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Ok, you are trying really hard to ignore the post I made about lower suicide rates where abortion is illegal, aren't you? Ok, so be it...Amy said:
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JONJONAUG
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3402502.html
Uh...all that article tells me is that "legalized abortion means less children".
As for your questions Amy (and I know you've probably foe'd me because you think I'm a misogynist twat for thinking that abortion is morally wrong and that the right to life is more important than a woman having what she perceives as irregular body functions for about ten or so months), but on the off-chance that you haven't), I would adopt an unwanted child. I'm adopted myself through the public foster care system, and I can tell you right now that in my experience the system works. I have two other biological siblings. My younger sister was adopted by my parents (...god that sentence is hard to put into proper context, "my sister is also my biological sister" reads horribly...), and an older brother who lives with a family in Massachusetts. If anything, all that article does is convince me that there are a lot more children who get aborted instead of being put into a system that actually DOES work (in the United States anyway, I can't account for Brazil or other countries, but the article you posted solely applies to the United States).
I can't say I've ever experienced "suffering" under the system, since it worked perfectly for me. However, I really would prefer being alive than being killed before I have the chance to be born. I know plenty of adopted children personally (my cousin is an unwanted female child from China), and while some are happier than others, all of them are content to enough of an extent that I would bet money that they would prefer being alive than never being born.
Uh...all that article tells me is that "legalized abortion means less children".
As for your questions Amy (and I know you've probably foe'd me because you think I'm a misogynist twat for thinking that abortion is morally wrong and that the right to life is more important than a woman having what she perceives as irregular body functions for about ten or so months), but on the off-chance that you haven't), I would adopt an unwanted child. I'm adopted myself through the public foster care system, and I can tell you right now that in my experience the system works. I have two other biological siblings. My younger sister was adopted by my parents (...god that sentence is hard to put into proper context, "my sister is also my biological sister" reads horribly...), and an older brother who lives with a family in Massachusetts. If anything, all that article does is convince me that there are a lot more children who get aborted instead of being put into a system that actually DOES work (in the United States anyway, I can't account for Brazil or other countries, but the article you posted solely applies to the United States).
I can't say I've ever experienced "suffering" under the system, since it worked perfectly for me. However, I really would prefer being alive than being killed before I have the chance to be born. I know plenty of adopted children personally (my cousin is an unwanted female child from China), and while some are happier than others, all of them are content to enough of an extent that I would bet money that they would prefer being alive than never being born.
...holy FUCK.JONJONAUG said:
ElJuski
Staff member
And this is why the debate goes on and on and on. Instead of trying to reach consensus people have too much fun slinging shit and half-truths at each other. You gotta stop being rabidly angry and ignorant before you can start talking rationale and making a legal consensus.ZenMonkey said:
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What? Fetus growth is something that comes in the technical specification sheet of females. I know it's not exactly a PC way of putting it, but there's not many other ways to say that women housing a fetus while it grows isn't unnatural. What I'm saying is right to life>emotional impact.ZenMonkey said:
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Hm... how many "generalizations" (sic) have I provided besides "most people want to live"? (An statement on which I'm quite surprised to be confronted)Amy said:
Oh, right! That crushing argument! "If you don't adopt, you have no saying on abortion!". Well Amy, yes, I never adopted any child, I don't think of myself of father material, the best I do on this issue is voluntary work with abandoned children raised by a government foster lair (and money I donate for a private lair on H.I.V. infected children... how "unwanted" do you think THOSE are?). I don't think those actions give me ANY particular notoriety to argue against or for abortion (but I'm sure on that we agree). But hey, as I said, if by any reason you think any of my characteristics (I must admit my money was on the "catholic guy") disqualify my position despite its arguments, by all means, just skip my post. But it is interesting that you keep pressing on that issue... Remember when I said I know women who agree with me? Well, would it surprise you that one of those really adopted a child? (you shouldn't... many women who adopt are against abortion) What if that post came from her?Amy said:
So, to say it AGAIN, if you want to question any of my arguments, I'll gladly clarify you on them, or (who knows?) maybe even be convinced by you. If you want to dismiss them because of what I am... I'll have nothing to say on it (just perhaps the fact that YOU asked my opinion on that in the first place...).
Yay for her, zero, but boo for you for not having the balls to put your life into service for your beliefs. You're gee I'm not father materiel is a fucking empty cop out when you insist that women who aren't mother material be forced to give birth, and that the resulting child just face the odds of a crapshoot which you won't even inconvenience yourself with to improve the odds.
Props to your friend for doing what you cant though, Her, I respect, even though I disagree.
You on the other hand, sit on your high unaffected horse and spout how women must sacrifice for the good of the child while you don't do shit about it
Props to your friend for doing what you cant though, Her, I respect, even though I disagree.
You on the other hand, sit on your high unaffected horse and spout how women must sacrifice for the good of the child while you don't do shit about it
I still say it. Things were calming down until ya came in here and said this:Amy said:
Etc. I'm not trying to attack you, just pointing out that there are very few here who made an effort to be neutral and understanding of the opposing position.Amy said:
And yes, JONJONAUG, what you said was misogynistic. In fact, it churned my stomach a little bit.
As I said earlier, we can have a civil, understanding conversation about an issue that is charged, but for the most part we choose not to. That's ok too. Carry on. I'll just
for now.krisken, the "issue" is older than both you and I and has been around a long time. People can understand both sides of it without being neutral. Anyone who doesn't understand the issues at stake can get off their ass and go read up about it in their local library
Well fuck them if they are too lazy. I'm done with respecting the side that wants to forcibly limit what I can and cannot do with my body while they face no consequences for such imposition. I am absolutely fine with pro lifers making their points if they share the burden of the consequences, which men like zero do not.
It seems your idea of civility is that no one really get passionate about disagreements. Sorry but I'm not going to oblige you.
Well fuck them if they are too lazy. I'm done with respecting the side that wants to forcibly limit what I can and cannot do with my body while they face no consequences for such imposition. I am absolutely fine with pro lifers making their points if they share the burden of the consequences, which men like zero do not.
It seems your idea of civility is that no one really get passionate about disagreements. Sorry but I'm not going to oblige you.
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Not sure on who this is directed, but as I'm "not without error", I'll answer itAmy said:
It is nothing personal Amy, I just disagree with the "unwanted children are so miserable they would be better off dead" argument. Now, I admit it, I DID cross the line with you with my "are you for real?" when you asked proof for the "vast majority people want to keep living" argument, I mistook you from some Troll. But I have recognized my error, and apologized for it (apologies that I reinstate here)
Be sure I don't think any ill of you for you being pro-abortion.
Ah! But wait a second... I firmly defend I should be FORCED to take care of any woman I impregnate, and surely, to take care of any child I conceive... yes, under threat of severe penalty (certainly more severe than what should be applied to a woman who have an abortion). Again, yes, it is impossible for me to carry an unborn child.Amy said:
Nice! She and her husband are really wonderful people, the kid could not ask for better... But notice... Her arguments aren't different from mine...Amy said:
Perhaps I don't do shit, perhaps I do... but again... If you have any issue with my arguments, I'm very much willing to discuss them with you...Amy said:
...If you have issues with ME, well then I'm sorry... can't really help on that.
Be sure you know the difference between "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice."zero said:
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You surely got me on that one ZenMonkey... yes, of course, nobody sane is "pro-abortion".ZenMonkey said:
So, to rephrase it:
Amy, I don't think any ill of you for you being against criminalization of induced abortion. (yes, it takes more words to say it).
And saying what you really mean is worth it, so thanks for that.zero said:
If you believe abortion is wrong, since you demand that woman carry it instead of aborting it then the burden of raising the child should be yours. Equivalent exchange, the woman's life is affected, and since you support pro life, your life should be affected too, regardless of whether or not you impregnated the woman. Sound unfair? No more I would say, than the unfairness of being relegated to carry and birth a child you did not want.zero said:
Now you're making assumptions about what I think or what my ideas are. If you want to argue, that's cool. I will just sit on the sidelines and watch. If someone wants to focus on the common ground and them work our way to the differences, then I'll be in. Hell, it might surprise you that I'm a staunch supporter of abortion, contraceptives, and womens rights. My wife and I go to planned parenthood for the NuvaRing.Amy said:
I'm passionate about all the things I believe, think, or feel. I'm still going to be careful about the tone I use and do my best to understand the other position, despite those who continue to be obstinate and refuse to meet me halfway or even take part in a serious discussion. I just have no interest in participating in what will devolve into name calling and cause others to just dig their heels in.
Fuck you krisken, get off the fucking internet and carry your cross where someone gives a fuck that you're soooo noble. Whole Foods, maybe. Douche.
Seriously though, if you can't argue your point anywhere except in safe sterile British tea rooms over some crumpets and Earl Grey, then stop whining that no one respects your points
Seriously though, if you can't argue your point anywhere except in safe sterile British tea rooms over some crumpets and Earl Grey, then stop whining that no one respects your points
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Amen.
But nice to see how the machists still blabber about the kid.Hey, let the raped mother live with the trauma, and raise a kid on her own, so some guys dont feel bad that a fetus died.
Just like they dont give a shit about single mothers abandoned by the father of the child, or raped women, they dont give a shit about the kids.
They just want to feel good that their little church-taught morals are satisfied.
I've assumed responsibility and care for my gf's kid (with a former fiance, not mine), and am taking care of three half-brothers from my mother's failed marriages. Amy's adopting.
What have the religious chauvinists done so far, but shown they care more about a fetus than the rest of a life of a woman, who for them are just glorified uterus life supports?
:eyeroll:zero said:
Heh, and I know many who'd do it,and have attempted to do so.zero said:
But nice to see how the machists still blabber about the kid.Hey, let the raped mother live with the trauma, and raise a kid on her own, so some guys dont feel bad that a fetus died.
I can bet not a single dipshit here wanting to control a woman's body will ever a dopt a kid.Amy said:
Just like they dont give a shit about single mothers abandoned by the father of the child, or raped women, they dont give a shit about the kids.
They just want to feel good that their little church-taught morals are satisfied.
I've assumed responsibility and care for my gf's kid (with a former fiance, not mine), and am taking care of three half-brothers from my mother's failed marriages. Amy's adopting.
What have the religious chauvinists done so far, but shown they care more about a fetus than the rest of a life of a woman, who for them are just glorified uterus life supports?
Ok, the douche thing made me chuckle.Amy said:Fuck you krisken, get off the fucking internet and carry your cross where someone gives a fuck that you're soooo noble. Whole Foods, maybe. Douche.
Seriously though, if you can't argue your point anywhere except in safe sterile British tea rooms over some crumpets and Earl Grey, then stop whining that no one respects your points
Have fun
thhp:
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JCM
This.ZenMonkey said:
Funnily, why do people to call themselves "pro-lifers" when they prefer to save a fetus and destroy the life of abandoned single mothers and raped women?
Well, one of them recently wanted to discuss the nomenclature issue with me in PMs, and my position on the matter (which was entirely my own perspective, stated as such, and not based on generalizations or even statistics) was decried as "bald-faced lies," so I don't think I'll bother with that discussion anymore.JCM said:
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But of course, if the mother of my child don't want to have it, but bear it for nine months, I'll assume the child alone, no questions on that...Amy said:
Geez Amy, to read you here, it almost seems like I'm some kind of "pro-lifer" religious zealot... As I said it, I had friends who had abortions... I never condemned them, and know what? I never EVEN asked them to not do it! I won't say that I understand perfectly the woman condition (now THAT would put fire on this thread), but I can grasp how precious one's will over his own body is.Amy said:
Heck, wanna get me "by the balls"? Just ask me "Oh yeah? And what if both parents agree with the abortion?" but I somehow feel you don't think the father has any saying on this issue...
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*ouch*
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It is funny? Well, don't think so, anyway, nor do I label myself "pro-lifer", nor I prefer to save a fetus life over... Oh, whatever, you aren't referencing me, of course... You are talking about that same people who are "indifferent to the Israeli attack over Palestinian kids"JCM said:
But you have of course seen the post where I admit it was a poor choice of terms, haven't you?
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Well, you have read me saying that I am NOT against rape abortions, right? Are you trolling me? Sorry, I'm really slow to notice those things (and have already unjustly accused Amy of doing so).JCM said:
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Is it safe to post in here again or are people still being fucking retards?
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Nope, I suggest you go watch a tv show or something Sera.
-a)Castrate rapists/make laws sterners to STOP repeat rapists and give financial aid to raise the unwanted rape child.
-b)Put stern laws that considers a husband a rapist should he have sex with a woman when she doesnt want to, and provide shelters for women who are kicked off from home for refusing sex, especially among the lower class, because many lower-class women have no way to get away from these husbands, and shouldnt be relegated to becoming a baby-making factory to please morals of others.
-c)Put a biological father in jail should he run off, have him work a sweatshop to pay alimony, should he be unable to pay for it, because damn there are shitloads of women who are abandoned by the father of the child.
-d)Prohibit anything that usually kills the fetus, like sex the few months after, heavy exercise.
And also adopt an unwanted child if fetuses are the same as people. I dont have a single kid of my own and Im taking care of 4 kids. Amy's adopting. Or let women choose.
You missed the rest of my problems with guys who are against abortion-zero said:
-a)Castrate rapists/make laws sterners to STOP repeat rapists and give financial aid to raise the unwanted rape child.
-b)Put stern laws that considers a husband a rapist should he have sex with a woman when she doesnt want to, and provide shelters for women who are kicked off from home for refusing sex, especially among the lower class, because many lower-class women have no way to get away from these husbands, and shouldnt be relegated to becoming a baby-making factory to please morals of others.
-c)Put a biological father in jail should he run off, have him work a sweatshop to pay alimony, should he be unable to pay for it, because damn there are shitloads of women who are abandoned by the father of the child.
-d)Prohibit anything that usually kills the fetus, like sex the few months after, heavy exercise.
And also adopt an unwanted child if fetuses are the same as people. I dont have a single kid of my own and Im taking care of 4 kids. Amy's adopting. Or let women choose.
While you all discuss, I'll be over at the chips section. Brasilian chips taste like shit, man I miss the good american stuff.ElJuski said:Oh Whole Foods is fucking slammin'! We have all our best discussions by the produce section. Next week it's socioeconomic statuses in the classroom!Krisken said:
no it sounds like you are trying to spoon a bunch of weak ass cop outs that waver back and forth so you'll feel better about your own crappy stance on the issues, hoping you'll never really have to deal with any of the actual issues or consequences. It is after all, a lot easier to condemn someone else's choice or right to choice when the outcome never affects you personally. Pretending that's not what your doing is laughable.zero said:
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Trust me on this one, I already did...Amy said:
It surely is. It is not what I am doingAmy said:
Ah, well, have fun at it then... certainly it will be a lot funnier than to search for any instance where I condemn women who had abortions...Amy said:
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