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Steven Soderburgin
why the fuck do i even bother with you people
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Green_Lantern
Staff member
Hate gays and women? Then give Catholicism a try!
Well, yes, but what would be the point?[/QUOTE]
Finally a gay guy in this thread who's not hypersensitive!
<high five>[/QUOTE]
huh... okay.
<high five>
A person can be gay without being sexually active.[/QUOTE]
Well, yes, but what would be the point?[/QUOTE]
Finally a gay guy in this thread who's not hypersensitive!
<high five>[/QUOTE]
huh... okay.
<high five>
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Chazwozel
I just don't get the point of your original post. Other than to bitch about something that's frankly not all that damn important. So close-minded people from one church move to another due to a marketing ploy based on bigotry. So what? You still have the same group of assholes in a new setting; shit happens all the time with everything from race, gender; to sex. You find a market that a niche of people will buy up and exploit it. Now I'm off to buy the beer brand with the most titties in its commercials.
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Steven Soderburgin
It's important because the Catholic Church is an organization with pretty significant international influence that openly wants to marginalize gays and women, peace
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Chazwozel
So does Islam, and they marginalize gays and women with a smile while they stone or behead them.
What international influence does the Catholic church have, aside from having world leaders that might follow that particular religion (and even they can make up their own minds about these things)? I don't really know of many countries that are governed under Catholic law outside the Vatican (Mexico?). I'd say you're barking up the wrong religion if you want to call out an organization that actually puts religious dogma into play as government law. *cough* *Saudi Arabia* *cough* middle east *cough*
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makare
I thought the point of the forum is to post about random shit we want to talk about. If we have to have a valid reason for making a thread the activity in this place is going to go down to practically zero.
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Steven Soderburgin
The middle east has many, many problems, including heavily orthodox religious rule of many of the sovereign nations there. I'm not ignorant about that at all, and I'm very very disturbed about the kinds of things happening in the Middle East. But with this particular issue, I'm talking about developed and industrialized nations, into which the Catholic Church incredibly far reaching influence using both religious influences and plain old cold hard cash. And with this move, they're using they're announcing their intention to use that power and influence to continue to promote bigotry.
Hate gays and women? Then give Catholicism a try!
-Adam
I'm truly sorry it came to this. Let us never speak of it again.
-Adam
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Chazwozel
All well and good, but they aren't exactly pistol whipping people into joining the church so as I said before, they're not exactly making new bigots or changing anyone's opinion. They're simply attempting to rally together the people that don't agree with the way their current opiate of the masses is swinging. I'd say that's pretty much the foundation of any religion nowadays. Try to bag together as many like-minded people and worship in the way you feel is the 'correct' way. What developed nations are you talking about? The Catholic churches biggest influences are in 3rd world Latin/South Americas and some of 3rd world Africa and Southeast Asia. Developing nations aren't exactly the bastion of education and tolerance for modern ideas to start with.
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Steven Soderburgin
Yeah, I know that it's nothing new. I said that earlier in the thread. I just want to expose this to people so they can see an example of the Church being openly bigoted.
I'm talking about the United States, and the way the Church attempts to influence politics here, such as in Maine: http://www.washblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=26268
At best this is a big advertisement:
"Your favorite coffee shop changed their formula and the coffee tastes different. If you really liked the old taste, you might like our coffee shop - we're willing to change in small ways to serve you."
You may believe it's wrong to serve that formula of coffee, but they are well within their rights not only to serve it, but to openly advertise it and court disaffected customers of a different brand.
-Adam
"Your favorite coffee shop changed their formula and the coffee tastes different. If you really liked the old taste, you might like our coffee shop - we're willing to change in small ways to serve you."
You may believe it's wrong to serve that formula of coffee, but they are well within their rights not only to serve it, but to openly advertise it and court disaffected customers of a different brand.
-Adam
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Steven Soderburgin
Yeah, see, the problem with that analogy is that a formula of coffee isn't going to work to oppress an entire group of people (OR IS IT http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/food_politics/coffee/index.html).
I'm not saying that they can't believe what they believe. I'm saying that what the Church is trying to do is actively oppress gays and women. This isn't about religious belief, it's about human rights.
I'm not saying that they can't believe what they believe. I'm saying that what the Church is trying to do is actively oppress gays and women. This isn't about religious belief, it's about human rights.
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Chazwozel
Well if we're sticking to the United States as topic of discussion. I don't particularly agree with the KKK in the least bit, but they are well within their rights as an organization to practice their idiocy (of course within the law i.e. they can't harass/terrorize people).
Don't Jehovah's Witness people already do something similar to this Catholic campaign (since the inception of Jehovah's Witness religion), where they go door to door and advertise how they believe Catholics, gays, etc... are going to hell?
Hell, I left the Catholic church for almost the opposite reasons this advertising campaign is promoting. I wasn't allowed to marry my wife unless she converted, so I said, 'alright see ya bastards'. Her church was more than welcoming to tie our unholy union.
Don't Jehovah's Witness people already do something similar to this Catholic campaign (since the inception of Jehovah's Witness religion), where they go door to door and advertise how they believe Catholics, gays, etc... are going to hell?
Hell, I left the Catholic church for almost the opposite reasons this advertising campaign is promoting. I wasn't allowed to marry my wife unless she converted, so I said, 'alright see ya bastards'. Her church was more than welcoming to tie our unholy union.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434[/ame]
If you think the KKK or Jehova's Witnesses have any fraction of the power and influence of the Catholic Church, then I don't know what to tell you
Now look, I agree with you that they need to have some changes in their policies and politics, but I don't see how letting disenfranchised Anglicans know they can join their church if they want is actively oppressing gays and women... Maybe you are right, but it's a little unclear over here how you got there.
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Chazwozel
Unless they start throwing bricks and marking 'gay houses' with flaming crosses, they're not violating any human rights.
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Clearly I need to read more Dan Brown novels.
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Steven Soderburgin
Yep, I agree.
They do, and I don't like that from them, either, but they don't have nearly the money, influence, or resources of the Catholic Church.
I'm glad you were able to marry!
Guess what gay people can't do! Guess who wants to keep it that way! (Hint: the answer to the second one could be many things, but the answer I'm looking for has been the main subject of the thread.)
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No, see, this particular move isn't oppressing gays, but it's using the fact that the Church DOES oppress gays to lure people to the fold.
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Chazwozel
Yep, I agree.
They do, and I don't like that from them, either, but they don't have nearly the money, influence, or resources of the Catholic Church.
I'm glad you were able to marry!
Guess what gay people can't do! Guess who wants to keep it that way! (Hint: the answer to the second one could be many things, but the answer I'm looking for has been the main subject of the thread.)[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's entirely the influence of the Catholic church that's holding back that whole can of worms. I'd sooner point to all those wacky bible belt evangelicals in congress.
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Steven Soderburgin
Yeah, they're just giving tons money to political campaigns in support of banning gay marriage. Not restricting any rights at all.
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You're right! It's not entirely the Catholic Church! But a huge amount of money comes from the Church to support bans on gay marriage! And the Church is what we're talking about here!
Are you arguing that an organization's teachings are influencing people not to allow you to marry? I can buy that. But you need to step back and realize that that isn't oppression. You MIGHT be able to get away calling it propoganda.
Okay. The organization in question has a profound influence on people who get to vote on the issues. So does the Republican party, in many cases. Same with the democrats, for that matter. Capitol records has an influence over a few less, but still a decent chunk.
Fuck. Ancestry, particularly among immigrants has a huge effect too. Let's call out China too, then. China is unfriendly toward homosexuality, which is influencing Chinese Americans as well.
Holy shit you're saying there is more than one terrible organization in the world
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Steven Soderburgin
No, see, it's not just the teachings, but the money. Also the fact that women are not equal to men in the eyes of the Church, and gays are HELL OF not equal. But we're getting into a semantics argument. You say propaganda, I say oppression. I say oppression because I couldn't marry my boyfriend today if I wanted to. Further, you're still throwing out red herrings. I'm perfectly aware that there are other terrible organizations in the world. I'm not talking about those right now.
I agree that their dogma is wrongheaded and this advertising push is a dick move, but I don't see the case for opression. Nobody is forced (anymore) to join their club, so let them make all the "no gurlz allowed" signs they want.
I can see why you'd want to keep this kind of stuff in the public eye so the powers that be would hopefully respond with a "no, you guys are dicks" when they try to curry favor, but don't call it opression.
I can see why you'd want to keep this kind of stuff in the public eye so the powers that be would hopefully respond with a "no, you guys are dicks" when they try to curry favor, but don't call it opression.
See ... maybe I don't know Jack, but I just thought that was how politics worked in the U.S. Not being sarcastic or anything. But organization believes X, so they support candidate that believes X. With that support, candidate X gets his message out there. More people hear it, and allow it to affect their ballot on election day.
I don't like that system. But it seems that the real weak link in that system is how many simpletons who don't think about the issues are members of the voting public.
I'm unsure how to deal with this part of your post. I come from a horribly liberal church upbringing when it comes to the gender issue. My denomination has been allowing (hell, encouraging!) women preachers ever since it's establishment in 1865. The founder of the movement once said 'Some of my best men are women.' We were very unpopular for the stance we took way back when, but it was just a matter of being ahead of the curve in that instance.
So the mindset that precludes women from being full members of the clergy is entirely a mystery to me. But I wouldn't up and call it discrimination. And I sincerely doubt it's a matter of believing that women are not equal to men.
I didn't intend any of those organizations as red herrings. In fact, I didn't think any of them were bad organizations, let alone 'terrible' ones. Fact is: there are organizations all over the place in the U.S. that throw money into lobbying, and earning favors from politicians. There are organizations (sometimes the same organizations) that focus on mobilizing the voting public. These organizations have all kinds of platforms, viewpoints, and origins.
You see the Catholic church as playing dirty in this game, by advocating 'bigotry.' I see attempts at disqualifying the Catholic church from the lobbying/voter-influence game as playing dirty.
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Kitty Sinatra
You're right! It's not entirely the Catholic Church! But a huge amount of money comes from the Church to support bans on gay marriage! And the Church is what we're talking about here![/QUOTE]
And yet, up here in Canada, gay marriage was legalized during a time when we had a Catholic Prime Minister. Hell, Canada's probably far more Catholic than y'all. Ontario, the largest province, even has a fully-publicly funded Catholic school system that operates parallel to the Public, secular school system.
Now this is only one example, but I'm fairly confident in saying that the Vatican's influence on most other developed industrial nations is roughly equal to its influence in Canada: Laughably small. That Catholic Prime Minister of ours thumbed his nose at the Vatican when the Pope threatened excommunication.
1700 years ago there were married priests and female priests. Then a bunch of assholes gradually changed the rules over the next 3-400 years until women and sex were not allowed. Then sexual desire itself became a sin 1300 years ago.
The church can change, but only ass fucking backwards it seems.
---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------
And yet, up here in Canada, gay marriage was legalized during a time when we had a Catholic Prime Minister. Hell, Canada's probably far more Catholic than y'all. Ontario, the largest province, even has a fully-publicly funded Catholic school system that operates parallel to the Public, secular school system.
Now this is only one example, but I'm fairly confident in saying that the Vatican's influence on most other developed industrial nations is roughly equal to its influence in Canada: Laughably small. That Catholic Prime Minister of ours thumbed his nose at the Vatican when the Pope threatened excommunication.[/QUOTE]
In my hometown in Alberta (St. Albert), the public school system in the city is Catholic. We were required to have our Religion and CALM 30 classes in order to graduate.
The church can change, but only ass fucking backwards it seems.
---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------
You're right! It's not entirely the Catholic Church! But a huge amount of money comes from the Church to support bans on gay marriage! And the Church is what we're talking about here![/QUOTE]
And yet, up here in Canada, gay marriage was legalized during a time when we had a Catholic Prime Minister. Hell, Canada's probably far more Catholic than y'all. Ontario, the largest province, even has a fully-publicly funded Catholic school system that operates parallel to the Public, secular school system.
Now this is only one example, but I'm fairly confident in saying that the Vatican's influence on most other developed industrial nations is roughly equal to its influence in Canada: Laughably small. That Catholic Prime Minister of ours thumbed his nose at the Vatican when the Pope threatened excommunication.[/QUOTE]
In my hometown in Alberta (St. Albert), the public school system in the city is Catholic. We were required to have our Religion and CALM 30 classes in order to graduate.
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Kitty Sinatra
That's where the altar boys come in.
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Wow. I never knew about that. Is that a decision that each city there makes (Catholic or Secular), or is St Albert too small to support both, or is that really province-wide the only system? Er, what is the Catholic/Secular setup there in Alberta is what I'm asking I guess.
St. Albert is a city sized about 60,000 people. Not huge by any means and it does have non Catholic schools people can choose to put their children into, they're just not the normal public system.
As far as I know, St. Albert was not normal when it came to it's public school system also, nowhere else I've lived had Catholic as it's base system.
As far as I know, St. Albert was not normal when it came to it's public school system also, nowhere else I've lived had Catholic as it's base system.
Our local preschools are all Catholic, and you can stay in that system all the way up to Grade 5 I believe.
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Kitty Sinatra
Yeah, in Ontario you can go all the way up to high school graduation in the Catholic schools - with uniforms 
So there you go Kissinger. We're smurfing indoctrinated in Catholicism by our government and yet we legalized gay marriage.
So there you go Kissinger. We're smurfing indoctrinated in Catholicism by our government and yet we legalized gay marriage.
Spain is traditionally catholic. How are gay people doing around here, since Zapatero came to power?
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Steven Soderburgin
See ... maybe I don't know Jack, but I just thought that was how politics worked in the U.S. Not being sarcastic or anything. But organization believes X, so they support candidate that believes X. With that support, candidate X gets his message out there. More people hear it, and allow it to affect their ballot on election day.
I don't like that system. But it seems that the real weak link in that system is how many simpletons who don't think about the issues are members of the voting public.[/quote]Right, it is how politics works, and people are being misinformed and exploited to try to keep gays from getting equal rights. All I can do is call them out on it.
You aren't Catholic, therefore that complaint doesn't apply to your Church. But if allowing men to become priests and not women ONLY because they are women isn't discrimination, then what is it?
I'm not attempting to disqualify the Church from lobbying/voter-influence (though I do think it's a bit shady that they are a tax exempt organization that tries to influence politics), I'm just calling them out on their bigotry and continued efforts to marginalize women and gays. That's all I can do, and that's all this is.
Canada is far more progressive than America (except when it comes to those gosh darned Indians, where you're right there with us). This shouldn't surprise anyone. They have a much more European social and political mindset than America.
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Kitty Sinatra
Worst damn tech support out there.
Worst damn tech support out there.[/QUOTE]
Damn it! We aren't Indians, damn you all to hell! :angry:
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