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http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/11/09/libya.jihadi.code/index.html

VERY interesting article. Basically it talks about how Muslims are starting to realize that terrorism is counterproductive and targeting civilians is wrong.

Not sure what kind of an impact this will have because of splinter factions and the like, but it's a step forward.

As long as leaders in the Arab world can organize howling mobs in the streets over a teddy bear, nothing will change. It's in their best interest to keep the masses distracted by keeping them in a permanent state of righteous outrage over the infidels and Israel. That way they don't have to deal with the real problems their countries face.

So...don't help those in the OP and turn our backs on everyone? You don't think this is a start? It's not a huge sweeping change that will do anything. We need these minor victories to increment the changes.

I did not say that. I said it's in the best interest of the Arab ruling class to keep the status quo. To keep the masses ignorant of the wider world and in a perpetual religious frenzy. A minister got caught with his hand in the till? Israel's fault. Some prince took a few to many liberties with a shopkeeper's daughter? Look over there! Some foreigner schoolteacher named the class teddy bear after the prophet!

The leaders who call us "allies" when it suits them are more than willing to stab us in that back if it keeps them in power. They may cluck their tongues in false sympathy after it's all over, but who do you think is out there whispering "jihad" in the streets?

Until we are no longer seen as the cause of the Arab world's problems, it's best to support actions like this as quietly as possible, lest it is dismissed as a "zionist plot".

DarkAudit said:

As long as leaders in the Arab world can organize howling mobs in the streets over a teddy bear, nothing will change. It's in their best interest to keep the masses distracted by keeping them in a permanent state of righteous outrage over the infidels and Israel. That way they don't have to deal with the real problems their countries face.

Click to expand...

Wait...DA and GB agree on something?

I'm not entirely sure what you guys mean by "the Arab world." I mean, it comes across as a rather sweeping generalization.

This isn't an attempt to dismiss your argument. I'm just wondering which groups you think are benefiting from religious outrage, and what problems the outrage allows the groups to overlook.

Soliloquy said:

I'm not entirely sure what you guys mean by "the Arab world." I mean, it comes across as a rather sweeping generalization.

This isn't an attempt to dismiss your argument. I'm just wondering which groups you think are benefiting from religious outrage, and what problems the outrage allows the groups to overlook.

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From North Africa all the way to Pakistan, you'll see those regimes are regarded as some of the most corrupt and/or tyrannical in the world. It's the people in power who want to see things staying just the way they are. If they can keep the general populace up in arms about external threats, real or imagined, then the people won't notice how downtrodden they are at home. "The West" and it's "sins" is a convenient scapegoat. "Israel" even more so.

Especially in Saudi Arabia, the ruling factions have decided the best way to deal with the more radical of the religious factions is to pay them to go away. They're encouraged to redirect the outrage towards external targets in exchange for being mostly left alone by the state security forces.

People will continue to be manipulated, and folks will exploit the disenfranchised and the easily duped. Fear is a powerful tool.

When matyrdom is condemned and not glorified by some of these kooks, I'll start to get optimistic.

DarkAudit;296178][quote=Soliloquy said:

I'm not entirely sure what you guys mean by "the Arab world." I mean, it comes across as a rather sweeping generalization.

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From North Africa all the way to Pakistan, [/QUOTE]
Massively sweeping!

Oman? Yemen? Egypt? Bahrain? Qatar? Kuwait? the United Arab Emirates? Jordan? These places are really some of the most corrupt and tyrannical nations on Earth? Really? I mean, you're including Turkey, a secular democratic nation, there.

And here's the biggest thing. I already named most of the nations in the Middle East. The only others are Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Israel. Now, of all the nation I've mentioned in this post, what's the ratio of horribly corrupt or tyrannical nations compared to decent countries with the normal flaws that even the "best" countries of the West suffer from?

Gruebeard;296399][quote=DarkAudit;296178][quote=Soliloquy said:

I'm not entirely sure what you guys mean by \"the Arab world.\" I mean, it comes across as a rather sweeping generalization.

Click to expand...

From North Africa all the way to Pakistan, [/QUOTE]
Massively sweeping!

Oman? Yemen? Egypt? Bahrain? Qatar? Kuwait? the United Arab Emirates? Jordan? These places are really some of the most corrupt and tyrannical nations on Earth? Really? I mean, you're including Turkey, a secular democratic nation, there.

And here's the biggest thing. I already named most of the nations in the Middle East. The only others are Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Israel. Now, of all the nation I've mentioned in this post, what's the ratio of horribly corrupt or tyrannical nations compared to decent countries with the normal flaws that even the "best" countries of the West suffer from?[/QUOTE]

Yep, yep, yep, yep, and yep. The lot. Turkey not so much. They're not Arab. But yes. Not necessarily outright oppression, but I stand by my statement. And international watchdog organizations back me up. Most of the nations you mention are at or near the bottom of the list.

Huh...all things considered, I thought Turkey was our staunch ally and friend in that region. You are right though, Turkey's mainly inhabited by ethnic Turks and Kurds + Armenians and Greeks.

I'd hesitate to include Turkey in that list simply because as already mentioned, they're a completely secular democracy, they were a founding UN nation and are right now poised to join the EU. In the eyes of the 'Arab' world, Turkey's a western sell-out and not a place to find a military friend.

And for the most part, Turkey doesn't turn into a howling mob at the mere mention of the word Israel.

Well DA, Turkey doesn't really care about Israel for the most part. Again, they're not Arab, so there's no feeling of stolen territory on their part. Besides, Turkey had it's own skeletons for having to deal with the outing of the Armenian genocide.

Found this out too: Turkey's apparently the electronics giant of the EU

DarkAudit said:

And international watchdog organizations back me up. Most of the nations you mention are at or near the bottom of the list.

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No they're not.

Only Iraq (178), Syria (147) Iran (141), Yemen (also 141), Egypt (115) and Lebanon (102) fall on the second half of that list . . . though I'd be hard pressed to call 115 and 102 out of 180 total as near the bottom.

So that's 4 countries (And only 3 that I actually mentioned as I forgot Syria originally), and I had listed 12, not including Israel and Turkey here.

4 out of 13 is not most.

Wait, what? Are you calling Israel an Arab country now?

No. That's why I'm not counting it.

Although, 20% of Israel is Arab so maybe it is. You seem to think that 1/4 = most, so maybe 1/5 is too.

DarkAudit said:

And for the most part, Turkey doesn't turn into a howling mob at the mere mention of the word Israel.

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They do, however, make us fly the long way around between germany and iraq because they don't like our support of Kurds.