North Korea bombs populated South Korean island

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Element 117

North Korea bombs South Korea's Yeonpyeong Island - Telegraph

North Korea bombs South Korean island
North Korea has bombarded a South Korean island with artillery shells, injuring civilians and soldiers and setting more than 60 properties ablaze.

South Korea's Yeonpueong Island is engulfed in thick smoke after North Korean military launches artillery attack Photo: EPA
By Peter Foster in Beijing 7:17AM GMT 23 Nov 2010
The attack, which comes days after it emerged that North Korea was pressing ahead with its illegal nuclear programme, marks a serious further escalation of tensions on the Korean Peninsular.
South Korea officials said dozens of rounds had landed on Yeonpyeong Island in the Yellow Sea, 50 miles off the South’s northwest coast in an area close a disputed sea border. Other reports suggested as many as 200 shells were fired.
As South Korean forces returned fire, Civilians were evacuated to emergency bunkers, according witnesses quoted by the Seoul-based cable news television channel YTN. Fighter jets were scrambled and an emergency cabinet meeting was called in Seoul.
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Pictures from the TV channel showed at least four plumes of smoke rising from the island which is the largest in a clutch of smaller islands, with a population of less than 2,000 people.
A South Korean Joint Chiefs of Staff official, quoted anonymously by the Associated Press, said dozens of rounds of artillery landed on Yeonpyeong island and confirmed that South Korea had returned fire.
The islands were the scene of two skirmishes between the navies of North and South Korea in 1999 and 2002.
The attack comes after nearly two years of deteriorating relations between the two Koreas, which reached a nadir last March after the sinking of a South Korean corvette, the Cheonan, with the loss of 46 lives.
South Korea has since cut off almost all humanitarian aid to the North, a near bankrupt-state that has been under tight international sanctions since conducting a second nuclear bomb test in 2009 in defiance of UN agreements.
The North has also been facing a degree of political turmoil this year as their ailing leader Kim Jong-il prepares the ground for a dynastic succession that will see power being handed to his youngest son, Kim Jong-un.
 
In a way you have to wonder if someone pulling strings in N Korea is TRYING to get the US involved in a military conflict to force a regime change.
 
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Chazwozel

I don't think it'll escalate into a third world war. Who's N.K.'s biggest ally on principle? China. Who does China depend on for massive exports Europe and the U.S. Every country in the world has no legitimate economical principle to back up North Korea.

The only major concern I would have is South Korea getting nuked into the stone age by Kim Jong iL.
 
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Chibibar

I don't think it'll escalate into a third world war. Who's N.K.'s biggest ally on principle? China. Who does China depend on for massive exports Europe and the U.S. Every country in the world has no legitimate economical principle to back up North Korea.

The only major concern I would have is South Korea getting nuked into the stone age by Kim Jong iL.
I have to agree. Economically, China wouldn't back N.K. up. China needs the west for trade (various reason listed on other forums) and vice versa. Going into war would disrupt that.
 

Dave

Staff member
To the Chinese, NK is the little brother who likes to pick fights with the neighbor kid who also has a big brother. But the two big brothers are business partners.

So until Big Brother China puts their foot down, these shenanigans will continue.
 
Why does China even like North Korea? Us commies gotta stick together? Should be appearant to even China that North Korea is about as communist as a person eating a pork chop is a vegetarian. China needs to realize this relationship is crap and isn't gonna get better. They should totally dump North Korea in public. Scream that they never liked them anyway, burn all their stuff and find someone that likes only eating salad!
 
You guys better hope and pray that this does not escalate. NK on their own will be fairly formidable. They have the ability to shell almost all of South Korea, and lay waste to Seoul. This would be warfare like we have not seen since Korea 60 years ago. NK can likely bring as many men to a fight as we can bring bullets.

Our main hope is that they will be facing us with 1970's Tech. But my real hope is that they will face us with 1950's Tactics.
 
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Chibibar

Why does China even like North Korea? Us commies gotta stick together? Should be appearant to even China that North Korea is about as communist as a person eating a pork chop is a vegetarian. China needs to realize this relationship is crap and isn't gonna get better. They should totally dump North Korea in public. Scream that they never liked them anyway, burn all their stuff and find someone that likes only eating salad!
I believe it is more of a territory decision. If Korea are united, it is more likely to be more democratic than communist. This mean the "west" will have another place to setup military base.
 
I

Iaculus

Part of the problem for China is that if North Korea collapses, they won't only have that democratic, unified Korea mentioned above on their doorstep, but also a massive refugee influx.
 
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Chibibar

It has been like that since the cease fire about 50 years ago (1953 - cease fire right?) The North continue to rattle its saber on and off. I guess China is seeing how far N.K. willing to go before big brother put his foot down.
 
It has been like that since the cease fire about 50 years ago (1953 - cease fire right?) The North continue to rattle its saber on and off. I guess China is seeing how far N.K. willing to go before big brother put his foot down.
This is likely going to be what causes China to put their foot down. This is a very public, very aggressive, VERY unprovoked attack. China won't back them if South Korea decides to fight back, even if they have US help.
 
C

Chibibar

It has been like that since the cease fire about 50 years ago (1953 - cease fire right?) The North continue to rattle its saber on and off. I guess China is seeing how far N.K. willing to go before big brother put his foot down.
This is likely going to be what causes China to put their foot down. This is a very public, very aggressive, VERY unprovoked attack. China won't back them if South Korea decides to fight back, even if they have US help.[/QUOTE]

True, but also China don't want a unified Korea either (like I said, more likely a non-communist country) so China might step in one form or another. I am guessing telling N.K. to simmer down or they will back off for a bit (cut off trade and such) N.K. is nearly broke so they can't afford to piss of their main/only ally.
 
You know, maybe its time to just have it out with those assholes.

It's probably not and things will back down again but... part of me is like, lets just get the inevitable over with already.
 
It has been like that since the cease fire about 50 years ago (1953 - cease fire right?) The North continue to rattle its saber on and off. I guess China is seeing how far N.K. willing to go before big brother put his foot down.
This is likely going to be what causes China to put their foot down. This is a very public, very aggressive, VERY unprovoked attack. China won't back them if South Korea decides to fight back, even if they have US help.[/QUOTE]

True, but also China don't want a unified Korea either (like I said, more likely a non-communist country) so China might step in one form or another. I am guessing telling N.K. to simmer down or they will back off for a bit (cut off trade and such) N.K. is nearly broke so they can't afford to piss of their main/only ally.[/QUOTE]
I'm actually not so sure about China necessarily doing anything significant on the issue. As was stated, border incidents in Korea have been rife over the years, the most widely-publicised being the sinking of that ROK warship this March. These things haven't caused China to apply any more significant pressure on North Korea in the past, and I don't really see how the case at hand should be any different. I think stability and influence on the Korean peninsula are what interests China, and although DPRK brinkmanship is probably not really in chinese interests, putting pressure on the North Korean government might not be conducive to achieving those goals. At least not when the incidents are still relatively minor.
 
you know I don't say this very often, but, the whole world ought to get together and give that country's leadership a good old fashion nuking from on high...ya know couple bombardments with a side of cruise missile and MOAB bombs.

but hell I am no authority, my greatest wish is Twinkies that nuke themselves.
 
You guys better hope and pray that this does not escalate. NK on their own will be fairly formidable. They have the ability to shell almost all of South Korea, and lay waste to Seoul. This would be warfare like we have not seen since Korea 60 years ago. NK can likely bring as many men to a fight as we can bring bullets.

Our main hope is that they will be facing us with 1970's Tech. But my real hope is that they will face us with 1950's Tactics.
uh huh.

So, hypothetically, N. Korea declares total war on S. Korea. What stops America from turning N.Korea into a smoking crater with conventional ordinance?

E: Or for that matter, whats to stop S.Korea from doing the same? The South Korean air force is leagues ahead of the North's. Contrary to what might seem obvious, when you pit a (to use a situationally appropriate analogy) zerg rush of lowtech fighter jets against more modern ones, the modern ones will always win. The only limiting factor on how many MiG-21s an f-16 Fighting Falcon can shoot down is the amount of ordinance it can carry.

And thats a lot of ordinance.
 
You guys better hope and pray that this does not escalate. NK on their own will be fairly formidable. They have the ability to shell almost all of South Korea, and lay waste to Seoul. This would be warfare like we have not seen since Korea 60 years ago. NK can likely bring as many men to a fight as we can bring bullets.

Our main hope is that they will be facing us with 1970's Tech. But my real hope is that they will face us with 1950's Tactics.

uh huh.

So, hypothetically, N. Korea declares total war on S. Korea. What stops America from turning N.Korea into a smoking crater with conventional ordinance?[/QUOTE]


Threats/interference from China maybe?
 
Civilians. Same shit that has tied our hands behind our back in the Middle East.

---------- Post added at 02:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 AM ----------

You guys better hope and pray that this does not escalate. NK on their own will be fairly formidable. They have the ability to shell almost all of South Korea, and lay waste to Seoul. This would be warfare like we have not seen since Korea 60 years ago. NK can likely bring as many men to a fight as we can bring bullets.

Our main hope is that they will be facing us with 1970's Tech. But my real hope is that they will face us with 1950's Tactics.
uh huh.

So, hypothetically, N. Korea declares total war on S. Korea. What stops America from turning N.Korea into a smoking crater with conventional ordinance?[/QUOTE]
 
What stops America from turning N.Korea into a smoking crater with conventional ordinance?
I think the American public has, to some degree (and despite the right's rhetoric), become gun shy. We are already stuck in the middle east trying to fix the countries we waged war on. If it was going to be wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, then maybe, but we also don't want to leave a power vacuum, nor give North Korea even more reason to lean on China. But I don't think that Obama is keen to become the guy that indirectly badmouthed the choice to enter into wars past, then enters into one himself.

Quite frankly I don't see the hand Obama has been playing in our current military affairs. As far as I can tell he's simply following the recommendations of his subordinates in matters of war. He's certainly been reluctant to push through all those promises he made early on regarding our military, so either he's become more knowledgable about the reality on the ground, or more docile.

Either way I'm very curious to see how he reacts to such a situation.

I hope he doesn't have to, though.
 
Threats/interference from China maybe?
As far as I am aware, all China has done so far is promise that it will defend n.Korea against invasion. If it were to attempt to interfere in the American defense of South Korea, it would probably be an act of war. For the aforementioned reasons, china can not fight a conventional war with America which means that it's only options should the DPRK attack the south are

1. Allow America to do something it is required to by treaty and which is legal under international law
or
2. Go batshit crazy, do a 180 and start a nuclear war.

Civilians. Same shit that has tied our hands behind our back in the Middle East.


What you are describing is what happened in a peacekeeping operation against an insurgency. Do you remember what happened 9 years ago when that conflict actually started? Iraq's entire military and government was dismantled in 5 days. The same would happen in an American/north Korean conflict.

and to defend my statement, since about 90% of the DPRK is occupied by military installations, dismantling those would turn it into... a big, smoking crater.
 
So, hypothetically, N. Korea declares total war on S. Korea. What stops America from turning N.Korea into a smoking crater with conventional ordinance?
Seoul (Capital and Largest City in SK) is well within range of North Korea's artillery. It's been estimated they have more than enough conventional ordnance to level A LOT of the city. Any action America takes it going to be after the fact (so we don't piss of China), so your looking at a scenario where SK loses tens/hundreds of thousands of people in the first barrage. If they get NUKES, we're talking millions.

In other words, the thing keeping America from stomping NK is the thousands/millions who would die in retaliatory strikes against civilian targets. No one would stop us from rolling through the country in that scenario, but the costs are simply far to great. Hence why we've stuck with diplomatic solutions despite the fact they've openly and brazenly murdered Americans over things as stupid as a tree. Though I must admit, Operation Paul Bunyan sounds like something out of a movie.
 
In other words, the thing keeping America from stomping NK is the thousands/millions who would die in retaliatory strikes against civilian targets. No one would stop us from rolling through the country in that scenario, but the costs are simply far to great. Hence why we've stuck with diplomatic solutions despite the fact they've openly and brazenly murdered Americans over things as stupid as a tree. Though I must admit, Operation Paul Bunyan sounds like something out of a movie.
If the americans went into North Korea, I firmly believe that they would be able to destroy the DPRK's ability to mount any military action within hours. No retaliation would be possible. The real reason they can't go in is that China is backing N.Korea up with it's nuclear arsenal, plain and simple.
 
M

Matt²

Civilians. Same shit that has tied our hands behind our back in the Middle East.
So what happens when/if some little Hitler wannabe comes around and doesn't give a shit about civilians and nukes anyway? (from any side)
 
Gurpel, China won't do shit if NK goes crazy and tries something serious except tighten their borders and turn away refugees. They aren't any more interested in starting of the Apocalypse than anyone else is. The only reason they support NK is because they are a useful buffer to prevent the spread of democracy and western values. They cease to be useful the moment they start hurling missiles into Seoul.
 
The only reason they support NK is because they are a useful buffer to prevent the spread of democracy and western values.
*scratches head* I thought it was more because they don't want foreign military bases (Read: US) on their border, which would happen should NK fall.

If it's to prevent the spread the western values, they're sure doing a piss-poor job of it.
 
What you are describing is what happened in a peacekeeping operation against an insurgency. Do you remember what happened 9 years ago when that conflict actually started? Iraq's entire military and government was dismantled in 5 days. The same would happen in an American/north Korean conflict.
Afghanistan and Iraq...two different wars, so do I remember what happened in 2001 when we invaded and took over? I was serving and had friends who invaded. Then again in March 2003, when shock and awe fell flat because of the targets we could actually hit because of human shields being placed in palaces...Same as before, I can't spit without hitting someone I know who was in the invasion.

What I see as Americas biggest downfall in combat is Americas aversion to commit to the atrocities that come with war when it is viewed in their living rooms and the policy that even one civilian casualty is too many. I know how that comes off but people die in war and civilians are no exception.

Those who don't try to flee to China will be used as human shields (willingly mind you) to prevent the damage of certain places, I would be willing to put a months paycheck on it.
 
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