Sexism vs bullying: FIGHT!

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So a female tech evangelist is at a technical conference, and overhears two men behind her making what she assumed to be lewd jokes, in the main conference hall, during the presentation.

She turns around, snaps a picture, and posts both the picture and commentary about how offended she was by them, then proceeds to tweet conference organizers who pull the men out of the conference. She then posts a long blog post about how she stood up for women everywhere by standing up to these sexist pigs

End act one.

Act two:

One of the men involved explains his perspective on reddit, indicating that the first comments were not of a sexual nature, and the second joke wasn't started by him, nor did he participate, however he wanted to thank this female evangelist for publicly calling him out for sexual discrimination which resulted in him being fired that morning.

The whole thing erupts as people call the woman a bully, and the company she works for gets ddos'd to the point where they can no longer serve their customers for many, many hours. It appears this is still ongoing.

Shortly after the female tech evangelist is fired and the company she worked for posts this publicly on their Facebook page, assuming that it might quell the raging masses.

Act three:

Who knows?

Right now I can't help but think that it would have been better if she simply turned around, asked the men to stop because it was making her uncomfortable, and moved on. However the conference had a record number of women that year 20% - which is huge in the tech world - and openly proclaimed their diversity and zero tolerance for any kind of abuse, so she was certainly within her rights to request the conference organizers become involved. But the public shaming on twitter (she has a very large following) seems a bit above and beyond what is reasonable action to take against someone for a verbal offense.

The company that fired one of the offenders is at fault, in my opinion, for taking things to the next level, but that's not the interesting point I'm thinking about.

The loss of her job, and the very public hanging she's receiving, sends a very strong message to women in the tech community that if they speak out about offenses and discrimination, they may find themselves without a job.

Even if her public shaming of these men was over the top, and even if they didn't actually say anything that should have been offensive if she heard the whole conversation and had the proper context, the fact that she tried to discuss it publicly, then was publicly beaten in return and lost her job is rather distressing.

I honestly feel everyone's being harmed in this situation. Both companies are losing great people. Both people, the conference, and one company are airing dirty laundry that probably should have been kept behind closed doors, unless one party refuses to deal, then maybe public shaming would be reasonable to get them to understand the problem.

But it's obvious that all parties involved are generally reasonable people, and it seems that if they had discussed things privately first everything would have been resolved without the resulting mess.

Of course, the next generation puts everything on twitter and Facebook. At some point there is no private space, at least no in the minds of the upcoming generation, everything is up for public consideration.

Either way, it's quite an interesting mess if you want to dive in. Google for "Pycon Adria Richards" if you are curious. Everyone seems to have an opinion.

May cooler heads prevail.
 

Dave

Staff member
Some people take offense to almost anything. The problem isn't when these people are offended, but when others listen to these easily offended people. Like the guy's boss. Or the con taking her word for it and kicking them out. Or HER bosses for firing her.

Everyone in this is wrong, with the exception of the guys who got kicked out. Dongle is a funny word. Deal with it.
 
Something that should have been handled between the adults involved spills out into a public spectacle that got two people fired...
 
Cooler heads were nullified when instead of the shot across the bow, she went for the full broadside. Even more so when the other party responded in kind.

"Off with his/her head!" is supposed to be the last resort, not the opening salvo.
 
Ah. That makes way more sense. Although I'm not sure where else an unemployed guy is going to give his side of the argument.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Lady should have known that when you go right for the jugular, they will too. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If she'd been an adult about it she still could have embarrased her would-be mockers in public, but she had to make an online federal case about it with photos and a paper trail. You only do that shit when you are 100% certain you are right and entirely blameless.
 
It's too perfect that someone accused of misogyny is defending himself on Reddit, is all my lmfao meant. I literally stopped reading there to make that post, I'll read it all later, a lot of people are talking about this on my twitter feed too
 

Dave

Staff member
Why does having it on Reddit make it an untenable position? You can have posts even on MensRights that have merit.
 
Why does having it on Reddit make it an untenable position? You can have posts even on MensRights that have merit.
I don't think he was completely dismissing the guy just saying that Reddit isn't really a place well known for it's respect towards women.

Oddly enough despite all of the female Redditors I know.
 

Dave

Staff member
I don't think he was completely dismissing the guy just saying that Reddit isn't really a place well known for it's respect towards women.

Oddly enough despite all of the female Redditors I know.
I agree, but Charlie is particularly dismissive of anything in MensRights. I think Charlie is an SRS guy, personally. I'd check, but I've been banned from there.
 
I agree, but Charlie is particularly dismissive of anything in MensRights. I think Charlie is an SRS guy, personally. I'd check, but I've been banned from there.
lol. I refuse to go to reddit for anything, ever, in any way. Even if it has a subreddit making fun of how much of a shitheap it is. We've had that discussion before. I read copy-pasted posts on occasion and screenshots etc etc, but I'm never clicking there.

also I just read this summary: http://www.dailydot.com/society/pycon-dongle-joke-misogyny-sexism-adria-richards/
 

Necronic

Staff member
Large companies have HR departments dedicated to this kind of shit exactly to avoid situations like this. If I were to make a sexist joke at work and someone found it offensive, there are built in procedures that are meant to be followed. They talk to HR, HR talks to me, maybe I get fired, some sort of resolution is found for all people. Probably not the most righteous resolution, but one that is guided by millions up millions of dollars in lawsuits. If the offended person were to bypass this system and send a company wide e-mail with my name and face along with allegations of sexual harrasment....well they would likely get shit-canned.

But this situation is different for 2 reasons.

1) The tech industry is about as knuckly dragging as wall-street when it comes to misogyny. They are decades behind most other places, which is, frankly, inexcusable. (At least in wall-street you have the excuse that it is an inherently morally compromised workplace to begin with that specifically attracts sociopaths. What's the tech excuse? We never grew up?). Because of this it's likely that there isn't always a good existing HR infrastructure to deal with these things, or if there is it's compromised by a good-old-boy network.

and

2) They were at a conference. There isn't a specific HR department that exists between companies at a place like that. Also, at a place like that you are there as a proxy for your company. You are expected, frankly, to be on best behavior (yes even after you cash in your drink tickets.)

But even with that said....I don't excuse her behavior. She specifically chose to do this in a public forum, which was inappropriate. There were many many MANY better venues, OBVIOUSLY better venues to do so. She could have privately e-mailed the conference organizers. She could have e-mailed the managers of these guys. I don't think it was her responsibility to directly tell the guys it bothered her, that creates a chilling factor, but it was wildly innapropriate to name and shame. Especially doing it without letting the managers of these guys even have a shot at dealing with the problem. I mean...shit, they could have had a woman for a manager, who knows?

She chose vigilante justice. And....I get that the tech industry has some serious issues with sexism. But you don't fix that by doing shit like this. She publicly shamed these guys. And by proxy she publicly shamed their companies. And she did that as a proxy of HER company. This...this was a bad choice.

In the real world, the world that knows how to handle sexism, these guys would probably have gotten a serious sit down with HR, and kept their jobs, but would probably never make this mistake again. Instead, a bunch of people are out of a job and more asshats are probably forming negative opinions about women in the tech industry that are probably pushing gender relations in the tech industry backwards, not forwards.

The main point is that there are no winners here.
 

Necronic

Staff member
She did not deserve what happened to her. The guys didn't deserve what happened to them. Basically no justice was served here because "professionals" in the IT industry can't seem to wrap their heads around the smallest level of professionalism.

Grow the fuck up IT industry.
 
Also I don't think many people here are realizing how much vile shit was slung her way by ~the internet~. Nothing she did deserved all that.
Neither side deserves that, but the internet allows a public voice to everyone, and many people take that to mean they deserve a say as to what happens.
 

Dave

Staff member
GB was being sarcastic... and... I hope you are too?
I know he was. I was not. For some things like Twitter, Facebook, and other comment sections, I'm a firm believer in the fact that civility would be much greater were it not for anonymous dickwaddery.
 

Zappit

Staff member
Just more people unable to handle things face-to-face, desiring the attention of countless Internet users.
 
Neither side deserves that, but the internet allows a public voice to everyone, and many people take that to mean they deserve a say as to what happens.
On the contrary. Both sides intended to stir up an internet shitstorm. If they didn't know by now that this is what happens when you do that, too bad for them.
 
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