Ohio school shooter is sentenced, is also straight evil

GasBandit · Mar 20, 2013

Bowielee said:
Or even non-criminals... just sayin'.

I've said it before, and I'm certain I'll say it again. Gun control laws in this country are nigh useless because the gun culture that drives it will ensure that they won't be enforced anyway. What needs to change is the fetishization of guns and gun violence.

In other words, gun violence is a symptom, not a root cause.

As you said, good luck with that.

Even if America suddenly fell out of love with guns, criminals would still not obey gun control laws. The only people gun control disarms are the law abiding citizens you wouldn't have to fear owning guns in the first place. The cities with the strictest gun control laws are still the ones with the highest amounts of gun crime - the criminals are armed and the victims are not.

Meanwhile, states that issue concealed carry permits have lower violent crime rates, and those with right-to-carry laws have the lowest.

Bowielee · Mar 20, 2013

GasBandit said:
Even if America suddenly fell out of love with guns, criminals would still not obey gun control laws. The only people gun control disarms are the law abiding citizens you wouldn't have to fear owning guns in the first place. The cities with the strictest gun control laws are still the ones with the highest amounts of gun crime - the criminals are armed and the victims are not.

Meanwhile, states that issue concealed carry permits have lower violent crime rates, and those with right-to-carry laws have the lowest.

I'd like to see the stats to back that up. Not that I don't believe you, just that it's a big assertion to make without evidence.

GasBandit · Mar 20, 2013

Bowielee said:
I'd like to see the stats to back that up. Not that I don't believe you, just that it's a big assertion to make without evidence.

I was quoting an op ed from the Cato Institute, which, full disclosure, is a conservative think tank.

Bowielee · Mar 20, 2013

It also doesn't cite sources, which makes me question any article's claims, conservative or liberal.

GasBandit · Mar 20, 2013

Bowielee said:
It also doesn't cite sources, which makes me question any article's claims, conservative or liberal.

I'm sure hydrophobic chuck will be quick to point out that pretty much any right-wing article on the effects of gun control will largely draw from the work of John Lott, especially in this case, his book "More Guns, Less Crime."

Bowielee · Mar 20, 2013

That book is extremely contentious, as are the findings posited in it. I can't say one way or the other as different studies have shown different results. I'd like to see an impartial meta-analysis done, but I don't know if that's realistic given the agendas on both sides.

blotsfan · Mar 20, 2013

Kinda related, but kinda not. I can't stand the whole "It will take guns away from the law abiding citizens, but not the criminals" argument. It splits people into two categories that arent actually separate. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen at some point. You cant say "this man hasnt committed a crime, so he never will." There are countless examples of law abiding citizens killing people out of nowhere.

Bowielee · Mar 20, 2013

blotsfan said:
Kinda related, but kinda not. I can't stand the whole "It will take guns away from the law abiding citizens, but not the criminals" argument. It splits people into two categories that arent actually separate. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen at some point. You cant say "this man hasnt committed a crime, so he never will." There are countless examples of law abiding citizens killing people out of nowhere.

They come out of the womb smoking crack and trafficking drugs and whores. Didn't you know that? They're also easily identifiable by their black hats and domino masks.

I think that's what annoys me the most about discussions like these. People want to make black and white distinctions out of things that are WAY in the gray area.

Terrik · Mar 20, 2013

Bowielee said:
I'd like to see the stats to back that up. Not that I don't believe you, just that it's a big assertion to make without evidence.

Take a look at Richmond, California. Strict gun laws, most dangerous city in California, 8th in the nation.

Charlie Don't Surf · Mar 20, 2013

Terrik said:
Take a look at Richmond, California. Strict gun laws, most dangerous city in California, 8th in the nation.

you're doing it wrong, didn't you hear the latest talking points from Rush? The strict gun law evil crime city to bring up is Chicago.

Terrik · Mar 20, 2013

Charlie Don't Surf said:
you're doing it wrong, didn't you hear the latest talking points from Rush? The strict gun law evil crime city to bring up is Chicago.

I haven't listened to Rush since high school

Charlie Don't Surf · Mar 20, 2013

Terrik said:
I haven't listened to Rush since high school

D:

Bowielee · Mar 20, 2013

Terrik said:
Take a look at Richmond, California. Strict gun laws, most dangerous city in California, 8th in the nation.

Correlation =! causation.

Pretty much the first rule of data analysis. One city is hardly a full sample size that can generalize back to the population.

AshburnerX · Mar 20, 2013

I think it would be better to look at how many registered gun owners actually use their guns to commit a crime. I'd be willing to bet most of those are crimes of passion, caused by mental illness, or suicides performed mostly with handguns and shotguns. I'd also be willing to bet that most registered assault weapons are NEVER used in a violent crime by their owners.

strawman · Mar 20, 2013

It's not impossible to go to a gun less state and significantly reduce gun related crime by doing so. But it can't happen until the government convinces the citizens that it is worthwhile.

So far that hasn't happened, but Obama sure is trying his darnedest to convince us.

GasBandit · Mar 20, 2013

Bowielee said:
They come out of the womb smoking crack and trafficking drugs and whores.

Actually, they ARE pretty identifiable... statistics show they come out of the womb with no present or future paternal influence. Single parents cause crime.

Charlie Don't Surf · Mar 21, 2013

stienman said:
So far that hasn't happened, but Obama sure is trying his darnedest to convince us.

Actually, no, the democratic party in congress nor even the white house are making any significant push to even ban assault weapons / high magazines. It's not even looking like there will be a vote on universal background checks.

strawman · Mar 21, 2013

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Actually, no, the democratic party in congress nor even the white house are making any significant push to even ban assault weapons / high magazines. It's not even looking like there will be a vote on universal background checks.

Well of course not. They cannot win those fights right now.

I don't think anyone is wearing rose colored glasses. They all know that it's something they have to fight in the public conscious to convince enough citizens that something more needs to be done. They have no footing legislatively to pass anything, so they're beating the pulpit right now.

sixpackshaker · Mar 21, 2013

Gun Control and violence levels is a bit like the argument that Diet Coke makes you fat because fat people drink Diet Coke. Maybe fat people drink Diet Coke because they are fat, and cities enact gun control laws because of violent crime.

GasBandit · Mar 21, 2013

sixpackshaker said:
Gun Control and violence levels is a bit like the argument that Diet Coke makes you fat because fat people drink Diet Coke. Maybe fat people drink Diet Coke because they are fat, and cities enact gun control laws because of violent crime.

Actually, I HAVE read that diet soda affects your gut flora in such a way that contributes to weight gain...