Internet, we hardly knew ye.

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GasBandit

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"Crime won't go away, so what is the point of doing anything about it?" is all I read there.
Not necessarily on target there... it's more like, "no matter how hard we come down on underage drinking, it never seems to stop." Then you look at nations such as germany, which don't criminalize minors having alcohol, you find that while there is still kids drinking, it's actually less than in the US.

A crime isn't a crime isn't a crime... when the crime has to deal with, as I said, basically intangible goods/services, it all starts to get a bit twilight zone and you can't just use the same method you use to stop things like murder or arson.
 
I'm just a little surprised that people are saying that movies/music/games produced by people who put time and money into shouldn't be protected. I guess I don't get it.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I'm just a little surprised that people are saying that movies/music/games produced by people who put time and money into shouldn't be protected. I guess I don't get it.
It's not a matter of shouldn't, it's a matter of literally can't - not with punitive measures and inconvenience. As I alluded, the new silver bullet against piracy is convenience (and a realistic price point).

And this is nothing. As china comes more and more onto the national cyberstage, there's going to be another huge realignment along what can be expected for virtual goods to cost (and let's face it - just about every form of entertainment these days constitutes virtual goods). After all, before TF2 went free to play, there was Final Combat ... the most blatant ripoff (of TF2 and battlefield heroes) since Matt Groening put Arnold Schwartzenegger on the simpsons and called him Ranier Wolfcastle - only it's not parody and it sure as hell isn't fair use... but what could valve/EA do about it? Literally nothing - the Chinese openly scoff at western copyrights and refuse to enforce them.

The fact of the matter is, a dramatic shift in the economics of bringing a product to market is upon us all... and it is seizmic in proportions. The current purveyors of content (not creators, but distributors mind you) are dinosaurs trying to make comets illegal. Adaptation or extinction are the only two real choices.
 
When the printing press came around, the same thing happened - people who created works complained that the printing press made it too easy for others to copy and sell their work without paying the creator.

They created copyright laws that protected them, and they can GO TO COURT and get them to stop distribution. Are book publisher complaining right now? No - they are taking people to court. The Harry Potter books resulted in thousands of lawsuits. The creator of that series was able to protect her art. She didn't scream and cry about how we need MORE laws to make it easier for her to protect her content - the existing laws are sufficient.

Right now we have something FAR easier than a lawsuit for online content. The DMCA allows a copyright owner to CLAIM infringement, and the ISP or service must remove it immediately without a lawsuit, without "innocent until proven guilty" or anything - it's trivial for a copyright holder to stop distribution online.

Why do they need more protections? The internet is a worldwide, superfast, instant-copy printing press - but it's just a printing press, and the new laws created just for the internet account for the speed and quantity of distribution that the internet enables more than the printing press.

The VCR allowed people to make copies and congress affirmed then, as they should now, that the tools that allow copyright infringement, but are not used solely for infringement, should not be limited.

We have copyright law. We have courts. We have the over-reaching DMCA. Now they want to force OTHER people to be their police. They are trying to make it the job of other people to protect their copyright.

Copyright is a priveledge. It's not free. It's not a public or government funded program. Copyright holders have to go to some - sometimes extensive - effort to protect themselves, but the law should not make it our job to protect their works. It should not make it Google's job to protect their works.

SOPA and PIPA go too far.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
I'm just a little surprised that people are saying that movies/music/games produced by people who put time and money into shouldn't be protected. I guess I don't get it.
They should be protected. However, expecting internet services to either have zero copyright-infringement or be shut down is a good way to harm artists and creativity, not help them. Keep in mind that many independent musical acts rely on stuff like MegaUpload, BitTorrent and other file sharing methods to get their material out to fans.

The way to protect artists is to better define what rights they have, and what rights consumers have. Not to make the punishments harsher, or to give greater power to large media corporations. Just look at how many creators of music, games, video and other media have come out to say that SOPA and PIPA are a threat to their art. That's not just creators whose work might be directly shut-down, that includes indie game developers who often see a higher percentage of players pirating their games than major publishers do.

The more power is stripped away from consumers in being able to enjoy the media they want, the more they're going to rebel by infringing. If you want the public to respect copyright, then they'll have to be shown respect in return. Foster some goodwill. The market has shown time and time again that people will eagerly pay when it's easy and gets them hassle-free results, and they also are willing to give credit where credit is due. People like to be fans. Start setting up the system to allow them to be the fans they want to be.

Maybe made secure with some sort of hardware USB dongle. I dunno, I'm just spitballing now too.
Why should it need a USB dongle? The material is already out there being pirated. Ripping from physical media is easy and the media is sold in stores. Steaming media is a lot easier to control than either of those. If you have to log-in and you don't have a local file to keep, then there's really no need for anything else. Netflix streams without a dongle, Amazon streams movies without a dongle, etc. etc.
 
I'm just a little surprised that people are saying that movies/music/games produced by people who put time and money into shouldn't be protected. I guess I don't get it.
No one is saying they shouldn't have some protections, but frankly, there are only really two things in the long run they can protect. The ability to claim the item in question as their own creative works, and the ability to then sell those items in the market. No one should be able to claim they sang a Kanye West song, and then sell it on ebay without ever buying it themselves. There have always been great protections for those things I just mentioned, the likelihood of me selling Photoshop in the US is nearly non-existent outside of maybe trying to sell off some old CDs I bought, and I surely can't claim I am the director of Thor.

Here is the biggest rub. "Piracy" itself and the actual, real consequence of it have always been negligible. It's usually smoke.

Let me try to explain it the best I can, let us say we have five hundred people living in a small town. A new game has just come out for $60 called Super Death Kill Squad (SDKS). Now 250 of the people are "OMG the new game I must have it yes!" and go out, throwing all the money down on the game, or the collectors, or such and such, without question. The other 250 are pretty much just "Meh, looks stupid" and lets for arguement, say they instead pirated it.

The issue here is that the company that published SDKS see that as 250 sales that would have happened should piracy have not existed, that to them is money lost. The issue, is that many of those people had no intention to purchase it, and the piracy was more because "Hey, it's free, maybe I can give it a try".

Now moving further, lets say that after playing the game, 150 of them decided "You know, SDKS is actually pretty fun, but I sure would like an easier time getting it later and have updates, I guess I can put down some money on it for that". That is 150 sales you had that, very likely, you never would have had at all because they never would have tried it. Demos these days never ever give enough of a taste of the real game, only a tutorial half the time, and that is not interesting.

I will be honest here, I am one of these people. I have little money, and so I have to be very picky about my games. I don't buy console games nearly ever because outside of rental fees, I have no way to easily try a game before I decide it sucks or not. When Fallout 3 came out, I was unsure if the game was going to live up to what I wanted it to be, so I downloaded it, and played it like crazy. I loved the game so much that I bought it, and it's right now sitting as one of the few games marked as a favorite on Steam. I have done this a lot with games.

If a company, whether gaming, music, movies, etc... gain my trust through quality product (Example, Blizzard and Valve) I will buy the Collectors Edition on day one, because I trust them and know they will give me an experience. You can't get that everywhere though.

Again, it comes down to the men in suits seeing numbers next to numbers, and assuming that because numbers over here are people that got the game free, that they would automatically be numbers on the other side should they have not gotten it free. It's not that simple, it's NEVER been that simple, and they know it, considering even with the piracy demon hanging over them, they still record thriving, record profits every year.

P.S. If copyright holders can find out some magical way to remove piracy, I will be all for it, as long as they don't destroy what makes the internet great in order to do it. As a secondary consequence, I would likely not purchase as much games as I used to, but that would be on me.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Let's also consider forms of copyright infringment that aren't straight-up piracy. For instance "Let's Play" videos on Youtube. Most game companies look the other way, but technically these can be considered copyright infringement (and there's really no way to know if they could ever be ruled "fair use" without it actually going to trial, as far as I know). I'm about to buy Mass Effect because of a Let's Play I watched. I knew of the series for years, but I'd never given it any consideration despite all the coverage, until I saw someone actually playing the game.

However, game companies can have these videos shut-down whenever they want, and some Let's Players won't/can't cover certain games because of that. There's no easy way to get legal permission to create a Let's Play, that I know of. At the same time, most game companies want these Let's Plays created, because it increases demand for their games. However, it's unlikely they want to deal with all the added work it would take to formally approve/deny all the requests they'd get if such a system were in place. So the result is that most times they turn a blind eye, until they don't and unwitting Let's Players get banned from their Youtube account or streaming service because they covered a game that has an over-protective publisher/developer.

Let's say there is a file sharing site like MegaUpload, but they somehow manage to only share Let's Play videos. These are technically copyright infringement, with a very few exceptions where there is written permission. Should that site get taken down completely the first time any publisher complains, even if dozens of others have given unoffical approval becuase they know it helps with sales and actually improves the value of their copyright? Should the service be required to research each and every upload to know what game is being played, and take down all the videos that aren't legal, even if the publisher has no objections? That's one of the problems with the current system, there's a lot of looking-the-other-way because what should be, and generally is considered to be, "fair use" is not what is legally protected as such.

Consumers are stuck in a very dfficult position with a lot of these laws. It's perfectly legal to make copies of the DVD you own to watch on a portable device, that's fair use as judges have ruled in the past. However, all software capable of doing so to an encrypted DVD is illegal becuase of the DMCA. So if you can get your DVD copied to your portal device without using any software, you're golden! All this despite the fact that the DMCA explicitly says it won't infringe on fair use. The system is broken.

There's so much uncertainty about the issue of copyright that it becomes a guessing game for the average person to try and figure out what they're allowed to do and what they aren't. Is it any wonder most people are more than a little confused?
 
More information about the MegaUpload takedown.

I admit, if the accusations are true about them e-mailing each other in support of piracy and laundering money, then I totally agree the people involved need to get put on trial. However, I still do not agree with the action of taking down the entire website and services. There were people using the service for legitimate usage, and having them suffer over this is not something that should be happening. It needs to be handed off to those that were not found to be part of this "upper ring" of corruption, like many other companies would.

Though, I admit, the cynic in my find the allegations to be almost to silly to be real. "The megaupload conspiracy", "cars with plates that say STONED and GUILTY", "the megaupload imperium", it sounds like a cartoon.
 
Megauploads was charging people to download information (although you could get it free, they had fees for getting it fast). They weren't charging people to upload stuff, or charging people for space.

Even though some of their content was legal in every way, people wouldn't pay as much as they were asking for material that wasn't hard or expensive to get via normal channels - generally copyright material. They were not only profiting off of copyright material, but they knew it and were tuning their system to make it easier for users to upload copyrighted material - and even "pay" users who's uploads became popular in various ways (free subscriptions, etc).

They weren't making $110 million off open source and creative commons material.
 
I'm getting the feeling people think I support SOPA/PIPA. That's not it at all. I agree it goes way, way too far (and said so on my blog site ;) ). I'm just ok with minor changes that don't destroy the internet as we know it.

I find the media companies to be money grubbing assholes, too, people.
 
And while we're at it:

According to the report, the majority of users do not even understand that they are illegally using software - 60 percent think that purchasing a single license for a program and installing it on multiple computers is legal at home and 47 percent think it is legal at work.


So whenever they cite piracy for software they include that... no wonder the % are so high...

I'd like to see them actually go after people that install software at home on more then one computer en mass and the media to cover that... lets see what the average consumer says about copyright laws then.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Why should it need a USB dongle? The material is already out there being pirated. Ripping from physical media is easy and the media is sold in stores. Steaming media is a lot easier to control than either of those. If you have to log-in and you don't have a local file to keep, then there's really no need for anything else. Netflix streams without a dongle, Amazon streams movies without a dongle, etc. etc.
I was talking about a vague idea for buying things quickly and conveniently online, like streaming an episode of South Park. The USB dongle is for MY security. A hardware key for my microtransaction wallet or whatever. Kind of like blizzard's battle.net authenticator.
 
I just hope the government can finally get their hands on those evil VCR makers who allow any user to freely violate copyright. VCR's: Evilest of Evil.
 
This stuff keeps getting more and more crazy.

Redditors are putting out a call to have a "Black March", in which everyone that takes part boycotts the purchase of movies, music, games, etc... the entire month of March, hoping to take a enough of a dip out of the entertainment industry that they realize they need to back off. Am curious how successful it will turn out.
 
That's like the past "don't buy gas on [date]" campaigns in years past. Very few people will actually reduce their purchases - they will simply shift them around to avoid that date, or in this case month.

For this to work, people will have to commit to not buying anything during that month, and then continue to not buy the things they would have otherwise bought. You have to say, "Movie x came out that month, therefore I will never view it." It's just not going to happen.

Besides, due to the supply chain, they'd have to get millions of people to participate for the distributors to notice, nevermind the studios and publishers, and the people least affected will be the lobbying organizations and industry groups pushing for these stupid laws. They'll see a dip that month, made up by an increase the following month that nearly makes up for the dip.
 
It's only going to hurt the retailers who sell those products, not the companies in charge of them.

Technically I'll be participating only because I can't afford to buy anything at the moment.
 
It's only going to hurt the retailers who sell those products, not the companies in charge of them.

Technically I'll be participating only because I can't afford to buy anything at the moment.
You seem to be assuming that the "retailers" are some little mom-and-pop operations on Main St., USA. Maybe once upon a time long, long ago and far, far away, but no longer. The Wal-Marts, Targets, Amazons, and FYEs run that side of the street now. They're part of the same conspiracy as the media companies. In some cases they're the ones giving the media companies their marching orders.

They deserve the same kick in the ass as Universal and Sony.
 
You seem to be assuming that the "retailers" are some little mom-and-pop operations on Main St., USA. Maybe once upon a time long, long ago and far, far away, but no longer. The Wal-Marts, Targets, Amazons, and FYEs run that side of the street now. They're part of the same conspiracy as the media companies. In some cases they're the ones giving the media companies their marching orders.

They deserve the same kick in the ass as Universal and Sony.
Little stores still exist in cities and they depend on each dollar like most small businesses.

Aside from that, I don't see enough people doing this to make much of a dent, and even if they did, the companies would just blame it on piracy.
 
Little stores still exist in cities and they depend on each dollar like most small businesses.

Aside from that, I don't see enough people doing this to make much of a dent, and even if they did, the companies would just blame it on piracy.
Between Morgantown and Clarksburg I couldn't tell you where you could buy a new movie or CD from a store that wasn't part of a chain. Morgantown definitely not. The last independent record store of consequence here closed up shop over a decade ago.

I can see the "why bother?" crowd has made it's voice heard. That's what the media companies are depending on.
 
Really, I think Steam, Vudu, Hulu, and such make a really strong case for the right way to combat piracy. The biggest problem with most anti-piracy measures are that they make the paying customers suffer more than the pirates do. That is just a horrible business model. If you offer a consumer friendly experience, people as a whole will go towards legal means of getting their entertainment.

Another good example are ROMs. I used to pirate tons of roms of classic games simply because there was no feasable way to get those games legally. Now that we have the PSN, WiiWare, etc... I have absolutely no problem paying for those games.
 
Another good example are ROMs. I used to pirate tons of roms of classic games simply because there was no feasable way to get those games legally. Now that we have the PSN, WiiWare, etc... I have absolutely no problem paying for those games.
... as long as they are reasonably priced, which is something some companies still don't get.
 
... as long as they are reasonably priced, which is something some companies still don't get.
What get's me is that with movies, they could charge half what they're charging for a physical copy of a DVD/Blu-Ray and still make more of a profit because they don't even need the physcial medium. Basically the RIAA companies are so ignorant as to the nature of electronic medium, it's not even funny. Rather than fight the inevitable, they should be looking at ways to use it to their advantage.
 
It's still better than in japan. Games and movies often cost double what they would here, which is one of the reasons they wait so long to bring them over here: people often buy overseas copies of games and movies, because it's still cheaper to buy them from the US or China than it is to buy them in Japan, even accounting for tariffs and shipping.

But then again, this is the country that made it illegal to rent games because people would rent them instead of buying them. You can blame the entire JRPG formula on this fact... they had to make them too long to beat in a single rental period, so they made you grind XP.
 
I would add to that, don't pirate products either. It still shows interest in the game, which defeats the purpose of not buying them as some sort of protest, and in the end just encourages further anti-piracy measures.
 
People need to stop doing that whether they like something or not. I'm sick of people downloading stuff they have no interest in just to have it, sending the message that garbage is more popular than it is.

It's still better than in japan. Games and movies often cost double what they would here, which is one of the reasons they wait so long to bring them over here: people often buy overseas copies of games and movies, because it's still cheaper to buy them from the US or China than it is to buy them in Japan, even accounting for tariffs and shipping.
It irks me that soundtracks for some really great movies and games from Japan cost $50-$60. It feels kind of unfair. But I still don't pirate them, no matter how much I wish I had those mp3s, because I'm not a thief. People need to learn that they don't have to have these things. It's just entertainment.
 
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