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I wanted to make a thread for everyone who has seen the movie already where we can comment on the movie without having to spoiler tag every other sentence. If you have not seen The Last Jedi yet and want to remain spoiler free, this is not the thread for you. If someone else makes a similar thread between now and when I finish, mods are free to lock or combine this with that one, I got a lot to say.






****UNTAGGED SPOILERS AHEAD! YOU HAVE BEEN THOROUGHLY WARNED!!****






Ok, so thread proper begins here.

I saw The Last Jedi last night and I have to say, I was underwhelmed. They had a lot of good set pieces and a coherent plot, but there was something that was just off about it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it until I read a review last night (one that I can't find again right now), it feels like a holding pattern. Much like most of the story, the Resistance staying just out of range of the First Order, this movie feels like it is simply a transition piece. Its job being to move from Force Awakens to Episode 9 while not really doing much.

At the same time, we have a lot of things that actually happen in the movie. Kylo Ben takes control by killing Snoke. Luke being reluctant to train Rey, then giving her a couple of lessons, then having the showdown with the First Order, and then dying. Yoda showing back up to school Luke once more. And most importantly, most of the Resistance being wiped out.

Let's take some of these into consideration. First, Snoke. I thought his death was really cheap. We get to see his powers for just a little bit and then Kylo uses the saber to cut Snoke in half and he's just dead. We learn exactly nothing about him before he's lying dead on the floor. The fight scene afterwards with the guards is cool and all, but this whole scene still feels like a letdown. Here's this powerful and mysterious figure that we know nothing about and so have no attachments to annnnd he's dead. Who cares? To the audience at this point, Snoke is nothing more than a cheap knockoff of Palpatine. He's a mustache twirling villain cliche and so we don't care about his arc at all. The only reason he exists is to have someone berate Kylo, but he goes down so quickly that he becomes a joke.

Next, Luke. I really liked how they did most of Luke's scenes, I really do. They showed him to still be the guy in over his head that he was from the Original Trilogy, only now he knows just how deep the water really is. Having Yoda show up halfway through to guide Luke (and whack him on the nose) again was a great moment. Also, the decision to have a puppet again instead of cgi was also great. There was so much more life to Yoda that it makes the scene work even better. The ending where Luke projects himself with the Force to have a talk with Kylo Ben was pretty awesome, too. I knew something was up when his hair & beard were different and he was using the lightsaber we just saw be destroyed in a previous scene. His death at the end was a proper send off as well, I thought.

Ok, I'm going to address Leia next. As we all know, Carrie Fisher died last year. They had several opportunities to address this during the film, but did not. They even went as far as having Leia blasted out into space, but then use the force to will herself back to the ship. It could have been a beautiful moment to let Leia go and say farewell to Carrie Fisher, but no. They made her come back. In all fairness, this was likely the plot all along, but they could have gotten away with this with a few reshoots and edits. Instead, Leia survives the whole movie. We already know she is not going to be back in Episode 9, so they are now going to have to have her die off-screen. That seems like a bad idea, we should at least be able to say goodbye to Leia like we were able to with Han and Luke (though I know Luke is Force Ghosting his way into Episode 9).

Poe is still the lovable rogue he was in Force Awakens. He's still doing absolutely everything he can to save everybody he can however he can. Solid performance and I liked his scenes overall. There's not much else to say about him in this one.

The new characters now. Rose is the maintenance person who acts mostly as a foil for Finn. She's everything he's not. He gets suddenly thrust into the spotlight, but is afraid and unsure of himself. She mostly has been toiling away unnoticed, but is brave and sure what she is doing is right. I like her a lot. She plays off Finn perfectly and John Boyega and Kelly Marie Tran work well together. Their main scene in the casino falls mostly flat as it is a sudden shift in tone from the rest of the movie. Which leads us to DJ, Benicio Del Toro's stuttering codebreaker. He's introduced and dismissed so quickly that I didn't really know what to think about him. They don't even give his name in the movie or it went by so fast I didn't notice. So on to the Resistance's new second in command, Admiral Holdo. She was fine. She could have told Poe their plan to avert the five minute mutiny that happened later in the film, but otherwise she was fine. She's given an awesome death that seems in no way deserved for how little we got to see her. Another character that walked on and was quickly ushered right back off again. A solid meh for her.

Overall, the movie felt like it jumped around a LOT. We have the main stories of the Resistance trying to stay ahead of the First Order AND Luke/Rey's relationship on the island. Both are fine. But we also have Finn's arc shoehorned in sideways. He goes off to Casino Land to find the "Master Codebreaker", winds up with a completely different guy, gets to Snoke's ship only to be spotted, betrayed, and then have a showdown with Phasma. This arc felt very much like a giant waste of time in order to solely set up the fight at the end. Also, to introduce the boy at the end of the movie so we have a focal point for the "everyone is special" message to be brought up.

Also, did anyone else get the feeling that this movie stuck its Hoth battle at the end instead of the beginning? They even had a guy taste the sand and spit it back out to specifically say it's salt. The only way it could have been more blatant would have been if he then looked directly at the camera and said, "Nope, not snow! It's different!" Everything else was there. Speeders vs Walkers, the trenches dug out, having to blast the doors open, the "Rebels" desperately escaping. We get it, you Hoth.


So, a lot of stuff to go over here. Final say, I guess I liked it well enough, but it was not mind blowingly good and not in my top 5 best Star Wars Movies (in no particular order: New Hope, Empire, Rogue One, Jedi, and Force Awakens). It is also not down with the prequels and the Holiday special either. It's fine.

Well, I enjoyed it a lot more than you, so I guess I'm lucky.

Snoke's death did seem a bit of a cop out, but it echos the cop out of palpatine's death. Both depended on either 1) Vader/Kylo being stronger than Palpatine/Snoke or 2) Palpatine/Snoke being careless, or a combination of those two.

I, however, enjoyed the central message of the film and breaking of the "last minute save by the hot shots" trope that occurs so frequently through the series. Yes, the hotshots try a plan under the radar, but this time, after several lucky close calls, they fail, and there's nothing that saves the plan. The original plan is put back into place and - nicely done Disney - the hotshot plan actually ruins the actual, well thought out and would-have-succeeded plan.

Poe learns a hard lesson. He threw away lives to take down one dreadnaught that was probably just one of many in the first order fleet, and he doesn't learn from that or agree that the cost was too high for the benefit. Then he stages a rebellion in the rebellion - which, admittedly, only works because the leaders are being secretive, however that is tempered in my mind by the several sentences indicating she's a battle hardy and good leader, so she would only have done that if she thought it necessary - probably to avoid a possible mole (at the time they didn't have a clear idea of how they were being tracked, just that they were, and jumping wouldn't save them.)

Finn and Rose's discussion about how the tracking was being accomplished was a little too convenient, but "movie magic" so I can continue to wear my suspenders of disbelief and just roll with it.

The codebreaker, I think, has a role to play later on. They spent too much time trying to convince him, and him giving back the emotionally important trinket suggests there's more to him than a one shot character. His betrayal has some echos of Han Solo's originally conceived character. They spent a lot of film time making the point, through him, that the oligarchs selling weaponry to both sides may be more relevant than what the rebellion and first order think they're fighting for. This also echos Luke's struggle with understanding the force and balance.

The time spent on the island further explaining the force and the message of balance was useful.

Yoda's scene was wonderful. "Page turners they were not!" However the books ending up in the Millenium Falcon was noteworthy. Yoda's not entirely being truthful about these book's importance, but instead providing a lesson and a kick in the pants to Luke, who still can't let go, and can't move forward.

Luke's characterization was great. It was painful waiting for his first line as I was really expecting it to be hamfisted, but it worked out. I could have done with a little less of the he-said-she-said, but it fits with the Luke character to hide his exact greatest failure. The use of the force through the movie was well executed and incremental - by the time we see Luke facetime across the galaxy, we'd already seen Snoke force push/choke for a distance, and Rey and Kylo more than sense each other's thoughts, even to the point where kylo has water from the rain from the planet Rey was on.

I was disappointed that we don't learn more about Rey's ancestry, nor Snoke's history. Yes, the movie suggests she comes from nothing, and this does play well with the idea that 1) the force itself creates balance, so if a Kylo exists then so must a Rey and 2) the force can exhibit in anyone, even without ancestry. Still, the earlier movies play a lot on the premise of creating more powerful force users through ancestry, and indeed even in this movie Snoke makes a few comments that suggest he'd like to improve on Kylo.

I was hoping and glad to see that Captain Phantasma whatever her name is came back, and that this fight happened. I still hold out some small hope she escaped after falling into the fiery explosion below, but probably not. I think Finn has moved passed that, it's no longer holding him back and the events of this movie, I believe, have set is course more firmly on the "right" path, rather than trying to escape and save himself. The scene with him attempting to escape and meeting rose was very well done, from excited fan to taking out the trash - just another day being a technician, which really helped after the rather heavy "my sister died" scene. She doesn't even hesitate. I hope to see more of her.

Given that Disney is, I strongly suspect, intentionally avoiding relationship entanglements for Rey and Kylo for this series, having a budding relationship in Finn and Rose could be interesting. They may have shoved that in simply to firm Finn's resolve that the rebellion is about love and helping others, and is therefore worth it, but they could do more with that. Either that or they're setting things up perfectly for a really heavy hitting death in the final movie.

I can't get over the visuals presented. It's comic-book like in framing in so many scenes, and the animals and other races - the crystal foxes for instance - were simply beautiful, vivid, real, and had character - they weren't merely set pieces.

I think Leia was done superbly. Well acted, and well written. The angel floating in space was another "comic book" shot, but it showed a power/strength that she has always had, but so rarely demonstrated. We're back to the strong blaster-wielding woman who was working with Luke and Han and the others to escape the death star, except rather than a loud, brash femme fatale, we get a calm, strong, and powerful woman who doesn't get flustered but does what needs to be done. I believe it would have been a disservice to her to end without showing her as the powerful being that she was. They could have written a "pat" ending for her into the movie, but they can do that just as easily in the next movie.

Luke is gone. She's essentially handed the reins to Poe (all the other leaders are gone), and there won't be much to do to suggest that she's done leading the rebellion. It wouldn't surprise me if they already filmed scenes for this possibility and accounted for it in the script planning process, or that she signed an agreement to allow her digital likeness to be used in brief scenes for this purpose. Who knows, but I doubt it'll be handled badly.

The rebellion has been leveled back into a scrappy little group of people (they can all fit onto the Falcon, they've been decimated so thoroughly). Kylo is in power, but again only through fear and force, and his demons are now unchecked - he leads through impulses, fear, and anger. Rey has learned more about herself, the force, and has had some small amount of training. Poe, Finn, and Rose are the buddy comedy crew.

It was a rush, altogether too much to put into one movie, but probably better than expanding it into two.

And we're well set for the next movie.

Yeah the general consensus I've among the fans/nerds is that this movie was really bad, but I disagree almost completely.

To get my issues out of the way (mostly nerd nitpicks):
It felt like they kinda forgot about Finn. I didn't have a huge problem with Rose, but their subplot really felt like they just needed to give them something to do. The heavy-handedness about how terrible the rich people are was pretty lame.

I feel like Hux needs to be more intimidating. They've been setting up this power struggle between Kylo and Hux and it worked when Snoke was alive, but in order for that to be effective, we need to show what strengths Hux has over Kylo. I figure there will be some kind of Hux-lead coup against Kylo in IX, but I would've done more to set up his strengths here. Maybe just showing general anger by the troops in the first order over letting the resistance get away so Kylo Ren can settle a personal grudge.

I wish C3PO was in this one. That new protocol droid filled a bit of the void, but without the red arm, it was just too different. (though seriously, what happened to his red arm?)

There were so many great chances for Leia to die, and she lived through the entire movie. Obviously they couldn't predict that they'd need to write her out, but that was unfortunate for them, and I suspect will weaken IX a bit.

This Rose bitch better back off of Finn. He belongs with Poe and I will hear nothing to the contrary.

Also, it felt like they were trying to set up Rey being romantically interested in Finn? I like both characters, but there has been nothing that has shown them to be anything more than friends.

So Phasma's armor can stop simple blasters? Why don't all stormtroopers have that armor?

Admiral Akbar deserved better.



Now the good:
Rey and Ren were great. Every scene they were in together was compelling and interesting. They have great chemistry.

I loved how they handled Snoke. We don't need a rehash of the emperor. Its not Snoke's story. Having Kylo try (and probably fail) to wield the same authority is way more interesting than another Palpatine.

I love Poe and his entire subplot felt like a better take on "more realistic military in Star wars" than rogue one. I love that it probably could've all been avoided if Hodo just told Poe her plan, but she just didn't feel like she had to justify herself.

That scene when she does hyperspace into the Star Destroyer and it just goes silent...amazing. I was floored.

Yoda felt much more like OT Yoda. When he first came back I groaned a bit, but they used him well and I liked to see him.

Mark Hamill did a great job. Him trying to kill Ben was a real moment that I would never have thought they'd do anything like.

I was dreading the porgs, but they weren't overused to the point of being annoying, like I feared.

There were a few moments the quippyness was a bit much but in general I thought it was fine and added some nice humor.

After two years of saying that its better if Rey isn't related to anyone important, that scene where Kylo tells her that was cathartic.

I fanboy-squealed with the two suns when luke died. I suspect he'll be a ghost in IX though. Maybe to Kylo and Rey.



Probably more stuff I'm forgetting, but I think this was a better movie than TFA. Super-happy with it.

I'm still on my phone so keeping it brief, but: I liked the movie, though too much set piece battles and ever-the-same-climactic-battle thing.
The "your parents were nobodies" is a clear echo/counterpoint to both Anakin's ancestry on one hand, and the "no, I am your father" reveal in ESB.
The codebreaker seemed likewise a counter to Calrissian, to me. Similar "I have to betray you to save me", different outcome and final moral choice.
Quite a few "too accidental" stuff in the movie, though.
And yes, Luke not actually being there had been made clear in a dozen ways -his feet not scuffing the salt was a very clear indicator too.
Snoke being killed off firmly places him in the Dooku/Maul category of villains, rather than Palpatine. In the OT the master is the big bad, and the apprentice is a smoke screen. Here, the opposite.
I do think the intention was to leave Leia die in the third movie, and having a mother turn her son, as a son saves the father in the OT, again a similar story...but now impossible. I agree Leia needed to be shown as a stronger character and dieing in space would have been weak. She could've died heroically in the base defense, offering a new hope (hah!) to the survivors, though, and I doubt an off-screen death will be as good as far as closure goes. Iirc, when Rogue One came out, it was said they won't use similar cgi techniques to bring her back in IX, though such things can always be walked back.

blotsfan said:

I loved how they handled Snoke. We don't need a rehash of the emperor. Its not Snoke's story.

Click to expand...

Edit: Actually I know this is the spoiler thread but lets still push that spoiler off the one line that shows up on the New Posts thread.

That whole scene validated Kylo for me. Yes he can be a bit too emo for a Sith at times...but he just killed & supplanted his master & followed it up by trying to turn another Force user to his side with promises of power. Darth Bane would have appoved.

Just got back from it. I'm still wiping tears away.

I'm also disappointed we learned nothing about Snoke. I was hoping for some big reveal, but like Rey's parents, it winds up being a whole lot of nothing. Kind of a waste of a mystery, honestly. Which is par for the course with anything involving JJ Abrams.

I wasn't crazy about the stuff with Poe, Finn, and Rose. I don't know what it is, but they just don't resonate with me. I still don't really get what Finn's character is supposed to be or what his purpose is in these movies. Poe is mildly more interesting. First time Rose was on the screen, I immediately thought of the Fan Girl character from Nostalgia Critic. And I find Rey still doesn't resonate with me. I don't know what it is. It's not the "Mary Sue" bullshit. I just find all the new cast dull. Maybe I'm hooked too much on the old movies.

But everything with Luke? Amazing. Hamil really brought the goods. Him and Fisher, but that's no surprise. Their short scene was so beautiful, especially when their music from the old movies played. And then his showdown with Kyle Ren; I noticed immediately that he fought defensively, which only pissed off Ren even more.

And then everything with Luke in the final act. Wow. Ren's reaction to both him and the Millenium Falcon was brilliant.

Luke's send-off left me weeping. I don't know why it hit me so hard. We first saw him admiring a sunset and his journey ends admiring a sunset. Along with the same music that introduced him. It was beautifully shot and perfectly timed. It's strange that Han Solo's send-off didn't affect me at all. Largely because I saw it coming a mile away when I realized he was filling the "Obi Wan" role. I knew Luke would likely die at the end of this, but wow.

Overall, I liked it. Some criticisms (like that they didn't show how Rey got to the Millenium Falcon at the end), but I definitely liked it more than The Force Awakens.

Delurking because I have lots of thoughts and most of my friends haven't seen the dang thing yet, so I can't discuss IRL! (Hopefully this is enough header to foil the new post spoiler-breaking preview thingamajig...)

So, overall, I really enjoyed it. Like you all, there were a few nitpicks, but it mostly hit all the right notes for me. As a hardened cynic, I was happy that, in the event of the third movie totally sucking, I'll be happy with the story "as is" with TFA and TLJ as a doublet (which I can't say I would've been with ANH and ESB without RoTJ). Despite that, I'm still excited to see how things wrap up in IX. I was a little surprised at how comedic the film felt - much of it felt like it was really walking the edge of fourth-wall-breaking "wink wink" jokes; nevertheless, it didn't feel like it went too far for me.

Snoke: I'm happy to have him out of the way and let Kylo Ren take over. All the principal protagonists treat Kylo Ren as the "main bad guy" - they only talk about Snoke as related to the corruption of Ben Solo in TFA and TLJ, unlike the Emperor, whose importance in the hierarchy of the Empire was widely discussed. I would like to hear about Snoke's history in IX, but I won't be upset if that's relegated to non-movie sources. His death made me wonder if Blue Ghosting is a Jedi-only phenomenon, or if there's any chance of seeing Snoke or Palpatine as a ghostly mentor for Kylo Ren in IX?

Rey and Kylo Ren: great interaction there, and I let myself believe for a split second that she might convince him post-Snoke/Praetorian Guard fight to help her take down the First Order, (even though logically we need a force-wielding baddie to keep the story a bit more even, alas). As regards Rey's parentage, I hope that it's true that her parents aren't part of the Skywalker Dynasty or any other major legacy, but I thought it possible that Kylo Ren might be lying to her to try to sway her to his side (and that there's actually more to her parentage than was stated). I got a definite "Mirror of Erised" feeling from Rey's time in the Dark Side cave, but thought that it could've been expanded a bit (why is the conflict only about parents?)

Leia: I'm actually glad that they made the decision to keep her alive, if only to see the reunion between her and (mirage) Luke near the end of the film. I'm also glad that she got to demonstrate that her command of the Force is truly formidable, with her self-rescue from the vacuum of space!

Luke: loved everything about his performance, which felt very true to his original character tempered by age, experience, and fear. I adored his discussion of the Force with Rey, particularly as it "reset" things back to the original trilogy and basically swept away the dang midichlorian nonsense from the prequels. His scene with Yoda was grand, and it was so nice to see Yoda as a practical effect once again! I also loved Luke's send-off with the binary sunset, and fully expect to see him as a blue ghost in IX.

Poe: Some serious lessons for the flyboy! It'll be interesting to see where he takes that if/when he assumes greater leadership in IX - we already saw shades of philosophical change at the end when he calls off the full-frontal assault on the battering ram cannon. Also not sure what to make of the possible Poe/Rey pairing (now that Finn's apparently entrangled with Rose...like @blotsfan, I'd prefer a Poe and Finn endgame, but I doubt that's in Disney's plans). Also, the scene where Poe gives BB-8 belly skritches is one of my favorite things ever.

Finn and Rose: Their side-quest was one of the things that took me out of the movie a bit, since it made me actually think about time. With <6 hours of fuel for the Rebel fleet, they had to travel the galaxy to a random planet, look around a casino, be jailed, meet Benicio del Traitor, learn life lessons, go horseback riding, get back to the Star Destroyer, break into the laundry to get a costume change, and spectacularly fail their quest. That's ... a lot. Meanwhile, in that time, General Holdo could've sat down with the hundred or so remaining Rebels and gone over an actual plan, preventing much of the death and destruction precipitated by the mini-mutiny and un-tracking plan. Holdo's reticence struck me as a very plot-contrivance-y way of thinning the Rebel herd of unnecessary redshirts.

Phasma: useless again, sadly. Why can't they figure out something interesting to do with her character?

Hux: Weirdly underpowered, to the point that I wonder if he's being portrayed as weak as a diversion to be "shocking" if he ends up developing some level of badassery and attempting a power grab from Kylo Ren in IX.

Porgs, etc.: Glad the porgs were pretty minimally used. The cat/horse things were neat, the walrus/cow beasts felt suitably weird, and I did love the minor stuff (like a random huge fish swimming in a background shot of Acht-to)

Music: I love John Williams and all the original themes which showed up dutifully when called, but I can't say that I picked up on any new leitmotifs in this movie (unlike in my first viewing of TFA, when I fell in love with both Rey's theme and the X-wing/hero theme instantly). Maybe they'll pop more in my second viewing!

Phew! So many words. Looking forward to re-watching in a week or so to see what I missed in the first round!

So I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said. My review more or less falls in with @stienman and @netsirk.

That being said, what's up with the fan rating of the movie on Rotten Tomatoes? I'm just not seeing the reason for the fan rage.

Yeah, a lot of friends around here don't seem to like it much either but beyond some things I do agree with (really, the ship gets knocked around just do badly that the executioner can't strike down anymore and all troopers are hurt or knocked down but Rose and Finn can run away? That's a very specific level of being hit), and the observation that in a lot of ways it's a bit formulaic...they can't offer much in the way of actual arguments.
It's not my new favorite, but I really don't get the backlash.

Terrik said:

That being said, what's up with the fan rating of the movie on Rotten Tomatoes? I'm just not seeing the reason for the fan rage.

Click to expand...

Not enough shipping between my OTP. They killed off <character I like>. They didn't kill off <character I don't like>. Too much CGI. Not enough CGI. Too much like the OT. Not enough like the OT.

Pick any of the above. With how big the movie is & the increasing tendency of fanboys to assume that just because they like something it must pander to them & only to them I wouldn't trust any fan review of a big budgt movie nowadays.

Apparently, many didn't like how the Force was used in new ways.

Like Leia "flying" (or, you know, using the Force to pull herself towards the ship, which was amazing). Or the cross-galaxy "phone call." Or Luke's big reveal. Or how Rey went from being trained for 3 days to lifting a crap ton of rocks.

They don't seem to understand that maybe the Force or how people use it has evolved. Especially the two most powerful who scare the bejeesus out of a Jedi master.

ThatNickGuy said:

Like Leia "flying" (or, you know, using the Force to pull herself towards the ship, which was amazing).

Click to expand...

Man, I don't mind that in theory, but it looked really dumb.

Terrik said:

That being said, what's up with the fan rating of the movie on Rotten Tomatoes? I'm just not seeing the reason for the fan rage.

Click to expand...

The few people I’ve seen hate it are readers of the old book series with Mara.

Short version: I thought it was pretty good. The pacing is awkward, as they needed time to pass for Rey, but for the Resistance to be in the same place while still doing something. It was probably longer than it needed to be. I think a good way to sum it up is an okay story, but with many strong and memorable scenes.

Yoda's cameo was great. The moment I saw him, I was nervous it would be a garbage cameo like those in Rogue One, but I had nothing to worry about.

The audience went wild when the duel at the end cut to Luke projecting himself from his island.

I'll have to see it again to really cement my opinion of it.

I'm really curious where things will go with the next movie and how much needs to change from the prior plans. The Resistance is in shambles, but the First Order is being led by a dangerous man-children prone to senseless temper tantrums. Kylo Ren is no Palpatine. He can't hold an empire together.

Just got back from seeing it, and... I think I need to process it.


Luke: "This isn't going to go the way you think it will"

Boy was he right. In some ways, this movie wasn't at all what I was expecting, and I liked those things. In others, it was pretty much exactly what I expected, and those are the moments that felt like a let down.

I've seen that people have been complaining about the new force powers, to which I say... it's magic. Oh, the force can't travel that far a distance, the force can't project an image that far away... why? What is time and space to the force?

I really liked Rose, but she's going to be out of luck when it's revealed that Finn and Poe are destined to be together. Or maybe they can all be together, I won't judge.

The Finn and Rose plot, however, was the weakest part of the film. "It was worth it, though." What? You messed up the casino of some rich jerks, that was worth dying? Aren't you trying to save your friends and stop an evil empire? But you smashed some windows... totes worth. That whole scene seemed to have big tonal problems, and just didn't fit.

Also, the jokes. I liked most of the humor in this film. But I felt like there was about 20% too much of it. It felt like there was a Disney exec with a stopwatch sitting nearby, and every five minutes he reminded them that there needs to be regular jokes, because their metrics show that audiences respond best to jokes every five minutes.

Holdo needed more screen time. She seemed really interesting, but we learn nothing about her other than her one act at the end. That hyperspace scene though... in a packed audience, when the sound cut out and it all went dark, it was dead silent in the theater.


One interesting thing I noticed is that the leadership in the New Order seem to be mostly young and male, and the leadership in the Resistance (before they all die) all skew to the older and more female. I found that an interesting dichotomy.

Spoiler paragraph for the forum preview: Praesent commodo cursus magna, vel scelerisque nisl consectetur et. Donec sed odio dui. Etiam porta sem malesuada magna mollis euismod. Morbi leo risus, porta ac consectetur ac, vestibulum at eros. Vivamus sagittis lacus vel augue laoreet rutrum faucibus dolor auctor. Integer posuere erat a ante venenatis dapibus posuere velit aliquet.

There were some pacing problems, but I think the movie mostly has middle-of-the-trilogy-itis. It felt sort of incomplete, but that's because it's setting up the last movie.

I liked that they made Rey's family not special (actually they were dicks, if the story is true). I like that she's a hero on her own, not because of some family connection.

I think Snoke's death worked. Because the story is Ben being corrupted and (hopefully) redeemed. Snoke was trying to create a new Darth Vader from the Skywalker bloodline, but other than that what do we need to know? Maybe there will be a novel about Snoke's backstory for the die-hard fans who must know absolutely every detail, but for the movie Snoke's backstory simply doesn't matter, the same that Palpatine's backstory didn't matter in the OT (we knew very little about him until the prequels). And if Ben/Kylo is going to get a redemption arc, it really did need to start in this movie, and him killing Snoke--his Master and corruptor--to save Rey makes sense. The main story has the entire First Order as the villain (with Hux as its 'face'), Snoke wasn't even that important villain-wise except for his power over Ben Solo.

I like the addition of Rose. It seems she's supposed to represent the average people caught up in the war. Given her backstory and the interaction with the kids in the stable, I'm wondering if they've set up her and Finn leading a 'slave rebellion' the help the Resistance in the third movie.

Didn't like Benicio Del Torro's character. I have no idea what his purpose was. Everything that happened could have happened without him. Though, I think my dislike is also due to my expectations, because when Maz told them to find a code breaker at a casino, my mind instantly went to... Lando! And when they found the guy with the lapel pin and we see his face...hey, that's not Billy Dee Williams. And then they get thrown into jail and their mysterious cellmate wakes up and...still not Billy Dee Williams. Lando could have done everything Del Torro's character did (except the betrayal part) and return to the Resistance to give Leia some hope that she still has at least one ally left, who can maybe call in some favors to help in the next movie. Especially since they kept talking about Outer Rim allies. If Lando isn't one of those allies in the next movie, I will be really disappointed.

Princess Leia. While this is mostly Rey's story, I think it's also been Leia's story as well. And for Leia's story to end with hope and a happy ending (especially after Han and Luke have died), she needs to get her son back (which is why I really think Kylo Ren needs to be redeemed) and see the Resistance win. And for Leia to get her good, hopeful Star Wars ending, I think they need to recast the role. They don't have to pretend Carrie Fisher didn't die and find someone to imitate her (nobody can). But maybe someone like Meryl Streep could step in and give Leia the ending that Carrie wasn't able to.

Much like the first movie, I just sit there and wonder how much of Ben's story could have been changed if Luke and Leia had sat Ben down on the first day of Jedi training and just told him the whole true story of their family history. No way Luke didn't know it between talking to the ghosts of Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda.

I'm betting snoke told him that they lied.

blotsfan said:

I'm betting snoke told him that they lied.

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Based on Luke's attitude towards the dark side of the island, I bet they decided ignorance was the best course, OR they gave the barest of barebones stories.[DOUBLEPOST=1513560090,1513559767][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, I wish the movies would go deeper into the philosophies of the force instead of always going "light side and dark side have sword fight now." I was really going from Luke's talks that we were going to tread into the Gray Jedi zone, but NOPE.

S-s-s-spoiler foiler! Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lambzy divey - a kiddledy divey too (wouldn't you?) 'Twas brillig and the slivey toves did gyre and gimbal in the wabe, all mimsy were the borogroves, and the mome raths outgrabe!

Righty-o.

Sara_2814 said:

Didn't like Benicio Del Torro's character. I have no idea what his purpose was. Everything that happened could have happened without him. Though, I think my dislike is also due to my expectations, because when Maz told them to find a code breaker at a casino, my mind instantly went to... Lando!

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Oh man, Lando showing up would have been AWESOME. Though not if he had to fulfill the role that existed in the movie - I'd've been gutted if he had to be a traitor to advance the plot in TLJ. I wonder if Billy Dee Williams would be willing to come back for IX?

I agree that BDT's character was weird - they spent too much time giving him a wee bit of goodness (giving the necklace back) if he doesn't have some role to play in the next movie. I was actually expecting Phasma to kill BDT once they found out that his information about the cloaked Resistance ships was valid. The First Order has no good reason to leave him alive, unless they intend to exploit his code-breaking abilities to do further tracking/espionage in IX.

Sara_2814 said:

And for Leia's story to end with hope and a happy ending (especially after Han and Luke have died), she needs to get her son back (which is why I really think Kylo Ren needs to be redeemed) and see the Resistance win. And for Leia to get her good, hopeful Star Wars ending, I think they need to recast the role. They don't have to pretend Carrie Fisher didn't die and find someone to imitate her (nobody can). But maybe someone like Meryl Streep could step in and give Leia the ending that Carrie wasn't able to.

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I'm of two minds on this front - I'd love to see Leia get an awesome ending, but Leia is Carrie Fisher in my mind. For me, recasting would require an explanation for such a drastic change in appearance/voice/etc. (a drastic accident that requires Leia to be in full facial bandages? life-support requirements resulting in a benevolent version of Darth Vader?). I'd rather they did something that cobbled together existing footage to show a death early on in IX (doing something awesomely heroic, ideally) and then coming back as a (preferably older) blue ghost at the end to witness the redemption of Ben Solo (if the story ends up going that way).

Ravenpoe said:

I really liked Rose, but she's going to be out of luck when it's revealed that Finn and Poe are destined to be together. Or maybe they can all be together, I won't judge.

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Disney needs to get on the Poe-Finn-Rose threesome bandwagon STAT

Ravenpoe said:

The Finn and Rose plot, however, was the weakest part of the film. "It was worth it, though." What? You messed up the casino of some rich jerks, that was worth dying? Aren't you trying to save your friends and stop an evil empire? But you smashed some windows... totes worth. That whole scene seemed to have big tonal problems, and just didn't fit.

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Don't forget, they also freed the herd of cat-horse things and inspired the young stable kids to support the Resistance! Seriously, though, that was the sort of cheesy line that heroes say in movies when they're about to die, whereas in reality, they'd likely be, y'know, trying to hide in the tall grass and swearing up a blue streak.

blotsfan said:

ThatNickGuy said:

Like Leia "flying" (or, you know, using the Force to pull herself towards the ship, which was amazing).

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Man, I don't mind that in theory, but it looked really dumb.

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The full-body shot looked sort of stiff and awkward, I agree, but I liked the detail shots of her hands and face - they could've done a super zoomed out shot where she moves back to the ship and is only a spot of light or somesuch to perhaps make it look a little less wacky.

ThatNickGuy said:

They don't seem to understand that maybe the Force or how people use it has evolved. Especially the two most powerful who scare the bejeesus out of a Jedi master.

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I wonder how many of those who didn't like the film grew up watching the prequel trilogy as children/young teens. I have some cousins who genuinely like the prequels (having enjoyed them when young) and latch on to the Jedi mythology associated with those movies, and thus have issues when things break prequel "rules" (needing to train
Jedi when young, Midichlorians, etc.).

Dei said:

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Usually after trying to impress her by riding a Shaak.

Dei said:

Much like the first movie, I just sit there and wonder how much of Ben's story could have been changed if Luke and Leia had sat Ben down on the first day of Jedi training and just told him the whole true story of their family history. No way Luke didn't know it between talking to the ghosts of Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda.

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Dei said:

Based on Luke's attitude towards the dark side of the island, I bet they decided ignorance was the best course,

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They probably told him something which was true "from a certain point of view." THANKS OBI WAN.

New Post Spoiler Breaker: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Vestibulum nec faucibus risus, a porttitor purus. Phasellus dapibus vitae nunc sed consequat. Quisque sagittis arcu vel ante euismod ultricies. Aliquam scelerisque semper auctor. Fusce vel pellentesque augue. Curabitur condimentum ipsum neque, ac euismod justo convallis id. Nulla varius ultrices lorem, non venenatis quam efficitur vitae. Donec tristique diam leo, ut luctus neque iaculis sit amet. Suspendisse nibh purus, volutpat id quam ac, auctor porttitor turpis. Phasellus non blandit ipsum, id laoreet ipsum. Integer et consectetur erat.


I wanted to address a few more thoughts here.

First, I thought the new force powers were cool. I really have no problem with expanding what the Force can do. We only know the powers we have seen because those were the ones discussed. It makes total sense for more variations or entire new ones to show up in each new movie or work.

Second,

Sara_2814 said:

Didn't like Benicio Del Torro's character. I have no idea what his purpose was. Everything that happened could have happened without him. Though, I think my dislike is also due to my expectations, because when Maz told them to find a code breaker at a casino, my mind instantly went to... Lando! And when they found the guy with the lapel pin and we see his face...hey, that's not Billy Dee Williams. And then they get thrown into jail and their mysterious cellmate wakes up and...still not Billy Dee Williams. Lando could have done everything Del Torro's character did (except the betrayal part) and return to the Resistance to give Leia some hope that she still has at least one ally left, who can maybe call in some favors to help in the next movie. Especially since they kept talking about Outer Rim allies. If Lando isn't one of those allies in the next movie, I will be really disappointed.

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Holy crap, I didn't even think about Lando! You are totally right, where is he? If he does not show up in 9 in some capacity then there is a real problem.


Last, they have already said that Leia is not going to be in episode 9. What they plan to do is still up to much speculation. The movie could be set many years after these two and Leia may have died offscreen, they could have her away attempting to help rebuild the New republic's government as that link proposes, or have a quick aside explaining her absence in some other way. I definitely do not want them to recast the part. Even if it is just as a stand-in we only see from the back or afar.

I expect a time jump, based on the closing scene.

And younglings.

Honestly the complaints I hear, and the two reviews I read, mostly point out that Rian Johnson didn't really leap off what JJ Abrams established. It was like he just decided he wanted to do his own movie, hated specific characters, and went with the screenplay that he wanted regardless of how anyone else felt. Mark Hamil for instance hated what they did to Luke, but he decided to trust in it only because he liked TFA more then he thought he would.

For instance, in TFA it's established that Luke had hidden the map so that they could find him when needed while he did something important (Han Solo hinted he was looking for a Jedi temple). They get there and he pretty much just wants to die and had no intention of leaving, so why make the map in the first place? Also, JJ Abrams plays up the importance and significance of Rey finding Anakin / Luke's old lightsaber, and ends with the big cliffhanger shot, only for Luke to toss it aside.

When it comes to things like Snoke, Rey's parents, etc, I think the issue is just the expectations. Palpatine was not exactly super established either, but they were fighting an empire, and an empire needs an emperor. Since the First Order was not an "empire" per say, they could have just had Kylo Ren be the main leader from the start, so by killing of Snoke by the second movie it make him feel pointless. Another big example of pointlessness is Luke "force projecting" himself into a fight, not dying because he is not there, but then dies anyways.

Could you imagine if the original trilogy Obi-Wan was fighting Darth Vader over future skype and then falls over dead from the strain? You just feel more power when he is there, fighting for his friends, becoming a martyr.

Be aware I am not saying it's a bad movie, I just felt like the director just didn't really want to prop up the series like JJ Abrams did in the first one, it almost felt like he went out of his way to counter any expectations the fans had, and that is why fans are a bit lukewarm about it.

ScytheRexx said:

Be aware I am not saying it's a bad movie, I just felt like the director just didn't really want to prop up the series like JJ Abrams did in the first one, it almost felt like he went out of his way to counter any expectations the fans had, and that is why fans are a bit lukewarm about it.

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JJ Abrams was still producing, so if he had a problem with any of this, he had the power to step in. He's already fired the intended director of Episode IX and will be directing it himself. So the choices in Last Jedi we're at least done with a lack of disapproval.

But I think going against expectations was the big thing. I didn't sense any disdain for the audience, as there were several crowd pleaser moments. The word I've heard elsewhere is that this is a "challenging" movie for fans, and a lot of Star Wars fans feel challenged enough having to put up with the prequels being not what they wanted. But like you said, that doesn't make it a bad movie.

And then some people expected this to be Empire in every way, which is ridiculous.

A heads up to @sixpackshaker and others posting memes in this thread. Tapatalk will display image previews for threads. It's too late for me now, but in the future please take note of this.

DarkAudit said:

A heads up to @sixpackshaker and others posting memes in this thread. Tapatalk will display image previews for threads. It's too late for me now, but in the future please take note of this.

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Good to know, I honestly didn't know. Sorry you got spoiled

Bubble181 said:

Good to know, I honestly didn't know. Sorry you got spoiled

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Tapatalk will also ignore spoiler tags in previews, so be aware of that, too.

DarkAudit said:

Tapatalk will also ignore spoiler tags in previews, so be aware of that, too.

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Tapatalk

Zero Esc said:

JJ Abrams was still producing, so if he had a problem with any of this, he had the power to step in. He's already fired the intended director of Episode IX and will be directing it himself. So the choices in Last Jedi we're at least done with a lack of disapproval.

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Did HE fire the intended director, or did Disney / Lucasfilm? There is a big difference here. From the little research I did, it was because Kathleen Kennedy didn't like him.

One of the first things I learned in film school was that there are different levels of "producer" in the making of a film. You have the top producers which are usually the ones that run the studios or divisions (think Kevin Feige or Kathleen Kennedy) and have total story veto power, then you have the standard "executive producers" (which based on the credits, is where JJ Abrams falls), who basically help manage the film (either budget, logistic, etc.) and setup, but don't have any creative slack, as they are usually on the same level as the director and must answer to the producers themselves.

Then you even have "associate producer" which it basically a glorified "thanks" from the studio. If unsure what I mean by that, I could wander onto a set one day and just talk with the director and get a coffee, even though I was not working on the movie, and get an associate producer credit for the film in the end because the director liked me. It's always been considered more as a honorary, even though you hold as much clout on the film as the key grip.

While I am sure JJ Abrams did likely sign off on it in the end, we have no idea how much approval, or disapproval, he may have given to the story Rian wrote. It could be that he didn't really like the idea, but someone like Kathleen Kennedy or Ram Bergman (which are listed as the top producers) decided to side with Rian's vision of the whole thing (Ram and Rian worked on Looper together), or someone at Disney preferred it, and JJ Abrams had to simply back down or risk losing his place in the series. Again, as an executive producer, he does not have any actual clout over Rian.

Standing beneath this serene sky, overlooking these broad fields now reposing from the labors of the waning year, the mighty Alleghenies dimly towering before us, the graves of our brethren beneath our feet, it is with hesitation that I raise my poor voice to break the eloquent silence of God and Nature. But the duty to which you have called me must be performed;—grant me, I pray you, your indulgence and your sympathy.

ScytheRexx said:

For instance, in TFA it's established that Luke had hidden the map so that they could find him when needed while he did something important (Han Solo hinted he was looking for a Jedi temple). They get there and he pretty much just wants to die and had no intention of leaving, so why make the map in the first place?

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I always thought of the map as just a MacGuffin - keeping the plot moving while introducing all the new main players in the series (and to get that awesomely beautiful 3-D map shot they use as Han waxes nostalgic on the Falcon, of course). Since R2 was key to interpreting the map anyway, Rey wouldn't have been hindered in her journey to find Luke if R2 had contained the entire map and still switched himself back on at the very end of TFA. Also, I presume that Luke was the one who created the map and its missing fragment, but I don't know why he would've left it in the hands of Lor San Tekka (Max von Sydow) and yet not made the connection when Rey mentions that she's from Jakku ("Oh yeah - that's where my old buddy who was super into Jedi lore lives [to whom I (probably) directly handed the map fragment you used to find me]...wonder if there's a connection?"), unless he was just trying to obfuscate. Luke's retreat to Acht-to had all the hallmarks of trying to hide forever; understnadable, given his feelings of guilt over what happened with the new temple and fear that history would repeat itself.

ScytheRexx said:

Also, JJ Abrams plays up the importance and significance of Rey finding Anakin / Luke's old lightsaber, and ends with the big cliffhanger shot, only for Luke to toss it aside.

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I actually loved this part, both as a way to cement that Luke had truly changed from his earlier, idealistic self, and as a total "guess what, fanbois, these characters are going to tell their own story, not the one you think it should be" moment. It really fit in with the whole idea that Luke discusses about "legends" potentially doing as much harm as good, since someone who is a living legend remains fallible. (Dead legends have the luxury of not making any future mistakes!)

ScytheRexx said:

When it comes to things like Snoke, Rey's parents, etc, I think the issue is just the expectations. Palpatine was not exactly super established either, but they were fighting an empire, and an empire needs an emperor. Since the First Order was not an "empire" per say, they could have just had Kylo Ren be the main leader from the start, so by killing of Snoke by the second movie it make him feel pointless.

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Kylo Ren modeled himself after his grandfather, so to me it makes sense that he needed a mentor for that to happen. I would've loved it if that mentor were the red (?) ghost of Palpatine instead of a mortal Snoke, but that ship has sailed.

The "lack of establishment" of the backstory isn't unique to Palpatine; the original trilogy really did just present a snapshot of everybody and focused on the action. By the end of RotJ we had established the flimsiest of family trees for the Skywalkers, we knew Han, Chewie, Lando, and Ackbar were solidly good guys, we knew that dead Jedi could reappear as Force ghosts, light sabers are wicked cool and...that's about it. In the 40 years since then, we've been saddled with a metrick f*ckton of fanfiction (authorized and not) which can be a major hindrance to new additions to the canon, as something is bound to conflict with someone's/something's developed backstory. (Not to say that I don't love the expanded universe stuff in this and in other realms - plus, it's a great testament to how engaging the characters and the worlds are that fans want more stories about them!) These days, a character without a solid, detailed backstory seems out of place or incomplete, because the stable of established characters have been so well described over the years.

ScytheRexx said:

Another big example of pointlessness is Luke "force projecting" himself into a fight, not dying because he is not there, but then dies anyways. Could you imagine if the original trilogy Obi-Wan was fighting Darth Vader over future skype and then falls over dead from the strain? You just feel more power when he is there, fighting for his friends, becoming a martyr.

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I thought it was both smarter and more poignant that Luke's final scene was conducted remotely. The young cocky Luke would've flown in and could easily have been taken out by any errant blaster fire that he didn't quite manage to deflect. The wiser Luke realizes that his goal is to protect his friends and allow the Resistance to survive, and (echoing the original trilogy) that sometimes protecting your friends means not being physically there with them. Being able to do all that Luke did (surviving that much blaster fire, easily defending himself against Kylo Ren in a duel despite the age disparity) is not out of the realm of possibility for the Force, but it edges towards god-like powers, which seems more of a Dark Side ideology (i.e. it's the sort of thing that Kylo Ren believes is possible, and thus he was convinced by Luke's deception).

Meanwhile, Luke has his final moment with Leia, which he, and we, as the audience know is not in person, but as far as I could tell, Leia and the Resistance do not based on Rey's comment to Leia about Luke's eventual death. (I'll have to watch it again to see if Luke deliberately avoids touching Leia throughout their meeting, as I don't recall the specifics.) Thus Leia believes that she has seen her brother one last time, even though only Luke knows that their meeting was not in the same physical space.

ScytheRexx said:

...a bit lukewarm about it

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Luke cold!

(sorry, I had to)

Blah blah blah blah filler filler make a post
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I also liked Luke projecting for the battle. While stalling would've been the same, being a projection meant this was a fight neither combatant could win or lose. Actually defeating Luke would've given something to Kylo. Plus, I doubt Luke could've done the things hos projection did physically.

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries The Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die.

Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in his name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Now that the lorem ipsum is over...

Zero Esc said:

I also liked Luke projecting for the battle. While stalling would've been the same, being a projection meant this was a fight neither combatant could win or lose. Actually defeating Luke would've given something to Kylo. Plus, I doubt Luke could've done the things hos projection did physically.

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Yeah, saber-reflecting a constant barrage from 40 AT-AT turbolaser cannons would have been a pretty tall order.


Also:

Once again want to mention I didn't dislike the movie, just explaining why the backlash with fans has been high. The movie felt like it knew the expectations going in and, for the most part, wanted to screw with them. For a general audiences or critics that might seem refreshing, but for a fandom,the idea of outright subverting expectation can be seen as a slight to said fandom.

Remember, these are the people that put hundred of hours into very delicate Snoke theories, almost crafting him a whole backstory out of nothing. Most fandoms are fine when the theory isn't correct, as long as the importance of the character still holds true, but when you put that much effort into something only to have it turn out to be "nothing", the fandom can be a bit volatile. This movie just had the misfortune of throwing a few of those at us, which makes it sting a little more to a lot of people.

This isn't my opinion, I really have no vested interest in Star Wars beyond a popcorn movie, I just felt people should understand a little bit why the fandom is turning on the movie so much.

I'm going to try not to rehash things you guys have already talked about, and just add my 2 cents. Overall, I really enjoyed it. I'm glad I skipped all the commercials, trailers, articles and speculation because I came in with almost no preconceived notions outside of any previous Star Wars knowledge, and I was immersed. I didn't know who or what was coming, and there were a few parts I was on the edge of my seat because I didn't know what they were going to do. Some decisions felt very much in line with the OT, other stuff was new twists. Yoda showing up was one of my favorite surprises, especially because his Force ghost was just there to call Luke on his bull. ("I've got a torch! I'm...gonna do it!...Gonna..do...it...!" "Humph. The balls you still do not have, Skywalker. Here to Thor this shit, I am." BOOM!)

I haven't seen as much fanboy bellyaching as you guys, so I was (ever so slightly) surprised to hear there was complaints. I honestly don't give it much thought since the OT has the good fortune to appear before the Internet Age and I think had it not, people would have ripped the retcons in ESB and RotJ to pieces. But one of the funniest criticisms I saw was one guy complaining about the emphasis on Leia because the OT "was about Luke Skywalker". Dude, have you watched the OT? I could agree with that statement about ANH, but ESB and RotJ were definitely ensemble pieces. Luke's story line stood out because the concept of a Jedi and the Force was new and shiny, but there was a hell of a lot more going on than just his story. And speaking of Leia, I did get misty-eyed a few times, knowing what real life has left us with., especially when R2 was chewing Luke out* and he pulls up the footage of her original call to Obi-wan for help. They really set up Leia to be the lynch-pin of the final movie, and I'm so sad that can't be the case.

It's funny Gas just posted the photo above, because I was going to mention one of the hardest things for me to watch because it was so uncomfortable. Not just because it looks like they CG'd Adam Drivers tiny, round head on a much larger body, and probably not creating the Marvel Moment** they were hoping for, but because it became that awful moment in Force-chat Roulette where some guy thinks it's totally okay to ambush you with his nudity and refuses to stop even when you flat-out tell him you're uncomfortable. Weinsteins exist even in a galaxy far, far away.

But best of all, I love that after all the moaning and temper-tantrums that TFA and Rogue One were putting too many women and too much diversity into Star Wars, Disney's response, "Oh, sorry, what did you say? MORE WOMEN! MORE DIVERSITY! YOUR LEADERS? WOMEN! YOUR FORCE USERS? WOMEN! YOUR BOBA FETT? WOMAN! DROPPING BOMBS? WOMEN! RAMMING SHIPS? WOMEN! EVIL STAFF? WOMEN! ONE WOMAN GETS HURT? BRING IN ANOTHER WOMAN! ALL THE WOMEN!!!!" Even Poe was like, "...that was not what I expected." Woo!






*I just noticed Luke gets yelled at a lot in this film. Probably to make up for the whining in ANH.
**You know what I mean. The moment in the recent Marvels films where the hero is all "Helllloooooooo, audience. Oops, I'm missing a shirt. Want to see that I went to the gym?"

ScytheRexx said:

Once again want to mention I didn't dislike the movie, just explaining why the backlash with fans has been high. The movie felt like it knew the expectations going in and, for the most part, wanted to screw with them. For a general audiences or critics that might seem refreshing, but for a fandom,the idea of outright subverting expectation can be seen as a slight to said fandom.

Remember, these are the people that put hundred of hours into very delicate Snoke theories, almost crafting him a whole backstory out of nothing. Most fandoms are fine when the theory isn't correct, as long as the importance of the character still holds true, but when you put that much effort into something only to have it turn out to be "nothing", the fandom can be a bit volatile. This movie just had the misfortune of throwing a few of those at us, which makes it sting a little more to a lot of people.

This isn't my opinion, I really have no vested interest in Star Wars beyond a popcorn movie, I just felt people should understand a little bit why the fandom is turning on the movie so much.

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I think you're right, it's just a little grating when those fans bemoan one movie for playing it safe, then get upset when the next movie messes with their expectations.

@Celt Z the crybaby shit has been hilarious. "Tgis isn't a real Star Wars movie cause WOMEN"

Are we still putting in beginner paragraphs because of things like previews and tapatalk? I'll just use this time to mention maybe you shouldn't use tapatalk, that app was always annoying to me anyway.

So then, on to the movie

The more I think about and decompress this movie, the more I like it. I liked it when I first walked out of the theater, as I said up there somewhere, but I also came away feeling sorta like "huh, I need to think about that."

On the subject of men and women in the movie, I did find it very interesting that the First Order is made up mostly of young men, with General Weasley being the head military honcho right behind Kylo and Snoke. Whereas if we look at the leadership of the resistance, there are a lot of older women in power. Star Wars has always been very fairy tale, and in the language of fairy tales and fables, young men tend to represent brash bravado and impulsiveness, and you can see this both in the First Order and in Poe, who is very prone to wanting to take risks and act without first thinking. Whereas in fables, older women tend to represent the voices of reason and wisdom. The wise grandmother character, the village elder, the oracle, the medicine woman, and you see this both in General Leia being the glue that holds the resistance together, and in General Holdo ultimately having a plan that would have worked were it not for Poe's impulsiveness destroying it.

At the same time, Holdo felt weak because she doesn't have enough time to be an established character. Had they built her up a little more, even just mentioning her name more often before she ultimately appears, would have helped given her more presence once she does take over. Simultaneously, if they had given some time to presenting the idea that maybe the resistance was afraid of a mole, it would have explained why she didn't just tell Poe her plan instead of leaving everyone to assume that there is no plan. I feel like one more pass over the script could have tightened up these holes.

Her outfit was dope though. She looked really cool and had a great visual flair to her, making her memorable in what little screen time she had. And she went out like a boss.

Ravenpoe said:

General Weasley

Click to expand...

On that note, I do feel like the characterization of Hux is falling flat. I really hoped for more out of him, beyond just petulant glances and one attempt at murdering an unconscious man.

Something Moviebob pointed out about the leaders of the New Order: with the Empire, there were clear allegories to the Nazi regime. But what's more known today? A similar movement, but led by young, cowardly pissants trying to act tough and live up to the same standards. I think it's a good analogy.

Ravenpoe said:

Are we still putting in beginner paragraphs because of things like previews and tapatalk? I'll just use this time to mention maybe you shouldn't use tapatalk, that app was always annoying to me anyway.

Click to expand...

Problem solved!

I still have mixed feelings and I'll need to see it again before I have that settled. Someone compared it to a Western and I can totally see that, right down to weird pacing necessitating a second viewing for me and having a second climax. Even if it ends up being the weakest of this trilogy, it was still decent.

My favorite joke in the film is Poe asking for General Hugs.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Pellentesque efficitur eleifend ligula, sit amet lacinia mi condimentum a. Vestibulum nibh erat, sodales non lacinia aliquam, ultricies vel orci. Aenean vulputate mi eget lorem feugiat suscipit. Praesent nisl massa, ornare quis molestie et, aliquet vel leo. Aenean sollicitudin vulputate sem, dictum bibendum leo sodales nec. Nullam gravida aliquet eros ut pulvinar. Nam metus turpis, iaculis quis metus nec, suscipit malesuada felis. Pellentesque vulputate luctus libero, ac dictum quam pretium sed. Phasellus id risus quis odio eleifend fermentum. Aliquam sit amet diam non est tincidunt lobortis in vitae neque. Donec tempor enim nec eros gravida consectetur. Etiam imperdiet auctor odio, nec mollis tellus facilisis faucibus. Nunc non ipsum accumsan, hendrerit enim sit amet, tempor odio. Vivamus aliquam tellus vel est vulputate molestie. In id ante quis ligula feugiat vehicula. Aliquam pharetra varius magna, eu semper libero eleifend eu.

Zero Esc said:

Problem solved!

I still have mixed feelings and I'll need to see it again before I have that settled. Someone compared it to a Western and I can totally see that, right down to weird pacing necessitating a second viewing for me and having a second climax. Even if it ends up being the weakest of this trilogy, it was still decent.

Click to expand...

I mean, I think I actually liked it just as much as TFA. Like Keltsy, I completely ignored/tuned out all trailers and promotional materials as much as I could. But yeah, people have been calling Star Wars a space-western for decades.

I liked it way more than Rogue One and mildly more than TFA. I can't elaborate more right now because I'm sitting on a can in a restaraunt bathroom.

I enjoyed the movie a lot... my question is.. how did Finn and Rose get back to the rebel base when they crashed literally 10 feet from the First Order... did no one try to capture or kill them? And why was the movie so comical at times it was like I went to go watch a comedy movie.

CrimsonSoul said:

I enjoyed the movie a lot... my question is.. how did Finn and Rose get back to the rebel base when they crashed literally 10 feet from the First Order... did no one try to capture or kill them?

Click to expand...

This is answered in the actual movie.

In a post-Jar Jar Binks franchise, none of the comic relief moments came across as particularly odious.

Because we've seen how bad it can get.

Dei said:

This is answered in the actual movie.

Click to expand...

Was it? I didn't notice that part if so?

Zero Esc said:

I think you're right, it's just a little grating when those fans bemoan one movie for playing it safe, then get upset when the next movie messes with their expectations.

Click to expand...

Realize, fans will always nitpick. Nitpicking does not automatically mean they dislike it. TFA is still sitting at a 88% Fan Fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes, even with the nitpicking on how "safe" it was, or how much of a mary sue the character of Rey was presented. People always nitpick the stuff they love, they just get over it if the movie hit the right buttons to suspend that in the theater. TLJ, however, hit a much harder cord, and is already in the rotten range of the fan ratings at %56.

Again, I ain't the biggest Star Wars fan, but just to go over what I personally felt, with TFA, I felt like the way the story was told was trying to pay homage to the characters of yore while also showing new people. It borrowed heavily from themes in the original trilogy, and so you can kind of see the little "love letters" to the fans, even in the weirdest moments. When I left TLJ, even as a non-fan, I could feel a weird sense of disrespect. I decided to look online and this review I think puts it better then I can, and it was promoting the movie positively.

"The Force Awakens and Rogue One: A Star Wars Story want to please you. They want to hit familiar beats and remind you why you love Star Wars. They are so much fun. But The Last Jedi doesn’t want to remind you of anything. It doesn’t care about your relationship with Star Wars. The only relationship that matters here is Rian Johnson’s relationship with Star Wars, and for the first time in a long time, here is a Star Wars movie with a proper point of view, one delivered by a storyteller who is unafraid to shatter a universe he loves, to break down the heroes that mean so much to him. A wise and noble Luke is easy. A Luke with regrets? That’s hard. That’s tough to swallow."

Click to expand...

Again, not a bad movie, but you don't feel like Rian was going into this hoping to hug the fandom, and let's be real, the fandom wants some coddling, even if they won't admit it. It's just the way nostalgia works.

ScytheRexx said:

Realize, fans will always nitpick. Nitpicking does not automatically mean they dislike it. TFA is still sitting at a 88% Fan Fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes, even with the nitpicking on how "safe" it was, or how much of a mary sue the character of Rey was presented. People always nitpick the stuff they love, they just get over it if the movie hit the right buttons to suspend that in the theater. TLJ, however, hit a much harder cord, and is already in the rotten range of the fan ratings at %56.

Again, I ain't the biggest Star Wars fan, but just to go over what I personally felt, with TFA, I felt like the way the story was told was trying to pay homage to the characters of yore while also showing new people. It borrowed heavily from themes in the original trilogy, and so you can kind of see the little "love letters" to the fans, even in the weirdest moments. When I left TLJ, even as a non-fan, I could feel a weird sense of disrespect. I decided to look online and this review I think puts it better then I can, and it was promoting the movie positively.

Again, not a bad movie, but you don't feel like Rian was going into this hoping to hug the fandom, and let's be real, the fandom wants some coddling, even if they won't admit it. It's just the way nostalgia works.

Click to expand...

Failure is the greatest teacher of all.

CrimsonSoul said:

Was it? I didn't notice that part if so?

Click to expand...

They crashed and skidded in under the blast door as it closed?

The shade is not very nice. But color's not the point. Just want to use it up, Make space in this joint.
I paint the door, sloppily, I paint the dog, the car. I look for something else, There's the local bar.
I paint the stools and beer taps. And Hilda's pretty dress. Someone has a problem, Seems I've made a mess.
Do not paint out of control. take a tip from me. If you have extra paint, best to leave it be.

Dei said:

They crashed and skidded in under the blast door as it closed?

Click to expand...

Yes. They managed to come in with the rebel retreat, crashed and skidded inside the base, and were fired upon by the rebels assuming that they were first order. They shouted and raised their hands, Poe called for a cease fire, and they emerged from the craft.

OH my favorite call back, HARDWARE WARS!

[DOUBLEPOST=1513635540,1513635436][/DOUBLEPOST]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_Wars[DOUBLEPOST=1513635661][/DOUBLEPOST]

I'm really amused by most people's top of the poster filler.

Dei said:

They crashed and skidded in under the blast door as it closed?

Click to expand...

No no no, not that part, the part where Finn was going to go Kamikaze on the battering ram then gets crashed out of the way right before he does it and Rose is all almost dead in her crashed ship, and kisses Finn... How did that get back from that part.

CrimsonSoul said:

No no no, not that part, the part where Finn was going to go Kamikaze on the battering ram then gets crashed out of the way right before he does it and Rose is all almost dead in her crashed ship, and kisses Finn... How did that get back from that part.

Click to expand...

My assumption is that they were below the viewing line of the larger vehicles, and then they made a break for it during other distractions.

CrimsonSoul said:

No no no, not that part, the part where Finn was going to go Kamikaze on the battering ram then gets crashed out of the way right before he does it and Rose is all almost dead in her crashed ship, and kisses Finn... How did that get back from that part.

Click to expand...

We do see Finn dragging Rose back on a sled through the main door and calling for a med pack (I actually thought she was a goner while she was still in the ship, so her survival was a nice surprise for me!), but it was awfully nice of the First Order to let Finn drag her back to safety when they were such sitting ducks...

Its that same suspension of disbelief seen in Rogue One after they successfully defeat Krennic and transmit the Death Star Plans. In that, there was enough time for Cassian and Jyn to make it down the 50-story Archive/Ginormous Transmitter building and hobble another mile or so away from the base of the building while the Death Star slooooooooooooooooooooooooowly got into position to fire, so they could have their poignant death scene in the most picturesque setting by the water. Movie (il)logic, yo.

netsirk said:

We do see Finn dragging Rose back on a sled through the main door and calling for a med pack (I actually thought she was a goner while she was still in the ship, so her survival was a nice surprise for me!), but it was awfully nice of the First Order to let Finn drag her back to safety when they were such sitting ducks...

Its that same suspension of disbelief seen in Rogue One after they successfully defeat Krennic and transmit the Death Star Plans. In that, there was enough time for Cassian and Jyn to make it down the 50-story Archive/Ginormous Transmitter building and hobble another mile or so away from the base of the building while the Death Star slooooooooooooooooooooooooowly got into position to fire, so they could have their poignant death scene in the most picturesque setting by the water. Movie (il)logic, yo.

Click to expand...

To be fair, someone was throwing a temper tantrum while Finn was running the sled in.

Dei said:

To be fair, someone was throwing a temper tantrum while Finn was running the sled in.

Click to expand...

"Do you think you got him?"

Apparently there’s a Wilhelm Scream just before Luke and Kylo face off. I’ll have to listen for it next time. It just isn’t Star Wars without poor Wilhelm.

Ehduduejfjcjjerjcjcjenjcjsjejcjduwbxgvtniekaksmcnejcjanzb I jdjeuxuwjrkcuejfjcjejeuxj1njc2irju4bhduajdjcjejdueh2ufuh3jf7cjtj3jaixj4jd7wjrufktnyn3usdubrjdixjeei8neivjjrjcu3jfudnrjduenfieieI kj3cijenrgjejckwk2ckkdkdi2jwroepspwlvjnwnskqkxjjrkwksjvji2kwkzjvjwkclhsiwkdkciqkdkzomajzggsgeghxnnvohwlxjzhahwjgjkalmwhjrjfjekzjdhejzkjjeskjr2jxjjhwjjducueuwjwiwi291ri5ktuxy6zuakzkfkropwovo3




I noticed a lot of people a questioning when Rey got the books but Yoda says while the tree is burning that young Rey has everything she needs. I assume he's talking more about qualities and intangibles but he's playful and cryptic enough I figured he knew she had taken the books even if he didn't put a whole lot of stock in them. I just can't recall if this happens before or after she leaves.

Parties A and B hereby agree to the following terms regarding the implementation of this service agreement (hereinafter the "Agreement"). Party A shall provide maintenance services for Party B's production hardware, which includes but is not limited to inspections, repair, and replacement of the machinery, electrical facilities, and other related hardware. Party A shall not be responsible for the production software used by Party B. Party A shall not be liable for any losses that Party B incurs as a result of software malfunctions, and shall be entitled to laugh at Party B for their shitty software.

Wait, books? I haven't seen the movie yet, but I thought paper wasn't supposed to exist in the Star Wars universe.

bhamv3 said:

Parties A and B hereby agree to the following terms regarding the implementation of this service agreement (hereinafter the "Agreement"). Party A shall provide maintenance services for Party B's production hardware, which includes but is not limited to inspections, repair, and replacement of the machinery, electrical facilities, and other related hardware. Party A shall not be responsible for the production software used by Party B. Party A shall not be liable for any losses that Party B incurs as a result of software malfunctions, and shall be entitled to laugh at Party B for their shitty software.

Wait, books? I haven't seen the movie yet, but I thought paper wasn't supposed to exist in the Star Wars universe.

Click to expand...

You know, I thought the same thing, because I'm one of those nerds that knows that Lucas never allowed paper to exist and everything had to be a datapad, but since they're supposed to be ANCIENT texts, I suppose paper had to exist at one point.

Far said:

Ehduduejfjcjjerjcjcjenjcjsjejcjduwbxgvtniekaksmcnejcjanzb I jdjeuxuwjrkcuejfjcjejeuxj1njc2irju4bhduajdjcjejdueh2ufuh3jf7cjtj3jaixj4jd7wjrufktnyn3usdubrjdixjeei8neivjjrjcu3jfudnrjduenfieieI kj3cijenrgjejckwk2ckkdkdi2jwroepspwlvjnwnskqkxjjrkwksjvji2kwkzjvjwkclhsiwkdkciqkdkzomajzggsgeghxnnvohwlxjzhahwjgjkalmwhjrjfjekzjdhejzkjjeskjr2jxjjhwjjducueuwjwiwi291ri5ktuxy6zuakzkfkropwovo3




I noticed a lot of people a questioning when Rey got the books but Yoda says while the tree is burning that young Rey has everything she needs. I assume he's talking more about qualities and intangibles but he's playful and cryptic enough I figured he knew she had taken the books even if he didn't put a whole lot of stock in them. I just can't recall if this happens before or after she leaves.

Click to expand...

I loved that. Really clever foreshadowing.

”Now he was a giant, so huge and defiant, but if he was tryin' to stop you denyin' that he's self-reliant, you'd soon be compliant, and no use in cryin' that you were a scientist merely supplyin' some data, not spyin'; his eyes would be eyein' ya, soon he'd be fryin' ya! Out of the fryin' pan, hung out for dryin', man! Then he's supplyin' the hurt! You'd be dyin', man! He'd break your neck just like snappin' a twig! I'm tellin' you, brother, this mother was big.”

When Yoda was chiding Luke, he indicated that all the information and more was contained elsewhere (holochron or something?) and that these books weren't the only source of what they contain.

However, there's not guarantee that she will have access to the digital version of the jedi library - nor that she should. Perhaps the ancient texts, containing just the core concepts and training, might be better.

Who knows. Either way, it was obvious in the film that she had them, so it will play a part in the next film. By the time Luke died I'm sure he knew she had them - he would have known when she originally took them if he hadn't closed himself off from the force. His re-awakening happened only after Yoda reminded him of his place in the puzzle.

 If we shadows have offended,
 Think but this, and all is mended—
 That you have but slumbered here
 While these visions did appear.
 And this weak and idle theme,
 No more yielding but a dream,
 Gentles, do not reprehend.
 If you pardon, we will mend.
 And, as I am an honest Puck,
 If we have unearnèd luck
 Now to ’scape the serpent’s tongue,
 We will make amends ere long.
 Else the Puck a liar call.
 So good night unto you all.
 Give me your hands if we be friends,
 And Robin shall restore amends.

There were a few points where the audience got really excited at our screening. Most of them are points you'd expect, such as the hyperdrive through Snoke's ship, or when Luke is revealed to be force projecting himself. The one that surprised me was at Yoda--not when he appeared, even the little kids perked up for that. But near the end, when he said, "Greatest teacher, failure is." Maybe I'm forgetting that being a quote from Empire or Jedi, or maybe because it was just a solid Luke and Yoda moment after so many years, but the people in our theater thought that was good shit.

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer’s head. There’s also Rick’s nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they’re not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick’s existential catchphrase “Wubba Lubba Dub Dub,” which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev’s Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon’s genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Rick & Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It’s for the ladies’ eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they’re within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid

I thought this was a great article about the critics/fans split.

https://www.theringer.com/platform/...eaction-reddit-fans?__twitter_impression=true

Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.
Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-eight million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.
This planet has—or rather had—a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn’t the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.
And so the problem remained; lots of the people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches.

blotsfan said:

I thought this was a great article about the critics/fans split.

https://www.theringer.com/platform/...eaction-reddit-fans?__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

I'm happy with Johnson shaking things up. I definitely don't want a story that's written to try and please everyone.

And the fact that so many entitled crybabies are throwing tantrums on the internet over it makes me like Snoke's sudden death even more.

Celt Z said:

It's funny Gas just posted the photo above, because I was going to mention one of the hardest things for me to watch because it was so uncomfortable. Not just because it looks like they CG'd Adam Drivers tiny, round head on a much larger body, and probably not creating the Marvel Moment** they were hoping for, but because it became that awful moment in Force-chat Roulette where some guy thinks it's totally okay to ambush you with his nudity and refuses to stop even when you flat-out tell him you're uncomfortable. Weinsteins exist even in a galaxy far, far away.

Click to expand...

First in my class here at M.I.T., Got skills, I'm a Champion of D&D, MC Escher that's my favorite MC, Keep your 40 I'll just have an Earl Grey tea, My rims never spin - to the contrary, You'll find that they're quite stationary, All of my action figures are cherry, Stephen Hawking's in my library, My MySpace page is all totally pimped out, Got people begging for my top 8 spaces, Yo I know Pi to a thousand places, Ain't got no grills but I still wear braces...

Sara_2814 said:

I'm happy with Johnson shaking things up. I definitely don't want a story that's written to try and please everyone.

Click to expand...

I've never quite grasped it when people complain that a story "isn't what they were expecting" - isn't that the point of enjoying a story that someone else has created (rather than just using one's own imagination)? (Of course, I get it when people are mad that a main player's characterization/motivation/etc. shifts dramatically within a story without a good reason, but that's just one of many examples of sh*tty writing, which everyone should despise.)

But Snoke's death (as one example of complaints)? For one, it's really not that unexpected, since throughout these movies they've established that Dark Side apprentices sort of have a habit of taking out their mentors/masters at some point. And did anyone really think that this was going to lead to Snoke's story becoming more important than Kylo Ren's? (Do people dislike Adam Driver that much that they were hoping that Kylo Ren would be killed off or remain in the background for this and the next installment?). Of course, it might've been fun if they went with the idea of redeeming Kylo Ren in TLJ, with Ben and Rey fighting together against Snoke/The First Order, but then it's just down to "probably good with some nuance" team fighting irredeemably bad Nazi-esque dudes, which is basically just the final fight of Harry Potter.

NO INTRO TEXT NEEDED!

If you can't stand what someone else wrote/directed, stay in your dark room and write sad fanfiction.[DOUBLEPOST=1513707393,1513707154][/DOUBLEPOST]Red delicious apples are such a piece-of-shit fruit. They have the taste and texture of sawdust wrapped in a stack of wet college-ruled paper. It doesn't make a difference if it's refrigerated, rotten, or smashed underfoot since it'll still taste the same. They should not be on elementary teacher's "Good Job!" stamps. They do not deserve to be in every goddamn grocery store. They DO NOT deserve to be the fucking ClipArt/stock photo. I don't have enough words to describe how much bullshit red delicious apples are.

If I had a time machine but only got one use, I'd go back in time and find the farmer who first grew red delicious apples, burn his farm to the ground, and punch him in the dickhole.

Personally, I'd have liked to see Rey turned to the dark side while Kylo was cast aside and joined the rebellion while still fighting his nature.

Or actually have HAD Snoke be the BIG BAD GUY and have Kylo join Rey. But they'd have had to do a lot more to complexify Snoke to make him be worth a shit to anyone. As it stands he was about as complex a character as a generic Hispanic gang member you see in all cop movies.

Dave said:

NO INTRO TEXT NEEDED!

If you can't stand what someone else wrote/directed, stay in your dark room and write sad fanfiction.

Click to expand...

Can it be sad erotic fan fiction?

Ravenpoe said:

Can it be sad erotic fan fiction?

Click to expand...

Is there any other kind?

Dave said:

about as complex a character as a generic Hispanic gang member you see in all cop movies.

Click to expand...

Hey, don't badmouth Noel Gugliemi/Hector.

Dave said:

Red delicious apples are such a piece-of-shit fruit. They have the taste and texture of sawdust wrapped in a stack of wet college-ruled paper. It doesn't make a difference if it's refrigerated, rotten, or smashed underfoot since it'll still taste the same. They should not be on elementary teacher's "Good Job!" stamps. They do not deserve to be in every goddamn grocery store. They DO NOT deserve to be the fucking ClipArt/stock photo. I don't have enough words to describe how much bullshit red delicious apples are.

Personally, I'd have liked to see Rey turned to the dark side while Kylo was cast aside and joined the rebellion while still fighting his nature.

Click to expand...

Also a cool concept, though I doubt Disney really wanted to make their shiny new space princess evil (unless they did a last-film redemption for her back to the Light Side). Also, seems like they can't figure out how to use their existing ostensibly evil lady in any useful way (viz. Phasma)

Dave said:

As it stands he was about as complex a character as a generic Hispanic gang member you see in all cop movies.

Click to expand...

These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission: to explore strange, new worlds; to seek out new life, and new civilizations. To boldly go where no man has gone before....
(taaaa - dadadada - dadadadadada...No wait, wrogn intro music. Wait, what thread is this? Oh, cool, right intro music).



Yeah, like I said earlier...Snoke is a Star Wars baddie like Dooku and Maul. Does anyone give a crap about their origin story? Probably. Does any of it get mentioned in the movies? Dooku the barest of bones, Maul nothing whatsoever. They needed to be there to move the story forward, not to be the Big Bad. Killing Dooku was important in Anakin's character. Killing Snoke was important for Ben's.

Bubble181 said:

These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission: to explore strange, new worlds; to seek out new life, and new civilizations. To boldly go where no man has gone before....
(taaaa - dadadada - dadadadadada...No wait, wrogn intro music. Wait, what thread is this? Oh, cool, right intro music).



Yeah, like I said earlier...Snoke is a Star Wars baddie like Dooku and Maul. Does anyone give a crap about their origin story? Probably. Does any of it get mentioned in the movies? Dooku the barest of bones, Maul nothing whatsoever. They needed to be there to move the story forward, not to be the Big Bad. Killing Dooku was important in Anakin's character. Killing Snoke was important for Ben's.

Click to expand...

Are we still doing the Tapatalk Shuffle?

Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk

Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh- you suck.

* * *
So the movies seem to be roughly following a pattern with the genders reversed. ANH and TFA are the broad-plotted movies to establish the cast. ESB and TLJ are the downer, all hope looks lost movies.

Does this mean Episode IX with have Finn and Poe in gold bikinis?



Oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please...

Celt Z said:

Does this mean Episode IX with have Finn and Poe in gold bikinis?



Oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please...

Click to expand...

Keltsy in the theater for episode 9, shouting at the screen. "BE MORE NAKEDER!"

GasBandit said:

Keltsy in the theater for episode 9, shouting at the screen. "BE MORE NAKEDER!"

Click to expand...

Now, that's not fair.


I do that at a lot of movies.

Celt Z said:

Now, that's not fair.


I do that at a lot of movies.

Click to expand...

That was really inappropriate during Schindler's List.

Ravenpoe said:

That was really inappropriate during Schindler's List.

Click to expand...

But I did it during The Greatest Story Ever Told.

Celt Z said:

Are we still doing the Tapatalk Shuffle?
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Tapa-tapa-tapatalk

Tapa-tapa-tapatalk
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh- you suck.

* * *
So the movies seem to be roughly following a pattern with the genders reversed. ANH and TFA are the broad-plotted movies to establish the cast. ESB and TLJ are the downer, all hope looks lost movies.
Does this mean Episode IX with have Finn and Poe in gold bikinis?
Oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please...

Click to expand...

Great, now I have the Patapon theme stuck in my head.

And I fully support the bikinification of the male leads in theory, but for some reason, I keep picturing Harvey Weinstein as Ep IX's Jabba the Hutt, so that takes all the fun out of it

In actuality, the wacky detail I'm most interested in seeing is how they rebuild their fleet - they're down to a single ship at this point, which is entirely untenable. Though probably they'll just opening-crawl it to say that they've scavenged together the rust-buckets from a hundred abandoned Rebel bases and are preparing their rag-tag fleet for a final assault on the First Order...

Listen to me you cucked little dipshit, you come around here spreading your lies and propaganda because youre a sick pedo sympathizing pervert? Hiding behind the percieved anonymity that is merely a veil of transparency that can easily be compromised. Anyone who says pizzagate is impossible is a pedo sympathizer. It's all possible, and should be investigated. I'll accept it's "unlikely" or the "theory has holes" but any firm discount in the absence of investigation stinks to high heaven and you know it.

netsirk said:

Though probably they'll just opening-crawl it to say that they've scavenged together the rust-buckets from a hundred abandoned Rebel bases and are preparing their rag-tag fleet for a final assault on the First Order...

Click to expand...

Which will be on a giant floating space station that resembles a moon...

netsirk said:

Great, now I have the Patapon theme stuck in my head.

And I fully support the bikinification of the male leads in theory, but for some reason, I keep picturing Harvey Weinstein as Ep IX's Jabba the Hutt, so that takes all the fun out of it

In actuality, the wacky detail I'm most interested in seeing is how they rebuild their fleet - they're down to a single ship at this point, which is entirely untenable. Though probably they'll just opening-crawl it to say that they've scavenged together the rust-buckets from a hundred abandoned Rebel bases and are preparing their rag-tag fleet for a final assault on the First Order...

Click to expand...

Not to mention that the entire GALACTIC Republic's Fleet was on a handful of planets in one star system? The first order should still be behind the 8 ball compared to the fleet needed to keep tabs on a society that stretches across an entire galaxy.

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

Dave said:

Which will be on a giant floating space station that resembles a moon...

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But unlike the starkiller base it'll be even bigger!

Damn, I wanted to use the navy seals copypasta as MY tapatalk buffer. But I couldn't think of something relevant to say after that.

Dave said:

If you can't stand what someone else wrote/directed, stay in your dark room and write sad fanfiction.[DOUBLEPOST=1513707393,1513707154][/DOUBLEPOST]Red delicious apples are such a piece-of-shit fruit. They have the taste and texture of sawdust wrapped in a stack of wet college-ruled paper. It doesn't make a difference if it's refrigerated, rotten, or smashed underfoot since it'll still taste the same. They should not be on elementary teacher's "Good Job!" stamps. They do not deserve to be in every goddamn grocery store. They DO NOT deserve to be the fucking ClipArt/stock photo. I don't have enough words to describe how much bullshit red delicious apples are.

If I had a time machine but only got one use, I'd go back in time and find the farmer who first grew red delicious apples, burn his farm to the ground, and punch him in the dickhole.

Click to expand...

Red Delicious apples were extensively cultivated because they're big, colorful, and LOOK delicious. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/the-evil-reign-of-the-red-delicious/379892/

IronBrig4 said:

Red Delicious apples were extensively cultivated because they're big, colorful, and LOOK delicious. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/the-evil-reign-of-the-red-delicious/379892/

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I quit eating apples when Red Delicious became the most popular cultivar.

Logical truth is one of the most fundamental concepts in logic, and there are different theories on its nature. A logical truth is a statement which is true, and remains true under all reinterpretations of its components other than its logical constants. It is a type of analytic statement. All of philosophical logic can be thought of as providing accounts of the nature of logical truth, as well as logical consequence.[1]

Logical truths (including tautologies) are truths which are considered to be necessarily true. This is to say that they are considered to be such that they could not be untrue and no situation could arise which would cause us to reject a logical truth. It must be true in every sense of intuition, practices, and bodies of beliefs. However, it is not universally agreed that there are any statements which are necessarily true.

A logical truth is considered by some philosophers to be a statement which is true in all possible worlds. This is contrasted with facts (which may also be referred to as contingent claims or synthetic claims) which are true in this world, as it has historically unfolded, but which is not true in at least one possible world, as it might have unfolded. The proposition "If p and q, then p" and the proposition "All married people are married" are logical truths because they are true due to their inherent structure and not because of any facts of the world. Later, with the rise of formal logic a logical truth was considered to be a statement which is true under all possible interpretations.

The existence of logical truths has been put forward by rationalist philosophers as an objection to empiricism because they hold that it is impossible to account for our knowledge of logical truths on empiricist grounds. Empiricists commonly respond to this objection by arguing that logical truths (which they usually deem to be mere tautologies), are analytic and thus do not purport to describe the world.

netsirk said:

the wacky detail I'm most interested in seeing is how they rebuild their fleet - they're down to a single ship at this point, which is entirely untenable. Though probably they'll just opening-crawl it to say that they've scavenged together the rust-buckets from a hundred abandoned Rebel bases and are preparing their rag-tag fleet for a final assault on the First Order...

Click to expand...

General (admiral? I dunno) Leia used her personal code for the distress signal.

There was no response. Radio silence.

I don't think they can recover the rebellion from this, and all the talk of "balance", particularly the idea that Rey's immense power only exists to counter Kylo's immense power, and that had Kylo not risen (from the skywalker line) Rey would not have been this superpower, suggests to me that there's a similar balance in the galaxy for the federation/first order/rebellion/etc. There will always be push and pull, but now that the rebellion is decimated, and the First Order has lost its effective leader (and gained an ineffective one, which will necessarily result in infighting) I don't think they are in balance anymore.

I suspect the rebellion is going to have to be reborn, probably as something else. The old rebellion, characterized by Leia's generation, is failed. It's time for the next generation, and they're not going to be led by Rey.

But. Given the response to Leia's personal distress signal, I don't think they're going to get much help from the rest of the galaxy.

It still cracks me up how Rose had to stun Finn right after fangirling about him.

Maître Corbeau, sur un arbre perché, Tenait en son bec un fromage. Maître Renard, par l'odeur alléché, Lui tint à peu près ce langage: Et bonjour, Monsieur du Corbeau, Que vous êtes joli ! que vous me semblez beau! Sans mentir, si votre ramage, Se rapporte à votre plumage,Vous êtes le Phénix des hôtes de ces bois. À ces mots le Corbeau ne se sent pas de joie, Et pour montrer sa belle voix,Il ouvre un large bec, laisse tomber sa proie. Le Renard s'en saisit, et dit : Mon bon Monsieur, Apprenez que tout flatteur, Vit aux dépens de celui qui l'écoute. Cette leçon vaut bien un fromage sans doute. Le Corbeau honteux et confus, Jura, mais un peu tard, qu'on ne l'y prendrait plus.

Dave said:

Which will be on a giant floating space station that resembles a moon...

Click to expand...

It would be a far more compelling story if the bad guys would ever realize that simply disseminating themseleves EVERYWHERE works far better than putting all of their power players onto one giant explody thing. But they'd probably need more than 1 movie for the Resistance to rebuild and address a more widespread/less focused threat.

sixpackshaker said:

Not to mention that the entire GALACTIC Republic's Fleet was on a handful of planets in one star system? The first order should still be behind the 8 ball compared to the fleet needed to keep tabs on a society that stretches across an entire galaxy.

Click to expand...

The whole ship thing is weird to me - ostensibly, the Resistance was utilizing the Republic's remaining fleet for many of the bigger vessels (crew transports, medical frigates, etc.), as well as their lightweight combat ships. Meanwhile, the First Order was buying/sourcing their fleet en masse from ...somewhere large, presumably? Then in TLJ, while on the stolen ship, Finn, Rose, and Benicio discover that the oligarchs are selling ships to both sides, but logically, how does that work?

The Resistance would be acquiring any ships on a limited basis, given their few numbers (and presumably somewhat scant financial resources) whereas the First Order would be placing giant orders from large companies, and would likely not take kindly to discovering that a supplier was also providing ships to their enemy. What possible purpose could there be in one corporation/seller risking the sale of a few ships to the Resistance while the First Order is breathing down their neck?

Unless it's meant to be taken more literally, and the owner of the stolen shuttle was selling individual TIE fighter and X wing units, but that makes even less sense - it's not like the First Order is buying one TIE fighter at a time! (Though, actually, it *would* make sense if they'd sold both First Order and Resistance ships to someone in the Resistance - they're always sneaking past the defenses on enemy ships!) I suppose at some point one must simply shrug it off as "don't think about the movie logic too hard or it will break." And of course that whole bit was really meant to deliver the general message of "rich/bad people make money off of war, while innocent people die fighting said war."

stienman said:

General (admiral? I dunno) Leia used her personal code for the distress signal. There was no response. Radio silence. I don't think they can recover the rebellion from this, and all the talk of "balance", particularly the idea that Rey's immense power only exists to counter Kylo's immense power, and that had Kylo not risen (from the skywalker line) Rey would not have been this superpower, suggests to me that there's a similar balance in the galaxy for the federation/first order/rebellion/etc.
...
I suspect the rebellion is going to have to be reborn, probably as something else.

Click to expand...

For all the "we've put out distress signals to all our friends in all the places" talk, when they said that, my immediate thought was "Whom are they trying to signal? Everyone we (the audience) know about is either hiding out there in the Alamo, or dead. If someone comes in to rescue them, it'll have to be someone entirely new (or Lando, I guess?) and it's awfully late in the movie to introduce new friends..." So, they were always going to be on their own to save themselves and try to rebuild their ranks.

In TLJ, we see the seeds of the new rebellion forming with the Force-sensitive kids, but it'll take a decade or more for them to be useful. Unless there is a (very) significant timeskip for IX, they're going to have to recruit help from their contemporaries, but maybe that will be the impetus to reforming a more balanced Galactic senate?

In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I’ve been turning over in my mind ever since. “Whenever you feel like criticizing any one,” he told me, “just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”

netsirk said:

The whole ship thing is weird to me - ostensibly, the Resistance was utilizing the Republic's remaining fleet for many of the bigger vessels (crew transports, medical frigates, etc.), as well as their lightweight combat ships. Meanwhile, the First Order was buying/sourcing their fleet en masse from ...somewhere large, presumably? Then in TLJ, while on the stolen ship, Finn, Rose, and Benicio discover that the oligarchs are selling ships to both sides, but logically, how does that work?

The Resistance would be acquiring any ships on a limited basis, given their few numbers (and presumably somewhat scant financial resources) whereas the First Order would be placing giant orders from large companies, and would likely not take kindly to discovering that a supplier was also providing ships to their enemy. What possible purpose could there be in one corporation/seller risking the sale of a few ships to the Resistance while the First Order is breathing down their neck?

Unless it's meant to be taken more literally, and the owner of the stolen shuttle was selling individual TIE fighter and X wing units, but that makes even less sense - it's not like the First Order is buying one TIE fighter at a time! (Though, actually, it *would* make sense if they'd sold both First Order and Resistance ships to someone in the Resistance - they're always sneaking past the defenses on enemy ships!) I suppose at some point one must simply shrug it off as "don't think about the movie logic too hard or it will break." And of course that whole bit was really meant to deliver the general message of "rich/bad people make money off of war, while innocent people die fighting said war."

Click to expand...

I can definitely tell you that, canonically, TIE Fighters and X-Wings were manufactured by two entirely different companies (Sienar Fleet Systems and Incom Corp, respectively, and I don't know whether to be proud or embarrassed that I remember that without looking it up). So the shuttle's owner had to be a middleman of some sort.

GasBandit said:

In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I’ve been turning over in my mind ever since. “Whenever you feel like criticizing any one,” he told me, “just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”


I can definitely tell you that, canonically, TIE Fighters and X-Wings were manufactured by two entirely different companies (Sienar Fleet Systems and Incom Corp, respectively, and I don't know whether to be proud or embarrassed that I remember that without looking it up). So the shuttle's owner had to be a middleman of some sort.

Click to expand...

Or they merged at some point

GasBandit said:

I can definitely tell you that, canonically, TIE Fighters and X-Wings were manufactured by two entirely different companies (Sienar Fleet Systems and Incom Corp, respectively, and I don't know whether to be proud or embarrassed that I remember that without looking it up). So the shuttle's owner had to be a middleman of some sort.

Click to expand...

100% some kind of arms dealer. I can't imagine a company being allowed to directly sell to both sides of any war. You certainly can't in our world.

So, there's a man crawling through the desert.

He'd decided to try his SUV in a little bit of cross-country travel, had great fun zooming over the badlands and through the sand, got lost, hit a big rock, and then he couldn't get it started again. There were no cell phone towers anywhere near, so his cell phone was useless. He had no family, his parents had died a few years before in an auto accident, and his few friends had no idea he was out here.



This movie left me underwhelmed. I think I’m done with Star Wars. Everything with Finn, Rose, and Poe was pointless. Raiders of the Lost Ark pointless. They all failed downward constantly and only kept getting chances and moving to the next completely pointless time filler because of BB-8.

The stuff with Luke, Rey, and Ben was pretty good. It’s too bad the first order is a completely nonsensical “we need a fill in for the empire” big bad. But that was my complaint with them in Force Awakens and Last Jedi just continues that complaint so no real point holding that against it.

Covar said:

So, there's a man crawling through the desert.

He'd decided to try his SUV in a little bit of cross-country travel, had great fun zooming over the badlands and through the sand, got lost, hit a big rock, and then he couldn't get it started again. There were no cell phone towers anywhere near, so his cell phone was useless. He had no family, his parents had died a few years before in an auto accident, and his few friends had no idea he was out here.



This movie left me underwhelmed. I think I’m done with Star Wars. Everything with Finn, Rose, and Poe was pointless. Raiders of the Lost Ark pointless. They all failed downward constantly and only kept getting chances and moving to the next completely pointless time filler because of BB-8.

The stuff with Luke, Rey, and Ben was pretty good. It’s too bad the first order is a completely nonsensical “we need a fill in for the empire” big bad. But that was my complaint with them in Force Awakens and Last Jedi just continues that complaint so no real point holding that against it.

Click to expand...

I actually liked it a lot more on the second viewing, when the first viewing left me feeling uncertain and like I needed to see it again. The major theme of the movie is failure, and growing from failure.

One thing I found really interesting: I've never existed in a world where I watched Empire Strikes Back without also being able to watch return of the Jedi as well. In doing some digging, I discovered that there was a lot of backlash against Empire when it first came out, because the heroes failed. Luke lost, Han was potentially gone forever, and even the time period's version of anti-sjws were claiming that Lando was just affirmative action.

Ravenpoe said:

I actually liked it a lot more on the second viewing, when the first viewing left me feeling uncertain and like I needed to see it again. The major theme of the movie is failure, and growing from failure.

One thing I found really interesting: I've never existed I'm a world where I watched Empire Strikes Back without also being able to watch return of the Jedi as well. In doing some digging, I discovered that there was a lot of backlash against Empire when it first came out, because the heroes failed. Luke lost, Han was potentially gone forever, and even the time period's version of anti-sjws were claiming that Lando was just affirmative action.

Click to expand...

Can confirm.

The Rebellion got their asses handed to them. We had no idea if Han was still alive. Darth Vader said he was Luke's father WHAT THE FUCK? He must be lying, right? RIGHT? And then we got left hanging with all that for three years.

Waiting for Return of the Jedi to come out was . But it all turned out in the end!

Sara_2814 said:

Can confirm.

The Rebellion got their asses handed to them. We had no idea if Han was still alive. Darth Vader said he was Luke's father WHAT THE FUCK? He must be lying, right? RIGHT? And then we got left hanging with all that for three years.

Waiting for Return of the Jedi to come out was . But it all turned out in the end!

Click to expand...

Except for the Ewoks.

sixpackshaker said:

Except for the Ewoks.

Click to expand...

I was twelve. I liked the Ewoks. They were cute!

When I was a little kid, I liked Ep 6 more and didn't care much for Ep 5. I wanted good guys to win and stuff.

I was a toddler when I saw the Ewok Adventure movies (both of them) for the first time. I enjoyed them.

I've mentioned this, but I loved the Ewoks so much, my mom and grandmother made me an Ewok costume from scratch for Halloween. I was also 3. And I got the comics. And watched the Saturday morning cartoon. Lucas knew what he was doing with them.

(It's a HIMYM reference)

Dei said:

View attachment 26332

(It's a HIMYM reference)

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I know the reference, but I'm clearly on the "wrong" side of the line

I feel like Empire would've been torn a new one had the internet existed back then.

I have grown to like the ewoks. It might just be because they aren't cgi.

Celt Z said:

I've mentioned this, but I loved the Ewoks so much, my mom and grandmother made me an Ewok costume from scratch for Halloween. I was also 3. And I got the comics. And watched the Saturday morning cartoon. Lucas knew what he was doing with them.

Click to expand...

It's only fair. Ewoks also love redheads.

A little late to the party, but I unfortunately really disliked the movie. Like a whole bunch. So much that I am a bit pissed about it. Oh well.

"It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents — except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness."

netsirk said:

The whole ship thing is weird to me - ostensibly, the Resistance was utilizing the Republic's remaining fleet for many of the bigger vessels (crew transports, medical frigates, etc.), as well as their lightweight combat ships. Meanwhile, the First Order was buying/sourcing their fleet en masse from ...somewhere large, presumably? Then in TLJ, while on the stolen ship, Finn, Rose, and Benicio discover that the oligarchs are selling ships to both sides, but logically, how does that work?

The Resistance would be acquiring any ships on a limited basis, given their few numbers (and presumably somewhat scant financial resources) whereas the First Order would be placing giant orders from large companies, and would likely not take kindly to discovering that a supplier was also providing ships to their enemy. What possible purpose could there be in one corporation/seller risking the sale of a few ships to the Resistance while the First Order is breathing down their neck?

Click to expand...

Well, it's not like the Black X-Wing is new... i've just assumed they where selling them both stuff back in the day when the 1st Order was still being ignored by the Republic etc.

Said, in a comic book store, to her dad:

I swear, you have a man-crush on Kylo Ren.

Gruebeard said:

I swear, you have a man-crush on Kylo Ren.

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I just post the memes that come down the pipe, man.

But he's so much fun to "toy" around with!





Oh, the puns!

Has this been posted?

To sum up pretty much everything I said in the other thread: not terrible, but not great either. Would benefit greatly from a brutal editor to shorten up the SNL skit-length scenes, cut dialogue, and geez, maybe punch up the mood a little. Sure, ESB was also a failure-based plot, but it wasn't a huge downer.

Also this scene should've been left on the editing room floor:
[DOUBLEPOST=1514924620,1514924243][/DOUBLEPOST]For things I did like: I did like the light speed battering ram effects. Almost offset the idea of dropping bombs in zero-g. Though I guess if the bomber had simulated gravity, it'd be more like a gravity launcher.

The bomb thing didn't bother me at all. Magnets, man. They move shit.

Seriously that thing took out like ten star destroyers. I am surprised they don't just attach hyperdrive engines to super sized missiles and just launch them at an armada, it seems like a pretty deadly weapon on the scale of the a death star.

Well, sure, I can make up a million headcanon ways it worked. But they called them "bombs", and were clearly dropping them. Plus, if we want to get picky, magnetic bombs would be really easy to repel. Not to mention the whole 1/r^3 problem with distance from the dreadnought.[DOUBLEPOST=1514925216,1514925076][/DOUBLEPOST]

ScytheRexx said:

Seriously that thing took out like ten star destroyers. I am surprised they don't just attach hyperdrive engines to super sized missiles and just launch them at an armada, it seems like a pretty deadly weapon on the scale of the a death star.

Click to expand...

This was the main issue I had with the hyperdrive ram. It seems kind of obvious, and like something they would have countermeasures for.

Star wars capital ships have artificial gravity that extends beyond their hull, as has been shown in the movies before. The shop itself attracting the bombs can work.

But, yeah, no, that scene didn't really work for me either.

fade said:

This was the main issue I had with the hyperdrive ram. It seems kind of obvious, and like something they would have countermeasures for.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing they normally do but they specifically said "forget about that cruiser going into hyperspace. It's abandoned and they're just trying to trick us."

The bombs dropping in space or Leia living in the vacuum of space or the question of why hyper drives were never weaponized: none of this bothered me because it's fucking knights and wizards in space.

And I don't mean that to call out anyone that did have a problem with it, but to me star wars has always been a fantasy myth where the specifics of how don't matter.

Ravenpoe said:

The bombs dropping in space or Leia living in the vacuum of space or the question of why hyper drives were never weaponized: none of this bothered me because it's fucking knights and wizards in space.

And I don't mean that to call out anyone that did have a problem with it, but to me star wars has always been a fantasy myth where the specifics of how don't matter.

Click to expand...

Normally, I'd agree with you. It doesn't usually matter how SW tech works. But to me, the bombs were enough of a violation to pull me out of the scene a little. Still, not saying it was a huge point of contention.

On the other hand, they did point out in-universe that the super star destroyers could prevent hyperspace jumps. The dreadnought seems to be larger, but apparently lacked that capability? Or is it smaller? Genuinely asking.

fade said:

Normally, I'd agree with you. It doesn't usually matter how SW tech works. But to me, the bombs were enough of a violation to pull me out of the scene a little. Still, not saying it was a huge point of contention.

On the other hand, they did point out in-universe that the super star destroyers could prevent hyperspace jumps. The dreadnought seems to be larger, but apparently lacked that capability? Or is it smaller? Genuinely asking.

Click to expand...

IIRC, it was not the Super Star Destroyers, but rather smaller not-quite-star-destroyers called "Interdictor Cruisers." They looked like this:




Those big ball things were for generating the fake gravity well to make hyperspace jumps impossible.

I dont know why so people get hung up on the bombs. We had bombs in Empire Strikes Back falling from TIE Bombers:



And Space bombs have been around since TIE FIGHTER on DOS (AKA Proton bombs--not to be confused with the torpedo)

Yeah, but those were used over land, which keeps the suspension of disbelief engaged.

But regardless, I can't retroactively go back and not make that moment make me say, "What?" and pull me out of the scene. It did what it did when it did it.

fade said:

Yeah, but those were used over land, which keeps the suspension of disbelief engaged.

But regardless, I can't retroactively go back and not make that moment make me say, "What?" and pull me out of the scene. It did what it did when it did it.

Click to expand...

Well not with that attitude.

fade said:

Yeah, but those were used over land, which keeps the suspension of disbelief engaged.

But regardless, I can't retroactively go back and not make that moment make me say, "What?" and pull me out of the scene. It did what it did when it did it.

Click to expand...

Or arming the bombs first? Why?

fade said:

Yeah, but those were used over land, which keeps the suspension of disbelief engaged.

But regardless, I can't retroactively go back and not make that moment make me say, "What?" and pull me out of the scene. It did what it did when it did it.

Click to expand...

Actually, the space bombs in X-Wing/Tie Fighter (the second picture) were not used over land, they were used in space against capital ships and stations, like a dive bomber. You'd accelerate up to maximum velocity and "release" more than "fire" them. None of the missions in those games took place even within visual range of a planet, for reasons of performance limitations, I'm sure.

Several missions entailed trying to intercept incoming space bombs before they hit your capital ship.

Ravenpoe said:

or Leia living in the vacuum of space

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The funny thing is that empty space killing you instantly is a movie trope. In reality you'd be fine for over a minute, as long as you don't try to hold your breath.

@Li3n said:

The funny thing is that empty space killing you instantly is a movie trope. In reality you'd be fine for over a minute, as long as you don't try to hold your breath.

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You also don't freeze instantly (Like GOTG2...) because of nothing to convect or conduct to.

You might also get an unusually bad sunburn (or worse) if you're close enough to the nearest star, what with presumably no Van Allen belt nor atmosphere to run interference for you.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

You might also get an unusually bad sunburn (or worse) if you're close enough to the nearest star, what with presumably no Van Allen belt nor atmosphere to run interference for you.

--Patrick

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TIL, the The Force is also a great sunblock...

I saw the movie again recently and I definitely liked it, but I always feel this lingering conflict.

I ended up watching this video and it once again put into terms what I feel about it.

I like the premise but disagree with his examples. I'll have to think on it a bit, though.

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about the movie -- I liked a lot of it, but there are some nagging issues (maybe not exactly the same issues as @fade, but I certainly understand his frustration). However, my thoughts echo that of the video -- this was not a good example of franchise film making. The movie fits awkwardly with the one that came immediately before. I am tempted to go even further than the video and suggest that some of the choices the respective film makers were allowed to make in their own movies were not made with the franchise in mind. For example. Rey's parentage shouldn't have been set up in the first movie not because there wasn't there a good answer, but because there wasn't an answer at all when it was filmed. I like the answer that they eventually found, though I think the reveal might have worked better in a dialog between Snoke and Rey, but it obviously didn't match the details set up in The Force Awakens.

The idea was probably to match the attitude of the OT, such as Darth Vader not being planned to be Luke's father, or that Luke and Leia are revealed to be siblings. Difference is, the first movie didn't set up a mystery as to Luke's parentage. We just thought we knew, and then it was brilliantly retconned. I love that just before Obi Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, Alec Guiness glances to the side. In the first viewing it's not much of anything, but after seeing Empire it becomes the moment when Obi Wan decides to lie.

But of course the OT did actually have a plan, they just modified (over and over) it as it went.

Instead, we get what someone else on the internet called "mystery boxes" that are actually empty at the time they're shown to us. Then they have to decide what's in them, as opposed to changing what's in them because a better idea came along (like Vader being Luke's dad, or, instead of casting someone else for Luke's sister, they just make it be Leia - even though that was more of a lame way to have Han win her without breaking the "hero gets the girl" rule too blatantly).

My guess is Kylo is lying about Rey's parentage anyway. What reason does the audience have to believe him? A lie is motivated and believable here.

The whole awkardness between Force Awakens and Last Jedi is like bad improv.

a whole bunch of "no, but" that people spent several years and millions of dollars working on

fade said:

My guess is Kylo is lying about Rey's parentage anyway. What reason does the audience have to believe him? A lie is motivated and believable here.

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Kylo doesn't actually say it, though. Kylo says "you already know who your parents are," and it's Rey that says they were nobodies.

Ravenpoe said:

Kylo doesn't actually say it, though. Kylo says "you already know who your parents are," and it's Rey that says they were nobodies.

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Oh shit. I thought what Fade thought.

According to Johnson, that was the truth, because it was supposed to be antithetical to Vader's reveal in ESB. Ugh. Honestly that "everything is inverted" thing is starting to get annoying. Every interview I read with Johnson makes me dislike the movie more. "What would make Rey's life harder?" he says. Why? Why does it have to be hard turned up to 11? That's not necessary.

It's funny, I told my brother-in-law it felt like Empire only with a ton of stuff inverted "Rey being a nobody rather then revealed as the kid of someone important, the "Hoth" battle happening at the climax, etc...

I actually laughed for some reason when they had that one filler scene in which this rebel guy walks out and his footsteps turn the ground red, and one another guy reaches down and takes a taste and is like "Salt". I can just imagine Johnson, "HAHA SEE!? It's a SALT PLANET NOT AN ICE PLANET!" That is pretty much the only reason that scene exists, to once again fuck with people's first impression.

ScytheRexx said:

It's funny, I told my brother-in-law it felt like Empire only with a ton of stuff inverted "Rey being a nobody rather then revealed as the kid of someone important, the "Hoth" battle happening at the climax, etc...

I actually laughed for some reason when they had that one filler scene in which this rebel guy walks out and his footsteps turn the ground red, and one another guy reaches down and takes a taste and is like "Salt". I can just imagine Johnson, "HAHA SEE!? It's a SALT PLANET NOT AN ICE PLANET!" That is pretty much the only reason that scene exists, to once again fuck with people's first impression.

Click to expand...

That was one of a few scenes that took me out of the moment. They might as well have broken the fourth wall while they said the line and winked.

ScytheRexx said:

It's funny, I told my brother-in-law it felt like Empire only with a ton of stuff inverted "Rey being a nobody rather then revealed as the kid of someone important, the "Hoth" battle happening at the climax, etc...

I actually laughed for some reason when they had that one filler scene in which this rebel guy walks out and his footsteps turn the ground red, and one another guy reaches down and takes a taste and is like "Salt". I can just imagine Johnson, "HAHA SEE!? It's a SALT PLANET NOT AN ICE PLANET!" That is pretty much the only reason that scene exists, to once again fuck with people's first impression.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure that scene is there so that the audience notices people leave red footprints, so when someone doesn't...

Either way, both are pretty good examples of how this movie overexplained things.

fade said:

Either way, both are pretty good examples of how this movie overexplained things.

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Never disagreed with that part.

And i actually didn't notice that he left no prints, so i too was left wondering what the salt thing was about and why they put so much emphasis on it.

And this is why they put so much emphasis on Kylo Ren's square chest:

On the footprints thing... I'll be honest, i didn't notice the footprints, but nevertheless I suspected Luke wasn't really there right away. Mostly because they went through great pains to show that Yoda's force ghost was now realistically colored and not blue. I just assumed he was already dead, though.

That and using a lightsaber that was destroyed on screen a little earlier.

fade said:

And this is why they put so much emphasis on Kylo Ren's square chest:

View attachment 26457

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Talk about a milk spoiler.

I guess the Last Jedi did to Luke what Superman Returns did to the big boy scout. Just seeing your hero turned into a phenomenal loser is a bit jarring.

sixpackshaker said:

I guess the Last Jedi did to Luke what Superman Returns did to the big boy scout. Just seeing your hero turned into a phenomenal loser person is a bit jarring.

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ftfy, but most times they are synonyms anyway.

sixpackshaker said:

I guess the Last Jedi did to Luke what Superman Returns did to the big boy scout. Just seeing your hero turned into a phenomenal loser is a bit jarring.

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Luke never struck me as this infallible hero. I thought his stoicness in RotJ was far more out of character. *shrug*

(I still wish they pursued the Grey Jedi/Balancing story, especially after Luke started talking about how as each side gets stronger the other side rises to match it)

How does Luke Skywalker go from seeing good in the most evil space ninja to thinking about killing a kid? It doesn't add it up.

I guess my complaint for Luke does center on what my expectation were going to be. We got to see Vader in God-mode (like it or not) in Rogue One. It was a truly frightening scene. I wanted to see Luke in God-mode too. Master of the Force - more zen than Obi-wan in ANH, but more badass than the RotJ throne room fight scene.

If there was the Sith Devil's arsehole on that island why did he stay there? Go set up shop back on some Outer Rim mining planet or something.

Is Kylo Ren going to kill Han, Luke, and Leia single handedly? I know he didn't physically kill Luke, but it's nearly the same thing. He might as well fuck up Chewie too. Better yet turn Chewie into a rug or make a pelt coat out of him.

EDIT:
I can see Bob's point of view to a degree. He seems to be okay with the shit-storm of the prequels however so I can only give him a tiny bit of credit.

I didn't want super bad-ass Jedi Luke killing everyone (Dirty Harry style as it were). It was more of a proper Jedi Master. A Jedi Master in his prime. At the pinnacle of training and discipline. I wanted a centered-at-peace-with-himself Luke.

Ravenpoe said:

ftfy, but most times they are synonyms anyway.

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There is a bit of difference from being human, and training all the Knights of Ren for Snoke. Then the ultra-uncomfortable milking of mammals that are just a little too into having their nipples pulled.

Or mind wiping your ex and fleeing the planet so you don't have to raise your bastard child. Then there is the stalking

sixpackshaker said:

Or mind wiping your ex and fleeing the planet so you don't have to raise your bastard child. Then there is the stalking

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Kind of my thought. In what world is a deadbeat dad not a loser?

drawn_inward said:

How does Luke Skywalker go from seeing good in the most evil space ninja to thinking about killing a kid? It doesn't add it up.

I guess my complaint for Luke does center on what my expectation were going to be. We got to see Vader in God-mode (like it or not) in Rogue One. It was a truly frightening scene. I wanted to see Luke in God-mode too. Master of the Force - more zen than Obi-wan in ANH, but more badass than the RotJ throne room fight scene.

If there was the Sith Devil's arsehole on that island why did he stay there? Go set up shop back on some Outer Rim mining planet or something.

Is Kylo Ren going to kill Han, Luke, and Leia single handedly? I know he didn't physically kill Luke, but it's nearly the same thing. He might as well fuck up Chewie too. Better yet turn Chewie into a rug or make a pelt coat out of him.

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My thoughts on this are that Luke was never going to be a great Jedi. He didn't have a teacher/master long enough to learn. He had raw, natural power courtesy of being half-Skywalker, but he was never going to go God-mode. My thoughts are that the force project were the limits of his power and the end of the movie reflected that. Now we have the next generation which appear to have even more power and even less direction. It will be interesting to see what happens next.

Adam said:

My thoughts on this are that Luke was never going to be a great Jedi. He didn't have a teacher/master long enough to learn. He had raw, natural power courtesy of being half-Skywalker, but he was never going to go God-mode. My thoughts are that the force project were the limits of his power and the end of the movie reflected that. Now we have the next generation which appear to have even more power and even less direction. It will be interesting to see what happens next.

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Maybe I am just too emotionally attached to the character, and I have play-acted and pretended to be Luke Skywalker so much growing up that seeing this version of him bothered me quite a bit. It bothers me way more than seeing Han die or Leia (since we know it's coming). Way more than seeing Luke himself disappear. I was numb to his death by the end of the movie. That all sounds really ridiculous. It is just a silly space movie after all.

drawn_inward said:

Maybe I am just too emotionally attached to the character, and I have play-acted and pretended to be Luke Skywalker so much growing up that seeing this version of him bothered me quite a bit. It bothers me way more than seeing Han die or Leia (since we know it's coming). Way more than seeing Luke himself disappear. I was numb to his death by the end of the movie. That all sounds really ridiculous. It is just a silly space movie after all.

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It sounds like it did what it was supposed to do and deeply emotionally affected you.

Ravenpoe said:

It sounds like it did what it was supposed to do and deeply emotionally affected you.

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That may be so, but it has done the opposite to my SW appetite. I was tentative about TFA, but was pleasantly surprised. I really enjoyed RO. Now, I don't want to see the Han Solo film or the Rian Johnson trilogy or Episode IX. I feel the same way I did after Episode II.

I don't know--everyone seemed pretty impressed with Luke's amazing development and power in the OT, and he had Luke and Ben to guide his training as ghosts. Plus, what about the whole "size matters not" bit? The concept of a limit to Jedi power seems contrary to Yoda's teachings, and even to Luke's own teachings in this very movie.

But, that aside, the tarnishing of Luke just doesn't feel right. Partly because of his status in the real world, but also because of his heroic beginnings. Seems like a really long way to fall. Anakin was screwed from the get-go, but Luke held out. Even a momentary weakness of pulling a death blade on a freakin' kid just seems so far out in Luke's character's Outer Rim that it might as well be a moisture farmer on Tattoine. It doesn't sit well with me, and feels like a reach for a motivation on Ren's part. I think it was fine in TFA when it was just implied that he went bad. That's good enough. I don't think we needed an inciting event for that. Or if we did, why couldn't it be through Snoke or through Ben Solo's character development? Not through some stretch of an action on Luke's part. Luke could've been gone for the reasons we all speculated at the end of TFA. He didn't want to risk producing another Vader. He was searching for something. He was hiding because the First Order needed him for something. Whatever. Pretty much anything but "I pulled my space knife on a kid".[DOUBLEPOST=1515532385,1515532344][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ravenpoe said:

It sounds like it did what it was supposed to do and deeply emotionally affected you.

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I mean, the introduction of Jar Jar deeply incited emotions, too.[DOUBLEPOST=1515532723][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, so what? If Johnson wanted that reaction from me, that doesn't matter. Whether he intentionally invoked the reaction or not, it's the reaction itself that's the problem here.

drawn_inward said:

That may be so, but it has done the opposite to my SW appetite. I was tentative about TFA, but was pleasantly surprised. I really enjoyed RO. Now, I don't want to see the Han Solo film or the Rian Johnson trilogy or Episode IX. I feel the same way I did after Episode II.

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I don't want to see the Han Solo movie just because I have no idea why it is being made. I like Han Solo lots, I don't need his backstory.

Ravenpoe said:

I don't want to see the Han Solo movie just because I have no idea why it is being made. I like Han Solo lots, I don't need his backstory.

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I'm expecting it to show the origin of Snoke.

fade said:

If Johnson wanted that reaction from me, that doesn't matter. Whether he intentionally invoked the reaction or not, it's the reaction itself that's the problem here.

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Is it a problem? If you find it problematic, that's fair, but why is that reaction, intended or not (and I believe it was intended) a problem?

Ravenpoe said:

Is it a problem? If you find it problematic, that's fair, but why is that reaction, intended or not (and I believe it was intended) a problem?

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Well, we are talking about opinions here, and it was a problem for me. Not sure what else you might mean.

Ravenpoe said:

I don't want to see the Han Solo movie just because I have no idea why it is being made. I like Han Solo lots, I don't need his backstory.

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I'm stoked. It's apparently such a train wreck Disney's just dumping it out there to die. Main actor can't act, script problems, etc.

fade said:

Well, we are talking about opinions here, and it was a problem for me. Not sure what else you might mean.

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That's actually what I want cleared up. In which case yeah, just differing opinions. It was the 'problem' language that threw me, but I see what you mean now.

I'm starting to feel I have no horse in this race. I thought I loved Star Wars, but seeing how stuff got under people's skin across the internet, for various reasons, I'm not sure what I feel scratches the surface to what the genuine article fans feel.

Reading drawn_inward's post about Luke was really the big thing, because it got me thinking, who is my favorite Star Wars character? I like and love many of them, but who's the one I care about most, feel for most?

I don't think I have one. I like the stories, the setting, a lot of the dialogue (clunky as it often is), many of the moments, the effects and performances and how those play off each other. I like the whole of the thing more than the parts. My favorite thing is probably John Williams' themes and score. So maybe even though some of the stuff in The Last Jedi didn't sit well with me, for the most part I liked it because I'm in that group of movie critics and general audiences that did, and not the Star Wars fans whose reactions range from bothered to offended to outraged, and are entirely entitled to those reactions.

But I don't give a shit about the Han Solo movie. Unless there's a reaction of how great it was that draws me to it, I'll catch that one like I did Episode II, whenever it happens to be around.

Yeah, I feel the same. It's a story that really didn't need to be told.

It's a PORGI.

fade said:

Yeah, I feel the same. It's a story that really didn't need to be told.

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The Solo story or TLJ?

Zero Esc said:

I'm starting to feel I have no horse in this race. I thought I loved Star Wars, but seeing how stuff got under people's skin across the internet, for various reasons, I'm not sure what I feel scratches the surface to what the genuine article fans feel.

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I am sure you love SW just as much as the next guy or gal. I just have a different opinion. It's not big potatoes. I am sure my posts sound melodramatic. I was just disappointed. I think folks who liked TLJ are just as big (maybe even bigger) SW fans than me. I have definitely grown more critical of media in general as I have gotten older.

I have mentioned before that I liked the movie, as a film, other then pacing, it worked well and kept me interested through the long runtime.

But I am not a fan of Star Wars that some people are.

I remember when I saw the WarCraft movie I was somewhat disappointed in it, not because it was terrible (though it was not great either), but because I grew up with a lot of the characters and the changes they made to their histories, how they act around each other, etc, really got on my nerves. So I can "get" the outrage, even if I myself enjoyed the movie.

Frank said:

I'm stoked. It's apparently such a train wreck Disney's just dumping it out there to die. Main actor can't act, script problems, etc.

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I really wonder if that's the right choice. Scrapping the whole project is a black eye and a huge cost, but a really bad SW movie might end up costing them more in terms of damage to the brand and future movies.

I do have to say - I don't know a single person who's interested or invested or hyped for the Solo movie. None.

drawn_inward said:

The Solo story or TLJ?



I am sure you love SW just as much as the next guy or gal. I just have a different opinion. It's not big potatoes. I am sure my posts sound melodramatic. I was just disappointed. I think folks who liked TLJ are just as big (maybe even bigger) SW fans than me. I have definitely grown more critical of media in general as I have gotten older.

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Solo. Also, yes. The whole "fade hates it" thing is 90% of the time really "fade disliked this one aspect of it, but was totally okay with the 300 other things about it". It's the whole no tone in text deal.

Ah, so you hate the "Fade hates it" thing.

fade said:

Solo. Also, yes. The whole "fade hates it" thing is 90% of the time really "fade disliked this one aspect of it, but was totally okay with the 300 other things about it". It's the whole no tone in text deal.

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You just have to take what the Forum paints you and run with it. Yub yub.

Ron Howard has made a range of ok-to-great films. I think he could make at least a good film. The cast is fine - I feel ambivalent towards that.

I hope it's not an "origin" story with these scenes:
-Winning the Falcon from Lando
-Solo getting his iconic gun
-Kessel Run
-Meeting Chewie

That all sounds boring to me. I'm afraid that it's going to be exactly that.

I'd rather see a bit of an antihero film. Han was comfortable hanging out in a hive of scum and villainy. He dealt with Jabba (not that I necessarily want to see that). I wouldn't mind a scene of him "shooting first". Don't make him a lovable scoundrel. That's his arc. He becomes the lovable scoundrel, right? He's not a villain before ANH necessarily, but he certainly wasn't a hero. He's a smuggler and spice runner. He's a space pirate. Anyhow, maybe I should just chill out.

drawn_inward said:

Ron Howard has made a range of ok-to-great films. I think he could make at least a good film. The cast is fine - I feel ambivalent towards that.

I hope it's not an "origin" story with these scenes:
-Winning the Falcon from Lando
-Solo getting his iconic gun
-Kessel Run
-Meeting Chewie

That all sounds boring to me. I'm afraid that it's going to be exactly that.

I'd rather see a bit of an antihero film. Han was comfortable hanging out in a hive of scum and villainy. He dealt with Jabba (not that I necessarily want to see that). I wouldn't mind a scene of him "shooting first". Don't make him a lovable scoundrel. That's his arc. He becomes the lovable scoundrel, right? He's not a villain before ANH necessarily, but he certainly wasn't a hero. He's a smuggler and spice runner. He's a space pirate. Anyhow, maybe I should just chill out.

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Every single thing mentioned about Han Solo's past will be in this movie. I bet we also get to see him get into trouble with Jabba too.

And we'll see him buddy up with Greedo, just to make his appearance in the original "edgy "

I'm expecting Solo's story to remind me of DJ - he's not interested in who's wrong or right, or bad or good, but he's going to make money off it either way the only way he knows how - smuggling.

The solo we got in The Force Awakens where he's smuggling, in trouble with his clients, fond of his ship, strong relationship with Chewbacca is more of what I'd like to see. Tell me something about him I didn't already know. And, honestly, I don't need character growth. If it happens to throw him for a loop and makes him come close to rethinking his path in life, ok, but he doesn't actually change until an already established moment in the story.

If there's character growth it'll have to be in the opposite direction. What event or events led him to decide he has to shoot first? What people/friends/family did he lose along the way, and why doesn't he form such connections anymore except with Chewbacca?

He wasn't born this way.

Go ahead and touch on the lore (maybe he cheated at the kessel run, and that's why he's so emphatic about it later - still trying to cover up his own lies), but there's no need to go through a scene that doesn't provide new insight or information.

That said, I'll watch it, probably in the theaters.

We're spoiled. Even "bad" movies are still highly entertaining and blow away expectations we had for movies a few decades ago.

Frank said:

Every single thing mentioned about Han Solo's past will be in this movie. I bet we also get to see him get into trouble with Jabba too.

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I am sure that's what we'll get, but that's the easy paint-by-numbers route, and likely about as satisfying as seeing Vader's "fall".

ScytheRexx said:

I have mentioned before that I liked the movie, as a film, other then pacing, it worked well and kept me interested through the long runtime.

But I am not a fan of Star Wars that some people are.

I remember when I saw the WarCraft movie I was somewhat disappointed in it, not because it was terrible (though it was not great either), but because I grew up with a lot of the characters and the changes they made to their histories, how they act around each other, etc, really got on my nerves. So I can "get" the outrage, even if I myself enjoyed the movie.

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My problem with the Warcraft movie was that if you didn't already kind of know what was happening, you had no clue what was happening because it was a slipshod mess that jumped around too much.

Dei said:

My problem with the Warcraft movie was that if you didn't already kind of know what was happening, you had no clue what was happening because it was a slipshod mess that jumped around too much.

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You mean like how they always referred to Lothar as Lothar, except for one scene, where they start talking about Anduin, and he's never once before called by his first name, or again called by his first name? As a warcraft nerd, I know his full name, but I saw it with several friends who were suddenly like "Who the fuck is Anduin?"

Dei said:

My problem with the Warcraft movie was that if you didn't already kind of know what was happening, you had no clue what was happening because it was a slipshod mess that jumped around too much.

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Which is kind of why lots of people were rather luke warm if anything about it.

If you were a fan you were annoyed by all the changes (Garona and Medivh were lovers in the lore, but in the movie it's implied Medivh is her dad, which is just... not the best change).

If you were not a fan you really didn't get what was happening.

I still stand by my idea that a WarCraft movie should have basically been a fantasy version of Enemy Mine. Focus on the interaction and dynamics of one orc and human, get to know and like both of them, rather then split the story into two parts that never pay off together.

figmentPez said:

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I now have three songs stuck in my head at once.

It's... not that bad, actually.

Stolen from Wasabi's facebook feed -

For consideration:

stienman said:

For consideration:

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Okay, but none of this was subtle on screen. Yeah, we got that it was supposed to be heroic that Luke cut himself off from the Force. Yeah, I didn't connect it to Rashomon, but the whole "different perspectives" bit was about as subtle as a sledgehammer. The thing is a lot of us formed our opinion despite realizing these same things, not in ignorance of them. (I was 100% sure he was going to throw the saber--ask my son. Told him before it happened. He said, "How did you know?" and I said, "what else could the writers make him do at this point?", much like this guy is saying).

The other thing is that the overall plot wasn't bad. For the most part, the skeleton was fine. It was the meat hung on it.

I'll just reiterate that Luke wasn't my problem with the movie. It was the long utterly pointless stuff with the non-force characters.

fade said:

...none of this was subtle...was about as subtle as a sledgehammer...

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[DOUBLEPOST=1515767836,1515767544][/DOUBLEPOST]It's definitely a difficult movie - lots of people had good experiences, lots of people were disappointed but ok, and lots of people had bad experiences. "Not my Skywalker!"

But obviously it's making people think, and the fact that listening to someone else's perspective on the characters and the movie can change one's own perception is interesting in and of itself.

I don't think this is a defense of all that's wrong (or right) about the movie. It's just one way to think about one character's arc.

It doesn't redeem or condemn the movie either way.

I don't feel subtlty has ever been Star Wars' strong suit.

I guess I said that because there seems to be this phenomenon with TLJ where someone says they don't like X about it, then someone goes, "Oh but you didn't notice Y." when Y was, like, right there. Okay, I noticed Y. Everyone noticed Y. Still didn't like X>

fade said:

I guess I said that because there seems to be this phenomenon with TLJ where someone says they don't like X about it, then someone goes, "Oh but you didn't notice Y." when Y was, like, right there. Okay, I noticed Y. Everyone noticed Y. Still didn't like X>

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Or "But Empire..."

If you don't like it, you don't like it. There were legit problems with it. I thought the good made up for the bad, others didn't. Whatever.

The only people that really annoy me are the ones just bitching that their fan-theories didn't turn out to be canon.

stienman said:

For consideration:

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Were the Jedi ever shown to be the amazing heroes that people expected Luke Skywalker to be? In the prequels, they were shown to be too set in their ways and bureaucratic. After the purge, Obi-Wan and Yoda essentially abandoned the Jedi Order. Just because all the other trained Jedi were killed doesn't mean potentials ceased to exist, yet they both became hermits. And for all their talk about "too old to train" with Anakin, why did Obi-Wan wait until Luke came to him--in his early 20s--to train him? Why not start his training as a toddler since he lived just a couple sand dunes away? Had he ever planned on training him? If Leia hadn't sent that message with Artoo, or if Luke had never found Artoo, then Luke would probably never have been trained and the Jedis would be gone. But maybe it was a good idea to let the Jedi die out, considering the Master/Apprentice lineage of the surviving Jedi. Obi-Wan's first apprentice was Darth Vader and Obi-Wan's master (Qui Gon) was the apprentice of Dooku, who had been trained by Yoda. Given that, Luke 1) having a fear of losing control and 2) giving up, because that's what Obi-Wan and Yoda did when the going got tough, makes sense.

I've been thinking that The Last Jedi hints that they trained the wrong Skywalker twin. Luke was an accidental hero and kind of a flake. Leia chose her role in the rebellion and has pushed on through all the shit life has thrown at her. Her entire planet and family/friends got blown up, and she kept going. She finds out the evil dude who tortured her (and also involved in blowing up her planet) is her bio-dad, and she keeps going. Her husband and brother ran off on her, and she kept going. Her husband was murdered by their son, and she kept going. Her self-rescue via the Force shows that she had the potential. If Leia had been trained, there would probably be a smoothly running Jedi Academy, with new Jedi to protect the galaxy. And if someone burned it down on her, rather than running away to become a hermit she would have built another one and kept going.

Sara_2814 said:

Were the Jedi ever shown to be the amazing heroes that people expected Luke Skywalker to be? In the prequels, they were shown to be too set in their ways and bureaucratic. After the purge, Obi-Wan and Yoda essentially abandoned the Jedi Order. Just because all the other trained Jedi were killed doesn't mean potentials ceased to exist, yet they both became hermits. And for all their talk about "too old to train" with Anakin, why did Obi-Wan wait until Luke came to him--in his early 20s--to train him? Why not start his training as a toddler since he lived just a couple sand dunes away? Had he ever planned on training him? If Leia hadn't sent that message with Artoo, or if Luke had never found Artoo, then Luke would probably never have been trained and the Jedis would be gone. But maybe it was a good idea to let the Jedi die out, considering the Master/Apprentice lineage of the surviving Jedi. Obi-Wan's first apprentice was Darth Vader and Obi-Wan's master (Qui Gon) was the apprentice of Dooku, who had been trained by Yoda. Given that, Luke 1) having a fear of losing control and 2) giving up, because that's what Obi-Wan and Yoda did when the going got tough, makes sense.

I've been thinking that The Last Jedi hints that they trained the wrong Skywalker twin. Luke was an accidental hero and kind of a flake. Leia chose her role in the rebellion and has pushed on through all the shit life has thrown at her. Her entire planet and family/friends got blown up, and she kept going. She finds out the evil dude who tortured her (and also involved in blowing up her planet) is her bio-dad, and she keeps going. Her husband and brother ran off on her, and she kept going. Her husband was murdered by their son, and she kept going. Her self-rescue via the Force shows that she had the potential. If Leia had been trained, there would probably be a smoothly running Jedi Academy, with new Jedi to protect the galaxy. And if someone burned it down on her, rather than running away to become a hermit she would have built another one and kept going.

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Since I've been thinking about all this recently, I realized that Luke was pretty badass in RotJ. Single-handedly (literally) waltzed into Jabba's palace and fucked things up (with some help from R2D2). He kicked Vader's ass (though Vader may have been distracted). If he hadn't thrown his saber down like a dummy, could he have dealt with the Emperor on his own? Who knows. I guess that's as good as we will get for Jedi badassery.

Sara_2814 said:

Were the Jedi ever shown to be the amazing heroes that people expected Luke Skywalker to be? In the prequels, they were shown to be too set in their ways and bureaucratic. After the purge, Obi-Wan and Yoda essentially abandoned the Jedi Order. Just because all the other trained Jedi were killed doesn't mean potentials ceased to exist, yet they both became hermits. And for all their talk about "too old to train" with Anakin, why did Obi-Wan wait until Luke came to him--in his early 20s--to train him? Why not start his training as a toddler since he lived just a couple sand dunes away? Had he ever planned on training him? If Leia hadn't sent that message with Artoo, or if Luke had never found Artoo, then Luke would probably never have been trained and the Jedis would be gone. But maybe it was a good idea to let the Jedi die out, considering the Master/Apprentice lineage of the surviving Jedi. Obi-Wan's first apprentice was Darth Vader and Obi-Wan's master (Qui Gon) was the apprentice of Dooku, who had been trained by Yoda. Given that, Luke 1) having a fear of losing control and 2) giving up, because that's what Obi-Wan and Yoda did when the going got tough, makes sense.

I've been thinking that The Last Jedi hints that they trained the wrong Skywalker twin. Luke was an accidental hero and kind of a flake. Leia chose her role in the rebellion and has pushed on through all the shit life has thrown at her. Her entire planet and family/friends got blown up, and she kept going. She finds out the evil dude who tortured her (and also involved in blowing up her planet) is her bio-dad, and she keeps going. Her husband and brother ran off on her, and she kept going. Her husband was murdered by their son, and she kept going. Her self-rescue via the Force shows that she had the potential. If Leia had been trained, there would probably be a smoothly running Jedi Academy, with new Jedi to protect the galaxy. And if someone burned it down on her, rather than running away to become a hermit she would have built another one and kept going.

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But her emails...

fade said:

I guess I said that because there seems to be this phenomenon with TLJ where someone says they don't like X about it, then someone goes, "Oh but you didn't notice Y." when Y was, like, right there. Okay, I noticed Y. Everyone noticed Y. Still didn't like X>

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That makes sense. Yeah, I don't think anything going on in The Last Jedi was a secret. Even the secrets..

My chief complaint toward The Last Jedi is that I can no longer refer to Return of the Jedi as just Jedi.

Zero Esc said:

That makes sense. Yeah, I don't think anything going on in The Last Jedi was a secret. Even the secrets..

My chief complaint toward The Last Jedi is that I can no longer refer to Return of the Jedi as just Jedi.

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Well, you could just call it the last Jedi. Not the first Jedi, but the last Jedi.

Be a snob like me and call it "the real Jedi" kinda like how I just call the the first one Star Wars.

[DOUBLEPOST=1515791397,1515791319][/DOUBLEPOST] [DOUBLEPOST=1515791425][/DOUBLEPOST] [DOUBLEPOST=1515791459][/DOUBLEPOST]

drawn_inward said:

Since I've been thinking about all this recently, I realized that Luke was pretty badass in RotJ. Single-handedly (literally) waltzed into Jabba's palace and fucked things up (with some help from R2D2). He kicked Vader's ass (though Vader may have been distracted). If he hadn't thrown his saber down like a dummy, could he have dealt with the Emperor on his own? Who knows. I guess that's as good as we will get for Jedi badassery.

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I believe forming a visual presence on another planet lightyears from his location and fooling a powerful jedi user long enough to allow his friends to escape eclipses all those.

He's finally finished his training. Yoda insisted he'd be more helpful to his friends if he completed his training than if he ran off and saved them, and he didn't listen then. Yoda gave him his final lesson, he listened, and he's finally figured out he doesn't need to run off to save someone, he can do it from the comfort of his own hermitage.

I think, all this time, he still didn't fully understand the force. He was able to use it, like Vader he had a talent and didn't have to work hard to use it, so he never had to struggle to truly understand it.

Once he reached a true understanding of it, he became much more capable - and much less violent. It was only due to that understanding that he became one with the force - I suspect if he had died prior to this movie he wouldn't be a force ghost (which we have no evidence of, but I'm sure he'll be back - someone needs to train Rey - and Ben).

The best one so far:

GasBandit said:

The best one so far:

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Shit... they know... ABORT, ABORT!!!

[DOUBLEPOST=1516025712,1516025659][/DOUBLEPOST]It's animated but imgur's being a bitch about animating lately, so click it to see it animate.

Living in a community with a HUGE pacifist culture, Luke's actions at the end of TLJ were very well-received. A victory without violence was seen as truly something special. It's an interesting take on it.

Adam said:

Living in a community with a HUGE pacifist culture

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That sucks. How can you live in a community that doesn't play hockey?

GasBandit said:

click it to see it animate.

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Didn’t work.
But I blame imgur for this.

—Patrick

Adam said:

Living in a community with a HUGE pacifist culture, Luke's actions at the end of TLJ were very well-received. A victory without violence was seen as truly something special. It's an interesting take on it.

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It's the part I found most interesting. Lots of people are saying they wanted to see Luke slashing shit up, but I think saving the day without ever actually wielding a weapon or hurting anyone is much more what an idealized Jedi Master would do.

Gruebeard said:

That sucks. How can you live in a community that doesn't play hockey?

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You're telling me! My wife doesn't want the kid to play hockey when he grows up.

So I bought him this:



Hard to argue against cute.[DOUBLEPOST=1516053231,1516052861][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ravenpoe said:

It's the part I found most interesting. Lots of people are saying they wanted to see Luke slashing shit up, but I think saving the day without ever actually wielding a weapon or hurting anyone is much more what an idealized Jedi Master would do.

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And I think it's such a rarity in blockbuster film making that it should be lauded. A lot of other stuff from the movie was pure garbage but that was wonderful.

stienman said:

I believe forming a visual presence on another planet lightyears from his location and fooling a powerful jedi user long enough to allow his friends to escape eclipses all those.

He's finally finished his training. Yoda insisted he'd be more helpful to his friends if he completed his training than if he ran off and saved them, and he didn't listen then. Yoda gave him his final lesson, he listened, and he's finally figured out he doesn't need to run off to save someone, he can do it from the comfort of his own hermitage.

I think, all this time, he still didn't fully understand the force. He was able to use it, like Vader he had a talent and didn't have to work hard to use it, so he never had to struggle to truly understand it.

Once he reached a true understanding of it, he became much more capable - and much less violent. It was only due to that understanding that he became one with the force - I suspect if he had died prior to this movie he wouldn't be a force ghost (which we have no evidence of, but I'm sure he'll be back - someone needs to train Rey - and Ben).

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Going off your point, there's something I realized about Luke's development as a Jedi:

He had to do it all by himself. After Yoda's training, he had no one. No Jedi Council, no Obi-Wan, no Yoda. He didn't return to Yoda to finish his training. The next time he saw Yoda was when the little green guy was on his death bed. Heck, when he told Yoda he was finally a Jedi Master, Yoda was all like, "Oh ARE you now?" Luke really has no idea what it means to be a Jedi Master. Sure, he had the books (where did he get those, anyway?). But book learning is one thing. Having someone guide you through that teaching and/or applying that knowledge is a totally different thing. And he didn't have any of that. The only two Jedi he was familiar with both lived their later lives as hermits. After everything he went through, including basically created Kylo Ren, he probably saw that as the most reasonable course of action.

But then, with Last Jedi, I think he finally understood what it truly meant to be a Jedi. It's the lesson he learned with Obi-Wan's death: sometimes, the violent route isn't the right route.

I liked Luke's non-violent approach. That part was okay.

ThatNickGuy said:

Sure, he had the books (where did he get those, anyway?).

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As an aside, I figured they were already there when he showed up to the planet.

Adam said:

You're telling me! My wife doesn't want the kid to play hockey when he grows up.

So I bought him this:
View attachment 26499


Hard to argue against cute.

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SOOOOOOOO CUTE!

blotsfan said:

As an aside, I figured they were already there when he showed up to the planet.

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I think he found them in Obi-Wan's house on Tatooine in the Luke Skywalker comic. It doesn't much matter for TLJ, though.

New Kylo Ren Lego.

Should there be a conversation, Star Wars Anthology 2 Has a Name?

Not sure if this has been posted:



Link

I like RLM and some points were fair but my god did they intentionally miss the point on some things (mostly kylo ren).

blotsfan said:

I like RLM and some points were fair but my god did they intentionally miss the point on some things (mostly kylo ren).

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I think that's intentional.

It doesn't make it good, but I think it's intentional.