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The Man of Steel.

Aug 4, 2011#1

Espy

Henry Cavill is Superman: The Man of Steel

My first thought: Pretty badass.

Not a huge fan of the material, seems to be the go-to look for superhero costumes but alright.

So far the biggest NERDRAAAAAAGE topic on the AICN site is that he "has to much hair".

Discuss. Nitpick. Nerdrage. Nergasm. Whatever does it for you.

Aug 4, 2011#2

Covar

Cape is too long.

Aug 4, 2011#3

ThatNickGuy

Still not crazy about the raised "S" but it works a LOT better here than it did in Returns, so that's a really, really minor nitpick complaint.

Aside from that? FUCKING AWESOME. Suddenly, my hopes for this movie skyrocketed. Shame it won't be released until 2013, after the world ends.

Aug 4, 2011#4

Dave

He's able to walk.

Aug 4, 2011#5

Espy

ThatNickGuy said:
Still not crazy about the raised "S" but it works a LOT better here than it did in Returns, so that's a really, really minor nitpick complaint.

Yeah, I've never cared for that. Why do they keep trying to do that? It just looks... plasticky and slapped on whenever they do it. Again, totally minor but it's always made me WTF guys?

ThatNickGuy said:
Aside from that? FUCKING AWESOME. Suddenly, my hopes for this movie skyrocketed. Shame it won't be released until 2013, after the world ends.

Well, if there is one thing Snyder knows how to do it's make things look awesome. In the end it's going to be how good the story is though. Hopefully it's not about Superman vs. The Devious Real Estate Agent again

Added at: 10:30

Dave said:
He's able to walk.

What.... did you expect?

Aug 4, 2011#6

strawman

Dave said:
He's able to walk.

Save it for comedy night, bucko.

Aug 4, 2011#7

ThatNickGuy

Dave said:
He's able to walk.

Sorry man, but as a fan of Reeve, I don't like this.

Aug 4, 2011#8

Espy

Oh.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHH.

I just got it.

Aug 4, 2011#9

ThatNickGuy

Another slight negative about the costume: the scales. I'm cetain that, seen in action and such, we'll barely even notice them, but in a big, high quality pic, it's really noticeable.

Then again, they had a similar thing going for Superman Returns and like I said, once it was in action, I barely noticed it.

Aug 4, 2011#10

Dave

ThatNickGuy said:
Sorry man, but as a fan of Reeve, I don't like this.

I was never a Reeves fan. As I always say, he wasn't a hero. He was a mediocre actor who can't ride a horse.

Aug 4, 2011#11

ThatNickGuy

Instead of blowing up, I'm just gonna walk away. Won't even dignify that with an answer.

Aug 4, 2011#12

Dave

ThatNickGuy said:
Instead of blowing up, I'm just gonna walk away. Won't even dignify that with an answer.

I'm sorry. I'll stop.

Aug 4, 2011#13

strawman

Regarding superhero costumes, I don't undersstand why he doesn't make it more other-worldly. Maybe it should sparkle in the sun. He can create diamonds from coal dust, so all he has to do is mount a billion teeny little diamonds into it, and he can become an honorary cullen.

Alternately, he has no problem bending metal - he should just wear suits out of skin tight titanium. Show people he is this powerful all the time.

Instead he's wrapped in a skin tight rubber suit?

What is he saying?

"My most important power, which I desire to display all the time, is the ability to not squeek when I'm swimming in sweat, wearing a rubber suit."

Aug 4, 2011#14

Dave

stienman said:
Regarding superhero costumes, I don't undersstand why he doesn't make it more other-worldly. Maybe it should sparkle in the sun. He can create diamonds from coal dust, so all he has to do is mount a billion teeny little diamonds into it, and he can become an honorary cullen.

Alternately, he has no problem bending metal - he should just wear suits out of skin tight titanium. Show people he is this powerful all the time.

Instead he's wrapped in a skin tight rubber suit?

The metal would be difficult to hide under his Clark Kent clothes.

Aug 4, 2011#15

strawman

Dave said:
The metal would be difficult to hide under his Clark Kent clothes.

Skin tight - as in it would be, to him, as flexible and thin as rubber is to us.

Aug 4, 2011#16

Gryfter

Looks good, I liked Cavill in the Tudors, he should make a good Sups/Kent. My only concern is that it's Snyder so everything will be in slow motion which I have to be honest, is getting a little tiresome.

Aug 4, 2011#17

Espy

Gryfter said:
Looks good, I liked Cavill in the Tudors, he should make a good Sups/Kent. My only concern is that it's Snyder so everything will be in slow motion which I have to be honest, is getting a little tiresome.

I hear for this movie he wants to surpass all previous slo-mo records so he's going to try and do 85% of the movie in slo-mo. BECAUSE HE CAN.

Aug 4, 2011#18

Covar

Don't forget about the pointless gratuitous sex scene. Which will also be in slo-mo.

Aug 4, 2011#19

Fun Size

stienman said:
Skin tight - as in it would be, to him, as flexible and thin as rubber is to us.

Would skin tight titanium re-shrink after an awkward super erection? I think not.

Aug 4, 2011#20

Espy

Covar said:
Don't forget about the pointless gratuitous sex scene. Which will also be in slo-mo.

Oh yeah, Snyder does love his doggy style sex scenes that go on long enough to get weird.

Aug 4, 2011#21

Cheesy1

Great, now I'm hearing the old Superman movie theme in my head, only in super slo-mo.

Aug 4, 2011#22

Shegokigo

I'll take Snyder Slow-Mo scenes ANY day over Bay blurry fight scenes.

It's hard to get action scenes done well, the slo-mo sex scenes though? Yeah I could do without. I like my porn in my porn, not in my action films. Though if I remember correctly in Watchmen it was coinciding with some action scenes at the same time? I might be completely wrong on that.

Aug 4, 2011#23

ThatNickGuy

Watchmen? No, it was just the softcore porn scene.

But you're right. Slow-mo's better than Bay's "two blurry globs smashing up against each other"

Aug 4, 2011#24

Shegokigo

Well I've ALWAYS loved Supes. Comics, Movies, novels, etc. Yes I even liked Returns. I will be happy to sit in my theatre and watch this in 2D.

Aug 4, 2011#25

Espy

Oh, I'll take slo-mo Snyder over blur-mo Bay any day of the week. I don't even mind a little slo-mo if it's used well. It's a trick thats fun to use Mr. Snyder, not a filmmakers tool that should be always considered for every scene.

Aug 4, 2011#26

ThatNickGuy

You and me, Sheg, are probably the only two people on the planet that actually liked Returns.

On the bright side, since this is going to be more family-friendly that Snyder's other works, we won't have to worry about some stupid slow-motion softcore porn sex scene.

Aug 4, 2011#27

Dave

I actually never saw Returns so I can't say. I've seen only 1 scene from it and it was where Lex Luthor stabbed Superman with Kryptonite. As far as I know, this had never been done before. Much better Lex Luthor than just trying to steal pies.

Aug 4, 2011#28

Espy

I enjoyed a lot of Returns. Routh looked AMAZING. Their were not enough scenes with him as Kent and he had a very oddly small speaking role for the main character (seriously, count how many times he talks in the movie... it's weird). My biggest issues weren't even the Luthor as Evil Real Estate Agent bit, which I could get past if I must, despite my desire for more action, but rather Singers seemingly complete inability to understand who Superman was and who he was not. He got it right in the shuttle scene. That is Superman. He got it wrong with deadbeat dad and stalker Supes. That is... I don't know what that was but it wasn't Superman.
Added at: 12:31
Also Spacey was a great Luthor.

Aug 4, 2011#29

Covar

Hey I enjoyed Returns. When I saw it as a kid and it was just called Superman the Movie.

Aug 4, 2011#30

figmentPez

Once again I like Hawk's vision of superheroes better:

To quote: "Trimmed his hair, Made the costume less shiny, Decreased the embossed chest shield, Color correction"

Aug 4, 2011#31

filmfanatic

Espy said:
Well, if there is one thing Snyder knows how to do it's make things look awesome. In the end it's going to be how good the story is though. Hopefully it's not about Superman vs. The Devious Real Estate Agent again

Don't wworry. In terms of villains, we're getting Michael Shannon as General Zod.

Aug 6, 2011#32

Timmus

Espy said:
I hear for this movie he wants to surpass all previous slo-mo records so he's going to try and do 85% of the movie in slo-mo. BECAUSE HE CAN.

The image we're talking about isn't a still photo at all. It's actual footage.

Aug 6, 2011#33

Espy

Timmus said:
The image we're talking about isn't a still photo at all. It's actual footage.

It's actually 10 minutes of the film.

Aug 6, 2011#34

Frankie Williamson

Why all the fucking Zod? I know Luthor's been done to death in the movies (though never in the awesome Clancy Brown way) but Superman has tons of actual interesting villains. Do we need to retread past movies so closely in reboots? At least Spider-Man's reboot is giving us a villain we've never seen on film.

Aug 6, 2011#35

strawman

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD

Aug 6, 2011#36

ThatNickGuy

Frankie Williamson said:
Why all the fucking Zod? I know Luthor's been done to death in the movies (though never in the awesome Clancy Brown way) but Superman has tons of actual interesting villains. Do we need to retread past movies so closely in reboots? At least Spider-Man's reboot is giving us a villain we've never seen on film.

*shrug* Those are probably the two biggest villains in Superman mythos. Certainly the two that the mainstream film audience is most familiar with. Mind you, I'm not arguing.

Personally, I'd love to see Braniac, Bizarro or Metallo.

Bizarro could be like a full-length version of the only good part of Superman III (where he fights himself). Treat it like a horror movie or something. Although, Bizarro being a clone, you'd probably have to have some kind of motivating force that clones him. Which likely means Luthor. At least then, he'd be more a secondary character.

Braniac? Alien invasion movie, done with a superhero twist. Nuff said.

Metallo, I'm not sure if you could get a full movie out of him. I've always felt he would make a great bodyguard for Luthor (I know, I keep bringing him up. Luthor just fits perfectly with the Superman mythos. There's a reason he keeps popping up in different mediums).

Aug 6, 2011#37

figmentPez

ThatNickGuy said:
Although, Bizarro being a clone, you'd probably have to have some kind of motivating force that clones him. Which likely means Luthor.

Or Cadmus. I'd love to see that storyline hit the big screen.

Aug 6, 2011#38

ThatNickGuy

Oh HELL yes. You could have all kinds of insane, Kirby-inspired sciencey stuff. Heck, you could do a cloning trilogy there. Start with Cadmus and Bizarro. Maybe end it with Doomsday? Or the second one could be Doomsday, kill 'em in the end and have his return in the third.

Aug 6, 2011#39

Vagabond

So I guess Superman doesn't have eyebrows anymore?

That's cool.

Aug 7, 2011#40

ThatNickGuy

No eyebrows = BIG BOX OFFICE!
(Note: Nick drunk. Stupidity to follow.)

Aug 7, 2011#41

bhamv3

For some reason I really want to see Doomsday in a Superman movie, which is weird because he's really not that interesting.

Aug 7, 2011#42

Norris

bhamv3 said:
For some reason I really want to see Doomsday in a Superman movie, which is weird because he's really not that interesting.

I've read (I think) two unused movies scripts from the mid-90's that featured Doomsday. And yeah, he literally shows up for one big fight scene and then is gone. Which has the ability to be epic, if handled well.

As an aside, those scripts also featured really fucking random Batman cameos. In an earlier draft, Batman literally swings down from a roof, joins the funeral procession as pall bearer, leaves his glove on Superman's coffin inside his tomb, and leaves. All without saying a word or any explanation whatsoever. In Kevin Smith's draft, he hijacks the video screens at the funeral to give a brief eulogy. Still pretty random.

Aug 7, 2011#43

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
I've read (I think) two unused movies scripts from the mid-90's that featured Doomsday. And yeah, he literally shows up for one big fight scene and then is gone. Which has the ability to be epic, if handled well.

As an aside, those scripts also featured really fucking random Batman cameos. In an earlier draft, Batman literally swings down from a roof, joins the funeral procession as pall bearer, leaves his glove on Superman's coffin inside his tomb, and leaves. All without saying a word or any explanation whatsoever. In Kevin Smith's draft, he hijacks the video screens at the funeral to give a brief eulogy. Still pretty random.

You really can't pull that shit in a live-action film where the series haven't crossed over before. It would've made more sense to happen in the DCAU (though they stated the Superman: Doosmday movie existed separate from the DCAU and no heroes except Superman existed) where they've already had crossovers.

Aug 7, 2011#44

sixpackshaker

Can we just get a Blue and Red Costume? Supes did not wear Ox-Blood Boots (Skinheads do) and Midnite Blue Undies.

Aug 7, 2011#45

Charlie Don't Surf

ThatNickGuy said:
Instead of blowing up, I'm just gonna walk away. Won't even dignify that with an answer.

hahahahahahahhahahahahahah

Aug 7, 2011#46

Hailey Knight

Dave said:
I was never a Reeves fan. As I always say, he wasn't a hero. He was a mediocre actor who can't ride a horse.

Leave George Reeves alone.

Aug 7, 2011#47

sixpackshaker

Quotemander Prime said:
Leave George Reeves alone.

He just could not stop a bullet.

Aug 8, 2011#48

Jax

stienman said:
"My most important power, which I desire to display all the time, is the ability to not squeek when I'm swimming in sweat, wearing a rubber suit."

Sounds like Nick's prom night?

Aug 8, 2011#49

Dave

Jax said:
Sounds like Nick's prom night?

Man yu have been lurking a while, haven't you?

Aug 9, 2011#50

Tress

Dave said:
Man yu have been lurking a while, haven't you?

Kudos to him/her. New, but s/he knows the ropes.

Aug 9, 2011#51

Jax

Well yea, what's the point of being a lurker without following all the awesome (*ahem*) people that do post?

Aug 21, 2011#52

Jay

Oooh Russell Crow is playing the part of Jor-El. I'm intrigued.

Aug 21, 2011#53

Shegokigo

I'm actually not sure how I feel about that....

Aug 21, 2011#54

Jay

It doesn't matter how you feel!

/therock

Dec 11, 2012#55

evilmike

Trailer #2 has been posted

Dec 11, 2012#56

Covar

Well that looks absolutely terrible.

Dec 11, 2012#57

Covar

I now have zero hope for this movie, especially after:

Listening to Johnathan Kent figure that letting a bus load of elementary school children die was an option to people discovering that Clark isn't from around here.

At least this movie will hopefully more than just the director masturbating to Superman 1.

Dec 11, 2012#58

Ravenpoe

Covar said:
I now have zero hope for this movie, especially after:

Listening to Johnathan Kent figure that letting a bus load of elementary school children die was an option to people discovering that Clark isn't from around here.

At least this movie will hopefully more than just the director masturbating to Superman 1.

Yeah, that's an exact 180 from the classic character. But in todays world, you can't be a super hero without daddy issues.

Dec 11, 2012#59

Covar

I can't wait for the day when Warner Brothers stops being ashamed of their super-hero properties. Then maybe we can get a good Superman movie.

Dec 11, 2012#60

sixpackshaker

They really need to stop using Snyder for everything.

Dec 11, 2012#61

Covar

Zack Snyder yea. Scott Snyder should be writing everything.

Dec 11, 2012#62

Espy

Huh. That actually looked far better than I expected. I'll be there to see if this soars or crashes.

Dec 11, 2012#63

ThatNickGuy

Well, I'm a huge Superman fan and the trailer left me...still feeling apprehensive. When the first trailer for Superman Returns was released, I was giddy like a four-year old. John Williams' score likely helped a lot.

This, however, I have to say, has left me feeling a little more confident about the movie. It'll certainly LOOK amazing because, say what you will about Synder, but he has a great cinematic eye. Regardless of what I've said about Watchmen, it looked astounding. This does, too. Just hoping they don't do all action and remember that Superman can be a great character, too. The best Superman stories are where he's morally torn, like the bus in the trailer.

Which, honestly, I don't see Pa necessarily saying, "Yes! Leave the kids to die!" I think it was more like he was saying, "I don't know? Maybe?" because I mean, seriously, when has any father ever been in that kind of situation before? Where his kid gains the powers of a god and uses it to save dozens of kids, threatening not only revealing himself to the world, but his family, who would be just as heavily scrutinized.

Dec 11, 2012#64

Covar

Clark Kent is Superman because of his parents who taught him right from wrong, and to always do the right thing. Those people when presented with "Should I have let them die" answer with "No of course not" not "Maybe, let me think about that."

Also it looks like the incredibly annoying and inaccurate Jesus comparison is present. Really wish WB and DC would just drop it already.

Dec 11, 2012#65

ThatNickGuy

Covar said:
Clark Kent is Superman because of his parents who taught him right from wrong, and to always do the right thing. Those people when presented with "Should I have let them die" answer with "No of course not" not "Maybe, let me think about that."

Like I said above, that's not how I heard it. I heard it in a "Maybe?" kind of way because of how 1) completely out of his element he is at this and 2) because of the horrors it might bring Clark and the rest of the family.

Plus, that's only a snippet of the conversation. Who's to say Pa doesn't continue on with that with a "No, of course not" very soon after? I imagine whoever cut this trailer (which wasn't Snyder because it's rarely the director) used that for the shock value of it.

Dec 11, 2012#66

Covar

ThatNickGuy said:
Like I said above, that's not how I heard it. I heard it in a "Maybe?" kind of way because of how 1) completely out of his element he is at this and 2) because of the horrors it might bring Clark and the rest of the family.

Plus, that's only a snippet of the conversation. Who's to say Pa doesn't continue on with that with a "No, of course not" very soon after? I imagine whoever cut this trailer (which wasn't Snyder because it's rarely the director) used that for the shock value of it.

I figured we'd have different opinions on this trailer.

Which is a pretty stupid thing to do for something designed to get people excited to see something. I know what you're saying about part of the conversation but considering that was what they wanted to show (which based on what presented is yet another awful Jesus metaphor) I will still criticize. They could have just as well cut a different part of the conversation, but they didn't.

Visually I'm glad to see something other than bad real estate schemes for Superman to deal with, but am not looking forward to what is going to be navy blue and dark maroon battling Grey alien ships. There's 1.5 billion reasons why Primary colors will not frighten away audiences. Suit still looks like ass, it's been said before, and there's nothing that's going to change the fact that it looks like ass.[DOUBLEPOST=1355254022][/DOUBLEPOST]How strange is it that one of the best decades for Superman was the 90s?

Dec 11, 2012#67

ThatNickGuy

Eh, I'm biased, of course. We'll just have to agree to disagree while we wait for the movie's release.

Covar said:
How strange is it that one of the best decades for Superman was the 40s?

Fixed that for ya.

Dec 11, 2012#68

Bowielee

I'm inclined to think that I'm going to hate this movie, but I'll give it a shot.

But what's my most prominent question is this.

WTF is up with the overtexturing on every single super hero who's not Batman? Why do they make them look like their wearing basketballs?

Dec 11, 2012#69

Covar

Nothing strange about the 40s. Now the 90s despite the reputation of what was popular is comics, had Superman titles rising to new heights (with a few lows sure but you can't say they weren't huge) and two successful TV shows. All this while Superman was still going around being Superman, while good chunks of DC and pretty much all of Marvel were doing their damnedest to 90's it up to the EXTREME![DOUBLEPOST=1355255112][/DOUBLEPOST]

Bowielee said:
I'm inclined to think that I'm going to hate this movie, but I'll give it a shot.

But what's my most prominent question is this.

WTF is up with the overtexturing on every single super hero who's not Batman? Why do they make them look like their wearing basketballs?

Batman's Costume's over detailed if not over textured. Just give it time and hopefully Warner Brothers will realize what Marvel Studios did, and no longer be ashamed to have characters in brightly colored tights.

Dec 11, 2012#70

sixpackshaker

Basket Balls look better on a super hero than Green and Black Bacon.

Dec 11, 2012#71

Adam

sixpackshaker said:
Basket Balls look better on a super hero than Green and Black Bacon.

BACON

Dec 11, 2012#72

North_Ranger

Wow. Pa Kent's an ass...

And not really looking forward to this, especially with the music implying some kind of a SuperJesus on screen...

Dec 11, 2012#73

Adam

North_Ranger said:
Wow. Pa Kent's an ass...

And not really looking forward to this, especially with the music implying some kind of a SuperJesus on screen...

Out of context, it's hard to determine where that conversation is going. It could go like this:

Clark turns to him and asks, "Would you have let them die?"
Jonathan, sighing and conflicted, "No."
They stare at each other, and then Clark looks out over the cornfields as the sunsets. The implication being that doing the right thing means making a sacrifice. Protecting the safety of others means jeopardizing his own. Being a shield for those who need you means being a target for those who fear you.
It sets up the only real dramatic tension for a character as powerful as Superman: that putting his powers to the best use of humanity is not the best thing for Clark. Jonathan knows this.

And Superman is a Jesus analogy.

Dec 11, 2012#74

North_Ranger

Adam said:
And Superman is a Jesus analogy.

...originally created by a pair of Jewish guys. I find some humor in that

Dec 11, 2012#75

Adam

North_Ranger said:
...originally created by a pair of Jewish guys. I find some humor in that

Jesus was created by two jewish people too..technically

Dec 11, 2012#76

Covar

No it's not. Unless I missed where God sent Jesus to earth in a last ditch effort to save his child moments before heaven was destroyed.

Dec 11, 2012#77

Bowielee

Covar said:
No it's not. Unless I missed where God sent Jesus to earth in a last ditch effort to save his child moments before heaven was destroyed.

That's why it's called a metaphor. It's not literal.

Dec 11, 2012#78

Covar

Or the fact that Jesus came to earth with a mission and a purpose. Superman came to earth to not die, and had to find his place in the world, his morality comes about because of the parents who raise him.

About the only similarity is the fact that they were both sent here as babies.[DOUBLEPOST=1355260276][/DOUBLEPOST]

Bowielee said:
That's why it's called a metaphor. It's not literal.

It's also a really terrible one.

Dec 11, 2012#79

Ravenpoe

Adam said:
BACON

AHA! You sent me those socks!

Dec 11, 2012#80

Bowielee

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Dec 11, 2012#81

Adam

Covar said:
No it's not. Unless I missed where God sent Jesus to earth in a last ditch effort to save his child moments before heaven was destroyed.

God gave the world his only Son as a guidance for us to better ourselves. The earthly parents of Superman (Martha/John) vs Jesus (Mary/Joseph) act as a guide for his earthly endeavours.

It's not just my interpretation here; a lot of this metaphor is coming right from the creators.

Dec 11, 2012#82

North_Ranger

I thought he was originally supposed to be a socialist hero beating the living crap out of wealthy landlords and poor-stomping criminals?

Dec 11, 2012#83

ThatNickGuy

He's kind of a mix of several biblical figures: Jesus, Moses, and Sampson. It's hard to deny the religious implications of his mythos because his creators had very strong ties with their Jewish families, not to mention reacting to the Nazi invasion at the same time.

In fact, there have been some studies that believe Superman was created in reaction to Jewish immigrants at the time, how they had to hide much of their true selves to "blend in" with American society, but that when they showed their true colours (in Superman's case: red, yellow, and blue), they were powerful. Given that I'm not an expert on the subject (and only got a low B- on a paper in my Comics & Cartoons class on the subject), I'm probably not giving the argument proper justice.

Dec 11, 2012#84

Bowielee

It can be argued that all superheroes are based on religion and mythology. I find it funny that some day in the far future, it may be possible that historians may think that we worshiped Batman and Superman as deities.

Dec 11, 2012#85

Far

I apologize if this offends any of our die hard superman followers but I tend to find the character boring, uninteresting and "perfect". I'm not big on his movies or how he is genereally represented in comics.

That said while I didn't have much interest from the first trailer, this one definitely has me keeping an eye out now. Take that as you will.

Dec 11, 2012#86

ThatNickGuy

*bites his tongue, resisting the urge to rant*
(Not at you directly, Far, just about the idea of Superman being boring, uninteresting, and "perfect.")

Dec 11, 2012#87

Far

I know, I imagine it's my fault as I've not been exposed to much of his media, based solely on my views of him. I tend to prefer marvel over dc usually. If you could point out some decent stuff combating my views of the character, I'd be willing to change my ways.
ThatNickGuy

Dec 11, 2012#88

Adam

Bowielee said:
It can be argued that all superheroes are based on religion and mythology. I find it funny that some day in the far future, it may be possible that historians may think that we worshiped Batman and Superman as deities.

No different than the way we think the Norse gods were worshipped. I like it! (I am concerned, however, around the deification of Star Wars)

Dec 11, 2012#89

twitchmoss

Theres plenty of stuff written about comic heroes as new variations on old mythologies and archetypes. The Justice League alone has had a whole bunch of greek pantheon-related imagery stuff in its time, DC marketing the batman/superman/wonderwoman group as "the trinity" of truth, justice and the american way, the list goes on.

Its pretty much the main focus of Kingdom Come, along with... probably most of Grant Morrisons DC work. Superman represents the ideal immigrant, in that he has taken the values of his chosen home, without sacrificing his connection to "the old country", though he has to lead a double life to do it. there's both the "old" threats, Zod, Brainiac, and what have you, and there's the threats from the new, based in fear of the different, like Luthor. Even the bottle city of kandor has some added contextual meaning behind it.

One of the 90s animated batman episodes even had a look at this kind of cyclical mythology thing, with an insane max zeus finally being brought into arkham at the end of the episode, and recognising batmans rogues gallery as his fellow "gods". Poison Ivy as Demeter, Two Face as Janus, and so on.

And then theres Kirbys fourth world.

As has been said, theres a ton of stuff about this around.
I read through Morrisons "Supergods: our world in the age of the superhero" and it was pretty damn interesting. it touches on a whole bunch of stuff, from the more myth/legend inspired stuff, to some pretty interesting history of superhero comics, until morrison goes a bit... insane, near the end. Its a little frustrating in that respect. "heres some genuinely interesting ideas on superhero mythology, and by the way, heres a story about the time I took peyote and met the beings made of light who live on the planet zog, near alpha centauri." Definitely worth a read though.

Dec 11, 2012#90

ThatNickGuy

Far said:
I know, I imagine it's my fault as I've not been exposed to much of his media, based solely on my views of him. I tend to prefer marvel over dc usually. If you could point out some decent stuff combating my views of the character, I'd be willing to change my ways.
ThatNickGuy

Maybe I'll try whipping up something tomorrow. Gotta hit the sack soon. Damn 4 AM shifts.

Dec 11, 2012#91

blotsfan

Adam said:
No different than the way we think the Norse gods were worshipped. I like it! (I am concerned, however, around the deification of Star Wars)

Psssh. Its star trek we have to worry about.

Dec 11, 2012#92

Frank

Far said:
I know, I imagine it's my fault as I've not been exposed to much of his media, based solely on my views of him. I tend to prefer marvel over dc usually. If you could point out some decent stuff combating my views of the character, I'd be willing to change my ways.
ThatNickGuy

I agree with you Far, the only Superman stories I've ever read that interested me were interesting because of the other characters in it. Such as a Shazam/Superman oneshot from years ago that was about Billy Batson's view of Superman when he was Captain Marvel.

Dec 11, 2012#93

Hailey Knight

Just watched trailer.

Much worse than I thought it would be.

Dec 12, 2012#94

bhamv3

Hmm, seems like they're going for a darker, grittier Superman a la Batman Begins and it's fitting the character approximately as well as a square peg in a round hole that happens to contain the proton beam of a particle accelerator.

Dec 12, 2012#95

KCWM

ThatNickGuy said:
Like I said above, that's not how I heard it. I heard it in a "Maybe?" kind of way because of how 1) completely out of his element he is at this and 2) because of the horrors it might bring Clark and the rest of the family.

Plus, that's only a snippet of the conversation. Who's to say Pa doesn't continue on with that with a "No, of course not" very soon after? I imagine whoever cut this trailer (which wasn't Snyder because it's rarely the director) used that for the shock value of it.

I agree with this. I took that part of the trailer as a snippet of the middle of the conversation. I like the idea that Pa Kent actually struggles with what to do when faced with something as enormous as Clark and his powers. If anything, it reflects the struggle that Clark goes through as Superman. If Clark doesn't have to think about doing the right thing and he does it BECAUSE it's the right thing, it's weak writing and uninteresting to the viewer.

It's a common complaint that Superman is too bland, too predictable, and too "perfect". He is, after all, the Boy Scout of the DC universe. The most interesting Superman stories aren't about his powers or his abilities...we already know he's pretty much a god with the yellow sun. The most interesting stories are the ones that delve into WHO Clark Kent is and how he deals with his humanity, which is alien to the alien himself.

Watching a story about who he is is what made Superman Returns a good movie to me. Yeah, watching him catch that plane or get shot in the eyeball with a smirk on his face was cool, but I was far more entertained by the idea of him yearning for a connection to his birthplace so much that he sacrifices his relationship with the woman he loves only to come back to find her with another man. Was the movie executed perfectly? No, watching him struggle with a very human situation is what makes me continue to enjoy it.

Watching the development of Clark Kent was what made Smallville and all of its faults worth watching. The show wasn't great, but the few episodes per season where we got actual development of the character and story were really good. At least, that's why I fought through all 10 seasons.

I can only hope that Man of Steel does something similar.

Dec 12, 2012#96

drawn_inward

Far said:
I know, I imagine it's my fault as I've not been exposed to much of his media, based solely on my views of him. I tend to prefer marvel over dc usually. If you could point out some decent stuff combating my views of the character, I'd be willing to change my ways.
ThatNickGuy

TNG recommended Kingdom Come for me when he had the comic recommendation thread a while back. It's a great read and has really nice illustrations. I would also like some more Supes stories. I didn't care for All Star Superman.

Dec 12, 2012#97

Espy

Yeah, I showed this trailer to my wife and she thought it looked pretty good too. She said, "So he's not going to bang some chick then run off in this one?" and I said, "Well, it's Zach Snyder so he will probably have a long slo-mo sex scene and do some serious Super-Doggy Style".

Dec 12, 2012#98

North_Ranger

Wasn't there an article a few years back that said that Superman and Lois enacting the Kryptonian Tork Beast With Two Backs would result in her gruesome death?

Dec 12, 2012#99

ThatNickGuy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Steel,_Woman_of_Kleenex

Yeah, and I hate it. Why does so much gruesome detail have to go into fictional characters? I love superheroes for their ideals, not for wanting to kill each other while having sex.

Dec 12, 2012#100

evilmike

North_Ranger said:
Wasn't there an article a few years back that said that Superman and Lois enacting the Kryptonian Tork Beast With Two Backs would result in her gruesome death?

It's a short essay by Larry Niven called "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" from his story collection "All the Myriad Ways".

I believe the entire text is available here.

Dec 12, 2012#101

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Steel,_Woman_of_Kleenex

Yeah, and I hate it. Why does so much gruesome detail have to go into fictional characters? I love superheroes for their ideals, not for wanting to kill each other while having sex.

I'm fairly certain that Niven wrote it more as a satire or joke as opposed to a serious examination of the topic.

Dec 12, 2012#102

ThatNickGuy

Norris said:
I'm fairly certain that Niven wrote it more as a satire or joke as opposed to a serious examination of the topic.

Maybe. Maybe not. But now it's been out there for decades, it's pretty much considered canon. I've had a friend who always brings it up.

Dec 12, 2012#103

R

Raemon777

That's.... honestly a pretty weird thing to be upset about.

First of all, it's almost definitely not canon. Are there *any* main-line superman comics that feature it? I'm pretty sure he's just canonically married to Lois or has been at some point. It's a random joke that got traction. Lots of things have sex-related jokes that spring up around them. In fact, basically literally everything ever.

I think it *has* been used in some non-main versions (there's a smallville episode where Clark is *afraid* of something bad happening, my assumption is that eventually he develops better control/assurance).

If it were completely canon, it'd just mean Superman is a virgin, which would frankly be thematically appropriate since he's a sort of Jesus metaphor to begin with.

Dec 12, 2012#104

ThatNickGuy

Eh, I guess it's sort of like the "Aquaman is useless" and "Batman and Robin are totally gay" jokes. I've heard them so much over the years that I'm just sick of it.

As far as Superman being a virgin, I don't go with that. He might be a moral guy, but he's not meant to be a puritanical child, either. That works more for Captain Marvel or something. It's like in the first Superman movie, where him and Lois are totally flirting ("Yes, I like pink very much.") and he says Peter Pan's a fairy tale. Superman's meant to be a more adult character.

Dec 12, 2012#105

Chad Sexington

Raemon777 said:
If it were completely canon, it'd just mean Superman is a virgin, which would frankly be thematically appropriate since he's a sort of Jesus metaphor to begin with.

Unrelated to the debate at hand, but I've always seen it more of a Moses thing. Sent away by his parents, raised by another culture, leads people to freedom...

Dec 12, 2012#106

strawman

Chad Sexington said:
Unrelated to the debate at hand, but I've always seen it more of a Moses thing. Sent away by his parents, raised by another culture, leads people to freedom...

If only superman were truly an epic.

Dec 12, 2012#107

Covar

Raemon777 said:
he's a sort of Jesus metaphor to begin with.

No.

Dec 12, 2012#108

Bowielee

I have to wonder what makes you so angry about the jesus metaphor.

Dec 12, 2012#109

Adam

Bowielee said:
I have to wonder what makes you so angry about the jesus metaphor.

Covar = Pontius Pilate. Guilt mostly.

Dec 12, 2012#110

Bowielee

I'm just wondering if it's an overraction based on religious beliefs, IE "how dare you compare a fictional character to our lord and savior".[DOUBLEPOST=1355340227][/DOUBLEPOST]I have to admit that most of my favorite Superman stories are ones in which Superman himself isn't even present for most of the story and deals more with other people's situations around him. For example "The man who has everything" and the death and return of Superman.

Dec 12, 2012#111

strawman

Bowielee said:
I'm just wondering if it's an overraction based on religious beliefs, IE "how dare you compare a fictional character to our lord and savior".[DOUBLEPOST=1355340227][/DOUBLEPOST]I have to admit that most of my favorite Superman stories are ones in which Superman himself isn't even present for most of the story and deals more with other people's situations around him. For example "The man who has everything" and the death and return of Superman.

Reread his posts on the previous page where he shows significant differences between the two that might give you insight into your question.

Dec 12, 2012#112

Bowielee

I have read them, however, they ignore the fact the death and return of Superman storylines which are most definately a jesus metaphor. As has already been stated, religion and mythology comparisons are strong in all facets of the superhero genre.

Also, as previously stated he's not JUST a jesus metaphor, he's a metaphor of multiple mythological beings besides just jesus.

Just to expand on the death and return as a jesus metaphor. He literally dies, confronts satan in hell (Blaze) and is ressurected.

Dec 12, 2012#113

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
Maybe. Maybe not. But now it's been out there for decades, it's pretty much considered canon. I've had a friend who always brings it up.

Since 1971. Which is actually the most important piece here - it was written at the height of Superman's supers and at a time when (so far as I know) comic writers couldn't do much more than hint at suggesting that their heroes might have a sex life. And, so far as I can find, it was intended as satirical.

Raemon777 said:
I think it *has* been used in some non-main versions (there's a smallville episode where Clark is *afraid* of something bad happening, my assumption is that eventually he develops better control/assurance).

No assumption - he literally tells Chloe that he's developed better control and can freely make with the sex in season nine or so. Directly related to him schtupping her cousin Lois Lane, awkwardly enough.

Dec 12, 2012#114

sixpackshaker

Well he had let Chloe know that it would have been dangerous to Lana Lang for them to shtupp... So when he started shtupping Lois Lane, he had to ease her mind.

Dec 12, 2012#115

CynicismKills

I'm fairly sure the Death/Return story wasn't a metaphor so much as a cash-grab.

Dec 12, 2012#116

Bowielee

CynicismKills said:
I'm fairly sure the Death/Return story wasn't a metaphor so much as a cash-grab.

The two arent mutually exclusive.

Dec 12, 2012#117

Covar

CynicismKills said:
I'm fairly sure the Death/Return story wasn't a metaphor so much as a cash-grab.

Timing issue actually. They wanted the wedding to sync up with the wedding in Lois & Clark.

Now the Jesus comparison a very forced metaphor whose links are weak at even the most superficial level. I hate it because the attempt to make it is responsible for a far to high amount of shitty Superman stories as well as being the reason you have people who insist that Superman is too boring and perfect.

Dec 12, 2012#118

CynicismKills

ThatNickGuy said:
"Aquaman is useless"

If you haven't read the New 52 Aquaman, you should. He and Mera are crazy badass, and the first issue or two he deals with people in the DC Universe who think he's a joke hero. The book does a great job of dispelling some stupid jokes like "talking to fish" and such.

Dec 12, 2012#119

strawman

CynicismKills said:
I'm fairly sure Superman isn't a metaphor so much as a cash-grab.

ftfy

Dec 12, 2012#120

ThatNickGuy

CynicismKills said:
If you haven't read the New 52 Aquaman, you should. He and Mera are crazy badass, and the first issue or two he deals with people in the DC Universe who think he's a joke hero. The book does a great job of dispelling some stupid jokes like "talking to fish" and such.

I have, actually, and quite recently. It was fantastic. It was like the old Geoff Johns that I knew and loved; the one that wrote the amazing run on Flash some years back.

Dec 12, 2012#121

Adam

ThatNickGuy said:
I have, actually, and quite recently. It was fantastic. It was like the old Geoff Johns that I knew and loved; the one that wrote the amazing run on Flash some years back.

God I love me Johns's Flash run. TO THE PIRATEBAY!

Dec 12, 2012#122

Bowielee

Covar said:
Timing issue actually. They wanted the wedding to sync up with the wedding in Lois & Clark.

Now the Jesus comparison a very forced metaphor whose links are weak at even the most superficial level. I hate it because the attempt to make it is responsible for a far to high amount of shitty Superman stories as well as being the reason you have people who insist that Superman is too boring and perfect.

So, basically, you don't like the metaphor, not that you deny it exists.

At his core, he's the savior of humanity. In a nutshell, that's the basic comparison.

As for Aquaman being lame, I'm fairly certain it's only people who's only exposure to him was through the Super Friends cartoon that ever thought that.

Dec 12, 2012#123

Covar

Adam said:
God I love me Johns's Flash run. TO THE PIRATEBAY!

http://www.amazon.com/Flash-Geoff-Johns-Omnibus-Vol/dp/1401230687
Amazon product
Amazon product

Dec 12, 2012#124

CynicismKills

ThatNickGuy said:
I have, actually, and quite recently. It was fantastic. It was like the old Geoff Johns that I knew and loved; the one that wrote the amazing run on Flash some years back.

It's the first time I've looked forward to DC releases in a very long time. I was really surprised how much I enjoyed it. Hell, they made Black Manta interesting, even.

Dec 12, 2012#125

Hailey Knight

Superman is totally Space Jesus, created by a Jewish guy.

Also this:

Superman Returns a good movie to me.

Dec 12, 2012#126

Espy

Wait, I missed that, who said Superman Returns was a good movie?

LOOK: I love Superman. I fucking tear up when I hear the John Williams theme. I was the ultimate Superman Returns apologist. My brain twisted itself into a pretzel trying to find ways to say the movie was good for at least a year or two after it came out.

But it's not. It's really a horrible, horrible movie for so many reasons.

Dec 12, 2012#127

bhamv3

Superman Returns had that scene with Superman's eye and the bullet, that was pretty cool.

Dec 13, 2012#128

BananaHands

Superbeard.

Dec 13, 2012#129

Ravenpoe

BananaHands said:
Superbeard.

Did someone page me?

Dec 13, 2012#130

KCWM

Espy said:
Wait, I missed that, who said Superman Returns was a good movie?

LOOK: I love Superman. I fucking tear up when I hear the John Williams theme. I was the ultimate Superman Returns apologist. My brain twisted itself into a pretzel trying to find ways to say the movie was good for at least a year or two after it came out.

But it's not. It's really a horrible, horrible movie for so many reasons.

I did, and included more of an explanation why. I have no reservations saying that it was good...to me. I know that I'm in the minority with that opinion and I'm OK with that.

The unfortunate thing is, Superman Returns suffers from over-hype and over-expectation. People went in expecting cinematic gold based on nostalgia from the first two Superman movies, the Superman animated series, and whatever else they watched. They went in expecting Bryan Singer to do to Superman what he did with X-Men.

Few, if any, modern movies can hold up to the hype of the internet, and Superman Returns definitely suffered because of that. Case in point...The Hobbit. Plenty of people are expecting something incredible, but the initial reviews are indicating that it's not. People work themselves into a frenzy over a movie and blow their disappointment out of proportion instead of objectively realizing that it's as much their fault as anything. Add this on top of creating a movie around a god-like character and you have a pretty big hill to climb.

I went into Superman Returns with little expectation. I've been doing this with movies since I hated the second Matrix movie when I first watched it. I'm going to do it with the Hobbit. If you watch Superman Returns for what it is and without the blinders of Superman comics/cartoons on, you see that it's not a bad flick at all.

Now, that isn't to say that it's without flaws because the last bit of the movie is pretty terrible, but that has more to do with the trouble writers face when trying to challenge Superman. It's not in my top 20 or even 30, but it's one I own and I'm not ashamed of that.

Dec 13, 2012#131

Covar

No Superman Returns suffered from a director jacking off to a 1976 movie he watched as a kid. There is no amount of over-hype that resulted in Superman being a horrible person, deadbeat father, and and stalker, or for Lois Lane to be the world's biggest idiot (Although Richard White might hold that title in the movie for believing her, but at least he was the only upstanding person in the movie). Likewise expecting large swaths of the movie to not be shot for shot reproductions of the Richard Donner films is not unreasonable.

Superman Returns suffered because it's a terrible movie that tries to hard to reproduce a movie that was made in the 70s and what original stuff is in the movie is absolutely horrifying, illogical, and inconsistent.

Dec 13, 2012#132

Norris

My favorite criticism of Superman Returns came from Kevin Smith: Superman mind wiped Lois after they slept together in Superman II. So wouldn't she have some pretty serious questions about how exactly she got pregnant with Superman's kid?

Dec 13, 2012#133

Espy

bhamv3 said:
Superman Returns had that scene with Superman's eye and the bullet, that was pretty cool.

Oh, it had some awesome moments. The space shuttle scene was fantastic. The guy LOOKED great. The movie LOOKED great. No doubts about that.

Covar said:
Superman Returns suffered because it's a terrible movie that tries to hard to reproduce a movie that was made in the 70s and what original stuff is in the movie is absolutely horrifying, illogical, and inconsistent.

YES.

The problem, in my opinion, was not hype, it was that it was a terrible movie, with a terrible Superman (seriously, he was not a good person here. Superman isn't a deadbeat creep of a dad, WTF?) and awesome effects and a fun performance by Spacy and a few others. Superman Returns had some great ingredients and it should have been a really tasty cake when it finished baking, instead it had some fantastic frosting but it was dry and stale and it left a bad taste in most peoples mouths.

Dec 13, 2012#134

fade

I'm interested in this movie. I would love to see a modern take on the character. The Donner movies were fun, but they were live action cartoons. And I don't mean post-Batman:TAS cartoons. Nothing wrong with that (and I side with Nick--Reeves was excellent, and convinced me that Kent and Supes were two different people). I want to see some character exploration. Maybe some exploration and discovery of his physical powers, too. Some emotion. Maybe a little less of the overdone "outsider looking in" bit. But, I really hope they leave his squeaky-clean morals intact. Please don't make him edgy or "dark". That's what makes superman superman.

Dec 13, 2012#135

strawman

Returns suffered from the director and writers taking a distinct turn away from "boy scout" superman. They don't merely want to continue the series, they want to redefine what he is.

Yes, the deadbeat dad, stalking, and a few other things don't quite mesh with what humans are expected to do, but he appears to be struggling with who he is, and what his role on earth is. How is it fair that his parents and planet died, but this planet now has a protector? Why him? He experienced love, but once he realized he was going to have a child he suddenly started questioning everything, and rather than leave her with the knowledge that he gave her a baby and left, he chose to erase her memory.

Is that the appropriate response? Who knows - he's an alien. One that has been raised in our society with all-american values and understanding, but it appears he's having his mid life crisis a bit early.

I think the answer to "I don't like superman because he is perfect and all powerful" is "what if he made some regrettable decisions? What if he had to struggle with the loneliness of being alien from your adoptive parents and their entire race?"

I don't know if it's the right direction to take, but it's certainly an interesting one.

He is supposed to be creepy. We are supposed to see him as an alien. He's a scared, lost child, and while he seems to have a calling in life, is this what his entire existence is for? Could he possibly be happy as a human with Lois and a child? Is there something more for him that's just out of reach? Are there limits to his power - either real or imagined, and are there limits to his love for humanity? Obviously he's aware of all the injustice that humans are inflicting on each other, he can't save even a small fraction of children from child abuse, etc.

I haven't read the comics, but my expectation is that the comic stories were a lot more involved and interesting than the simple, obvious stories that had little depth which hit the silverscreen in the eighties. Those movies aren't bad, but it wasn't much more than cowboys and indians with a superpowered sheriff.

Dec 13, 2012#136

Hailey Knight

Covar said:
No Superman Returns suffered from a director jacking off to a 1976 movie he watched as a kid.

THIS.

And I say that as someone who loves the 1976 movie.

Dec 14, 2012#137

KCWM

Steinman kind of hit on some of the reasons why I have less of an issue with the movie than others. I also have a much wider level of acceptance when it comes to movies because it's simply not worth the time and energy to rage over movies. Either they entertain me or they don't.

Dec 14, 2012#138

Espy

I wouldn't confuse people being critical of a movie with "raging", I think thats just a way to dismiss actual critique.

Superman Returns, from a basic filmmaking standpoint, had serious issues. An unlikable protagonist (this was the biggest issue, if you don't like the protagonist then you probably won't like the movie and Supes came off as weird and creepy to people), a boring and meandering plot with little clarity, the villian was a chunk of land.

It also had some strong things going for it: Amazing VFX work (seriously, whoa), fantastic sets and costumes, Kevin Spacey.

Dec 14, 2012#139

Hailey Knight

Espy said:
I wouldn't confuse people being critical of a movie with "raging", I think thats just a way to dismiss actual critique.

Superman Returns, from a basic filmmaking standpoint, had serious issues. An unlikable protagonist (this was the biggest issue, if you don't like the protagonist then you probably won't like the movie and Supes came off as weird and creepy to people), a boring and meandering plot with little clarity, the villian was a chunk of land.

It also had some strong things going for it: Amazing VFX work (seriously, whoa), fantastic sets and costumes, Kevin Spacey.

And again, someone gets it exactly. It's a matter of grinding against how you tell a story.

Dec 14, 2012#140

strawman

All I'm saying is that I'd watch it again. If nothing else was on. Probably.

And by nothing else I mean transformers.

Dec 14, 2012#141

CynicismKills

It just amazed me how boring they made the movie. I mean, the only things I remember about it are stopping the plane and lifting that Kryptonite island. Well, that and Supes getting all stalkery outside Lois' window. The whole thing's just so forgettable.

Apr 16, 2013#142

evilmike

The new trailer finally shows some action:

Apr 16, 2013#143

ThatNickGuy

To be fair, so did the last trailer.

And honestly? I've been very vocal about my feelings on the movie so far. I've been incredibly, incredibly apprehensive.

Now? I'm sold. I'm in. Bring it on.[DOUBLEPOST=1366169942][/DOUBLEPOST]Also:

"Can't I just keep pretending to be your son?"
"You are my son."

Apr 16, 2013#144

Tress

That is a much, much, much, MUCH better trailer. I'm actually sold too, and I'm not the die hard fan that TNG is.

Apr 16, 2013#145

Bowielee

I don't know, so they made him a brooding wolverine loner who moves from place to place so know one knows who he is?

Also, are they avoiding calling him Superman at all?

Also, it was a big old war that destroyed Krypton? I guess that ties in Zod, but the original movie did it without tying him to the cataclysm that destroyed the planet.

I'm still leery, though it does look like we'll finally have a movie where Superman actually fights.

Apr 17, 2013#146

Hailey Knight

Absence of Snyder Stupid Slow-mo has me cautiously optimistic that the action will be good. And one thing going good for Snyder is that his choice of cinematography does lend a comic book feel, like it's less than real.

I'm probably still not going to see it.

Apr 17, 2013#147

fade

Bowielee said:
I don't know, so they made him a brooding wolverine loner who moves from place to place so know one knows who he is?

Isn't this canon, though? He wandered the world, esp. Africa, if I recall correctly, before settling down.

Apr 17, 2013#148

Hailey Knight

fade said:
Isn't this canon, though? He wandered the world, esp. Africa, if I recall correctly, before settling down.

That was Hellboy.

And maybe Superman, I don't know.

Apr 17, 2013#149

phil

I've seen a comic or two where he did that, yes.

Apr 17, 2013#150

Espy

Watched this last night.

Jaw dropping.

Also, this looks far more like Christopher Nolan than typical Zach Snyder. I really think Snyder is focusing more here thanks to Nolan's role as producer and I think we are going to get a really phenomenal movie.

Apr 17, 2013#151

Adam

It appears Superman did okay with two dads. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, bigots!!

Apr 17, 2013#152

ThatNickGuy

Clark travelling the world is canon. In many iterations, he didn't go right from Smallville to Metropolis, but travelled the world in order to find his place. It's not brooding. It's soul searching.

As far as the big war and such, that again is canon, which also ties in with the idea of the S being more than just an S or representing the House of El. Superman Birthright had the S represent all of Krypton; a unifying symbol after considerable civil unrest.

Seems to me this movie's story, or at least parts of it, borrow from Birthright. Given how much I liked that story and its reinterpretations of the mythos, I'm totally okay with that.

Apr 17, 2013#153

fade

Birthright was pretty good. Well, except maybe overly angsty Jor-El. I kind of preferred the classic stoic martyr version. I guess it's probably more realistic.

Apr 17, 2013#154

Bowielee

fade said:
Birthright was pretty good. Well, except maybe overly angsty Jor-El. I kind of preferred the classic stoic martyr version. I guess it's probably more realistic.

I think Jor-El has been interpreted in more different ways than any other comic character. He's wildly different in many interpretations, anywhere from a eugenics evil scientist to kindly master scientist of Krypton and everything in between.[DOUBLEPOST=1366212938][/DOUBLEPOST]

ThatNickGuy said:
Clark travelling the world is canon. In many iterations, he didn't go right from Smallville to Metropolis, but travelled the world in order to find his place. It's not brooding. It's soul searching.

As far as the big war and such, that again is canon, which also ties in with the idea of the S being more than just an S or representing the House of El. Superman Birthright had the S represent all of Krypton; a unifying symbol after considerable civil unrest.

Seems to me this movie's story, or at least parts of it, borrow from Birthright. Given how much I liked that story and its reinterpretations of the mythos, I'm totally okay with that.

I know the conflict is cannon, but it was usually an event that preceeded the destruction of Krypton. In fact, it becomes the reason that Kryptonians pull together for an age of prosperity before the planet goes boom.. But again, his origin has been swapped around and changed so many times, the only thing that really remains consistent is that he was sent to earth to avoid being destroyed when the planet blows up.

Apr 17, 2013#155

bhamv3

That trailer was awesome.

I will watch this movie.

Apr 17, 2013#156

Steve

I would like to be put into a medically induced coma and brought out of it on opening day. Going to be a long couple of months.

Apr 17, 2013#157

Ravenpoe

Steve said:
I would like to be put into a medically induced coma and brought out of it on opening day. Going to be a long couple of months.

I can smack you in the face until you go into a healing coma, but we'll have to put up with a bunch of guys dressed like you suddenly showing up.

May 22, 2013#158

evilmike

Another new trailer

May 22, 2013#159

strawman

Keen!

May 22, 2013#160

Gilgamesh

That new trailer makes Superman seem WAAAAY out of place. So much future tech, armors, space suits, dark muted colors then BAM, Blue/Red spandex.

Just didn't work for me at all. Seemed like a completely different movie with Superman photoshopped and dubbed in.

May 22, 2013#161

Covar

It really seems like they're going out of their way to not focus on Superman.

May 22, 2013#162

Espy

Damn. It keeps looking better and better. I'm trying to keep my expectations low but... it's getting harder and harder.

May 22, 2013#163

Charlie Don't Surf

That sounds exactly like Zach Snyder directing a Superman movie

May 22, 2013#164

ThatNickGuy

Gilgamesh said:
That new trailer makes Superman seem WAAAAY out of place. So much future tech, armors, space suits, dark muted colors then BAM, Blue/Red spandex.

Just didn't work for me at all. Seemed like a completely different movie with Superman photoshopped and dubbed in.

I'd say that's done on purpose. He doesn't relate with Kryptonians because he was raised on Earth his whole life. So from a visual sense, he's an outsider to them, too. He doesn't belong with them, hence the different colour scheme.

Personally, this trailer felt like answering the "this looks like Tree of Life!" complaints by saying, FUCK YOU WE GOT ACTION.

May 22, 2013#165

Espy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
That sounds exactly like Zach Snyder directing a Superman movie

Lol, probably.

I know I have to keep my expectations low because of Snyder but I keep think, "Well, it looks like Snyder and thats good because his movies look amazing but will it play out like a Snyder film, a Nolan film or a little of both?" I'd be happy with everything but the first option.

May 22, 2013#166

strawman

Covar said:
It really seems like they're going out of their way to not focus on Superman.

I got the opposite impression.

It seems like they are focusing on what a lot of people so plain about ad nauseum: superman is too perfect and awesome.

He has weaknesses, and one of those is that he cares for humanity. It's obvious that his character is going to change and grow through this particular trial, and that he will be faced with some pretty tough choices.

May 22, 2013#167

Espy

Plus, the last trailer was like the Superman Action Show. This one focused more on Zod. Me likey.

May 22, 2013#168

Gilgamesh

ThatNickGuy said:
I'd say that's done on purpose. He doesn't relate with Kryptonians because he was raised on Earth his whole life. So from a visual sense, he's an outsider to them, too. He doesn't belong with them, hence the different colour scheme..

Even the humans were wearing the out of place space suits. The color schemes for Earth matched the alien stuff more than it made Superman fit in that trailer. Again, the trailer felt more like an action sci-fi movie than a Superman one.

May 22, 2013#169

ScytheRexx

Was one of those shots Superman getting pulled into a pile of skulls?

Never expected to see that in a comic book movie about Superman.

May 22, 2013#170

Fun Size

Espy said:
I'm trying to keep my expectations low but... it's getting harder and harder.

Wow. I liked the trailer and all, but I'm not that excited.

May 22, 2013#171

klew

I got a Man of Steel trailer before Star Trek Into Darkness IMAX 3D, and thought the 3D looked pretty dang good.

May 22, 2013#172

Espy

klew said:
I got a Man of Steel trailer before Star Trek Into Darkness IMAX 3D, and thought the 3D looked pretty dang good.

Me too, I was very surprised.

May 22, 2013#173

Jay

Welp.... this movie might make it on my must watch list..

May 23, 2013#174

North_Ranger

Still not sold.

I'm sorry, but I just have a hard time taking Superman seriously. Mostly because of the silly costume and the greasy 30s hairstyle.

May 23, 2013#175

bhamv3

I don't know if it's because I know the Superman mythology, or because of confirmation bias, but I can't look at Superman in this movie (especially during his bearded grungy period) without thinking "Wow he reminds me of Jesus."

Still gonna watch it.

May 23, 2013#176

Gusto

Excited for Supes.

May 28, 2013#177

ThatNickGuy

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/05...e-mythbusters-and-mayim-bialik-have-theories/

This is the strangest and yet most brilliant movie promotion I've ever seen: Conan O'Brien throws down the gauntlet and asks anyone to answer the big question, "HOW DOES SUPERMAN SHAVE?"

Several experts, including Bill Nye, Mayim Bialik, and Kevin Smith, throw in their suggestions.

Me? I like the classic, simple way:

May 28, 2013#178

Gilgamesh

I just figured his hair and body hair didn't grow any further than it's current length?

May 28, 2013#179

ThatNickGuy

Gilgamesh said:
I just figured his hair and body hair didn't grow any further than it's current length?

Nope. There's been multiple examples of his hair or facial hair growing out. See my current, new avatar.

May 28, 2013#180

Chad Sexington

Wait, figured it out.

Fake beard. Then he switched to glasses for his disguise. Shoulda stuck with the beard.

May 28, 2013#181

ThatNickGuy

Hey, I'll take a beard or glasses over a mullet any day.

May 28, 2013#182

Gilgamesh

He can mentally will it to grow or recede!
ThatNickGuy - I dont read enough Superman to have ever seen the in canon issues of those situations, seen him 99% of the time with the same no beard, short haircut.

May 28, 2013#183

fade

Haven't they answered this in canon several times? I thought the TAS clip above was the comic canon.

May 28, 2013#184

North_Ranger

ThatNickGuy said:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/05...e-mythbusters-and-mayim-bialik-have-theories/

This is the strangest and yet most brilliant movie promotion I've ever seen: Conan O'Brien throws down the gauntlet and asks anyone to answer the big question, "HOW DOES SUPERMAN SHAVE?"

Several experts, including Bill Nye, Mayim Bialik, and Kevin Smith, throw in their suggestions.

Me? I like the classic, simple way:

That will have to stop the moment Lois Lane... ahem... "stays for breakfast". Can you imagine what would happen if she walked in on Supes while he was shaving? Most likely wearing very little or nothing...?

One slip of the male gaze...

May 28, 2013#185

ThatNickGuy

fade said:
Haven't they answered this in canon several times? I thought the TAS clip above was the comic canon.

Yup. In fact, the comment section of that Bleeding Cool article has scores of people posting examples.

May 28, 2013#186

Chad Sexington

ThatNickGuy said:
Yup. In fact, the comment section of that Bleeding Cool article has scores of people posting examples.

Kevin Smith's video also mentions it, but he says he doesn't like it as an answer.

May 28, 2013#187

ThatNickGuy

Chad Sexington said:
Kevin Smith's video also mentions it, but he says he doesn't like it as an answer.

Kevin Smith and I are no longer friends, then.

May 28, 2013#188

Covar

He gets in trouble early in Brynes run (I think it might actually be the Man of Steel mini) because Lois notices he doesn't have the necessary toiletries for shaving.

May 28, 2013#189

strawman

Chad Sexington said:
Kevin Smith's video also mentions it, but he says he doesn't like it as an answer.

Well why should he? Laser vision is a stupid super power.

May 28, 2013#190

Gilgamesh

stienman said:
Well why should he? Laser vision is a stupid super power.

May 28, 2013#191

strawman

Gilgamesh said:
View attachment 10981

May 28, 2013#192

sixpackshaker

I have never seen Kevin Smith speaking so comfortably before.

May 28, 2013#193

ThatNickGuy

stienman said:
Well why should he? Laser vision is a stupid super power.

Awesome. This doubles as a face palm, too!

May 28, 2013#194

Ravenpoe

I thought Superman specifically had HEAT Vision, and not laser vision. I don't think it should be able to reflect.

And if I were to write how he shaves (and this is probably why I'm not a Superman writer) I'd have him use his fingernails.

May 28, 2013#195

Chad Sexington

Ravenpoe said:
I thought Superman specifically had HEAT Vision, and not laser vision. I don't think it should be able to reflect.

And if I were to write how he shaves (and this is probably why I'm not a Superman writer) I'd have him use his fingernails.

You can totally reflect heat

May 28, 2013#196

Covar

Just checked my Man of Steel trade. In issue 4 he uses an electric razor to provide sound effects while he shaves using his heat vision and a piece of the rocket to reflect it onto his face.

Lois then proceeds to wonder how Clark Kent manages to keep in such great shape despite having such light dumbbells.

May 28, 2013#197

sixpackshaker

Now, how does he get his hair cut?

May 28, 2013#198

Ravenpoe

He could always have a wizard or sorcerer enchant a razor and scissors set for him. There's plenty in the DC universe he could call up.

May 28, 2013#199

Dave

It'll be really hard to separate Zod from Agent van Alden.

May 29, 2013#200

strawman

Dave said:
It'll be really hard to separate Zod from Agent van Alden.

May 29, 2013#201

ThatNickGuy

Dave said:
Agent van Alden.

Won't be a problem for me. I don't know who that is.

May 29, 2013#202

Dave

ThatNickGuy said:
Won't be a problem for me. I don't know who that is.

The first time I ever saw this actor was "Boardwalk Empire".

Jun 6, 2013#203

ThatNickGuy

Well, this movie just continues to look awesome.

Jun 6, 2013#204

Dave

Just found out my work is paying for us all to go to see this on the 14th at 1 pm and they are even throwing in popcorn and soda! Man that's amazing!

Jun 6, 2013#205

sixpackshaker

Dave said:
Just found out my work is paying for us all to go to see this on the 14th at 1 pm and they are even throwing in popcorn and soda! Man that's amazing!

I hope that does not bankrupt the company.

Jun 6, 2013#206

Dave

sixpackshaker said:
I hope that does not bankrupt the company.

Me, too! Bonuses are in July! (Besides, we paid for this already by donating for jeans days & stuff like that.)

Jun 6, 2013#207

Charlie Don't Surf

I live every day of my life like it's jeans day

Jun 6, 2013#208

Ravenpoe

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I live every day of my life like it's jeans day

Pfft, since I became unemployed, I refuse to wear pants of any kind.

Fight the oppression!

Jun 6, 2013#209

phil

I'm concerned about the pacing of the movie. It seems like a lot happens, so I wonder if it'll feel rushed in parts.

1) Start on Krypton, introduce Jor-El and Zod, the war etc.
2) Supes goes to earth, get's found
3) Early life biograph. Discovering powers-questioning himself-traveling the world
4)Becomes superman- part with the military and meeting lois
5) Zod invades epic fights

seems like it could be a lot for 1.5-2 hours. I'm worried it'll be the first sections taking up most of the film while the fights at the end are kind of rushed in.

and it looks like...Jor El survives as well? That'll be interesting. I wonder if Krypton will even blow up at all, or just be destroyed in the post apocalypse sense.

Jun 6, 2013#210

strawman

Keep in mind that jor-el appears as a hologram in other media, so it wouldn't surprise me if the "hologram" is more perfect now.

As far as the first three items on your list, I expect they'll be told as flashbacks, rather than story and exposition, so they may take little time.

I'd like to see a little traveling.

But we'll find out soon enough...

Jun 6, 2013#211

Charlie Don't Surf

if Tupac as a Hologram is Superman's father, I will see this movie

Jun 7, 2013#212

Steve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...ure=iv&hd=1&src_vid=cGsGQ_Cg338&v=dVVwa1N3TS4

The more I see of this movie the better it looks.

Jun 7, 2013#213

ThatNickGuy

Holy shit.

HOLY SHIT.

I need to see this movie. NOW.

Jun 8, 2013#214

Bowielee

So.... Superman kinda just killed the attendant of that gas station.

Jun 8, 2013#215

Hailey Knight

Steve said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...ure=iv&hd=1&src_vid=cGsGQ_Cg338&v=dVVwa1N3TS4

The more I see of this movie the better it looks.

That's interesting.

Since Zod isn't used to have super-hearing, super-vision, etc. the stuff Superman is used to, he's getting sensory overload. I never thought about that before.

Jun 8, 2013#216

strawman

"And the martian race was killed by the common cold. The end."

Jun 8, 2013#217

ScytheRexx

Funny. They used a similar type of scenario in the last animated movie, Superman: Unbound.

The way Superman defeats Brainiac is by ripping him from his ship onto the surface of Earth. Brainiac, so used to living in a sterile machine world that he controls, becomes overwhelmed by the chaotic sights, sounds, and creatures that inhabit the planets surface, his own super hearing catching everything around him. It is ultimately this that destroys him, as even his superior brain couldn't handle so much chaos, causing his biological parts to combust. Superman himself even goads about the fact that he learned how to control his senses, so as to no longer be effected by the chaos.

Jun 11, 2013#218

evilmike

Jun 13, 2013#219

Enresshou

Wanted to see this at midnight tonight...fiancé and I couldn't go, so we have to wait until Sunday.

THE WAIT BURNSSSSS

Jun 14, 2013#220

ThatNickGuy

http://thrillbent.com/blog/man-of-steel-since-you-asked/

Walking Superman encyclopedia Mark Waid saw it and wrote his thoughts. There are very heavy spoilers for it.

And...well, I was tired from work and not in a very good mood, so I said screw it and read it. Now I'm not only in a worst mood, but I feel sick to my stomach.

Here's the big spoiler. The one that, when I read it, I instantly said, "No. That's not Superman. I don't want to see this movie anymore."

The big spoiler? Seriously, don't click if you don't want to know:

Superman defeats Zod by snapping his neck, killing him.

SUPERMAN. DOES. NOT. FUCKING. KILL. Most especially in not such a bullshit, cold-blooded way.

And yes, I know he killed once in the comics before. Three Kyrptonian criminals. But doing so broke him mentally. Nervous breakdown and left Earth. It killed him to do so.

I'm really, really, really considering not bothering with this piece of shit at all.

Jun 14, 2013#221

bhamv3

ThatNickGuy said:
http://thrillbent.com/blog/man-of-steel-since-you-asked/

Walking Superman encyclopedia Mark Waid saw it and wrote his thoughts. There are very heavy spoilers for it.

And...well, I was tired from work and not in a very good mood, so I said screw it and read it. Now I'm not only in a worst mood, but I feel sick to my stomach.

Here's the big spoiler. The one that, when I read it, I instantly said, "No. That's not Superman. I don't want to see this movie anymore."

The big spoiler? Seriously, don't click if you don't want to know:

Superman defeats Zod by snapping his neck, killing him.

SUPERMAN. DOES. NOT. FUCKING. KILL.

I'm really, really, really considering not bothering with this piece of shit at all.

Well... they were going for a darker and grittier Superman, I guess... but yeah, that's pretty bullshit.

Jun 14, 2013#222

Nile

... He's Superman. That's the one thing he refuses to do unless the fate of the universe literally depends on it.

That's... The single worst thing they could have put in it. It violates everything he stands for.

Jun 14, 2013#223

DarkAudit

That's another $20 the theaters won't be getting from me.

Jun 14, 2013#224

klew

Would that spoiler not count as superdickery? Or was there a more representative instance?

Jun 14, 2013#225

bhamv3

The only way I could see them salvaging it is if they have Superman agonize over it in the inevitable sequel. If killing Zod sets him on the path towards his never-kill philosophy, if that's what it takes for him to realize the sanctity of life, then there's potential for character development there.

But still, c'mon, it's total bullshit. Not killing is an integral part of the Big Blue Boyscout's character. It's like making Batman no longer an orphan, or having Spider-man not quip during fights, or taking away Deadpool's ability to talk, or turning the Phoenix Force into an alternate personality instead of a cosmic entity.

Yes, I realize they actually did the last three in comic book movies. And they all sucked ass.

Jun 14, 2013#226

Bowielee

ThatNickGuy said:
I'm really, really, really considering not bothering with this piece of shit at all.

Don't bother with it. I never understand this line of thinking. By going, knowing what you know, you're giving your dollar vote in support of this movie. I've heard enough that I will be staying far away from the movie entirely.

QUIT GOING TO MOVIES THAT YOU KNOW ARE BAD, PEOPLE!!!!

It's the main reason horrible movies keep getting top grosses.

Jun 14, 2013#227

DarkAudit

Wired review.

That ain't Superman. That ain't Pa Kent.

Fuck you Nolan.
Fuck you Snyder.

Fuck this movie.

Jun 14, 2013#228

Fun Size

ThatNickGuy said:
Superman defeats Zod by snapping his neck, killing him.

SUPERMAN. DOES. NOT. FUCKING. KILL. Most especially in not such a bullshit, cold-blooded way.

And yes, I know he killed once in the comics before. Three Kyrptonian criminals. But doing so broke him mentally. Nervous breakdown and left Earth. It killed him to do so.

Serious question: as someone who doesn't read comics beyond occasionally picking up a trade of the more famous events/series, I really haven't read a lot of Superman. I did just read Crisis on Infinite Earths (somewhat regrettably), and I distinctly remember that after Supergirl dies, Supes was all "I'm gonna kill this motherfucker". I'm guessing that this was out of character for him then? I guess I didn't think anything of it at the time because, you know...extinction of all living matter and all that.

Jun 14, 2013#229

strawman

Zack Snyder: :trolol:

I'm sure I'll see it and enjoy it.

Jun 14, 2013#230

ThatNickGuy

Thank Christ everyone's agreeing with me on here. I have a friend on Facebook who constantly judges me for choosing not to see a movie because of bullshit. Like the recent Star Trek rehashing Wrath of Khan rather than trying something different (including all the bullshit surrounding that).

This is different. This violates one of Superman's core character traits.

The sad thing is, because I'm such a huge Superman fan, I feel like I need to see it so I know exactly what I'm arguing against. But honestly? That one huge character violation is enough for me. Warner Bros. has been trying to make Superman darker and grittier for a long time now. They finally got their wish.

Jun 14, 2013#231

Bubble181

Eh. You can say a lot of things about Nolan's Batman, but as far as I remember, he was plenty gritty and dark and still managed to stick to the "Batman doesn't kill" part of the story. I don't see how or why Supes would need to kill all of a sudden, unlss it's in an effort to one-up Batman, or, possibly, because of what Bhamv said...

I wasn't really planning on seeing this, and now I certainly don't. Plenty of other good movies playing I haven't seen yet.

Jun 14, 2013#232

Covar

Star Trek Into Darkness is not just a rehashing of Wrath of Khan. That's not to say it doesn't include references and nods, but they are two very different movies. To put it in perspective if Into Darkness is a rehash, then Superman Returns (talk about violating core character traits) was just a screening of the Donnor films.

Jun 14, 2013#233

LittleKagsin

(Bring on the disagrees)

Sorry not sorry, but I loved it. It's all fine and dandy that you guys aren't going to see it, but I'm disappointed that you can't go enjoy something. I honestly don't expect you all to ever change your mind but I think you should know...

The reason Superman kills Zod is because Zod vows to never stop killing humans. Zod and his military forces berate Superman for over half of the film about how they will kill 1 million humans for every 1 that Superman saves. At the end during the final battle, Zod reminds Superman that he will never stop - he was created for the soul purpose of protecing Krypton, for protecting the people of Krypton and that means destroying earth. So he has no morals, he will kill anyone and everyone. And Superman still doesn't kill him. An insane fight later, Superman has Zod in a headlock and there they struggle, Zod spotting a family in the corner. Zod begins to laser vision them, as the father sheilds his family. Superman is begging Zod to please stop, don't do this. But Zod reminds Supes that he will never stop. So, Superman snaps his neck. Then weeps, cries out. Lois goes to hug him, but he doesn't even get up, he just kneels on the ground hugging her, sobbing. I think it makes a bigger impact as well, that they've set up from earlier in the film, that he doesn't want a family to go through what he went through - he watched Daddy Kent die. So, he saves them the only, THE ONLY, way he can.

So, hate on this movie, it's your right to do so. I just think you're making a mistake in letting others decide for you when it comes to films.

I will be going to see it again.

Jun 14, 2013#234

ThatNickGuy

Covar said:
Star Trek Into Darkness is not just a rehashing of Wrath of Khan. That's not to say it doesn't include references and nods, but they are two very different movies. To put it in perspective if Into Darkness is a rehash, then Superman Returns (talk about violating core character traits) was just a screening of the Donnor films.

I disagree on two fronts, there. The whole Star Trek movie might not have been a rehash of Wrath of Khan, but the ending was, complete with the "sacrifice" done the exact same, but with a twist. And Superman Returns didn't really violate any core character traits as far as I can think of. It was continuation of the Donner films, trying to mimic the same style, not a rehash.[DOUBLEPOST=1371217778][/DOUBLEPOST]

LittleKagsin said:
(Bring on the disagrees)

Sorry not sorry, but I loved it. It's all fine and dandy that you guys aren't going to see it, but I'm disappointed that you can't get off your fanboy pedastal

And you lost me. Insulting me won't win me over to your side of the argument.

Jun 14, 2013#235

LittleKagsin

If I edit it, will you read the rest of it? Because I think it's important. I just felt like you were insulting me because I went to, and really enjoyed 'a piece of shit' film. I thought you wouldn't be resonable, no matter what I said.

I apologize.

Jun 14, 2013#236

Ravenpoe

ThatNickGuy said:
Thank Christ everyone's agreeing with me on here. I have a friend on Facebook who constantly judges me for choosing not to see a movie because of bullshit. Like the recent Star Trek rehashing Wrath of Khan rather than trying something different (including all the bullshit surrounding that).

This is different. This violates one of Superman's core character traits.

The sad thing is, because I'm such a huge Superman fan, I feel like I need to see it so I know exactly what I'm arguing against. But honestly? That one huge character violation is enough for me. Warner Bros. has been trying to make Superman darker and grittier for a long time now. They finally got their wish.

I'm not even that big of a Superman fan, as we've talked about before, but if I'm going to see Superman, then damnit, I want to see the big blue boyscout. Turning Superman into a murderer is like walking in to find Mr Rogers beating his wife.

Jun 14, 2013#237

ThatNickGuy

LittleKagsin said:
If I edit it, will you read the rest of it? Because I think it's important. I just felt like you were insulting me because I went to, and really enjoyed 'a piece of shit' film. I thought you wouldn't be resonable, no matter what I said.

I apologize.

I did read it and I'm sorry, it still violates Superman's core character. Read Mark Waid's interpretation of what you described in the link I provided.

Jun 14, 2013#238

LittleKagsin

ThatNickGuy said:
I did read it and I'm sorry, it still violates Superman's core character. Read Mark Waid's interpretation of what you described in the link I provided.

Well, that's okay, and I'm sorry you won't be seeing it. But I still enjoyed, and will enjoy it again.

I'm at work right now, so I'll read the link when I get off.

Jun 14, 2013#239

Dave

I'll be seeing it in 4 hours for free. I actually can't wait although I am NOT a Zach Snyder fan.

Jun 14, 2013#240

Frank

Yeah, the only Zack Snyder movie I've remotely enjoyed was Watchmen.

Matinee for me today.

Jun 14, 2013#241

DarkAudit

Thanks to vacation and a sleep schedule that guarantees I'm never up and/or functional during theater operating hours, I was probably going to not see the movie anyway. The reports coming back only make it less likely that I'll even rent or buy the home version, either.

Jun 14, 2013#242

Covar

Red sun room. What's that you say? Well remember how in the first X-Men after stopping Magneto without killing him, even though it's pretty clear he's never going to stop trying to lower humanity to second class citizens? At the end of the movie he is sent to a really visually cool plastic prison, which makes him unable to use his powers. A red sun room is the same thing, sealed off prison cell where the only light is red sunlight. This is also not a new idea to the Superman mythos.

Superman Returns was dangerously close to being a shot for shot remake of Superman 1. The parts that were different give us Deadbeat Dad Superman, Child endangerment Lois Lane, and The only character who acts like a decent person but is to dumb to do basic math Perry White's Son. Bottom line, every good part of that movie except for one (Shuttle rescue, which even then ends with "Hey remember that line we all loved from the first movie?") is available on my Superman the Movie DVD, and is done much better there.

Returns rant over, I'm glad to see that my lack of faith in Man of Steel being something other than a piece of trash has been justified. Hopefully Monsters U and Pacific Rim turn out okay.

Jun 14, 2013#243

ScytheRexx

I have been worried every since the whole "Maybe" line from Pa Kent and the scene that shows Superman punch Zod through a 7/11 store, blowing it and likely anyone near it up. Looks like my fears end up being justified.

Jun 14, 2013#244

sixpackshaker

I'll likely still go see it. I have missed only one Superman Movie in the Theaters and that was IV. Because III was bad enough and even the trailers for IV were bad.

Hell I went into the Transformer movies knowing they would suck. I might as well help out a franchise that I actually like.

Jun 14, 2013#245

ThatNickGuy

LittleKagsin said:
If I edit it, will you read the rest of it? Because I think it's important. I just felt like you were insulting me because I went to, and really enjoyed 'a piece of shit' film. I thought you wouldn't be resonable, no matter what I said.

I apologize.

Same here. I was incredibly angry when I wrote "piece of shit." For all I know, it's actually a very good movie. But imagine if someone took your favourite thing and did something with it that should never be a part of it.

Jun 14, 2013#246

Charlie Don't Surf

The only part of this movie I'm interested in is the huge action crazy superhuman death fight at the end since I pretty much hate Superman the character. I'm just not looking forward to sitting through 2 and a half hours of serious/gritty/self-important shit to get to the part where Michael Shannon yells for 45 minutes and destroys a city.

Jun 14, 2013#247

ScytheRexx

You know as a fan of Superman...

I am not all the angry about him killing Zod. If what LittleKagsin said is true, they made it into a huge deal that he felt was his only option to save a families life. While I don't like the fact he did it, I can at least empathize a bit in a stressful, high stakes, spur of the moment situation like that.

What I don't like is what people keep explaining as a total disregard for everyone else around him. The scene with him flailing through the pillars and 7/11 outside Smallville just felt really out of place for him because it's reckless and dangerous to people that are not super-human. I would understand if Zod hit him and forced him through a building, but Superman was the one doing the punching in that scene and thus the root cause of the destruction. Supposedly this happens a lot from what I read.

Jun 14, 2013#248

Fun Size

ThatNickGuy said:
But imagine if someone took your favourite thing and did something with it that should never be a part of it.

*sigh* Just like your prom night.

Jun 14, 2013#249

ThatNickGuy

ScytheRexx said:
You know as a fan of Superman...

I am not all the angry about him killing Zod. If what LittleKagsin said is true, they made it into a huge deal that he felt was his only option to save a families life. While I don't like the fact he did it, I can at least empathize a bit in a stressful, high stakes, spur of the moment situation like that.

What I don't like is what people keep explaining as a total disregard for everyone else around him. The scene with him flailing through the pillars and 7/11 outside Smallville just felt really out of place for him because it's reckless and dangerous to people that are not super-human. I would understand if Zod hit him and forced him through a building, but Superman was the one doing the punching in that scene and thus the root cause of the destruction. Supposedly this happens a lot from what I read.

Yeah, even Waid points this out. Like the clip we saw a few pages ago, where they're fighting in Smallville. Superman doesn't think to pull Zod into a nearby field or something. Because, you know, Smallville. Kansas. Farming. There'd be a lot of fields.

Jun 14, 2013#250

ScytheRexx

One more thing...

I think one of the reasons I am okay with him killing Zod was because the story arch reminds me a lot of one of my favorite anime, Trigun. The whole series, Vash refuses to kill anyone for any reason, even though he has the skill to do it. It was the basis of his character. Later on near the end of the series, he is put into a situation where he either kills one of his enemies, or watches two long time friends of his get slowly murdered. He pulls the trigger and executes the man after intense hesitation, and is mentally broken by the event. This character growth comes to a climax when he has the chance to kill his brother, the mastermind behind the whole thing, but once again refuses to do it, standing by his values and not letting the one act to save his friends break his ethics as a whole.

As long as future Superman movies don't treat it in the wishy-washy nature the Batman trilogy treated death by the hero, I can get over it.

Jun 14, 2013#251

figmentPez

I'm still going to see it. I've read the spoilers, and that doesn't change my opinion at all. I've always thought that part of Superman's character is ridiculously overblown. It should be an ideal with reason behind it, even held to an unreasonable extent, but still subject to reality and exception. An example:

The worst example I can think of from comic books I've read is Superman Vs. Aliens (yes, from the Alien movie franchise). Superman goes to investigate what he thinks is a city of more survivors from Kyrpton, and finds it overrun with xenomorphs. Far away from the sun his powers are dwindling, the first attack of xenomorphs partially blinds him with acid, and the xenomorphs have shown no mercy, or even any signs of sentience. Yet, for all this, Superman still refuses to kill them. Depowered, vulnerable, and with the last remaining survivors of an entire city, and he won't kill because the xenomorphs might be intelligent.

NO! That's not morality, that's stupidity. Superman doesn't kill for reasons, not just an absolute without thinking. He doesn't kill because he doesn't want to be judge, jury and executioner. He doesn't kill because his power makes it too easy. He has other options, and as long as he has other options, he won't kill because he doesn't want to abuse his power. In the Superman vs Aliens comic people keep dying because Superman won't take action. He let's people he knows are intelligent, caring, rational beings die, because of the off chance that xenomorphs aren't the slavering beasts they appear to be. Not just once, but over and over, and it's sickeningly wrong. Now I'm not going to say that The Man of Steel puts the situation so starkly, but there comes a time when Superman isn't handing down judgement like a god and is just protecting innocents in a desperate situation.

Zod has an army. I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if it's possible to put Zod in a red sun prison to begin with, but I don't see how you keep him there along with an entire army of Kryptonians. Maybe Superman has some possible option in the movie, I don't know, but I'm not going to say it must be bad simply because he chooses to kill. There should be circumstances that would cause Superman to kill. He his "morality" is just a cardboard cutout if it can't deal with the reality that sometimes death is necessary. Let him kick himself afterwards for not being strong enough to find another option, but saying he's not Superman because he killed in a war with equals is to miss the entire point of why Superman should have a no kill policy in general.

Jun 14, 2013#252

filmfanatic

I saw it last night. It was alright. I thought Henry Cavill was really good as Superman and the stuff about Clark traveling the world as a kind of guardian angel was good, but the film as a whole was too cold and dour. I also have to echo Mark Waid's points about the film.

Jun 14, 2013#253

strawman

I think it's ok for people to say "this is a different superman" and even "I'm staying true to my vision of superman by not viewing this work."

I think it's also ok for people to say, "I really enjoyed this superman."

I don't think it's ok for people to say, "I like avocados, they go great with most foods."

That's just sick and wrong.

Jun 14, 2013#254

Chad Sexington

stienman said:
I don't think it's ok for people to say, "I like avocados, they go great with most foods."

That's just sick and wrong.

I will fight you.

Jun 14, 2013#255

Gusto

AVOCADO THREAD SPINOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFF

Jun 14, 2013#256

Tress

Chad Sexington said:
I will fight you.

Jun 14, 2013#257

Espy

I'm not reading spoilers in here and I cannot fucking wait to see it. I love Superman but I honestly could care less if they mess with the Mythos. We are going Tuesday though so I'll have to avoid all the spoilers till then. So far most of the reviewers I trust are loving it so I feel pretty confident about it.

Jun 14, 2013#258

Chad Sexington

Espy said:
I'm not reading spoilers in here and I cannot fucking wait to see it. I love Superman but I honestly could care less if they mess with the Mythos. We are going Tuesday though so I'll have to avoid all the spoilers till then. So far most of the reviewers I trust are loving it so I feel pretty confident about it.

The twist is Superman is M Night Shyamalan.

Jun 14, 2013#259

Gusto

Sooooo skeptical.... but.... Superman....

Jun 14, 2013#260

Espy

Chad Sexington said:
The twist is Superman is M Night Shyamalan.

The twist is it's about a guy who thinks he can have a career in print media!

Jun 14, 2013#261

GasBandit

Espy said:
The twist is it's about a guy who thinks he can have a career in print media!

"Ha ha ha! Wait... awwww. I made myself sad."
-Radio industry

Jun 14, 2013#262

Dave

Just got back. Zack Snyder HATES buildings that are larger than 3 stories high. He also hates all planes and helicopters. And he loves black body armor.

Zod was nigh on perfect, though, as was the guy who played Supes, although him being weakened during a major point was nonsensical.

Anyway, it was a lot of style with little substance, pretty much what you expect to see from Snyder.

Jun 14, 2013#263

Steve

LittleKagsin said:
(Bring on the disagrees)

Sorry not sorry, but I loved it. It's all fine and dandy that you guys aren't going to see it, but I'm disappointed that you can't go enjoy something.
I will be going to see it again.

Agreed. Loved the movie. Most of what people are complaining about here I enjoyed. Even Pa Kent. I'll see it again as well.
I wonder how many people in my theater sat there thinking "I can't wait for this movie to finish so I can rush home and let the world know how horrible it was." People were flying out the parking lot like bats out of hell.

Jun 14, 2013#264

Bowielee

While I totally agree that Superman snapping Zod's neck is something that Superman would never ever do, I do feel the need to point out that Superman totally killed Zod in the original Superman 2 and Lois totally killed Ursa.

There's no way they survived those falls in the Fortress of Solitude.

Yes, I know that there's talk of an alternate ending showing them still alive, but the film doesn't show or even imply that they lived.

The more I think about it, Zod's death in Superman 2 is even more out of character for Superman, because the Phantom Zone priosoners were completely depowered, so Superman chucked a completely defenseless guy down a giant cravasse.

Jun 14, 2013#265

Frank

Alright, still figuring out Tapatalk. Can't edit posts. I was typing that I agree with Dave. I liked that they didn't feel the need to shoehorn kneel before Zod into the film (fuck you Star Trek).

Jun 14, 2013#266

ThatNickGuy

Bowielee said:
While I totally agree that Superman snapping Zod's neck is something that Superman would never ever do, I do feel the need to point out that Superman totally killed Zod in the original Superman 2 and Lois totally killed Ursa.

There's no way they survived those falls in the Fortress of Solitude.

Yes, I know that there's talk of an alternate ending showing them still alive, but the film doesn't show or even imply that they lived.

The more I think about it, Zod's death in Superman 2 is even more out of character for Superman, because the Phantom Zone priosoners were completely depowered, so Superman chucked a completely defenseless guy down a giant cravasse.

See, I'm more willing to accept that one BECAUSE of the alternate footage. It may not have made it into the original theatrical cut, but it has made it into the Donner cut and apparently some cuts for TV. It was written and filmed, but not edited in, which means it could've been just taken out for time reasons, not story. So just because they didn't show them die doesn't mean they were dead. Comic book rule #1 when defeating bad guys: no body, no proof of death. See also, the scores of times that Joker was seemingly killed.

Jun 14, 2013#267

strawman

http://notalwaysromantic.com/superbad/26409

Superbad

ON, Canada
(My boyfriend will often go on weird tangents about superheroes. It’s one of the things I adore about him, figuring out where his mind is going. We’re snuggling in the morning before beginning our day.)
Boyfriend: “You know how you’re at a grocery store, and you see those pyramid type of displays? And how you’re at the front of it, looking, admiring, and thinking about how you don’t want to disturb it, but you want some of the product?”
Me: “Yeah…”
Boyfriend: “So, I was thinking about Superman. He could swoop in and take a can from the bottom-most end of the display, causing it to crash. But because he’s so fast, he’d do it, put the can in your hand, and be around the corner before anyone could see or react.”
Me: “Uh huh…”
Boyfriend: “Then I thought it’d be a cool TV show idea… ‘Superman: The Douche Moves’.”
(It’s now a running theme in our conversations: trying to find the ‘douche-iest’ things that Superman could do.)

I would watch that show.

Jun 14, 2013#268

Bowielee

Ubiquitous:

www.superdickery.com

Jun 15, 2013#269

Adam

Although I enjoyed the movie, the product placement was a little much.

Jun 15, 2013#270

Far

Fights were very well done, other stuff...meh.

Jun 15, 2013#271

Frank

Adam said:
Although I enjoyed the movie, the product placement was a little much.

IHOP IHOP IHOP IHOP SEARS!

Jun 15, 2013#272

Gilgamesh

I give the movie a 3 star out of 5.
Pros: Great fun, great characters, fantastic acting and wonderful special effects. Oh and no slow motion sex scene.
Cons: Complete disregard for anything to do with Superman being the very essence of what he is supposed to be. Synder doesn't give a shit about who Superman really is or what he stands for. Also, for completely fucking over the Pa Kent character.

Can someone like LittleKagsin go to this film and enjoy it? Sure if she doesn't care about who Superman is. Can someone like ThatNickGuy completely hate it? Of course, because he cares about who Superman is.

If you want to go to a movie and not care about who the main character really is? More power to you. I however will not be funding this film any further with subsequent viewing or Blu ray purchases. Sadly the former type of movie goer is the majority and this film will do well.

Jun 15, 2013#273

Frank

No slow mo at all that I can remember, which boggled my mind, questioning whether or not Zach Snyder really directed it. I'm going to spoil some shit in this post, so just don't read further if you haven't seen it.

The story was nigh non-existent, but I didn't expect much.

What I did like was the representation of their powers. It was also neat watching the villains slowly learn what their capabilities are on Earth. I even kind of liked how Krypton was portrayed. I don't know how much of the natural birth stuff was taken from the any of the comics, as I'm not very familiar with Superman (the best Superman story I've ever read was the first Samaritan story from Astro City) but I thought it was a nifty take on his alien origins.

It's not the Superman from the comics (or maybe it sort of is, there's been how many different interpretations of the character?). It's its own thing, for good or bad.

Stuff I would have done differently (minor changes I mean). I probably would have had Zod be more stoic and calculated in the opening sequence of Krypton, before letting him go fucking Michael Shannon batshit fucking nuts after the world engine is stopped and he totally loses his mind. That's just me, he seemed too emotional the whole time.

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The only part of this movie I'm interested in is the huge action crazy superhuman death fight at the end since I pretty much hate Superman the character. I'm just not looking forward to sitting through 2 and a half hours of serious/gritty/self-important shit to get to the part where Michael Shannon yells for 45 minutes and destroys a city.

On the positive side, there's also some pretty neat alien death battle with evil sub-commander and giant guy too where the military airstrikes the main street of an American town with no concern for civilians.

Jun 15, 2013#274

Bowielee

Jor El is supposed to be a scientist, whom nobody will believe about the imminent destruction of Krypton. That's the reason that Kal El was the only one to survive.

I can really forgive re-interpretation of Jor El, though, because he's been portrayed as everything from a cold emotionless Megela type charcter to a gentile and benevolent scientist in the various origin stories.

Jun 15, 2013#275

Hailey Knight

Even the positive reviews make this sound like a waste of money for me.

As does much of this summer. Probably the only movie left to see is Pacific Rim. I guess I'll save my gift certificates for the end of the year when the interesting stuff is coming out.

Jun 15, 2013#276

bhamv3

I just got back from it, and I agree with pretty much what Gilgamesh said about it.

Short review: It's not a terrible movie, nor is it a great one. It's a fun but flawed movie. However, it's really hard to call it a Superman movie. Superman didn't act like Superman, Jonathan Kent didn't act like Jonathan Kent, Lois Lane was kinda only a bit like Lois Lane, and you could've replaced Perry White with a cardboard cutout of Laurence Fishbourne and nothing would have been lost.

Now, regarding the horrible deviation from Superman's established character (really big spoilers):

I kinda see what they were trying to do with the scene, but it was very poorly executed. Superman and Zod go through their huge climactic battle, and end up in the Metropolis equivalent of Grand Central Station. Superman has Zod in a headlock, and Zod activates his heat vision, aiming the beam at a nearby trapped family. He slowly moves the beam towards the innocent civilians, while Superman begs him to stop, until Zod almost hits the humans and Superman breaks his neck. Superman then falls to his knees, screams in anguish, and Lois comes in to comfort him.

The idea of the scene is that Superman had no choice, he had to kill Zod to save the humans. There's an earlier scene where Zod declares that basically either Superman will have to die, or Zod will, because Zod will never stop killing humans; this is meant to be foreshadowing for the death of Zod. However, the problem with the execution of the scene is that Superman has lots of choices. Zod's on his knees, in a headlock. Superman can't fly up and away, dragging Zod through the roof and away from the innocents? Superman can't, I dunno, turn Zod's head in another direction, so the heat beam doesn't go near the humans? Superman can't use any of his powers to stop a guy from slowly moving his heat beam towards a stationary target? Come on!

Superman's lack of concern for collateral damage is also quite jarring. He repeatedly deliberately tosses his opponents into buildings, vehicles, etc. All in all, it doesn't feel like Superman.

Jun 15, 2013#277

checkeredhat

Chad Sexington said:
I will fight you.

I was staying out of this thread, but then avacados were mentioned.

Jun 15, 2013#278

Squidleybits

I'm a huge Henry Cavill fan. How was he in the film? I took my daughter and her friend to see Epic yesterday and it was hard to not want to see this after being in a theatre all afternoon yesterday.

Jun 15, 2013#279

filmfanatic

Squidleybits said:
I'm a huge Henry Cavill fan. How was he in the film? I took my daughter and her friend to see Epic yesterday and it was hard to not want to see this after being in a theatre all afternoon yesterday.

I actually thought he was really good as Superman. I just wish that the film as a whole was better.

Jun 15, 2013#280

Frank

I can say this about Man of Steel. It's better than Superman Returns.

Jun 15, 2013#281

Frank

Alright, this is something that bugged me.

Why was the Kryptonian response to running out of natural resources the abandonment of their extra planetary colonies? Does whoever wrote the movie understand why people colonize other places?

Jun 15, 2013#282

KCWM

You guys and your gnashing of teeth. You never fail me.

I enjoyed it. The only comic movie I've enjoyed more was The Avengers. It's a great summer action movie. We aren't dealing with the Superman that people know, we're watching the hero develop.

And excusing the death of Zod and Ursa in Superman II because there's a deleted scene that shows them alive? Fucking cop-out, lameass justification of a nostalgic movie when he did the same thing to what was basically a human. But, oh no no, a deleted scene makes it OK...I guess...sort of...if you cock your head to the right a little.

Jun 15, 2013#283

ThatNickGuy

KCWM said:
And excusing the death of Zod and Ursa in Superman II because there's a deleted scene that shows them alive? Fucking cop-out, lameass justification of a nostalgic movie when he did the same thing to what was basically a human. But, oh no no, a deleted scene makes it OK...I guess...sort of...if you cock your head to the right a little.

No, it counts because it was filmed but edited out possibly by the second director who came in later (who is also responsible for all the lame comedy bits and the cellophane S). It's in the Richard Donner director's cut. And as I said, rule #1 when defeating bad guys: no body, no proof of death. There are countless times Joker was seemingly killed but came back because of this same thing. We didn't see Joker's body at the end of The Laughing Fish episode, so he must be dead.

Jun 15, 2013#284

Gilgamesh

KCWM said:
You guys and your gnashing of teeth. You never fail me.

I enjoyed it. The only comic movie I've enjoyed more was The Avengers. It's a great summer action movie. We aren't dealing with the Superman that people know, we're watching the hero develop.

And excusing the death of Zod and Ursa in Superman II because there's a deleted scene that shows them alive? Fucking cop-out, lameass justification of a nostalgic movie when he did the same thing to what was basically a human. But, oh no no, a deleted scene makes it OK...I guess...sort of...if you cock your head to the right a little.

It was filmed, the director's original intent was there. There is a large difference between the director showing Superman's complete lack of empathy for his beloved human race, then committing a murder when he clearly had other options. The problem here is the director's take on Superman is a slap in the face to the character and his beliefs. The Donner Superman 2 clearly had intent to show that it was not a murder, for reasons unknown (most likely idiot producers/execs) cut the scene in the original theatrical release.

Jun 15, 2013#285

Steve

For those of you who hated this movie, what are you comparing it to? For me, Superman has always been a boring hero. Growing up I was more into Marvel, specifically Spider-Man, as I saw that character as someone I could relate to. The prior Superman movies were not very good. The 1978 movie was the equivalent of the 60's Batman. It was tongue in cheek with a bumbling villain. Clark was a goofy character there for the amusement of the audience. The second movie was more of the same. Every movie after that got a little worse. Superman Returns was a boring two hours that I'll never get back. This movie made me care about Superman, more specifically Clark. It successfully portrayed him as an outsider who wanted to fit in. Even though he's invincible he came across vulnerable. Without saying too much the tornado scene between him and his father was one of the best moments in the movie (in my opinion). General Zod's motivation made perfect sense. And he was vicious when it came to executing his plan. This was the first time in the history of Superman I actually cared for this character. As far as the special effects. . . wow. I really enjoyed The Avengers but compared to Man of Steel that movie seems like a Saturday morning cartoon. The devastation to the city seemed real. Great movie.

Jun 15, 2013#286

Gilgamesh

Steve said:
For those of you who hated this movie, what are you comparing it to?

Everything Superman has done and stood for since his inception.

Steve said:
For me, Superman has always been a boring hero.

Exactly why I put you and others in the group of -If you don't care about Superman, you'll enjoy this film

Steve said:
Growing up I was more into Marvel, specifically Spider-Man, as I saw that character as someone I could relate to.

Yet I could argue that the latest Spider-Man movie was also trash.

Steve said:
The prior Superman movies were not very good. The 1978 movie was the equivalent of the 60's Batman.

Talk about an opinion with little substance.

Steve said:
It was tongue in cheek with a bumbling villain. Clark was a goofy character there for the amusement of the audience.

I think you misunderstand the entire character of Clark Kent, though you already admitted you're not very familiar/knowledgeable about the mythos.

Steve said:
The second movie was more of the same. Every movie after that got a little worse. Superman Returns was a boring two hours that I'll never get back.

Correct, Superman 3-4 and Returns were not great films.

Steve said:
This movie made me care about Superman, more specifically Clark. It successfully portrayed him as an outsider who wanted to fit in. Even though he's invincible he came across vulnerable.

Noone is arguing against that. It's not what's wrong with the film. It's what they did right.

Steve said:
Without saying too much the tornado scene between him and his father was one of the best moments in the movie (in my opinion).

Except that wasn't Pa Kent behavior, and wasn't from the beginning of the movie. Not even remotely close.

Steve said:
General Zod's motivation made perfect sense. And he was vicious when it came to executing his plan. This was the first time in the history of Superman I actually cared for this character. As far as the special effects. . . wow. I really enjoyed The Avengers but compared to Man of Steel that movie seems like a Saturday morning cartoon.

Correct, again, Zod was great, the special effects were great. Noone is knocking those parts.

Steve said:
The devastation to the city seemed real. Great movie.

Devestation seemed real. Absolutely. In Superman's style? Not even close.

Again, Great movie? Yes. Great Superman film? Complete trash.

Jun 15, 2013#287

Frank

I think you guys are not mad that it's not true to Superman, but that it's not your version of what's true to Superman. There's been so many incarnations of the character. This is just another one. It's own thing. I can't remember how often I've been shit on for comparing source material to adaptation here. Same thing.

Jun 15, 2013#288

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
I think you guys are not mad that it's not true to Superman, but that it's not your version of what's true to Superman. There's been so many incarnations of the character. This is just another one. It's own thing. I can't remember how often I've been shit on for comparing source material to adaptation here. Same thing.

Incorrect, even the writers of the best Superman stories are destroying it with criticism. See the Mark Waid link Nick posted. If you can't be bothered, then don't assume.

Jun 15, 2013#289

Bowielee

Steve said:
For those of you who hated this movie, what are you comparing it to? For me, Superman has always been a boring hero. Growing up I was more into Marvel, specifically Spider-Man, as I saw that character as someone I could relate to. The prior Superman movies were not very good. The 1978 movie was the equivalent of the 60's Batman. It was tongue in cheek with a bumbling villain. Clark was a goofy character there for the amusement of the audience. The second movie was more of the same. Every movie after that got a little worse. Superman Returns was a boring two hours that I'll never get back. This movie made me care about Superman, more specifically Clark. It successfully portrayed him as an outsider who wanted to fit in. Even though he's invincible he came across vulnerable. Without saying too much the tornado scene between him and his father was one of the best moments in the movie (in my opinion). General Zod's motivation made perfect sense. And he was vicious when it came to executing his plan. This was the first time in the history of Superman I actually cared for this character. As far as the special effects. . . wow. I really enjoyed The Avengers but compared to Man of Steel that movie seems like a Saturday morning cartoon. The devastation to the city seemed real. Great movie.

And even Spider-Man was able to find a way to beat his enemies without straight up murdering them.

Jun 15, 2013#290

Frank

Gilgamesh said:
Incorrect, even the writers of the best Superman stories are destroying it with criticism. See the Mark Waid link Nick posted. If you can't be bothered, then don't assume.

Kurt Busiek liked it, he's one of the best Superman writers. ERRYONE GOT OPINIONS.

Fuck off with your incorrect bullshit.[DOUBLEPOST=1371340929][/DOUBLEPOST]

Bowielee said:
And even Spider-Man was able to find a way to beat his enemies without straight up murdering them.

They tried (and failed I think) to do Nolan's version of Schrodinger's cat there. It wasn't handled well, but that's Zach "blunt" Snyder for you.

Jun 15, 2013#291

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
Kurt Busiek liked it, he's one of the best Superman writers. ERRYONE GOT OPINIONS.

He's also the minority. Opinions can be wrong, most often when the majority of experts on the subject are in agreement. Sorry.

Frank said:
Fuck off with your incorrect bullshit.

Stop being wrong and angry and I would?

Jun 15, 2013#292

Frank

I'm not angry, you're being a condescending cunt to everyone you reply to while using your own opinions as if they're facts, something you do constantly (and will defensively claim you don't EVERY time you're called on it). That response is what you deserve.

I like that you claim experts, when the only expert that has been shown in this thread is Mark Waid. Good majority.

Jun 15, 2013#293

Frank

On a positive note, can I get a fuck yeah for Larry "White" Fishburne? That was unexpected and rad.

Jun 15, 2013#294

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
bunch of angry responses and name calling

Frank said:
I'm not angry

Jun 15, 2013#295

ThatNickGuy

Frank said:
I think you guys are not mad that it's not true to Superman, but that it's not your version of what's true to Superman. There's been so many incarnations of the character. This is just another one. It's own thing. I can't remember how often I've been shit on for comparing source material to adaptation here. Same thing.

Except there is no version of Superman where he straight up murders someone so cold-blooded. Or, from what I've read, has so little care for the innocent people around him. Apparently, he was throwing Kryptonians into buildings all over place? That's careless, which isn't Superman, either.

It's becoming clear to me that this movie was designed for people who don't ordinarily like Superman. Which, from what I understand, includes David Goyer and Chris Nolan. Which makes a lot of sense when you see it that way.

But apparently, making Superman "cool" for people who don't like him is to make him careless and willing to kill. Because I guess we don't have enough superheroes out there like that, already.

Jun 15, 2013#296

Gilgamesh

ThatNickGuy said:
Except there is no version of Superman where he straight up murders someone so cold-blooded. Or, from what I've read, has so little care for the innocent people around him. Apparently, he was throwing Kryptonians into buildings all over place? That's careless, which isn't Superman, either.

It's becoming clear to me that this movie was designed for people who don't ordinarily like Superman.

That's what I keep telling everyone who is arguing the point, it's like they take that as an insult when they themselves will say in their own post -I don't normally like Superman/Find him boring- etc

Jun 15, 2013#297

Frank

ThatNickGuy said:
Except there is no version of Superman where he straight up murders someone so cold-blooded. Or, from what I've read, has so little care for the innocent people around him. Apparently, he was throwing Kryptonians into buildings all over place? That's careless, which isn't Superman, either.

It's becoming clear to me that this movie was designed for people who don't ordinarily like Superman. Which, from what I understand, includes David Goyer and Chris Nolan. Which makes a lot of sense when you see it that way.

But apparently, making Superman "cool" for people who don't like him is to make him careless and willing to kill. Because I guess we don't have enough superheroes out there like that, already.

He's pretty murdery in Red Son (which apparently is Henry Cavill's favorite Superman story)

People were so stoked to have Nolan watching over the movie, but you can see what his additions were. The killing Zod predicament was a wholly Nolan thing, unfortunately Zach Snyder is incapable of ever being subtle.

I agree, it's the same to you as it is with me and Star Trek. What we like or want isn't what's going to make big splosion bucks. It isn't for us.

Jun 15, 2013#298

Ravenpoe

ThatNickGuy said:
Except there is no version of Superman where he straight up murders someone so cold-blooded.

Superman #22, the first time Superman ever kills anyone. Main comic continuum.

Outside the main continuum, there have been lots of iterations of Superman that killed.

Smallville, series 6, Clark kills a superpowered villain called Titan.

Injustice: Gods Among Us. Alternate reality world in which The Joker tricks Superman into murdering Lois, leading to him becoming a murdering tyrant.

Death of Superman: Superman and Doomsday kill each other (spoiler, neither are really dead, but he fully intended to kill Doomsday because there was no other way to stop him)

Jun 15, 2013#299

Bowielee

Examples where an alternate world Superman becomes a murdering tyrant after crossing the line backs up our point, rather than weakens it.

I'm also glad you brought up Doomsday. That was an example where they COULD have easily avoided most of this WTFery that's going on. In the Death of Superman arc, Superman tries multiple times to pull the fight away from the populated areas, but Doomsday keeps pulling him back. What's annoying people isn't even so much that Superman kills at all, it's that he does it callously and has no regard for the safety of the people he's trying to protect. Look back to my reaction to the final trailer. Superman throws Zod into a gas station with literally miles of empty farmland around him. There were obviously people at the gas station, because there's a car there. Those people are dead. So, apparently this one family at the end is more important enough for him to murder someone, but it's perfectly OK to put civilians in harms way prior to that.

Also, Smallvile... lol.

Jun 15, 2013#300

ThatNickGuy

Ravenpoe said:
Superman #22, the first time Superman ever kills anyone. Main comic continuum.

Outside the main continuum, there have been lots of iterations of Superman that killed.

Smallville, series 6, Clark kills a superpowered villain called Titan.

Injustice: Gods Among Us. Alternate reality world in which The Joker tricks Superman into murdering Lois, leading to him becoming a murdering tyrant.

Death of Superman: Superman and Doomsday kill each other (spoiler, neither are really dead, but he fully intended to kill Doomsday because there was no other way to stop him)

According to the Smallville wiki, "death was only the result of Titan falling on his own bone 'claws' rather than anything Clark did)"
Injustice is an alternate time-line with Superman going bad, so doesn't count. Ditto for Red Son. The Doomsday thing, maybe okay, but he sacrificed his own life doing it. Reading into it like that, you could say breaking his one rule killed him.

As for Superman #22, I mentioned that before. For one, I don't agree with it, but the aftermath of that was at least interesting. Superman had a complete nervous or mental breakdown because of it and left Earth for awhile due to said instability. Even after, it still haunted him. I highly doubt we'll see that same kind of emphasis on guilt from Goyer & Nolan.

There are many writers, like Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, who disagree with the idea of Superman killing. Even Kurt Busiek, who did like the film, said, "Not what I would have done, but for the story they were telling it worked okay," which is a weak compliment.

Jun 15, 2013#301

Gilgamesh

Ravenpoe said:
Superman #22, the first time Superman ever kills anyone. Main comic continuum.

Back in the early days of comics, Batman used a gun too. That's all been retconned for a reason. It was considered out of character and not right for who he was/is/stands for.

Ravenpoe said:
Outside the main continuum, there have been lots of iterations of Superman that killed.

Smallville, series 6, Clark kills a superpowered villain called Titan.

Injustice: Gods Among Us. Alternate reality world in which The Joker tricks Superman into murdering Lois, leading to him becoming a murdering tyrant.

That's fine if they would have done an alternate reality world style Superman, but that's not what it was. It was supposed to be a retelling of who Superman is and stands for and they failed.

Ravenpoe said:
Death of Superman: Superman and Doomsday kill each other (spoiler, neither are really dead, but he fully intended to kill Doomsday because there was no other way to stop him)

Also wrong, he eventually puts him on a meteor and chunks him out into space.

Jun 15, 2013#302

Frank

They could have done so much with the fact that it was his first time super heroing, like him not understanding just how far he could go and yeah, putting people in danger there. It would have required a more talented film maker and writer though.[DOUBLEPOST=1371344940][/DOUBLEPOST]

ThatNickGuy said:
AEven Kurt Busiek, who did like the film, said, "Not what I would have done, but for the story they were telling it worked okay," which is a weak compliment.

The exact quote I saw was "I thought it was an interesting and powerful interpretation of Superman. Not perfect, but very good at what it set out to be."

Not glowing, but more of a compliment than you're giving him credit for giving it.

Jun 15, 2013#303

Gilgamesh

Was anyone thrown off with how quickly they'd cut scene to the next one and it'd be days/weeks/months/years later? I'm not even talking about the flashback scenes, I'm talking about how scenes just popped into each other with no explanation of time passing. It was off putting for a while.

Jun 15, 2013#304

ThatNickGuy

Frank said:
They could have done so much with the fact that it was his first time super heroing, like him not understanding just how far he could go and yeah, putting people in danger there. It would have required a more talented film maker and writer though.[DOUBLEPOST=1371344940][/DOUBLEPOST]

The exact quote I saw was "I thought it was an interesting and powerful interpretation of Superman. Not perfect, but very good at what it set out to be."

Not glowing, but more of a compliment than you're giving him credit for giving it.

Actually, what I quoted was a direct quote, as well. I asked him specifically how he felt about "that moment" and that's what he said.

Jun 15, 2013#305

Frank

Can you Superfans give me some GOOD Superman stories to check out? Like, the really good stuff, the stuff on par with Busiek's original Samaritan story or All-Star Superman.

Like most of the big two's output, most of what I've read is unfortunately crap. (this isn't insulting the characters you love, but the questionable editorial decisions of DC and Marvel over the years)

Another sort of Superman story I've read that I liked was one were he was spending time with Billy Batson after finding out he was Shazam but that was more of a Captain Marvel story.

Jun 15, 2013#306

Bowielee

Gilgamesh said:
Also wrong, he eventually puts him on a meteor and chunks him out into space.

No, you're wrong on this one. Superman has every intention of killing him. The Death of Superman is one of my favorite story arcs, so I'm pretty familiar with it.

Obviously neither of them are REALLY dead, but Superman straight up says he will do whatever it takes to stop him. However, they did make it a point to have Dubblex (a psychic from STAR labs) tell him that Doomsday is barely sentient and that his only goal is to kill everything and everyone he sees.

Jun 15, 2013#307

Gilgamesh

Bowielee said:
No, you're wrong on this one. Superman has every intention of killing him. The Death of Superman is one of my favorite story arcs, so I'm pretty familiar with it.

Obviously neither of them are REALLY dead, but Superman straight up says he will do whatever it takes to stop him. However, they did make it a point to have Dubblex (a psychic from STAR labs) tell him that Doomsday is barely sentient and that his only goal is to kill everything and everyone he sees.

Fair enough.

Jun 15, 2013#308

ThatNickGuy

Frank said:
Can you Superfans give me some GOOD Superman stories to check out? Like, the really good stuff, the stuff on par with Busiek's original Samaritan story or All-Star Superman.

Like most of the big two's output, most of what I've read is crap.

All Star Superman's my top pick, but others I tend to recommend:

1) Superman Secret Identity - Not just my favourite Superman story, but my favourite comic.
2) Death/Funeral/Return of Superman - The writing has become a bit outdated, but it's still a fun epic.
3) Birthright - Sort of like DC's answer to Marvel's Ultimate universe, this takes Superman and puts him in today's setting. They even explain very well why it's not just the glasses that fool people.
4) Kingdom Come - Technically stars everyone from the DC Universe, but this is definitely a Superman story at its core.
5) Superman for All Seasons - A really touching book that focuses a lot on Superman's very optimistic - and maybe a little naive - farmboy viewpoint on the world.[DOUBLEPOST=1371345554][/DOUBLEPOST]Yeah, I kind of agree with Bowie on this one. Technically, he does intend to kill Doomsday, but they sort of rectify that by having it explained that Doomsday really isn't all that alive and is more or less just a killing machine.

Jun 15, 2013#309

Frank

Death/Return/etc is so 90's the comics have their own mullets.

Jun 15, 2013#310

ThatNickGuy

Frank said:
Death/Return/etc is so 90's the comics have their own mullets.

Hey now, the mullet doesn't appear until near the end.

Also, fuck you. I had a mullet in High School.

...wait, why am I proud of that?

Jun 15, 2013#311

Bowielee

Kingdom Come is actually a great example of where the thinking of Man of Steel leads superheroes in general.

Jun 15, 2013#312

ThatNickGuy

Bowielee said:
Kingdom Come is actually a great example of where the thinking of Man of Steel leads superheroes in general.

^This. So much this. Barrels full of this.

Jun 15, 2013#313

Gilgamesh

I would probably put Kingdom Come as my all time favorite series. It's just so perfect.

Jun 15, 2013#314

Frank

ThatNickGuy said:
Hey now, the mullet doesn't appear until near the end.

Also, fuck you. I had a mullet in High School.

...wait, why am I proud of that?

Well, it was the 90s.

Jun 15, 2013#315

Bowielee

Frank said:
Well, it was the 90s.

At least he didn't have a rat tail....

Which I totally didn't either... :whistling:

Don't judge me!

Jun 15, 2013#316

Frank

The man in front of me at Man of Steel had one. I also think he has TB or lung cancer based on his phlegmy smokers cough.

Jun 15, 2013#317

Far

I normally don't care for superman/find him boring and I wasn't fond of the movie. So if the movie was made for me, that kinda fell flat.

Jun 15, 2013#318

Ravenpoe

Gilgamesh said:
Also wrong, he eventually puts him on a meteor and chunks him out into space.

I'm doing this all from memory, so I could be wrong, but I think it was Hank Henshaw (Cyborg Superman) that chunked Doomsday into space. Superman had every intention of killing Doomsday, because he had fought him all across ~~the world~~ the united states and realized this was the only option to stop the destruction. I'm also willing to bet it was better done than whatever Zach Snyder does in this movie.

I'm not claiming that Man of Steel is a good movie. I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds like a dumb action movie, which can be enjoyable so long as you view it for what it is. I was responding to the notion that no interpretation of Superman has ever killed before.

Jun 15, 2013#319

Gilgamesh

Ravenpoe said:
I'm doing this all from memory, so I could be wrong, but I think it was Hank Henshaw (Cyborg Superman) that chunked Doomsday into space. Superman had every intention of killing Doomsday, because he had fought him all across ~~the world~~ the united states and realized this was the only option to stop the destruction. I'm also willing to bet it was better done than whatever Zach Snyder does in this movie.

I'm not claiming that Man of Steel is a good movie. I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds like a dumb action movie, which can be enjoyable so long as you view it for what it is. I was responding to the notion that no interpretation of Superman has ever killed before.

Correct, I was wrong about the Doomsday vs Superman topic.

Jun 15, 2013#320

Hailey Knight

Gilgamesh said:
Was anyone thrown off with how quickly they'd cut scene to the next one and it'd be days/weeks/months/years later? I'm not even talking about the flashback scenes, I'm talking about how scenes just popped into each other with no explanation of time passing. It was off putting for a while.

That's called neededtimeforanotherdraftosaurus.

Jun 15, 2013#321

Frank

Quotemander Prime said:
That's called neededtimeforanotherdraftosaurus.

Movie had some severe ADHD for sure.

Jun 15, 2013#322

figmentPez

Gilgamesh said:
Also wrong, he eventually puts him on a meteor and chunks him out into space.

That wasn't Superman. That was Hank Henshaw, the Cyborg.

What Superman did to Doomsday is found in the series Superman/Doomsday - Hunter/Prey, in which Superman hunts down Doomsday across the galaxy, enlists Darkseid's help to do so, equips himself with a high tech gun and sword, proceeds to use both, plus his heat vision at full strength, and finally, kills Doomsday by letting a Mother Box decide where to send both of them using a Linear Man time travel device, and leaving Doomsday at the very end of time to be ripped apart by the forces there. (From which Doomsday was rescued by Brainiac after Superboy Prime reset time, or something like that.)

Superman was freaking brutal in his assault on Doomsday in that series. He repeatedly says "one way or another, this has to stop". He kills Doomsday, after learning that Doomsday is capable of speech, saying that he doesn't know how intelligent Doomsday is, and learning that Doomsday was made on Krypton and that's why he fought Superman so fiercely on Earth.

Oh, and let's not forget what Superman did to Hank Henshaw at the end of the Return of Superman story arc. Superman was just repowered after dying, and Hank Henshaw was weakened due to expose to Kryptonite. Superman stuck his fist through Henshaw's chest and vibrated his arm so that he exploded into thousands of pieces. Afterwards Green Lantern scans the room and can't find any signs of Henshaw's consciousness, and Superman says he thinks Henshaw couldn't switch bodies because he was weakened by the green K. (The only reason Henshaw survived is that he had put a copy of himself on Doomsday before sending him off on the aforementioned asteroid.)

Let me repeat that: Superman tried to kill Hank Henshaw, and would have succeeded if Henshaw hadn't made a backup copy of himself. A copy that Superman did not know about. For all intents and purposes, Superman killed an opponent who was weakened to the point that he could no longer fight, and Superman had just been restored to full power. Green Lantern and Steel were both on hand to consult on how to contain Henshaw, and Superman killed him.

Jun 15, 2013#323

Bowielee

figmentPez said:
Green Lantern and Steel were both on hand to consult on how to contain Henshaw, and Superman killed him.

You mean the Green Lantern that was just about to go insane and slaughter the Green Lantern corps?

Jun 15, 2013#324

Frank

Bowielee said:
You mean the Green Lantern that was just about to go insane and slaughter the Green Lantern corps?

Nobody saw that coming!

Jun 15, 2013#325

Bowielee

Frank said:
Nobody saw that coming!

I actually loved the Emerald Twilight storyline, and still wish that they had left Kyle Raynor as the Green Lantern.

Jun 15, 2013#326

Gilgamesh

figmentPez - again, for the third time in this thread, I was wrong about the Doomsday issue.

Jun 15, 2013#327

Bowielee

I want someone to write an Elseworld series where all the deaths and cripplings that DC did in the 90s were't reversed. Batman remains broken and becomes basically the Bruce Wayne from Batman Beyond. Superman stays dead, with Superboy taking up his legacy. Kyle Raynor and Wally West retain their roles as GL and Flash. Speaking of which, I HATED that they brought back Barry Allen to replace Wally West.

I also love that it's cannon in the DCAU that Flash from JLU is, in fact, Wally West.

Jun 15, 2013#328

figmentPez

Bowielee said:
Speaking of which, I HATED that they brought back Barry Allen to replace Wally West.

I want Wally West back so that he can sing Thrift Shop at Bart Allen. "I wear your grandpa's clothes, I look incredible..."

Jun 15, 2013#329

Bowielee

Wally West was one of the few sidekicks who actually got to live up to his legacy by replacing the hero that he was sidekick to.

Jun 15, 2013#330

Frank

Bowielee said:
I want someone to write an Elseworld series where all the deaths and cripplings that DC did in the 90s were't reversed. Batman remains broken and becomes basically the Bruce Wayne from Batman Beyond. Superman stays dead, with Superboy taking up his legacy. Kyle Raynor and Wally West retain their roles as GL and Flash. Speaking of which, I HATED that they brought back Barry Allen to replace Wally West.

I also love that it's cannon in the DCAU that Flash from JLU is, in fact, Wally West.

That would have been great. Seriously.

Jun 15, 2013#331

figmentPez

figmentPez said:
I want Wally West back so that he can sing Thrift Shop at Bart Allen. "I wear your grandpa's clothes, I look incredible..."

Aha! I finally found the image I was thinking of:

Jun 15, 2013#332

DarkAudit

Sigh.

I wanted to use the "world of cardboard" speech to counterpoint this movie, but then...

Superman proceeds to punch Darkseid through half the skyscrapers in downtown Metropolis.

Jun 16, 2013#333

Hailey Knight

Gilgamesh said:
Also wrong, he eventually puts him on a meteor and chunks him out into space.

You know, in case no one else already told you.

Jun 16, 2013#334

ThatNickGuy

DarkAudit said:
Sigh.

I wanted to use the "world of cardboard" speech to counterpoint this movie, but then...

Superman proceeds to punch Darkseid through half the skyscrapers in downtown Metropolis.

I think they mentioned that the city had been mostly evacuated. I think. Could be wrong.

Jun 16, 2013#335

Covar

Looking for a good Superman story? Superman: Peace on Earth.

Jun 16, 2013#336

HCGLNS

Himmel! Vos is diss?

Jun 16, 2013#337

Enresshou

Just got back from watching it with the fiancé. Both of us thought it was fantastic, with the exception that there seemed to be very little romantic (though plenty of platonic/buddy) chemistry between Superman and Lois.

In particular, I really enjoyed the opening being the final day of Krypton. While I felt there wasn't a very heavy emphasis on the relationship with his mother, and that they could have done a bit more with the "two parents, two worlds" thing, I thought they did the relationship between Clark and Pa Kent phenomenally. Both of us were in tears when Pa allowed himself to die so that Clark wouldn't have to show his abilities.

Neither of us had any problem with Superman killing Zod. Him holding himself to a higher standard and being vehemently opposed to killing is one thing, but even more people were going to die if he didn't do anything. Zod explicitly said he wasn't going to stop until one of them was dead, and the only thing that seemed to nullify their powers was the Kryptonian atmosphere (the ability to recreate it was lost in the explosions). He seemed to be in genuine pain when he did that, so I thought it was in keeping with the spirit of the character.

Jun 16, 2013#338

bhamv3

Enresshou said:
Just got back from watching it with the fiancé. Both of us thought it was fantastic, with the exception that there seemed to be very little romantic (though plenty of platonic/buddy) chemistry between Superman and Lois.

In particular, I really enjoyed the opening being the final day of Krypton. While I felt there wasn't a very heavy emphasis on the relationship with his mother, and that they could have done a bit more with the "two parents, two worlds" thing, I thought they did the relationship between Clark and Pa Kent phenomenally. Both of us were in tears when Pa allowed himself to die so that Clark wouldn't have to show his abilities.

Neither of us had any problem with Superman killing Zod. Him holding himself to a higher standard and being vehemently opposed to killing is one thing, but even more people were going to die if he didn't do anything. Zod explicitly said he wasn't going to stop until one of them was dead, and the only thing that seemed to nullify their powers was the Kryptonian atmosphere (the ability to recreate it was lost in the explosions). He seemed to be in genuine pain when he did that, so I thought it was in keeping with the spirit of the character.

Regarding Superman's anguish after killing Zod, I thought they also could've handled that better.

Throughout the movie, it's made clear that Pa Kent's overall message to Clark isn't "Do good and preserve the sanctity of life above all else," it's "Don't reveal your powers too soon, because you'll be feared and hated." It doesn't look like Clark's ever really taught to preserve life. For example, that scene where young Clark's surrounded by bullies after they knock him down. Afterwards, Clark admits he wanted to hit them, and Jonathan said, "Yes, and part of me wanted you to too, but think of what would happen afterwards." Shouldn't Pa Kent be saying something more like, "Dude, you'd be able to knock the guy's head into the next state, and that's a VERY BAD THING."

Additionally, there's Superman's willingness to risk or outright kill bystanders during a fight. Overall, the movie does not really show Superman respecting the sanctity of life.

So, when Superman kills Zod and falls to his knees screaming in anguish, it seems like a non sequitur out of left field. I actually felt more like he was upset that he'd lost the last remaining Kryptonian other than him, rather than him being devastated that he took a life.

Jun 16, 2013#339

Enresshou

bhamv3 said:
Regarding Superman's anguish after killing Zod, I thought they also could've handled that better.

Throughout the movie, it's made clear that Pa Kent's overall message to Clark isn't "Do good and preserve the sanctity of life above all else," it's "Don't reveal your powers too soon, because you'll be feared and hated." It doesn't look like Clark's ever really taught to preserve life. For example, that scene where young Clark's surrounded by bullies after they knock him down. Afterwards, Clark admits he wanted to hit them, and Jonathan said, "Yes, and part of me wanted you to too, but think of what would happen afterwards." Shouldn't Pa Kent be saying something more like, "Dude, you'd be able to knock the guy's head into the next state, and that's a VERY BAD THING."

Additionally, there's Superman's willingness to risk or outright kill bystanders during a fight. Overall, the movie does not really show Superman respecting the sanctity of life.

So, when Superman kills Zod and falls to his knees screaming in anguish, it seems like a non sequitur out of left field. I actually felt more like he was upset that he'd lost the last remaining Kryptonian other than him, rather than him being devastated that he took a life.

I think that being taught to preserve life, though, is fairly implicit in his upbringing (just like most peoples'). I'm not arguing that there was a heavy emphasis on the sanctity of life in Pa Kent's teachings, just that the main rub a lot of people seem to be crying foul on--Superman killing Zod--is in line with the general interpretation of the character. I don't think an explicit emphasis on "not hurting people" was necessary because it's fairly obvious that he could seriously harm anybody he chose to. Both he and Clark know that (and it's fairly obvious to the viewers), so I think instead the emphasis was placed on the father protecting his son by having him restrain his powers. I do agree with the lack of concern for civilian life in Smallville. In Metropolis, though, I don't think there was much of a choice (although I feel another nitpick was the action sequences went on for a little too long. I felt like they had to have destroyed every building in the city by the end of it.

Jun 16, 2013#340

Nile

I'll see it when it goes to budget theaters, just because I do love Superman... I'm not expecting a whole lot, but it is a Snyder movie, so at least it'll be exciting.

I'll have to see it alone, though... The wife hates Superman with a passion

And I don't have any movie buddies out here yet.

About Superman killing Zod... I'll wait to see how it's played before I make any more judgments. My idea of Superman is that he will do everything in his power to avoid the situation; but in the end, no matter how much it breaks his heart, he'll do what's best for the people of Earth. If there's an enemy that he can't restrain, that he can't reason with, that has made it their mission to hurt him by killing as many people as possible... He would do what's necessary to keep the people safe, despite the stain on his soul. That being said, he'll never stop trying to uphold the ideal of peace, no matter how much the world tries to break him.

Jun 17, 2013#341

Covar

On the subject of good Superman stories, Scott Synder (no relation to Zack) and Jim Lee's Superman Unchained came out last week. It's a pretty good first issue.

Jun 17, 2013#342

Fun Size

I have to say that, despite the smattering of vitriol, I love these threads. I love to see how fans and those unfamiliar with the source material respond to these things.

Also, I'll look up some of those stories. For the most part I really don't get into most superhero stuff, but you guys have directed me to some things I've enjoyed before.

Jun 17, 2013#343

ScytheRexx

For some reason, all this talk reminded me of this...

Jun 17, 2013#344

Bowielee

Jun 18, 2013#345

Espy

Needs more bullets.

Jun 18, 2013#346

SpecialKO

I don't know what those are, but they're fucking hilarious.

Jun 18, 2013#347

Bowielee

SpecialKO said:
I don't know what those are, but they're fucking hilarious.

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/linkara/at4w/3252-superman-at-earths-end

Jun 18, 2013#348

Tress

SpecialKO said:
I don't know what those are, but they're fucking hilarious.

They are everything that was wrong with comics in the '90s.

Jun 18, 2013#349

GasBandit

I notice no feet in those comics...

Jun 18, 2013#350

Espy

So keep in mind, I probably own more Superman comics than most people here. I'm sure Nick has me beat but I'm a giant DC nerd (although in the last 5-6 years I've grown weary of the great cycle of comics and kind of moved on from collecting most of them).

I loved it. I have no problem with anything that happened in this movie. A) It's a very ~~realistic~~ real-ish or "good film" take on Superman and I don't think it's overly gritty. It was hopeful. It showed the anguish of having only bad choices in front of you. I feel like it absolutely kept with the basic idea of Superman while creating a good palette to work from in future movies.

Now you can argue I'm not so attached to the character as some might be, and thats probably true. I really don't mind even my childhood heroes being changed/updated/modified to fit a good story as long as the fundamentals are there and I fell Snyder and Nolan did that. I do understand why some don't care for it. I didn't care for the Hellboy/Liz angle of Del Toro's Hellboy movies. But, eh, thats life. Del Toro didn't ask my opinion nor did he care. It was his story to tell and he did a great job so I can overlook something that wasn't my preference, but I get that some cannot.

Anyway, it was pretty fantastic, maybe 15-20 minutes to long and the couple jokes towards the end were kind of flat. Thats my biggest issues. Cavill was fantastic and so was, well, everyone. Bravo guys. This is the Superman film I've been waiting for since Superman 2.

Jun 18, 2013#351

Frank

Henry Cavill has pecs that cast a shadow halfway down his torso. His new name is Pecules.

Jun 18, 2013#352

Espy

For real.

Jun 19, 2013#353

Gilgamesh

Ok was noonelse bothered by the fact that Henry Cavill's chest hair was trying to escape his suit? Seriously man, a little wax goes a long way. As for -real men have chest hair-? Sure, except when it's so long it pokes out the top of a full body suit.

Jun 19, 2013#354

bhamv3

Gilgamesh said:
Ok was noonelse bothered by the fact that Henry Cavill's chest hair was trying to escape his suit? Seriously man, a little wax goes a long way. As for -real men have chest hair-? Sure, except when it's so long it pokes out the top of a full body suit.

I noticed it, but it didn't really bother me. My wife, though, was grossed out.

Jun 19, 2013#355

Ravenpoe

Gilgamesh said:
Ok was noonelse bothered by the fact that Henry Cavill's chest hair was trying to escape his suit? Seriously man, a little wax goes a long way. As for -real men have chest hair-? Sure, except when it's so long it pokes out the top of a full body suit.

You don't just wax super chest hair. He probably tried burning it off in a nuclear reactor, and finally gave up.

There's a reason he doesn't wear the underwear anymore.

Jun 19, 2013#356

Frank

Gilgamesh said:
Ok was noonelse bothered by the fact that Henry Cavill's chest hair was trying to escape his suit? Seriously man, a little wax goes a long way. As for -real men have chest hair-? Sure, except when it's so long it pokes out the top of a full body suit.

I've not heard a SINGLE woman I know dislike his chest hair.

Jun 19, 2013#357

strawman

Frank said:
I've not heard a SINGLE woman I know dislike his chest hair.

I wonder if it would make a difference if that woman were married.

Jun 19, 2013#358

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
I've not heard a SINGLE woman I know dislike his chest hair.

bhamv3 said:
I noticed it, but it didn't really bother me. My wife, though, was grossed out.

As well as my wife, and a two other women whom I've spoken/watched the film with were all pretty put off.

Jun 19, 2013#359

bhamv3

I feel I should point out that my wife's Taiwanese, and she's very much more accustomed to Asian hairless bodies. In fact, that's one of the reasons she's attracted to me, I'm smooth even by Asian standards.

Jun 19, 2013#360

Gilgamesh

bhamv3 said:
I feel I should point out that my wife's Taiwanese, and she's very much more accustomed to Asian hairless bodies. In fact, that's one of the reasons she's attracted to me, I'm smooth even by Asian standards.

My wife is Hispanic, they're a hairy culture so it's not really that.
When he was shirtless, it was almost ok and most girls would find that attractive. It's simply the gross way it was sticking out over the suit. Basically it looked like he was one of those fat italian guys who sits at a restaurant with his chest hair spilling out of his top unbuttoned shirt eating pasta.

Jun 19, 2013#361

Charlie Don't Surf

Gilgamesh said:
My wife is Hispanic, they're a hairy culture .

fyi, this is now my new favorite Halforums quote of all time

Jun 19, 2013#362

Gilgamesh

Charlie Don't Surf said:
fyi, this is now my new favorite Halforums quote of all time

Well so am I (hispanic), so I guess it works. :thumbsup:

Jun 19, 2013#363

Ravenpoe

Gilgamesh said:
Well so am I (hispanic), so I guess it works.

Pfft, you think your ancestral people are hairy? I'm a mix of hebrew, german and nordic.

Jun 19, 2013#364

fade

Ravenpoe said:
Pfft, you think your ancestral people are hairy? I'm a mix of hebrew, german and nordic.

So... he-man-dick?

wait.

Jun 19, 2013#365

Ravenpoe

fade said:
So... he-man-dick?

wait.

Why yes, in fact.

Jun 19, 2013#366

Tress

Ravenpoe said:
Pfft, you think your ancestral people are hairy? I'm a mix of hebrew, german and nordic.

You must be a furball.

Jun 19, 2013#367

Cheesy1

Jun 19, 2013#368

Covar

Gilgamesh said:
Sure, except when it's so long it pokes out the top of a full body suit.

Mandarin Collar would have fixed that :Leyla:

Jun 19, 2013#369

Bubble181

Tress said:
You must be a furball.

I'd never have guessed him for a Gasbandit alt. Huh.

Jun 19, 2013#370

fade

Ravenpoe said:
Why yes, in fact.

I have so many scenarios running through my mind. Mostly of your penis invoking the Power of Grayskull to become erect.

Jun 21, 2013#370

figmentPez

Warning: ThatNickGuy might want to sit down before checking out this variant "Man of Steel" statuette... or maybe he should just not look at it at all.

Jun 21, 2013#371

ThatNickGuy

figmentPez said:
Warning: ThatNickGuy might want to sit down before checking out this variant "Man of Steel" statuette... or maybe he should just not look at it at all.

"Guys, guys, GUYS! Superman's not EXXXXXXXXXXTREME enough! We need more Xs! And SKULLS!"

Did I use enough Xs there? I always want to be sure.

Jun 21, 2013#372

Gilgamesh

ThatNickGuy said:
"Guys, guys, GUYS! Superman's not EXXXXXXXXXXTREME enough! We need more Xs! And SKULLS!"

Did I use enough Xs there? I always want to be sure.

Funny enough, it's based on a scene from the movie >_<

Jun 21, 2013#373

bhamv3

So... it's Superman with the Venom symbiote?

Jun 21, 2013#374

Gilgamesh

I could see this for sure. Especially after the

Lexcorp nod in the film

Jun 21, 2013#375

bhamv3

Luthor's definitely going to be a part of the second film. He's too iconic to leave out.

Not sure about the third part, though it would be interesting to see.

Jun 21, 2013#376

fade

Not sure how Doomsday would translate to film. Unlike Bane, he's a pretty boring villain.

Jun 21, 2013#377

ScytheRexx

fade said:
Not sure how Doomsday would translate to film. Unlike Bane, he's a pretty boring villain.

I don't know, I found the DKR version of Bane to be pretty boring too. He turned out just being the really strong flunky in the end.

I was thinking Darkseid would be better then Doomsday, but then I realized they would likely save him for a Justice League movie. They could have it that Brainiac is the mastermind behind bringing Doomsday to Earth, allowing him to appear through most of the movie doing his methodical planning, though depending on how they present him he could be just as boring.

Jun 23, 2013#378

filmfanatic

Anyone remember Max Landis' Death and Return of Superman video? Here's a new vid from him talking about his thoughts regarding Man of Steel.

Jun 23, 2013#379

figmentPez

filmfanatic said:
Anyone remember Max Landis' Death and Return of Superman video? Here's a new vid from him talking about his thoughts regarding Man of Steel.

That rant is really dickish. If he has to insult and misrepresent other superheroes in order to make Superman look good, then he doesn't understand Superman nearly as well as he thinks he does. He's the type of idiot who thinks he has to call other women ugly for the woman he's complimenting to feel pretty. He's got some bits and pieces of good points, but his presentation and conclusions are so mean-spirited and egotistical that I I barely was able to sit through what he was saying. No one should listen to this guy because he's an ass.

Jun 23, 2013#380

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
That rant is really dickish. If he has to insult and misrepresent other superheroes in order to make Superman look good, then he doesn't understand Superman nearly as well as he thinks he does. He's the type of idiot who thinks he has to call other women ugly for the woman he's complimenting to feel pretty. He's got some bits and pieces of good points, but his presentation and conclusions are so mean-spirited and egotistical that I I barely was able to sit through what he was saying. No one should listen to this guy because he's an ass.

He's doing it for sharp contrast and entertainment. And you can't be an ass for insulting a fictional character, I really don't think Spider-Man's feelings are going to be hurt.

Jun 24, 2013#381

BananaHands

Ravenpoe said:
He's doing it for sharp contrast and entertainment. And you can't be an ass for insulting a fictional character, I really don't think Spider-Man's feelings are going to be hurt.

Jun 24, 2013#382

ThatNickGuy

I think I'm going to break down and go see Man of Steel tonight. A large part of me still doesn't know if I can handle THAT moment in the third act. That's just not my Superman. The whole third act sounds more like something out of The Authority than Superman.

But all my friends are gushing about it, so maybe I'm missing something? I don't know. I'm going to be torn about going to see it all day. I HATE the fact that there's a new Superman movie out and I just don't have the heart to see it because it's apparently "The Superman movie we've always wanted."

Not everyone.

For me, Superman is a LOT more than just some powerful dude punching stuff.

Jun 24, 2013#383

Gilgamesh

ThatNickGuy said:
I think I'm going to break down and go see Man of Steel tonight. A large part of me still doesn't know if I can handle THAT moment in the third act. That's just not my Superman. The whole third act sounds more like something out of The Authority than Superman.

But all my friends are gushing about it, so maybe I'm missing something? I don't know. I'm going to be torn about going to see it all day. I HATE the fact that there's a new Superman movie out and I just don't have the heart to see it because it's apparently "The Superman movie we've always wanted."

Not everyone.

Definitely not everyone. Just the mainstream, Michael Bay watching, Dancing With The Stars hit showing, COD BLACKS OMG, crowd Nick.... or those who don't really care about Superman mythos. Pretty much. At least 90% of the movie is enjoyable?

Jun 24, 2013#384

Covar

ThatNickGuy said:
I think I'm going to break down and go see Man of Steel tonight. A large part of me still doesn't know if I can handle THAT moment in the third act. That's just not my Superman. The whole third act sounds more like something out of The Authority than Superman.

But all my friends are gushing about it, so maybe I'm missing something? I don't know. I'm going to be torn about going to see it all day. I HATE the fact that there's a new Superman movie out and I just don't have the heart to see it because it's apparently "The Superman movie we've always wanted."

Not everyone. For me, Superman is a LOT more than just some powerful dude punching stuff.

Chris Sims has a great review of it on ComicsAlliance, There's also this piece by Andrew Wheeler which goes into good detail of why I have zero interest in ever seeing the movie.

Jun 24, 2013#385

ThatNickGuy

Welp, just had another fucking argument over the issue with a friend of mine on Facebook. And they just kept saying shit like, "Oh, well, you haven't seen it so your argument is invalid." Even just trying to talk about why I'm hesitant to see it has upset met AGAIN.

Forget it. I'm not seeing it.

Jun 24, 2013#386

Espy

Gilgamesh said:
Definitely not everyone. Just the mainstream, Michael Bay watching, Dancing With The Stars hit showing, COD BLACKS OMG, crowd Nick.... or those who don't really care about Superman mythos. Pretty much. At least 90% of the movie is enjoyable?

I'm on my phone so could someone post a giant eye-roll gif here for me?

Jun 24, 2013#387

Dave

It's not a bad movie as movies go, but think of it more like a generic super hero movie, not a superman one and you'll be good. Lots of destruction, man. Lots of destruction.

Jun 24, 2013#388

ThatNickGuy

Espy said:
I'm on my phone so could someone post a giant eye-roll gif here for me?

Why not take the time and just elaborate on what that giant eye-roll is supposed to be?

Jun 24, 2013#389

Dave

ThatNickGuy said:
Why not take the time and just elaborate on what that giant eye-roll is supposed to be?

Typing on a phone sucks. That's why I hardly ever post from my iPod.

Jun 24, 2013#390

ThatNickGuy

Dave said:
It's not a bad movie as movies go, but think of it more like a generic super hero movie, not a superman one and you'll be good. Lots of destruction, man. Lots of destruction.

See, that's not something I'm interested in seeing, especially if some of that destruction is caused by Superman directly as I hear it is. Again, that's not Superman to me. That's The Authority.

Jun 24, 2013#391

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
I'm on my phone so could someone post a giant eye-roll gif here for me?

I'm sure you can figure out which camp you're in. No need to make it any more obvious with another post.

Jun 24, 2013#392

Espy

I already said my piece abput the movie in this thread Nick. Statements like the one i quoted are just inane trollish dickery.[DOUBLEPOST=1372087860][/DOUBLEPOST]

Gilgamesh said:
I'm sure you can figure out which camp you're in. No need to make it any more obvious with another post.

Oooooooh. Someone's a big tough Internet guy.

Jun 24, 2013#393

Ravenpoe

Espy said:
Statements like the one i quoted are just inane trollish dickery.

Calling Gilgamesh an inane troll is kinda like calling water wet.

Jun 24, 2013#394

Charlie Don't Surf

I saw it. Zach Snyder couldn't hit an emotional beat to save his life. But the awe inspiring spectacle parts were very awe inspiring and spectacular.

Jun 24, 2013#395

Espy

Ravenpoe said:
Calling Gilgamesh an inane troll is kinda like calling water wet.

Well yeah, but what do we know? Lets get back to our Dancing with the Call of Duty Stars marathon!

Jun 24, 2013#396

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
Well yeah, but what do we know? Lets get back to our Dancing with the Call of Duty Stars marathon!

Hey if you put yourself in that camp, then there's nothingelse I can say.

Ravenpoe said:
Calling Gilgamesh an inane troll is kinda like calling water wet.

Your water must be pretty dry then.

Jun 24, 2013#397

BananaHands

Iron Man 3 was better.

Jun 24, 2013#398

Gilgamesh

BananaHands said:
Iron Man 3 was better.

Funny thing is, I'd actually disagree, but I posted my IM3 rant in the IM thread, so I won't go into detail here. I think Superman was the superior film, even if it wasn't a Superman movie.

Jun 24, 2013#399

MindDetective

Dave said:
It's not a bad movie as movies go, but think of it more like a generic super hero movie, not a superman one and you'll be good. Lots of destruction, man. Lots of destruction.

I commented after I saw it that it was an Alien Invasion flick with a Superman sticker on it.

Jun 24, 2013#400

BananaHands

Gilgamesh said:
Funny thing is, I'd actually disagree, but I posted my IM3 rant in the IM thread, so I won't go into detail here. I think Superman was the superior film, even if it wasn't a Superman movie.

At least Iron Man was in Iron Man 3 (albeit briefly), there was just some brooding dude in a red cape in Man of Steel.[DOUBLEPOST=1372091936][/DOUBLEPOST]Although I'll admit: Faora > Pepper.

That scene with her super-speed? Goddamn.

Jun 24, 2013#401

Tress

ThatNickGuy said:
Welp, just had another fucking argument over the issue with a friend of mine on Facebook. And they just kept saying shit like, "Oh, well, you haven't seen it so your argument is invalid." Even just trying to talk about why I'm hesitant to see it has upset met AGAIN.

Forget it. I'm not seeing it.

I say you go see it at matinee prices with the expectation you will hate it going in. Then one of two scenarios will play out:

1) You're pleasantly surprised. (unlikely)

2) You're vindicated in your argument that this movie sucks. You now have a ton of ammunition to fire at every twit who argues with you about it, and no one can hide behind the fact you haven't seen it.

Jun 24, 2013#402

Bowielee

Tress said:
I say you go see it at matinee prices with the expectation you will hate it going in. Then one of two scenarios will play out:

1) You're pleasantly surprised.

2) You're vindicated in your argument that this movie sucks. You now have a ton of ammunition to fire at every twit who argues with you about it, and no one can hide behind the fact you haven't seen it.

I honestly think Nick's head would explode if he saw it.

Jun 24, 2013#403

Tress

Bowielee said:
I honestly think Nick's head would explode if he saw it.

Oh. I didn't plan for that outcome. Don't see it then.

Jun 24, 2013#404

BananaHands

ThatNickGuy said:
Welp, just had another fucking argument over the issue with a friend of mine on Facebook. And they just kept saying shit like, "Oh, well, you haven't seen it so your argument is invalid." Even just trying to talk about why I'm hesitant to see it has upset met AGAIN.

Forget it. I'm not seeing it.

Jun 24, 2013#405

Espy

Honestly they took a concept from Byrnes run on Superman and ran with it in their context. If it's going to cause you to break down just avoid it. It's not worth it. It's just a movie.

Jun 24, 2013#406

Gusto

I was so skeptical about seeing this that a bunch of my friends went without me.

They could have at least asked.

Jun 24, 2013#407

fade

What does "deviates from superman behavior" mean? Post-crisis, Supes executed Faora et al. with green kryptonite in a pocket universe (disclaimer: haven't seen movie).

Jun 24, 2013#408

BananaHands

Espy said:
It's just a movie.

Jun 24, 2013#409

strawman

I know another person who really, really collects one particular character, and they watch, read, and listen to everything that is put out about that character, even when it directly conflicts with their view of the character.

If ThatNickGuy is anything like this person then he will be unable to avoid this, whether it's a train wreck or not. He'll have to watch it at some point, no matter how bad or wrong it is. And if you're going to put yourself through that, might as well take the chance of seeing it in the theater, alone (ie, no friends or family - just experience it without any outside influence), and then walk away knowing whether it was bad or not. Being able to dismiss it and get past it is easier than sitting there in a state of limbo, never really knowing for yourself whether it's as bad as it seems.

Of course you also have to realize that it's now forever tainted by what you've been told. You can never go into it with a clean slate and open mind, so it probably doesn't matter whether it's good or not - to nick it'll be bad no matter what.

But he'll know.

And that, as we all know, is half the battle.

Jun 24, 2013#410

figmentPez

fade said:
What does "deviates from superman behavior" mean? Post-crisis, Supes executed Faora et al. with green kryptonite in a pocket universe (disclaimer: haven't seen movie).

He also tried to kill the Cyborg/Hank Henshaw, but no one has responded to that. Apparently it's okay for Superman to have the intent to kill if he doesn't actually succeed.

Jun 24, 2013#411

Dave

Just think of it as one of the Infinity worlds where Supes is just a little different and really, it has nothing to do with Supes as much as the times in which it is set.

The original Superman is set in a more quaint time and his parents teach him to basically love life & trust in humankind. In this iteration, it is filled with the kinds of pessimism we are currently used to seeing in our media. Don't trust the government or anyone else as they will try and use you for their own ends. There's something to be said for this in today's fairly xenophobic society, and that's directly reflected in this Superman and reinforced by Pa Kent, who

allows himself to be killed rather than to let Clark reveal his powers.

This is a pessimistic take on a Superman who isn't as enamored with humanity and doesn't fully trust them. Possibly this could be what the series is about - how Superman stopped being just a powerful being into something we could all aspire to.

Jun 24, 2013#412

BananaHands

Jun 24, 2013#413

ThatNickGuy

fade said:
What does "deviates from superman behavior" mean? Post-crisis, Supes executed Faora et al. with green kryptonite in a pocket universe (disclaimer: haven't seen movie).

For one, that was hated by a lot of people, both writers and fans, at the time. So much so that John Byrne left the book. Second, it absolutely mentally broke Superman. He had a complete breakdown and left Earth for awhile as a result because he felt his instability was harmful. Three, it was pretty much written out of continuity some years later, basically once DC decided that the version of Supergirl that came from that didn't exist. There are a LOT of people who disagree with that, including many top writers like Mark Waid and Grand Morrison.

As for Superman II, I've said it several times, already. One: no body, no death. That's super villain defeat rule #1. Who's to say he doesn't have a giant net or something down there in case Lois were to slip and fall? Two, there is a deleted scene showing them being arrested. The scene was included in Richard Donner's director's cut, which makes me assume that he intended on using it if he hadn't been forced out by the producers and the second director took over.

Also, that's still my favourite Superman moment of all time. Just how he he manages to win when you think he's lost, outsmarting the bad guy at what seems like his weakest moment. The way the music slowly comes up, along with Stamp's reaction to his hand being crushed? Still love it.

Jun 24, 2013#414

Bowielee

We want vengeance superman, not justice superman.

Silly people believing that a super hero should care about civilians.

Jun 24, 2013#415

strawman

ThatNickGuy said:
no body, no death

Out of curiosity what was superman's intent at that point? Is superman aware of this rule, and thus believes that he's not killing? You and the movie going public may believe the rule, and thus there isn't an actual killing, but what we're talking about is whether the character died or not, but whether superman's intent was to kill.

Jun 24, 2013#416

Bowielee

As for Hank Henshaw. Yes, that is one villain that Superman had to destroy to stop him. Henshaw was literally about to destroy the entire planet and there was literally no way to contain him. Warworld was essentially an entire planet of technology for him to escape into. I've said this already, it's not that Superman killed at all, it's that he did it when there were other options available, like moving his body a little bit. That's hardly him being forced into killing.[DOUBLEPOST=1372100467][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:
Out of curiosity what was superman's intent at that point? Is superman aware of this rule, and thus believes that he's not killing? You and the movie going public may believe the rule, and thus there isn't an actual killing, but what we're talking about is whether the character died or not, but whether superman's intent was to kill.

That hinges largely on whether or not they lived. The fortress of solitude is his home. he'd be the one who would know how deep those cravasses are and whether or not there is anything down there to break their fall. If they lived, the fall was non fatal, and superman would have known that.

Jun 24, 2013#417

ThatNickGuy

stienman said:
Out of curiosity what was superman's intent at that point? Is superman aware of this rule, and thus believes that he's not killing? You and the movie going public may believe the rule, and thus there isn't an actual killing, but what we're talking about is whether the character died or not, but whether superman's intent was to kill.

I doubt he intended to kill them and don't think he actually did, as I said about the deleted scene. Who the hell knows what throwing them into the pit did. Like I said, for all we know, there's a giant net down there or something. But given the portrayal that Donner and Reeve were giving us, I don't think his intention was to kill.

Jun 24, 2013#418

Covar

The major sins of Man of Steel are that Zod is right all along and Superman proves his point for him, and that Earth would have been better off if the rocket had never landed on Earth. The issue is not so much the what happened as what it means.

Jun 24, 2013#419

GasBandit

I have to say this thread led to a very pleasant afternoon of browsing superdickery.com .

Jun 24, 2013#420

Bowielee

12 seconds in. Zod, Ursa, and Non being lead away from the fortress of solitude.

Jun 24, 2013#421

Covar

I need to watch the Donner Cut at some point.

Jun 24, 2013#422

Gilgamesh

ThatNickGuy said:
I doubt he intended to kill them and don't think he actually did, as I said about the deleted scene. Who the hell knows what throwing them into the pit did. Like I said, for all we know, there's a giant net down there or something. But given the portrayal that Donner and Reeve were giving us, I don't think his intention was to kill.

stienman just won't let it go Nick. He doesn't understand (or doesn't want to) that Superman was well aware that they weren't going to die, hence the Donner cut has the footage of the arrest (which clearly shows that the director had every intention of showing that Superman was aware he wasn't killing). It was his intent that if they fell, they wouldn't die and would be available for capture.

Jun 24, 2013#423

BananaHands

Covar said:
The major sins of Man of Steel are that Zod is right all along and Superman proves his point for him, and that Earth would have been better off if the rocket had never landed on Earth. The issue is not so much the what happened as what it means.

I can certainly see Lex's point of view from the destruction Supes caused.

Jun 24, 2013#424

Dave

Looks to me like Supes knew the cops were there and that's why the blase attitude.

Jun 24, 2013#425

GasBandit

Does the US actually have police jurisdiction of the North Pole?

Jun 24, 2013#426

fade

GasBandit said:
Does the US actually have police jurisdiction of the North Pole?

I'd make a Santa Clause joke, but Tim Allen already ruined it.

Jun 24, 2013#427

GasBandit

Even the man of steel would be helpless against Baby-Armor-Man!

Jun 24, 2013#428

BananaHands

GasBandit said:
Does the US actually have police jurisdiction of the North Pole?

I just imagined the chief in metropolis getting a call from Superman.

"Uh, yeah? No, that's not reall--- Look, we don't even have the equipme--- I don't care if Lex is there, it's still no--- Look, Supes, we have this thing on planet Earth with juris---. Okay, fine. Whatever."[DOUBLEPOST=1372102311][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
Even the man of steel would be helpless against Baby-Armor-Man!

Jun 24, 2013#429

Gilgamesh

Yeah the police in Antarctica is pretty hilarious.

Jun 24, 2013#430

strawman

Gilgamesh said:
stienman just won't let it go Nick.

I didn't realize I was harping on it. Sorry to have bothered you.

Jun 24, 2013#431

BananaHands

stienman said:
I didn't realize I was harping on it. Sorry to have bothered you.

oooh sometimes stienman i wish superman would just kill you!

no i don't.

Jun 24, 2013#432

figmentPez

Bowielee said:
As for Hank Henshaw. Yes, that is one villain that Superman had to destroy to stop him. Henshaw was literally about to destroy the entire planet and there was literally no way to contain him. Warworld was essentially an entire planet of technology for him to escape into. I've said this already, it's not that Superman killed at all, it's that he did it when there were other options available, like moving his body a little bit. That's hardly him being forced into killing.

So, if Superman killing Zod in the movie had been set up better, you'd be okay with that?

If the answer is "no, there's never a situation where Superman can't stop a small army of opponents with power levels equal to his own; and stop them quickly enough to prevent the destruction of Metropolis in the process (as that video suggests that Superman allowing the city to be destroyed is even worse than killing)" then you've created a very boring character. If Superman is so perfect that even when faced with forces greater than himself, that he can still protect everyone and be everything without being forced to take extreme measures, then there's no tension. Superman just wins, there are no consequences and you're just pulling a deus ex machina to allow Superman to be impossibly perfect.

Superman is a character liked by everyone (except the villains, and even most of those respect him), is charismatic, handsome, super-powerful, morally upright, accomplished at his job, kind to animals, etc. This has the potential to be a Mary Sue character if not handled correctly. The tension comes form "Can Superman connect to humanity, and save them without becoming an evil despot?" and if the answer is "Yes, unequivocally, and easily, in any situation, with no hesitation, duh!" Then he is just a Mary Sue. If there isn't a situation where Superman can fail to live up to the perfection he strives for, then he's an incredibly boring character.

That's not to say that Superman has to be forced to kill every villain in order to be a good character. Personally I like it when heroes outsmart the villains, and come up with the creative solution to win. (That's what I want to see in a Flash movie). However, I think there's a big difference between "I think Superman is at his best when he finds a way to avoid killing, and the writing shows Superman being better than anyone has to be, finding a solution that saves the day, and protects his ideals as well." and "Superman just doesn't kill, okay, never ever, never, duh!" I find it much better to point out that Superman is at his best when he's a source of optimism and hope, rather than pointing to some absolute that's never existed in comics and leads to Superman acting dumb as a brick and failing to protect people in some comics (Superman Vs Aliens).

Jun 24, 2013#433

BananaHands

figmentPez said:
...you're just pulling a deus ex machina to allow Superman to be impossibly perfect.

Well, in all fairness, they've been doing that for 75 years.

Jun 24, 2013#434

Bowielee

I swear to god that no one is even reading my posts before responding to them.

Jun 24, 2013#435

BananaHands

Bowielee said:
I swear to god that no one is even reading my posts before responding to them.

Thank you, I got it cut on Wednesday. Decided to go a bit shorter than usual.

Jun 24, 2013#436

Covar

Bowielee said:
I swear to god that no one is even reading my posts before responding to them.

Oh you say that, but why see the movie at all then?

Jun 24, 2013#437

HCGLNS

ThatNickGuy if you're in town in July and still haven't seen the movie, I'll go with you and I promise to scream "I can't believe this guy is fucking Gina Carano!" during inappropriate times throughout the show.

As to the whole Superman killing thing, to me when he is being sold to children he never kills, when sold to adults he kills boatloads.

Jun 24, 2013#438

mikerc

Covar said:
The major sins of Man of Steel are that Zod is right all along and Superman proves his point for him, and that Earth would have been better off if the rocket had never landed on Earth. The issue is not so much the what happened as what it means.

Er, how was Zod right all along? That Earth would have been better off if Superman wasn't there? Nope. Earth would have been better off if Zod had never attacked. Supes isn't responsible for Zod's actions, only Zod is.

On a (hopefully) less controversial note did anyone else like that

Lois Lane worked out that the mysterious superpowered alien was Clark Kent based off 1 encounter with him & then tracking back all the stories about him to find out who he is. It really sold that she was a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter as opposed to other adaptations which just told you she was & expected you to take their word for it.

Jun 24, 2013#439

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I swear to god that no one is even reading my posts before responding to them.

No, I don't recommend the lasagna.

Jun 24, 2013#440

Espy

mroosc1979 said:
Er, how was Zod right all along? That Earth would have been better off if Superman wasn't there? Nope. Earth would have been better off if Zod had never attacked. Supes isn't responsible for Zod's actions, only Zod is.

On a (hopefully) less controversial note did anyone else like that

Lois Lane worked out that the mysterious superpowered alien was Clark Kent based off 1 encounter with him & then tracking back all the stories about him to find out who he is. It really sold that she was a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter as opposed to other adaptations which just told you she was & expected you to take their word for it.

Also it totally got rid of any issues with the audience having to believe that she couldn't figure out who Clark was because of GLASSES. I loved that they just dealt with it and showed us how brilliant she is.

Jun 24, 2013#441

Steve

Max Landis states his opinion on the movie. He's not a fan.

Jun 24, 2013#442

Espy

Who the hell is Max Landis?

Jun 24, 2013#443

filmfanatic

Espy said:
Who the hell is Max Landis?

He directed the web video "Death and Return of Superman" and also wrote the script for the film Chronicle. He's also been writing for DC Comics, working on Action Comics.

Jun 24, 2013#444

HCGLNS

Espy said:
Who the hell is Max Landis?

The son of two fantastically successful Hollywood moguls.

Jun 24, 2013#445

ThatNickGuy

Steve said:
Max Landis states his opinion on the movie. He's not a fan.

Welcome to two pages ago.

Jun 24, 2013#446

strawman

Hey, guys, guys!

DC approved superman killing Zod!

It's cannon!

Woo!

Jun 24, 2013#447

ThatNickGuy

stienman said:
Hey, guys, guys!

DC approved superman killing Zod!

It's cannon!

Woo!

Link? Source? Proof?

Eh, hardly matters. The New 52 Superman proves that DC wants him to be cooler and edgier.

Jun 24, 2013#448

strawman

I got that gossip from http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...pproved-of-man-of-steels-controversial-ending

But I'm sure DC retained enough control to have veto power over things like this.

Jun 24, 2013#449

Bowielee

Zach Snyder said:
If there were more adventures for our Superman to go on, you’re given this thing where, you don’t know 100 percent what he’s going to do. When you put in stone the concept that he won’t kill, and it’s totally in stone, it really erases an option in the viewer’s mind…you’ll always have in the back of your mind, ‘How far can you push him?’ If he sees Lois get hurt, or his mother get killed, you just made a really mad Superman that we know is capable of some really horrible stuff, if he wants to be. That’s the thing that’s cool about him, in some ways. The idea that he has the frailties of a human emotionally. But you don’t want to get that guy mad

He just described the origin of every evil alternate version of Superman existence.

Jun 24, 2013#450

Ravenpoe

ThatNickGuy said:
Link? Source? Proof?

Eh, hardly matters. The New 52 Superman proves that DC wants him to be cooler and edgier.

That always works out.

Jun 24, 2013#451

HCGLNS

Would a neck snap even kill a Kryptonian? I personally would have gone with punching the engine block of a BF-109 Messerschmitt through his spine.

Jun 24, 2013#452

HCGLNS

Gilgamesh said:
Yeah the police in Antarctica is pretty hilarious.

Jun 24, 2013#453

bhamv3

Personally I believe Superman would sooner stick his hand into Zod's heat beam and try to physically stop the beam than take a life with his own bare hands.

The idea that Superman would kill his opponent if there's no choice is not anathema to me. It can happen, and having Superman make that choice is an interesting direction to take the character. However, the execution of that scene was poor. If you're going to make Superman break his no-killing rule, you'd better make it worthwhile. Zach Snyder didn't, in this case.

Jun 24, 2013#454

Gilgamesh

Oh and for all of those saying that maybe this is the downward spiral of great movies where he becomes the greater Superman? Yeah like 5 minutes later they show him joking with the military to leave him alone. Smirking and making jokes the whole time.

Yeah he's really emotionally wrecked there. :rolleyes:

Jun 24, 2013#455

strawman

Well, PTSD isn't instantaneous, and people in shock immediately after traumatic events do sometimes flip through a number of emotional states that seem to contrast sharply with what you, the viewer, might think they should be experiencing.

Jun 25, 2013#456

Gilgamesh

stienman said:
Well, PTSD isn't instantaneous, and people in shock immediately after traumatic events do sometimes flip through a number of emotional states that seem to contrast sharply with what you, the viewer, might think they should be experiencing.

It wasn't an instantaneous scene, it's obviously months after. Especially with the way Snyder was cutting time passing in that film from scene to scene with no transition.

Jun 25, 2013#457

bhamv3

Gilgamesh said:
It wasn't an instantaneous scene, it's obviously months after. Especially with the way Snyder was cutting time passing in that film from scene to scene with no transition.

I dunno about months, seemed more like a day or two at most for me. It's unlikely the government would wait months to start searching for Superman's background, more likely they'd start immediately. And it's unlikely it'd take months for Superman to realize they're looking for him.

Also, remember in that scene he's meant to be nonchalantly threatening the general. "Stop looking for me, or else it won't turn out good for you guys." It'd be counterproductive to be emo.

Jun 25, 2013#458

Gilgamesh

bhamv3 said:
I dunno about months, seemed more like a day or two at most for me. It's unlikely the government would wait months to start searching for Superman's background, more likely they'd start immediately. And it's unlikely it'd take months for Superman to realize they're looking for him.

The way Snyder was cutting his movie, it seemed more like a day or two that Lois was able to figure out who Clark was, when obviously it was much longer. It is also unlikely that the government knew where to look right away so Supes most likely let them nose around a while till it got uncomfortable THEN he came and the scene happened.

Also, remember in that scene he's meant to be nonchalantly threatening the general. "Stop looking for me, or else it won't turn out good for you guys." It'd be counterproductive to be emo.

PTSD isn't something you control/turn off/on

Jun 25, 2013#459

bhamv3

Gilgamesh said:
The way Snyder was cutting his movie, it seemed more like a day or two that Lois was able to figure out who Clark was, when obviously it was much longer. It is also unlikely that the government knew where to look right away so Supes most likely let them nose around a while till it got uncomfortable THEN he came and the scene happened.

Yeah, I suppose it's up to each viewer to interpret as they want. It seemed closer to days than to months, for me.

EDIT: I just remembered that the first great super-powered battle in this particular canon took place in Smallville. Given how the government's presence is definitely going to be felt around the area for a while, with the rebuilding and all, and given how multiple people know of Clark Kent showing weird tendencies in the past, it probably wouldn't take long for someone in the government or military to put two and two together. So I still think it took less than months.

Gilgamesh said:
PTSD isn't something you control/turn off/on

Nor is it, as far as I know, something that manifests 24/7. He could be traumatized by his experience, yet still be able to carry on a civil conversation with the general.

Having said that though, I'm actually agreeing with you that Superman didn't seem too choked up about killing Zod. The director and screenwriters probably wanted him to be, but they didn't convey it very well.

Jun 25, 2013#460

Hailey Knight

To pull off what the director wanted to do, he would've needed to be more talented director.

Jun 25, 2013#461

sixpackshaker

Snyder needs to find a collaborator. He can handle the visuals and the collaborator can handle the actual acting...

Jun 25, 2013#462

HCGLNS

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/original-superman-star-interrupts-man-573843

Jun 26, 2013#463

drawn_inward

I have avoided this thread until I watched MoS. I thought it was pretty good. I don't get the crowd that is saying "that if I like Michael Bay then you will like MoS."

I thought Michael Shannon was great, as well as the rest of his group.
Russell Crowe was stoic.
Superman (don't know the actor) was pretty good.
Lois Lane - the acting was ok, but her part was way way too big.
I did like Kevin Costner and Diane Lane.

I didn't care for the cliched stuff: Supes kissing, her running to Grand Central, tough-guy military dude, etc.

Also, I couldn't care less about Perry White et al. that should've been cut.

I also didn't like that it felt like Independence Day in a few scenes.

Overall, I'd give it 3.5/5.

Jun 27, 2013#464

Gilgamesh

http://screencrush.com/man-of-steel-christopher-reeve/

Jun 27, 2013#465

MindDetective

Gilgamesh said:
http://screencrush.com/man-of-steel-christopher-reeve/

Hmm...I think no, personally.

Jun 27, 2013#466

bhamv3

Gilgamesh said:
http://screencrush.com/man-of-steel-christopher-reeve/

It's... plausible. I think.

Jun 30, 2013#467

Jax

drawn_inward said:
I have avoided this thread until I watched MoS. I thought it was pretty good. I don't get the crowd that is saying "that if I like Michael Bay then you will like MoS."

Same here, I also enjoyed it very much. Fortunately for me, I don't have an uncompromising vision of Superman, so that certainly helps

Jun 30, 2013#468

Gilgamesh

Jax said:
Same here, I also enjoyed it very much. Fortunately for me, I don't have an uncompromising vision of Superman, so that certainly helps

I think the quote was if you like Michael Bay OR if you don't have much of attachment for Superman you'll like Man of Steel.

Jun 30, 2013#469

Jax

Are you from the quote police or something?

Jun 30, 2013#470

Gilgamesh

Jax said:
Are you from the quote police or something?

Yep.

Jun 30, 2013#471

Espy

I've heard that before. Lets see a badge.

Jul 3, 2013#472

evilmike

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that because of

Zod's plan to transform the Earth into a new Krypton.

He is yet another Superman movie villain whose master plan centers around real estate.

Jul 3, 2013#473

HCGLNS

Otisberg?

Jul 3, 2013#474

Chad Sexington

evilmike said:
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that because of

Zod's plan to transform the Earth into a new Krypton.

He is yet another Superman movie villain whose master plan centers around real estate.

I always loved that Lex speech, and I still sometimes quote it for no reason at all. "It's the one thing they're not making more of."

Jul 6, 2013#475

strawman

Superman is the lie we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night...

Jul 9, 2013#476

ThatNickGuy

So I'm finally breaking down and seeing it tonight. We'll see if I can watch it without walking out in the third act.

Jul 9, 2013#477

HCGLNS

Just to make it easier, buddy what his name is no longer dating Gina Carano.

Jul 9, 2013#478

SpecialKO

Saw it last weekend. Best Mr. Majestic movie I've ever seen.

Jul 9, 2013#479

Frank

HCGLNS said:
Just to make it easier, buddy what his name is no longer dating Gina Carano.

Yeah, he's seeing the Big Bang Theory girl who's name I do not know.

Jul 9, 2013#480

Dave

Frank said:
Yeah, he's seeing the Big Bang Theory girl who's name I do not know.

Kaley Cuoco.

Jul 9, 2013#481

ThatNickGuy

http://nickpiers.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/man-of-steel/

Here's a very long and very spoilery discussion on the movie.

Overall? I liked it. I liked it a lot, in fact. Save for THAT MOMENT at the end of the third act, it was a great Superman movie. They nailed the character, save for a couple of minor things (like a scene involving petty revenge against a trucker). Cavil and Adams are perfectly casted, as is Michael Shannon, who presents a very different Zod.

I'm still incredibly torn on THAT MOMENT, but given the circumstances and how it was presented? I can at least sort of - SORT OF - understand. In fact, I very much empathized Superman for the decision.

The action was fantastic. And honestly, 99% of the collateral damage in the movie is caused by the invading aliens. Regarding, at least, the gas station scene, I might say that Superman was blinded by rage, the cornfield they were flying through, and punching the crap out of Zod.

Jul 9, 2013#482

Espy

Honestly, the idea that a guy, who is just deciding to start pushing his powers and fight off a bunch of dudes with tons of training and HE HAS NONE is going to be far less precise than a guy who has been Superman for 10 years.
The destruction seemed very logical to me.

And as much as I felt torn about the scene you refer to? Again, inexperienced dude who made that best decision he could and is going to pay for it. I'm guessing thats where he's getting a part of his "I won't do this" creed from. From his own experience. What a crazy idea.

I really want to see this again but in Imax. I'm so happy you liked it Nick. So happy.

Jul 9, 2013#483

bhamv3

Yeah, for some reason I'm grinning with glee that Nick likes it.

It's like I can see the resurrection of the inner Superman fan.

Jul 9, 2013#484

ThatNickGuy

It's funny, too, because I went into this not expecting to hate it. I expected to hate the third act. But the movie gradually won me over.

I didn't LOVE it, but I didn't hate it, either. I liked it.

Jul 9, 2013#485

Steve

You are one of us Nick. Welcome to the fold.

Jul 9, 2013#486

Espy

I mean, at first I hated the trucker scene, but for this version of the character, one so conflicted of using his powers? It made sense. It's still a little pissy but again, this guy is new at this. I'm excited to see where they take the character.
PLUS THIS:

Jul 9, 2013#487

ThatNickGuy

Espy said:
I mean, at first I hated the trucker scene, but for this version of the character, one so conflicted of using his powers? It made sense. It's still a little pissy but again, this guy is new at this. I'm excited to see where they take the character.

I wished they'd ended it at him walking out the door. Turning the other cheek is more in sync with the Superman I know. If I re-wrote that scene, I would've had him stand there and take it, asking the guy again to leave while the asshole wears himself out trying either beat him up (like he tried) or the bully just walking off because someone's not scared of him.

But again, it was a minor thing and not something that bothered me that much in the long run.

Jul 9, 2013#488

Tiger Tsang

ThatNickGuy said:
http://nickpiers.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/man-of-steel/

Here's a very long and very spoilery discussion on the movie.

Overall? I liked it. I liked it a lot, in fact. Save for THAT MOMENT at the end of the third act, it was a great Superman movie. They nailed the character, save for a couple of minor things (like a scene involving petty revenge against a trucker). Cavil and Adams are perfectly casted, as is Michael Shannon, who presents a very different Zod.

I'm still incredibly torn on THAT MOMENT, but given the circumstances and how it was presented? I can at least sort of - SORT OF - understand. In fact, I very much empathized Superman for the decision.

The action was fantastic. And honestly, 99% of the collateral damage in the movie is caused by the invading aliens. Regarding, at least, the gas station scene, I might say that Superman was blinded by rage, the cornfield they were flying through, and punching the crap out of Zod.

Glad you finally saw it. A few things to also consider.

1. He really was on his first few days of being 'Superman'. He was learning 'on the job'. He'd 'just' learned to fly, still didn't *movie timeline-wise doesn't* know all his limits and what his powers are yet. Whether you want to go earlier Superman Movies or comics, he never spent a good training time with Jor El. He basically spent an afternoon with his Father who basically told him "You're capable of incredible things, Push yourself."

2. I think Zod, after seeing his purpose in life, The Reason he Fracking Existed end, was basically putting himself in the position of suicide by cop. People keep saying Supes should have 'Flown him out of there', except that doesn't really work. *I got you in a headlock and now I'll use my flying powers to zoom us out of here!! Well, I'll use MY flying powers to keep us right here, Kal,*

3. That headlock wasn't stopping Zod's eye movement, he could have vaporized those folks easily. With no more Phantom Zone to send him to, or other way to contain him longtime *which kind of negates 'the hands over eyes argument'*, Zod basically put him in a 'Choose A or B, I'm not going to leave you a C, Kal El'

Jul 9, 2013#489

bhamv3

Tiger Tsang said:
Glad you finally saw it. A few things to also consider.

1. He really was on his first few days of being 'Superman'. He was learning 'on the job'. He'd 'just' learned to fly, still didn't *movie timeline-wise doesn't* know all his limits and what his powers are yet. Whether you want to go earlier Superman Movies or comics, he never spent a good training time with Jor El. He basically spent an afternoon with his Father who basically told him "You're capable of incredible things, Push yourself."

2. I think Zod, after seeing his purpose in life, The Reason he Fracking Existed end, was basically putting himself in the position of suicide by cop. People keep saying Supes should have 'Flown him out of there', except that doesn't really work. *I got you in a headlock and now I'll use my flying powers to zoom us out of here!! Well, I'll use MY flying powers to keep us right here, Kal,*

3. That headlock wasn't stopping Zod's eye movement, he could have vaporized those folks easily. With no more Phantom Zone to send him to, or other way to contain him longtime *which kind of negates 'the hands over eyes argument'*, Zod basically put him in a 'Choose A or B, I'm not going to leave you a C, Kal El'

I'd personally have liked to see Superman try these other options, and fail, to establish that he really does have no choice.

Jul 9, 2013#490

Tiger Tsang

bhamv3 said:
I'd personally have liked to see Superman try these other options, and fail, to establish that he really does have no choice.

The flying thing admittedly could have been done quickly on film *Supes trying to fly out and Zod just calmly saying "No", as to the other thing, with Zod's Kryptonian Military training, he had already pretty much approached what Clark had accomplished. While I don't think Clark was thinking upon these lines, with no real counter-agent, if Clark had tried for some type of containment, Zod would have cleaned his clock. The guy was a General from an advanced culture, and all the various training that ensues, that now had super powers compared with someone that pretty much ONLY had super powers.

Thinking on it, I think Zod *could* have taken him, but having no Krypton left to fight for, and hating the person who had taken that from him, he got his ultimate suicide revenge. "I'll make you choose between them or being the last Kryptonian"

p.s. I suppose the latter could have been done with some on screen talk. But I'll stick with the fact that Zod was slowly walking his heat vision up the wall and pausing at the end, was him putting the agony of choice to clark.

Jul 10, 2013#491

filmfanatic

Jul 10, 2013#492

Dave

I still hate Clark's dad more than anything. Instead of the usual Superman version of "With great power comes great responsibility." we get "You gotta hide yourself because government!!"

Jul 10, 2013#493

Fun Size

I have to say that now that Nick's signed off, I actually feel like I need to find a way to see this in the theater now.

Also - and having not seen it, it's obviously hard to judge - from what I've heard, his dad acts like a father who understands reality. People discover a kid with superpowers, that kid will be taken away for observation and testing. Might seem silly, but until he was old enough to understand how to safely apply superpowers, I'd tell him the same thing if the other option was losing my son.

Jul 10, 2013#494

Bubble181

Dave said:
I still hate Clark's dad more than anything. Instead of the usual Superman version of "With great power comes great responsibility." we get "You gotta hide yourself because government!!"

Like the darker-grittier-edgier of this and other titles, this is just a show of the times. We're culturally turning inwards and being darker etc etc. It's a sad state of affairs, and we can only hope for a gradual return to more light hearted comedy and more honest optimism. I'm afraid we'll see nihilistic faux optimism come into vogue much sooner, though. I blame the media and modern communications for making us constantly aare of all possible dangers and disasters all over the world, and reminding us constantly - see also: politics of fear. It's in most corporations' interests to keep us afraid and gloomy - we spend more, we vote more for the right (which is economically interesting), we watch more news/tv, we take more drugs and we save less.
The "hide from government" thing is, in a way, hope-inducing. Perhaps we'll see a return to more rooting for the underdog and support for rebels/citizens fighting oppressive government/dictatorship/censorship. Most entertainment lately has been much more in favor of the State, Government, Society and Stability, rather than Freedom, Individualism, Entrepreneurship, and Standing up for Principles.

Jul 10, 2013#495

Dave

Fun Size said:
I have to say that now that Nick's signed off, I actually feel like I need to find a way to see this in the theater now.

Also - and having not seen it, it's obviously hard to judge - from what I've heard, his dad acts like a father who understands reality. People discover a kid with superpowers, that kid will be taken away for observation and testing. Might seem silly, but until he was old enough to understand how to safely apply superpowers, I'd tell him the same thing if the other option was losing my son.

A situation arises where a bunch of kids are in immediate and mortal danger. Young Clark saves them all. His dad is mad at him for using his powers. Clark asks, "Should I have just let them all die?" Dad responds, "Maybe."

That's not an ideal that I want someone teaching an overpowered man-child. In fact, dad lets himself die rather than let Clark use his powers. "With great power comes great fear." is apparently the takeaway.

Jul 10, 2013#496

Fun Size

Your son has the power to save countless people, assuming you raise him correctly, or you let him use his powers now but promptly get taken by the government, who would undoubtedly fuck him up and use him for whatever damned thing they want. If he was being honest, "maybe" would be something I could believe a father saying.

Jul 10, 2013#497

strawman

If a father's main concern is with his child, and he has feared the government taking Clark away since he was a baby, he isn't going to be rationally weighing the lives of others against his son's life. He will always choose what he feels is best for his son.

It may not be what people want pa kent to be, but this is hardly unusual in the realm of parenting styles.

It can be extraordinarily hard to reevaluate your child every year and discard worries and fears that no longer apply. Most parents simply add new worries and fears, without really getting rid of the old worries and fears.

In this specific case the worry isn't against Clark physically, it's mentally. Even if Clark could have escaped at any time, if the government took him as a youth or even teenager, they could have trained and taught him in ways that you limit his ability to escape, much like the huge elephants that can be held by a simple small rope and stake.

What if Clark matured enough to the point where that was no longer a concern, where he would be able to think for himself, and know enough about the world that it would be difficult for someone in authority to cloud his eyes? Would Pa realize that, and give Clark more latitude, or would he retain that terrifying fear he held since Clark was a baby and continue to act on that fear?

At any rate, it may not make sense according to one's desired version of the superman universe, but it could make sense for the universe they created and portrayed for this movie.[DOUBLEPOST=1373466893][/DOUBLEPOST]

Fun Size said:
Your son has the power to save countless people, assuming you raise him correctly, or you let him use his powers now but promptly get taken by the government, who would undoubtedly fuck him up and use him for whatever damned thing they want. If he was being honest, "maybe" would be something I could believe a father saying.

ninja!

Jul 10, 2013#498

drawn_inward

I can't imagine the restraint it would take as an adolescent Superman. Bullies and authority figures would have been tossed into low orbit if it was my story.

Jul 10, 2013#499

Ravenpoe

drawn_inward said:
I can't imagine the restraint it would take as an adolescent Superman. Bullies and authority figures would have been tossed into low orbit if it was my story.

Or all the damage done from so much super-masturbating. That's gotta be like a gun going off.

Jul 10, 2013#500

GasBandit

Ravenpoe said:
Or all the damage done from so much super-masturbating. That's gotta be like a gun going off.

"I guarantee you he blows his load like a shotgun..."

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