[TV] The Walking Dead

Also, the weak point of any zombie story is the defeat of the regular army, considering that the ragtag band of survivors is nearly always using the same, but rougher tactics that the regular army would. I really thought WWZ had the stupidest attempt at an explanation for this.
Considering the kinds of military snafus the previous administration made in their war against what boiled down to being lightly trained people armed with Soviet-era hand-me-downs, it seems highly likely that the idea of our military being slow to change tactics makes perfect sense. We went through how many generals during that? 3? 4? Also, training is hard to over come... it's one of the big issues with soldiers attempting to return to civilian life. Civilians have no such issues and thus it makes more sense for them to switch to the most effective tactic or to experiment with new ones.

Besides, in most zombie movies, those "rag tag survivors" generally lose more than half their numbers over the course of the film. They aren't doing much better than the army.
 
I feel like the military might lose out for two main reasons. The first would be the overcoming training, like Ash said, especially in the crucial first battles. Lots of people will go down trying to use body shots and other normal methods of killing an already living human.

The next major obstacle would probably be desertion. If you're fighting a seemingly unstoppable enemy, while you don't know where your family is or anything etc. I wouldn't blame anyone for leaving the politicians in DC that they were assigned to protect behind while they make sure their family is ok.
 
Apparently Darabont sacked the whole writing staff. Hmm.
Can't say I blame him. The script diverges from the comic in odd places and goes in strange directions (like the CDC and Gangers) and we have characters who still haven't received much characterization (the entire Latino family seems like they were added just to leave. Did they even have names?). The new writing team needs to make their scripts a bit tighter and with more focus.

Also, I'm calling it now: Black woman dies at the CDC. She doesn't have a name, she's not in the comic, and she's not part of any of the groups. She doesn't have a chance.

Besides, Michonne is making an appearance early in Season 2.
 

fade

Staff member
No I still disagree on the army. At the general army level, maybe tactics would be slow to change. But the army would have the same in-unit communication, and much better cross-unit communication, not to mention training and tactics for communication. At the Lt. or Cpt. level, the word to head-shot would get out really fast. Plus, I thought it the WWZ "problems" the army had broke the rules, because body center-mass shots and massive trauma certainly serve to at least drop or slow down zombies when it's the hero shooting. Not to mention hand-to-hand combat skills, the fact that a bite isn't an immediate defeat of a soldier, etc. And also, the biggest problem of all is that "shoot it dead" is what the survivors do, and that's what the army is trained to do. There aren't really too many new skills needed, except perhaps to shift from center-mass to head. They don't need the stealth aspect that the survivors do (or the unfortunate soldiers in the recent wars the US has engaged in). In fact, it'd probably be better TO attract the zombies. The have no survival instincts.

I really find it a weak link. Not that it really matters to the story. I just find it noticeable.

The only regular army defeat I bought was 28 days later because of the rapidity and ease of infection.
 
Generally speaking, the biggest issues when considering the Army Vs Zombie scenario are the following.

- First off, the military is NEVER going to believe they are facing Zombies at first. They will believe it to be a simple mass rabies incident or something. This means they are going to be going in with tactics that only work on HUMANS. They are almost guaranteed to lose a not insignificant number of people this way.

- Zombies travel in groups, or are almost always depicted as doing such once you've got their attention. This is both good and bad: It bunches up your targets, meaning it's easier to see them, but it also means that if your not quick, you will get overrun unless you retreat... and you can only retreat so far before you have to make a stand at your supply base. Any outbreak needs to be ended before your supply base is overrun or you've essentially lost that battle.

- It's not just head shots, it's brain/brainstem shots. That halves the area you can hit and you need to do it at a distance if you want to not get overrun. Most servicemen are not highly trained marksmen able to hit targets the size of a coconut while it bobs up and down, 200-300feet away. Most of them are merely competent. This means they need to get VERY close to be effective.

- Bullets tend to be deflected by curved surfaces, like heads. This means you need to be dead on if you want to kill something via headshot or you may risk the bullet deflecting enough to keep most of the brain intact, even if the shot hits. As pointed out in WWZ, this can lead to panic and misinformation about what is effective, which KILLS morale.

- Military weapons use full metal jacket ammo for it's penetrating power, ease of manufacture, and because of Geneva Conventions on what is and isn't allowed to be used against humans by military forces. You don't want penetration against Zombies, you want stopping power, which usually means frangible rounds or hollow points, which are used almost exclusively by civilians and civilian agencies BECAUSE they drop a man much faster (and because they won't travel through the wall and hit the innocent neighbors). This is why "heroes" in Zombie movies do more damage with guns off of cops or found in stashes. Unfortunately, the military doesn't have vast supplies of alternative ammo and no time to make them.

- Lastly, you have to deal with Morale. Generally speaking, military forces have higher morale than non-military ones, but this doesn't take into account the fact that your facing the walking dead, in your home country, maybe even your home town. Your going to have a serious desertion problem, which means less men and likely less equipment, as they will likely taking their kits and vehicles to save their own friends and families.

So really, there are a lot of reasons why the Military is going to lose the first few engagements at least. They WILL eventually get a clue though, which is why any good Zombie Movie ends with the Army showing up to save the day! :)
 
Apparently Darabont sacked the whole writing staff. Hmm.
Can't say I blame him. The script diverges from the comic in odd places and goes in strange directions (like the CDC and Gangers) and we have characters who still haven't received much characterization (the entire Latino family seems like they were added just to leave. Did they even have names?). The new writing team needs to make their scripts a bit tighter and with more focus.

Also, I'm calling it now: Black woman dies at the CDC. She doesn't have a name, she's not in the comic, and she's not part of any of the groups. She doesn't have a chance.

Besides, Michonne is making an appearance early in Season 2.
[/QUOTE]

I think it has more to do with Darabont's contentious personality than it does the direction of the story considering he wrote 2 episodes and re-wrote/edited the other 4.
 
J

Joe Johnson

No I still disagree on the army. At the general army level, maybe tactics would be slow to change. But the army would have the same in-unit communication, and much better cross-unit communication, not to mention training and tactics for communication. At the Lt. or Cpt. level, the word to head-shot would get out really fast. Plus, I thought it the WWZ "problems" the army had broke the rules, because body center-mass shots and massive trauma certainly serve to at least drop or slow down zombies when it's the hero shooting. Not to mention hand-to-hand combat skills, the fact that a bite isn't an immediate defeat of a soldier, etc. And also, the biggest problem of all is that "shoot it dead" is what the survivors do, and that's what the army is trained to do. There aren't really too many new skills needed, except perhaps to shift from center-mass to head. They don't need the stealth aspect that the survivors do (or the unfortunate soldiers in the recent wars the US has engaged in). In fact, it'd probably be better TO attract the zombies. The have no survival instincts.

I really find it a weak link. Not that it really matters to the story. I just find it noticeable.

The only regular army defeat I bought was 28 days later because of the rapidity and ease of infection.
I couldn't agree more. In fact, I don't ever think a zombie infection could infect the whole world as it's always portrayed in the movies. It was plausible in the 28 days later scenario, since you had a nearly instant infection rate, and fast zombies. But, slow zombies where the infected don't change until the next day, etc, doesn't really make sense.

That doesn't alter the fact that zombie movies are fucking awesome.
 

fade

Staff member
Yep yep. I love zombie movies.

The original Night of the Living Dead was fairly plausible. It ended with organized posses killing off the zombies. Of course, that was revamped for Dawn, but whatever.
 
Ehhh, I don't know. If you add in the idea that anyone dead comes back to life, THEN you've got a potential problem. Funerals, morgues, etc. There'd be a lot of dead popping up pretty frequently. Then, you've got people who drowned crawling out of different water ways. And of course, heavily populated areas, panicked people, etc. I think a zombie outbreak would be pretty likely. Maybe not to the point of ending the world, but certainly thinning out our numbers considerably. Like WWZ, we'd likely eventually figure out a way to properly fight back.

Also, Fade, keep in mind that the original Night was in a small, rural area. Cities are basically screwed due to crowded areas and who knows where there are dead people there. Hospitals would be the first place that'd be the most dangerous.

But yeah, it's all fun theory to talk about. Zombie movies are awesome, no matter what. :D
 
K

Kiff

Ehhh, I don't know. If you add in the idea that anyone dead comes back to life, THEN you've got a potential problem. Funerals, morgues, etc. There'd be a lot of dead popping up pretty frequently. Then, you've got people who drowned crawling out of different water ways. And of course, heavily populated areas, panicked people, etc. I think a zombie outbreak would be pretty likely. Maybe not to the point of ending the world, but certainly thinning out our numbers considerably. Like WWZ, we'd likely eventually figure out a way to properly fight back.

Also, Fade, keep in mind that the original Night was in a small, rural area. Cities are basically screwed due to crowded areas and who knows where there are dead people there. Hospitals would be the first place that'd be the most dangerous.

But yeah, it's all fun theory to talk about. Zombie movies are awesome, no matter what. :D
Well if we really want to get into semantics, the whole traditional view on how zombies work is biologically impossible. 100% completely impossible in this universe. The bottom line being that zombies completely take the second law of thermodynamics, bend it over, and have their way with it.

28 days Later and Zombieland are actually the most "scientifically" accurate versions of anything close to what a "zombie" could be. I always like to think that if there was some way to increase the tropism of rabies in human's to become as virulent and fast acting as ebola is (without the high mortality rate), I could be sitting on a hot ticket to hold the world hostage.
 
J

Joe Johnson

Ehhh, I don't know. If you add in the idea that anyone dead comes back to life, THEN you've got a potential problem. Funerals, morgues, etc. There'd be a lot of dead popping up pretty frequently. Then, you've got people who drowned crawling out of different water ways. And of course, heavily populated areas, panicked people, etc. I think a zombie outbreak would be pretty likely. Maybe not to the point of ending the world, but certainly thinning out our numbers considerably. Like WWZ, we'd likely eventually figure out a way to properly fight back.

Also, Fade, keep in mind that the original Night was in a small, rural area. Cities are basically screwed due to crowded areas and who knows where there are dead people there. Hospitals would be the first place that'd be the most dangerous.

But yeah, it's all fun theory to talk about. Zombie movies are awesome, no matter what. :D
But, in most zombie lore a bite is required to spread the infection. I guess if it was airborne, or spread by an insect/small animal you'd have your issues. It's just funny because you always see these hordes of zombies tearing people apart. But, if you tear someone apart, you aren't left with a host who is infected and able to become in ambulating zombie. It's not a game of zombie tag, where they bite your arm once and move on.
 
I think the thing to keep in mind is that at first, most people just get bit once, what with the hunger just setting in and the recently dead realizing that most people just don't taste that good. A lot of the early biting incidents are a new zombie trying to find one they like. It's not until they get really hungry and they've run out Latinos (who, for whatever reason, are genetically disposed to deliciousness) that they just tear apart anyone they come by.
 
Well, the rules for Walking Dead (in the comic, maybe not the show just yet) include anyone that dies, period. We've seen people getting shot, not in the head, and come back. Going by that rule, along with spreading via bitten infection, it could turn into a pretty nasty situation.

Plus, the zombies in 28 Days Later and Zombieland were more "infected" than undead, especially 28 Days (which I also love because it's still a fun zombie-esque movie). Someone else mentioned elsewhere that the zombies I'm talking about (the dead, not infected) would be considered "ghouls".
 
J

Joe Johnson

Well, the rules for Walking Dead (in the comic, maybe not the show just yet) include anyone that dies, period. We've seen people getting shot, not in the head, and come back. Going by that rule, along with spreading via bitten infection, it could turn into a pretty nasty situation.

Plus, the zombies in 28 Days Later and Zombieland were more "infected" than undead, especially 28 Days (which I also love because it's still a fun zombie-esque movie). Someone else mentioned elsewhere that the zombies I'm talking about (the dead, not infected) would be considered "ghouls".
Interesting. So, in the comic, it sounds like pretty much everyone gets infected through some means, and it's just a latent illness that doesn't come out until the body dies. So, maybe the body is fighting the infection constantly, but once they die, the infection can gain control. I sort of like that.
 

fade

Staff member
I think it's true in the Romero-verse, too. It was established fairly well in Land, when the old man who committed suicide turned.
 
J

Joe Johnson

Decent finale. In the future though, can we keep the "hold back the hillbilly" scenes to one per episode?
 
Decent finale. In the future though, can we keep the "hold back the hillbilly" scenes to one per episode?
I dunno, there's a special charm to having people attempt to have a desperate conversation while the time clock is clicking while the redneck is totally focused on whacking away on the fire door with his fire axe repeatedly in the background. I counted the crunches, I was smiling from ear to ear.


Also, I'm calling it now: Black woman dies at the CDC. She doesn't have a name, she's not in the comic, and she's not part of any of the groups. She doesn't have a chance.

Gratz on the call.


It was a good episode and I'm happy on the direction at the end of it.

The plot is WIDE open for next season.

How long do we have to wait for Season 2? Fall?
 
J

Joe Johnson

Decent finale. In the future though, can we keep the "hold back the hillbilly" scenes to one per episode?
I dunno, there's a special charm to having people attempt to have a desperate conversation while the time clock is clicking while the redneck is totally focused on whacking away on the fire door with his fire axe repeatedly in the background. I counted the crunches, I was smiling from ear to ear.

No, that part I thought was pretty damn funny. It's the "I'mGonnaKillYOU!!!", "No, Stop" (three guys hold him back). I think it happened twice with him, and then once with the other cop.
 
Decent finale. In the future though, can we keep the "hold back the hillbilly" scenes to one per episode?
I dunno, there's a special charm to having people attempt to have a desperate conversation while the time clock is clicking while the redneck is totally focused on whacking away on the fire door with his fire axe repeatedly in the background. I counted the crunches, I was smiling from ear to ear.


Also, I'm calling it now: Black woman dies at the CDC. She doesn't have a name, she's not in the comic, and she's not part of any of the groups. She doesn't have a chance.

Gratz on the call.


It was a good episode and I'm happy on the direction at the end of it.

The plot is WIDE open for next season.

How long do we have to wait for Season 2? Fall?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the plan I've read is for the series to start up again next Halloween.

The fuck? Why is my text in the quote, it's outside the code...
 
BTW I appreciated the "flashback" to what happened in the hospital, it answered some questions. I hope they do something for the other survivors, those who aren't throw-ins like the black woman or the Mexican family.

BTW how heavy would that gurney be? Wouldn't the undead smell him from across the door? And why is the intro music so awesome?
 

fade

Staff member
I found the whole test subject 19 brain scan bit both awesomely creepy and scientifically annoying. Ignoring physics for a moment, that means that the walkers are technically alive. That means damage to their major organs should kill them, just the same as anyone else. They shouldn't rot, and if they did, it should kill them. I know--it's almost identical to Romero's explanation in Day, but I had the same problem there.
 
I found the whole test subject 19 brain scan bit both awesomely creepy and scientifically annoying. Ignoring physics for a moment, that means that the walkers are technically alive. That means damage to their major organs should kill them, just the same as anyone else. They shouldn't rot, and if they did, it should kill them. I know--it's almost identical to Romero's explanation in Day, but I had the same problem there.
That part sent shivers up my spine and the part where they find our that they are doomed... the air will be set on fire, no pain.... those were possibly top 5 moments of the season.

Though the explanation left something along the lines of what you just said in my mind.
 
Not gonna bother with spoiler text. We're six pages in. Ya'll click on the thread, ya'll better expect spoilers.

DAMN good finale. For a second, I really thought they were gonna kill off Dale and Andrea (two of the best characters in the comic). Soon as Dale sat down, I knew what was going to happen next.

Also, I don't know much about science, but I don't think the brain stem cell activity would mean organ damage would kill them. They're still not alive, either, really. They're basically just kind of going through the motions, following very basic instinct and maybe a small bit of barely remembered memories. Pain wouldn't register with them.

That said, I'm glad we got only an explanation on how they worked not how or where they originated. That's the best kinda zombie stuff, to me. :D

You know what the worst part of the episode was? IT WAS THE LAST ONE! Now we have to wait until next October for the next one! GRAAAAAARGH!
 
I liked a lot of the subtleties in this episode.

When they showed the doctor guy the next day, in his nice white coat with his hair combed, I knew he was getting ready to die.
 
Also, I don't know much about science, but I don't think the brain stem cell activity would mean organ damage would kill them.
But those brain cells couldn't function if they weren't, for example, receiving oxygen through blood, making the lungs and heart still lethal shots.
 
Also, I don't know much about science, but I don't think the brain stem cell activity would mean organ damage would kill them.
But those brain cells couldn't function if they weren't, for example, receiving oxygen through blood, making the lungs and heart still lethal shots.[/QUOTE]

But we already know they don't need those organs: The head of the one eating the deer was still trying to bite things (or at least it's mouth was moving up and down) long after it was severed from it's body. It wasn't until the hick shot him in the head that he died. This seems to indicate that they get energy from some other means than eating flesh or breathing. Perhaps photosynthesis?
 
Photosynthesis would mean they would be more sluggish at night, wouldn't it? I think they established ghouls get more...lively...at night.

Maybe whatever is firing those synapses is all that they need to function. It doesn't need to be explained. We're talking about non-existant ghouls, mind you. :D Don't stop discussing it on my behalf, though. It's fun. :)
 
E

Element 117

can we just get a full season, instead of this 6 episodes biznezz? Show was hot, it should get a full run.
 
Top