What are you playing?

[Hailey Knight]

Fire Emblem Awakening is beginning to frustrate me. I've lost ... probably 10 characters in this playthrough, and as I press onward I realize my main character could be deployed alone and probably win every battle. Speed is her number 1 stat and she has the right sword skills to be practically untouchable. Deploying the rest of the army is just offering a chance to get them killed.

I guess I should start a Lunatic mode next time if I don't want to walk through this without a thought.

 

[Hailey Knight]

In other RPG matters, I really wish Edea and Ringabel were the main characters of Bravely Default.

 

[Dei]

The Ringabel thing actually irritated the shit out of me.

Spoiler

Edea didn't recognize him in the first place? Bullshit bullshit bullshit

That was my favorite part of the story other than that blatant fuck up though.

 

[CynicismKills]

I still haven't finished Bravely Default,

Spoiler

I can't bring myself to go back and do the crystal shit all over again.

 

[Hailey Knight]

I'm in Chapter 2, so I can't read whatever's in those. I just know Tiz and Agnes range from dull to wet blanket, while Edea and Ringabel are entertaining and less stoic.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Bravely Default: I'm not really enjoying this game, but at the same time I'm not loathing it, if that makes sense. When I open my 3DS and start it up, I don't think "I wanna play Bravely Default", I think "I should play Bravely Default." It's more an insistence on eventually finishing it than because I like it. It is what I would've wanted years ago, but I really just think I've grown past this kind of game, and I should've just hopped into a let's play. But, since I do own it, and I downloaded it so I'll own it forever and can't sell it, I'm just gonna keep going 15 to 30 minutes at a time. Don't know how I'll be once that certain something happens with means I have a lot of re-do to do, but for now I'll keep going.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with the game. It is the Final Fantasy everyone has been wanting. I just don't think that's for me anymore.

 

[GasBandit]

 

[LordRendar]

I never knew I needed that in my life,but now I dont think I can live without it.

 

[bhamv3]

"That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, who came up with this moronic idea? That couldn't possibly go well with Skyrim!"

*watches the video*

"Damn... I stand corrected. That is awesome!"

 

[Telephius]

Just finished The Banner Saga, the feels, the feels. Also about 2/3rds the way through I realized I was playing Viking Oregon Trail.

 

[CynicismKills]

Man, Dynasty Warriors Gundam: Reborn is just way too much fun.

 

[Necronic]

So I picked up TOME 4, and I have to say its possibly the best Roguelike I have ever played, and I have clocked hundreds of hours on DCSS. Really an awesome game.

Also what's the deal with people calling platformers roguelikes? Rogue Legacy, while awesome, is not a roguelike, not in the slightest.

 

[GasBandit]

So I picked up TOME 4, and I have to say its possibly the best Roguelike I have ever played, and I have clocked hundreds of hours on DCSS. Really an awesome game.

Also what's the deal with people calling platformers roguelikes? Rogue Legacy, while awesome, is not a roguelike, not in the slightest.

I, too, have been annoyed by the recent tendency to call any game with procedural content generation and RPG elements a "roguelike."

 

[figmentPez]

Procedural Death Labyrinth hasn't caught on yet as a term.

 

[CynicismKills]

Yeah I think people just use it because it's an easy term to toss around now. Rouge Legacy is fun as hell but it's nowhere near as punishing as a real roguelike. Being able to carry over benefits/buffs/etc after a death rules it out already.

Edit: I have heard the term "rougelite" thrown around here and there, which I guess might work, but who knows.

 

[Ravenpoe]

I, too, have been annoyed by the recent tendency to call any game with procedural content generation and RPG elements a "roguelike."

I believe those are called RogueLike-Like

 

[Necronic]

Yeah I think people just use it because it's an easy term to toss around now. Rouge Legacy is fun as hell but it's nowhere near as punishing as a real roguelike. Being able to carry over benefits/buffs/etc after a death rules it out already.

Edit: I have heard the term "rougelite" thrown around here and there, which I guess might work, but who knows.

I mean really I'm ok with stuff carrying over. There's an interesting new roguelike called Dungeonmans which does this. The difficulty is part of what makes it a roguelike, but really its about it being a turn based "dungeon" crawler (dungeon is loosely defined). Usually very simply graphically (though it doesn't have to be), but with insane depth and complexity. Lots of character options. Lots of finding yourself in a situation that there is no way out of that you can see, one or two turns away from death, where you then post a screenshot of your situation to a BBS to see if anyone can help you figure out how to get out.

 

[GasBandit]

One of the more egregious examples I've seen is how they call "FTL" a roguelike simply because you die and start over in it a lot.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I thought the definition of rogue-like is that the game changes from playthrough-to-playthrough. So you never know what you'll get with each one. In which case, FTL and Rogue Legacy WOULD BE considered rogue-like.

 

[Necronic]

There are simply too many games that are too varied that are procedurally generated for that to be a good definition. That said I almost would consider FTL a roguelike. I think it has to do with how itemization works. Hm. Maybe I just don't know how to define it either.

ed: Google is my friend. I like their definition:

Roguelike is a sub-genre of role-playing video games, characterized by procedural level generation, turn-based gameplay, tile-based graphics and permanent death, and typically based on a high fantasy narrative setting.

 

[figmentPez]

One of the more egregious examples I've seen is how they call "FTL" a roguelike simply because you die and start over in it a lot.

Did you get pissed when people called Borderlands "Diablo with guns"? Games are complex things, and the terminology is still growing. Most people can't agree on what the essential elements of a Rogue-like are, so the bare minimum of random world generation, with a new world generated on character death, is what gets thrown around a lot. I don't see what the huge problem is. These games do have some elements in common with Rogue, not a lot, but enough to mean something to most people.

 

[GasBandit]

Did you get pissed when people called Borderlands "Diablo with guns"? Games are complex things, and the terminology is still growing. Most people can't agree on what the essential elements of a Rogue-like are, so the bare minimum of random world generation, with a new world generated on character death, is what gets thrown around a lot. I don't see what the huge problem is. These games do have some elements in common with Rogue, not a lot, but enough to mean something to most people.

The thing is, "Diablo with guns" I understand because it's trying to explain something new in an extremely simple way to a casual audience whose repertoire is limited to only mainstream titles. Rogue was definitely not "mainstream," its peak popularity was 25 years ago back when such things were purely the wheelhouse of class S+ computer nerds. To describe something as a "Roguelike" you have to be someone who knew what Rogue was, and be explaining a game TO someone who knew what Rogue was. Thus, it should be very apparent to both parties involved when a game actually isn't very much like Rogue at all.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Wouldn't Rogue-like just mean it would have some elements? It wouldn't be exactly the same?

I don't see why there needs to be such a big huff about the semantics of it, anyway.

(Then again, I'm one to talk. I've had dozens of arguments with people on here about the definition of a deus ex machina.)

 

[figmentPez]

The thing is, "Diablo with guns" I understand because it's trying to explain something new in an extremely simple way to a casual audience whose repertoire is limited to only mainstream titles. Rogue was definitely not "mainstream," its peak popularity was 25 years ago back when such things were purely the wheelhouse of class S+ computer nerds. To describe something as a "Roguelike" you have to be someone who knew what Rogue was, and be explaining a game TO someone who knew what Rogue was. Thus, it should be very apparent to both parties involved when a game actually isn't very much like Rogue at all.

Yeah, because people have to be familar with Podunk, NY in order to know what someone means when they call a place a podunk town. Right or wrong, if the term "Roguelike" gets used in enough reviews, commentary and other media, then people are going to be familiar with it, even if they have no idea that "Rogue" is a specific game. It's one of those quirks of language that words mean what they're used to mean, and people don't have to be aware of their etymology to use them.

 

[GasBandit]

Yeah, because people have to be familar with Podunk, NY in order to know what someone means when they call a place a podunk town. Right or wrong, if the term "Roguelike" gets used in enough reviews, commentary and other media, then people are going to be familiar with it, even if they have no idea that "Rogue" is a specific game. It's one of those quirks of language that words mean what they're used to mean, and people don't have to be aware of their etymology to use them.

And next thing you know, literally and figuratively mean the same thing.

It's like, if I describe a curve with only one peak as sinusoidal, if enough people copy my wrong definition, that makes it ok by virtue of argumenum ad populum. I mean, hey, a sinusoid has peaks, this has a peak, it's like a sinusoid!

 

[figmentPez]

And next thing you know, literally and figuratively mean the same thing.

It's like, if I describe a curve with only one peak as sinusoidal, if enough people copy my wrong definition, that makes it ok by virtue of argumenum ad populum. I mean, hey, a sinusoid has peaks, this has a peak, it's like a sinusoid!

Yeah, language is stupid like that. Still, your examples are both cases where the word has a definite and established meaning, and the way they're being misused also has a definite and established word that could be used properly instead. If the people misusing them picked up a dictionary, or other reference book, they would easily find descriptions of how the words are used. Especially when it comes to an organized structure like the international standards used for math.

However, there is no authority who has dictated how "roguelike" is to be used, and there is no definitive term to be used to describe Binding of Isaac, FTL, Rogue Legacy, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, etc. I certainly haven't heard you suggest an alternate term.

 

[GasBandit]

Yeah, language is stupid like that. Still, your examples are both cases where the word has a definite and established meaning, and the way they're being misused also has a definite and established word that could be used properly instead. If the people misusing them picked up a dictionary, or other reference book, they would easily find descriptions of how the words are used. Especially when it comes to an organized structure like the international standards used for math.

However, there is no authority who has dictated how "roguelike" is to be used, and there is no definitive term to be used to describe Binding of Isaac, FTL, Rogue Legacy, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, etc. I certainly haven't heard you suggest an alternate term.

I've only played one of those games (FTL), so I'm not in a position to gauge the applicability of the term to the others or craft a "better" term for them as a whole. You know what game reminds me more of Rogue than FTL though? Diablo. Despite it not being turn-based, or necessarily having permadeath, diablo and its sequels and spinoffs seem more like the experience of playing Rogue, Moria, or Angband (the original Rogue-likes). High fantasy procedurally generated unexplored combat venues which involve RPG elements such as leveling up and improving equipment along the way. Diablo was the heir to Rogue, in the same way that Supreme Commander was the heir to Total Annihilation. Hell, do you remember an ooooooold windows game called Castle of the Winds (ironically published by Epic Megagames, how long was that road from chintzy shareware to Gears of War)? That was basically a GUI Rogue port by another name.

Really, how low is the threshold to being similar enough? The zombie enemies are procedurally generated in Left 4 Dead and you upgrade weapons along the way... does that make it a Roguelike?

 

[AshburnerX]

If your definition of a Roguelike is so narrowly defined that is has to be the same genre of game (high fantasy), you've already failed. That's like saying a comedy can only be set in 1920's Chicago.

That said, about the only one that comes close to Rogue-ness are Binding of Isaac and FTL. Their randomness is entirely what decides if you live or die. To me, that is what the deciding factor is.

 

[GasBandit]

If your definition of a Roguelike is so narrowly defined that is has to be the same genre of game (high fantasy), you've already failed. That's like saying a comedy can only be set in 1920's Chicago.

That said, about the only one that comes close to Rogue-ness are Binding of Isaac and FTL. Their randomness is entirely what decides if you live or die. To me, that is what the deciding factor is.

I wasn't defining it, I was listing the similarities between Diablo and Rogue.

 

[figmentPez]

Really, how low is the threshold to being similar enough? The zombie enemies are procedurally generated in Left 4 Dead and you upgrade weapons along the way... does that make it a Roguelike?

The threshold is "is it easier to compare this game to the known aspects of a roguelike, than it is to compare it to another genre". With L4D, it's easiest to compare it to other co-op shooters. It's few commonalities with a roguelike game are outweighed by those aspects already being present in many FPS games.

Whereas, Binding of Issac, despite not being turn based, has a lot more in common with roguelike games than it does any other genre. It's high difficultly level, permadeath, randomly generated levels, potions (pills) that have to be identified each run-through (and can be beneficial or harmful), descent into a dungeon, wide variety of character upgrades, interaction with shops and other level features, etc. It's a cross between Legend of Zelda and Rogue, with very little from other genres.

 

[GasBandit]

The threshold is "is it easier to compare this game to the known aspects of a roguelike, than it is to compare it to another genre". With L4D, it's easiest to compare it to other co-op shooters. It's few commonalities with a roguelike game are outweighed those aspects already being present in many FPS games.

Whereas, Binding of Issac, despite not being turn based, has a lot more in common with roguelike games than it does any other genre. It's high difficultly level, permadeath, randomly generated levels, potions (pills) that have to be identified each run-through (and can be beneficial or harmful), descent into a dungeon, wide variety of character upgrades, interaction with shops and other level features, etc. It's a cross between Legend of Zelda and Rogue, with very little from other genres.

I personally haven't played Binding of Isaac, though I've heard good things.

 

[Bowielee]

*Pulls pin*

METROIDVANIA

*runs away*

 

[CynicismKills]

*Pulls pin*

METROIDVANIA

*runs away*

Really? This seems pretty easy to me, considering the term didn't really come into play until SotN and Super Metroid started drawing comparisons. Generally I've always figured if there's skill/ability item collection and backtracking to open new areas/secrets with new powers, that's pretty much it. Castlevania has RPG elements, but Metroid doesn't (levels, stats, etc). The most basic similarities are powerup collection and backtracking to previously inaccessible areas. They don't need to be 2D, as Metroid Prime still kept the foundations there while shifting the perspective, and (I think it was) Portrait of Ruin even experimented swapping your controlled character as opposed to the more isolationist approach of the Metroid games (though even this changed as the series progressed).[DOUBLEPOST=1404779959,1404779640][/DOUBLEPOST]I think the issue is a similar one to that of music. The medium has expanded and experimented enough that new genres, and thus sub-genres, emerge. While that isn't necessarily a problem, people tend to form very strict opinions on what constitutes the categorization of said genres. This can't be metal because they use this instrument, so it's folk metal. That's not just pop, they use this type of chord progression and sampling, so it's synthpop. That's not a rougelike, there's no turn-based system, so it's something else. That's not a Metroidvania, it's 3D, so it's this.

It gets to a point that there's so many stipulations you have to come up with yet another sub-genre, and the whole idea of categories becomes a big, messy joke. The stringent rules people put on certain genres are just making it harder to categorize, and thus suggest, new types of games for people to play. It's silly, really.

 

[Bowielee]

So, back on topic, I've been playing a lot of Fates Forever for the iPad. I never thought that I would like a MOBA on a tablet, but it's super fun and the controls are really intuitive.

 

[figmentPez]

*Pulls pin*

METROIDVANIA

*runs away*

Meh, I think it's perfectly reasonable to call a game like Batman: Arkham Asylum a Metroidvania. Just wait until I start calling X-Men Legends a Diablo-like...