Thought experiment

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How is that exactly a non-sequitor?[DOUBLEPOST=1347147067][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, this has clearly moved from a thought experiment (if it actually ever was one) to an atheism vs theism pissing match, so I'm out.
Well, let's be fair. We knew this thread would do that in the beginning, because all threads of this kind follow that same pattern.

But if we knew what it was going to do all along, did it ever have free will?
 
Nice.

So, Bob. If, of course, I may call you Bob.

Do you have a family? Father? Mother? Statistically, it's quite probable, I mean.

If you do, I ask you two questions:

1. Do you love them?

and

2. Prove it.

Until such time as you can provide the answers to those questions adequately - not just to me, but to the entire populace - you're not changing anyone's mind.

Least of all mine.
I've had the love proof question posed to me before.

My answer is that love involves two "real" beings that reciprocate that feeling towards each other. Love is a human emotion with no definition, you might as well ask me to define consciousness. What I do know is I get a response back from the people I do love. There's an interaction. If someone says they love God, how do they know they're getting loved back. You see the key element missing?
 
You know what? I'm going to bow out of this due to the Yarborough Maxim:

"Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get covered with mud, but the pig will enjoy it."
 
If I've learned anything its that if God made the universe and does exist, you just need to be possessed by a magic half demon/angel comet baby and become best friends with a vampire in order to get him to notice you. That's what I believe about god anyway. ALL HAIL ST. ENNIS!

And yeah if he did make the universe no way he'd give a shit. We would basically be just a game of Sims to him.
 
And yeah if he did make the universe no way he'd give a shit. We would basically be just a game of Sims to him.
Have you ever made anything? Like model airplanes, paintings, or whatever? You care about what you've made. At least anybody I've met who likes doing such does.
 
Have you ever made anything? Like model airplanes, paintings, or whatever? You care about what you've made. At least anybody I've met who likes doing such does.
Yes, but keep in mind that not all artists DO like their work. Some artists grow to resent there creations or resent them from the start. And if this guy existed, I say he just doesn't care. Least how I see it.
 
Have you ever made anything? Like model airplanes, paintings, or whatever? You care about what you've made. At least anybody I've met who likes doing such does.

That's assuming God's not an asshole. Given his track record of creating people just so they can go to hell, killing off mass amounts of people, testing people in various inhumane ways, and not doing anything to help protect the most innocent of his creations, I'd say he's a douche.
 
Have you ever made anything? Like model airplanes, paintings, or whatever? You care about what you've made. At least anybody I've met who likes doing such does.
It depends, I suppose, on the amount of talent and effort invested. I make thousands of skin cells daily, but care little for any of them. They are all intricate pieces of work, but I would call none of them my chrostith.

--Patrick
 
Become Jewish. Hell lasts for a year at most.
Or at least read some decent theological writers and try to understand the biblical concept beyond what pop-culture and maybe a random church visit or street preacher screaming at the top of his lungs seems to have given people.
 
I am not sure if there is a god, but I sure as hell no he has no effect on my life. There's no mystical force that controls my destiny.
 
I am not sure if there is a god, but I sure as hell no he has no effect on my life. There's no mystical force that controls my destiny.
No, just physical forces.

I'm a staunch determinist in the scientific sense. Basically it means that I don't really think free will is a real thing, but rather a social concept that is a mechanism by which we can psychologically justify our actions.

But that's just me.
 

Necronic

Staff member
My point is that I've never understood why the existence of physical laws precludes the potential for their divinity, in fact I think there's a case for the opposite. When you are making a program you design it to follow a system of rules, the goal being ultimately to have a system that is self-sufficiently capable of withstanding any input within it's parameters. Why would God design the universe any differently? What is logical to me is that, if God created the universe, he would create it with a system of physical laws that were complex enough to allow for the diversity and expansion that the universe has, but also simple enough to be reduced down to singular fundamental theorems.

The search for universal field theory could simply be another name for the search for god.

To say that physical laws allow us to explain the existence of a universe without god misunderstands the potential for those laws themselves to be our perception of god's work. And honestly, anyone who has studied much science can see the incredible complexity and yet beautiful simplicity that lies behind the working of the universe. I'm not saying that it's proof of god, but it doesn't disprove him.
 
I'm not saying that it's proof of god, but it doesn't disprove him.
By the same token, I'm not saying there is no God, just that proof of God's existence has not been scientifically verified. The fact that He has not yet been scientifically verified neither proves nor disproves His existence, and the very act of trying to do either will meet with certain fundamental challenges that may make it impossible to reach a definitive conclusion in either direction.

--Patrick
 
Why hasn't anyone pointed out I made a Star Wars reference? Was it too subtle?


Any way while I could(and that's a big could) believe someone would make the universe maintaining it is another thing all together. And even if the angels are made to help maintain it, something as complicated as atomic energy clinging together to create atoms, those atoms clinging together to make molecules, those molecules clinging together to make constructs and so and so on is far too big to control in my opinion. Every single instance, every single planet, every single molecule under one maybe a few beings control? Its just unfathomable to me.
 
Hahah. But even so the idea of anything to me having unlimited power just can't exist to me. If god does exist he would most likely have actual limits, and would most likely be able to die. I cannot believe that a single being would be able to be every where at once without going insane. Its the idea of utmost perfection that bothers me the most.
 

Necronic

Staff member
I can understand that. At my core I'm a Taoist. I believe that there is a fundamental truth/god in the universe, but it's being is so vast, infinite, and perfect, that it is impossible for me to actually concieve. I don't believe that an infinite being can actually be concieved/understood by a finite being. It's like the head of the Ouroboros trying to concieve of it's whole body. It's a paradox, as we are part of the infinite, but only an infinitessimal part of it.

So, you know, that's why Taoists say that the Tao that can be spoken of is not the True Tao.
 
I've been meaning to research Tao. I'm a big fan of Journey to the West and love the mythology from it.

Going old Testament god, one concept I've always found funny is how he said "Worship no gods before me, for I am a Jealous god." He said that there were gods "before" him. Saying that he isn't the original god. Also I read from the 50 things your not supposed to know books, that apparently "Jealous" is god's actual name. Like how he said he is a "Jealous god". That is a trip. So the god in Old and New Testaments probably didn't create the universe and is just some magic guy in the sky. That is how I would believe god to be, not the all knowing creator of the universe who controls everything, but a magical being who protects those that worship him. This is more believable to me, especially how there could be more than one god akin to the Greek Olympian deities or the Japanese kami, or the mish-mash of native American spirits that I forget.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Well, you have to understand that the Bible was not just a religious text, it was also a sales pitch. The world was heavily polytheistic at the time, and monotheism was effectively unheard of. In many places in the Old Testament there are hints at the defeat and death of the polytheistic deities from before.

In Genesis it talks about God creating the heaven and the earth and the seas etc. In the original Hebrew the word used for the sea is (I believe) the same as for a contemporary oceanic god. By co-opting this god as a non-divine creation of God you are selling monotheism.

In fact, when you really go back, the Abrahamic god was actually a deity with polytheistic roots (Summerian I believe), and could be thought of back in the early days of Christianity/Judaism as more of a Henotheistic deity (one God with many faces/minor deities below him). So, from their perspective, there was this kind of Deity Royal Rumble and the Christian God came out on top (or had actually always been on top but was presenting himself differently before).

I'm telling you, learning Christian history is fascinating and I think everyone should do it.

As for Taoism, it's hard to learn/teach, but if I may give you one bit of advice it's this: Ignore the mythology. The mythology is meaningless and is generally local folklore that was tacked on over time. I mean, the mythology is cool, no doubt (they have a monkey god ffs), but it really has nothing to do with the religion.
 
Going old Testament god, one concept I've always found funny is how he said "Worship no gods before me, for I am a Jealous god." He said that there were gods "before" him. Saying that he isn't the original god.
No, he's saying not to worship any gods other than him. The commandment is "You shall have no other gods before me", or alternatively "You must not have any other god but me" or any other translation that says to not worship any god other than him.
 
I'm pretty sure the translation is "Thous shalt not worship any gods before me" implying there were gods made before him, but that is just one interpretation. It is incredibly debatable.

Necronic Ignore the mythology, hmmmmmmmmm. I could use that my story. And a deity rumble? That sounds freakin sweet! I am also using that thank you.
 
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