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London Riots

Aug 9, 2011#1

Jax

Apparently it started with a protest after the police shot a man dead during an arrest. The protest turned into a riot, and since then has become more and more widespread, even spreading to other cities. A long period of social unrest and criminal oppertunities are mentioned most as reasons for the spread.

I heard about the initial riot before, but now that it's continuing and getting worse (especially with video and photo images) it looks more like a warzone.

I also can't help thinking of V for Vendetta...

Aug 9, 2011#2

DarkAudit

I'm thinking more of the late 70s riots...

Aug 9, 2011#3

twitchmoss

the riots have been spreading, and its getting kind of worrying. I heard an hour ago that the broadwalk center in edgware had its windows smashed in, and someone tried to set fire to the post office; and thats... really kind of too close to home, since not only do my grandparents live five minutes from where it happened, but its about 20 minutes from where i live.

on the bright side, theres been a spontaneous clean up operation organised through twitter. 32,000 people following the official thing last i checked. its operation riotwombles!

Aug 9, 2011#4

Dave

Much as they do in the US, this has moved beyond protest into all-out anarchy and an excuse to loot shit.

Aug 9, 2011#5

Jay

Pretty much.

I think new procedures should be implemented to stop such protests. I think the moment the looting has begune, riot control are allowed to use force and rubber bullets.

Peaceful protests are fine. Putting shit on fire because you just want to be a weak weak person and get some free shit is unacceptable.

Aug 9, 2011#6

Charlie Don't Surf

Fuck the police.

Aug 9, 2011#7

Math242

White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own

Aug 9, 2011#8

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Fuck the police.

Defend this statement in the context of the London riots. Remember, they started after a guy was shot and killed in an exchange of gunfire with police. So it wasn't an execution of an unarmed man.

Aug 9, 2011#9

Shegokigo

Aw cmon Dave, he doesn't set the bait for posters like you.

Aug 9, 2011#10

Charlie Don't Surf

That was the spark, yes. The kindling was the police state and oppression of minorities.
Added at: 08:59
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?
"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"
The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."
Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

Aug 9, 2011#11

Dave

So instead of "fuck the police", what social changes would you suggest?

Aug 9, 2011#12

DarkAudit

twitchmoss said:
the riots have been spreading, and its getting kind of worrying. I heard an hour ago that the broadwalk center in edgware had its windows smashed in, and someone tried to set fire to the post office; and thats... really kind of too close to home, since not only do my grandparents live five minutes from where it happened, but its about 20 minutes from where i live.

on the bright side, theres been a spontaneous clean up operation organised through twitter. 32,000 people following the official thing last i checked. its operation riotwombles!

Not to hijack the thread, but how are you doing? Still in hospital?

Aug 9, 2011#13

Jay

Is he getting his head permanently stitched up his ass?

Aug 9, 2011#14

Charlie Don't Surf

Dave said:
So instead of "fuck the police", what social changes would you suggest?

Stop treating minorities like criminals.

Aug 9, 2011#15

Jay

Being white is too mainstream.

Aug 9, 2011#16

DarkAudit

The tweets I've seen overnight from the likes of Neil Gaiman and Will Buxton (SPEED TV F1 reporter) refer to the rioters as "evil", "scum", and "dickheads".

Hard to start a dialogue when that's how the higher end of society sees the rioters. No effort to separate the smash-and-grab opportunists from those with a legitimate beef.

And no, I have no answers. Hard enough trying to keep my own head above water here.

Aug 9, 2011#17

Jay

I'll say this as plainly as I can.

Manifestations NEVER EVER need to resort to violence and looting and burning other people's properties is unacceptable. If you feel otherwise, kindly die.

This said, if you're at a manisfestation where it degenerates into a riot and such actions happen, you leave. Don't stand there like a mass of meat that they can use to shield themselves to commit the acts. Don't stand there taking pictures. Get the fuck out. Don't try to stop it, leave calmly.

Personally, I have absolutely no issues if police use force to stop these things from happening. Over what? Losing or winning a hockey game? Because some smuck died in a police shootout? Get over your self-importance. Police should go in with crying gas and rubber bullets and put them in jail.

Isn't it in the U.K they can jail you for a MONTH without having to charge you anyways?

Use that. Trust me, people won't be out there doing this shit when they are stuck in jail for a month, losing touch with reality and their jobs and livelyhood.

Aug 9, 2011#18

Charlie Don't Surf

http://anedumacation.tumblr.com/post/8668869232/the-london-riots

Again, events are multifaceted, cultural and racial groups are not monolithic, and many things about a situation can be true at the same time. Reductionism is dangerous. Simplicity is dangerous. There are no easy, one line answers. They don’t exist, because life isn’t like that.
The following ideas do not contradict each other.
1. There are real socio-economic and political reasons for why this riot occurred. Urban violence committed by youth and marginalized people of color does not happen in a vacuum. When you neglect a community for so long, when you treat its residents as criminals-by-default who must then prove themselves to be citizens, when you treat these communities as problem areas to be hemmed in and monitored, instead of nurtured, when tax money goes to law enforcement, not schools and development — this is what happens.
Do NOT believe what the law enforcement or the media has to say about this. The institutions of power have a vested interest in protecting the status quo, which is the continued existence of the police state in poor communities of color in London, and in similar cities across the Western world. The rioters are not individual hooligans taking advantage of a bad situation. This is not an argument for more police control, for taking away social spending, or longer prison sentences.
The official reaction to these riots confirms what activists from these communities have been saying for years; poor kids of color are either a) irrelevant to mainstream society, or if they are finally noticed are b) only seen as criminals. There’s very little opportunity for poor youth to be seen as the nuanced, complicated, diverse beings that they are. That’s intentional. The status quo is reinforced every time minority youth are seen as a terrifying, brainless monolith. That is what the mainstream media is going to try to do to these kids. Do not let them.
2. Its silly to pretend that all of this violence is directed, focused, and political in intent. A powderkeg of repressed anger and energy has exploded, and London is feeling the consequence of that. It doesn’t mean London deserves the violence, or that the rioters are correct in their actions. The rioters are not innocents, fighting back the only way they can against a corrupt police state. They are culpable. Their behavior cannot be excused by their political intentions; political violence cannot be purified or sanctified or reduced into something palatable and easily digestible by an ideology. Political violence is still violence, the same old beast we’ve engaged with for millions of years. Nothing changes that.

You run over me, doesn’t matter how oppressed you are. You still ran over me. I’m still dead. There are a lot of people, innocent people, who are going to lose their lives, their livelihoods, and their homes. People who we know are in danger.
Don’t you dare try to paper over that.

Aug 9, 2011#19

Jay

Aug 9, 2011#20

Espy

After reading the link Charlie posted...

Local young men, almost all with their heads covered by hoods -- known here as "hoodies" -- took advantage to indulge themselves in a favorite sport: cursing the police. This quickly escalated into a night of hurling rocks, bottles (Jack Daniels, one young man told me -- "we broke into the liquor store, drank the Jack Daniels and threw the bottles at the cops"), burning two patrol cars, torching buildings, smashing shop windows and carting off hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of phones, cameras and clothes.

I'm not so sure, getting drunk, destroying someones business and then attacking the police and then stealing is the way you handle social problems.

And I'm more than a little concerned that anyone thinks thats the only way to get any attention.

In fact, after reading charlies article I'm convinced that anything positive anyone wanted to come from this got lost right away by the general greed and hate of the rioters. These people need help, but they have chosen to go about getting attention by becoming criminals. How on earth is that going to change anything? If anything it's only going to be worse now for them. It's a very sad state of affairs it seems.

And when did England become a "corrupt police state"? I thought it was a strong multi-cultural state, great free healthcare for all and a good economy? I thought things were good there for people (of course I don't read tons of news about England but that was my impression...).

Aug 9, 2011#21

Jay

I'M BEING RACIALLY OPPRESSED

No.... there are the one's being racially oppressed.

Fuck that shit.

Aug 9, 2011#22

blotsfan

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Stop treating minorities like criminals.

Tell the minorities to stop acting like criminals when upset.

Aug 9, 2011#23

Charlie Don't Surf

Eat the rich.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/08/crisis-of-ideology-and-political.html

Aug 9, 2011#24

Jay

Espy said:
And when did England become a "corrupt police state"? I thought it was a strong multi-cultural state, great free healthcare for all and a good economy? I thought things were good there for people (of course I don't read tons of news about England but that was my impression...).

It's pretty much that. London is a very beautiful city and racism is NO WHERE close to what you see today, even in the U.S. Very cultural.

And I agree with you by stating that this shit does no favors to help fix any little social issues they had.

Video below for LET'S FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHT BY...

Aug 9, 2011#25

Charlie Don't Surf

blotsfan said:
Tell the minorities to stop acting like criminals when upset.

The amount of privilege in this statement is staggering.

Aug 9, 2011#26

Espy

Jay said:
It's pretty much that. London is a very beautiful city and racism is NO WHERE close to what you see today, even in the U.S. Very cultural.

And I agree with you by stating that this shit does no favors to help fix any little social issues they had.

Yeah, it's really just going to make everything that much worse I have a feeling. Felt oppressed and dumped on by society before this? Well after you looted, burned and rioted the last few days I have a feeling you will have lost many real supporters to your cause over there.

Aug 9, 2011#27

Dave

And just in case you think these looters (of whatever race) are looking out for their fellows, check out this video.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

Aug 9, 2011#28

Adammon

If there were real socio-economic and political reasons for this riot, why does it appear a riot comprised of mainly youth; youth who don't vote and youth who don't work? They aren't disenfranchised, they are disenchanted - with a system that gives them the same rights and privileges as the person next to them. That isn't fair, Charlie would say. They deserve more.

Yeah, they deserve a fire hose to the face. I have friends in Easling who are afraid to go outside with their kid because of the morons outside her door. What socio-economic and political arguments are being made there? That working-class people need to have their stuff redistributed to the have-nots?

As terrible as it is to say, this is where Anders Breivik got his lunacy from.

Aug 9, 2011#29

Shegokigo

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The amount of privilege in this statement is staggering.

Hahahahahahahahahaha
Priceless! Bravo Charlie, bravo!

Aug 9, 2011#30

Biannoshufu

Shegokigo said:
Hahahahahahahahahaha
Priceless! Bravo Charlie, bravo!

yeah, I had to reread it twice.
Also, where are the sonic weapons our Army has? Couldn't we rent those things out per diem?

Aug 9, 2011#31

Cajungal

I have friends in London... Hope they stay safe.

Aug 9, 2011#32

Jax

Just saw a woman jumping for her life out of a burning building on a live BBC News feed.
So much for the rioters 'fighting for justice'...

Aug 9, 2011#33

Shegokigo

I have to say, my trip to London this month was very productive.

Aug 9, 2011#34

Dave

Shegokigo said:
I have to say, my trip to London this month was very productive.

Ooh! She's BACK, baby!

Aug 9, 2011#35

@Li3n

Espy said:
a good economy?

Are you posting from early 2007 by any chance?

Aug 9, 2011#36

Jax

Well, at least England hasn't been forced to raise their debt ceiling yet...

Aug 9, 2011#37

Charlie Don't Surf

Every country with a AAA credit rating has Universal Healthcare.

Aug 9, 2011#38

Shegokigo

I really enjoy having real police officers on our boards, who can post from experience and put things straight.

Note: I am only acknowledging these very specific police officers as on my exception list.

Aug 9, 2011#39

Frankie Williamson

That makes me feel gushy but I was wrong about the flyer sadly. News reports say they're real. They are just slightly changed from an earlier version of the exact same flyer.

Aug 9, 2011#40

Shegokigo

And I went through the trouble of making this:

Oh well.

Aug 9, 2011#41

Espy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Every country with a AAA credit rating has Universal Healthcare.

So they already have it better than much of the world. Talk about privilege...

Aug 9, 2011#42

Frankie Williamson

I think it's pretty awesome that Charlie likes to get offended when someone mentions liking the way a female actor or celebrity looks but seems to be totally cool with rioters burning down small businesses, some of which have stood for centuries, in London.

Aug 9, 2011#43

Shegokigo

Sometimes I want to believe that he actually believes what he writes, but 9/10 it really just comes off as "against the grain" simply to be "against the grain" and rile people up. I'm starting to compare him, mentally, to Westboro....

Aug 9, 2011#44

Frankie Williamson

It's too ridiculous to be real most of the time, I would agree.

Aug 9, 2011#45

Charlie Don't Surf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/09/london-riots-day-four-live-blog#block-63

BREAKING: The Independent Police Complaints Commission has just announced that there is no evidence that Mark Duggan opened fire at police officers before he was shot dead, according to ballistic test results, reports the Press Association.

Aug 9, 2011#46

Frankie Williamson

Yes, that does warrant the current carnage in London. Absolutely.

Aug 9, 2011#47

Shegokigo

I agree, the fact that they shot first totally validates the destruction of innocent property and endangerment of lives

Edit:
Ninjaed by the popo!

Always keeping the brown woman down!!

Aug 9, 2011#48

Frankie Williamson

Aug 9, 2011#49

twitchmoss

I have to say, this made me smile. even with all this going on, some things don't change.

tea up!

the first comment on reddit was great too. "you're supposed to put the milk in AFTERWARDS! i know theres riots on, but some things are just not DONE''

and yes thats tea being served on a riot shield.
my friend works at a greggs a few miles from ealing tomorrow, i hope he's ok.
btw DA, still in hospital, thanks for asking. not riot related, so i'll be brief. the wifi's here block irc and the like, but i should be out tomorrow, for a few days at least. sudden discovery of anemia.

Aug 9, 2011#50

Adammon

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Every country with a AAA credit rating has Universal Healthcare.

Because you just like repeating memes, here's what I learned in 5 minutes of research.

And a tonne of other countries with Universal Healthcare don't have an AAA credit rating.

Japan AA-
Belgium AA+
Kuwait AA
Bahrain BBB
Slovenia AA
Ireland BBB+
Italy A+
Portugal BBB-
Cyprus BBB+
Spain AA
Israel AA-

Which leads me to believe that credit rating has nothing to do with Universal Healthcare access.

Aug 9, 2011#51

Shegokigo

He wont respond to that, never does when he's blatantly trolling but really nice find none the less Ada.

Aug 9, 2011#52

Chad Sexington

It gets worse. Credit rating might not be a good indicator of, you know, credit rating. http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/why-s-p-s-ratings-are-substandard-and-porous

Aug 9, 2011#53

Charlie Don't Surf

The important part of that isn't that Universal Healthcare magically gives a AAA credit rating.

It's that the United States' broken private system is part of the unholy mess that prevents them from having a AAA credit rating. The USA might regain AAA without universal healthcare anyways, though.

Aug 9, 2011#54

Shegokigo

Yet that isn't the context in which you posted that, is it? You were clearly tying the two together till it was proven false.

C'mon kiddo, just bite the bullet when your troll falls short. I usually use a winky face. Troll bait loves winky faces.

Aug 9, 2011#55

Dave

Holy cow! I think I dated Bahrain! I remember her BBBs very well!

Aug 9, 2011#56

Adammon

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The important part of that isn't that Universal Healthcare magically gives a AAA credit rating.

It's that the United States' broken private system is part of the unholy mess that prevents them from having a AAA credit rating. The USA might regain AAA without universal healthcare anyways, though.

So the point you're trying to make is that you just post things without understanding what you're posting or caring what you're posting. Gotcha.

Westboro.

Aug 9, 2011#57

IronBrig4

Whatever happened to just shooting looters on sight?

Aug 9, 2011#58

Frankie Williamson

Britons don't generally own guns.

Aug 9, 2011#59

Charlie Don't Surf

IronBrig4 said:
Whatever happened to just shooting looters on sight?

Some parts of the world have evolved past the Wild West or Texas.

Aug 9, 2011#60

Frankie Williamson

Are those the parts where unruly thugs are raping, looting and destroying everything they can?

Aug 9, 2011#61

Adammon

The last riot in Texas was 1943. Want to know why?

Because you'll get fucking shot if you try to break into someone else's property. Makes sense, no?

Aug 9, 2011#62

AshburnerX

IronBrig4 said:
Whatever happened to just shooting looters on sight?

That's a little hard when you live in a nation where very few civilians have guns. Also, if the police started using that kind of force, it wouldn't play well on the news the following day. The story wouldn't be "Police defend city from looters", it would be "Police massacre unarmed mob".

Aug 9, 2011#63

@Li3n

Adammon said:
The last riot in Texas was 1943. Want to know why?

Because you'll get fucking shot if you try to break into someone else's property. Makes sense, no?

So in 1943 they finally allowed Texans to have guns...

Aug 9, 2011#64

Adammon

Jax said:
Well, at least England hasn't been forced to raise their debt ceiling yet...

The only other country in the world that has a 'debt ceiling' similar to the US is Denmark.

Aug 9, 2011#65

Charlie Don't Surf

Adammon said:
Because you'll get fucking shot if you try to break into someone else's property. Makes sense, no?

Nope, killing people for attempted robbery does not make sense at all.

Aug 9, 2011#66

Covar

Frankie Williamson said:
Britons don't generally own guns.

what about farmers?

Aug 9, 2011#67

Frankie Williamson

I have no idea, I would assume they'd have long barrel guns as I don't know a single farmer that doesn't. It's kind of a farm necessity.

Aug 9, 2011#68

twitchmoss

or farmers mums.

Aug 9, 2011#69

Adammon

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Nope, killing people for attempted robbery does not make sense at all.

Robbing people does not make sense at all either.

Aug 9, 2011#70

Frankie Williamson

twitchmoss said:
or farmers mums.

When I miss a Hot Fuzz reference, I'm supposed to get an eyeful of OC. It's the rules.

Aug 9, 2011#71

Covar

Frankie Williamson said:
When I miss a Hot Fuzz reference, I'm supposed to get an eyeful of OC. It's the rules.

Aug 9, 2011#72

Dave

A face full of Officer Charon? Kinky!

Aug 9, 2011#73

doomdragon6

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I'm sorry, but Charlie is just hilarious. I tip my hat to your trolling, sir, I wish I could be as good as you.

Actually, it's kind of fun having an "other argument" bot around just for the sake of excercising argument!

/stirring up shit for no reason

Aug 9, 2011#74

Officer_Charon

How's that 1st Amendment working for you, Charlie? Or your execrable white guilt?

When a SWAT team knocks down your front door for trolling, then you can feel qualified to speak about oppression.

These people are living in poor socio-economic conditions, it's true. The regrettable consequence of such is an increased crime rate, usually resulting from people who are too lazy to see a way out or are hampered by circumstances (often of their own making) from being able to climb out of them.

I don't know what I'm talking about? Approximately 90% of the people I deal with (math may be fuzzy, because, you know, I'm a blue collar worker with a high school education - I dun no nuffin about no numberz), both in a criminal capacity and a complainant capacity are in poor economic straits due to an inability to obtain a decent-paying job that often results from prior convictions, or only working a single low-income job part-time.

Now, I will not be so crass as to say that "all brown people are lazy," but I know that's how you're going to take it.

Also, I don't know how you do it, but you are capable of trolling the shit out of me in a manner that NO-ONE, online or off, is EVER capable of doing.

I mean, hell, I was even able to have a civil discussion with LEQUACK.

Aug 9, 2011#75

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't know how to have a civil discussion with someone that seriously thinks most poor people are poor because they're lazy and make bad decisions.

Aug 9, 2011#76

Officer_Charon

Bite me, you pusillanimous [redacted]. I stated that people who _I_ deal with, as an officer.

Penguins are black and white, but not all black and white things are penguins.

Please no name calling.

Aug 9, 2011#77

Espy

Adammon said:
Robbing people does not make sense at all either.

Well yeah, but it's cool because they have stuff you don't. Duh.

Added at: 16:15

Officer_Charon said:
I mean, hell, I was even able to have a civil discussion with LEQUACK.

WOW.

Aug 9, 2011#78

strawman

Dear Charlie:

Aug 9, 2011#79

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm not reading your xkcd comic or whatever, sorry

Aug 9, 2011#80

Chibibar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I don't know how to have a civil discussion with someone that seriously thinks most poor people are poor because they're lazy and make bad decisions.

Actually, that is what I was taught. A person can do anything if they really put their mind to it. Sure there are obstacles in the way, but usually there are some ways to get around it (even with a billions of red tapes) it is all matter of the drive to get away from where you are.

My parents were poor. They didn't born with silver spoons in their mouth. They work hard and use every legal system to work their way up. My mom work extra hard cause being Asian female in Taiwan doesn't really offer as much opportunity. She do the best she can in any situation and work her way up. Was it easy? heck no!

My wife came from a poor family. She use to live in tents. She refuse to go back that kind of life. She work hard and improve herself for a better living. We finally own a house now (5 years now) and work hard to keep it.

There are some people who maybe thrown into the situation they can't avoid (i.e. losing their home, job, family) but they can either wallow in their misery or pick themselves up and move on. It is a choice. There are even programs out there to help people get back on their feet. (government and local if you know where to look)

Aug 9, 2011#81

Jay

If Socrates himself tried to explain his philosophy to a dog he could talk on for days on end until he was blue in the face and the dog will never understand it. This doesn't mean his philosophy is wrong or that he is bad at explaining it. It doesn't even mean that the dog is stupid for being a dog. Sometimes things don't happen the way you'd like them to.

If the "philosophy" was "common sense" and Socrates was "a constructive member of society" then Charlie is the dog.

Long story short, don't criticize something just because it's outside your ability to comprehend how things work beyond the shitty gimmick poster that you have always been. You pusillanimous redacted!

Ahem.

Aug 9, 2011#82

Frankie Williamson

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I don't know how to have a civil discussion with someone that seriously thinks most poor people are poor because they're lazy and make bad decisions.

Yeah, I mean, not always but often enough those are the reasons people are poor.

I was poor, depressed, lazy and fat. My longtime girlfriend dumped me because of what a mess I was and it was sort of the catalyst which changed my life. I lost 80 pounds, got into shape and joined the RCMP and now I make enough money that I'm buying my first house next month and shouldn't have much of a mortgage to look after and I'm also paying for my younger brother's college education so he won't be debt crippled when he's done.

And before I get called on the white thing, despite being metis, I'm not a visible minority so that meant I needed a higher level of physical fitness and higher test scores to be accepted into the RCMP than females or visible minorities.

Aug 9, 2011#83

Jax

Officer_Charon said:
Now, I will not be so crass as to say that "all brown people are lazy," but I know that's how you're going to take it.

Wow, your prediction came true. I would've thought Charlie would put an argument against that statement, but he just steamrolls through it and everything else.. Maybe that's the reason for your 'irkiness'

I can't wait for that "ignore a person" feature :rolleyes:

Latest update:
over 560 people arrested, a police force of 16.000 pouring into London. Time to end this shit.

Aug 9, 2011#84

Officer_Charon

Apparently a friend of mine from primary school is going to be one of them.... I didn't even know she was a cop. Go figure! Facebook is a great way to keep in touch with folks...

Aug 9, 2011#85

Jay

Jax said:
Wow, your prediction came true. I would've thought Charlie would put an argument against that statement, but he just steamrolls through it and everything else.. Maybe that's the reason for your 'irkiness'

I can't wait for that "ignore a person" feature

Latest update:
over 560 people arrested, a police force of 16.000 pouring into London. Time to end this shit.

Finally.... and they can be jailed for 28 days without even being charged and it is COMPLETELY LEGAL.

Aug 9, 2011#86

Frankie Williamson

Whoa, that's not cool.

Aug 9, 2011#87

Chibibar

Jax said:
Wow, your prediction came true. I would've thought Charlie would put an argument against that statement, but he just steamrolls through it and everything else.. Maybe that's the reason for your 'irkiness'

I can't wait for that "ignore a person" feature

Latest update:
over 560 people arrested, a police force of 16.000 pouring into London. Time to end this shit.

you know, I guess I don't have the mental capacity to understand on "How does a riot = protest against a man getting shot by a cop?"

Aug 9, 2011#88

Officer_Charon

Yeah... a touch on the overboard side... while I admit that 48 hours is not always enough to work with, if the case is weak, a month is too much.

Aug 9, 2011#89

Frankie Williamson

I'm kind of jealous of the 48 hour thing.

Aug 9, 2011#90

Jay

Who says it was due to a lack of "time" to process?

More like, "I'll fuck with your life and it's completely legal, next time don't piss me off".

I'm Thumbs up on that. The fuck is with Canada with 1 day?

Aug 9, 2011#91

Officer_Charon

Frankie Williamson said:
I'm kind of jealous of the 48 hour thing.

http://boourns.cjb.net/thumb/pics.hatercops.jpg

(being that he's disabled hotlinking... an amusing picture of officers on segways)

Aug 9, 2011#92

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm not reading your xkcd comic or whatever, sorry

No need to apologize, but I appreciate the gesture.

Aug 9, 2011#93

Frankie Williamson

Actually, our Anti-Terrorism Act brought it up to 3 days so, yeah only if the person of interest is terrorism related which in our case here, in my time here, is 0%.

Aug 9, 2011#94

@Li3n

Frankie Williamson said:
Yeah, I mean, not always but often enough those are the reasons people are poor.

I was poor, depressed, lazy and fat. My longtime girlfriend dumped me because of what a mess I was and it was sort of the catalyst which changed my life. I lost 80 pounds, got into shape and joined the RCMP and now I make enough money that I'm buying my first house next month and shouldn't have much of a mortgage to look after and I'm also paying for my younger brother's college education so he won't be debt crippled when he's done.

And before I get called on the white thing, despite being metis, I'm not a visible minority so that meant I needed a higher level of physical fitness and higher test scores to be accepted into the RCMP than females or visible minorities.

And i'm sure if everyone else did that too resources would all of a sudden stop being limited and we'd all be rich...

Ah, oversimplification, how we love thee...

Aug 9, 2011#95

Adammon

Westboro Baptist Charlie ain't gonna care while he's got "The Man" to rail against.

Aug 9, 2011#96

Frankie Williamson

@Li3n said:
And i'm sure if everyone else did that too resources would all of a sudden stop being limited and we'd all be rich...

Ah, oversimplification, how we love thee...

You're right, most people just stay lazy and poor. MORE OVERSIMPLIFICATION!

Aug 9, 2011#97

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
And i'm sure if everyone else did that too resources would all of a sudden stop being limited and we'd all be rich...

Ah, oversimplification, how we love thee...

resources are in place because such systems are needed to help people who wanted help. Now of course there are people who takes advantage of the system (like Welfare) and of course there are people who are just unable to work (due to age, physical disabilities or other medical conditions)

Aug 9, 2011#98

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm not reading your xkcd comic or whatever, sorry

I'm pretty sure you're not even reading considering your response to Charon. You're not even following a discussion from one topic to the next, you're just randomly spamming your usual problems. I mean, healthcare? Where the hell did that come from?

I am Liking Shego's posts up and down this thread. And I feel like Shego's not getting responses from Charlie because he's terrified of talking to a non-white woman and saying something he might later see as oppressing her.

Aug 9, 2011#99

Chibibar

Quotemander Prime said:
I'm pretty sure you're not even reading considering your response to Charon. You're not even following a discussion from one topic to the next, you're just randomly spamming your usual problems. I mean, healthcare? Where the hell did that come from?

I am Liking Shego's posts up and down this thread. And I feel like Shego's not getting responses from Charlie because he's terrified of talking to a non-white woman and saying something he might later see as oppressing her.

I think it is more of a fear that Shego will shoot him.

Aug 9, 2011#100

Charlie Don't Surf

Chibibar said:
I think it is more of a fear that Shego will shoot him.

I actually don't care about or believe a word of her faux-murderous psychopath persona.

Aug 9, 2011#101

Shegokigo

Adammon said:
Westboro Baptist Charlie ain't gonna care while he's got "The Man" to rail against.

Wow, that's comedy genius Ada. Seriously, WBC is what I'm going to think now, every time he posts, until he gets away from this game he's been playing and gets back to posting the way he used to. When it was possible to have lengthy, interesting conversations with him.

Quotemander Prime said:
I am Liking Shego's posts up and down this thread. And I feel like Shego's not getting responses from Charlie because he's terrified of talking to a non-white woman and saying something he might later see as oppressing her.

It's funny because I kept thinking to myself "I can only imagine if we had a very outspoken black member on our forums" just for the sheer joy it would bring to see WBC swallow his words.

Chibibar said:
I think it is more of a fear that Shego will shoot him.

Totally not worth the bullet. Now other, non-wasteful ways of removing him from conversations.....

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I actually don't care about or believe a word of her faux-murderous psychopath persona.

You know, that hurt. Coming from you Charlie? That really stung.

Aug 9, 2011#102

Officer_Charon

Shegokigo said:
Totally not worth the bullet. Now other, non-wasteful ways of removing him from conversations.....

Careful... might start a riot....

Aug 9, 2011#103

Charlie Don't Surf

Officer_Charon said:
Careful... might start a riot....

Well I am a minority here that challenges the status quo

but no one here cares about me

Aug 9, 2011#104

Adammon

Officer_Charon said:
Careful... might start a riot....

Naw, as you have already posted, only poor, black people riot. You racist.
Added at: 23:33

Westboro Baptist Charlie said:
Well I am a minority here that challenges the status quo

but no one here cares about me

You got one of the two statements there right. I'll leave it up to you to discover which one is correct.
Added at: 23:35

Adammon said:
Naw, as you have already posted, only poor, black people riot. You racist.
Added at: 23:33

You got one of the two statements there right. I'll leave it up to you to discover which one is correct.

Which reminds me, whatever happened to your "roommate" Screechy McDouchebag? I can't even remember his name anymore.

Aug 9, 2011#105

Espy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Well I am a minority here that challenges the status quo

You are in the minority here in that you won't actually have a conversation with anyone. You are just random bombing which is why people think you troll.

Charlie Don't Surf said:
but no one here cares about me

I think you would be surprised how many people enjoy your posts and even your points of view when you take time to discuss them be they about movies or politics.

Aug 9, 2011#106

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
but no one here cares about me

Really? I always thought that I treated you well. I'm wounded.

Aug 9, 2011#107

Jay

Espy said:
I think you would be surprised how many people enjoy your posts and even your points of view when you take time to discuss them be they about movies or politics.

lol what?

you serious?

Aug 9, 2011#108

Hailey Knight

Shegokigo said:
You know, that hurt. Coming from you Charlie? That really stung.

Well, it's only fair. You don't believe in his contradictory pro-looting anarchist socialist hippie feminazi persona.

Aug 9, 2011#109

Espy

Jay said:
lol what?

you serious?

Totally. I've had some great talks with chuck about movies and stuff.

Aug 9, 2011#110

Charlie Don't Surf

Let's not make this thread about me. It should be about all those suffering currently, and in the past from London's police state.

Aug 9, 2011#111

Hailey Knight

Person: "If a guy sticks up a gas station owner and takes money from the register, and then a cop arrests the robber, who did wrong in this situation?"
Charlie: "Tell me the skin colors of the individuals involved."

Aug 9, 2011#112

Shegokigo

I'm gonna give some major thumbs up to Jax. This thread has been fantastic. Thank you!

Aug 9, 2011#113

Mathias

Actually, Charlie is 100% spot on as to what incited the riots. And I'm dead serious here. It is the system. Everything about it. Capitalism - in the sense that creates social stratification so huge that you get things like the London riots. Minorities being shuffled into the mostly poor demographic is why you always see this sort of thing spark over the murder or public injustice of a minority i.e. Rodney King. In that specific example, it didn't matter who King was, or what he did. What was shown was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of a poverty stricken population.

Zeitgeist Moving Forward is a pretty good documentary that summarizes a lot of why the world is so fucked up. I don't particularly buy the last bit on Peter Joseph's solutions to the world's problems, but the first three parts of the film are pretty spot on.

Aug 9, 2011#114

Espy

Something similar happened in France recently as well. Mostly lower soci0-economic muslim youth who couldn't get hired, generally due to racism. It doesn't make the rioting right, but it means you can't just sweep it under the rug and say, oh it's because they are just bad people. It's not that easy.

Aug 9, 2011#115

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Well I am a minority here that challenges the status quo

but no one here cares about me

I may completely differ with you on certain feminist ideals, but when it comes to socioeconomic problems, I see eye to eye with you.

Aug 9, 2011#116

Chad Sexington

But to refer to the UK as a police state is... not correct. I mean, there are really people suffering under legitimate police states. If you live in a country where you can organize and express your discontent, and you get ignored, here's a tip: you're not living in a police state.

Aug 9, 2011#117

Mathias

Espy said:
Something similar happened in France recently as well. Mostly lower socie-economic muslim youth who couldn't get hired, generally due to racism. It doesn't make the rioting right, but it means you can't just sweep it under the rug and say, oh it's because they are just bad people. It's not that easy.

Rioting like this isn't something that happens due to consensus. You're right. People who loot are not evil. They're taking advantage of a situation that's a direct result of being fucked over all their lives. Everyone can pretty much agree that it's not right to loot stores. People who do it don't magically lack morals. Furthermore, the argument that poor people are lazy and drug users and that's why they're poor is a cop out. I don't even know where to start ripping up Officer Charon's comment. The system is what holds everyone down to their born-in class. If anyone actually believes the U.S.A/U.K. rags to riches bullshit, I don't even think I can hold a serious discussion with them about this. Sure, a few people get lucky, but wealth (especially in America) is due to what family you're born into and as a result who you know. For example, does anyone seriously think that a Harvard education is any better than Po-dunk University? You get into Harvard through wealth, and you graduate from Harvard with wealthy connections. I could write a thesis on this. I really could, but all I can say to sum up is:

It's easy to swing the judgmental pendulum in moral direction when you've never lived in somewhere like South L.A.. But what the fuck would you do in that same situation? Put yourself in their shoes. You WOULD do the same thing. You would loot your heart out, and then the media would happily show images of you and your minority friends and family doing the same thing to perpetuate the notion that "those niggers are violent and bad." Yeah, sorry, no matter how politically correct CNN, FoxNews, and all the other bullshit news stations act to be, in the end THAT word is exactly what they want their audience to think of all minorities. It's just a sickening, huge cycle.
Added at: 19:43

Chad Sexington said:
But to refer to the UK as a police state is... not correct. I mean, there are really people suffering under legitimate police states. If you live in a country where you can organize and express your discontent, and you get ignored, here's a tip: you're not living in a police state.

You're talking as though a sparked riot is something that's organized. When you have a lot of angry people focusing that energy in one spot, it's not going to be pretty.

Aug 9, 2011#118

Shegokigo

There's a line between looting because you feel justified because the system kept you down and purposefully trashing and setting a place on fire.

Aug 9, 2011#119

Jay

Aug 9, 2011#120

Shegokigo

Who's really making out here like looters? Amazon!

Aug 9, 2011#121

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
There's a line between looting because you feel justified because the system kept you down and purposefully trashing and setting a place on fire.

I could argue that mob rule and mass hysteria do not involve rational thought out logic. It's not even about justification. It's about grabbing a small piece of the pie for yourself. Of course, it's all rooted in the whole propaganda of Capitalistic greed that's pumped into our brains since birth.

Aug 9, 2011#122

Chad Sexington

Mathias said:
You're talking as though a sparked riot is something that's organized. When you have a lot of angry people focusing that energy in one spot, it's not going to be pretty.

Oh, sorry, that's not what I meant, but I see the confusion. What I'm saying is that people who can organize (under 'normal' circumstances) to protest, or form advocacy groups, etc. are not being oppressed by the state. I understand that riot is not usually a coordinated event.

Aug 9, 2011#123

Shegokigo

Mathias said:
I could argue that mob rule and mass hysteria do not involve rational thought out logic. It's not even about justification. It's about grabbing a small piece of the pie for yourself. Of course, it's all rooted in the whole propaganda of Capitalistic greed that's pumped into our brains since birth.

I repeat, grabbing something for yourself is one thing. Burning down a city block is another. I would know.

Aug 9, 2011#124

Mathias

Chad Sexington said:
Oh, sorry, that's not what I meant, but I see the confusion. What I'm saying is that people who can organize (under 'normal' circumstances) to protest, or form advocacy groups, etc. are not being oppressed by the state. I understand that riot is not usually a coordinated event.

Well, I'd say yes and no. I mean we can freely protest in the USA over various state issues. The state won't deny your right to protest, but that doesn't mean it won't continue setting up nanny type laws that are on the fringe of police state. But yeah, I doubt you could protest the state in China, like you can in the US.

Aug 9, 2011#125

Officer_Charon

Perhaps but a single example but... This man is an example of boot-strapping of the finest order. The community he was born into is one that I patrol on occasion, and is notorious in the area for being the go-to spot for crack and, increasingly, meth.

But he realized what he had to do, buckled down in school, and applied himself. I have nothing but respect for him.

Yes, perhaps I was far too generic in my statements... I had an image in my mind of what I wanted to say, but it didn't come across as cleanly as I wanted it to.

Mathias: Your final argument there is sort of lacking, though... look at the Vancouver riots, sparked by nothing more than a hockey loss. The primary demographic there was middle class white youths, looting and pillaging just the same as anyone else... and I challenge you to tell me that Vancouver is an oppressive society.

Aug 9, 2011#126

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
I repeat, grabbing something for yourself is one thing. Burning down a city block is another. I would know.

And I also repeat that mob rule doesn't give a crap about what's right and wrong. In the heat of the moment, it's no holds barred.

Aug 9, 2011#127

Hailey Knight

Mathias said:
And I also repeat that mob rule doesn't give a crap about what's right and wrong. In the heat of the moment, it's no holds barred.

Whether a person is conscious of it at the time doesn't change what it is.

Aug 9, 2011#128

Mathias

Officer_Charon said:
Perhaps but a single example but... This man is an example of boot-strapping of the finest order. The community he was born into is one that I patrol on occasion, and is notorious in the area for being the go-to spot for crack and, increasingly, meth.

But he realized what he had to do, buckled down in school, and applied himself. I have nothing but respect for him.

Yes, perhaps I was far too generic in my statements... I had an image in my mind of what I wanted to say, but it didn't come across as cleanly as I wanted it to.

Mathias: Your final argument there is sort of lacking, though... look at the Vancouver riots, sparked by nothing more than a hockey loss. The primary demographic there was middle class white youths, looting and pillaging just the same as anyone else... and I challenge you to tell me that Vancouver is an oppressive society.

That judge is a great example of one guy who got lucky and broke out of his class strata. These are the people that keep the "rags to riches" myth alive among the social elite. Cudos for him, but the reality is that the odds were in his favor and certain events in his life pointed in the right direction to achieve that social success.

The Vancouver riots were a result of drunken assholes rampaging through a city. They lasted a single night. The London riots are because of oppressive conditions (and much more violent than the Vancouver ones).
Added at: 20:04

Quotemander Prime said:
Whether a person is conscious of it at the time doesn't change what it is.

I don't remember defending anyone who loots. All I'm saying is that in the same situation, under those same conditions anyone would turn into a looter/vandal. My point is that we're all the same, and those that turn there nose to people who loot in these situations are in some serious self denial. Hell, even the example of the Vancouver riots is guilty of this. Anyone of you (and I) would do the same thing those drunks did in Vancouver if you were in their shoes.

Aug 9, 2011#129

Officer_Charon

Distinction duly noted.

And the WTO riots that occurred in Seattle? (not challenging for the sake of challenging - honestly interested in a counterpoint).

As a corollary, we had the G-8 conference here in Savannah back in '04. I think there was 1 lackluster protest during the entire convention.

Aug 9, 2011#130

AshburnerX

Officer_Charon said:
As a corollary, we had the G-8 conference here in Savannah back in '04. I think there was 1 lackluster protest during the entire convention.

That's likely because most Americans don't care about international politics beyond:

- Are we blowing something up?
- Are we getting blown up?
- Does this mean that {insert luxury item} is going to cost more now?
- Does this mean the price of gas will go down?

Aug 9, 2011#131

Mathias

Officer_Charon said:
Distinction duly noted.

And the WTO riots that occurred in Seattle? (not challenging for the sake of challenging - honestly interested in a counterpoint).

As a corollary, we had the G-8 conference here in Savannah back in '04. I think there was 1 lackluster protest during the entire convention.

I'm not trying to incite that all riots are due to oppression, just that this one is. I think as a general rule when you get a massive amount of angry people together, shit can go down pretty bad.

Aug 9, 2011#132

Tiq

Read my words carefully, because I swear to god, if I read one more comment about these "repressed" looters, I'm going to burst a blood vessel.

THESE RIOTS ARE NOT THE RESULT OF OPPRESSION.

Did you read that ok? Why don't you go back and have another look... I'll make some toast, while you mull it over.

Finished? Excellent...

On the first day this all went down.. maybe.. just MAYBE there was a point to be made. The UK is severely fucked at the moment... our leaders have been bleeding us for everything they can, when they get caught they say "Lol, it's legal, what you gonna do" One of our major newspapers just got caught out hacking the mobile phones of murder victims, so they could be the first source of information on the big hot scoop, and two of the most senior officers of the metropolitan police force resigned because it turned out they were accepting bribes to allow said phone hacking... HOWEVER!! (This is a big whatever)

Point 1: It's true the man who was shot and killed by the police, didn't shoot at the officers first... it's also true the man was a KNOWN GANG MEMBER, KNOWN DRUG DEALER AND HAPPENED TO BE CARRYING A GUN AT THE TIME. Just in case any of you crazy yanks dont know... guns are fucking illegal in the UK... I feel that point needs to be stressed a tad, here.

Point 2: Stop fucking going on about minortities being repressed, like a retarded parrot, when the media has openly interviewed many of the people instigating this looting and rioting, and all of them have given the same reasons for their actions "Setting fires is fun, stealing shit is awesome, and I'm here to start fights" this is not the voice of the fucking repressed here... this is the voice of spoiled little wankers on welfare, biting the hand that feeds them, because theyve grown up being handed everything while running around trying to pretend theyre fucking hard men... innocent peoples houses are being burned down... small businesses are being looted, destroyed and burned to the ground... innocent people are being attacked in the street and mugged... THESE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF ANYONE WITH A CAUSE OR A FUCKING CLUE. Stop feeling sorry for them, for the love of god.. peoples lives and careers are being put in jeapordy by all of this, and your busy feeling sorry for the fucking instigators because you think theyre "victims" Stop it.

Point 3: I'm not a fan of the metropolitan police force... theres a lot of shady bullshit that goes on with the met, but the fact of the matter is, they still have plenty of dedicated officers trying to do the right thing, they are in no way a big enough problem that CIVIL FUCKING DISORDER in the city is the only clear answer to make things right... if this was the case, people wouldnt be fucking cheering them on as they try to do their job right now CLEANING UP THIS SHITSTORM.

I'm going to stop now, because I'm in dire need of some smokes, and the garage is quite a bit of a walk away, but heres hoping I find some fucking sense written down here, when I get back, instead of shit talking nonsense from a few people who obviously haven't grown up in a city filled with the sort of self centred chavvy wankers currently tearing london apart for shits and giggles.

Aug 9, 2011#133

Shegokigo

Well put Tiq, and it's very good to hear from someone in the middle of the situation talking about it from experience and knowledge. I'm glad to hear you're still ok though, things have been pretty hairy over there.

Aug 9, 2011#134

Mathias

Aug 9, 2011#135

Tiq

I'm severely lucky at the moment shego... thankfully nothing huge has kicked off in glasgow yet, but the police have been covering the city centre all day today, and from what Im hearing only one small incident has occured with some assholes trying to start a fire in the middle of town, but it was dealt with quickly. Theres a lot of rumours and bullshit going around right now, that the little assholes are planning to riot, on friday but we'll just have to wait and see.

Aug 9, 2011#136

Philosopher B.

*Reads*

This sure is a thread! It's got posts and words and everything.

Aug 9, 2011#137

Mathias

I liked Tiq better before he became an angry dipshit.

HERE WE GO!

Aug 9, 2011#138

Biannoshufu

Mathias said:
I liked Tiq better before he became an angry dipshit.

HERE WE GO!

in utero?

what?

Aug 9, 2011#139

Shegokigo

Mathias said:
I liked Tiq better before he became an angry dipshit.

HERE WE GO!

Now you're being purposely contradictory. Tiq's points were solid, well founded, and meaningful from a first person perspective.

Aug 9, 2011#140

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
Now you're being purposely contradictory. Tiq's points were solid, well founded, and meaningful from a first person perspective.

Really? To me they sounded like angry spouted garbage that didn't comprehend the least bit of what I was saying. YOU FEEL SORRY FOR THE LOOTERS??!?!?!! DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!

My claims have nothing to do with feeling sorry for anyone. I'm just illustrating why shit went down like it did. Here I'll even spell it out in simple arithmetic so no one has to furrow their brow in confusion. Lower caste socioeconomic people + reason to get pissed off + large gathering of said people = shit going to hell with one spark. Happened during the LA riots and Katrina. The world economic system is what causes these uprisings in violence in these particular situations i.e. it sucks to be poor and uneducated.

It doesn't matter who the fuck it was the police shot to start the riots. Rodney King wasn't the most upstanding of all citizens either. The point is that it's the instigating event that sets off the snowball to roll down the hill.

Well founded and meaningful? No, it's just your typical Tiq Hurr Durr response to posts he half read and understood. My posts were simply backing up Charlie because he's 100% correct in this case.

I did, however, like how his comments about media interviews reflect exactly what I pointed out a few posts earlier. Nothing gets ratings up like showing a bunch of violent black people doing what scares white people best.

Aug 9, 2011#141

Shegokigo

I'm about 99% sure he wasn't directing that post at you.... as for Charlie being 100% right? I'd say he was about 20% right (the stuff you agreed with) and 80% Wharrgarbl.

Aug 9, 2011#142

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
I'm about 99% sure he wasn't directing that post at you.... as for Charlie being 100% right? I'd say he was about 20% right (the stuff you agreed with) and 80% Wharrgarbl.

Well, yeah, just the economics stuff. The AAA credit rating crap is kinda stupid. That's a whole nother can of worms.

Aug 9, 2011#143

Tiq

Mathias, did I shit in your cereal or something, brudda? I've spent almost all day today, arguing with wankers from glasgow who I know personally, who are sympathizing with the "plight and movement" of thugs who have quite openly admitted there is no rhyme or reason for what theyre doing. You seem to have taken a post that I wrote targetted towards anyone who may be misguidedly feeling sorry for these little assholes, as a very personal attack on your opinion, and that really wasn't the case.

I appreciate the insults on my intellectual capacity, btw... you classy bastard.

Aug 9, 2011#144

Biannoshufu

Ah yes. the UK, home of Shitty-O's Cereal.

Aug 9, 2011#145

Officer_Charon

Missed you, Amy

Aug 10, 2011#146

@Li3n

Frankie Williamson said:
You're right, most people just stay lazy and poor.

And you should thank them for not giving you any competition...

Aug 10, 2011#147

Tiq

Oooooh, hang on, mathias is chaz? Fuck that explains a lot... nevermind my previous comment, I've already wasted enough time watching people play "Put up with the annoying fuckwit troll, who ruins the forum" not going to waste my time justifiying anything to that asshole.

Aug 10, 2011#148

@Li3n

Tiq said:
Oooooh, hang on, mathias is chaz?

I think he's just a clone or something...

Aug 10, 2011#149

DarkAudit

I'll just leave this here.

No comment from me one way or the other, as I'm busy with work at present.

Aug 10, 2011#150

Chibibar

Mathias, I have to disagree with you about "rags to riches doesn't work in the U.S." it does work IF you work hard at it and being resourceful. It is NOT going to drop on your lap. it is not going to happen overnight (like I said, my parents took 25 years to get where they are now).

The problem is that people are lazy. Heck, I'm lazy when I don't HAVE to do anything, but if I get my butt in gear, I can have a better body, better shape, eat healthier, get a better job (higher pay) but you know what? that takes WORK! and it is not easy. It is a gamble. Sometimes I have to find many different job just to get ahead (like my friend) but is it worth it? to some, it is and thus you see stories from rags to riches, but some just keep on trucking in their own lives and make the best of it.

I know in education (at least in Texas) there are SOOOOOO many programs helping people to get an education in community college level. We even have job programs and such to help people get ahead. We have the information, we have the resources but the prospective student have to get up their collective ass to make it happen. They have to apply, they have to do the work, they have to pass the course and get their degree.

It is out there. I remember when working on a volunteer program (teaching computer to low income people and help them with basic PC for their job) that there are lots and lots of program out there. The trick is to find them and apply for them, again, that is work. You (the general you) have to get out and make sacrifices to make it happen.

That is why you don't see millions of people getting "rich" cause it is HARD.

Aug 10, 2011#151

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Well I am a minority here that challenges the status quo

Bitch, please.

Aug 10, 2011#152

strawman

Chibibar said:
Mathias, I have to disagree with you about "rags to riches doesn't work in the U.S."

I don't think he was saying that rags to riches doesn't work. I think he was saying that you rise to the level of your social class and upbringing, and a in lot of "rags to riches" stories people aren't changing classes - they were raised by intelligent, well schooled middle class people in a bad spot, and due to their education and upbringing they knew the way out and took it.

Not having been raised by high school dropouts and mentored by gang bangers, I can't imagine not being able to dig myself out of a bad situation.

However there is a ton of learning that goes on before age 15 that embeds, deeply, certain patterns of living, and there is some social theories that indicate that human beings, raised in a bad situation by people who can't give them the tools they need to get out of it, will never be able to climb out no matter what they learn after they're 15. Yes, there are outliers, and a great mentor can take one person every year or so and try to reverse those broken patterns, but this is not something that can be taught for an hour a day in a classroom with a reasonable expectation of change.

"Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" is only, in theory, possible for those that already have those patterns programmed into them. It's not an issue of being lazy - although perhaps they were programmed with patterns of laziness instead - it's an issue of brain wiring. They cannot grasp the thing that is in front of them because they cannot see it, no matter how you point it out. It is not something their brain can work out. And it's not because they are stupid or unintelligent - it's because that's how their brains were wired when they were children.

Brain patterns that are set easily as a child are very, very hard to change as an adult.

I disagree with his assertion that everyone would loot if they were in a given place at the time of looting - I know I'd be spending time figuring out a way to protect my family, then my property. Who cares about a new TV when there's a mob on the streets? My preservation instincts are a bit stronger than my consumption instincts.

But regarding the social class structure - human nature being what it is, it is very difficult for someone to change classes.

However, the idea that classes are imposed by the governement is not strictly true, and society is only partially responsible for the class divisions.

If you replaced every bad parent with a good parent with the same financial resources and means, you could NOT keep the next generation "in their class". They would climb out of whatever hole you built.

It has more to do with upbringing that anything about society and "the man" oppressing the lower class. Unfortunately it's a circular, vicious cycle, and while society and government do their part in making it easy to stay in place, they aren't forcing anyone to stay there more than their own parents are.

Aug 10, 2011#153

strawman

I should clarify that when I say "you could NOT keep the next generation "in their class"" I'm thinking of the US, and most or Europe (including the UK). There are still caste systems in some countries which are socially enforced, and lower class members can only move upward via lies, or a very few acceptable mechanisms, and simply getting the right teachings and upbringing wouldn't necessarily enable them to leave a bad situation.

Aug 10, 2011#154

Chibibar

stienman said:
I don't think he was saying that rags to riches doesn't work. I think he was saying that you rise to the level of your social class and upbringing, and a in lot of "rags to riches" stories people aren't changing classes - they were raised by intelligent, well schooled middle class people in a bad spot, and due to their education and upbringing they knew the way out and took it.

Not having been raised by high school dropouts and mentored by gang bangers, I can't imagine not being able to dig myself out of a bad situation.

However there is a ton of learning that goes on before age 15 that embeds, deeply, certain patterns of living, and there is some social theories that indicate that human beings, raised in a bad situation by people who can't give them the tools they need to get out of it, will never be able to climb out no matter what they learn after they're 15. Yes, there are outliers, and a great mentor can take one person every year or so and try to reverse those broken patterns, but this is not something that can be taught for an hour a day in a classroom with a reasonable expectation of change.

"Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" is only, in theory, possible for those that already have those patterns programmed into them. It's not an issue of being lazy - although perhaps they were programmed with patterns of laziness instead - it's an issue of brain wiring. They cannot grasp the thing that is in front of them because they cannot see it, no matter how you point it out. It is not something their brain can work out. And it's not because they are stupid or unintelligent - it's because that's how their brains were wired when they were children.

Brain patterns that are set easily as a child are very, very hard to change as an adult.

I disagree with his assertion that everyone would loot if they were in a given place at the time of looting - I know I'd be spending time figuring out a way to protect my family, then my property. Who cares about a new TV when there's a mob on the streets? My preservation instincts are a bit stronger than my consumption instincts.

But regarding the social class structure - human nature being what it is, it is very difficult for someone to change classes.

However, the idea that classes are imposed by the governement is not strictly true, and society is only partially responsible for the class divisions.

If you replaced every bad parent with a good parent with the same financial resources and means, you could NOT keep the next generation "in their class". They would climb out of whatever hole you built.

It has more to do with upbringing that anything about society and "the man" oppressing the lower class. Unfortunately it's a circular, vicious cycle, and while society and government do their part in making it easy to stay in place, they aren't forcing anyone to stay there more than their own parents are.

I can see that. I wonder what would have happen if I didn't come to the U.S. at age 12.

before then, I was raise in a harsh environment (physical, mental, and sexual abuse in Thailand) but I came to the states. I was angry with the world, but did met good people along the way and made me a better person.

I do believe there is merit to your statement.

Aug 10, 2011#155

sixpackshaker

Adammon said:
The last riot in Texas was 1943. Want to know why?

Because you'll get fucking shot if you try to break into someone else's property. Makes sense, no?

Houston had riots in the 70's or 80's I was a little to young to remember.

Aug 11, 2011#156

Jay

Aug 11, 2011#157

Shegokigo

I like that your looter is white Jay. Nice touch.

Aug 11, 2011#158

DarkAudit

In before another Charlie post...

Aug 11, 2011#159

@Li3n

Shegokigo said:
I like that your looter is white Jay. Nice touch.

Yeah, that's totally offensive... i mean looting is a multicultural affair:

Aug 11, 2011#160

Azurephoenix

Man, I wish I hadn't watched that... people suck.

Aug 11, 2011#161

Espy

That video... makes me sad.

Aug 11, 2011#162

Jay

Aug 11, 2011#163

Jay

Aug 11, 2011#164

Espy

That little girl in the bottom left looks so freaking happy to have her... yellow tube?

Aug 11, 2011#165

Shakey

I was on the phone with a customer and just about busted out laughing when I saw her.

It looks like one of those sherbert tubes.

Aug 11, 2011#166

Espy

Seriously, she's the funniest damn thing I've seen in a while.

Aug 11, 2011#167

Shegokigo

Its actually a photobomb shop meme but damn was it well used!

Aug 11, 2011#168

GasBandit

Aug 11, 2011#169

@Li3n

Pick your favourite: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149

I'll take this:

"But it's not just about the underclass - it's about politicians, it's about bankers, it's about footballers.
"It's not just about a particular class, it permeates all levels of society. When we see politicians claiming for flat-screen TVs and getting jailed for fiddling their expenses, it's clear that young people of all classes aren't being given appropriate leadership."

Aug 11, 2011#170

Null

Everywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
Cause summers here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's just no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well, then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! said my name is called disturbance
I'll shout and scream, I'll kill the king, I'll rail at all his servants
Well, what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No

Aug 11, 2011#171

North_Ranger

@Li3n said:
Yeah, that's totally offensive... i mean looting is a multicultural affair:

That's fucking disgusting... I'm sorry but after seeing that bit I have nothing but contempt left for the rioters. It's one thing to protest peacefully, another to rob and vandalize discriminately, but stories like this just make me want to vomit for humanity.

Aug 11, 2011#172

blotsfan

Eh, if the kid was rioting and looting too then I think he deserved it.

Aug 11, 2011#173

Null

blotsfan said:
Eh, if the kid was rioting and looting too then I think he deserved it.

He wasn't. He was on the street and got the shit kicked out of him, because that's what happens to innocent bystanders in a riot.

Aug 11, 2011#174

blotsfan

Oh ok. Then fuck those guys.

Aug 11, 2011#175

Shegokigo

Null said:
He wasn't. He was on the street and got the shit kicked out of him, because that's what happens to innocent bystanders in a riot.

But it's ok, they're racially oppressed and this is how they get back at the Government/System.

Aug 11, 2011#176

Jay

Aug 11, 2011#177

Shegokigo

Don't ever stop posting. Ever.

Aug 11, 2011#178

Hailey Knight

Remember when the Jews were oppressed and their youth got mad about a German shooting a Jewish kid, so the Jews tore the shit out of Europe?

Aug 11, 2011#179

SpecialKO

Quotemander Prime said:
Remember when the Jews were oppressed and their youth got mad about a German shooting a Jewish kid, so the Jews in American uniforms and their friends tore the shit out of ~~Europe~~ the murdering Nazi bastards?

FTFY.

Aug 11, 2011#180

blotsfan

I thought its ok to oppress jews since we're (generally) white?

Aug 12, 2011#181

@Li3n

Quotemander Prime said:
Remember when the Jews were oppressed and their youth got mad about a German shooting a Jewish kid, so the Jews tore the shit out of Europe?

Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

Aug 12, 2011#182

Jax

Man (68) dies after attack by rioters - he was trying to put out a fire
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14500869

So tell me again how killing innocent people is helping to rebel against the government?

Aug 12, 2011#183

Krisken

Jax said:
So tell me again how killing innocent people is helping to rebel against the government?

Did someone say it did? I need to go back through this thread!

Aug 12, 2011#184

AshburnerX

This has been going on for 5 days now... if these guys really wanted to make a statement, they'd have burned down Parliament by now.

Aug 12, 2011#185

@Li3n

A man has been arrested over an attack on a Malaysian student who was mugged by apparent Good Samaritans after rioters attacked him in east London.

Police said the suspect, believed to be in his 20s, was being held on suspicion of robbery in connection with the incident in Barking on Monday night.

Speaking at a press conference after the operation, Mr Haziq said he had no ill-feeling about what had happened and wanted to stay in Britain to complete his studies.

Jax said:
So tell me again how killing innocent people is helping to rebel against the government?

Same way it's helping fight terrorism?

Aug 12, 2011#186

Jax

Krisken said:
Did someone say it did? I need to go back through this thread!

Not explicitly, but the sentiment of some people here is the same with the argument some of the rioters themselves use:
"We're have it so bad, but the government does nothing to help us. We protest, but no one listens. We riot, and we get front page news."

Of course this is just an excuse from the criminals, the real protesters (if they're wise) will have pulled out of the whole rioting thing. Nonetheless, the rioting and looting assholes keep using the 'social unrest/oppression' as an excuse to do just about anything, including attacking people that try to protect their neighbourhood.

Aug 12, 2011#187

@Li3n

Since when did Russell Brand start making so much sense: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron

An Open Letter to David Cameron’s Parents: http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/

@Jax

Yeah, because real revolutions are totally fair and with no innocent victims... and angry mobs are totally rational.

Aug 12, 2011#188

Tress

@Li3n said:
@Jax

Yeah, because real revolutions are totally fair and with no innocent victims... and angry mobs are totally rational.

What the fuck? So this is a revolution now, is it?

Aug 12, 2011#189

North_Ranger

Tress said:
What the fuck? So this is a revolution now, is it?

Not enough bare-breasted women and halberds, if you ask me.

Aug 12, 2011#190

Tress

North_Ranger said:
Not enough bare-breasted women and halberds, if you ask me.

This man speaks the truth.

Aug 12, 2011#191

@Li3n

Tress said:
What the fuck? So this is a revolution now, is it?

A revolution in acquiring stuff en mass.

Also, hyperbole... the one thing i liked about literature in school... you should try it, it feels good.

Aug 12, 2011#192

Math242

Yeah, i wonder how UK would react if they faced a full fledged revolution similar to what happened in some arab countries.

Aug 12, 2011#193

@Li3n

Considering they're already talking about making laws that allow them to shut down social media sites in cases like this i'd say pretty much the same, but with less guns involved...

Aug 12, 2011#194

Grytpipe-Thynne

Math242 said:
Yeah, i wonder how UK would react if they faced a full fledged revolution similar to what happened in some arab countries.

Unlikely as we change our idiots in charge every few years, but I would join a revolution that resulted in a government that paid more attention to the people who voted them in, and looked after the UK, rather than fighting pointless wars that can not be won, or squandering billions in countries where it is creamed off by the rulers and very little does actual good.

Aug 12, 2011#195

Krisken

Boy, does that feel familiar.

Aug 12, 2011#196

DarkAudit

Grytpipe-Thynne said:
Unlikely as we change our idiots in charge every few years, but I would join a revolution that resulted in a government that paid more attention to the people who voted them in, and looked after the UK, rather than fighting pointless wars that can not be won, or squandering billions in countries where it is creamed off by the rulers and very little does actual good.

There as well as here, the only thing that changes is the payee's name on the cheques.

Aug 12, 2011#197

TommiR

Jax said:
Not explicitly, but the sentiment of some people here is the same with the argument some of the rioters themselves use:
"We're have it so bad, but the government does nothing to help us. We protest, but no one listens. We riot, and we get front page news."

Of course this is just an excuse from the criminals, the real protesters (if they're wise) will have pulled out of the whole rioting thing. Nonetheless, the rioting and looting assholes keep using the 'social unrest/oppression' as an excuse to do just about anything, including attacking people that try to protect their neighbourhood.

As you implied, the scum tends to rise to the top in situations like these. When things go to hell and law and order breaks down, the dregs of society crawl out from under their rocks and take advantage. Seen likely in pretty much every riot, revolution, and other such societal upheaval in history.

I'm pretty sure no-one here is saying what we're seeing is in any way justified. I personally took the 'social problems' comments as some insight on a part of the reason for the riots beginning in the first place. The widespread lootings, muggings et al. that followed in London was something of a natural progression when the authorities didn't manage to gain control of the situation soon enough, I think.

Aug 12, 2011#198

GasBandit

See, now THIS is how you troll.

Anyway, I'd be more likely to believe this was valid (but violent) protest if the main targets of destruction were government buildings and institutions. Police stations, government buildings, parliament, etc... but all they're doing is grabbing the most stuff from the most helpless and dragging it home.

Aug 12, 2011#199

TommiR

North_Ranger said:
That's fucking disgusting... I'm sorry but after seeing that bit I have nothing but contempt left for the rioters. It's one thing to protest peacefully, another to rob and vandalize discriminately, but stories like this just make me want to vomit for humanity.

It was a pretty disgusting thing to watch, of course. But despair not, my friend, and remember that there have also been some selfless and upstanding acts during these dark times in London, such as the neighbourhood watches and people intervening and helping out victims. I guess these kinds of situations bring out both the worst and the best in human nature.

GasBandit said:
Anyway, I'd be more likely to believe this was valid (but violent) protest if the main targets of destruction were government buildings and institutions. Police stations, government buildings, parliament, etc... but all they're doing is grabbing the most stuff from the most helpless and dragging it home.

I don't know, I'm a bit on the side which thinks that when things progress to the level of a riot (meaning violence breaks out), it stops being a valid protest, no matter the actual reasons or background behind it.

Aug 12, 2011#200

GasBandit

TommiR said:
I don't know, I'm a bit on the side which thinks that when things progress to the level of a riot (meaning violence breaks out), it stops being a valid protest, no matter the actual reasons or background behind it.

There does come a time when violence is the only option. That's what a revolution is.

This is not revolution, however. This is just opportunistic looting on a thin pretense.

Aug 12, 2011#201

Jay

Aug 12, 2011#202

Covar

Jay that is so awesome, I unliked your post so I could like it twice.

Aug 12, 2011#203

TommiR

GasBandit said:
There does come a time when violence is the only option. That's what a revolution is.

I admit there does exist a slight dilemma in that, as you could say for instance that the current events in Libya wouldn't have amounted to much without the people being ready to resort to some violence. As a theoretical exercise, off the top of my hat, I'd list a few criteria to determine what the difference might be:

1. numbers
2. unity of purpose
3. public support

These guys in London seem to lack at least one and three, so they are little more than a disturbance to be brought to order by the authorities. The libyans had all three (the main purpose being to get rid of Gaddafi), so they are a revolution/rebellion.

Still, being priviledged enough to have been born in a safe, modern western society, I personally feel violence is never the most correct way to solve intra-society conflict. It's more of a weapon of last resort.

Aug 12, 2011#204

Adammon

Soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box - in that order preferably.

Aug 12, 2011#205

TommiR

And with progressively greater thresholds between the steps, I would hope.

Aug 12, 2011#206

Chibibar

you know, my wife and I talk about it after reading this thread. How far would most of us go?
If it is a general riot, I personally wouldn't loot and try to help people.
If law and order is gone (i.e. world catastrophe or government breakdown/non-exist) - I would only loot and steal (mainly food and clothing) for survival and MAY kill only in self defense.

not to say I am NOT tempted (it is tempting) but I wouldn't feel right.
I have steal before when I was a kid in Thailand (and got caught once) but it was survival since my sister and I were starving.

Aug 12, 2011#207

Krisken

Aug 12, 2011#208

GasBandit

Added at: 14:22

Aug 12, 2011#209

Jay

Aug 12, 2011#210

GasBandit

I saw that last one with a caption of "COME ALONG LITTLE PONY, THIS IS NO PLACE FOR YOU"

Aug 12, 2011#211

Officer_Charon

One does not simply pony-ride into Mordor...

Aug 12, 2011#212

SpecialKO

Anyone else starting to wonder if this is an elaborately staged show set up to win every photoshop contest ever held for the rest of time?

Aug 12, 2011#213

Officer_Charon

You mean.... Jay instigated the riots?

Aug 12, 2011#214

Shegokigo

Yeah, that's it! It was totally Jay! :whistling:

Yep. That's right. Jay.

Aug 12, 2011#215

Officer_Charon

I shudder to think of the carnage if Jay and Shego ever meet in real life.... y'all stay away from my town!

Aug 12, 2011#216

Jay

mmmmm

Aug 12, 2011#217

sixpackshaker

I have a feeling this is going to be like Watts back in '68. Where the rioters burned and looted their corner of the town. Then it took 30+ years for anyone to give a shit enough about the neighborhood to start building businesses back into Watts.

Still in many areas around Watts people have to take the bus for many miles to find a grocery store.

Aug 12, 2011#218

CrimsonSoul

If me and shego ever met I'd give her sausage and a dildo as a joke

Aug 12, 2011#219

sixpackshaker

CrimsonSoul said:
If me and shego ever met I'd give her sausage and a dildo as a joke

And she would use them on you for shits and giggles.

Aug 12, 2011#220

CrimsonSoul

Cool with me

Aug 13, 2011#221

@Li3n

Oh boy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517

Aug 13, 2011#222

Shegokigo

Can't wait. :popcorn:

Aug 13, 2011#223

AshburnerX

Wow. That's kinda fucked up.

Aug 13, 2011#224

CrimsonSoul

Shegokigo said:
Can't wait.

You only live like 6 hours away if your still in Harlingen. We should meet up in corpus one day so I can give you my sausage!

Aug 13, 2011#225

strawman

WHY IS NO ONE POSTING RIOT/MY LITTLE PONY CROSSOVER IMAGES?

I mean, I'd totally watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Violence.

Aug 13, 2011#226

Shegokigo

CrimsonSoul said:
You only live like 6 hours away if your still in Harlingen. We should meet up in corpus one day so I can give you my sausage!

I was referring to the reaction to the white's becoming black, but you seem excited to be assaulted with that sausage.

Aug 13, 2011#227

CrimsonSoul

Shegokigo said:
I was referring to the reaction to the white's becoming black, but you seem excited to be assaulted with that sausage.

brown chicken brown cow!

Aug 13, 2011#228

North_Ranger

CrimsonSoul said:
brown chicken brown cow!

It was nice knowing you.

*runs like hell*

Aug 13, 2011#229

Biannoshufu

the crap deal for those of us here in the states is that the extremist groups will use their misunderstood view of the UK political system, juxtaposed a'la Fox News/MSNBC style during the election campaign advertising season. The right will say "see what happens to a country without gun rights? This is the LOLbama socialism of the future!" and the left will say "This is what the Tea Partiers align themselves with!" through a convoluted ~~Maddow~~-Matthews-esque gymnastics maneuver. And the whole damn thing becomes yet another political sideshow, derailing attention from real issues many countries face.

Aug 13, 2011#230

CrimsonSoul

I am a strong proponent of gun rights

Aug 13, 2011#231

Krisken

Maddow-esque gymnastics? Does that involve cocktails and short hair cuts?
Added at: 15:00

CrimsonSoul said:
I am a strong proponent of gun rights

I am a strong proponent of responsible gun rights.

Aug 13, 2011#232

Biannoshufu

Krisken said:
Maddow-esque gymnastics? Does that involve cocktails and short hair cuts?

My bad, I transposed/mistyped Mathhews with Maddow because I was listening to Rachel's podcast.

See also: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-december-1-2008/msnbc-replaces-fox-news

Aug 13, 2011#233

CrimsonSoul

Krisken said:
Maddow-esque gymnastics? Does that involve cocktails and short hair cuts?
Added at: 15:00

I am a strong proponent of responsible gun rights.

Define responsible and I may agree with you

Aug 13, 2011#234

Krisken

CrimsonSoul said:
Define responsible and I may agree with you

The difference between supporting responsible gun ownership (I do live in WI, you know) such as for hunting or sport vs. supporting allowing guns to be carried into stadiums and requiring citizens to own a gun. The 'slippery slope' thought process on restricting things like extended clips and gun show sellers who sell weapons and not follow federal laws doesn't really fly with me. People who oppose gun show sale restrictions, want the extended clips for hand guns, and oppose restricting the mentally handicapped or ill from owning deadly weapons scare the shit out of me.

You want weapons that are dangerous? That's fine, so long as you show you are responsible and adult enough to handle that responsibility.

Aug 13, 2011#235

AshburnerX

What is the big deal with mods? Most of them are expensive as hell, many require advanced gun smithing skills, and even then half of them don't work half the time unless you know the parts intimately enough to maintain them. Besides, it doesn't tackle the fact that a criminal is going to be able to get the stuff anyway, as they don't exactly have to worry about buying from a legitimate source.

Seriously... you show me a guy who wants to use a Beta C mag on his gun during a crime and I'll show you a guy who doesn't care if his gun jams, how much more it weighs, if anyone spots it before they pull it, spending $250 per a mag, or getting an extra 5-10 tacked onto his sentence just for using the gun.

I'm totally with you on the selling restrictions for mentally handicapped/ill and closing the gun show loopholes though.

Aug 13, 2011#236

Officer_Charon

Indeed... it's been my experience that the handgun of choice for dirties in a Hi-point .380, so obviously they don't care about quality...

Aug 13, 2011#237

AshburnerX

Officer_Charon said:
Indeed... it's been my experience that the handgun of choice for dirties in a Hi-point .380, so obviously they don't care about quality...

In the world of criminals, the best gun for the job is always "whatever I can get my hands on".

Aug 13, 2011#238

Officer_Charon

That's why they fire it sideways... because that's how it came out of the box.

Aug 13, 2011#239

strawman

Officer_Charon said:
That's why they fire it sideways... because that's how it came out of the box.

I always make sure to buy upright guns. I've had a few shops try to sneak a sideways model past me by setting the box on its edge, but I'm wise to their tricks.

:cool:

Aug 13, 2011#240

Shegokigo

Officer_Charon said:
That's why they fire it sideways... because that's how it came out of the box.

No, because it's a killshot. Obviously.

Aug 13, 2011#241

CrimsonSoul

I carry a RIO 1911 cs with hornaday self defense hollow points. I usually don't carry a spare mag unless I wear my khaki pants though because they have all the extra pockets and the spare mag holder I have is uncomfortable to wear. but I would always CC my 1911 in my IWB holsters and carry my 40 in a pocket holster along with the spare mags for both if I really felt paranoid, but I don't.

Also, congrats Wi for finally passing a CC law (even though OC is perfectly legal there) I can't wait till I can legally CC in Wi when I'm there visiting wifes side of the family, come on Nov. 1st!
Added at: 19:22
I'm also for closing the gun show loophole if they do it the right way and make transferring a firearm between family members legal without the NIC BS that I don't even have to go through because I hold a CHL so none of it really applies to me except filling out the paperwork without my social on it and watch them not have to call that number that's pointless because a lot of states don't even update it correctly so even people that should be on the list aren't because states putting mental people on the list is voluntary. I'm ranting, it's a hot button topic for me, sorry

Aug 13, 2011#242

Frankie Williamson

CrimsonSoul said:
I carry a RIO 1911 cs with hornaday self defense hollow points. I usually don't carry a spare mag unless I wear my khaki pants though because they have all the extra pockets and the spare mag holder I have is uncomfortable to wear. but I would always CC my 1911 in my IWB holsters and carry my 40 in a pocket holster along with the spare mags for both if I really felt paranoid, but I don't.

Also, congrats Wi for finally passing a CC law (even though OC is perfectly legal there) I can't wait till I can legally CC in Wi when I'm there visiting wifes side of the family, come on Nov. 1st!

....Jesus Christ.

Aug 13, 2011#243

Charlie Don't Surf

Guns are terrifying and I would be more comfortable if as few people around me carried them as possible

Aug 13, 2011#244

Officer_Charon

Whiiiich brings us back to our original topic

Aug 13, 2011#245

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Guns are terrifying and I would be more comfortable if as few people around me carried them as possible

Wow.

Aug 13, 2011#246

Krisken

Those extended clips aren't mods, Ash. They are manufacturers who make them that way. The big deal is that an enthusiast really has no problem reloading at the firing range, so what is the point of 30+ bullets in a magazine other than 'kill as much as possible before reloading'?

As I said, I'm not anti-gun. I just find very few people responsible enough to carry the things in public settings.

Aug 13, 2011#247

strawman

I don't mean to be insulting, it's just a perspective I cannot grasp. Guns are not inherently dangerous. It's not like saying, "Unstable dynamite is terrifying and I wish fewer people carried it" - in which case I'd agree with you.

Cars are similar to guns in terms of deadliness, but I don't expect you to say the same thing about cars.

What your statement tells me is, "Humans are terrifying and I would be more comfortable if as few of them were around me as possible."

But I am not you. While I don't own any guns, they are merely tools. The difference between a gun an my pocket knife is that while I can use my pocket knive for a variety of tasks during the day, the only task a gun is good for is killing another human being, or threatening to do so.

If you hang out with humans that are likely to want to threaten to kill you, or kill you, then yes - restricting guns makes sense. I don't run across those sort of humans often, though, so I can't quite grasp the significance of your statement.

I have been robbed at gunpoint before, but the funny thing is that it was two guys, and they were both larger than me - they didn't need the gun at all. So restricting gun access in that situation wouldn't have helped (notably, even if I had a gun I couldn't have reacted with it in a meaningful way either, so having access to guns wouldn't necessarily have made the situation better).

But then I'm a tool guy. Everything is a tool, and guns are no different. In the wrong hands a lot of mundane tools you might not be afraid of are just as deadly, and possibly more, than a handgun.

Aug 13, 2011#248

Krisken

I don't think I can be more succinct in my view without repeating myself, so I'm not sure what to say beyond what I already have. I'm certainly not of Charlie's position, but I find the NRA carry guns in public to be more than a little stupid. History shows us why guns became restricted in dense public settings- people were dying and law enforcement was unable to curb it without it.

Last thing I want is The Wild West, Wisconsin edition.

" Cars are similar to guns in terms of deadliness, but I don't expect you to say the same thing about cars."

That is a false equivalency, stienman. A car is designed for transportation. A gun is designed for... what?

Aug 13, 2011#249

SpecialKO

stienman said:
Cars are similar to guns in terms of deadliness, but I don't expect you to say the same thing about cars.

I live in NJ. I think this about cars every time I get on the turnpike.

I'd feel so much safer if I were the only one who.....hmmmmmmm.

Aug 13, 2011#250

AshburnerX

Krisken said:
Those extended clips aren't mods, Ash. They are manufacturers who make them that way. The big deal is that an enthusiast really has no problem reloading at the firing range, so what is the point of 30+ bullets in a magazine other than 'kill as much as possible before reloading'?

Actually, they ARE mods. Your adding non-standard equipment to your weapon, so it's a mod by definition. It's really no different than attaching a laser sight or a scope, except that you need to be able to remove a magazine quickly. Also, some weapons can't accept expanded magazines right out of the box... sometimes you need to change other parts to make them fit correctly.

As for why they have them... the thrill of being able to fire a lot of bullets in a short amount of time? Seriously, 90% of people who have these things are just hobbyists that are out for a good time. It's actually pretty rare for these things to be used outside of the range, mainly because they cost so god damn much. Most of the ones that do end up on the streets are stolen or bought by drug cartels outside the country.

Aug 13, 2011#251

Krisken

Tell it to

Aug 13, 2011#252

AshburnerX

Krisken said:
Tell it to

And here we get to the heart of the matter: Your uncomfortable with one person misusing a firearm, despite the hundreds of thousands of responsible users and sellers who use their firearms every day, sometimes in defense of themselves and others. You never hear about those people because only blood gets headlines.

You and I are already in agreement that people like this shouldn't have access to weapons to begin with, that there should be more through screening and that the gun show loopholes should be closed. But by bringing up a high profile event, you've basically proven my point for me: That its exceedingly rare for such modified weapons to be used criminally... because if they weren't, you'd hear about it all the time. It would be on the news every night.

Aug 13, 2011#253

Charlie Don't Surf

Guns do zero positive things. They only kill people.

Aug 13, 2011#254

Krisken

I don't think we're getting anywhere. Y'all can have your guns whenever. I give up.
Added at: 21:51
Shut up, Charlie. Stop trolling already.

Aug 13, 2011#255

CrimsonSoul

I'm not sure if you think the "wild west" is a good or a bad thing if you think it's bad the argument doesn't hold much water as in the wild west the gun death rate was something like 5 people a year. And having a handgun in public is already legal in Wisconsin the only thing they are changing is now you can carry concealed with a license (or unconcealed without a license) so it doesn't change much of anything

Aug 13, 2011#256

Krisken

I already gave up. No one read what I wrote to begin with, so what is the point?

Here, let me make it exceedingly simple.

1. I support gun rights. Guns have their place in society.
2. I support responsible gun ownership. Most people follow this too. They have gun locks, keep their guns in cabinets, and don't feel the need to wave their gun around 'just because they can' (this is something important to me. If you have to carry a gun 'because you can', you're a fucking idiot).
3. Some restrictions are fine. Semi and fully automatic weapons being used outside of gun ranges makes no sense.
4. You don't need a hand gun clip that holds 31+ bullets. No, 'getting a thrill out of shooting 30+ bullets' is not an acceptable reason to have it. Reload more you lazy fuck.
5. Conceal and Carry in WI is very reasonable. The requirements mean you are serious about gun safety and will take the necessary steps to not be an idiot.

That's pretty much it. Did I miss anything?

Aug 13, 2011#257

strawman

Krisken, I pretty much agree with you. I was merely responding to Charlie's unease with projectile weapons.

Aug 13, 2011#258

Krisken

AshburnerX said:
You seem to do this any time someone disagrees with you. "People are disagreeing with me, so they must not be listening to me. Clearly my position is the only valid one!"

I really have no response for this.

Aug 13, 2011#259

AshburnerX

Krisken said:
I really have no response for this.

Which is why I deleted it. It felt inappropriate the moment I hit send.

Aug 13, 2011#260

CrimsonSoul

Just nitpicking here krisken but if you don't want people to have semi or full auto weapons off of a gun range what kind do you think should be allowed off?

Aug 13, 2011#261

Shegokigo

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Guns do zero positive things. They only kill people.

And that's positive! You invalidated your own point! :twisted:

or wait, is it positive to kill someone if you're racially/governmentally oppressed and in a riot? I think that was your point in the other thread wasn't it?

Aug 13, 2011#262

Krisken

CrimsonSoul said:
Just nitpicking here krisken but if you don't want people to have semi or full auto weapons off of a gun range what kind do you think should be allowed off?

I believe hand guns are better at home defense than the weapons you listed, which are exceedingly dangerous in those situations. Obviously shotguns and rifles are hunting firearms.

I guess I'd ask, what situation do you feel semi-automatic and automatic weapons would warrant besides a gun range?

Aug 13, 2011#263

Bones

I tend to believe restrictive gun laws are only effective after the fact. but I don't know. it seems criminals will get a hold of guns in any case.

Aug 13, 2011#264

Shegokigo

Gun laws don't stop criminals from getting weapons. It stops people who are emotionally charged from being able to grab a gun during their "moment" and do something they wouldn't do after having time to think it through.

As Bones said, it's not stopping Gun criminals.

Aug 13, 2011#265

AshburnerX

Krisken said:
I believe hand guns are better at home defense than the weapons you listed, which are exceedingly dangerous in those situations. Obviously shotguns and rifles are hunting firearms.

Actually, you'd want to use a shotgun for home defense. Buckshot gets terrible penetration, so your less likely to shoot through the wall and hit someone you didn't intend. Plus the pumping sound is a great psychological deterrent.

As they say, the best weapon is one you never have to use.

Aug 13, 2011#266

Krisken

Shegokigo said:
Gun laws don't stop criminals from getting weapons. It stops people who are emotionally charged from being able to grab a gun during their "moment" and do something they wouldn't do after having time to think it through.

As Bones said, it's not stopping Gun criminals.

And that is perfectly reasonable. I am totally for giving people a cool off time to think things through.

Aug 13, 2011#267

AshburnerX

I gotta agree. If your still mad enough to kill someone after the waiting period, then you were probably going to do it regardless.

Aug 13, 2011#268

Bones

Shegokigo said:
Gun laws don't stop criminals from getting weapons. It stops people who are emotionally charged from being able to grab a gun during their "moment" and do something they wouldn't do after having time to think it through.

As Bones said, it's not stopping Gun criminals.

yeah I didn't mean the waiting period, I meant exotic mods and powerful anti-personal weapon stuff.

Aug 13, 2011#269

Shegokigo

Exotic mods and anti-personal stuff is meant for law enforcement. You don't need either unless you're on safari.

Aug 13, 2011#270

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Guns do zero positive things. They only kill people.

I would argue that sport hunting doesn't involve shooting people and isn't a negative thing. Hence, one positive thing you can do with a rifle: help control the rampant deer population in many areas due to lacking apex predators.

Aug 13, 2011#271

Shegokigo

NO MATHIAS. THEY DO ZERO POSITIVE THINGS! LISTEN YOU NEANDERTHAL!

Aug 13, 2011#272

Mathias

A parent taking their kid to a camping/hunting trip. Parental bonding. Positive thing #2
Added at: 00:19
Sport shooting, clay shooting. Fun hobby for an overstressed workaholic. Positive thing #3.
Added at: 00:20
Using a handgun to open your beer can. +1 Positive.

I'm all for handgun and rifle ownership. It's assault weapons that I start to get a little sketchy on. As far as protection goes, I don't believe you can get anything more out of a handgun than the growl and bark of a German Shepherd, Rottweiler, or Doberman would do for you.

Aug 13, 2011#273

makare

You can bow hunt. And it would be pretty badass to have a bow for home protection.

Aug 13, 2011#274

Mathias

makare said:
You can bow hunt. And it would be pretty badass to have a bow for home protection.

Potato, Patato. Same shit, different projectile.

Aug 13, 2011#275

Shegokigo

YOU'RE NOT LISTENING. THEY DO NOTHING POSITIVE. I DON'T NEED TO EXPLAIN MYSELF.

Aug 13, 2011#276

Charlie Don't Surf

Killing animals in the wild is barbaric.

Aug 13, 2011#277

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Killing animals in the wild is barbaric.

Darn straight! They should all be raised and slaughtered in factories, just as [deity] intended.

Aug 14, 2011#278

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Killing animals in the wild is barbaric.

And racist. Don't forget racist.

Aug 14, 2011#279

Officer_Charon

2/10. Sort of pathetic. I expect better from my trolling.

Aug 14, 2011#280

Jay

Aug 14, 2011#281

Shegokigo

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Killing animals in the wild is barbaric.

Much better in slaughter houses. Damn do I love me some veal!

Aug 14, 2011#282

CrimsonSoul

Krisken I was pointing out that all handguns, except for revolvers are semi-auto, picking on you, but yeah.

Shotguns are great for home defense, I wish I had one but can't accord the safe to keep it in, they do make fragmentable bullets though for handguns that are less likely to puncture through walls because they fragment on impact.

Someone earlier mentioned "assault rifles" what in your mind is an assault rifle? an AR-15, the one that looks similar to an M-16 but is semi-auto instead of burst fire? The only thing that makes it an "assault rifle" is the way it looks, a few simple modifications and it looks like any other rifle and therefore isn't an assault rifle anymore.

If you're talking about full-auto or burst fire weapons then that's where the ATF gets involved and you have to pay them a $200 tax and get "permission" from your chief of police before you can even purchase it, and that's if the ATF approves and gives you the tax stamp (that you have to keep with the weapon at all times). Unless you're a criminal then steal it or buy it on the black market because screw all that crap.
Added at: 00:24

not trying to belittle anyone with this link, but as an informative message, sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between semi-auto and a full-auto rifle (I loath the term assault rifle)
Added at: 00:25
the officer says it's prohibited to all but police/military but that isn't true as I stated above with the proper route and tax stamps/permissions.
Added at: 00:27
at 6 minutes in he shows the cosmetic change I was talking about

Aug 14, 2011#283

AshburnerX

CrimsonSoul said:
Someone earlier mentioned "assault rifles" what in your mind is an assault rifle? an AR-15, the one that looks similar to an M-16 but is semi-auto instead of burst fire? The only thing that makes it an "assault rifle" is the way it looks, a few simple modifications and it looks like any other rifle and therefore isn't an assault rifle anymore

To be fair, you literally only need to change out one part to make an AR-15 into a full-auto. Said part is illegal to purchase or create, but some people still do it from time to time.

Aug 14, 2011#284

Frankie Williamson

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Killing animals in the wild is barbaric.

I agree. We should all stop eating anything made with corn or wheat because of this.

Aug 14, 2011#285

CrimsonSoul

AshburnerX said:
To be fair, you literally only need to change out one part to make an AR-15 into a full-auto. Said part is illegal to purchase or create, but some people still do it from time to time.

You would also have to have gun smithing/machining skills in order to get the parts to sit correctly in the firearm. It isn't as easy as the media/rumors would have you believe
Added at: 03:34
as evidence how many fully automatic weapons are used in crimes that you see reported on by the media?
Added at: 03:37
also all you have to get is get a rubberband to make a semi-auto faux full auto, and that is legal

Aug 14, 2011#286

Krisken

I wasn't talking hand guns, CrimsonSoul, but I figure you knew that

Aug 14, 2011#287

makare

Krisken said:
I wasn't talking hand guns, CrimsonSoul, but I figure you knew that

In a thread full of sarcasm, extreme generalities and willful stupidity this is never a good assumption to make.

Aug 14, 2011#288

Krisken

It is a failing I make on a continuous basis. Some habits die hard.

Aug 14, 2011#289

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Killing animals in the wild is barbaric.

I guess you think the meat you buy in the supermarket just fell apart and skinned itself, and was wrapped in plastic.

Aug 14, 2011#290

SpecialKO

Quotemander Prime said:
I guess you think the meat you buy in the supermarket just fell apart and skinned itself, and was wrapped in plastic.

Aug 14, 2011#291

Mathias

You Charlie, I backed you up buddy. But it looks like you're only posting to get a rise outta people anymore.

Aug 14, 2011#292

CrimsonSoul

So I was on youtube last night and found this. I want!

That's a semi-auto rifle but the way the slide is made it's like it's firing in full auto, that thing would be a blast at the range!

Aug 14, 2011#293

Biannoshufu

i sometimes wonder if Charlie isn't some strawman Seed AI program funded by Karl Rove's group. He plays liberal views to such an absurdist degree he can't possibly actually believe his viewpoints.

Aug 14, 2011#294

Charlie Don't Surf

Biannoshufu said:
i sometimes wonder if Charlie isn't some strawman Seed AI program funded by Karl Rove's group. He plays liberal views to such an absurdist degree he can't possibly actually believe his viewpoints.

Nope, I'm just a young bleeding-heart actual progressive liberal (as in, farther to the left of Obama).

Aug 14, 2011#295

Shegokigo

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Nope, I'm just a young bleeding-heart actual progressive liberal (as in, farther to the left of Obama).

Hands down the funniest post you've ever made.

You're none of the above except young.

Aug 14, 2011#296

Hailey Knight

The bleeding heart liberal view is that all meat-eating is bad, regardless of who killed it or where.

I feel this quote from Terry Pratchett's Small Gods sums up Charlie these days:

"There was nothing to hear. He might as well be talking to himself and listening to himself.
Like Vorbis.
That thought wouldn't go away. Mind like a steel ball, Om had said. Nothing got in or out. So all Vorbis could hear were the distant echoes of his own soul."

Aug 14, 2011#297

Charlie Don't Surf

I am against meat-eating, and would be a vegetarian if I had stronger willpower.

Aug 14, 2011#298

Jay

Aug 14, 2011#299

Shegokigo

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I am against meat-eating, and would be a vegetarian if I had stronger willpower.

So you basically preach from a soap box made of quicksand? Cause son, you ain't got any ground to stand on.

Aug 14, 2011#300

Biannoshufu

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Nope, I'm just a young bleeding-heart actual progressive liberal (as in, farther to the left of Obama).

That's exactly what I expected the Rove Liberal 5000 to post. Good job.

Aug 14, 2011#301

Charlie Don't Surf

Smoking is gross.

Aug 15, 2011#302

Jax

Ok, I know we got from the riots in London to gun control politics (in America mostly), but how did we get to meat? :confused:

Aug 15, 2011#303

Biannoshufu

Guns + rioters = cannibals paradise?

Aug 15, 2011#304

strawman

Jax said:
Ok, I know we got from the riots in London to gun control politics (in America mostly), but how did we get to meat?

CHARLIE BIT ME!

Aug 15, 2011#305

Shegokigo

Did it really hurt?

Aug 15, 2011#306

Charlie Don't Surf

I only bit him ironically

Aug 15, 2011#307

sixpackshaker

A gun finished Hitler.

Guns stopped the advance of the Japanese Empire, and the Third Reich...

There are many positive things there.

There are barbaric assholes in the world that want what you have, and they will not pay you for it. If my little .40 in my nightstand will keep them from taking it and killing me... it is a good thing. Same thing applies to nations, especially the Axis just 70 years ago.

Aug 15, 2011#308

Jax

Just to be curious, how many people here own a gun? And how many of those have actually prevented a burglary with it (or saved their own lives with it, etc. etc.)?

Aug 15, 2011#309

Covar

I do not, as I don't have the money to spare on such a thing right now (not just the gun, but ammo, a gun safe, and other safety equipment). I'll just have to make due with the wooden softball bat I keep near my bed.

Aug 15, 2011#310

CrimsonSoul

I have a firearm that I carry daily except at work. Thankfully I have never had to use it and hopefully I never will

Aug 15, 2011#311

GasBandit

A gun control argument? Over the weekend? You guys suck.

Well, I'll just repeat what I always say when people start talking about gun control...

In the U.S., the right to keep and bear arms is explicitly guaranteed by the second amendment. The second amendment does not specify "fully" or "semi" or "bolt action" arms, nor how much ammunition is permissible. "But Gas," you say, "the founding fathers could never have imagine the devastation that could be wrought by an uzi with a 50-round clip!" I say to you, what they imagined is that they wanted each and every willing American citizen to be just as armed and potentially deadly as any given soldier. You see, the second amendment is not about hunting, or home defense. It's about making foreign governments hesitant to invade, and domestic governments hesitant to oppress. Yes, at the time of the drafting of the constitution, they were thinking of ball muskets.... but at the time, the ball musket was the deadliest handheld implement of war yet devised. Therefore, a true interpretation of the second amendment would be that the only weapons illegal for purchase to private citizens should be those forbidden a soldier to carry.

And if you're scared of the wild west, remember that was a fiction contrived by the dime store novel industry. The murder rate per 100,000 in 5 "wild west" towns combined (Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell) was 1 per year. In 2007, in new york, it was 6. In Baltimore, it was 45. And bear in mind the difference in access to medical care post-shooting, and the quality of that care - if you were shot in 1870, you were just as likely as not to die of infection, no matter what "Doc Sawbones" did. Today, Hospitals are ubiquitous and antibiotics are common. So the "murder" rate is much less inflated than it would have been 150 years ago.

All that said, I own a shotgun.

Aug 15, 2011#312

Azurephoenix

I don't own any yet but I will be picking up a bolt action 30-06 for deer hunting this year or the next. Might add a pump action shotgun to that list at some point in the future as well.

Aug 15, 2011#313

Jay

I have a fiberglass hockey stick.

Aug 15, 2011#314

Krisken

Don't own one, though someday I'd like a bolt action .22 for range practice. Always enjoyed shooting those in Scouts.

Aug 15, 2011#315

Charlie Don't Surf

I know kung fu

Aug 15, 2011#316

CrimsonSoul

I love you Gas. I couldn't have worded it better myself! With that said. Check out that Saar video I posted it's a stock for an ar 15 that makes it super easy to bump fire with accuracy

Aug 15, 2011#317

SpecialKO

sixpackshaker said:
A gun finished Hitler.

Guns didn't kill Hitler. Hitler killed Hitler.

Aug 15, 2011#318

Krisken

Lets be absurd, then. Nuclear warheads for all.

Aug 15, 2011#319

Covar

Krisken said:
Lets be absurd, then. Nuclear warheads for all.

That's it...

SHUT IT DOWN!

Aug 15, 2011#320

AshburnerX

Krisken said:
Lets be absurd, then. Nuclear warheads for all.

I'd argue that such a weapon is comparable to a cannon during the 1700's, which wouldn't be carried or owned by a soldier but rather the army/militia they were a part of. It would clearly fall outside of the "weapon a soldier would own" view.

Aug 15, 2011#321

CrimsonSoul

And they are super expensive to maintain and store. I had to completely dedicated one of my abandoned missle silos to it!

Aug 15, 2011#322

Covar

CrimsonSoul said:
And they are super expensive to maintain and store. I'd have to completely dedicated one of my abandoned missle silos to it!

I hear those can make nice homes

Aug 15, 2011#323

Krisken

We should probably restrict minorities from owning guns, since when the Constitution was written blacks were considered 3/5ths a person.

Aug 15, 2011#324

Tress

Krisken said:
We should probably restrict minorities from owning guns, since when the Constitution was written blacks were considered 3/5ths a person.

I can show you where that has been changed in the Constitution. On the other hand, you can't show me any change to the 2nd Amendment.

Aug 15, 2011#325

CrimsonSoul

Krisken said:
We should probably restrict minorities from owning guns, since when the Constitution was written blacks were considered 3/5ths a person.

Actually concealed carry laws in some states discourage poor people from applying because they are expensive to get. Texas for example requires a 140 dollar training class plus another 140 for the license. Some states are more expensive. Some states like California restrict concealed licenses to only people the state feels deserves them

Aug 15, 2011#326

Krisken

Tress said:
I can show you where that has been changed in the Constitution. On the other hand, you can't show me any change to the 2nd Amendment.

Yes, but it's being used as an argument for not making a change. "Because X says so" is a terrible argument, and I think I've done alright showing why.

Aug 15, 2011#327

Covar

Tress said:
I can show you where that has been changed in the Constitution. On the other hand, you can't show me any change to the 2nd Amendment.

Strangely twice. Once when it eliminates slavery (3/5ths provision applies to everyone except Free persons (which include indentured servents) and tax-free indians), and then again when it explicitly changes how the house is apportioned.

Aug 15, 2011#328

Chibibar

CrimsonSoul said:
Actually concealed carry laws in some states discourage poor people from applying because they are expensive to get. Texas for example requires a 140 dollar training class plus another 140 for the license. Some states are more expensive. Some states like California restrict concealed licenses to only people the state feels deserves them

Ah but that is to carry CONCEALED gun. In Texas, you can have a shotgun without a license in your home. Technically, you could walk in the street with a shotgun, but that will likely get you shot by the police but technically not illegal. (at least I don't remember the law change)
Now the fuzzy part is that while you can walk around with a gun, it is against the law to bring gun into a building that are restricted (like restaurants, government buildings, public building like libraries and such)

Aug 15, 2011#329

Shegokigo

Krisken said:
Lets be absurd, then. Nuclear warheads for all.

I find your ideas interesting, where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

Aug 15, 2011#330

Krisken

Shegokigo said:
I find your ideas interesting, where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

I'll get the Webzine started and you can subscribe to my RSS feed.

Aug 15, 2011#331

CrimsonSoul

Unless ur inur car our house a concealed license is the only way to carry a handgun in Texas. Rifles and shotguns can be carried though as you stated

Aug 15, 2011#332

Espy

Krisken said:
Don't own one, though someday I'd like a bolt action .22 for range practice. Always enjoyed shooting those in Scouts.

You know, I don't own one either. In fact I've never been a gun guy. Ever. I've always kind of been... uncomfortable with them. Until my buddies took me to a shooting range. It was a surprising amount of fun. And once we moved up to the .45? Hodang. That was sweet. I could totally see me owning a nice pistol for the shooting range. Would I use it for home defense? Probably not. Unless I felt like we were in some serious danger it would be responsibly locked up and away.

Aug 15, 2011#333

GasBandit

A soldier doesn't carry an ICBM. A soldier doesn't carry a howitzer. A soldier doesn't carry a tank. You could have chosen a much more apt example rather than going for the nukes, such as - a lot of people would consider an RPG (or SMAW) to be ridiculous for private ownership yet soldiers DO carry them. We could dicker back and forth about that, if you wanted.

Anyway, the 3/5ths compromise is not valid because it was nullified by amendment. If we nullify the right to keep and bear arms via constitutional amendment, that'll be different too.

(Funny ass version) No, wait, it's easy... they can only own 3/5ths of a gun!

Aug 15, 2011#334

Chibibar

CrimsonSoul said:
Unless ur inur car our house a concealed license is the only way to carry a handgun in Texas. Rifles and shotguns can be carried though as you stated

that is why I capitalize concealed gun

you are correct. Handgun cannot be carried in the street (easy to concealed). You can have a shotgun in your car without a license. (or a rifle)
the law limit the automatic. So you can have a semi-automatic AK-47 in your truck in Texas

(pushing it but technically legal)

Aug 15, 2011#335

CrimsonSoul

Not pushing it at all you could walk down the street with one on your back and it's legal. Just have to watch for schools because of the gfsz law that is stupid because it prevents nothing

Aug 15, 2011#336

GasBandit

I came across this and just had to share it, after wiping tears of laughter out of my eyes...

Ladies and Gentlemen...

The HELLGLOCK.

Aug 15, 2011#337

Chibibar

GasBandit said:
I came across this and just had to share it, after wiping tears of laughter out of my eyes...

Ladies and Gentlemen...

The HELLGLOCK.

LOL. I am trying to think if this is even possible in Shadowrun world (where you can get some seriously interesting gun) I think you can fire that baby ONCE and it will fall apart

Aug 15, 2011#338

Officer_Charon

GENTLEMEN

Aug 15, 2011#339

CrimsonSoul

Hahahahahahahahaha!

Aug 15, 2011#340

GasBandit

Chibibar said:
LOL. I am trying to think if this is even possible in Shadowrun world (where you can get some seriously interesting gun) I think you can fire that baby ONCE and it will fall apart

More like a single pull of the trigger will set off a neutron bomb which will selectively kill all babies, women, and minorities within a 10 mile radius.

Aug 15, 2011#341

SpecialKO

That video fails because he didn't pull Duncan MacLeod's katana out of the ejection port.

Aug 15, 2011#342

Krisken

GasBandit said:
Anyway, the 3/5ths compromise is not valid because it was nullified by amendment. If we nullify the right to keep and bear arms via constitutional amendment, that'll be different too.

Thanks for entirely missing what I said

Aug 15, 2011#343

Chibibar

SpecialKO said:
That video fails because he didn't pull Duncan MacLeod's katana out of the ejection port.

Heh. I was hoping a spare ninja sword (I mean there was a mask in there)

Aug 15, 2011#344

PatrThom

Jax said:
Just to be curious, how many people here own a gun? And how many of those have actually prevented a burglary with it (or saved their own lives with it, etc. etc.)?

I am a gun owner. I have several. Handguns from .22S up to .44Mag*, long guns from .22S/LR up through 12gauge. They are all functional, yet I use them perhaps once a year, at most. I handload my own (.357/.38SPL, .44SPL/Mag) ammunition, which gives me a certain flexibility (when I'm not being lazy).

-I have been robbed while working overnight at a convenience store. The dude was significantly larger than I, and he was only after the cigarettes. He shoved me out of the way, grabbed several cartons while warning me that I should not interfere, and then fled to a car in the parking lot next door. I followed at enough distance to be able to safely get a look at the vehicle but dropped immediately to the ground (behind the berm) when I noticed that it was occupied by another person.
-I have been menaced by a coworker while at this same job (which I left a long time ago, duh). This person intimidated me over the intercom, came behind the counter in full motorcycle gear (helmet and leathers) and berated me for putting the moves on his girlfriend (they're both certifiably crazy and completely deserve whatever they do to one another, btw). He loudly roughed up the displays a bit and left when I did not engage him.

In both cases, I was in possession of a legally licensed (and loaded) handgun. But in neither case did I brandish it, nor did I ever even make a move to wield it. In neither situation did I feel at any time like my life was being directly threatened, and I was completely unconcerned about any property damage and/or loss. I carried it for exactly one reason, and that reason was to protect my personal life and safety. As there was no point where either was threatened, there was therefore no point where I needed to reach for it nor even hint at its existence. Had there been a situation where I felt my survival might have been in question, things might have gone differently, but that was never tested. I have never regretted these choices of (in)action, not even once.

I feel that I meet the criterion of being "responsible enough" to bear arms. I point to the above (at minimum!) as evidence. I wince visibly when I think about how recent news events are going to make it harder for me to reassure authorities that I am worthy...that I am one of the "good guys."

Also, Re: London, this:

Right now, guns are not our biggest problem.

--Patrick
*Including a very early model 4" Python (exactly like this one). I love that thing.

Aug 15, 2011#345

Shegokigo

These two Ninja Glocks were some of the best purchases I ever made.

Aug 15, 2011#346

Frankie Williamson

S&W 5946 is the RCMP's sidearm of choice. It's heavy, has the stopping power of a BB gun and we all hate it.

Aug 15, 2011#347

CrimsonSoul

Nothing beats the beauty and reliability of a 1911 there's a reason why the design and function is 100 years old and still popular.

Aug 16, 2011#348

sixpackshaker

SpecialKO said:
Guns didn't kill Hitler. Hitler killed Hitler.

Hitler did not kill Hitler, he did not beat himself in the head with his bare hands. He took poison and shot himself with a GUN. Because a lot of screaming Commies were at the "gates" with a butt-load of GUNS.

Aug 16, 2011#349

Jay

Frankie Williamson said:
S&W 5946 is the RCMP's sidearm of choice. It's heavy, has the stopping power of a BB gun and we all hate it.

Weren't they discontinued a few years ago? What is the RCMP doing to replace those?

Either way, beyond being heavy the 5946 is easy to maintain and is fairly accurate. Normal duty don't require a whole lot of stopping power.

The Glock 22 is sexy. I got one... as a BB gun.

Aug 16, 2011#350

Frankie Williamson

Yeah, there isn't a one of us that wouldn't trade it for a glock in a second. And the RCMP has warehouses of the fucking things. We'll be stuck with them for probably another decade or longer. We'll have patrol rifles before we get new sidearms and they've been debating patrol rifles for the better part of 15 years now.
Added at: 02:25

Jay said:
Normal duty don't require a whole lot of stopping power.

I couldn't disagree more. We don't need magnums, but 9 mm are a step above pop guns.

Aug 16, 2011#351

AshburnerX

Aren't most police groups in the world moving up to the .40-.41 range because of issues with the 9mm and it's stopping power? It's also the reason that most officers use hollow-points these days (increased stopping power on suspects and decreased chance of penetrating into a civilian).

Aug 16, 2011#352

GasBandit

I'm no gun expert, but it seems to me that hollow points only have decreased penetration against armored targets... not unarmored civilians, where it would actually cause more internal damage.

Aug 16, 2011#353

Chad Sexington

GasBandit said:
I'm no gun expert, but it seems to me that hollow points only have decreased penetration against armored targets... not unarmored civilians, where it would actually cause more internal damage.

The idea is that it won't go through the intended target and then into an innocent civilian. Hollow-point rounds tend to ricochet around inside the body where they indeed cause massive internal damage. Full metal jacket bullets are much more likely to go through and into the surroundings, potentially wounding others.

Aug 16, 2011#354

GasBandit

Chad Sexington said:
The idea is that it won't go through the intended target and then into an innocent civilian. Hollow-point rounds tend to ricochet around inside the body where they indeed cause massive internal damage. Full metal jacket bullets are much more likely to go through and into the surroundings, potentially wounding others.

Ahh, I see. That makes a degree of sense. Though it kind of derails Keanu's "shoot the hostage" move a la Speed. heh.

Aug 16, 2011#355

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
I'm no gun expert, but it seems to me that hollow points only have decreased penetration against armored targets... not unarmored civilians, where it would actually cause more internal damage.

It's mainly about making sure your bullets don't pass through a suspect and into someone else in the line of fire (which is, admittedly, a bad shot to begin with) and to make sure your rounds don't penetrate through an interior wall and into someone you didn't even see. That last bit is one of the reasons why frangible bullets are hitting the market as well, as they are even less likely to hit someone through a wall.

Aug 16, 2011#356

CrimsonSoul

Gas the reason that hollow points don't normally go through a human target is because they expand most of their energy on impact because they mushroom out and rhe bigger surface area causes more drag and slows it down

Aug 16, 2011#357

AshburnerX

CrimsonSoul said:
Gas the reason that hollow points don't normally go through a human target is because they expand most of their energy on impact because they mushroom out and rhe bigger surface area causes more drag and slows it down

This also tends to knock the wind out of anyone it doesn't kill, which is even better for a police officer. After all, the point is to get them to stop resisting, not necessarily to kill them.

Aug 16, 2011#358

Jay

A civ got killed in Montreal a few months back because of such a ricrochet I believe. He was 100 feet away from the intended shot and got the bullet in the head and died instantly.

When life shits you bricks...

Aug 16, 2011#359

Charlie Don't Surf

AshburnerX said:
This also tends to knock the wind out of anyone it doesn't kill, which is even better for a police officer. After all, the point is to get them to stop resisting, not necessarily to kill them.

This post is 100% wrong. If you fire a gun at anyone, you are trying to end their life. Period. I detest guns, and even I know that's the first rule of handling a gun.

Aug 16, 2011#360

PatrThom

I would have expected most Law Enforcement would have moved into the 10mm range (.40S&W, .41) by now just for the bigger cross section. Frangible bullets (such as the Glaser Safety Slug) exist to prevent overpenetration and ricochet and the accidental injury/death of people alongside or behind the intended target. One of the reasons a shotgun is the standard for home defense is that its range is limited and (non-steel) shot doesn't ricochet.

There ARE times when you want the extra penetration (armored target, under cover) but there are very few of those situations where you wouldn't just be better off with a rifle/carbine anyway.

--Patrick

Aug 16, 2011#361

AshburnerX

Charlie Don't Surf said:
This post is 100% wrong. If you fire a gun at anyone, you are trying to end their life. Period. I detest guns, and even I know that's the first rule of handling a gun.

That's the intention, but officers of the law are held to a different standard. If they weren't, they'd be allowed to empty rounds into someone on the ground just to make sure they were dead. Your only allowed to respond with that kind of force as long as they are still a threat (I.E. they are standing or trying to resist). Your shooting to kill, but it's not like you can execute them as they are bleeding out on the pavement (unless they keep trying to resist).

Aug 16, 2011#362

Covar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
This post is 100% wrong. If you fire a gun at anyone, you are trying to end their life. Period. I detest guns, and even I know that's the first rule of handling a gun.

Or you're trying to keep them from returning fire so your partners can move into a better position. It's called suppression fire. Not every shot is designed to kill.

Aug 16, 2011#363

CrimsonSoul

I agree with Charlie on this one. While yes police are shooting to stop the threat the first or second rule of firearms is don't point it at anything you don't intend to (or aren't willing to, in this case) kill

Aug 16, 2011#364

Officer_Charon

Frankie Williamson said:
I couldn't disagree more. We don't need magnums, but 9 mm are a step above pop guns.

Truth. Funny thing about deadly force situations: you want the threat stopped, and you want it stopped right then. If the person requires an injection of vitamin L, you don't have time to wait for them to exsanguinate due to numerous little holes. You want one big hole, from a round that hits hard enough to stun the nervous system, halting them long enough to lose inertia from adrenaline.

Aug 16, 2011#365

Jay

Most cops I have worked with have never shot their gun on duty. At an install site today, I actually asked this question same question to 4 police officers that I was training and with a combined 102 years of experience between them, only one of them admitted that they shot their weapon and even so only pulled the trigger once. He shrugged and said, "I only needed one shot" with a cold stare in his eyes. I liked him right away.

PS : They were all carring 5946s. The officer in question had a nice once though being extra shiny and nickle plated.

Aug 16, 2011#366

Officer_Charon

As an illustrative example, the other day I had a soldier (Special Forces tryout) who was drunk out of his mind and having a severe PTSD episode. He had already demonstrated that he was a) feeling no pain and b) not present in reality, in his mind, due to his actions prior to police arrival. I was the only one onscene, waiting on backup, when he spotted me and started coming towards me.

I had no desire to do anything to hurt this man - it wasn't his fault that he was having his episode. However, if he was feeling no pain, my pain compliance techniques, OC spray and baton would be ineffective, and I carry no taser. He was smaller in height and weight, but in FAR better shape than me.

The Force Continuum is a vague guideline that comes down to two simple requirements: is the level of force reasonable and necessary?

In that situation, if he had decided to bullrush me, as he was beginning to do, there would have been very little I could have done to defend myself. I would have needed something to incapacitate his system, rather than cause him to comply via pain (i.e. taser, supersock, or lethal force). I only have one thing on my belt that would have fit the bill.

Doesn't mean it would have been an easy call to make.

Aug 16, 2011#367

Jay

WHAT DID YOU DO?

Aug 16, 2011#368

Officer_Charon

Thankfully, this was the point he started (slowly) coming back to reality, and after chasing him through several apartment complexes (while he was calling out squad rushes and covering behind stanchions and trees and such) and calling for backup, I was able to get him surrounded by enough military veteran officers that he trusted us to secure him in cuffs.

He was terrified that he had done something to his wife and baby boy. Thankfully not.

Had he NOT started coming back to the here and now, though... there are times that this job is not fun, and dealing with veterans can be one of them.

Aug 16, 2011#369

Jay

Indeed good Sir. Indeed.

Aug 16, 2011#370

Krisken

Officer_Charon said:
...I only have one thing on my belt that would have fit the bill.

Shark repellant? Tell me it was shark repellant.

Aug 16, 2011#371

Covar

O_C is always prepared.

Aug 16, 2011#372

Krisken

Barracuda? Now that's just silly. Everyone knows that doesn't belong among the oceanic repellent sprays.

Aug 16, 2011#373

drifter

Krisken said:
Barracuda? Now that's just silly. Everyone knows that doesn't belong among the oceanic repellent sprays.

Huh?

Aug 16, 2011#374

Krisken

It's a car repellant.
Added at: 16:12

drifter said:
Huh?

Car repellent, ya know. (being super obtuse)

Aug 16, 2011#375

Officer_Charon

Aug 16, 2011#376

PatrThom

And here I thought it was to counteract the power of Heart.

--Patrick

Aug 18, 2011#377

@Li3n

Some historical perspective: http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/08/civil-disorder-and-looting-hits-britain-0

Our streets are actually not as safe as they were in the days of our grandfathers. We have slipped back to a state of affairs that would be intolerable even in Naples. - 1862

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