm not looking for a pissing match. I was trying to get a sense of what goes on down there. Could you describe your shit without the patriotic crap?
[/quote]
Whoops, I'm sorry, I forgot we're not allowed to bring up positive aspects of the American system because the media has decreed we all think it sucks, and therefore every offhanded mention of a positive aspect of the system is tantamount to a jingoistic tirade. Pardon me. If you had said "it doesn't cost me $300 every time I go to the emergency room, which is one of the good things about Canadian health care" I wouldn't have taken offense necessitating irritable profanity. Maybe if you're not looking for a pissing match, you should refrain from turning insulting because of your oversensitivity.
Fraud's always a concern. Even with the government health provision systems we already have in place (Medicaid for the poor, Medicare for the elderly) are rife with fraud as well, at every level from the patient to the doctor to the clinic and up. Incidentally, the Medicare card is also not a photo ID.
I'd say recoiling is the right reaction there.
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Mr_Chaz
Yes it is, but free at the point of use isn't. What's your point?
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Kitty Sinatra
he means that here in Canada not all aspects of our health care are paid for by the gov't. As noted, ambulance rides are billed to us. Little things like slings are apparently billed to us, too (though I never actually received a bill for that).
There are lots of things that we pay for out of pocket
There are lots of things that we pay for out of pocket
Like my economics books say "Ain't no such thing as a free lunch."
I'd also like to point out that, in BC anyways, you have to pay for your MSP (which is basically public option insurance) yourself if your company doesn't pay for it for you.
---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------
When one night in CICU can run well past some folks' annual salary, we're waaay past willing.[/QUOTE]
And thus the crux of your argument becomes apparent.
You don't believe in the 'right to healthcare', you believe in the 'right not to pay full price for healthcare'.
Big difference.
I'd also like to point out that, in BC anyways, you have to pay for your MSP (which is basically public option insurance) yourself if your company doesn't pay for it for you.
---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------
Now that's comedy. Willing. You should head to Hollywood, 'cause that's just golden.
When one night in CICU can run well past some folks' annual salary, we're waaay past willing.[/QUOTE]
And thus the crux of your argument becomes apparent.
You don't believe in the 'right to healthcare', you believe in the 'right not to pay full price for healthcare'.
Big difference.
GasBandit
Staff member
Heh, careful, last time I started talking like that, somebody accused me of getting all my political views from Heinlein novels.
J
JCM
Heh, careful, last time I started talking like that, somebody accused me of getting all my political views from Heinlein novels.[/QUOTE]Looking at the state of your country´s economy, looks like some people need to read his novels.
Specially Starship Troopers, I love the concept of only having rights AFTER serving the government.
Heh, careful, last time I started talking like that, somebody accused me of getting all my political views from Heinlein novels.[/QUOTE]
I'm a regular poster to FreeRepublic, FreeDominion, Conservatism and CanPolitik on LJ and if there's one thing I've learned. Voicing any conservative views, no matter how mundane or mainstream, will bring out the dipshits.
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Chazwozel
Heh, careful, last time I started talking like that, somebody accused me of getting all my political views from Heinlein novels.[/QUOTE]
I'm a regular poster to FreeRepublic, FreeDominion, Conservatism and CanPolitik on LJ and if there's one thing I've learned. Voicing any conservative views, no matter how mundane or mainstream, will bring out the dipshits.[/QUOTE]
I can't take any extremist seriously, sorry.
Far right Conservatism is the bastion of the fearful. Like it or not, the world changes and is flexible (even in nature) is the given rule of thumb for those who want to change with it. I'll ask you this, since most hard-core conservatives are also hard core Christians. Who do you worship? If your answer is Jesus, you're basing your faith in a radial, left wing nut job who went completely against the conservative mainstream of his lifetime.
But my biggest problem is that conservatives take any issue and try to make it as black and white, good guys vs. bad guys as possible. That's also not how reality works.
GasBandit
Staff member
Heh, careful, last time I started talking like that, somebody accused me of getting all my political views from Heinlein novels.[/quote]Looking at the state of your country´s economy, looks like some people need to read his novels.
Specially Starship Troopers, I love the concept of only having rights AFTER serving the government.[/quote]
There's definitely something to be said for full enfranchisement only coming after military service, that's for sure. But that's another thread. I liked "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" better than starship troopers anyway, as far as political sci-fi goes.
That depends on which way you're defining conservatism - the classical definition which means being "reactionary," or the contemporary definition which means "emphasizing personal responsibility over societal responsibility."
I will say though, if an issue isn't black or white, it just means perspective isn't broad enough.
Yes, but immediately you classify anyone that leans right as 'extremist' which makes you just as guilty as 'black and whitism' as your supposed extremist. And then you also throw in the ol' canard that in order to be a 'hard core conservative' you also have to be a 'hard core Christian'.
I don't go to church although my grandfather was a church elder at the United Church and my grandmother was a Sunday school teacher. I don't believe that organized religion is healthy because it trades off one's relationship with God for an attachment to a very fallible organization run by man. There's a large difference between conservatism and Republicanism. I'd allocate to Republicanism the Christiansanity that throws a lot of people off.
I grew up in a blue collar town, where working hard netted you rewards. Liberalism tells us that we should be ashamed of this success and pass on that reward to those who are less fortunate, or worse, who don't want to work as hard to accomplish that goal. It's the ant and the grasshopper fable. Apparently we also need to be protected or coddled in order to survive this mean old world. A coddled youngster doesn't become a strapping young man, he becomes a bitter radio DJ. You should enjoy the fruits of your labour, and if you don't want to work, you shouldn't get to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour.
Stagnancy is not always good; old is not always best however change is not always progress; new is not always better.
Anyways, I've got tonnes more speechifying to do on the matter but it's all blah blah blah.
Thats... not exactly how I would phrase that.
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Chibibar
I'm not looking for a pissing match. I was trying to get a sense of what goes on down there. Could you describe your shit without the patriotic crap?
[/QUOTE]
Basically in a nutshell that anyone can go to ER and seek help without any validation of ID/payment or anything. Once you get cared, you are sent a bill (or never get one if you gave fake/wrong address) eventually these bills will go to collection if not paid and then either it finally get paid (payment plan) or hospital takes a loss. This is where the issue comes into play.
The thing is that, the ER room are open to the public. Generally most people would use it for emergencies, but paying your medical bills are always "optional" if you don't mind the credit hit.
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crono1224
And when the economy took a shit and a bunch of people lost their jobs, maybe some that have been working 20+ years putting their hard work in and your fuck free market people shit on all of them. Now they are piss broke can't afford to buy a fucking granola bar at walmart but you expect them to be able to afford health care?
Ya maybe the excuse of personal responsibility works in a perfect ecconomy but once wall street fucked a shit ton of people out of jobs and 401k and what ever else their hard work meant fuckall to being able to afford health care.
So stop using people getting free health care are lazy, it doesn't always work like that.
Ya maybe the excuse of personal responsibility works in a perfect ecconomy but once wall street fucked a shit ton of people out of jobs and 401k and what ever else their hard work meant fuckall to being able to afford health care.
So stop using people getting free health care are lazy, it doesn't always work like that.
K
Kitty Sinatra
Gotcha.
Saying that the hospital takes a loss kinda raises another little question
Just from watching the tv show er, I get the impression that there are publicly funded hospitals, and privately funded (businesses essentially) hospitals. Is this the case? And if so do the private hospitals even have emergency rooms, and if they do are they more stringent in the paperwork?
I'm starting to get curious on the details of how the system functions.
Saying that the hospital takes a loss kinda raises another little question
Just from watching the tv show er, I get the impression that there are publicly funded hospitals, and privately funded (businesses essentially) hospitals. Is this the case? And if so do the private hospitals even have emergency rooms, and if they do are they more stringent in the paperwork?
I'm starting to get curious on the details of how the system functions.
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Cuyval Dar
And thus the crux of your argument becomes apparent.
You don't believe in the 'right to healthcare', you believe in the 'right not to pay full price for healthcare'.
Big difference.[/quote]
Hit the nail right on the head.
Thats... not exactly how I would phrase that.[/quote]
No kidding.
K
Kitty Sinatra
there's prolly a pill for that, Cajungal. Maybe your insurance covers the prescription.
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Chibibar
I don't think many people are talking about that right now.
Before the economy tanked, there are people exploiting the system already. The U.S. economy is on the verge of crumbling down anyways consider all the stuff going on the in the past 10 years (auto, insurance, housing, inflation etc etc) Just many people didn't want to see it or believe it until it happens.
Now currently the system that is in place (providing care regardless of pay) hurts the economy even more since like you said honest people who been working for ages and try to save up in their 401k tanked, but they still need health care. People get sick, people need their meds, so the medical bill piles up. What can we do about that?
There are two sides of the issues of many things and sadly from those two sides spawn many little sides that can help/hinder the situtation. Hospitals are getting hit harder now than before since many people CAN'T afford to pay because they don't have a job.
This is why I personally believe Obama's healthcare plan is the wrong step right now. I believe he should be concentrating on the "new new deal" to get people jobs FIRST then these people will be able to afford their own healthcare THEN see who are left and work with that.
Making affordable healthcare doesn't mean jack if people who needs it can't even afford to put food on the table or roof over their heads.
This is probably the best article I have seen regarding the systemic problems of the American health care system.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
It's neither really pro or con the Obama plan, but addresses more how incentives throughout the entire system are flawed and have led to our current dilemna, and how Obama's plan is more band-aid than surgery.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
It's neither really pro or con the Obama plan, but addresses more how incentives throughout the entire system are flawed and have led to our current dilemna, and how Obama's plan is more band-aid than surgery.
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