Search forums

Forums

Export thread

The Trayvon Martin Discussion Thread

Limit: 500

Mar 20, 2012#1

Charlie Don't Surf

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...ld-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/

This whole story is just sickening. It makes me sick about the awful "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground" laws. Makes me sick for the gun culture and influence of the toxic NRA in America. I hope this guy is put behind bars so he can shoot no more young colored people for walking down the street.

Mar 20, 2012#2

sixpackshaker

I have no problem with either "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground." "Stand Your Ground" should not apply here because the killer chased the innocent kid down and assaulted him. Then it sounds like the kid defended himself and got shot for it. I cannot see how this case was dismissed so easily.

Mar 20, 2012#3

Soliloquy

Luckily the FBI is looking into this. No way the guy's not going to jail.

Mar 20, 2012#4

Charlie Don't Surf

sixpackshaker said:
I have no problem with either "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground." "Stand Your Ground" should not apply here because the killer chased the innocent kid down and assaulted him. Then it sounds like the kid defended himself and got shot for it. I cannot see how this case was dismissed so easily.

"defended himself" by crying out in terror when a man with 100 pounds on him pointed a gun at him, yup, check.

Mar 20, 2012#5

strawman

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._s_killer_hasn_t_been_prosecuted_.single.html

“In case after case during the past six years, Floridians who shot and killed unarmed opponents have not been prosecuted.”

Now the death of Trayvon Martin is the latest in that line. Maybe this is the kind of case that is so sad and so tinged with racism that Florida will think hard about the very scary place where their self-defense laws have taken them. Maybe.

Mar 20, 2012#6

Charlie Don't Surf

Oh also, as always, a healthy "Fuck the Police" to the cops that worked hard to cover this up and quiet witnesses.

Mar 20, 2012#7

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
"defended himself" by crying out in terror when a man with 100 pounds on him pointed a gun at him, yup, check.

He cried for help, and bloodied the guys nose during the initial scuffle. Then the asshole pulled the gun and shot the kid.

Mar 20, 2012#8

Frankie Williamson

Ugh,

Mar 20, 2012#9

GasBandit

The man shot the kid and should be held accountable. "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand your ground" don't enter into it. If I'm driving my car and staying in my lane and yet still hit somebody, that doesn't mean we need to "revisit" the practice of issuing driver's licenses.

Mar 20, 2012#10

Soliloquy

Well, it certainly looks like Florida needs to revisit the way it applies the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws, since they were going to let this guy walk.

Mar 20, 2012#11

AshburnerX

Castle Law only comes into play if someone breaks into your home/car and refuses to stop/leave. The moment they start to leave, Castle Law goes away and you can't do anything to them without it being homicide.

The kid ran and was chased down. Castle Law does not apply.

Mar 20, 2012#12

Chippy

Yeah, I'm not too big on guns or the castle law, but this is less of a Castle Law issue and more of a stupid racist asshole issue.

Mar 20, 2012#13

Dave

Charlie, did you call him a colored kid?

Mar 20, 2012#14

makare

What a tragic story.

If this is accurate to what happened I have to say this is the part that really made me go wtf!?
12. A police officer “corrected” a key witness. “The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.” [ABC News]

I mean, racist gun nut douche bags acting like racist gun nut douche bags is not that surprising but that is just terrifying.

Mar 20, 2012#15

Charlie Don't Surf

I never blamed the Castle Law on this, it just made me think about it.

Mar 20, 2012#16

Chippy

My bad, then. Phrasing in the OP made me think you were.

Mar 20, 2012#17

figmentPez

The part of all this that's making my head hurt is the comparison to Kony 2012. The idea that racism is the cause for this shooting not being talked about on Twitter in the same volume is disgusting, and illogical. I'm not going to even bother listing all the reasons why that's wrong. If you can't examine the issue for yourself and realize that it's far too complex to try to guilt people into feeling racist for not having been talking about this already, then you fail at some basic level. It could be a failure of logic, a poor understanding of how hit-or-miss social memes can be or maybe just poor perspective of scale, scope and time, but whatever the cause, just stop and think!

Mar 20, 2012#18

Charlie Don't Surf

I do think it's a tragic fact that this would have gotten more coverage if it was a rich white boy.

Mar 20, 2012#19

makare

And probably even more if it had been a rich white girl.

There is always someone more newsworthy.

Mar 20, 2012#20

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I do think it's a tragic fact that this would have gotten more coverage if it was a rich white boy.

I doubt that, because the perp would have been arrested on the spot. At least the cops would have followed procedure, and take the shooter in and run the needed tests.

Mar 20, 2012#21

sixpackshaker

makare said:
And probably even more if it had been a rich white girl.

There is always someone more newsworthy.

That only gets coverage when the girl goes missing. Then the media can make up fantastic stories about the girl being a sex-slave in Bahrain. Just like Dr. Phil did with Natalee Hollaway. He is a terrible person.

Mar 20, 2012#22

makare

I am really not sure why more news coverage is a good thing. What benefit to the family or the victim is there when the news story is wide spread?

Mar 20, 2012#23

Soliloquy

makare said:
I am really not sure why more news coverage is a good thing. What benefit to the family or the victim is there when the news story is wide spread?

It did end up getting the feds involved. If it was ignored, media-wise, I bet the guy would have gotten away with it.

As far as the news coverage thing goes, I do have this to say: I work at a local news website, and decided that the federal involvement made it worth putting the story on the front page. Also on the front page was the third story that we've done about a certain white elementary school girl who was hit and killed by a school bus.

The white girl story got 25X as many views. It probably has a lot to do with it being a local story, but still.

Mar 20, 2012#24

Charlie Don't Surf

makare said:
I am really not sure why more news coverage is a good thing. What benefit to the family or the victim is there when the news story is wide spread?

In this case, more coverage and more outrage might lead to the killer being brought to justice so he doesn't do this sort of thing again. Or even possibly changes to the laws so less cowboy vigilantes like this sack of shit have guns.

Mar 20, 2012#25

strawman

The main problem is that the relevant law depends entirely on whether the person felt as though they were in danger or not.

We need to be able to say, "You may have felt your life was in danger, but that feeling was irrational - there was nothing in his manner, behavior, possessions, or ability that suggested your life was in imminent danger. Even though you felt you were in danger, you were wrong and thus the stand your ground law doesn't apply."

I don't necessarily think the law is wrong, but the fact that someone can say, "I felt my life was in danger from this toddler" and the prosecutor throws up her hands means that it's not being correctly applied. There should be a limit to what counts as a reasonable threat, and people should not be allowed to use that excuse when no reasonable person in the same situation would feel threatened.

Mar 20, 2012#26

Ravenpoe

Everything about this story makes me sad, and angry.

Mar 20, 2012#27

Officer_Charon

Castle Laws are a good thing - they protect homeowners against frivolous lawsuits when burglars sue the homeowners for defending their home.

This guy is a douchebag who should swing for hunting down this kid without probable cause. Contemptible schmuck who thinks he's covered by the law.

The officer "correcting" the witness... I can see HOW that might happen, if the officer believed one thing, heard the witness stating the opposite, and wanted to ensure accuracy in reporting. I HOPE that's all that is.

We have several people like this living in one of our subdivisions, albeit without quite so much gunplay. But god forbid you're a black person walking through their neighborhood - you WILL get called about.

And, as with every time he says it, "Fuck you too," to Charlie. Call a hippie next time you need help.

Mar 20, 2012#28

Meep

The more we find out about this guy the worse it looks.

Mar 21, 2012#29

fade

I am in no way defending Zimmerman--the guy should pay for his crime. However, they have to keep saying "may have said", and the Today show went so far as to say it's unclear what he said. The racial slur thing is starting to feel like an unnecessary stretch that may do more harm than good.

Mar 21, 2012#30

ElJuski

Yeah, I think the biggest line I draw with Charlie is his stance against cops, particularly the cops that live in big or dangerous cities. I couldn't imagine what an overnight beat on the Southeast side would consist of. It's a stressful job, and unfortunately, one of those jobs where you're under constant scrutiny from a population that doesn't always necessarily see the good in what you're doing.

Just like teachers though, sometimes there truly are just shitty cops though. I've met a handful of bored big-fish-small-pond-assholes growing up in the suburbs.

BUT ANYWAY. Good thing this story is getting more detail in the news cycle. Justice needs to be served.

Mar 21, 2012#31

Chippy

Real Talk: Chippy loves Cops.

Mar 21, 2012#32

Ravenpoe

Chippy said:
Real Talk: Chippy loves Cops.

Send Chippy a cop.

Mar 21, 2012#33

Cajungal

Read about this last night... How horrible. This guy needs to be punished.

Mar 22, 2012#34

Charlie Don't Surf

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Mar 22, 2012#35

fade

I dislike stories like that one. What happened was terrible. Zimmerman and the police involved need to be punished. But this kind of story invites someone to create a separate story about why the police distrust young black males, with just as many anecdotes about innocent cops-to-be-married sprayed with 51 bullets from young black males. The problem's not going to be fixed with incensing, context-free anecdotes that get people in tit-for-tat arguments. Dale Carnegie knew this decades ago.

Mar 22, 2012#36

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Trayvon Martin was killed and his racist gun-nut vigilante murderer is still free

I haven't read anything about him being a "gun nut." I'm curious what that portion of your statement stems from.

Mar 23, 2012#37

Charlie Don't Surf

I am a radical on gun ownership, I think it's kind of crazy to carry a gun on your person in public (obviously, cops nonwithstanding)

Mar 23, 2012#38

Covar

stienman said:
I haven't read anything about him being a "gun nut." I'm curious what that portion of your statement stems from.

He owned one.

Mar 23, 2012#39

Soliloquy

Here's an interesting story that challenges what's being said.

Mar 23, 2012#40

Charlie Don't Surf

hahahah that fucking letter "look at all these black friends he has!!! he's latino, can't be racist!!!"

Newsflash: Racist doesn't mean white. People of color can be incredibly racist!!!!!

ALSO last time I checked being racist isn't a crime (unfortunately), even if he's not racist, he still fucking murdered a kid!!!!

Mar 23, 2012#41

Soliloquy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
hahahah that fucking letter "look at all these black friends he has!!! he's latino, can't be racist!!!"

Newsflash: Racist doesn't mean white. People of color can be incredibly racist!!!!!

ALSO last time I checked being racist isn't a crime (unfortunately), even if he's not racist, he still fucking murdered a kid!!!!

There's more to the story than the first few paragraphs.

Mar 23, 2012#42

SeraRelm

Don't bother. Someone might be racist so anything naysaying that isn't worth reading.

Mar 23, 2012#43

Charlie Don't Surf

I read the letter.

Mar 23, 2012#44

Soliloquy

I guess the main things I found interesting were

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.

and

Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt

Pretty much it just shows that there's more to this story than the general knowledge of "guy stalks boy, guy shoots boy" that's being reported everywhere. I still think the guy at least needs to get arrested (I mean, he was following the unarmed kid while carrying a gun [well, the letter denies that he followed anyone, but whatever], then shot the kid to death,) but the actual circumstances of the shooting seem a little less cut-and-dry.

Mar 23, 2012#45

Soliloquy

What worries me is this, though... the guy may very well have an adequate enough legal excuse to not be arrested, no matter how BS his case may be, so even the federal investigation might not end in his arrest. And if that happens... well, things might end badly.

Mar 23, 2012#46

Meep

Soliloquy said:
What worries me is this, though... the guy may very well have an adequate enough legal excuse to not be arrested, no matter how BS his case may be, so even the federal investigation might not end in his arrest. And if that happens... well, things might end badly.

Not only that, but the victim clearly brought it upon himself.

Mar 23, 2012#47

Soliloquy

Meep said:
Not only that, but the victim clearly brought it upon himself.

Oh, boy. Really? Geraldo Rivera is blaming the hoodie? I wear hoodies. I wore one yesterday. They're common clothes worn by people who don't like being cold. And it was raining.

Why people even listen to those guys is beyond me. Or rather... I wish it were beyond me. Stupid networks making money off of confirmation bias.

Mar 23, 2012#48

sixpackshaker

The only time I look at a person wearing a hoodie as though they are up to no good... is when they are wearing one in Texas during the summer. 98 degrees and a hoodie means that guy is not in his right mind.

Mar 23, 2012#49

SeraRelm

Out of curiosity, was the gated community named Sandford?

Mar 23, 2012#50

sixpackshaker

Missed it by a "d"

Their neighborhood watch worked better. At least they covered up the crimes in a better manor.

Mar 23, 2012#51

CrimsonSoul

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I am a radical on gun ownership, I think it's kind of crazy to carry a gun on your person in public (obviously, cops nonwithstanding)

I'll just leave this here...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html
http://www.disinfo.com/2010/03/the-police-arent-legally-obligated-to-protect-you/
"Don’t look to Constitution for help. “In its landmark decision of DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services,” Stevens writes, “the U.S. Supreme Court declared that the Constitution does not impose a duty on the state and local governments to protect the citizens from criminal harm.”"

Mar 23, 2012#52

makare

If you are going to leave it there probably should explain what your point is exactly.

Mar 23, 2012#53

Soliloquy

Well, it seems to me that he's saying that since police aren't obligated to protect you by law, people should be allowed to protect themselves with firearms.

Mar 23, 2012#54

fade

Ah the classic a implies b, therefore b must imply a. This case was to prevent frivolous lawsuits, not to say that police won't protect you.

Mar 23, 2012#55

makare

Yeah that'll work out just fine....

Mar 23, 2012#56

sixpackshaker

I wonder how many police procedural shows will have an episode based on this for the opening of the fall season...

Mar 23, 2012#57

Covar

Sadly Law & Order won't.

Mar 23, 2012#58

Gared

sixpackshaker said:
I wonder how many police procedural shows will have an episode based on this for the opening of the fall season...

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the answer to your question is, "yes."

Mar 23, 2012#59

Soliloquy

fade said:
Ah the classic a implies b, therefore b must imply a. This case was to prevent frivolous lawsuits, not to say that police won't protect you.

makare said:
Yeah that'll work out just fine....

Well, to turn this around on you, would you say that a woman in a situation such as the one described in the story shouldn't be allowed to protect herself or her children with a gun?

Mar 23, 2012#60

sixpackshaker

Gared said:
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the answer to your question is, "yes."

I was looking for a Number between 2 and 20...

Is there any other form of Drama on American TV?

Mar 23, 2012#61

Soliloquy

sixpackshaker said:
I was looking for a Number between 2 and 20...

Is there any other form of Drama on American TV?

Well, the CSI people technically aren't police. So... there's that?

Mar 23, 2012#62

Gared

sixpackshaker said:
I was looking for a Number between 2 and 20...

Is there any other form of Drama on American TV?

That's my stock answer for "all of them."

Mar 23, 2012#63

Covar

Soliloquy said:
Well, the CSI people technically aren't police. So... there's that?

They're the Las Vegas Equivalent of Judge Dredd.

Mar 23, 2012#64

Soliloquy

Covar said:
They're the Las Vegas Equivalent of Judge Dredd.

Though they also take the time after each case to make sure the suspect feels adequately bad about themselves, moving their jurisdiction to the emotional realm as well.

Mar 23, 2012#65

strawman

Soliloquy said:
Though they also take the time after each case to make sure the suspect feels adequately bad about themselves, moving their jurisdiction to the emotional realm as well.

It appeals to the visceral need humans have for making people not only meet justice, but know they were wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

Much like internet arguments...

Mar 23, 2012#66

Soliloquy

stienman said:
It appeals to the visceral need humans have for making people not only meet justice, but know they were wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

Much like internet arguments...

Wrong!

Mar 23, 2012#67

strawman

Soliloquy said:
Wrong!

Oooh burn. I totally got what I deserved and you can tell by my expression as I do the perp walk.

Mar 24, 2012#68

makare

Soliloquy said:
Well, to turn this around on you, would you say that a woman in a situation such as the one described in the story shouldn't be allowed to protect herself or her children with a gun?

I'd say the chance of the "protection" working out for her is less likely then a story of child accidentally shoots self, sibling, dog etc with mothers gun.

Mar 24, 2012#69

Soliloquy

makare said:
I'd say the chance of the "protection" working out for her is less likely then a story of child accidentally shoots self, sibling, dog etc with mothers gun.

So, is that a "no?"

Mar 24, 2012#70

makare

Do I think she should be able to carry a gun? sure
do I think it is the right move? absolutely not.

Happy?

Mar 24, 2012#71

Soliloquy

makare said:
Do I think she should be able to carry a gun? sure
do I think it is the right move? absolutely not.

Happy?

Fair enough. And you're right to be concerned about having guns in the house with children -- statistically, gun accidents happen a lot more often than people successfully defending themselves using guns. Too many people buy guns with the mindset that "guns mean safety" (or worse, "guns mean I'm cool!") without taking into consideration the fact that guns are extremely dangerous.

I guess the question is whether that's an issue of owning guns, or whether it's an issue of lax gun safety. A gun accident is unlikely to happen if the weapon is unloaded and locked in a gun safe with the key kept elsewhere. I haven't heard of any accidents that have happened when those rules were followed.

Mar 24, 2012#72

Bowielee

I'm just going to put out there that the 2nd Amendment is an antiquated addition to the constitution and was only relevent when we had a real threat of not having a standing militia. It has been whored out to be something that it never really was by the absolutely insane NRA.

This is coming from someone who's dad was a cop and a hunter and has been around guns most his life. I even used to enjoy going to the shooting range. I still think the whole "if guns are made criminal, only criminals will have guns" and "guns don't kill people, people kill people" are some of the most stupid arguments ever put forth.

And that's pretty much all I have to say about that.

Mar 24, 2012#73

Frank

https://twitter.com/#!/GeraldoRivera

Well, you guys are all idiots. It wasn't guns or racists but the hoodie that caused this whole tragedy.

Mar 24, 2012#74

North_Ranger

Frank said:
https://twitter.com/#!/GeraldoRivera

Well, you guys are all idiots. It wasn't guns or racists but the hoodie that caused this whole tragedy.

Oh come on... That's just a helluva stupid argument.

By that reasoning, I should have been arrested every time when on weekend leave back when I was doing my armed service. Our hair was shaved off, so as a tall, broad-shouldered, twenty-something white man I should have been a prime target in suspicion of racist crimes. Skinheads, you know?

Mar 24, 2012#75

Bowielee

Oh, for the love of Zod...

Jesus, Geraldo is such an idiot.

Mar 24, 2012#76

CrimsonSoul

Bowielee said:
I'm just going to put out there that the 2nd Amendment is an antiquated addition to the constitution and was only relevent when we had a real threat of not having a standing militia. It has been whored out to be something that it never really was by the absolutely insane NRA.

This is coming from someone who's dad was a cop and a hunter and has been around guns most his life. I even used to enjoy going to the shooting range. I still think the whole "if guns are made criminal, only criminals will have guns" and "guns don't kill people, people kill people" are some of the most stupid arguments ever put forth.

And that's pretty much all I have to say about that.

I have to disagree, the point of the 2A is so that the people don't have to fear an oppressing government like England for example. The 2A is there so that the government fears the people.

Mar 24, 2012#77

Officer_Charon

And it's been working so well lately, too...

Mar 24, 2012#78

makare

I also fear the hell out of the people for similar reasons.

Mar 24, 2012#79

Yoshimickster

Fucking psychos in this world man. Just about anyone can use the "self-defense" excuse nowadays. And he may WALK just because of some racist incompetent acist ass-hole cop. This fuckin' country. I couldn't even get past number 17, it was just too friggin scary and real man.

Mar 25, 2012#80

Krisken

Well crap. Looks like the Castle Doctrine law in WI applies to a case that has claimed the life of a 20 year old trying to hide from police during an underage party.

Be nice to find a happy medium between self defense and giving people an excuse to load a weapon and fire it on an unarmed person.

Mar 25, 2012#81

Bowielee

Hey, look at that, Are we surprised that this kid is also black?

Mar 25, 2012#82

Krisken

Bowielee said:
Hey, look at that, Are we surprised that this kid is also black?

Considering there are roughly 20 black people from West Bend, yes, I was surprised.

Mar 25, 2012#83

CrimsonSoul

Krisken said:
Considering there are roughly 20 black people from West Bend, yes, I was surprised.

My wife says quite a bit live in West Bend because of how close it is to Milwaukee

Mar 25, 2012#84

Charlie Don't Surf

Krisken said:
Considering there are roughly 20 black people from West Bend, yes, I was surprised.

19*

Mar 25, 2012#85

Bones

I still feel like this whole deal hinges on the fact that gentleman in question exited his SUV to confront the victim. He was instructed not to, but decided to anyways.

Mar 25, 2012#86

SeraRelm

I'm only offering this as another point of view, not saying I agree or disagree with it: On the opposite side of the spectrum, what if this neighborhood watch guy got shot and killed for checking out something suspicious without having a firearm for protection? I'm not going to defend someone killing another, but having the firearm if you're trying to protect your community doesn't seem like a bad idea. Shitty situation with a shitty outcome, regardless of who was involved.

This, however, I agree with.

Soliloquy said:
What worries me is this, though... the guy may very well have an adequate enough legal excuse to not be arrested, no matter how BS his case may be, so even the federal investigation might not end in his arrest. And if that happens... well, things might end badly.

Though I'd say "worse" instead of "badly".

Mar 25, 2012#87

SeraRelm

And Charlie Don't Surf, you definitely have a way of making people not want to agree with your point of view just because of the self righteous condescension you convey (purposefully or not) in your posts.

Mar 25, 2012#88

fade

That's what I meant when I said that it's not what's said, it's how it's said. Many times in history it has been pointed out that the quickest way to start an unwinnable argument is to tell your opponent he or she is wrong. They will immediately take the defensive, even if they originally agreed with you.

Mar 25, 2012#89

SeraRelm

fade said:
That's what I meant when I said that it's not what's said, it's how it's said. Many times in history it has been pointed out that the quickest way to start an unwinnable argument is to tell your opponent he or she is wrong. They will immediately take the defensive, even if they originally agreed with you.

You're wrong!

Mar 25, 2012#90

Charlie Don't Surf

SeraRelm said:
And Charlie Don't Surf, you definitely have a way of making people not want to agree with your point of view just because of the self righteous condescension you convey (purposefully or not) in your posts.

sorry for party rocking

Mar 25, 2012#91

Krisken

CrimsonSoul said:
My wife says quite a bit live in West Bend because of how close it is to Milwaukee

Unless there has been a huge migration in the last 10 years and they're afraid to go outside, being black is still a the smallest minority in the city. It's not called "White Bend" for nothing. (besides, I DO live here, ya know)

Mar 25, 2012#92

ElJuski

The community watch guy having a gun isn't the problem; having what looks like a deranged person wielding a gun--especially if he already has a prejudice--against an innocent kid (even if he's wearing a hoodie, lol Geraldo) is the problem.

This country needs a massive attitude adjustment towards culture, race, and guns. And it's fascinating to see this all play out on a grand media scale. Once again, the latent prejudices, fears and anxieties concerning race relations comes out, and it's ugly, ugly, ugly.

Knee-jerk reactions won't save shit though.

Mar 25, 2012#93

CrimsonSoul

Just ban hoodies. Bam. Problem solved

Mar 25, 2012#94

checkeredhat

It wasn't until I read this story elsewhere that I decided to open this thread. I usually stay out of these threads because the arguments over politics just get too heated and devolve into flamewars too quickly and too often.
I don't really have much to add to the conversation. It doesn't look like anyone does, really. The whole story is just repulsive.

I just popped in to point out that Fox News sold hoodies on its website, and they were taken off shortly after Giraldo made his comments.

No, I don't peruse Fox News for merch.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/fox-news-irresponsibly-selling-dangerous-hoodies

Mar 25, 2012#95

Krisken

Seems most people agree that knee-jerk reactions are bad and would only cause problems in the future regarding gun laws, but something should be done to prevent things like this in the future. Pretty reasonable, I think.

Mar 25, 2012#96

Officer_Charon

I believe I shall invest in a black "Cops" hoodie. :troll:

Mar 25, 2012#97

Bones

shocking news today, as one of savannah's finest was accidentally shot to death by a vigilante who thought he was a criminal because of his hoodie. The truly unfortunate part was that the police officer himself was investigating reports of said vigilante following youths in hoodies.
:rage:

Mar 25, 2012#98

Officer_Charon

"I regret nothing..."

Mar 25, 2012#99

CrimsonSoul

Krisken said:
Seems most people agree that knee-jerk reactions are bad and would only cause problems in the future regarding gun laws, but something should be done to prevent things like this in the future. Pretty reasonable, I think.

Yeah there's "stand your ground" and then there's "stalk the guy confront him then kill him and claim self defense"

Mar 26, 2012#100

Adammon

Thread seems to have died a bit as more details have emerged conflicting with the title of this thread.

Mar 26, 2012#101

Charlie Don't Surf

Adammon said:
Thread seems to have died a bit as more details have emerged conflicting with the title of this thread.

go on

Mar 26, 2012#102

Adammon

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16000239

Tl dr version

Zimmerman attacked by Martin
Head smashed into ground
Eye witness corroborates Zimmerman
Injuries to Zimmerman consistent with account
Martin suspended for mj possession
Has prior suspensions for assault

I guess waiting for facts is so unhip nowadays.

Mar 26, 2012#103

Ravenpoe

Adammon said:
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16000239

Tl dr version

Zimmerman attacked by Martin
Head smashed into ground
Eye witness corroborates Zimmerman
Injuries to Zimmerman consistent with account
Martin suspended for mj possession
Has prior suspensions for assault

I guess waiting for facts is so unhip nowadays.

MJ possession. Well, clearly he was a psycho that needed to be put down.

Mar 26, 2012#104

Charlie Don't Surf

If Zimmerman ran up to him after the police told him to stop, pointed a gun in his face, then got pushed down, THEN shot him, he's still a piece of shit gun-nut vigilante murderer.

Probably still a racist too

Mar 26, 2012#105

sixpackshaker

Now that Zimmerman has a $10,000 bounty on his head, he knows how it feels to be hunted by vigilantes.

Mar 26, 2012#106

checkeredhat

Adammon said:
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16000239

Tl dr version

Zimmerman attacked by Martin -according to Zimmerman. Which was already his report.
Head smashed into ground - Even according to his own report, this happened when Martin was "trying to take his gun". Meaning he had pulled a gun on a 17 year old kid and the kid fought back. Which was already included in the initial reports.
Eye witness corroborates Zimmerman - corroborates that he saw a guy lying on the grass and in pain. This doesn't in any way conflict either story. It doesn't really support either one, either.
Injuries to Zimmerman consistent with account - Again. Nothing new.
Martin suspended for mj possession - Entirely irrelevant to the case. He probably got grounded as a kid too!
Has prior suspensions for assault - Where'd you see that? I read through what you just posted three times and didn't see anything mentioning that.

I guess waiting for facts is so unhip nowadays.

I'm all for Innocent until proven guilty, but the facts remain unchanged. In fact that was my theory on why this thread has slowed down; everyone's already said their two cents, and nothing new has come up for anyone to add anything new.

Mar 26, 2012#107

PotaDOS

Soliloquy said:
A gun accident is unlikely to happen if the weapon is unloaded and locked in a gun safe with the key kept elsewhere. I haven't heard of any accidents that have happened when those rules were followed.

I don't understand the point of this. If you want a weapon for defense, why make it so difficult to acquire when your safety is threatened? I guess to me, if I hear thieves breaking through a window in my home after midnight, I'd much rather grab a baseball bat or something that I keep under my bed over trying to find and then fumble with a safe key before loading my firearm. I don't imagine too many scenarios where I would be totally calm in retrieving my weapon with from its safe with plenty of time to spare so I can prevent myself from becoming a corpse.

CrimsonSoul said:
I have to disagree, the point of the 2A is so that the people don't have to fear an oppressing government like England for example. The 2A is there so that the government fears the people.

I don't think this kind of logic applies anymore. I also don't think I have to explain why.

Mar 26, 2012#108

Dave

My biggest problem with guns isn't that there's a background check before getting one, it's because there's no IQ test.

Mar 26, 2012#109

Krisken

Dave said:
My biggest problem with guns isn't that there's a background check before getting one, it's because there's no IQ test.

Sadly, stupid actions aren't restricted to stupid people.

Mar 26, 2012#110

Chippy

Adammon said:
Martin suspended for mj possession

WELL FUCK ME WHAT A DANGER TO SOCIETY

Mar 26, 2012#111

Adammon

To the intelligencia taking solely one part of a list and flipping tables,my only response is a simple shake of the head.

I truly feel this story is being sold more than told. Right from the picture of Zimmerman in orange prison clothes to a 4 year old picture of Martin In the end, it is a shame that one person lay dead and another whose life is ruined but I'm not about to turn off my brain because I'm being pushed to a conclusion.

Of course it's entirely possible that an entire police force and investigation is conspiring against a sweet innocent black kid.

Mar 26, 2012#112

Krisken

Adammon said:
To the intelligencia taking solely one part of a list and flipping tables,my only response is a simple shake of the head.

I truly feel this story is being sold more than told. Right from the picture of Zimmerman in orange prison clothes to a 4 year old picture of Martin In the end, it is a shame that one person lay dead and another whose life is ruined but I'm not about to turn off my brain because I'm being pushed to a conclusion.

Of course it's entirely possible that an entire police force and investigation is conspiring against a sweet innocent black kid.

Or more likely a story is being invented now that the whole police force is catching shit and a nation is angry at them. Ya know, cause that could never happen.

There are two stories here. My guess is something in the middle occurred. Now it's just damage control.

Mar 26, 2012#113

Dave

Krisken said:
Sadly, stupid actions aren't restricted to stupid people.

Well, you'll notice I have yet to chime in on this other than a snarky comment or two. Let me give my take.

Nobody knows what all happened on that night and we probably won't. One reason for this is that one of the main people in the altercation is dead. So was it a self-defense shooting? Nope. I fail to see how it was considering Zimmerman was expressly told to stop following Martin and yet did not. But it is not clear if he did so because he's racist or because he had an overly large sense of importance. So let's look at this from each point of view.

Zimmerman: It's night in a gated community. Here's a guy - regardless of race, although I still believe this had some bearing on the situation based on what Zimmerman could be heard saying - walking around in a hoodie and looking around. To Zimmerman this looked suspicious. And since he was carrying a weapon without proper training or knowledge of use, it was used to escalate the situation instead of diffusing it. He went full Rambo and tried to take the law into his own hands, chasing the guy until the altercation occurred. Whether Martin physically assaulted Zimmerman is immaterial at this point. At NO TIME should Zimmerman have been in close enough proximity to Martin to have this go down. The whole situation is 100% Zimmerman's fault, even if this turns out to be a self-defense shooting. He was in a situation over his head and instead of following orders he kept at it.

Martin: He's walking home to his aunt's house when this guy starts to follow him. It's dark and the guy keeps watching him. He tries to walk away but the guy runs to catch back up and find him. At that point (or a point quite close to that), Martin approaches the individual and words are exchanged. A physical altercation happens and Martin is shot. Martin is 100% at fault for approaching the guy following him for any reason. He should have walked to his aunt's house or called the cops on the phone. Instead, he got all macho and got killed for it.

In summation, both sides were equally stupid. Zimmerman for being too gung ho and Martin for letting his testosterone and pride take over where his brain should have. The police were stupid for dismissing the shooting as quickly as they did without allowing any information from the investigation to be seem by the public. If it were that clean of a shooting, the parents of the boy should have been allowed to view it instead of being shut out completely. And the public is fucking stupid for jumping on this like they did. I can understand the consternation, but the bounty on Zimmerman's head is just fucking dumb and all the big names - and yes, I'm talking about you as well, Mr. President - should just shut the fuck up and wait for the facts to be brought to light. To instantly condemn the shooter as a racist wanna-be is just as gross a miscarriage of justice as those now trying to paint Martin as a thug punk to justify the attack. Not that first impressions and demonizing people ever turned out to be wrong. Except that Senator who everyone thought killed that girl but even though he didn't he lost his job. Or the Atlanta Olympic bomber that turns out was a hero but his life got ruined anyway. Or the stupid Kony thing where the "charity" taking shitloads of money used it for everything but charity. I could go on with examples for days.

In short:

Martin - Stupid kid.
Zimmerman - Dumbass in a situation he had business being in.
Police - PR and handling disaster.
Everyone else - Grabbed up pitchforks before knowing what the fuck was happening.

Mar 26, 2012#114

makare

So martin is stupid for not turning his back on some nutjob who is stalking him?

I gotta disagree there.

Mar 26, 2012#115

Chippy

Adammon said:
To the intelligencia taking solely one part of a list and flipping tables,my only response is a simple shake of the head

Probs because checkered already went through your post with his rebuttal. And using "possession of mj" to make a guy seem dangerous is lolworthy.

But naw you're shaking your head. We are the stupid ones and you are the enlightened intelligent person in a sea of idiots

Mar 26, 2012#116

makare

woah watch out chippy you might have just made a post that actually has some meaning. Don't want to set a precedent.

Mar 26, 2012#117

Chippy

well fuck

Mar 26, 2012#118

makare

there we go.

Mar 26, 2012#119

Dave

makare said:
So martin is stupid for not turning his back on some nutjob who is stalking him?

I gotta disagree there.

You got someone following you in the night and you don't think going home or calling the cops is the right answer? You think confronting the person following you is the right answer? Seriously? Makare, I sincerely hope you're smarter than that.

Mar 26, 2012#120

ElJuski

I remember being a logical, intelligent 40-some year old guy not in the situation at the exact moment when I was a seventeen-year old.

Mar 26, 2012#121

Dave

ElJuski said:
I remember being a logical, intelligent 40-some year old guy not in the situation at the exact moment when I was a seventeen-year old.

When I was 17 I got into a bar fight with a dude who yelled some stuff at a female friend of mine. Yeah, 17 year olds are fucking dumb sometimes when being macho. Doesn't mean it was the smart thing to do. In either his case or mine. In each case it was as much the fault of the 17 year old as the old gent.

Mar 26, 2012#122

ElJuski

It's not the kid's fault he got shot. Whatsoever. And its sad that we live in a society where putting that sort of blame on that kid is okay. We have all fostered a place where that outcome is possible, and we have all fostered a place where when it happens, we cluck our tongues and go, "welp, that guy was a dumbass." It's really, really sad.

Mar 26, 2012#123

Dave

ElJuski said:
It's not the kid's fault he got shot. Whatsoever. And its sad that we live in a society where putting that sort of blame on that kid is okay. We have all fostered a place where that outcome is possible, and we have all fostered a place where when it happens, we cluck our tongues and go, "welp, that guy was a dumbass." It's really, really sad.

If the kid confronted the guy and is the one who started the physical portion of the altercation, you damned right he's got some blame to shoulder. If I start the violence and end up getting shot there's got to be some blame apportioned out to me, whether the guy was a little too eager to shoot or not. But you can read into what I said all you want. If it's dark out and someone is following me, I'm in no way going to confront them.

Mar 26, 2012#124

ElJuski

Getting shot is much different than getting punched in the face. Getting the shit kicked out of you and learning a lesson is MUCH different than losing your life.

Mar 26, 2012#125

Officer_Charon

The public is, as a rule, fucking retarded, given any major incident. Sorry, but it's a fact. Agent K's phrasing in "Men in Black" sums it up perfectly.

Mar 26, 2012#126

Charlie Don't Surf

holy shit I can't believe that you are blaming Martin and calling him macho for getting shot

Mar 26, 2012#127

ElJuski

No one's arguing people's retardation. But people's retardation shouldn't be an excuse to rest on our laurels, or to fail to consider there are much better options to grow as a people and a culture.

Mar 26, 2012#128

Officer_Charon

ElJuski Now THAT is a sentiment I can agree with.

Mar 26, 2012#129

Dave

ElJuski said:
Getting shot is much different than getting punched in the face. Getting the shit kicked out of you and learning a lesson is MUCH different than losing your life.

I see. So you have the same facts as me and are willing to absolve Martin of all blame. Huh.

Just because he's a victim doesn't mean he's innocent, regardless of the intentions of the shooter. I'm saying we just don't know and both men put themselves into a position where this thing happened, so they both deserve some blame. But as I've explained it all and you've chosen to be concrete with your belief one way or another, I think I'll stop arguing with the wall now.

Mar 26, 2012#130

ElJuski

I mean, it's kind of sad, because Trayvon Martin could have been any one of my students. By the end of 2012 I bet you at least three kids in our school will either be dead, missing, or in jail. But just because they're--and let's take the worst case scenario here--arrogant dickhead bastards with no goddamn sense, doesn't mean they deserve to die.

Mar 26, 2012#131

ElJuski

Shifting the blame on the kid is fucking pointless because the violence in retaliation was so unnecessary. The kid didn't play his cards right--nobody ever does. But it's not his fault that the reaction was goddamn awful.

Mar 26, 2012#132

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
holy shit I can't believe that you are blaming Martin and calling him macho for getting shot

The evidence does support Martin punching Zimmerman in the face and slamming his head into the ground.

Yet still if Zimmerman did not: a, follow Martin 2, approach on foot c, confront and corner him... Martin would not be in the situation to assault Zimmerman.

Mar 26, 2012#133

Dave

ElJuski said:
I mean, it's kind of sad, because Trayvon Martin could have been any one of my students. By the end of 2012 I bet you at least three kids in our school will either be dead, missing, or in jail. But just because they're--and let's take the worst case scenario here--arrogant dickhead bastards with no goddamn sense, doesn't mean they deserve to die.

But if they attack people physically on a darkened street then their risk of dying is much, much greater. This was the case of two people who let their egos and pride get the better of themselves and escalate a situation where nothing had to happen. Had Zimmerman follow directions things would have gone okay. Had Martin not approached Zimmerman and instead just left (or called the cops) things would have turned out okay. But both people - on the phone with others, by the way - acted in a way that was diametrically opposed to how they should have.

Mar 26, 2012#134

ElJuski

When my student doesn't bring in his homework, he's partly to blame when I break his fucking fingers.

Mar 26, 2012#135

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
holy shit I can't believe that you are blaming Martin and calling him macho for getting shot

I'm calling him a macho idiot for supposedly confronting and attacking the guy following him in the dark instead of calling the police or finding a safe & well-lit place or going home. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I'm not wrong.

Mar 26, 2012#136

ElJuski

Well I mean derr, Dave, I get it. People make mistakes. I think that's a stupid argument that gets in the way of the fact a kid was murdered.

Mar 26, 2012#137

Dave

ElJuski said:
When my student doesn't bring in his homework, he's partly to blame when I break his fucking fingers.

If your student punches you in the face and starts to ram your head into the floor and you break his fucking fingers? What then? Physically attacking someone =/= not doing homework. But nice strawman.

Mar 26, 2012#138

ElJuski

And, Dave, I think what's causing as much contention seems to be that people are reading your statement as "the kid was dumb and he deserved it". I can go with you halfway. The kid had better options. I am staunchly opposed to the second half, if that's what you're saying.

Mar 26, 2012#139

ElJuski

Dave said:
If your student punches you in the face and starts to ram your head into the floor and you break his fucking fingers? What then? Physically attacking someone =/= not doing homework. But nice strawman.

I get help or put him in a restraint because I'm a fucking adult. Because these sorts of situations happen at my school on a pretty regular basis. I don't murder the kid.

Mar 26, 2012#140

Krisken

Dave said:
But if they attack people physically on a darkened street then their risk of dying is much, much greater. This was the case of two people who let their egos and pride get the better of themselves and escalate a situation where nothing had to happen. Had Zimmerman follow directions things would have gone okay.

This is where I have a problem, Dave. Full STOP here. Kids are especially dumb. The watch captain, having been given directions by authorities which would have prevented escalation, instead escalated matters on his own.

Mar 26, 2012#141

ElJuski

And yes, that's my point. "Appropriate response =/= shooting someone". Thank you.

Mar 26, 2012#142

PotaDOS

You know how if you park your car in a parking space that belongs to you, and some drunken asshole blazes through and bangs up your vehicle, your insurance company will raise your rates because it was your fault you parked it where a drunken driver might slam into it?

Sorry, Dave, but your argument isn't much better than that. There is no scenario where stalking a guy while carrying a loaded weapon just because they're "looking suspicious" (also known as wearing a hoodie) is ok. It might not have been the smartest thing to turn around, but really, I can't see why you're blaming the dead guy.

Mar 26, 2012#143

Chippy

Kid. Dead kid.

Mar 26, 2012#144

makare

I still disagree with Dave completely. Also, just as a nitpick they can't BOTH be a 100% responsible. If they are equal parts responsible it would be 50% at least as far as calculating negligence and damages goes.

I say Travyon acted completely reasonably and is not at fault in any way. Just because there was something that would have been a BETTER move doesn't mean what he did was wrong. Shooting someone you have been stalking like an animal is wrong.. pretty much always wrong. Even the cops can't get away with that one under most circumstances.

Mar 26, 2012#145

Dave

I'm saying that it's as much his fault as the other guy's. Zimmerman is a fucking moron, but until physically attacked I doubt he'd have done anything. As it stands, he was getting beaten and he panicked as untrained people carrying weapons do. When people carrying have no training, that's when stupid shit like this happens. Zimmerman overreacted, but he didn't just run the kid down in cold blood. The kid felt the need to escalate a situation that didn't need to be. He has to shoulder some of the blame for this by starting the physical side of it.

Zimmerman will either (a) get off with a self defense or (b) be charged with manslaughter. Personally, I think it should be (b) as he had no right carrying the weapon in the first place and he disobeyed a direct order from the 911 operator to stand down and let the real authorities handle it. In fact, I don't see (a) as much of a possibility due to the damning evidence of the initial 911 call.

DO I think Martin deserved to die? Of course not! Do I think he had any reasonable reason to think he might be shot attacking a stranger in the night? That's a bit more murky. You don't attack ANYONE without accepting some of the consequences.

Mar 26, 2012#146

Dave

makare said:
I say Travyon acted completely reasonably and is not at fault in any way. Just because there was something that would have been a BETTER move doesn't mean what he did was wrong. Shooting someone you have been stalking like an animal is wrong.. pretty much always wrong. Even the cops can't get away with that one under most circumstances.

You think Martin acted 100% reasonably? You, madam, are [redacted to fit in the rules of the board].

And I said 100% for both because I don't know the exact percentages and they both acted irresponsibly.

Mar 26, 2012#147

sixpackshaker

I wish that the media would quit calling Zimmerman "The Neighborhood Watch Captain" he was none of those things. He was just a douche that was really obsessed with crime. Who would drive around the neighborhood calling in "suspicious people." It never turned out to be anyone committing a crime either.

Also "We don't need you to be doing that," is not a command. A command is "Stop following that kid. We have a cruiser on the way."

Mar 26, 2012#148

makare

I think dave just likes using the term 100%.

Mar 26, 2012#149

Officer_Charon

Some dispatch supervisors don't like the dispatchers giving orders to complainants, as they have dubious legal authority to issue a citizen orders... sixpackshaker raises a very salient point, that may end up being part of the defense strategy.

Mar 26, 2012#150

Null

So the lesson is, if you don't want to get shot by an over-reacting vigilante, don't be a black kid in a hoodie.

Mar 26, 2012#151

makare

I feel bad for the dispatcher then. Hope he/she isn't held responsible I mean it sucks that this guy was a nut who needed the "hey stop being a lunatic" written out for him but I think it wasn't unreasonable for the dispatcher not to think that.

I realize that is kind of confusing. I can't really explain what I mean very well about that issue.

Mar 26, 2012#152

Frank

Null said:
So the lesson is, if you don't want to get shot by an over-reacting vigilante, don't be a black kid in a hoodie.

Yeah, it's an awesome message to send. It's basically the same thing as Geraldo telling women to knock it off with all that pesky having vaginas nonsense if they wanna avoid rape.

Mar 26, 2012#153

fade

I'm not the first to make the comparison, but this is sounding an awful lot like "she was raped because she was asking for it with those clothes".

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Mar 26, 2012#154

sixpackshaker

Null said:
So the lesson is, if you don't want to get shot by an over-reacting vigilante, don't be a black kid in a hoodie.

And don't punch an armed stranger in the nose.

Mar 26, 2012#155

Chippy

yeah, fuck that scared teenaged kid for acting like a scared teenage kid

Mar 26, 2012#156

Null

Frank said:
Yeah, it's an awesome message to send. It's basically the same thing as Geraldo telling women to knock it off with all that pesky having vaginas nonsense if they wanna avoid rape.

That's pretty much how I meant it, yeah.

Mar 26, 2012#157

Frank

Again the problem with our society, we focus almost entirely on don't get raped rather than on the don't rape aspect.

I shouldn't say THE problem but rather A problem.

Mar 26, 2012#158

Dave

fade said:
I'm not the first to make the comparison, but this is sounding an awful lot like "she was raped because she was asking for it with those clothes".

Yeah, they're exactly the same thing. :rolleyes:

Mar 26, 2012#159

Frank

Dave said:
Yeah, they're exactly the same thing.

When he's referring to Geraldo blaming it on hoodies, it's very similar.

Mar 26, 2012#160

SeraRelm

Dave, I agree with you 100% if what we've heard about the altercation holds true. Its like running into traffic and getting hit. They should have swerved, but you ran in.

Mar 26, 2012#161

Dave

Frank said:
When he's referring to Geraldo blaming it on hoodies, it's very similar.

Gotcha. I thought it was leveled at me.

Mar 26, 2012#162

Frank

Dave said:
Gotcha. I thought it was leveled at me.

I take it back, he may have been. I missed the entire 4th page of posts.

Mar 26, 2012#163

figmentPez

PotaDOS said:
You know how if you park your car in a parking space that belongs to you, and some drunken asshole blazes through and bangs up your vehicle, your insurance company will raise your rates because it was your fault you parked it where a drunken driver might slam into it?

Sorry, Dave, but your argument isn't much better than that. There is no scenario where stalking a guy while carrying a loaded weapon just because they're "looking suspicious" (also known as wearing a hoodie) is ok. It might not have been the smartest thing to turn around, but really, I can't see why you're blaming the dead guy.

There is nothing wrong with parking in a designated parking space. That is not a foolish choice to make. Confronting someone who is stalking you is not a wise decision. A more apt parking comparison would be parking on the shoulder of a busy highway, when there are other parking spaces available. If a drunk plows into your car when you parked someplace unwise, that doesn't absolve you of the foolishness of poor parking. The guilt of bad parking choices does not mean you deserve to have your car destroyed, but you're still foolish to park there no matter what happens afterwards. The two things are not actually related. Even though the car would not have been destroyed by the drunk driver if it had been parked in a designated spot, and not just on the side of the road, that is not the cause of the destruction, and the destruction does not negate foolishness in parking.

Mar 26, 2012#164

fade

Wasn't really leveled at anyone specific. Just at the whole idea that this kid brought it on himself by doing what he did.

Mar 26, 2012#165

Mathias

Dave said:
I'm saying that it's as much his fault as the other guy's. Zimmerman is a fucking moron, but until physically attacked I doubt he'd have done anything. As it stands, he was getting beaten and he panicked as untrained people carrying weapons do. When people carrying have no training, that's when stupid shit like this happens. Zimmerman overreacted, but he didn't just run the kid down in cold blood. The kid felt the need to escalate a situation that didn't need to be. He has to shoulder some of the blame for this by starting the physical side of it.

Zimmerman will either (a) get off with a self defense or (b) be charged with manslaughter. Personally, I think it should be (b) as he had no right carrying the weapon in the first place and he disobeyed a direct order from the 911 operator to stand down and let the real authorities handle it. In fact, I don't see (a) as much of a possibility due to the damning evidence of the initial 911 call.

DO I think Martin deserved to die? Of course not! Do I think he had any reasonable reason to think he might be shot attacking a stranger in the night? That's a bit more murky. You don't attack ANYONE without accepting some of the consequences.

I agree that Martin did not act responsibly. He was a 15 year old kid! They're all dipshits! Zimmerman is the adult in the situation and is 100% responsible for what happened.

Mar 26, 2012#166

figmentPez

Frank said:
Again the problem with our society, we focus almost entirely on don't get raped rather than on the don't rape aspect.

I shouldn't say THE problem but rather A problem.

Ah, I like your edit (glad it showed up when I went to quote your post.)

We also focus a lot on "don't get robbed" instead of "don't steal". There's far more invested in the sale of door locks, home safes and other stuff than there is in campaigns to tell people not to steal.

Mar 26, 2012#167

ElJuski

because you're an idiot if you get robbed, you idiot

Mar 26, 2012#168

Dave

Attacking someone and getting shot =/= being the victim of a robbery.

I'm done. You guys all can make up your minds without a thorough investigation. Me? I'm waiting until the facts of the case are in. Because none of us know them right now.

Mar 26, 2012#169

ElJuski

lol nice out

Mar 26, 2012#170

ElJuski

so anyways, let's make this more productive: What are the reasonable circumstances for shooting and murdering an unarmed teenager?

Discuss.

Mar 26, 2012#171

Azurephoenix

ElJuski said:
so anyways, let's make this more productive: What are the reasonable circumstances for shooting and murdering an unarmed teenager?

Discuss.

Wow... just... wow...

Mar 26, 2012#172

Null

Well, first you need to stalk him for a while.

Mar 26, 2012#173

ElJuski

I've got one: if he's turning into a monster.

Mar 26, 2012#174

Hailey Knight

ElJuski said:
so anyways, let's make this more productive: What are the reasonable circumstances for shooting and murdering an unarmed teenager?

Discuss.

You're tricking me into liking you again. It won't work this time. I mean it!

Mar 26, 2012#175

ElJuski

Quotemander Prime said:
You're tricking me into liking you again. It won't work this time. I mean it!

All you have to do is segway the topic into memes and good posting, and we can get back into this hate business once more.

Mar 26, 2012#176

strawman

Dave said:
I'm saying that it's as much his fault as the other guy's.

There's a law in that state that says if you are being threatened you are allowed to use force to protect yourself. Martin perhaps should have kept walking, but he didn't half to. If he threw the first punch, then he started an altercation that he only realized was dangerous when zimmerman pulled a gun. At that point I doubt anything could have helped him, because suddenly zimmerman started using that law.

If Zimmerman pushed him first, then he started the altercation.

In the end I feel like the teacher, "I don't care who was following who and who punched who first. You're both suspended!"

It's obvious that a series of seemingly innocuous bad choices were made on both sides, and it ended badly. It's not illegal to follow someone. It's not illegal to evade someone. It's not illegal to approach someone. It's not illegal to taunt or question someone. It's not illegal to ignore questions, respond with your own, or get really close and shout at someone.

At some point someone crossed the line, and someone else followed suit and the situation spun out of control. Unfortunately the victor often gets to rewrite history.

While he may have been stupid, he may have had every right to defend himself if he thought this larger guy presented a threat to him. If you're faced with a bigger guy who's been chasing you for awhile you don't pull your punches. You get in, disable him, and get out.

I don't know enough about the case to say one way or the other, but if you're going to speculate that he was wrong, then you might as well explore the idea that he might have had no better choice.

Mar 26, 2012#177

Soliloquy

Here's a news release from the Sanford, Florida City Manager. I get the sinking feeling that Zimmerman's not going to be arrested, considering the following excerpts:

when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “Are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “Yes”. The call taker stated “You don’t need to do that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.

That said, Zimmerman confronting someone who was simply walking down the street was extremely stupid on his part. If Zimmerman didn't shoot the kid after being hurt, Martin might have gotten off with self defense as well, seeing as a big guy who had been stalking him suddenly left his car and confronted him.

Self defense laws are a tricky thing -- often, they only require you to reasonably believe that you are in danger for them to be considered self defense.

Also:

Mathias said:
I agree that Martin did not act responsibly. He was a 15 year old kid! They're all dipshits! Zimmerman is the adult in the situation and is 100% responsible for what happened.

Just thought I'd add that apparently Martin was 17 (I'm also hearing allegations that the photos that were given to the media are around 3-5 years old, but that's only from fringe right-wing sites so far.) It doesn't make what Zimmerman did any less horrific (nor does it take Martin out of the "dipshit" age group) but the difference between being beaten by a 15-year-old and being beaten by a 17-year-old is probably significant as far as the laws applied are concerned (reasonable belief and all that). Your point still stands, though. You can't expect a scared young kid to keep a level head after being stalked and then confronted by a large man.

Mar 26, 2012#178

Mathias

I don't get it. A kid is dead for doing... nothing... I don't care how the fight between them started. Zimmerman is the reason for it because he ignored what 911 told him to do, and freaking instigated the whole thing.

Say you have a situation where someone spots a car driving recklessly in front of them (not even a good analogy because Martin was doing nothing suspicious), and they report it to 911. 911 tells them not to follow the car, and that police are on their way. That person ignores 911 and follows the car ahead closely. The car speeds up. The person reporting speeds up to keep up. The car is now driving more recklessly to evade its pursuer, and ends up T-boning another car at an intersection. The person who followed the car in the first place instigated the accident. Zimmerman instigated the reaction from Martin, and then shot him.

Zimmerman is a murderer.

Mar 26, 2012#179

Soliloquy

Mathias said:
I don't get it. A kid is dead for doing... nothing... I don't care how the fight between them started. Zimmerman is the reason for it because he ignored what 911 told him to do, and freaking instigated the whole thing.

Say you have a situation where someone spots a car driving recklessly in front of them (not even a good analogy because Martin was doing nothing suspicious), and they report it to 911. 911 tells them not to follow the car, and that police are on their way. That person ignores 911 and follows the car ahead closely. The car speeds up. The person reporting speeds up to keep up. The car is now driving more recklessly to evade its pursuer, and ends up T-boning another car at an intersection. The person who followed the car in the first place instigated the accident. Zimmerman instigated the reaction from Martin, and then shot him.

Zimmerman is a murderer.

The thing is, he wasn't told "don't follow him," he was told "you don't have to follow him," which has completely different connotations.

It doesn't change that he killed an unarmed kid. It does mean that there is a lot less of a reason to arrest him.

Mar 26, 2012#180

strawman

Mathias said:
The person who followed the car in the first place instigated the accident.

But that person would not be in trouble. That's the difficulty with this type of situation. What he did was wrong - bottom line.

But what law would you create that would make what he did illegal? Think carefully - a lot of other people have, and so far no one has a better idea.

Maybe you can crack the code.

Mar 26, 2012#181

SeraRelm

Mathias said:
doing... nothing... .

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16000239

knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground

Mar 26, 2012#182

SeraRelm

stienman said:
Martin perhaps should have kept walking, but he didn't half to.

stienman said:
but he didn't half to.

stienman said:
half to

Mar 26, 2012#183

Yoshimickster

Trayvon's murderer is the kind of guy who get's killed on episodes of Case Closed. And then we here the murderer's sad reasoning for doing such.

Mar 26, 2012#184

Krisken

Mar 26, 2012#185

checkeredhat

Punch guy who pulls gun on you in nose: not self defense.
Shoot guy who punched you in the nose after you pulled a gun on him: self defense?

Mar 26, 2012#186

Yoshimickster

Man, this is like Bernie Goetz all over again. Only there is UNDENIABLE PROOF that the guy killed simply for murder.

Mar 26, 2012#187

Adammon

Chippy said:
Probs because checkered already went through your post with his rebuttal. And using "possession of mj" to make a guy seem dangerous is lolworthy.

But naw you're shaking your head. We are the stupid ones and you are the enlightened intelligent person in a sea of idiots

It wasn't to make him seem dangerous, it was to make him seem a little unlike this sweet innocent 15 year old that the media is making him out to be (and some posters here).

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-rep...re-of-trayvon-martin-20120326,0,7098615.story

"Trayvon, who claimed that an unnamed friend had given him the jewelry, was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald."

A good example of that? Here's the photos that the media are using to sell this story.

Zimmerman from booking photo on left, 5 year old picture of Martin on right.

Zimmerman picture:

Martin recent picture:

Why "sell this story"? $$$

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

MARCH 26--The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show. Sybrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon,” according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton, 46, is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products.

Martin approached Zimmerman, not the other way around.

Zimmerman said he was walking back to his SUV when Martin approached him from behind, according to the Sentinel's report, which Sanford police confirmed Monday afternoon.

Is any of this 'true'? We'll never know. But this garbage about "It's obvious who's in the wrong here." is patently NOT true.

I'm not calling anyone stupid, I'm saying that to presume guilt based on, so far, a very one-sided emotional argument isn't entirely clever.

Mar 26, 2012#188

SeraRelm

But he had a gun and the kid was black, he's obviously an insane racist bent on genocide.

Mar 26, 2012#189

Adammon

Hey, police report here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

Mar 26, 2012#190

Krisken

Ok, this keeps getting glossed over, and it is very, very annoying.

There is about a one-minute gap between when Zimmerman made the 911 call and when he came face-to-face with Martin that police say they're not sure what happened.

THIS is where I have a problem. THIS is why I can't side with the shooter. There is a full minute where anything could have been said by either person.

Mar 26, 2012#191

Adammon

Krisken said:
Ok, this keeps getting glossed over, and it is very, very annoying.

THIS is where I have a problem. THIS is why I can't side with the shooter. There is a full minute where anything could have been said by either person.

Don't side with anyone? Let the justice system take its course.

Mar 26, 2012#192

makare

We can still have opinions on the case. The justice system doesn't work in a bubble.

Mar 26, 2012#193

Adammon

makare said:
We can still have opinions on the case. The justice system doesn't work in a bubble.

Fair enough. "Siding" suggests predisposition towards one person or another; which I suppose in a situation like this where you have one side with their opinion and the other side dead is impossible to avoid.

Mar 26, 2012#194

Krisken

Adammon said:
Fair enough. "Siding" suggests predisposition towards one person or another; which I suppose in a situation like this where you have one side with their opinion and the other side dead is impossible to avoid.

It means, I'm not instantly taking the guy at his word. There is a full minute where he isn't divulging what was said or what happened, why he got out of his car, how he ended up face to face with the kid. The whole thing smells kind of fishy.

Mar 26, 2012#195

Adammon

Krisken said:
It means, I'm not instantly taking the guy at his word. There is a full minute where he isn't divulging what was said or what happened, why he got out of his car, how he ended up face to face with the kid. The whole thing smells kind of fishy.

I think Zimmerman's not telling the whole truth about the altercation and how he ended up on the ground with Trayvon punching him and bashing his head into the ground. Is it the difference between murder and manslaughter?

Oh, and just a quick clarification. That mugshot of Zimmerman I posted above is from 2005, not recent. Not sure why the media is using a 7 year old picture of him...

Mar 26, 2012#196

Jay

How does a kid get to punch & manhandle a guy who's well over 100 pounds heavier than him? Bullshit.

One thing is for sure, Zimmerman's a dead man, regardless on what the outcome of this is unless he is shipped somewhere completely under the radar.... like Montana.

Mar 26, 2012#197

Adammon

Jay said:
How does a kid get to punch & manhandle a guy who's well over 100 pounds heavier than him? Bullshit.

One thing is for sure, Zimmerman's a dead man, regardless on what the outcome of this is unless he is shipped somewhere completely under the radar.... like Montana.

6'3 , 170lb football playing 17 year old punches a 5'9 200lb loan underwriter in the face and manhandles him and you call bullshit? Strange.

Mar 26, 2012#198

GasBandit

In this thread, perhaps even moreso than any other, even on the internet... people have already made up their mind about the topic, and nothing will dissuade. Nothing.

Meanwhile, more teenagers are killed every day, and yet the national stage doesn't trumpet them for some reason.

None of you guys better make a joke about "stop the presses, a pretty white girl is missing" in the future and not feel like such a grand hypocrite.

Mar 26, 2012#199

Adammon

GasBandit said:
In this thread, perhaps even moreso than any other, even on the internet... people have already made up their mind about the topic, and nothing will dissuade. Nothing.

Meanwhile, more teenagers are killed every day, and yet the national stage doesn't trumpet them for some reason.

None of you guys better make a joke about "stop the presses, a pretty white girl is missing" in the future and not feel like such a grand hypocrite.

Like say: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/student-shot-dead-mississippi-state-university-054223724.html

A student was shot to death at a Mississippi State University residence hall late on Saturday night, authorities said, adding that three suspects remained at large.
The unidentified student was reported shot at Evans Hall shortly after 11 p.m. local time, university officials said.
Authorities described the suspects as three black males who fled the hall in a late model blue Crown Victoria car.
There were no immediate reports of further injuries and the university is operating on "emergency" status, officials said.

Mar 26, 2012#200

Jay

So what I understood is that Zimmerman (who claims to be a part of an unofficial Neighborhood Watch) follows Trayvon for a period of time and confirms on the phone that the teen is well aware of this. Eventually, the man actually approached the teen up close and began to bluntly demand answers from him. Zimmerman then claims he was sucker punched as he reached for his cellphone and this is KEY.

Meanwhile Trayvon, a kid in his own neighborhood, had no idea he was being suspected of wrong doing. In his eyes he was followed and accosted by a large and angry stranger who then began to reach into his pocket for something.

Put yourself in the poor kid's situation. How many of you can say you wouldn't assume it was a gun or knife of some sort? It was an act of desperation. Dumb as fuck but hey, kids.
Zimmerman created this horrible situation and deserves all of the culpability and once again proves that 2nd amendment is a dumb as fuck right to give to the masses of the mundane.

Mar 26, 2012#201

Adammon

Jay said:
So what I understood is that Zimmerman (who claims to be a part of an unofficial Neighborhood Watch) follows Trayvon for a period of time and confirms on the phone that the teen is well aware of this. Eventually, the man actually approached the teen up close and began to bluntly demand answers from him. Zimmerman then claims he was sucker punched as he reached for his cellphone and this is KEY.

Meanwhile Trayvon, a kid in his own neighborhood, had no idea he was being suspected of wrong doing. In his eyes he was followed and accosted by a large and angry stranger who then began to reach into his pocket for something.

Put yourself in the poor kid's situation. How many of you can say you wouldn't assume it was a gun or knife of some sort? It was an act of desperation. Dumb as fuck but hey, kids.
Zimmerman created this horrible situation and deserves all of the culpability and once again proves that 2nd amendment is a dumb as fuck right to give to the masses of the mundane.

Trayvon wasn't in his own neighborhood. He was staying with his dad and his dad's girlfriend after being suspended from school for 10 days for drug possession. But yes, a series of misunderstandings can result in dire consequences.

Mar 26, 2012#202

Jay

Adammon said:
6'3 , 170lb football playing 17 year old punches a 5'9 200lb loan underwriter in the face and manhandles him and you call bullshit? Strange.

The kid was only 140 pounds. Get the facts straight before you post.

Mar 26, 2012#203

Jay

Adammon said:
Trayvon wasn't in his own neighborhood. He was staying with his dad and his dad's girlfriend after being suspended from school for 10 days for drug possession. But yes, a series of misunderstandings can result in dire consequences.

Mar 26, 2012#204

Adammon

He lived with his mom.

Mar 26, 2012#205

makare

GasBandit said:
In this thread, perhaps even moreso than any other, even on the internet... people have already made up their mind about the topic, and nothing will dissuade. Nothing.

Meanwhile, more teenagers are killed every day, and yet the national stage doesn't trumpet them for some reason.

None of you guys better make a joke about "stop the presses, a pretty white girl is missing" in the future and not feel like such a grand hypocrite.

What does the fact that not every crime is treated with the same notoriety have to do with anything?

Mar 26, 2012#206

Adammon

Jay said:
The kid was only 140 pounds. Get the facts straight before you post.

Ok once again, here's the police report: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

Trayvon is listed at 160.

Mar 26, 2012#207

Jay

Adammon said:
Oh, and just a quick clarification. That mugshot of Zimmerman I posted above is from 2005, not recent. Not sure why the media is using a 7 year old picture of him...

sigh.... and that is not a mugshot. He only had the misfortune to wear orange during his driver's license renewal....notice the lack of height stripes behind him.

Adammon said:

A BLACK KID IS WEARING HOODIE. GAAAAAGNSTA. WATCH OUT. Charlie, is this your alt account?

"Martin approached Zimmerman, not the other way around."

Click to expand...

So claims the survivor of the altercation.

Listen, before I lose my patience and say something I regret.... get your facts straight and look at the whole thing objectively.

The kid wasn't an angel nor I expect him to be some poor victim but he's dead with nothing but a bag of skittles in his pockets and he can't tell his side of a story that clearly indicated that he was accosted without reason in the streets.

So, if I don't shave for a couple days and show up in Miami to visit friends and lose myself going back home after buying some skittles and iced tea, should I expect a fat self-cop wearing a piece to get out of his SUV and start screaming at me to ask me what I'm doing?

It's ridiculous.

It's murder.

And Americans once again prove that the 2nd amendment is a dip shit right.

Mar 26, 2012#208

Adammon

Jay said:
sigh.... and that is not a mugshot. He only had the misfortune to wear orange during his driver's license renewal....notice the lack of height stripes behind him.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...rman-said-he-was-knocked-to-ground-and-beaten

"George Zimmerman, in a 2005 mug shot provided by the Orange County (Fla.) jail, via The Miami Herald.""

I am posting facts Jay. If you don't like it, I'm sorry, but it doesn't change what they are.

Mar 26, 2012#209

Krisken

makare said:
What does the fact that not every crime is treated with the same notoriety have to do with anything?

He's saying that we only care because the kid was black. You know, he's playing the 'poor white people' card.

I'd also like to know how Trayvon pulled the guy out of his car. Obviously that is what occurred since he 'approached Zimmerman, not the other way around'.

Mar 26, 2012#210

Jay

Incidentally, the official Neighborhood Watch manual says, and this is a direct quote: "it should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles."

IMO

Hispanic guy follows the kid around, then approaches him in a hostile way and starts barking as the kid, probably flashing his piece, then puts his hand in his pocket, the kid freaks out and tries to defend himself and takes him down, guy grabs his gun and shoots him in the chest.

The black kid got trolled hard.

All he wanted was his ice tea and skittles and get back to his basketball game.

Love how it took the cops 3 days to identify him, especially when they had his cell phone and his contact info was at hand.

Pathetic.

Mar 26, 2012#211

Adammon

Krisken said:
He's saying that we only care because the kid was black. You know, he's playing the 'poor white people' card.

I'd also like to know how Trayvon pulled the guy out of his car. Obviously that is what occurred since he 'approached Zimmerman, not the other way around'.

From the 'official' record, Zimmerman was walking back to his car when he was accosted, and was not pulled out of the car. I have my doubts that he was that innocent.

Mar 26, 2012#212

Shegokigo

Would that be before or after he dealt the drugs he was busted with the week before Jay? :troll:

Mar 26, 2012#213

Jay

Shegokigo said:
Would that be before or after he dealt the drugs he was busted with the week before Jay?

Was that before or after you became a lesbian?

As inaccurate your quote may be, as he was never charged as such, it's quite irrelevant.

BTW my opinion doesn't matter because I smoked pot when I was a teenager and I had sex with a 15 year old girl when I was 17. My favorite color is also burgundy.

Mar 26, 2012#214

Krisken

Jay said:
Incidentally, the official Neighborhood Watch manual says, and this is a direct quote: "it should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles."

IMO

Hispanic guy follows the kid around, then approaches him in a hostile way and starts barking as the kid, probably flashing his piece, then puts his hand in his pocket, the kid freaks out and tries to defend himself and takes him down, guy grabs his gun and shoots him in the chest.

The black kid got trolled hard.

All he wanted was his ice tea and skittles and get back to his basketball game.

Love how it took the cops 3 days to identify him, especially when they had his cell phone and his contact info was at hand.

Pathetic.

The way I see it, Zimmerman got out and acted tough, the kid turned back and threatened him, the guy turned around to get away, the kid attacked him (he's a stupid kid, duh), and the guy pulled the gun and shot him, desperate to end the fight.

Mar 26, 2012#215

Soliloquy

Krisken said:
He's saying that we only care because the kid was black. You know, he's playing the 'poor white people' card.

Just to play Devil's advocate, did you hear anything about today's blatant racial hate crime that ended in the death of a mother of five?

Mar 26, 2012#216

GasBandit

Well, the feds are investigating it now, so we can all rest assured that Eric Cantor will get results. He'll walk guns to the black panthers, shield them from any prosecution for the murder of american citizens, then call for stricter gun control laws.

Mar 26, 2012#217

Krisken

Soliloquy said:
Just to play Devil's advocate, did you hear anything about today's blatant racial hate crime that ended in the death of a mother of five?

I did not. Want to fill me in so I can know about it?

Mar 26, 2012#218

Adammon

Who is screaming for help in this video? (Chilling)

One shot.

If it's George screaming, it may corroborate his story about fighting and defending himself. If it's Trayvon, George is a murderer, very simply.

Mar 26, 2012#219

makare

Soliloquy said:
Just to play Devil's advocate, did you hear anything about today's blatant racial hate crime that ended in the death of a mother of five?

what the.... how is that playing devil's advocate?

Mar 26, 2012#220

Krisken

makare said:
what the.... how is that playing devil's advocate?

The guy who shot the woman was a Satanist.

Mar 26, 2012#221

Shegokigo

Jay you know I was just trying to be a smartass, no worries. Noone here wants to hear my actual opinion on this subject, hence why I've stayed quiet on the whole thing.

Mar 26, 2012#222

Jay

Krisken said:
The way I see it, Zimmerman got out and acted tough, the kid turned back and threatened him, the guy turned around to get away, the kid attacked him (he's a stupid kid, duh), and the guy pulled the gun and shot him, desperate to end the fight.

Good point and I completely agree.

This probably happened.

Mar 26, 2012#223

Soliloquy

makare said:
what the.... how is that playing devil's advocate?

Well, this story here is getting almost no press. An Iraqi mother of five was killed in LA and a note was found near her body saying "Go back to Iraq." The killers are still on the loose.

Granted, it's not the same type of case point-for-point (we don't know who the killer is, it's a woman not a kid, etc.), but it seems odd the amount of press dedicated to a blatant hate crime is so nonexistant.

Mar 26, 2012#224

Adammon

GasBandit said:
Well, the feds are investigating it now, so we can all rest assured that Eric Cantor will get results. He'll walk guns to the black panthers, shield them from any prosecution for the murder of american citizens, then call for stricter gun control laws.

Holder, not Cantor

Mar 26, 2012#225

Adammon

Jay said:
Good point and I completely agree.

This probably happened.

I agree as well.

Mar 26, 2012#226

makare

Soliloquy said:
Well, this story here is getting almost no press. An Iraqi mother of five was killed in LA and a note was found near her body saying "Go back to Iraq." The killers are still on the loose.

Granted, it's not the same type of case point-for-point (we don't know who the killer is, it's a woman not a kid, etc.), but it seems odd the amount of press dedicated to a blatant hate crime is so nonexistant.

Yes but to play devil's advocate means that you take and support a view that you don't actually hold. I don't understand how that is happening here.

Mar 26, 2012#227

Krisken

Soliloquy said:
Well, this story here is getting almost no press. An Iraqi mother of five was killed in LA and a note was found near her body saying "Go back to Iraq." The killers are still on the loose.

Granted, it's not the same type of case point-for-point (we don't know who the killer is, it's a woman not a kid, etc.), but it seems odd the amount of press dedicated to a blatant hate crime is so nonexistant.

That's horrible and should get a lot of press as well. I hope the prick responsible gets what is coming to him/her.

Mar 26, 2012#228

Soliloquy

Krisken said:
That's horrible and should get a lot of press as well. I hope the prick responsible gets what is coming to him/her.

Seriously, I hope this gets solved soon.

Mar 26, 2012#229

Soliloquy

makare said:
Yes but to play devil's advocate means that you take and support a view that you don't actually hold. I don't understand how that is happening here.

One could argue that it's the Black community's cries of racism that is getting the Zimmerman case so much press. Personally I think it's because it was an unarmed kid was killed and we know who the killer is yet he's not arrested, and the same press-coverage situation would be happening no matter what the race was of the person killed, but the whole "blatant-hate-crime-against-Iraqi overshadowed by not-so-blatant-black-hate-crime" thing could be seen the other way as well.

Mar 26, 2012#230

Soliloquy

Jay said:
Good point and I completely agree.

This probably happened.

If that's what happened, then what's happening in Addamon's video indicates that Zimmerman was being beaten for a good 30 seconds before resorting to shooting the kid.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a Coroner's report that shows whether Martin was also injured in any way besides the gunshot wound. If not, then it seems unlikely that it was Martin who was yelling.

Mar 26, 2012#231

SeraRelm

That's because racism only counts against black people and all iraqi are terrorists, so who cares? :troll:

(Did I used the troll face right?)

Mar 27, 2012#232

SeraRelm

Also

Mar 27, 2012#233

Krisken

SeraRelm said:
That's because racism only counts against black people and all iraqi are terrorists, so who cares?

(Did I used the troll face right?)

Is that what that face is? I wouldn't know, they all look the same to me.

Mar 27, 2012#234

SeraRelm

:O RACIST!

Mar 27, 2012#235

tegid

I'm sorry but the only thing that seems clear to me from this thread is that... Wtf you have waaay too many guns in your country, do something about that 2nd ammendment.

I know I'm not saying anything new, but MY GOD it's so blatant and still as a country you don't get it.

Mar 27, 2012#236

ElJuski

Just as an aside, this thread just proves that many of you know nothing about black culture and current conditions of racial prejudice. And that's kind of a bummer.

Mar 27, 2012#237

Mathias

ElJuski said:
Just as an aside, this thread just proves that many of you know nothing about black culture and current conditions of racial prejudice. And that's kind of a bummer.

agreed

now tell us all again how you work in the ghetto with inner city children, and make a difference, damn it! Have you found the lead boy to turn the entire class yet, michelle pfeiffer?

Mar 27, 2012#238

Mathias

A splendid documentary celebrating the career of Juski:

He knows black culture like it's nobodies biniz.

Mar 27, 2012#239

D

Dubyamn

Soliloquy said:
One could argue that it's the Black community's cries of racism that is getting the Zimmerman case so much press. Personally I think it's because it was an unarmed kid was killed and we know who the killer is yet he's not arrested, and the same press-coverage situation would be happening no matter what the race was of the person killed, but the whole "blatant-hate-crime-against-Iraqi overshadowed by not-so-blatant-black-hate-crime" thing could be seen the other way as well.

You do realize that the anger coming out is against the police response right? Where the police came up onto the scene where a latino man had shot and killed a 17 year old black kid, didn't bother to test the shooter's BAV or if he was under the influence of drugs, corrected a witness's statement about the victim calling out for help, didn't even bother interviewing the shooter and then let the killer walk free declaring it self defense. Had the police done a compotent investigation and put Zimmerman on trial there would be no story. But they didn't and the media has only recently picked up the story despite the fact that it has now been a month since the killing and only a day since the woman was killed.

In a month when the police have bought the claim of the woman's killer that he/she acted in self defense and let them walk free your point won't be an idiot smoke screen. Till then ...

Mar 27, 2012#240

Charlie Don't Surf

It's really funny to me how nearly each and every foreigner looks at the United States' gun culture with a "WHAT THE FUCK" type or response.

Mar 27, 2012#241

checkeredhat

Charlie Don't Surf said:
It's really funny to me how nearly each and every foreigner looks at the United States' gun culture with a "WHAT THE FUCK" type or response.

I think foreigners just tend to look at any other nation with that kind of response. People are always convinced their way is the right way.

Mar 27, 2012#242

Charlie Don't Surf

checkeredhat said:
I think foreigners just tend to look at any other nation with that kind of response. People are always convinced their way is the right way.

I wish the US was more like Socialist Europe in some respects

Mar 27, 2012#243

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I wish the US was more like Socialist Europe in some respects

No! Really? I'd never have guessed!

Mar 27, 2012#244

GasBandit

ElJuski said:
Just as an aside, this thread just proves that many of you know nothing about black culture and current conditions of racial prejudice. And that's kind of a bummer.

What, you and the Doctor Biologist over there are totally hip to the streets?

Mar 27, 2012#245

SeraRelm

How is that promotion and move coming along? Any word yet?

Mar 27, 2012#246

tegid

checkeredhat said:
I think foreigners just tend to look at any other nation with that kind of response. People are always convinced their way is the right way.

I'm usually not like that. Or less than most people, at least. I guess the problem comes from trying to look at the gun thing as a problem which has a right or wrong solution and not as a cultural thing (the difference being that one HAS a correct, logical answer, while the other doesn't). I can understand it as a cultural difference, whereas I haven't been convinced of most of the pro-gun arguments (and believe me, I can be convinced).

Mar 27, 2012#247

Charlie Don't Surf

SeraRelm said:
How is that promotion and move coming along? Any word yet?

Move would be temporary. And still floating in the wind.

Mar 27, 2012#248

checkeredhat

tegid said:
I'm usually not like that. Or less than most people, at least. I guess the problem comes from trying to look at the gun thing as a problem which has a right or wrong solution and not as a cultural thing (the difference being that one HAS a correct, logical answer, while the other doesn't). I can understand it as a cultural difference, whereas I haven't been convinced of most of the pro-gun arguments (and believe me, I can be convinced).

I did say tend to. I think most of the people here are pretty fairly open minded, but everyone has something they look at and go "That's WEIRD" just cause its not what they're used to. I don't even mean necessarily that its done with any hostility, it could be something as innocent as "They drive on the LEFT side of the road there and call elevators LIFTS. Weird." (Or vice versa, obvsiously. Which is my point)
This is obviously a case of something with much greater consequences, but the reason people outside the US tend to question it and the reason people in the US tend to defend it, is pretty simply, because its what they're used to.

Mar 27, 2012#249

makare

tegid said:
I'm usually not like that. Or less than most people, at least. I guess the problem comes from trying to look at the gun thing as a problem which has a right or wrong solution and not as a cultural thing (the difference being that one HAS a correct, logical answer, while the other doesn't). I can understand it as a cultural difference, whereas I haven't been convinced of most of the pro-gun arguments (and believe me, I can be convinced).

If it is a cultural thing there is just so much tied up into it it makes it nearly impossible for the people who part of the culture that want to change it to do so. The whole you dont love guns? = unamerican/unpatriotic etc crap really keeps anything from getting done. It is the same political guilt by association crap used for every other problem in the country that has rendered them unsolvable. It gets pretty damn tiresome.

Mar 27, 2012#250

SeraRelm

I usually think "I wonder what lead to that social convention?" If it isn't immediately apparent, then I look it up if I have the time (or try to remember to do so later).

Mar 27, 2012#251

Adammon

Witness claims George Zimmerman pinned Martin after shooting:
http://globalgrind.com/news/new-wit...pinned-trayvon-face-down-after-shooting-video

Witness claims Martin on top of Zimmerman before shooting:
http://newstalkcleveland.com/2289029/anonymous-witness-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/

Mar 27, 2012#252

makare

Damn witnesses.... better rack em until we get the TRUTH!

Mar 27, 2012#253

Charlie Don't Surf

Whew, good thing with have police officers to make sure the witnesses get the right story

Mar 27, 2012#254

Dave

makare said:
Damn witnesses.... better rack em until we get the TRUTH!

One says before and the other said after. They could both be true.

Mar 27, 2012#255

makare

Dave.... it was a joke.

Mar 27, 2012#256

Dave

makare said:
Dave.... it was a joke.

Okay. I thought you may have read it wrong. I did the first time until after I clicked the links.

Mar 27, 2012#257

SeraRelm

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Whew, good thing with have police officers to make sure the witnesses get the right story

I agree, they ALWAYS overstep their bounds, like this asshole.
http://www.kpho.com/story/17253985/officer-credited-with-saving-lives-of-2-in-mesa-house-fire
Who the fuck does he think he is?! That's not his job! Corrupt son of a bitch!

Mar 27, 2012#258

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Whew, good thing with have police officers to make sure the witnesses get the right story

Then what is the point in asking follow up questions?

What do you do when you ask 4 people what happened and the 4th person gives a completely different story?

Of course it is easier to think that it is corruption instead of a cop DOING HIS JOB.

Mar 27, 2012#259

fade

I find it amusing that people are complaining in this thread that people are discussing Trayvon Martin's death in a thread about Trayvon Martin's death, and using that fact to condemn the posters in this thread.

Mar 27, 2012#260

makare

amusing... but not surprising.

Mar 27, 2012#261

Charlie Don't Surf

I was referring to this report for this specific case

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...s-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T1_Q1BGPUhx

I am aware SeraRelm that cops find time to help people in between protecting their own from any consequences for their actions, but thanks for the link

Mar 27, 2012#262

Covar

LeQuack?

Mar 27, 2012#263

Charlie Don't Surf

it's possible more than one person harbors a healthy distrust of the police

if you want to make a "Police doing good things" megathread, I'd read it and won't stop you

Mar 27, 2012#264

makare

I think it is better to keep any judgment of police behavior to individual police officers and not to the concept of policing as a whole. That is a lot of people getting paint with a too broad a stroke. I know some bad police officers but if I let those guys sour my feeling about ALL police officers I would end up like my friend who thinks that all police officers are corrupt and all military personnel are going to hell. It just becomes absurd.

Mar 27, 2012#265

Charlie Don't Surf

makare said:
I think it is better to keep any judgment of police behavior to individual police officers and not to the concept of policing as a whole. That is a lot of people getting paint with a too broad a stroke. I know some bad police officers but if I let those guys sour my feeling about ALL police officers I would end up like my friend who thinks that all police officers are corrupt and all military personnel are going to hell. It just becomes absurd.

one of the problems is there is a systemic culture among the ~institution of the police~ that makes sure that no one faces consequences for ruining people's lives

Mar 27, 2012#266

makare

I know that all too well. I'll tell you coming out of law school after reading all those damn cases and not having a serious distrust of police in general is extremely hard. But I still think it is bullshit. There are many good officers doing there job well who do not deserve to be clumped in with the bad officers. I don't have to simplify things just to make them easier to deal with. I am not going to let good people get swept in with all the bad ones just because I don't want to take the time to do the work.

Mar 27, 2012#267

Charlie Don't Surf

fuck the police who abuse their power and get away with evil because of their slightly less evil friends protecting them doesn't have the same ring to it

Mar 27, 2012#268

makare

Well if more people could get past buzzwords and political action phrases and actual get down to the content of an issue this country would be a better place.

Mar 27, 2012#269

SeraRelm

I'm gonna retract what I posted in this one. I'm just gonna say that you're pretty much as bad as any racist you point out when it comes to cops.

Mar 27, 2012#270

Adammon

Trayvon Martin, the Florida teenager shot dead during a scuffle with a neighborhood watchman, was suspended from his Miami school three times over the past year, according to the family attorney.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...roblems-school/story?id=16011674#.T3H3QtnAG30

Media is now in full-on villify Trayvon Martin mode. How about just reporting that he was suspended for MJ possession once, graffiti once and truancy/tardiness once (which isn't even noted as one of the suspensions in the article)?

Mar 27, 2012#271

makare

combine that with his bad taste fashion and his death becomes clearly inevitable.

Mar 27, 2012#272

SpecialKO

According to CNN, the "MJ possession" was actually possession of an empty bag that tested positive for MJ residue.

Mar 27, 2012#273

Chippy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
fuck the police who abuse their power and get away with evil because of their slightly less evil friends protecting them doesn't have the same ring to it

Please don't be that guy, Charlie.

Mar 27, 2012#274

Shegokigo

Chippy, Charlie Don't Surf is the embodiment of "that guy".

Mar 27, 2012#275

Charlie Don't Surf

it's times like these I'm glad we have a wildly liberal media

Mar 27, 2012#276

SpecialKO

Charlie Don't Surf said:
it's times like these I'm glad we have a wildly liberal media

Please tell me you're being sarcastic.

Because if you're not, you're agreeing with conservatives, and I'm not prepared for the world to end before I finish Mass Effect.

Mar 27, 2012#277

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm being extremely sarcastic, since the media is looking for reasons it's okay this young black male was shot dead

Mar 27, 2012#278

SeraRelm

Instead of deifying him, I know! :fu:

Mar 27, 2012#279

checkeredhat

checkeredhat said:
... I usually stay out of these threads because the arguments over politics just get too heated and devolve into flamewars too quickly and too often.

Why didn't I listen to myself?

Mar 27, 2012#280

SpecialKO

To be fair, we do have a cultural history involving the deification of a young man of color whose death was looked on as initially okay.

Mar 27, 2012#281

fade

I know, right? It's also a good thing that this one case about a young black male completely negates all those pretty white girl media cases, so we should all be happy now and get off our stupid equal rights high horses.

Mar 27, 2012#282

SpecialKO

It sounds to me like the wrong that must be righted is digging into why the police, according to news reports, had to be cajoled into further investigation. That an unarmed kid was killed by a man under questionable circumstances seems like more than enough reason. Whatever that guy or that kid were doing the day, week, or year before that is immaterial.

Mar 27, 2012#283

SeraRelm

If the kid was white, would this have come to such ridiculous levels of media attention?

Mar 27, 2012#284

ElJuski

Mathias, wish I could. They're actually really good kids, despite, you know, being angry, misguided teens. And either way, I wasn't saying I knew more about black culture; I will say what I have learned, especially about inner city kids--I teach them, did you know that?--has totally changed my perspective on plenty of things. And hell yes I'm the Jon Lovitz character. I wish I had Pfeiffer's physique. But really I'm mostly the chubby, non-crack-head Ryan Gossling in Half Nelson.

It all just adds up to all of those ivory tower african-american lit and soc classes I took back in college, and there are plenty things about this case that are inherently revealing about people's culture and upbringing. Meanwhile the media is definitely in high gear of playing into as much bullshit as it can, and really obscuring the fact that something really tragic happened.

Mar 27, 2012#285

LordRendar

SeraRelm said:
If the kid was white, would this have come to such ridiculous levels of media attention?

Only if he was shot by a black man.

Mar 27, 2012#286

makare

In this case there is the racial issue, the gun issue, the youth issue, the vigilante issue it has a lot going on that makes it noteworthy.

Mar 27, 2012#287

Charlie Don't Surf

LordRendar said:
Only if he was shot by a black man.

If it was a white kid shot by a black man, the controversy would be over which method of the death penalty would be applied

Mar 27, 2012#288

ElJuski

pretty much, Charlie, that's exactly what would be happening.

Mar 27, 2012#289

Krisken

SeraRelm said:
If the kid was white, would this have come to such ridiculous levels of media attention?

If the kid was white, would the police have passed it off as self defense?

Mar 27, 2012#290

Jay

You shouldn't even be able to claim self-defense after following someone around and approaching them in a hostile matter while wearing a hidden piece regardless of age, sex or race.

The fact that a person can do so, in my eyes, makes me mock not only the current system but those who encourage or ignore it.

It's pretty damn pathetic.

Mar 27, 2012#291

ElJuski

Jay said:
You shouldn't even be able to claim self-defense after following someone around and approaching them in a hostile matter while wearing a hidden piece.

But you sure can get people on the internet to argue about it!

Mar 27, 2012#292

Jay

Mar 27, 2012#293

Null

I don't think the facts of this case will ever be perfectly clear. But it definitely seems that Zimmerman escalated the situation by following Martin after calling 911. Without that act, the whole chain of tragic events seems unlikely to have occurred. Does that make him a murderer? No. But while I fully support the right to carry a firearm for self defense, the first responsibility of any reasonable person is to avoid pushing a situation towards violence. Zimmerman's actions reflect poorly on the vast majority of responsible gun owners in the US.

And that's where I'm going to leave it.

Mar 27, 2012#294

ElJuski

The best part is I wasn't even being an ass to you or anything, you fucking idiot.

Mar 27, 2012#295

Chippy

Jay said:
View attachment 5152

whoa dude a custom made image insulting him fuck dude he is so burned right now

like FUCK dude you live on the edge.

Mar 27, 2012#296

ElJuski

Chippy said:
whoa dude a custom made image insulting him fuck dude he is so burned right now

like FUCK dude you live on the edge.

*checks watch*

*waits for Jay to do another one showing how edgy and cool and not-give-a-fuck he is*

Mar 27, 2012#297

Adammon

Chippy said:
whoa dude a custom made image insulting him fuck dude he is so burned right now

like FUCK dude you live on the edge.

Mar 27, 2012#298

ElJuski

Adammon said:
View attachment 5154

Jay said:
View attachment 5152

Mar 27, 2012#299

Krisken

Adammon said:
View attachment 5154

Are you Jay's alt?

Mar 27, 2012#300

Adammon

Krisken said:
Are you Jay's alt?

Mar 27, 2012#301

Krisken

Adammon said:
View attachment 5155

You do realize you look like a not as fat Brian Posehn when you do that, right?

Mar 27, 2012#302

Frank

I don't see it.

Mar 27, 2012#303

Adammon

Krisken said:
You do realize you look like a not as fat Brian Posehn when you do that, right?

!!RESEMBLANCE IS UNCANNY!!

Mar 27, 2012#304

Frank

Now I kind of see it.

Mar 27, 2012#305

Mathias

ElJuski said:
Mathias, wish I could. They're actually really good kids, despite, you know, being angry, misguided teens. And either way, I wasn't saying I knew more about black culture; I will say what I have learned, especially about inner city kids--I teach them, did you know that?--has totally changed my perspective on plenty of things. And hell yes I'm the Jon Lovitz character. I wish I had Pfeiffer's physique. But really I'm mostly the chubby, non-crack-head Ryan Gossling in Half Nelson.

It all just adds up to all of those ivory tower african-american lit and soc classes I took back in college, and there are plenty things about this case that are inherently revealing about people's culture and upbringing. Meanwhile the media is definitely in high gear of playing into as much bullshit as it can, and really obscuring the fact that something really tragic happened.

I grew up a couple blocks from where 50 Cent lived if that gives you any perspective on my interaction with black culture. I agree with you completely about the media (and Charlie too).

Bottom line: A kid (yes, 17 years old is still a damn kid) has been murdered over something stupid. Take ethnicity and race completely out of it, and that's what you have. As a kid I remember getting in trouble in school, skipping, etc... Treyvon Martin was a regular kid. He was confronted for no reason, raised a stink, and died because of it. As an adult, Zimmerman should have known to lay off and not follow him. I think he should be put away for murder.

Mar 27, 2012#306

SeraRelm

No one is saying Zimmerman did the right thing, just that Martin was a stupid fucking kid for swinging. Kids are stupid, even ones at 17, even ones 6'3", they're stupid. And that stupidity TIED IN to his getting killed.

Maybe we should try to help kids not be so fucking stupid? Not laying blame with that, just saying it should be a bit of a wake up call for people.

See also the boondocks video I posted.

Mar 27, 2012#307

Krisken

And maybe, just maybe, they'll grow up into adults who aren't stupid and disregard the advice of police dispatchers and start a fight they can't win.

Mar 27, 2012#308

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
one of the problems is there is a systemic culture among the ~institution of the police~ that makes sure that no one faces consequences for ruining people's lives

That is literally as true as saying that black people are hoodlums, women are sluts, jews are greedy, whites are fat, etc, etc, etc. If you believe what you've just written, then you have no place to stand in a lot of the other arguments you maintain on this forum.

Mar 27, 2012#309

SeraRelm

stienman said:
That is literally as true as saying that black people are hoodlums, women are sluts, jews are greedy, whites are fat, etc, etc, etc. If you believe what you've just written, then you have no place to stand in a lot of the other arguments you maintain on this forum.

SeraRelm said:
I'm gonna retract what I posted in this one. I'm just gonna say that you're pretty much as bad as any racist you point out when it comes to cops.

Mar 27, 2012#310

SpecialKO

Wait, choosing to be a police officer and swearing an oath to a community is now the same as belonging to a genetically-determined sub-group of society?

Are you guys serious?

Mar 27, 2012#311

Krisken

::Charlie trolls Halforums::

::It's SUPER EFFECTIVE!::

Mar 27, 2012#312

makare

No the point is Charlie is always bitching about generalities and here he is generalizing every police officer everywhere. He is just being called on his hypocrisy.

Mar 27, 2012#313

SeraRelm

By two people even.

Mar 27, 2012#314

Yoshimickster

My final words on the matter: Fuck the police, and fuck racist psycho gun-owners. Regular gun-owners are okay, but ONLY for hunting.

Mar 27, 2012#315

SpecialKO

makare said:
No the point is Charlie is always bitching about generalities and here he is generalizing every police officer everywhere. He is just being called on his hypocrisy.

Yeah, no. Folks could have said, "that's like saying all politicians are corrupt, or all teachers are incompetent drains on society, or all union-workers are lazy, or all democrats are whiners", etc. Perfectly correct, calls his crap, all good.

So why race, folks?

Mar 27, 2012#316

Krisken

Well, I did say it was super effective.

Mar 27, 2012#317

makare

There are plenty of people who own guns who are responsible who use them for just sport shooting or trick shooting etc.

I am all for gun control but I wouldn't limit it only to hunting. Guns have a lot of history to them and shouldn't be demonized just because of some stupid people.

SpecialKO said:
Yeah, no. Folks could have said, "that's like saying all politicians are corrupt, or all teachers are incompetent drains on society, or all union-workers are lazy, or all democrats are whiners", etc. Perfectly correct, calls his crap, all good.

So why race, folks?

Because race/gender are charlies pet bitches?

Mar 27, 2012#318

checkeredhat

SpecialKO said:
Yeah, no. Folks could have said, "that's like saying all politicians are corrupt, or all teachers are incompetent drains on society, or all union-workers are lazy, or all democrats are whiners", etc. Perfectly correct, calls his crap, all good.

So why race, folks?

Because that's what he calls them on.

Mar 27, 2012#319

sixpackshaker

Well, Fuck You Too.

I enjoy going to the range to work on a critical life skill.

I also sleep better knowing that I have the option of defending myself. Especially since twice in my life I lived in neighborhoods where home invasions were an issue.

Mar 27, 2012#320

Gared

SpecialKO said:
Yeah, no. Folks could have said, "that's like saying all politicians are corrupt, or all teachers are incompetent drains on society, or all union-workers are lazy, or all democrats are whiners", etc. Perfectly correct, calls his crap, all good.

So why race, folks?

Because Charlie doesn't habitually call people out for calling politicians corrupt, teachers incompetent, union-workers lazy, or democrats whiners; but he does habitually call other people out for being racist and sexist.

Mar 27, 2012#321

checkeredhat

Yoshimickster said:
Regular gun-owners are okay, but ONLY for hunting.

sixpackshaker said:
Well, Fuck You Too.

I enjoy going to the range to work on a critical life skill.

I also sleep better knowing that I have the option of defending myself. Especially since twice in my life I lived in neighborhoods where home invasions were an issue.

You know, I actually have far more respect for someone who takes proper training and safety precautions owning a gun for defense hoping to never have to use it, than I do for someone who uses it to go kill animals for fun.

Call me crazy.

Mar 27, 2012#322

Mathias

Who Charlie thinks he is:

Who Charlie is really acting like:

Mar 27, 2012#323

Yoshimickster

Okay, also self-defense-but the attacker has to be at least armed. And not a terrified Honor student.

Mar 27, 2012#324

SpecialKO

Gared said:
Because Charlie doesn't habitually call people out for calling politicians corrupt, teachers incompetent, union-workers lazy, or democrats whiners; but he does habitually call other people out for being racist and sexist.

...that doesn't make it even remotely the same thing.

You're not calling Charlie a racist because he's railing against whitey, you're calling him a racist for being against police officers.

Mar 27, 2012#325

Krisken

Last word addendum?

Mar 27, 2012#326

fade

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what difference it makes whether someone belongs to a group by birth or by choice or by coercion from space aliens. The topic of interest was generalizations and assumptions about a group member's behavior, not how they came to be in the group.

Mar 27, 2012#327

sixpackshaker

Yoshimickster said:
Okay, also self-defense-but the attacker has to be at least armed. And not a terrified Honor student.

If someone kicks in my door, I am not going to offer my body up to see if he is armed.

I don't conceal/carry because there is too many options for staying out of trouble when out and about.

Mar 27, 2012#328

SpecialKO

Mathias said:
Who Charlie thinks he is:

Who Charlie is really acting like:

Calling him an entitled little brat with limited understanding of the real world is a lot different from saying he's a racist for not liking the institution of police because "police suck".

Mar 27, 2012#329

SpecialKO

fade said:
The topic of interest was generalizations and assumptions about a group member's behavior, not how they came to be in the group.

BS, then they would have used other groups that are relatively analogous. Choosing race was deliberate.

Mar 27, 2012#330

fade

Well duh, for reasons already stated. That hardly makes it "BS". Calling him racist against cops is silly, and no one did that but you when you twisted their words.

Mar 27, 2012#331

Chippy

Yoshimickster said:
My final words on the matter: Fuck the police, and fuck racist psycho gun-owners. Regular gun-owners are okay, but ONLY for hunting.

oh thank God we were all waiting on your weigh in

Mar 27, 2012#332

Mathias

SpecialKO said:
Calling him an entitled little brat with limited understanding of the real world is a lot different from saying he's a racist for not liking the institution of police because "police suck".

No.

I'm singling out one person; not a group. SHUT UP!

Mar 27, 2012#333

SpecialKO

fade said:
Well duh, for reasons already stated. That hardly makes it "BS".

It's complete BS. It's just another form of ad hominem.

Calling him racist against cops is silly, and no one did that but you when you twisted their words.

Their words. I even quoted them. Words matter, enormously.

Mar 27, 2012#334

SpecialKO

Mathias said:
No.

I'm singling out one person; not a group. SHUT UP!

When did I accuse you of saying things about a group?

Mar 27, 2012#335

strawman

Mar 27, 2012#336

sixpackshaker

Generalizations are always bad....

shit.

Mar 27, 2012#337

fade

That makes no sense. In no way does that fit the definition of ad hominem. It is not BS. It is exactly as I explained it.

I am literally scratching my head here on how else to explain this. The whole point was that he's generalizing in the same way he claims to hate. Who really cares if copism is as "bad" as racism? My point was that that had nothing to do with anything. Saying that making assumptions about a person based on some category they fall into is bad out of one side of your mouth, and then doing it yourself out of the other side is something worth pointing out. Racism was chosen specifically, it certainly was. Who denied that? It was chosen specifically because of a) the current thread, and b) Charlie's previous posts about it specifically. Not in any way because people think that being a cop is equivalent to hundreds of years of treatment as subhuman. Because that has nothing to do with it. It is also a pretty good example of a straw man, since that term gets thrown around a lot lately.

EDIT: It also has nothing to do with whether generalization is "bad" or not. It has to do with the fact that he specifically violated something he claimed to uphold, regardless of whether generalization is good or bad.

Mar 27, 2012#338

checkeredhat

SpecialKO said:
It's complete BS. It's just another form of ad hominem.

Their words. I even quoted them. Words matter, enormously.

Yes, you quoted them, then added in the word Racist and got all mad about it. nobody said racist, nobody said it was the SAME thing as racist, what they said was that generalization is no more truthful than any generalization based on race, gender or sexual orientation.
You absolutely twisted their words around.

Mar 27, 2012#339

strawman

Mar 27, 2012#340

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Guys, guys, guys!

....

Have you SEEN CynicismKills sideburns? They are freakin' awesome.

Mar 27, 2012#341

checkeredhat

He's got a point, you guys.

Mar 27, 2012#342

SpecialKO

fade said:
EDIT: It also has nothing to do with whether generalization is "bad" or not. It has to do with the fact that he specifically violated something he claimed to uphold, regardless of whether generalization is good or bad.

The phrase you're looking for is tu quoque, actually.

Mar 27, 2012#343

checkeredhat

SpecialKO said:
The phrase you're looking for is tu quoque, actually.

Then why did you use the phrase ad hominem?

Mar 27, 2012#344

strawman

Mar 27, 2012#345

SpecialKO

checkeredhat said:
Then why did you use the phrase ad hominem?

Because it's a form of ad hominem. My bad for being less specific, sorry.

Mar 27, 2012#346

Bumble the Boy Wonder

stienman said:

I like that after 10 pages of this thread, it wasn't until my post that you felt the need to do this.

It's a nice feeling.

Mar 27, 2012#347

makare

I might agree with SpecialKO if this was anyone besides charlie.

Say what you want about ad hominems but what someone has said and done in the past does not disappear just because they are making a new argument. And Charlie has made a career out of hargle garbling on the forum for years now. Glass houses and all that.

Mar 27, 2012#348

Bumble the Boy Wonder

makare said:
hargle garbling

Where the hell is my Adammon signal...

Mar 27, 2012#349

SpecialKO

Which just makes Charlie a douche.

I really don't want to be defending him here, but the way this is going down really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I guess it's my turn to be a white knight (for Charlie, J-tap-dancing-C).

Bumble the Boy Wonder said:
I like that after 10 pages of this thread, it wasn't until my post that you felt the need to do this.

It's a nice feeling.

It's because you're just too intense, Bumble.

Mar 27, 2012#350

Charlie Don't Surf

stienman said:
That is literally as true as saying that black people are hoodlums, women are sluts, jews are greedy, whites are fat, etc, etc, etc. If you believe what you've just written, then you have no place to stand in a lot of the other arguments you maintain on this forum.

I completely disagree with you.

Mar 27, 2012#351

Shegokigo

That gif makes no sense. Why would he have a gallon of gasoline by his computer? At least for everythingelse he goes off screen to go get.

Mar 27, 2012#352

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Shegokigo said:
That gif makes no sense. Why would he have a gallon of gasoline by his computer? At least for everythingelse he goes off screen to go get.

Maybe he's out camping.

Mar 27, 2012#353

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I completely disagree with you.

Mar 27, 2012#354

SpecialKO

Shegokigo said:
That gif makes no sense. Why would he have a gallon of gasoline by his computer? At least for everythingelse he goes off screen to go get.

Maybe he was on his way to do something else, he just put it down temporarily.

Mar 27, 2012#355

Shegokigo

Nope nope, he was sitting and reading on his computer.

Mar 27, 2012#356

SpecialKO

Hmmm, maybe we're asking the wrong question.

Maybe the real question is, "why did he only burn the monitor?"

Mar 27, 2012#357

sixpackshaker

SpecialKO said:
Hmmm, maybe we're asking the wrong question.

Maybe the real question is, "why did he only burn the monitor?"

It was an older iMac

Mar 27, 2012#358

strawman

Shegokigo said:
Nope nope, he was sitting and reading on his computer.

Maybe he was following a skeezy looking thread, and kept the gas can on hand "just in case" things got out of hand, to protect himself. One thing led to another and he had to use the option of last resort...

Mar 27, 2012#359

SpecialKO

sixpackshaker said:
It was an older iMac

I dunno, it looks like an old piece of cra-

Mar 27, 2012#360

Adammon

Bumble the Boy Wonder said:
Where the hell is my Adammon signal...

I'm concerned what that would look like Bumble. Very concerned.

Mar 27, 2012#361

Shegokigo

stienman said:
Maybe he was following a skeezy looking thread, and kept the gas can on hand "just in case" things got out of hand, to protect himself. One thing led to another and he had to use the option of last resort...

But not the matches/sledgehammer and gun? Nope. Not buying it.

Mar 27, 2012#362

Frank

Adammon said:
I'm concerned what that would look like Bumble. Very concerned.

A silhouette of Brian Posehn on a spotlight.

Mar 27, 2012#363

checkeredhat

Shegokigo said:
But not the matches/sledgehammer and gun? Nope. Not buying it.

Maybe he works as a mechanic, and the computer is one they have in the garage to track customer data/appointments and to order parts. Its a slow day so he's surfing the net while at work.

Mar 27, 2012#364

SpecialKO

He could have been carrying the match already. Maybe he was intending self-immolation, but reasoned that he had to kill the computer first. So naturally, he had to go get the sledgehammer and gun.

Mar 27, 2012#365

Frank

Yoshimickster said:
My final words on the matter: Fuck the police, and fuck racist psycho gun-owners. Regular gun-owners are okay, but ONLY for hunting.

Also, as I often tell Charlie, yes please or fuck you.

Mar 27, 2012#366

Adammon

Frank said:
A silhouette of Brian Posehn on a spotlight.

Mar 27, 2012#367

D

Dubyamn

I've often found that the older I get the more I hate cops.

Probably says volumes about me.

Mar 27, 2012#368

sixpackshaker

I am about this close | | to calling State Troopers sonny...

Mar 27, 2012#369

Ravenpoe

I neither like or dislike cops on a personal level. Police and other authoritarian figures are important parts of society, and should I be the victim of a crime, I certainly want to have them to call upon to help sort it out. But liking or dislike a group consisting of hundreds of thousands of people is to paint with such a broad stroke that to attempt to do so only makes you look like a fool.

I like several police officers.

I dislike a few as well.

I'd go so far to say that the ratio of like to dislike among police officers I have met is similar to the ratio of any other group of people I've come into contact with.

So in closing, to keep my street cred, I will say fuck -some- of the police, and the rest could probably use a gift basket for the service they provide.

Except Frankie. :zoid:

Mar 27, 2012#370

Frank

You're just mad I took your spot that one night in ME3 multiplayer.

Mar 27, 2012#371

Ravenpoe

Frank said:
You're just mad I took your spot that one night in ME3 multiplayer.

IT WAS MY SPOT AND YOU KNEW IT!

Goddamn corrupt cops!

Mar 27, 2012#372

Officer_Charon

I had a long Barney Fife spiel that went here.

Then I took an arrow to the knee.

Mar 27, 2012#373

sixpackshaker

FUCK THE POLICE

Mar 27, 2012#374

Officer_Charon

Also:
R Lee Ermey's intro rant in Full Metal Jacket may apply here.
(pertinent section is 0:42 to 1:00)

Mar 27, 2012#375

ElJuski

Mathias said:
I grew up a couple blocks from where 50 Cent lived if that gives you any perspective on my interaction with black culture. I agree with you completely about the media (and Charlie too).

Bottom line: A kid (yes, 17 years old is still a damn kid) has been murdered over something stupid. Take ethnicity and race completely out of it, and that's what you have. As a kid I remember getting in trouble in school, skipping, etc... Treyvon Martin was a regular kid. He was confronted for no reason, raised a stink, and died because of it. As an adult, Zimmerman should have known to lay off and not follow him. I think he should be put away for murder.

Right, when it comes down to brass tacks, we agree exactly the same. I'm way with you, man.

Mar 27, 2012#376

ElJuski

and as for the people saying we should try to help those kids not being so fucking stupid, I hate to say it--@Mathias excuse me-- I spend my whole day, Monday through Friday--trying to make them not so fucking stupid.

Mar 27, 2012#377

CynicismKills

checkeredhat said:
He's got a point, you guys.

Yeah man, these babies don't grow themselves.

Well, they do. But still.

Mar 27, 2012#378

Null

sixpackshaker said:
Well, Fuck You Too.

I enjoy going to the range to work on a critical life skill.

I also sleep better knowing that I have the option of defending myself. Especially since twice in my life I lived in neighborhoods where home invasions were an issue.

Agreed. My uncle lives in a rural area where meth is a problem and home invasions are an issue. Thus, he has firearms for self-defense. He hasn't had to shoot anyone, but it did take working the pump on his 12 gauge to dissuade the last unwelcome visitor.

Mar 28, 2012#379

PotaDOS

figmentPez said:
There is nothing wrong with parking in a designated parking space. That is not a foolish choice to make. Confronting someone who is stalking you is not a wise decision. A more apt parking comparison would be parking on the shoulder of a busy highway, when there are other parking spaces available. If a drunk plows into your car when you parked someplace unwise, that doesn't absolve you of the foolishness of poor parking. The guilt of bad parking choices does not mean you deserve to have your car destroyed, but you're still foolish to park there no matter what happens afterwards. The two things are not actually related. Even though the car would not have been destroyed by the drunk driver if it had been parked in a designated spot, and not just on the side of the road, that is not the cause of the destruction, and the destruction does not negate foolishness in parking.

I apologize that my post wasn't as clear as I had intended. I'll be concise this time:

Blaming the kid for being shot by a racist stalker with a concealed weapon as much as the racist stalker with a concealed weapon is terrible. I simply can't describe how wrong that is. Kids make mistakes and its up to the adult to act like an adult, not stalk the kid with a deadly weapon, and not to shoot him when the kid finally freaks out from being stalked. That's the extent of my thoughts on the subject.

Mar 28, 2012#380

Mathias

checkeredhat said:
Then why did you use the phrase ad hominem?

Because it took him 10 more minutes to google and then sound smart.

Mar 28, 2012#381

Mathias

ElJuski said:
and as for the people saying we should try to help those kids not being so fucking stupid, I hate to say it--@Mathias excuse me-- I spend my whole day, Monday through Friday--trying to make them not so fucking stupid.

See, that sucks because the way urban culture goes is that these kids

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I completely disagree with you.

But you're saying "fuck the police; police are corrupt; the policing institution is corrupt." That is essentially the same thing. I wonder do you really believe that shit, or do you say it just to be hip? Honestly, believing in absolutes is more of a conservative christian right wing nutjob thing, but I guess it swings far left too....

Eitherway, I've got a special present in the mail for you.

Now, that said. I still 100% agree with you about the Treyvon Martin case, and that the cops in this case are turning out to be complete assholes. In no way do I believe all-or even most -cops are this incompetent.

How many people have you personally known that work as police officers? My guess is none. Which completely correlates back to your opinion of them. I suggest making friends with at least one person who works as a cop. You see how closely this parallels other forms of prejudice? I could easily write in "black person" instead of "cop", and you'd have the same context.

Mar 28, 2012#382

Dave

Am I starting to change my views on this as more information comes out? Maybe. Still don't know all the facts, but those coming out are more and more damning towards Zimmerman and his background.

http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/

Seems he should not have been allowed to even own a gun.

Mar 28, 2012#383

SpecialKO

While that stuff certainly is fishy and seems indicative, it still doesn't shed more light on what actually happened, which seems to be the real mystery (at least to the public).

Mar 28, 2012#384

fade

Dammit. I came in here for an argument, only to find things had been resolved sort of peacefully. Debate blue balls.

Mar 28, 2012#385

SpecialKO

fade said:
Debate blue balls.

You got it.

*ahem*

I believe that blue balls is a real condition, and anyone who thinks otherwise sucks!

Mar 28, 2012#386

Charlie Don't Surf

the police = an institution, not every single individual police officer

Mar 28, 2012#387

sixpackshaker

Next you'll tell us that you have a friend who is a cop. Most bigots will use that type of line...

Mar 28, 2012#388

checkeredhat

sixpackshaker said:
Next you'll tell us that you have a friend who is a cop. Most bigots will use that type of line...

Hey man, stop stereotyping bigots. My friend's a bigot and he never does that.

Mar 28, 2012#389

makare

Charlie Don't Surf said:
the police = an institution, not every single individual police officer

That IS the point we are trying to get through to you, but I think you have bastardized even that.

Mar 28, 2012#390

Charlie Don't Surf

The only police officer, even online, with whom I interact in any regular capacity is Charon here

Mar 28, 2012#391

Covar

sixpackshaker said:
Next you'll tell us that you have a friend who is a cop. Most bigots will use that type of line...

I spend my days teaching cops... :awesome:

Mar 28, 2012#392

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
the police = an institution, not every single individual police officer

So what you're saying is "blacks = a race, not every single individual black person". Yeah, I still think it's pretty damn racist to rail against blacks in general even if you think there are exceptions who are okay people. Similarly, it's pretty damn prejudiced to rail against the police in general, even if you think there are exceptions.

Mar 28, 2012#393

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The only police officer, even online, with whom I interact in any regular capacity is Charon here

I'll bet Frankie would take exception to this remark.

Mar 28, 2012#394

LittleSin

Frankie is RCMP. They don't get any respect.

Mar 28, 2012#395

fade

Dave said:
I'll bet Frankie would take exception to this remark.

That was my first thought. Actually, it was "What is Frankie, chopped liver?"

Mar 28, 2012#396

checkeredhat

LittleSin said:
Frankie is RCMP. They don't get any respect.

SAM STEELE COMMANDS RESPECT

Mar 28, 2012#397

Charlie Don't Surf

Canada isn't half of the police state as the USA, so I guess I don't think of them in that same light.

but look, this isn't the place, I had been thinking of starting a "fuck the police megathread" where I post a lot of news stories and stuff people smarter than I have written on the subject. I just haven't had the time since well, it's a really busy time at work until the first week of april or so

Mar 28, 2012#398

Chippy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
police state as the USA

Stop.

Mar 28, 2012#399

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
police state as the USA

Here's my question and it's dead serious.

Is America more of a police state than it used to be in the "good old days" or have we just become more aware of the actions of SOME policemen due to the rise of cell phone cameras?

Mar 28, 2012#400

Charlie Don't Surf

the united states police state effectively enslaves minorities and the poor (but especially poor minorities)

*drop mic*

Mar 28, 2012#401

Charlie Don't Surf

Dave said:
Here's my question and it's dead serious.

Is America more of a police state than it used to be in the "good old days" or have we just become more aware of the actions of SOME policemen due to the rise of cell phone cameras?

My main argument / thrust is more along the lines of the War On Drugs, which I can't recall exactly when that became "a thing" and ramped up. Again, I don't have much time to put together much of a coherent response

Mar 28, 2012#402

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
My main argument / thrust is more along the lines of the War On Drugs, which I can't recall exactly when that became "a thing" and ramped up. Again, I don't have much time to put together much of a coherent response

The war on drugs I agree is a failed experiment that does exactly what you say to the poor and especially minorities. But I think that overzealous enforcement of the drug war does not equate to a de facto police state.

Mar 28, 2012#403

Null

I think the awareness is beyond comparison to even ten years ago. I don't think that police agencies have more general authority than before. For every video of one cop crossing the line, and all the attention it gets, you have to think about how much we simply used to not be aware of.

Mar 28, 2012#404

Charlie Don't Surf

I agree with most of that post but

Null said:
I don't think that police agencies have more general authority than before.

Patriot Act

Mar 28, 2012#405

fade

My problem with where this is going is that it's the wrong target to attack. I would go so far as to say the vast majority of cops are good human beings. They make mistakes, but they also do their jobs. There are a lot of minority arrests and minority overpopulation in prisons. Here's the thing though: is it the police who are being unfair by arresting people committing crimes? Or is the problem that we live in a self-perpetuating society where a criminal lifestyle is the only choice a lot of minorities feel they have? That isn't the arresting police officer's fault. That is everyone's fault. Including charlie's.

Mar 28, 2012#406

Covar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
the police state as the USA

And yet you want the country to "be more like socialist Europe." :rofl:

Mar 28, 2012#407

Adammon

Charlie Don't Surf said:
the united states police state effectively enslaves minorities and the poor (but especially poor minorities)

*drop mic*

Mar 28, 2012#408

Charlie Don't Surf

Covar said:
And yet you want the country to "be more like socialist Europe."

for the record, I said that with "in some regards", not all.

ALSO for the record, could you bring up how many times european police have accidentally shot someone to death? I'd love to see that statistic

Mar 28, 2012#409

Jay

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Canada isn't half of the police state as the USA

Mar 28, 2012#410

Charlie Don't Surf

this guy owns

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/28/politics/congressman-hoodie/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Mar 28, 2012#411

North_Ranger

Covar said:
And yet you want the country to "be more like socialist Europe."

God do I ever f***in' hate when you Americans speak of socialist Europe.

Mar 28, 2012#412

Null

To be fair, when people say that, they mean France. :troll:

...I think the trollface needs a beret.

Mar 28, 2012#413

ElJuski

I go with Charlie to plenty of places, and agree with him on countless occassions, but I think his stance on cops--and the hyper-liberal ideology beyond that--is a place I cannot follow. But as always I wish the man well in his pursuits.

Mar 28, 2012#414

Frank

LittleSin said:
Frankie is RCMP. They don't get any respect.

Not even from Canadian metro police like EPS or CPS. They call us piss stripes.

As an aside, fuck EPS and CPS.

Mar 28, 2012#415

ElJuski

This is the weirdest Skittles commercial I have ever seen.

!

Mar 28, 2012#416

fade

Wait. So Zimmerman is America now? Assuming that everyone in America thinks that all young black men are suspicious is incorrect, rude, and as much of an "ist" as assuming that a young black man is suspicious. Don't we teach our children that two wrongs don't make a right?

Mar 28, 2012#417

makare

yeah the skittles thing is a little weird. and he may not look suspicious but the dude at around :50 reminds me of a black Bert.

Mar 28, 2012#418

Chippy

fade said:
Wait. So Zimmerman is America now? Assuming that everyone in America thinks that all young black men are suspicious is incorrect, rude, and as much of an "ist" as assuming that a young black man is suspicious. Don't we teach our children that two wrongs don't make a right?

Probably more in response to Geraldo's "Don't wear your hood up" line.

Mar 28, 2012#419

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
the united states police state effectively enslaves minorities and the poor (but especially poor minorities)

*drop mic*

You should become a police officer; try something that isn't illegal gambling to make your difference on the world.

Mar 28, 2012#420

Charlie Don't Surf

Quotemander Prime said:
You should become a police officer; try something that isn't illegal gambling to make your difference on the world.

man you are fixated on that illegal gambling thing aren't you

Mar 28, 2012#421

Soliloquy

Well, things are certainly going on a downward spiral...

Director Spike Lee decided it's be a good idea to retweet Zimmerman's street address... only it ended up being the completely wrong address.

Now we've got an elderly couple who had absolutely nothing to do with the shooting fearing for their lives thanks to mob mentality.

God Bless America!

Mar 28, 2012#422

SeraRelm

I think it's racist to assume racism because of the races of those involved.

Mar 28, 2012#423

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
man you are fixated on that illegal gambling thing aren't you

It wouldn't be funny except for your high horse. Not sure how you balance a poker table on that thing's back.

Really though, it's more that for all the bitching about important issues, you choose to use your spare time playing poker and watching movies.

Mar 28, 2012#424

Charlie Don't Surf

Quotemander Prime said:
It wouldn't be funny except for your high horse. Not sure how you balance a poker table on that thing's back.

Really though, it's more that for all the bitching about important issues, you choose to use your spare time playing poker and watching movies.

I haven't played online poker in 3 or 4 years
and I'm not sure how having leisure time no matter what the fuck I do with it matters at all

Mar 28, 2012#425

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I haven't played online poker in 3 or 4 years
and I'm not sure how having leisure time no matter what the fuck I do with it matters at all

Women's rights.
Equality for same sex relationships.
Race issues.
Anti-war movement.
Growing disparity of income levels.
Police state.

You bitch about these things on here day after day.

What do you do about them?

You remind me of all the schmucks who say "I wish I could do art". They can; they just don't. They think some magical notion will come to their heads someday and it will change their lives. Is that what you're waiting for? Some idea to pop into your head about how to revolutionize the world? Unlikely. You're just another do-nothing. This is how you feel big--pretending to do something by bitching about it. You're as useless to the issues you pretend to care about as the people to their loved ones who, when confronted with a loved one's problem, say "I'm praying for you."

Mar 28, 2012#426

SeraRelm

We don't know what he does with his free time.

Besides post on here, I mean.

Mar 28, 2012#427

Charlie Don't Surf

Quotemander Prime said:
snip

Mar 28, 2012#428

SeraRelm

And douche it up while he does so. Be fair, only call him out on the bullshit we know of, not on that which we speculate.

Mar 28, 2012#429

Jay

So wait, the same people I've argued with in the past DON'T understand the point of that fantastic commercial?

My approach in the future..... will be different then.

Mar 28, 2012#430

Charlie Don't Surf

what I do with my free time is print out all of quotemander prime's posts and lay them across my bed then roll around and jerk off

Mar 28, 2012#431

SeraRelm

Fascinating.

Mar 28, 2012#432

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
what I do with my free time is print out all of quotemander prime's posts and lay them across my bed then roll around and jerk off

To a movie score.

Mar 28, 2012#433

Charlie Don't Surf

Schindler's List

Mar 28, 2012#434

checkeredhat

Mar 28, 2012#435

Hailey Knight

SeraRelm said:
And douche it up while he does so. Be fair, only call him out on the bullshit we know of, not on that which we speculate.

While this is true, he's watching somewhere around 20 different TV shows from what it sounds like in the Media thread, plus a lot of movies in theaters and at home. Unless his TV and movie watching goes on in a hyperbolic time chamber from Dragonball Z, that's a lot of week's leisure time spent watching stuff.

Unless he just reads synopses and pretends to be watching all that stuff. And for all I know, that's what it is, since most of his responses to people arguing with him about movies is "I haven't seen that one." So you're right, I have no idea what he does with his free time besides scouring this forum for when to harass our law enforcement or pretend women are helpless fragile unicorns.

Mar 28, 2012#436

fade

I question whether they were intentionally showing bias in that video. If it was intentional, the message is only doomed to get lost.

Mar 28, 2012#437

Hailey Knight

fade said:
I question whether they were intentionally showing bias in that video. If it was intentional, the message is only doomed to get lost.

I don't think Adammon's video gif shows bias at all.

Mar 28, 2012#438

ElJuski

A few things:

1. It's not really a skittles commercial. I was being sarcastic.
2. It takes a really thoughtful dissection of race to understand the intricacies of racism. Racism isn't a light switch; it's not just ON or OFF. In most cases these days there are plenty of inherent prejudices we carry around every day. It's important to make an autopsy of your own beliefs as well as of others to really understand the underlying principles. I think some of the worst racial prejudices are the ones we can't quickly identify, but are rather strange--and honestly, fascinating--throughlines we see, hear, and for the most part, ignore. Things like double-consciousness don't exist only in academic papers, and it's things like this Geraldo hoodie debacle that really bring it forward.

I wear hoodies all the time; I'm a husky white dude. Not suspicious. I live a couple blocks away from Howard University, and see people like those guys in the video all the time, and have seen, and yeah, no doubt, been a part of, that very same awful reaction. And, if anything, the murder of this unfortunate young black kid should be a gauge of just where race relations in this country have come, and most definitely ideas that need to be changed, or buried for good.

Mar 28, 2012#439

ElJuski

I also think that, as a whole, white people really struggle with the fact that they still have inherent racist issues. I still struggle with that feeling sometime. "I'm not racist, this thing is bullshit for X reason." This happens to good, intelligent people all the time, people capable of having smart academic discussions. It's just such a weird nerve for certain people to touch, and it's bothersome, but it's really important.

Mar 28, 2012#440

Adammon

Racism isn't a white-only problem, it's a human problem.

Mar 28, 2012#441

ElJuski

whaaaaaat

Mar 28, 2012#442

Magister Moonie

Charlie Don't Surf said:
what I do with my free time is print out all of quotemander prime's posts and lay them across my bed then roll around and jerk off

THIS IS A LIE THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU DO

Mar 28, 2012#443

Terrik

Adammon said:
Racism isn't a white-only problem, it's a human problem.

Oh absolutely. Racism is everywhere in the world.

Mar 28, 2012#444

Frank

I would be tickled pink if that was Kissinger.

Mar 28, 2012#445

Magister Moonie

Kissinger was a warcriminal.

Mar 28, 2012#446

SeraRelm

I grew up in a family with racial prejudices and it bothers the shit out of me when people make serious comments along those lines, however, I think humor stands on a different level in some ways. Some of the most racist jokes I've heard come from people of those very races. This isn't a racism issue to me, this is a human stupidity led to tragedy issue. I don't care what color their skin was, I care that some dude got an over-exaggerated sense of authority and importance and some other dude decided to bump heads with him in retaliation. Result; someone died. Zimmerman should get his ass arrested and locked up, but this platforming is bullshit.

Mar 28, 2012#447

ElJuski

So, just to be sure here, I hope that the idea that "racism is all over the place" isn't a new concept to anyone here on the boards. I hope you don't also assume that I think that way. And finally, I hope you guys aren't using "well everybody is racist" as an excuse for the many ways that we each, individually, are racist.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not blatantly saying anyone here is a racist pig or an awful human being. I'm saying that when something like this happens, taking a critical look, and being open and honest about it, even if it means saying something "incorrect" or "wrong", is what's going to be the most beneficial, not playing any sort of labyrinthine game full of blame and rationalizations.

Mar 28, 2012#448

ElJuski

And yeah, the major case here is the fact some kid got killed. But I think it doesn't detract to have an open conversation about race relations. I think the fact that people are throwing race into it, and the whole hoodie scenario, and the way the media is otherwise is blowing up about it, is a whole separate beast, but really, something we should be stepping back and considering at the same time.

We still have major racial problems in this country, and we shouldn't be ignoring it. We should be having an open dialogue about it.

Mar 28, 2012#449

fade

ElJuski said:
We still have major racial problems in this country, and we shouldn't be ignoring it. We should be having an open dialogue about it.

That is true. And it will be one uncomfortable dialogue. That will probably lead to a lot of 800 lb things in the room. Like the fact that you probably are more likely to be attacked by a black male in a hoodie in some places. The real racism is in a society (as I mentioned above) that perpetuates a vicious cycle by providing underfunded education and crappy housing projects on the basis of self-perpetuating biased reasoning.

Mar 28, 2012#450

ElJuski

Right, and see, the problem should be that we're seeing beyond simply "Black man + hoodie". It should be "This guy looks like he's going to rob me".

EDIT: well, and to be more specific, if you happen to be in a bad neighborhood, it's not the fact that the guy's black, it means it's a bad neighborhood, and it just happens to be that poor people in bad neighborhoods might want to rob you. It just so happens that socioeconomics, which is piled under a ton of under prejudices, etc, would make it that poor urban areas also happen to be more black. I'm not worried about a black dude in a hoodie attacking me on my block; if I went to a more prominently crime-ridden, poor side of town *cough* across the river *cough*, I'd sure as hell have a different, more careful attitude.

Mar 28, 2012#451

ElJuski

and, not to mention, things that we need to tell inner city kids every day, such as "don't be a stupid fuck" and "don't pretend like you're a thug, because you don't know when some asshole is going to shoot you in the fucking face"

Mar 28, 2012#452

fade

I think it will always be "it looks like this [insert some kind of categorization here] man is going to rob me". I think it's almost physically impossible to stop categorization. The human brain is really good at it. It served excellent evolutionary purposes. But categorization doesn't have to become bias. There's always going to be gross generalizations, we just have to make sure they're not stupid ones.

Mar 28, 2012#453

SeraRelm

Mar 28, 2012#454

ElJuski

Right. A shady looking guy is always going to be a shady looking guy. But we still have this fuzzy line where we have latent categorizations for people of different races.

And that's not to say I don't think it's getting better. But we wouldn't be having this discussion if people like Geraldo don't say dumb shit that makes us realize how much of that shit still persists on a day to day basis.

Mar 28, 2012#455

ElJuski

oh, and Sera, that episode of South Park is so phenomenal, fucking love those guys.

Mar 28, 2012#456

Shegokigo

The funny thing is, Charlie doesn't uphold to any of the things he supposedly posts in these threads. He's 100% full of hot air. However, an extremely effective Hipster Troll.

It was once I realized that he doesn't actually have any real opinion on the controversial subjects he posts on past the attempt to make people reply to him that I realized he's not but an online one man version of Westboro. 100% out for the attention (either due to not having it IRL or just for the sheer fun of it). Kudos Charlie my man, you are one entertaining (while fake) bastard.

Mar 28, 2012#457

SeraRelm

But it's fun to reply to him.. and Juski...

I said it.

Mar 28, 2012#458

Adammon

Police footage of George Zimmerman in custody after the shooting:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Claims out there that there's no visible blood or marks on his head. I'm pretty sure he's got a pretty good mark at 1:06 but it's hard to tell.

Mar 28, 2012#459

Shegokigo

Oh no doubt. I interact with Charlie all the time. The difference is though, I see exactly what he is. An entertainer and not how other see him: someone with an honest opposite opinion than their own.

Mar 28, 2012#460

checkeredhat

DAMMIT JUSKI YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE TURNING INTO THE FORUM VILLAIN (you said so yourself, dammit!) AND HERE YOU GO POSTING WELL THOUGHT OUT, REASONABLE AND INTELLIGENT POSTS THAT ARE ACTUALLY SENSITIVE TO THE ISSUE AT HAND! YOU SONUVABITCH!

Mar 28, 2012#461

ElJuski

I know. The worst part is with all these new shitthreads starting up because of the stupid fucking Halbucks, I should be in there having a field day but I said to myself, "let the dummies have their fun" :/

Mar 28, 2012#462

Charlie Don't Surf

Shegokigo said:
.

I don't know what is so inconceivable about the idea that someone holds radical political opinions and has an (admittedly on my part) weird taste in movies/TV, but whatever

Mar 28, 2012#463

Shegokigo

It's not inconvcievable. It's fake.

Mar 28, 2012#464

Charlie Don't Surf

I think it's fucking hilarious the person that pretends on here to be some crazed murderess is telling me I'm fake

Mar 28, 2012#465

Shegokigo

It is pretty hilarious due to the fact that I'm easily more real than you are. Difference is, I can't prove it without serious reprecussion where all you'd need to do is actually show some kind of receipt to a Charity event for one of the things you supposedly feel so strongly about or pictures of you at rallies in support of the things you supposedly believe in. Yet you can't, because for all your huffing and puffing, that's all it is. Air on the internet. No real substance.

You're a fake, a troll, and while it's amusing to me, it's gotten to the point I feel almost badly for some of the people around here who actually believe you have those "honest" opinions. However, without your little troll game on these forums, some of the threads would just be 1-2 pages long instead of the 14+ pages you can create with your charade.

Mar 28, 2012#466

ElJuski

yes, this is gonna be good

Mar 28, 2012#467

Charlie Don't Surf

"yes I have homicidal tendencies and more bodies in the gulf of mexico than Dexter, BUT this guy that thinks that women should be treated as people, he's just doing it for attention"

Mar 28, 2012#468

Shegokigo

You'll find out that I've never claimed to have actually murdered or killed anyone. I'm not that stupid. It's also 100% true that I had police officers come to my front door due to the incident at Half Pixel for even insinuating I had done something to someone. It was literally that vague. To top it off, I was on the one and only "alt" I had ever made. Reason being I didn't want anyone to think it was just "Shego joking around". Most of the "rampant murderess" stuff that you hear are people who have told "stories" based on my "character" but you werent around during the early HP days when I made clear the kind of person that I was.

I have nor will I ever admit to anything illegal I may or may not have done online. I'm smart enough to know how that would go for me.

Another difference between you and me Charlie, other than I'm not fake. Is that I don't try and make others feverently believe I'm something I'm not. I've said many times over the years, if you don't believe the kind of person that I am, good for you, I'm not here to convince you. I know who I am and what I've done/plan to do and that's good enough for me.

You on the other hand spout like a volcano when there's a controversial topic "OH LOOK AT ME, I'M THE ONLY ONE HERE WITH A DIFFERENT OPINION. LOOK HOW HIPSTER I AM. YOU ALL ARE WRONG AND I'M RIGHT EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NO REAL VALID OPINION BASED ON ANY KIND OF FACT."

Which has most been shown in this thread, when you told a Police Officer what his life is like when you haven't had a single real run in with the law your entire life. I don't even have to point out how fake you are after the hilarious hypocritcal game you've played in this thread.

It's already been pointed out how you generalize the police much how you scream and rant when someone generalizes blacks or gays. You put your own foot in your mouth so far you can't even gag. The best part of your troll though, is your ability to just ignore when you've been proven wrong and change entire tangents around to move away from the subject you've so throughly had your nose rubbed in like a dog in shit.

Mar 28, 2012#469

SeraRelm

Receipt please.

Mar 28, 2012#470

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm a little upset now that this thread is the charlie show instead of talking about the actual injustice part

Mar 28, 2012#471

Shegokigo

Be my guest, carry on then.

Mar 28, 2012#472

SeraRelm

It's always the Charlie show.

Mar 28, 2012#473

Charlie Don't Surf

nah I actually care about bringing things to y'alls attention you might not have noticed since you get your news from The Daily Show and think feminism won because of Liz Lemon or somethin

Mar 28, 2012#474

Shegokigo

Did you just tell people (like actual Police Officers and those who work with endangered minority youths) here that their opinions are based on something other than their own real experiences when your opinions....

Oh fuck it, let the show continue.

Mar 28, 2012#475

SeraRelm

Mar 28, 2012#476

Magister Moonie

Hipster is the dumbest insult.

Mar 28, 2012#477

Shegokigo

Magister, this thread is about social injustices... oh wait you're on topic. Never mind

Mar 28, 2012#478

MindDetective

Charlie Don't Surf said:
nah I actually care about bringing things to y'alls attention you might not have noticed since you get your news from The Daily Show and think feminism won because of Liz Lemon or somethin

You might, but you hardly ever actually defend your position. You swoop in, drop your Radical Liberalism Comment of the Day bomb and then twiddle your thumbs while people get up in arms about it. You probably do believe the statements you make but you don't show much interest in discussing them. In a lot of ways, that's the worst of it, because it suggests you are very closed to ideas that may run counter to yours.

Mar 28, 2012#479

Hailey Knight

MindDetective said:
You might, but you hardly ever actually defend your position. You swoop in, drop your Radical Liberalism Comment of the Day bomb and then twiddle your thumbs while people get up in arms about it. You probably do believe the statements you make but you don't show much interest in discussing them. In a lot of ways, that's the worst of it, because it suggests you are very closed to ideas that may run counter to yours.

He won't respond to that either. Not intelligently.

Mar 28, 2012#480

MindDetective

Quotemander Prime said:
He won't respond to that either. Not intelligently.

I know. I don't think Charlie is unintelligent, though. He's certainly very entrenched in his viewpoints, though.

Mar 28, 2012#481

Jay

Charlie Don't Surf said:
....you get your news from The Daily Show

Mar 28, 2012#482

Chippy

ElJuski said:
I know. The worst part is with all these new shitthreads starting up because of the stupid fucking Halbucks, I should be in there having a field day but I said to myself, "let the dummies have their fun" :/

the fuck is a halbuck

Mar 28, 2012#483

Soliloquy

MindDetective said:
I know. I don't think Charlie is unintelligent, though. He's certainly very entrenched in his viewpoints, though.

It could be worse, though. I've met people who are entrenched in their viewpoints, yet are convinced that they are open-minded and believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them to the letter on everything is a closed-minded fool.

This is, sadly, not as uncommon as one would hope.

Mar 28, 2012#484

Mathias

Mar 28, 2012#485

fade

get.. their ... news from the ... Daily Show? Really? Who gets their news from a comedy program? Jeez convincing yourself that the world is worse than it is is no more useful or helpful than convincing yourself it's better than it is. It's like... current event anorexia.

Also, isn't a so-called radical liberal insulting the daily show like a priest shooting the pope? Or maybe the pope's court jester

Mar 28, 2012#486

Krisken

How can you get the news from TDS? The jokes wouldn't be funny since you don't know the source material.

Mar 28, 2012#487

Null

There have been times where I've agreed, to a point, with some of the points of view that Charlie seems to be espousing. But after a sentence or two it quickly reaches the point of "You know, the best way for you to help the cause, is by not helping the cause."

Mar 29, 2012#488

ElJuski

For the record folks, a ton of people actually get their news from The Daily Show, which Jon Stewart has himself said in interviews its a sad reflection of the state of the news media that that's the case.

But anyway, and I was enjoying the Sheg / Charlie thing, I wouldn't mind diverting our attention back to the fact that an unnarmed kid was shot and killed. Anybody planning on donning a hoodie anytime soon? I wear my hoodies all the time, so now I could totally be a protester and protest that shit!

Mar 29, 2012#489

Mathias

ElJuski said:
For the record folks, a ton of people actually get their news from The Daily Show, which Jon Stewart has himself said in interviews its a sad reflection of the state of the news media that that's the case.

But anyway, and I was enjoying the Sheg / Charlie thing, I wouldn't mind diverting our attention back to the fact that an unnarmed kid was shot and killed. Anybody planning on donning a hoodie anytime soon? I wear my hoodies all the time, so now I could totally be a protester and protest that shit!

I wore my hoodie to work.

Mar 29, 2012#490

ElJuski

Mathias said:
I wore my hoodie to work.

There's not many times we agree on something, except apparently for slave chocolate and slain teenagers, so

*bro fist*

Mar 29, 2012#491

Mathias

Let me tell you it ain't easy to get a sport coat over that fucker.

Mar 29, 2012#492

Charlie Don't Surf

I have been wearing my hoodie up at work since I sit under a vent and have a shaved head right now. I haven't said anything about it since I work in the finance industry in Houston, so...

I have been called the Unibomber though

Mar 29, 2012#493

SeraRelm

Do they look suspicious?

Mar 29, 2012#494

fade

Yeah, it's been near 90 here this week. A hoodie would be a death wish of a different sort.

Mar 29, 2012#495

Covar

SeraRelm said:
Do they look suspicious?

Ghosts!

Mar 29, 2012#496

Frank

I also wear hoodies all the time. I own half a dozen of them.

I can't wear them to work.

Mar 29, 2012#497

SeraRelm

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I have been wearing my hoodie up at work since I sit under a vent and have a shaved head right now. I haven't said anything about it since I work in the finance industry in Houston, so...

I have been called the Unibomber though

So you've been mentioned as looking like a dangerous person since the addition of a hoodie...
SUSPICIOUS.

Mar 29, 2012#498

sixpackshaker

But Jerry Rivers said that only Blacks and Hispanics look suspicious in hoodies.

Mar 29, 2012#499

SpecialKO

I better warn a friend of mine to stop wearing her Mass Effect N7 Hoodie to work.

Mar 29, 2012#500

CrimsonSoul

Ah Fuck, Charlie lives an hour away from me? FML

Forums