*sighs, turns over "DAYS SINCE LAST MASS SHOOTING IN AMERICA" sign to 0*

[PatrThom]

It is an extremely amusing mental image, though.
Anthropomorphism is frequently a convenient tool to divorce one's self from one's actions. "I didn't do it, it was the (video games/autism/medication/voices/aliens) that made me!"
Or the ones that basically boil down to, "If that (gun/knife/baseball bat/car/sword/rock/candlestick/rope/wrench/object) hadn't been (convenient location), then (person) would still be alive today!"

--Patrick

 

[figmentPez]

I've been hearing a lot of people say "society teaches hatred of women, that's why they're the victims of violence" and that's true, but then they go on to say "society doesn't teach us to hate men"... which isn't. The result of the hatred that society teaches for men isn't open aggression, it's passive-aggression. It's all the subtle ways that we find to trap men into being the stereotypes we've set out for masculinity, and punish them both for being "manly" or for failing to be "manly". The results of that hatred aren't seen primarily in women killing men, but in the suicide rates. We teach men to hate themselves, and then go on to teach them that it's shameful for them to reach out for help. Women don't have to kill men because of socially taught hatred, because men are already killing themselves.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I've been hearing a lot of people say "society teaches hatred of women, that's why they're the victims of violence" and that's true, but then they go on to say "society doesn't teach us to hate men"... which isn't. The result of the hatred that society teaches for men isn't open aggression, it's passive-aggression. It's all the subtle ways that we find to trap men into being the stereotypes we've set out for masculinity, and punish them both for being "manly" or for failing to be "manly". The results of that hatred aren't seen primarily in women killing men, but in the suicide rates. We teach men to hate themselves, and then go on to teach them that it's shameful for them to reach out for help. Women don't have to kill men because of socially taught hatred, because men are already killing themselves.

holy fucking shit

 

[figmentPez]

holy fucking shit

Excellent, perfect example of the passive-aggression that society teaches in shutting down men. Any time a man wants to bring up a legitimate social problem faced by his gender, it's just met with this type of mockery. That's exactly why the suicide rate is so high for men. They're mocked for even attempting to say that they feel something is wrong, and that they don't know what to do about it.

 

[LittleSin]

holy fucking shit

What he said.

WHAT.[DOUBLEPOST=1401060308,1401060204][/DOUBLEPOST]

Excellent, perfect example of the passive-aggression that society teaches in shutting down men. Any time a man wants to bring up a legitimate social problem faced by his gender, it's just met with this type of mockery. That's exactly why the suicide rate is so high for men. They're mocked for even attempting to say that they feel something is wrong, and that they don't know what to do about it.

Dude, mental health across all genders and races is huge fucking stigma.

Too say its a problem 'for the men' because 'men are taught to hate themselves' is nuts! We are all taught to hate ourselves and then fear asking for help because we might be viewed as broken!

I just can't even imagine your line of thinking here.

 

[figmentPez]

Too say its a problem 'for the men' because 'men are taught to hate themselves' is nuts! We are all taught to hate ourselves and then fear asking for help because we might be viewed as broken!

Statistically men are less likely to seek medical help of any kind, are more likely to succeed in their suicide attempts, are less likely to be hospitalized for mental health issues, stay in treatment shorter periods, and die from suicide at much higher rates than women. Suicide is, I think, #7 on the list of causes of death for men, and doesn't crack the top 10 for women.

 

[LittleSin]

Statistically men are less likely to seek medical help of any kind, are more likely to succeed in their suicide attempts, are less likely to be hospitalized for mental health issues, stay in treatment shorter periods, and die from suicide at much higher rates than women. Suicide is, I think, #7 on the list of causes of death for men, and doesn't crack the top 10 for women.

Okay. How do I respond.

Women attempt to commit suicide at much a higher rate than men. Men are more successful. The primary cause of this is thought to be the fact that women are more 'considerate' of those who might find them, going for less messy tactics such as poisoning, which is not reliable. They also usually set up a tighter social net around themselves, making it so they are found before death can occur.

Men tend to go with violent solutions meant to leave an impact on those that find them. They also tend to isolate themselves in their pain. Now this may be due to society saying that men should be lone wolves and if so it needs to change...however I've never seen an MRA or something champion mental health for their fellow man. I never see them reach out and comfort each other and offer solutions. I do see a lot of blaming outside factors for their fellow mans mental health.

Anyways, anyone ending their life or the life of another is terrible.

Not sure if this discussion belongs here....

 

[mikerc]

Statistically men are less likely to seek medical help of any kind, are more likely to succeed in their suicide attempts, are less likely to be hospitalized for mental health issues, stay in treatment shorter periods, and die from suicide at much higher rates than women. Suicide is, I think, #7 on the list of causes of death for men, and doesn't crack the top 10 for women.

Differences in suicide rates between men & women according to the WHO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Pretty much every country that tracks suicide by gender has men more likely to commit suicide than women.

None of which changes the fact that despite the occasional category where men are worse off than women we are still in general much better off.
I'm not quite sure what it is you're arguing for Pez. I think it's that there should be people campaigning to deal with this in the same way people are campaigning against female inequality. Thing is there are people doing this. They're called feminists, and they're doing it as part of the fight against inequality in general.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Differences in suicide rates between men & women according to the WHO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Pretty much every country that tracks suicide by gender has men more likely to commit suicide than women.

None of which changes the fact that despite the occasional category where men are worse off than women we are still in general much better off.
I'm not quite sure what it is you're arguing for Pez. I think it's that there should be people campaigning to deal with this in the same way people are campaigning against female inequality. Thing is there are people doing this. They're called feminists, and they're doing it as part of the fight against inequality in general.

I feel like a lot of this stems from casual misinformation, in seeing the word 'feminism' without parsing what it means. Feminism is a bit of a misnomer, as it's the idea of equality for -everyone-, which is often not acknowledged by the fringes on both sides (the so called 'man hater' feminists as well as 'mens rights' activists.) It's kinda like pointing at the KKK and saying "Look at how dangerous christianity is!"

 

[figmentPez]

None of which changes the fact that despite the occasional category where men are worse off than women we are still in general much better off.
I'm not quite sure what it is you're arguing for Pez. I think it's that there should be people campaigning to deal with this in the same way people are campaigning against female inequality. Thing is there are people doing this. They're called feminists, and they're doing it as part of the fight against inequality in general.

There's a whole generation of feminists that haven't learned yet that they're supposed to care for everyone. If no one speaks up to tell this young generation that feminism is about everyone, they're not going to learn. Pay attention to what young feminists are saying, and you'll hear many saying "men's problems are their own, we're not here to do anything for men". They're a small part of the feminist movement, but they're the future of the movement unless they're swayed otherwise. I bring up stuff like this because I consider myself a feminist, and I want my sons to be able to consider themselves feminists as well.

Except, whenever you point out that men do have disadvantages, you get labeled as being against feminism, which I most certainly am not. All I wanted to do was correct a common misconception that I've seen going around. Namely that society doesn't teach hatred of men, when we clearly do. We teach all sorts of negative stereotypes about men, and then teach that those negative stereotypes are reasons to hate men. It's not universal that everyone believes those messages, no more than everyone believes society when it tells us to hate women, but obviously enough young men believe those awful lies that there is a lot of self-hatred among men. Which I think is very clearly expressed in the problems that LittleSin sees in the MRA groups, namely that they don't build each other up. They express hatred for their own gender by not reaching out to each other, and reinforcing the negative stereotypes that keep them isolated. It's a selfish, angry, depressed way of going about things, and it's the way far too many men are taught to treat other men.

 

[mikerc]

I've never seen an MRA or something champion mental health for their fellow man. I never see them reach out and comfort each other and offer solutions. I do see a lot of blaming outside factors for their fellow mans mental health.

Just as there are a minority of female extremists who aren't interested in fighting inequality so much as blaming men there are male extremists who just want to blame women. Thing is while the men who are genuinely interested in fighting inequality are working alongside (and even calling themselves) feminists the extremists are the ones calling themselves "Mens Right's Activists". If someone's calling themself an MRA it's pretty much a given that they're not interested in helping others as they are in hurting them.

 

[PatrThom]

Just so we're clear on something:
MRA != Misogynyst
Feminist != Misandrist

Many people use these pairs of terms interchangeably, as if being one automatically includes being the other. This is a fallacy. In fact, I would propose that it is actually impossible to be both simultaneously.

--Patrick

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Pez, you are tilting at windmills here

 

[Hailey Knight]

Pez, you really need to take a break from Tumblr.

 

[GasBandit]

I'm extremely sorry you don't understand how language works, life must be hard for you.

 

[figmentPez]

Pez, you really need to take a break from Tumblr.

Except the same messages are getting repeated on my Twitter, on nerd news sites, and on my Facebook. Young women I actually know in person are repeating these negative stereotypes about men, expressing the idea that women have no responsibility to help men, and generally making feminism look bad. I know at least three young women who refuse to identify as feminists because they think feminism is about hating men and being a "social justice warrior". These are intelligent young women who only reject the name feminism, but otherwise hold to the ideals of equality. They've just heard the exact same crap that I have, and have been turned off by it. The negative reputation that feminism has also makes discussions with young men more difficult, and I have had to explain to guys that feminism is not about hating men. These are serious, real life, honest to goodness problems that feminism has, that I have seen first hand, and in person. I have seen what happens when the loudest voices in a sub-culture are the asshat "feminists" who are only interested in promoting fear and hate, and I really don't like it.

 

[Tress]

So what if I say that, based on my own personal experience, you're wrong? Which person's anecdotal evidence is more valid?

 

[Hailey Knight]

Except the same messages are getting repeated on my Twitter, on nerd news sites, and on my Facebook.

Then you might need a break from the internet. What I see leaving my house, going out into the city, on public transit, etc. is not reflected in the skewed vision of the posts I see on Tumblr and apparently bleed over into other sites. Many on them are disconnected from the real world.

Young women I actually know in person are repeating these negative stereotypes about men, expressing the idea that women have no responsibility to help men, and generally making feminism look bad. I know at least three young women who refuse to identify as feminists because they think feminism is about hating men and being a "social justice warrior". These are intelligent young women who only reject the name feminism, but otherwise hold to the ideals of equality.

Men do this too. Men on this forum have done this.

They've just heard the exact same crap that I have, and have been turned off by it. The negative reputation that feminism has also makes discussions with young men more difficult, and I have had to explain to guys that feminism is not about hating men. These are serious, real life, honest to goodness problems that feminism has, that I have seen first hand, and in person. I have seen what happens when the loudest voices in a sub-culture are the asshat "feminists" who are only interested in promoting fear and hate, and I really don't like it.

Same goes for almost every "-ism" there has ever been. No one wants to be represented by their extremist majority, yet that fraction tends to have the loudest voice. The answer in this case is not MRA, it's actual feminists making a point of what that means.

 

[figmentPez]

So, no one is going to mention that this guy killed more men than he did women, and that the only victims he specifically targeted were men. He killed his roommates because they "were the biggest nerds [he] had ever seen, and they were both very ugly with annoying voices," (source) should I be afraid because I'm a big nerd? This sicko hated people, period. He hated them for being ugly, he hated them for being attractive, he hated people.

 

[tegid]

(Many feminists are confused about what feminism is, etc)

Maybe. But the solution to this is NOT men's rights movements, which is where the discussion is coming from. The solution is not shifting the focus to the problems men have but trying to widen it. If you try to shift the focus you are taking it away from the obviously (and more intensely) oppressed (i.e. women) and that 1- attracts the wrong sort of people and 2-naturally doesn't sit well with women.

(Also every feminist I have actually met does not think like these feminazis that you see on the internet, although their focus may in some cases need more widening)

 

[DarkAudit]

Then you have the folks who post the fuck whitey (they're white), fuck straight people (they're straight, AFAIK), fuck cis people (so are they... are you noticing a trend?) kill *all* men (ok, this time they're women) stuff. And then turn right around and post a "don't hate" cartoon that's in response to all the other toxic bullshit they've been posting.

How do you politely call someone out on that hypocrisy when you know them, and would consider them a friend if not for all this crap?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

So, no one is going to mention that this guy killed more men than he did women, and that the only victims he specifically targeted were men

The place he did most of the shooting was a sorority house.[DOUBLEPOST=1401097469,1401097413][/DOUBLEPOST]

like these feminazis

please don't use that term, it makes you seem like Rush Limbaugh[DOUBLEPOST=1401097850][/DOUBLEPOST]

the folks who post the fuck whitey (they're white), fuck straight people (they're straight, AFAIK), fuck cis people (so are they... are you noticing a trend?) kill *all* men (ok, this time they're women) stuff.

I can't speak for everyone's psyche, but I see this among my friends as well. I read it as the powerless lashing out / joking more than the kind of toxic / serious feelings from the other side (see: violence on women due to sexual jealousy, people attacked for being gay/trans, the systematic oppression of black people in America for the last ~200 + years).[DOUBLEPOST=1401097974][/DOUBLEPOST]

Statistically men are less likely to seek medical help of any kind, are more likely to succeed in their suicide attempts, are less likely to be hospitalized for mental health issues, stay in treatment shorter periods, and die from suicide at much higher rates than women. Suicide is, I think, #7 on the list of causes of death for men, and doesn't crack the top 10 for women.

if you want to clutch your pearls and help men with the inequalities causing them to commit suicide, you could also maybe turn your compassionate eye to the transgender community, who have a much higher suicide problem due to society shitting on them at every single turn: http://articles.latimes.com/2014/ja...uicide-attempts-alarming-transgender-20140127

 

[tegid]

Meh, I think we do need a word to distinguish legit feminists from 'female supremacy' assholes who call themselves feminists, and the one I use in Spanish translates to something like 'femalist', which doesn't work so well.[DOUBLEPOST=1401098145,1401098020][/DOUBLEPOST]

if you want to clutch your pearls and help men with the inequalities causing them to commit suicide, you could also maybe turn your compassionate eye to the transgender community, who have a much higher suicide problem due to society shitting on them at every single turn: http://articles.latimes.com/2014/ja...uicide-attempts-alarming-transgender-20140127

That's bullshit and works against feminism as well ("Hey stop complaining you cis women and start helping the people who are actually suffering")

 

[DarkAudit]

Rush and O'Reilly are part of the problem. Especially Billo. He's blamed a teenager for her own rape and murder on the air. The only excuse to keep him around? "Because ratings."

 

[Hailey Knight]

should I be afraid because I'm a big nerd?

Absolutely.

I can't speak for everyone's psyche, but I see this among my friends as well. I read it as the powerless lashing out / joking more than the kind of toxic / serious feelings from the other side (see: violence on women due to sexual jealousy, people attacked for being gay/trans, the systematic oppression of black people in America for the last ~200 + years).

But it's not from the other side. If it was someone in the minority of the sexuality, gender identity, ethnicity demographics, I would understand is as powerless lashing out. But Dark Audit is correct, the people this stuff comes from is white people saying "fuck white people", straight people saying "fuck straight people", and the biggest one that I see on Tumblr being cisgender people saying "fuck cis people".

It's bizarre. I can comprehend self-loathing; we've all been teenagers at one point in our lives, and many of the social justice warriors haven't hit their junior year of high school. But they act like the victims and they're not. They're part of the majority that they damn, in one section or another.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Meh, I think we do need a word to distinguish legit feminists from 'female supremacy' assholes who call themselves feminists, and the one I use in Spanish translates to something like 'femalist', which doesn't work so well.[DOUBLEPOST=1401098145,1401098020][/DOUBLEPOST]

That's bullshit and works against feminism as well ("Hey stop complaining you cis women and start helping the people who are actually suffering")

I'm just saying feminazi is a poor choice since it's invoking nazis AND is super popularized by one of the worst human beings in politics.

I'm not telling cis women to stop complaining, or telling anyone to stop complaining, just pointing out a class of people that are actually oppressed and pushed to suicide on a scale and rate dwarfing men

 

[Terrik]

Rush and O'Reilly are part of the problem. Especially Billo. He's blamed a teenager for her own rape and murder on the air. The only excuse to keep him around? "Because ratings."

Citation needed?

 

[DarkAudit]

Citation needed?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1819428

There's more out there. Just google "O'Reilly blames rape victim".

 

[figmentPez]

Absolutely.

Yeah, no. Stan Lee has a higher chance of dying from con crud than I do of being a murder victim. I'm not going to live my life afraid of every stranger just because someone might target me because I'm a nerd. I'm not going to give in a live in fear because something bad might happen. And I'm certainly not going to spread FUD about an entire gender.

Tweet from a webcomic artist I used to follow "Women live in an ever-shrinking space. Don't go out at night. See who's standing behind you. Change sidewalks. Leave. Flee. Run" Would this statement be acceptable if it were a white person talking about black people?

This next comment isn't from anyone famous, but it's repeated in various forms in a lot of commentary "It doesn't have to be 'all men.' It's enough men. Certainly enough that the sane thing to do is avoid the moment bells go off." Again, if this were a white person talking about black people, would this be an acceptable statement? Would it be in any way an acceptable message to say "I know not all black people are criminals, but it's enough. The only sane thing to do is cross to the other side of the street if you see one walking towards you."

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Maybe you should take a step back before you have your own manifesto

 

[LittleSin]

I've been trying to write an intelligent argument. I have pages of statistics up and articles and victim-offender report and race profiles, etc.

All with the hope of writing something that'll make you, pez, see the problems with what you just wrote.

I started writing...then stopped. Why would I bother? You feel men have been victimized. You feel this in your heart. What can I do to change that opinion?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

So I will simply say what truly keeps coming to my mind. An emotional response that was my first thought when I read your post:

"Impressive. I don't think I would be able to type that coherently with my head that far up my own ass."

 

[Hailey Knight]

Yeah, no. Stan Lee has a higher chance of dying from con crud than I do of being a murder victim. I'm not going to live my life afraid of every stranger just because someone might target me because I'm a nerd.

No shit.

should I be afraid because I'm a big nerd?

Absolutely.

-_-

I'm not going to give in a live in fear because something bad might happen.

Tweet from a webcomic artist I used to follow "Women live in an ever-shrinking space. Don't go out at night. See who's standing behind you. Change sidewalks. Leave. Flee. Run"

It is instruction given to girls and women on how to survive. No one wants to live that way, but it's a survival tactic passed down on how to avoid being the target. I wouldn't want to live that way, but I see my wife, sister, friends, and so on having to keep a warier eye than I do because they're more likely to be victims of violence than I ever will be.

This next comment isn't from anyone famous, but it's repeated in various forms in a lot of commentary "It doesn't have to be 'all men.' It's enough men. Certainly enough that the sane thing to do is avoid the moment bells go off.

Yes. And?

Once again, this is an issue of survival. In a better world, no one would need this perspective.

Would this statement be acceptable if it were a white person talking about black people?

Again, if this were a white person talking about black people, would this be an acceptable statement? Would it be in any way an acceptable message to say "I know not all black people are criminals, but it's enough. The only sane thing to do is cross to the other side of the street if you see one walking towards you."

You seem awfully terrified of black people.


Next we need a topic about how the Christian majority is being oppressed.

 

[MindDetective]

I'm not sure why people are having a hard time with this. Nobody deserves abuse or neglect, whether men or women. The MRA crap does nothing to help either's cause.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

 

[tegid]

Tweet from a webcomic artist I used to follow "Women live in an ever-shrinking space. Don't go out at night. See who's standing behind you. Change sidewalks. Leave. Flee. Run" Would this statement be acceptable if it were a white person talking about black people?

I don't understand, without context what I interpret is that all these messages shrink living space for women. The messages seem to be as wrong as the reasons behind them in the first place.

This next comment isn't from anyone famous, but it's repeated in various forms in a lot of commentary "It doesn't have to be 'all men.' It's enough men. Certainly enough that the sane thing to do is avoid the moment bells go off." Again, if this were a white person talking about black people, would this be an acceptable statement? Would it be in any way an acceptable message to say "I know not all black people are criminals, but it's enough. The only sane thing to do is cross to the other side of the street if you see one walking towards you."

You are missing a key part in all forms of oppression: power relations. There is a marked difference between a woman being scared of men and saying so and a white persone being scared of a black person and saying so. In the first case, the man holds the power in society, and saying that you are scared won't change that; whereas in the second case the black is the oppressed, and the powerful saying he is dangerous may further the oppression.

Also, I don't think 'don't go out at night', 'cross the street if you see a man walking around' etc are very good messages to be throwing around any way.

 

[figmentPez]

You are missing a key part in all forms of oppression: power relations. There is a marked difference between a woman being scared of men and saying so and a white persone being scared of a black person and saying so. In the first case, the man holds the power in society, and saying that you are scared won't change that; whereas in the second case the black is the oppressed, and the powerful saying he is dangerous may further the oppression.

Except those are stereotyped generalizations that aren't always true. Some women hold more power than men, and some black people hold more power than white people. It's not an absolute, and that's why blind prejudice against a group is so wrong. "The man holds power" isn't always true. It's true quite often, and men as a gender are far from oppressed, but that doesn't make it right to promote prejudice against men just because some of them are in power. Saying, "I have to be careful when I go out at night because a criminal might rob me" is a vastly different statement than "My demographic can't go out at night because other demographic exists".