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JonTron: White Nationalist?

Mar 31, 2017#1

GasBandit

Ravenpoe said:
His views aren't nazi, they're white nationalist.

Most of these come from the interview he did, where he promptly put his foot directly in his mouth.

"Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, that's a fact."

"They [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

"Why is it when the chinese were trying to colonise tibet, why was that a save tibet situation but when it's white people... I'm using an analogy to try to give a parallel situation so you can see the hypocrisy."

"I don't recall Trump ever saying anything explicitly racist."

"We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land."

The debate in full, if you want full source. It's long.

First of all, I'd just like to say that video is extremely hard to watch, as Destiny is constantly putting words in Jon's mouth and attempting to fluster him by interrupting him so repeatedly that I think Jon got interrupted more than he was actually allowed to finish talking.

Destiny also says some pretty far out shit there. So much so that he started issuing DMCA takedowns to people who played quotes of him in their videos.

Now then, as for the JonTron quotes above, they seem to be predominantly facts.

According to a study published this month in the Washington Post, all but the richest 10% of black Americans are much, much more likely to wind up in prison than any economic stratum of white Americans, including the poor. Note that's not "of people arrested, more likely to go to prison," that's "of all people born in the 60s, more likely to be in prison by the 80s."

White Americans are, in fact, in the process of being displaced as the majority ethnicity. That's long been documented.

In fact, it's also corroborated by a graphic destiny keeps on the screen for much of his video.

Furthermore, there is actually an ongoing movement among groups like La Raza and Republica Del Norte to "reconquer" the lands they see as having been stolen from them by the United States by immigration and outnumbering to the point of political majority - consisting of basically the entire Southwest and Texas, the latter of which they view as having been stolen from them in this exact manner (Tejas was "settled" by Americans until they outnumbered Mexicans 10 to 1). This is not a fringe or niche viewpoint. A zogby poll conducted in 2006 showed that 58% of Mexicans believe the American Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico.

"I don't recall Trump saying anything explicitly racist" is a bit of a stretch, to put it charitably. I suppose he could have just not have been paying attention, and if you get down to it very little of what Trump has said, when taken individually, has been "explicitly" racist (for example, he said the judge in the Trump University wouldn't give him a fair shake because "He's a Mexican," but that wasn't saying "Mexicans are bad judges" but rather that his pride in his cultural heritage created a conflict of interest during Trump's "Build a wall" campaigning, and for another example, Trump didn't say "Mexicans are rapists and criminals" but rather that people leaving Mexico to come to America were, and the "good" Mexicans were staying in Mexico), but when taken as a whole, a pattern emerges where it becomes folly to assume there isn't a fire from that much smoke. It could also be said that Trump himself isn't openly (or perhaps "explicitly") a racist, but he sure can whip up enthusiasm and support among racists. But given that Destiny's baiting "gotcha" interview with JonTron is more of the "call everything racist" leftist tedium that got us stuck with Trump in the first place, I can kinda see why Jafari might decide to pick that nit, just to give back some of what he was getting while caught off balance.

And finally, on discrimination in western countries, Jafari's largely correct. Remember, "Western Countries" isn't just America. It's also Canada, and Norway, and Switzerland, and so on. By and large (outside of France that is), countries you'd call part of Western Civilization are very much the least discriminatory. Now, granted, that is not saying discrimination has been eradicated, but things are definitely much better in the West, and far and away better than they have ever been in history.

Mar 31, 2017#2

Krisken

Being factual without context is hardly factual.

Mar 31, 2017#3

PatrThom

India: Voted most likely to be exactly where it placed in this poll.

--Patrick

Mar 31, 2017#4

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
First of all, I'd just like to say that video is extremely hard to watch, as Destiny is constantly putting words in Jon's mouth and attempting to fluster him by interrupting him so repeatedly that I think Jon got interrupted more than he was actually allowed to finish talking.

Destiny also says some pretty far out shit there. So much so that he started issuing DMCA takedowns to people who played quotes of him in their videos.

Now then, as for the JonTron quotes above, they seem to be predominantly facts.

According to a study published this month in the Washington Post, all but the richest 10% of black Americans are much, much more likely to wind up in prison than any economic stratum of white Americans, including the poor. Note that's not "of people arrested, more likely to go to prison," that's "of all people born in the 60s, more likely to be in prison by the 80s."

White Americans are, in fact, in the process of being displaced as the majority ethnicity. That's long been documented.

In fact, it's also corroborated by a graphic destiny keeps on the screen for much of his video.

Furthermore, there is actually an ongoing movement among groups like La Raza and Republica Del Norte to "reconquer" the lands they see as having been stolen from them by the United States by immigration and outnumbering to the point of political majority - consisting of basically the entire Southwest and Texas, the latter of which they view as having been stolen from them in this exact manner (Tejas was "settled" by Americans until they outnumbered Mexicans 10 to 1). This is not a fringe or niche viewpoint. A zogby poll conducted in 2006 showed that 58% of Mexicans believe the American Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico.

"I don't recall Trump saying anything explicitly racist" is a bit of a stretch, to put it charitably. I suppose he could have just not have been paying attention, and if you get down to it very little of what Trump has said, when taken individually, has been "explicitly" racist (for example, he said the judge in the Trump University wouldn't give him a fair shake because "He's a Mexican," but that wasn't saying "Mexicans are bad judges" but rather that his pride in his cultural heritage created a conflict of interest during Trump's "Build a wall" campaigning, and for another example, Trump didn't say "Mexicans are rapists and criminals" but rather that people leaving Mexico to come to America were, and the "good" Mexicans were staying in Mexico), but when taken as a whole, a pattern emerges where it becomes folly to assume there isn't a fire from that much smoke. It could also be said that Trump himself isn't openly (or perhaps "explicitly") a racist, but he sure can whip up enthusiasm and support among racists. But given that Destiny's baiting "gotcha" interview with JonTron is more of the "call everything racist" leftist tedium that got us stuck with Trump in the first place, I can kinda see why Jafari might decide to pick that nit, just to give back some of what he was getting while caught off balance.

And finally, on discrimination in western countries, Jafari's largely correct. Remember, "Western Countries" isn't just America. It's also Canada, and Norway, and Switzerland, and so on. By and large (outside of France that is), countries you'd call part of Western Civilization are very much the least discriminatory. Now, granted, that is not saying discrimination has been eradicated, but things are definitely much better in the West, and far and away better than they have ever been in history.

I never said anything about the quality of Destiny's character. He's a scumbag and JonTron was kinda stupid to agree debating with him, especially since he seemed very unprepared.

I'm really not interested in debating the rest with you. Quotes were asked for, so I provided them. I will point out that conviction rate is not the same as amount of crime committed, but I'm pretty sure you know that already.

JonTron presents these 'facts' as proof of the danger against white culture, and why immigration needs to be stopped and controlled in favor of maintaining a white nation. The irony that he is himself the son of an immigrant at least makes this otherwise sad and gross situation amusing.

I have a feeling you just want to argue for sake of devil's advocate, and that's fine, but I live in a place where there are known public officials that are actual members of the KKK, which is hilariously still a thing. I no longer have the patience to argue against white nationalism, and how the new crop of what I can only describe as political trolls gravitate to it.

Apr 1, 2017#5

Frank

Yes.

Apr 1, 2017#6

DarkAudit

~~While he was apparently suckered into expressing views that were best left unexpressed~~, Pewdiepie did it for the lulz, then tried to play the "I was only kidding" card when called on it. Of the two, that's worse, IMO.

Apr 1, 2017#7

Frank

He wasn't suckered, he's an idiot who's been tweeting his white nationalist nonsense the whole time. He also happens to be dreadfully ignorant and not all the bright on the subject.

Apr 1, 2017#8

Ravenpoe

Frank said:
He wasn't suckered, he's an idiot who's been tweeting his white nationalist nonsense the whole time. He also happens to be dreadfully ignorant and not all the bright on the subject.

He also seems to be pretty big on the mens rights anti feminism thing, just judging from his tweets

Apr 1, 2017#9

GasBandit

Frank said:

Well, he's right. Haven't been a whole lot of calls for, say, Japan to stop its cultural protectionism, at least not since the US did so at cannonpoint.

Everybody everywhere outside the Tigris-Euphrates corridor is descended from immigrants if you go back far enough. It's irrelevant, and isn't a reason to abdicate national sovereignty and go whole hog on open, unfiltered immigration.

I think this was a case of trying to have a discussion 140 character at a time. The United States was founded by and thus continues to be a part of western civilization. That entails certain values. If a middle eastern country such as Iran, the UAE, or Saudi Arabia were to found a colony that spun off into a nation, do you think it would afford the same "opportunities" as the US? Would women have equal rights? Be allowed even to drive? Would homosexuals be able to be open about their sexual preference without fear of death, much less celebrate it as is commonly done in the US? How many non-islamic places of worship would be tolerated? Would even a single synagogue be allowed? There is a definite cultural divide.

Yes.

The only thing I've seen so far (aside from Trump-blindness) is a refusal to take his soma and go with the flow on the leftist narrative that all cultures that aren't rooted in western civilization are wonderful and unquestionable.

Apr 1, 2017#10

Frank

Yeah, ok, so aside from him saying out loud that he hates niggers of sorts, sand included, you won't ever see him as white nationalist.

Apr 1, 2017#11

Tress

Frank said:
Yeah, ok, so aside from him saying out loud that he hates niggers of sorts, sand included, you won't ever see him as white nationalist.

That's what I'm getting too.

This is fucking stupid. You're splitting hairs or clinging to technicalities to give the guy cover for saying a bunch of white nationalist bullshit that was, at the very least, dog-whistle racism. I honestly thought you were better than this, Gas.

Apr 1, 2017#12

GasBandit

Frank said:
Yeah, ok, so aside from him saying out loud that he hates niggers of sorts, sand included, you won't ever see him as white nationalist.

Translation: "I have problems with facts and don't let logic get in the way of crucifying anyone who doesn't 110% toe the line of the narrative I believe."

I got a JonTron tweet for YOU.

[DOUBLEPOST=1491058257,1491058168][/DOUBLEPOST]

Tress said:
That's what I'm getting too.

This is fucking stupid. You're splitting hairs or clinging to technicalities to give the guy cover for saying a bunch of white nationalist bullshit that was, at the very least, dog-whistle racism. I honestly thought you were better than this, Gas.

No, I know racism when I see it. This is a witch hunt.

Apr 1, 2017#13

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
First of all, I'd just like to say that video is extremely hard to watch, as Destiny is constantly putting words in Jon's mouth and attempting to fluster him by interrupting him so repeatedly that I think Jon got interrupted more than he was actually allowed to finish talking.

OK, so I didn't watch the video, I know nothing about this scandal or the guy in the center of everything, but I had a few thoughts that I could blurt out. Go internet!

Now then, as for the JonTron quotes above, they seem to be predominantly facts.

According to a study published this month in the Washington Post, all but the richest 10% of black Americans are much, much more likely to wind up in prison than any economic stratum of white Americans, including the poor. Note that's not "of people arrested, more likely to go to prison," that's "of all people born in the 60s, more likely to be in prison by the 80s."

This isn't so much fact as it is selectively zeroing in on a fuzzy spot until it kind of looks like a face. The social sciences are plagued right now with some data integrity issues, which include researchers slicing and dicing the data until they happen to find something interesting. Case in point in the graphic above: 1957 - 1965? Why those dates? 1985? Why? As Krisken said, context matters. I have a strong suspicion that the context for the research graphic is, "Hey, look, we found something when we squinted and crossed our eyes for long enough!"

White Americans are, in fact, in the process of being displaced as the majority ethnicity. That's long been documented.

In fact, it's also corroborated by a graphic destiny keeps on the screen for much of his video.

It might be true, but it isn't justification for anything. You want to keep the white population from shrinking, go have some babies.

And finally, on discrimination in western countries, Jafari's largely correct. Remember, "Western Countries" isn't just America. It's also Canada, and Norway, and Switzerland, and so on. By and large (outside of France that is), countries you'd call part of Western Civilization are very much the least discriminatory. Now, granted, that is not saying discrimination has been eradicated, but things are definitely much better in the West, and far and away better than they have ever been in history.

This is probably true and relevant to more below. I will note that you are implying that being non-discriminatory seems to be a positive thing here. Reducing that would seem to be a negative thing, therefore.

GasBandit said:
Well, he's right. Haven't been a whole lot of calls for, say, Japan to stop its cultural protectionism, at least not since the US did so at cannonpoint.

And this is what prompted me to jump in. Is the argument, "They do it, so why don't we?" That should look dumb on its face. Is it "We can't change them, so we might as well be the ones to change"? Not an especially strong argument. Is it "Nobody seems to be harrassing those people about being more open and accepting"? If so, gee, I wonder why. Also, it isn't relevant to our own "cultural interests". It seems to just be a complaint about how unfair the criticism is being spread about. Boohoo? In all honesty, I simply don't see anything convincing whatsoever in pointing out the fact that other countries are less open and accepting than we are, especially since you pointed out above that this is largely taken as a positive.

Everybody everywhere outside the Tigris-Euphrates corridor is descended from immigrants if you go back far enough. It's irrelevant, and isn't a reason to abdicate national sovereignty and go whole hog on open, unfiltered immigration.

Those other countries that are less accepting? They are driving some people away, driving them towards more accepting and open places. Places that have a history of accepting immigrants. "Abdicate national sovereignty" and "unfiltered immigration" are strawman positions

I think this was a case of trying to have a discussion 140 character at a time. The United States was founded by and thus continues to be a part of western civilization. That entails certain values. If a middle eastern country such as Iran, the UAE, or Saudi Arabia were to found a colony that spun off into a nation, do you think it would afford the same "opportunities" as the US? Would women have equal rights? Be allowed even to drive? Would homosexuals be able to be open about their sexual preference without fear of death, much less celebrate it as is commonly done in the US? How many non-islamic places of worship would be tolerated? Would even a single synagogue be allowed? There is a definite cultural divide.

I don't think "founding stock" implies ANY of the things you say here. At all. Also, see the same counterpoints made above.

The only thing I've seen so far (aside from Trump-blindness) is a refusal to take his soma and go with the flow on the leftist narrative that all cultures that aren't rooted in western civilization are wonderful and unquestionable.

Strawman. I see some protectionism, cherrypicking, and blindness to western cultural values.

GasBandit said:
Translation: "I have problems with facts and don't let logic get in the way of crucifying anyone who doesn't 110% toe the line of the narrative I believe."

That swings both ways, buddy.

Apr 1, 2017#14

@Li3n

Ravenpoe said:
"They [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

Heh, yeah, that's just like with the natives, who where simply moved around by the Europeans, and no one died or anything.

I don't know if the fact that they clearly don't believe what they're spouting is a good thing or a bad thing.

Apr 1, 2017#15

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Would women have equal rights? Be allowed even to drive? Would homosexuals be able to be open about their sexual preference without fear of death, much less celebrate it as is commonly done in the US?

Ah yes, those good ol' 1776 western culture values...

I mean could you imagine if the US had been founded by immigrants form a nation where they had a religious cold war, and some Guy tried to blow up Parliament over it? Or if big parts of those very same immigrants where fleeing religious persecution back home?

Man, that place would have turned out so bad...

EDIT: Oh, and what's with everyone getting scared when white people start talking about taking their nation back from "those people" that are ruining it and have been breeding too much... i mean it's not like there's some precedent there that ended in any sort of burning....

Apr 1, 2017#16

@Li3n

GasBandit said:

Wait, doesn't that chart contradict him, as at 10 white people are higher?

And really, you think that if a police force is discriminating against people it would only be for conviction rates, but not affect arrests?

GasBandit said:
And finally, on discrimination in western countries, Jafari's largely correct. Remember, "Western Countries" isn't just America. It's also Canada, and Norway, and Switzerland, and so on. By and large (outside of France that is), countries you'd call part of Western Civilization are very much the least discriminatory. Now, granted, that is not saying discrimination has been eradicated, but things are definitely much better in the West, and far and away better than they have ever been in history.

Ah yes, good ol' self reporting. Meanwhile, over in France, some cops sodomised a black kid on camera... and i haven't heard anything about it since.

And i've also heard plenty of stories about western europeans changing attitude once they heard you're from an eastern country...

But hey, this JonTron guy says he's not a racist, and he would totally not move out of a neighbourhood that had more black people...

...

Then again, you are right that it's the best it's been in history... but that doesn't make it be good.

Apr 1, 2017#17

GasBandit

MindDetective said:
This isn't so much fact as it is selectively zeroing in on a fuzzy spot until it kind of looks like a face. The social sciences are plagued right now with some data integrity issues, which include researchers slicing and dicing the data until they happen to find something interesting. Case in point in the graphic above: 1957 - 1965? Why those dates? 1985? Why? As Krisken said, context matters. I have a strong suspicion that the context for the research graphic is, "Hey, look, we found something when we squinted and crossed our eyes for long enough!"

The point is, there is accepted, peer-reviewed, published data to report. Your suspicions here sound a lot like my suspicions back on the global warming debate a few weeks ago, and I'll completely admit that a study today may be refuted tomorrow - but the point is "Rick black people end up in prison more than poor white people" is not something Jontron pulled out of his ass just to be racist.

It might be true, but it isn't justification for anything. You want to keep the white population from shrinking, go have some babies.

My childlessness is not for lack of trying. Fortunately Stienman's around to pick up my slack

But immigration control is another way to maintain a cultural majority, and it's also what Japan is doing in the face of their own shrinking birthrates. But never is anything more than "yeah well, Japan is Japan what ya gonna do lol" is ever said about it.

This is probably true and relevant to more below. I will note that you are implying that being non-discriminatory seems to be a positive thing here. Reducing that would seem to be a negative thing, therefore.

That doesn't mean we're obligated to throw open our borders to all and sundry, regardless of (lack of) willingness to assimilate or incompatible value system.

And this is what prompted me to jump in. Is the argument, "They do it, so why don't we?" That should look dumb on its face. Is it "We can't change them, so we might as well be the ones to change"? Not an especially strong argument. Is it "Nobody seems to be harrassing those people about being more open and accepting"? If so, gee, I wonder why. Also, it isn't relevant to our own "cultural interests". It seems to just be a complaint about how unfair the criticism is being spread about. Boohoo? In all honesty, I simply don't see anything convincing whatsoever in pointing out the fact that other countries are less open and accepting than we are, especially since you pointed out above that this is largely taken as a positive.

It's not "they do it so why don't we," it's that there's a double standard, driven and perpetuated by willful ignorance of incompatible cultural values and motivations.

Those other countries that are less accepting? They are driving some people away, driving them towards more accepting and open places. Places that have a history of accepting immigrants. "Abdicate national sovereignty" and "unfiltered immigration" are strawman positions

They're basically what Jontron's critics advocate. That anybody who wants to come here can and must be allowed, regardless of any objection. They're the same people who say things like "no immigrant is illegal."

I don't think "founding stock" implies ANY of the things you say here. At all. Also, see the same counterpoints made above.

And I think it does, as it is (as I said) a forced abbreviation to fit an entire argument in under twitter's 140 character limit. The "founding stock" of the nation was largely western european - IE, Western civilization.

Strawman. I see some protectionism, cherrypicking, and blindness to western cultural values.

Nope. It's a real thing that has been festering in leftist politics for decades now.

@Li3n said:
Wait, doesn't that chart contradict him, as at 10 white people are higher?

No, he was not comparing to rich white people.

And really, you think that if a police force is discriminating against people it would only be for conviction rates, but not affect arrests?

The study was about prison incarceration, not short term jail time. The kinds of offenses that land you in prison are not the kind for which Sherriff Buford will let you off with a warning because you're white.

Ah yes, good ol' self reporting. Meanwhile, over in France, some cops sodomised a black kid on camera... and i haven't heard anything about it since.

Well, I did specifically call out France as an exclusion

And i've also heard plenty of stories about western europeans changing attitude once they heard you're from an eastern country...

On that, I have no knowledge. Got links?

Then again, you are right that it's the best it's been in history... but that doesn't make it be good.

0%-4.9% is pretty damn good.

Apr 1, 2017#18

Gruebeard

"They [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

Just out of curiosity, who is he saying is slaughtering white Americans and pushing them off their land?

Apr 1, 2017#19

Hailey Knight

So Jontron is scared that white people will become a minority in the U.S. Why? Do bad things happen to minorities here?

Apr 1, 2017#20

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
The point is, there is accepted, peer-reviewed, published data to report. Your suspicions here sound a lot like my suspicions back on the global warming debate a few weeks ago, and I'll completely admit that a study today may be refuted tomorrow - but the point is "Rick black people end up in prison more than poor white people" is not something Jontron pulled out of his ass just to be racist.

My childlessness is not for lack of trying. Fortunately Stienman's around to pick up my slack

But immigration control is another way to maintain a cultural majority, and it's also what Japan is doing in the face of their own shrinking birthrates. But never is anything more than "yeah well, Japan is Japan what ya gonna do lol" is ever said about it.

That doesn't mean we're obligated to throw open our borders to all and sundry, regardless of (lack of) willingness to assimilate or incompatible value system.

It's not "they do it so why don't we," it's that there's a double standard, driven and perpetuated by willful ignorance of incompatible cultural values and motivations.

They're basically what Jontron's critics advocate. That anybody who wants to come here can and must be allowed, regardless of any objection. They're the same people who say things like "no immigrant is illegal."

And I think it does, as it is (as I said) a forced abbreviation to fit an entire argument in under twitter's 140 character limit. The "founding stock" of the nation was largely western european - IE, Western civilization.

Nope. It's a real thing that has been festering in leftist politics for decades now.

No, he was not comparing to rich white people.

The study was about prison incarceration, not short term jail time. The kinds of offenses that land you in prison are not the kind for which Sherriff Buford will let you off with a warning because you're white.

Well, I did specifically call out France as an exclusion

On that, I have no knowledge. Got links?

0%-4.9% is pretty damn good.

re: the "double standard" See: "Boohoo?"

And sorry, but my strawman criticisms are not opinion. That is literally the logical fallacy you invoked. I'm just stating things that are true (see what I did there?)

tldr; You are probably arguing against composite of many different viewpoints.

Apr 1, 2017#21

GasBandit

Gruebeard said:
"They [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

Just out of curiosity, who is he saying is slaughtering white Americans and pushing them off their land?

He specifically says they are not being "slaughtered." And not every case of displacement is the trail of tears. Texas became a nation, and later a state, because white people from the US moved there in such numbers that they became the dominant political force. When Mexico tried to stem the tide by banning immigration from the US in 1830, the ones already here agitated for revolt, and the rest is history. It's kind of easy to see that sort of happening in reverse, as I said in my initial post in this thread. Heck, something similar happened in Ukraine very recently.

MindDetective said:
tldr; You are probably arguing against composite of many different viewpoints.

That's a possibility, granted. But I'm trying to address what I see in those being most vociferous in their condemnation of Jafari.

Apr 1, 2017#22

Krisken

Wow.

Apr 1, 2017#23

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
Would homosexuals be able to be open about their sexual preference without fear of death

L-O-Fucking-L

Apr 1, 2017#24

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
L-O-Fucking-L

Still-fucking-true.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-punished-by-death-2/?utm_term=.a10d1f4dfd3f

Apr 1, 2017#25

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
Still-fucking-true.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-punished-by-death-2/?utm_term=.a10d1f4dfd3f

Oh I'm not denying that. Just that calling the US some progressive Mecca for gay people is absurd. Yeah it's not a capital offense but I wouldn't exactly brag.

Apr 1, 2017#26

Vrii

Was not expecting to come here today to find a thread where Gas defends white nationalism. Very interesting.

Apr 1, 2017#27

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
Now then, as for the JonTron quotes above, they seem to be predominantly facts.

According to a study published this month in the Washington Post, all but the richest 10% of black Americans are much, much more likely to wind up in prison than any economic stratum of white Americans, including the poor. Note that's not "of people arrested, more likely to go to prison," that's "of all people born in the 60s, more likely to be in prison by the 80s."

But does this mean that rich black kids are committing more crimes, or that they're being sent to prison more often? There's a BIG difference. Because what JonTron said, is "Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, that's a fact" but what's actually in evidence is something very different.

Apr 1, 2017#28

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
Oh I'm not denying that. Just that calling the US some progressive Mecca for gay people is absurd. Yeah it's not a capital offense but I wouldn't exactly brag.

I didn't even remotely say that. I said here it wasn't a state-mandated death sentence.

figmentPez said:
But does this mean that rich black kids are committing more crimes, or that they're being sent to prison more often? There's a BIG difference. Because what JonTron said, is "Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, that's a fact" but what's actually in evidence is something very different.

Not as big a difference as one might think at first blush (unless one also ascribes to MindDetective's suspicion re: data integrity). This is not "of those arrested, how many go to prison," it's a straight percentage rate sampling of who ends up in prison by 28, sorted by ethnicity and wealth. Note that, as @lien pointed out, it also shows that the richest 10% of white people go to prison more than the poorest 10% of white people, or the richest 10% of black people. But outside that amusing bit, it pretty much says what Jafari said it does.

Apr 2, 2017#29

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
Not as big a difference as one might think at first blush (unless one also ascribes to MindDetective's suspicion re: data integrity). This is not "of those arrested, how many go to prison," it's a straight percentage rate sampling of who ends up in prison by 28, sorted by ethnicity and wealth. Note that, as @lien pointed out, it also shows that the richest 10% of white people go to prison more than the poorest 10% of white people, or the richest 10% of black people. But outside that amusing bit, it pretty much says what Jafari said it does.

Woah, wait a minute. Being arrested is only a small part of the picture. Not everyone who commits a crime is targeted for investigation. (i.e. If you're trespassing as a poor white kid, you might just get a warning, if people notice at all. If you're a rich black kid, you're probably going to get at least arrested. And that's not even getting into issues of drugs and their perception in white communities vs black.) Next, not everyone who does get noticed by police for their crime is arrested, then prosecuted, then imprisoned.

Are you getting the point yet? People who have gone to prison for their crimes have 1. Caught the attention of law enforcement, 2. Maintained that interest long enough to be arrested, 3. Either plea bargained or went to trial, 4. Had a sentence that actually included prison. Hence, the statistic of "more whatever go to prison for their crime" is NOT proof that more of that demographic are committing crimes.

That more rich white people go to prison than poor white people doesn't prove that more rich people are committing crimes than poor people, all it proves is that more of them are going to prison. It might indicate that they're committing more crimes, but without more data it's not proof. Think about why a higher percentage of rich white people are going to prison for their crimes than poor white people. It's because people care enough about money to go to trial over it. Some rich white guy commits tax fraud and someone notices, there's a lot higher chance he's going to prison than some poor white dude who cheats on his taxes. And that's not even getting into cases where some poor white dude repeatedly drives drunk and only gets fines and a suspended license, or a white teen who gets a suspended sentence for dealing pot.

All that and we're not even getting into the definition of "crime" since not all crime carries a prison sentence.

Apr 2, 2017#30

GasBandit

figmentPez said:
Woah, wait a minute. Being arrested is only a small part of the picture. Not everyone who commits a crime is targeted for investigation. (i.e. If you're trespassing as a poor white kid, you might just get a warning, if people notice at all. If you're a rich black kid, you're probably going to get at least arrested. And that's not even getting into issues of drugs and their perception in white communities vs black.) Next, not everyone who does get noticed by police for their crime is arrested, then prosecuted, then imprisoned.

Are you getting the point yet? People who have gone to prison for their crimes have 1. Caught the attention of law enforcement, 2. Maintained that interest long enough to be arrested, 3. Either plea bargained or went to trial, 4. Had a sentence that actually included prison. Hence, the statistic of "more whatever go to prison for their crime" is NOT proof that more of that demographic are committing crimes.

So what you are asserting is that all the police and judicial systems in the US are so biased against minorities that at least 75% of prison-caliber crimes committed by white people are going unpunished, basically? Because the numbers show that the rate is 4-10 times higher. And I'm sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test at all.

Think about why a higher percentage of rich white people are going to prison for their crimes than poor white people. It's because people care enough about money to go to trial over it. Some rich white guy commits tax fraud and someone notices, there's a lot higher chance he's going to prison than some poor white dude who cheats on his taxes. And that's not even getting into cases where some poor white dude repeatedly drives drunk and only gets fines and a suspended license, or a white teen who gets a suspended sentence for dealing pot.

All of this is pure conjecture.

Apr 2, 2017#31

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
So what you are asserting is that all the police and judicial systems in the US are so biased against minorities that at least 75% of prison-caliber crimes committed by white people are going unpunished, basically? Because the numbers show that the rate is 4-10 times higher. And I'm sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test at all.

Let me introduce you to my friends, Mary and Jane.

Also, back when Zimmerman got off for having someone he was following fight him, a black women got sent to 20 years in prison for shooting a gun in the air while being strangled by someone she had a restraining order against...[DOUBLEPOST=1491156723,1491156450][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
No, he was not comparing to rich white people.

No, but he was comparing rich black people, who apparently commit less crimes then even rich white people... so technically only by-one-under-rich white people commit less crime then them.

GasBandit said:
The study was about prison incarceration, not short term jail time. The kinds of offenses that land you in prison are not the kind for which Sherriff Buford will let you off with a warning because you're white.

See my comment above about my friend Mary and Jane...

GasBandit said:
On that, I have no knowledge. Got links?

Of what, people i know talking about it?

Just go search for post-brexit polish attacks i guess.

Apr 2, 2017#32

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
Also, back when Zimmerman got off for having someone he was following fight him, a black women got sent to 20 years in prison for shooting a gun in the air while being strangled by someone she had a restraining order against...

That's not the whole story of what happened. Despite having a restraining order, she went to HIS home and spent the night there. The next day during an argument, she went into the garage, where her car was, despite both later testifying they knew each the garage door would't open and there being two other unobstructed exits from the house. She was not "being strangled." She got her (legally owned) gun out of her car, went BACK into the kitchen, and aimed it at him. Her "warning shot" hit the wall near him at the level of his head, not "fired into the air." Sounds less like a warning shot and more like a miss, to me. The guy and the kids (who were in the line of fire, by the way) fled the house and called 911, which she did not. Then, when she was out on bail, she went BACK to his house and attacked him, injuring his face. She ended up making a plea deal for time served plus a couple months. All this is in the court documents.

No, but he was comparing rich black people, who apparently commit less crimes then even rich white people... so technically only by-one-under-rich white people commit less crime then them.

You're changing the parameters. The data shown clearly shows that only the top 10% of each are close, and then by a fraction of a percentage. That aside, all levels of black people, rich or poor, have a higher tendency to end up in prison than white people, rich or poor.

Of what, people i know talking about it?

Well, if it's a thing, chances are there's documentation of it online, yes?

Just go search for post-brexit polish attacks i guess.

That's a non sequitur (and laziness, telling me to google things to support your argument).

On a note related to the crime rates:
Study finds all-white juries convict black defendants 16% more often than white - not 4-10 times more.

Apr 2, 2017#33

Vrii

You know what? Let's get this out in the open. Gas: you're arguing pretty forcefully to support the idea that black people commit significantly more crime than white people do - why? What's the conclusion that this is supporting for you?

Apr 2, 2017#34

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
So what you are asserting is that all the police and judicial systems in the US are so biased against minorities that at least 75% of prison-caliber crimes committed by white people are going unpunished, basically? Because the numbers show that the rate is 4-10 times higher. And I'm sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test at all.

It doesn't? ABC News Australia says different
" in the US prison system, although Latinos are less likely to be involved in violent crime than any other ethnic group, they are the fastest growing minority group in the prison population. "
" Although white people are more likely to take drugs, for instance, nearly 75 per cent of people in US prisons for drug offences are black or Latino."

So, if more white people are committing the crime of doing drugs, and they're the majority population of the US, why are they so underrepresented in prison? HOLY SHIT, it's almost like I'M FUCKING RIGHT. I'm done with this bullshit. I'm in a fuck-ton of pain right now and I can't be asked to deal with such blatant ignorance.

All of this is pure conjecture.

It' CONJECTURE that someone who cheats on their <$20,000 income taxes is more likely to face jail time than someone who cheats on their >$1 Million income taxes? Bull fucking shit. People pay fines when they cheat the system by not reporting their tips (hell, most of the time, if they're that poor, they didn't actually owe anything in the first place).

Apr 2, 2017#35

GasBandit

figmentPez said:
It doesn't? ABC News Australia says different
" in the US prison system, although Latinos are less likely to be involved in violent crime than any other ethnic group, they are the fastest growing minority group in the prison population. "
" Although white people are more likely to take drugs, for instance, nearly 75 per cent of people in US prisons for drug offences are black or Latino."

The first is because Latinos are the fastest growing minority group, full stop, and the second is comparing a per-capita figure to a total. And even if it wasn't, it doesn't cover the gap. Plus, the exact wording is "more likely to have experimented with drugs." That means it could be a 1-and-done in the privacy of a home with no recidivism. Also, the drug narrative is inflated:

Prison populations by crime-

While drug convictions did see a drastic uptick between 1986 and 1997, it is still far outstripped by violent offenders.

HOLY SHIT, it's almost like I'M FUCKING RIGHT. I'm done with this bullshit. I'm in a fuck-ton of pain right now and I can't be asked to deal with such blatant ignorance.

Then by all means, take a break. Get back to me later, or don't, whatever. I'm not here to cause pain.

It' CONJECTURE that someone who cheats on their <$20,000 income taxes is more likely to face jail time than someone who cheats on their >$1 Million income taxes? Bull fucking shit. People pay fines when they cheat the system by not reporting their tips (hell, most of the time, if they're that poor, they didn't actually owe anything in the first place).

Any unsourced conclusions are, by their very nature, conjecture. It's also not a very representative crime statistic - about 2000 people are convicted a year for tax crime, compared to roughly 140,000-180,000 per year on drug charges and over 1 million/year for violent crime.[DOUBLEPOST=1491179025,1491178898][/DOUBLEPOST]

Vrii said:
You know what? Let's get this out in the open. Gas: you're arguing pretty forcefully to support the idea that black people commit significantly more crime than white people do - why? What's the conclusion that this is supporting for you?

Because it is a fact - a fact that seems to shock people so badly they refuse to believe it, and brand people who state the fact - IE, Jon Jafari - as racist for doing so. And I don't like witch hunts.

Apr 2, 2017#36

PatrThom

Yoshimickster said:
True, true. I said maybe given it was a prank and he supposedly doesn't believe that, but yeah he has freaking sponsors and shit.

*had

--Patrick

Apr 2, 2017#37

Yoshimickster

PatrThom said:
*had

--Patrick

I know, I meant its dumb taking such chances when your language is sponsored. He's basically the Youtube's Don Imus.

Edit: Oh lord I wrote "The Youtube's", did I just turn seventy for a second?

Apr 2, 2017#38

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
And I don't like witch hunts.

Neither do witches.

Apr 2, 2017#39

GasBandit

Ravenpoe said:
Neither do witches.

Thing is, hunts happen quite often regardless of the presence or absence of witches.

Apr 2, 2017#40

Vrii

GasBandit said:
Because it is a fact - a fact that seems to shock people so badly they refuse to believe it, and brand people who state the fact - IE, Jon Jafari - as racist for doing so. And I don't like witch hunts.

If we accept it - completely devoid of any context and potentially the result of cherry-picked data, but regardless - as a fact, what does it prove? What conclusion is it supporting? Black people go to prison more than white people, therefore...?

Apr 2, 2017#41

GasBandit

Vrii said:
If we accept it - completely devoid of any context and potentially the result of cherry-picked data, but regardless - as a fact, what does it prove? What conclusion is it supporting? Black people go to prison more than white people, therefore...?

The context of the quote, in the video, happens at 36:11 (should cue up automatically).

Destiny: If you wanted to fix crime in the United States, the best way to do it would be to deport all of the poor people, because poor whites commit a lot of crime, too. Disproportionately compared to wealthier whites.
JonTron: That's just not true. But you ca...
Destiny: WAITWAITWAITWAITWAIT
JonTron: Wait, relative to wealthier whites, yes, you're correct.
Destiny: So do you think poor blacks commit more crime relative to wealthier black people?
JonTron: They do. Wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites. That's a fact.
Destiny: Wait, what?
Jontron: Look it up. BRB, gotta go get water.
Destiny: (stunned silence).... does anybody have a source for that?

Jon is poking holes in Destiny's assertion that crime has its roots purely in economic causes ("deporting all the poor people would fix crime"), instead asserting that there is also a cultural element. Black american culture has a well documented and oft lamented tendency to celebrate and glorify criminal enterprise as part of its identity. While there is an economic element, there is also a cultural one, and Jafari is not a racist for pointing that out.

Apr 2, 2017#42

Vrii

I'm really, really uninterested in what two internet personalities have to say about this. I was asking why you feel the need to defend it - and apparently it's because you believe that "white" culture is superior to "black" culture. Fair to say?

Apr 2, 2017#43

DarkAudit

Vrii said:
I'm really, really uninterested in what two internet personalities have to say about this.

This. IDGAF about JonTron, Pewdiepie, or h3h3 (now that they've jumped in to litter my internets with this crap). Nothing they do or say has any relevance to the wider world, if the wider world even knows who these idiots are. They only serve to get certain tiny little corners of the interweb's knickers in a twist.

Apr 2, 2017#44

Hailey Knight

Not to be a downer, but a lot of kids watch their shows. That's not nothing considering the way we're seeing members of our generation twist toward the alt right. It could be worse the next go-round.

Apr 2, 2017#45

DarkAudit

Zero Esc said:
Not to be a downer, but a lot of kids watch their shows. That's not nothing considering the way we're seeing members of our generation twist toward the alt right. It could be worse the next go-round.

Define "a lot." O'Reilly keeps bragging about his YUGE ratings, but compared to actual network television, it's a drop in a bucket that's a drop in a bucket. Have you ever heard anyone mention these guys outside of the internet?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Apr 2, 2017#46

Hailey Knight

DarkAudit said:
Define "a lot." O'Reilly keeps bragging about his YUGE ratings, but compared to actual network television, it's a drop in a bucket that's a drop in a bucket. Have you ever heard anyone mention these guys outside of the internet?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes. My cousins and their friends were nuts over PewdiePie last year. Apparently he was a big deal to their school. No idea how they feel now or if they still watch, but keep in mind he had business with Disney.

Doesn't anymore, of course. They don't like Nazi shit, regardless of whether or not the person believes in it.

Apr 3, 2017#47

GasBandit

Vrii said:
I'm really, really uninterested in what two internet personalities have to say about this. I was asking why you feel the need to defend it - and apparently it's because you believe that "white" culture is superior to "black" culture. Fair to say?

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I created this thread to keep this discussion out of the movie thread, but the discussion started when Frank, for the second or third time that I can remember, said that JonTron is a "racist, ethnic superiority nazi" with other people bandwagoning on the trashtalk express. I asked for evidence. I've still yet to hear anything that indicates Jafari is a nazi, a white supremacist, or even a plain old racist. I refuted the examples given me, and await more, if they're coming. There have been ZERO value judgements coming out of me. You're asserting that facts are racist, as are those that speak them, if they're uncomfortable to minorities and those that white knight them.

DarkAudit said:
This. IDGAF about JonTron, Pewdiepie, or h3h3 (now that they've jumped in to litter my internets with this crap). Nothing they do or say has any relevance to the wider world, if the wider world even knows who these idiots are. They only serve to get certain tiny little corners of the interweb's knickers in a twist.

What Zero said. Pewdiepie basically owns the soul of most americans under 10. Youtube is the new TV for kids these days. People are taking their kids to live appearances of people who play minecraft on youtube for a living. All my best friend's 8 year old daughter wants to do, ever, is play Roblox and watch Youtube. Simultaneously.

Apr 3, 2017#48

Dei

GasBandit said:
People are taking their kids to live appearances of people who play minecraft on youtube for a living.

My ears are burning.

Apr 3, 2017#49

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
All my best friend's 8 year old daughter wants to do, ever, is play Roblox and watch Youtube. Simultaneously.

Have 7yr-old. Can confirm.
Stampy Longnose, PopularMMOs, SquiddyPlays, EvanTubeHD. All. Day. Long.
He found and played Larva on Netflix today. It so incredibly stupid and juvenile, but I couldn't stop watching it help me.

--Patrick

Apr 3, 2017#50

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Youtube is the new TV for kids these days.

Exactly. This is what I was looking to say, but couldn't find the words.

Apr 3, 2017#51

fade

All that map of people self-reporting whether they want people of other ethnicities living near them shows me is the current political mood. People gave the answer they felt like they were supposed to. It may have very little correlation with what they actually feel.

As for lefties feeling that other cultures are wonderful and do no wrong, I can safely say I have never met any actual human being who believes this. This is the classic mistake people make about tolerance vs agreement. I am free to believe that a great number of cultures out there are wrong about a great number of their ideals. But I can completely, separately tolerate them.[DOUBLEPOST=1491230018,1491229645][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
The context of the quote, in the video, happens at 36:11 (should cue up automatically).

Jon is poking holes in Destiny's assertion that crime has its roots purely in economic causes ("deporting all the poor people would fix crime"), instead asserting that there is also a cultural element. Black american culture has a well documented and oft lamented tendency to celebrate and glorify criminal enterprise as part of its identity. While there is an economic element, there is also a cultural one, and Jafari is not a racist for pointing that out.

You do have a point here. No, he's not a racist for pointing this out. In fact, pointing it out is key to a progressive discussion. As long as we can also talk about the probable underlying cause for this. You don't poop in your bed unless you don't think of it as your bed because you feel like you've been excluded from the bed.

This is actually the same problem people on the left have with gun control discussion. You can't even talk about it, because people immediately jump to conclusions and won't even permit the discussion.

Apr 3, 2017#52

Bubble181

fade said:
As for lefties feeling that other cultures are wonderful and do no wrong, I can safely say I have never met any actual human being who believes this. This is the classic mistake people make about tolerance vs agreement. I am free to believe that a great number of cultures out there are wrong about a great number of their ideals. But I can completely, separately tolerate them.

I have, and plenty of them. No, not two or three. Yes, I admit I went to a (certainly by American standards) very left-wing university.I have met organized groups of (white) people who very honestly and seriously believe we (white people) are to blame for all that is wrong in the world and the Earth would be better off without us - all problems of black people, Muslims, the reason communism failed in the USSR - they're all directly linked to white capitalist men calling the shots and abusing people of color and/or other cultures. Without white men, the world would be a better place where Europe and Asia would be communist utopias, America and Africa would be hippie-native-freedom tribal societies living with, not against, nature in gigantic nature reserves, and so on. Their cultural relativism knows no bounds, and in some ways, they're as arrogant (and racist) as anyone I've met on the far right - assuming "we" are pretty much Evil and all those others are free from any blame - but "we"' somehow managed to corrupt all of "them".

By which, for the record, I don't mean this is a very common or normal view - of course I'm talking about fringe political parties and organizations. Racial guilt complex crap.

Anyway, the whole point of "Is it racist?" comes down to something else than "Black people commit more crimes". The point is the argument being made. If you say "Black people commit more crimes because they're black", then, yes, sorry, that's racist. If you want to make another point about cultural/societal problems, have fun.
Poor people commit more crimes - black people are more often poor.
Lower-education commit more crimes - black people are lower-schooled on average.
Urban people commit more crimes - and black people are far more concentrated in the cities (especially the poor).
And so on, and so forth. Besides, it's fun to just throw around numbers, but things add up. Since I don't want ot do the legwork to get the exact numbers, let's spitball. And yes, this means these numbers don't mean anything. Checking on line I find that for most violent crime, the difference between poorest and richest is more or less double the rate. Between urban vs rural, it's about a 40% difference (I looked at international studies, where, you know, in some countries race doesn't factor into that equation. It doesn't matter much). Let's assume that because of police discrimination you have 10% more chance of walking away with something if you're white (a white guy and a black guy smoke a joint in the street, who'll get arrested?). I admit this number is completely pulled out of my ass - for smaller infraction the difference is likely much bigger, while for big crimes it may be smaller (though racist police might "look no further" once they have a black murder suspect and all that jazz so there might still be a difference). Let's say another 10% difference in chance of getting convicted because of racism in the jury. And another 10% odds that the white guy'll get a suspended sentence or have the sentence commuted. Suddenly a black guy has over five times as much chance of ending up in jail than a white guy, completely because of other factors. Play around with some of the numbers, throw in some other factors such as prejudice in the "war on drugs" and so forth and "8x more likely to end up in prison" is nothing, really - and speaks more to systemic racism being a serious problem than anything else.

Apr 3, 2017#53

fade

Well, I don't think "why" even entered into his argument. I don't think he was saying "because they're black". I don't think he cared. He just wanted the numerical support. That's why, like you, I said okay, but let's talk about why.

Apr 3, 2017#54

Necronic

2 things

1). Jontron is half Iranian, which is just kind of funny in context

2) As a scientist I find stuff like the graphs on the last page so irritating because it takes so long to dismalntle that it doesn't even feel like it's worth the time. It takes all of 20 minutes to create bad science. It takes hours to discredit it, because that requires good science, and that assumes people will actually take the time to read it. Which they probably won't, because if they had the ability to distinguish good science from bad science they wouldn't have been bamboozled in the first place.

It's also irritating to me because this kind of "agenda science" is almost unilaterally promoted by people who don't seem to have the slightest chops in scientific method. Which makes it a pita to argue with them in the first place, but moreover it just reeks of that armchair quarterbacking as well, where someone only looks at the most exciting part of the game and assumes they could do everything because they think they understand that one thing.

I mean most of everything on the previous page could be invalidated by reviewing the PRESS scores of the models, which Mind Detective hinted at. But for that statement to even have any meaning I would have to give a few years a stats courses.

Apr 3, 2017#55

Vrii

GasBandit said:
No, you're putting words in my mouth. I created this thread to keep this discussion out of the movie thread, but the discussion started when Frank, for the second or third time that I can remember, said that JonTron is a "racist, ethnic superiority nazi" with other people bandwagoning on the trashtalk express. I asked for evidence. I've still yet to hear anything that indicates Jafari is a nazi, a white supremacist, or even a plain old racist. I refuted the examples given me, and await more, if they're coming. There have been ZERO value judgements coming out of me. You're asserting that facts are racist, as are those that speak them, if they're uncomfortable to minorities and those that white knight them.

Who's putting words where, again? I've been asking for your opinion, and you're happily dodging the question and telling me what I'm asserting.

Apr 3, 2017#56

GasBandit

Vrii said:
Who's putting words where, again? I've been asking for your opinion, and you're happily dodging the question and telling me what I'm asserting.

You've asked me, basically, three times, "just say you're a racist already" and no, I am not a racist. I've now overexplained myself. Other people in the thread get it. You can, too!

Apr 3, 2017#57

Vrii

GasBandit said:
You've asked me, basically, three times, "just say you're a racist already" and no, I am not a racist. I've now overexplained myself. Other people in the thread get it. You can, too!

I've been looking for you to take any stance at all in the interest of being able to actually engage with anything you're arguing - since that's obviously not going to happen, I'll stop wasting my time.

Apr 3, 2017#58

GasBandit

Vrii said:
I've been looking for you to take any stance at all in the interest of being able to actually engage with anything you're arguing - since that's obviously not going to happen, I'll stop wasting my time.

No, you were looking to bamboozle me into taking a stance that one culture is "better" than another, when that isn't my position and is irrelevant. The only position I've taken here is that it has yet to actually be shown that Jon Jafari is a racist, as I said. People just seem to ache to find a witch to burn.

Apr 4, 2017#59

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
That's not the whole story of what happened. Despite having a restraining order, she went to HIS home and spent the night there. The next day during an argument, she went into the garage, where her car was, despite both later testifying they knew each the garage door would't open and there being two other unobstructed exits from the house. She was not "being strangled." She got her (legally owned) gun out of her car, went BACK into the kitchen, and aimed it at him. Her "warning shot" hit the wall near him at the level of his head, not "fired into the air." Sounds less like a warning shot and more like a miss, to me. The guy and the kids (who were in the line of fire, by the way) fled the house and called 911, which she did not. Then, when she was out on bail, she went BACK to his house and attacked him, injuring his face. She ended up making a plea deal for time served plus a couple months. All this is in the court documents.

So you're saying she followed him around and they got into a fight?

From your 2nd link:

After Mr. Gray accused her of infidelity and questioned the paternity
of
her week
-old baby
, she testified, she locked the bathroom door, yelling at him to
leave
, but
Mr. Gray broke through the door
, grabbed her by her neck, and
demand
ed to know when she las
t had
sexual relations with her ex-
husband.
She
tried to push past him but he shoved her hard into the bathroom door.
After
struggling for what felt like an “eternity,”
she testified,
he
relented
and she ran
from the bathroom straight to the garage.
On
ce inside the garage, appellant testified,
she
tried to leave
the premises
altogether
but could not get the garage door open,
and
instead
retrieved
a gun
(for
which she had a permit) from the glove compartment
of a vehicle in the garage
.
She then walked back into the house, she said, holding the gun
by h
er side because
she did not know whether Mr. Gray had left or not.
As she wa
lked into the
kitchen,
Mr. Gray saw the
gun, and
charged her “in a rage,” saying, “
Bitch, I’ll kill
you.”
Startled, she raised the gun into the air and fired. Mr. Gray ran.
According
to appellant, she was forced to fire her gun into the air as a warning shot because it
was the “lesser of two evils.”

Of course the pdf is edited badly...

But it kind of contradicts your "clarification".

GasBandit said:
Then, when she was out on bail, she went BACK to his house and attacked him, injuring his face.

Oh noes, that totally doesn't have any parallels to that other situation!

GasBandit said:
You're changing the parameters. The data shown clearly shows that only the top 10% of each are close, and then by a fraction of a percentage. That aside, all levels of black people, rich or poor, have a higher tendency to end up in prison than white people, rich or poor.

Ok, it's been a while, but i recall hearing the statement that Rich Blacks commit more crimes then any Whites... which your chart clearly disproves.

GasBandit said:
Well, if it's a thing, chances are there's documentation of it online, yes?

Sure, here, enjoy: http://www.romanialibera.ro/actuali...a-franta-pentru-intoleranta-si-rasism--376673 http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-diaspor...-rasist-impotriva-romanilor-lansat-italia.htm

GasBandit said:
That's a non sequitur (and laziness, telling me to google things to support your argument).

In my experience, people who don't bother looking things up when you tell them, won't change their tune if you post sources anyway.

But hey, here's what 5s on google turned up: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36656348

GasBandit said:
On a note related to the crime rates:
Study finds all-white juries convict black defendants 16% more often than white - not 4-10 times more.

And on another related note, what's 600 to 700 over 200? What, you really though i wouldn't notice how you ignored MJ back there? And that's just one of Spidey's girlfriends...[DOUBLEPOST=1491316008,1491315784][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
Destiny: If you wanted to fix crime in the United States, the best way to do it would be to deport all of the poor people, because poor whites commit a lot of crime, too. Disproportionately compared to wealthier whites.
JonTron: That's just not true. But you ca...
Destiny: WAITWAITWAITWAITWAIT
JonTron: Wait, relative to wealthier whites, yes, you're correct.
Destiny: So do you think poor blacks commit more crime relative to wealthier black people?
JonTron: They do. Wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites. That's a fact.
Destiny: Wait, what?
Jontron: Look it up. BRB, gotta go get water.
Destiny: (stunned silence).... does anybody have a source for that?

Now this is just funny considering what i said above...[DOUBLEPOST=1491316142][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
The only position I've taken here is that it has yet to actually be shown that Jon Jafari is a racist, as I said.

So what is his stance on fixing black culture then? Because if he also asserts it's just culture at fault, then surely he's in favour of reforming it for the sake of the people corrupted by it.

Apr 4, 2017#60

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
So you're saying she followed him around and they got into a fight?

No, there was an fight, she went to the garage, got a gun, and came back.

From your 2nd link:
Of course the pdf is edited badly...
But it kind of contradicts your "clarification".

You're quoting the defendant's testimony. I quoted the court's findings.

Oh noes, that totally doesn't have any parallels to that other situation!

Goalposts. You've changed the situation. Before it was the Treyvon Martin shooting, now you're linking his arrest for aggravated assault on his girlfriend. Same guy, different situation, and also noteworthy that she dropped charges and lifted the restraining order on him. Not that Zimmerman isn't a violent tool.

Ok, it's been a while, but i recall hearing the statement that Rich Blacks commit more crimes then any Whites... which your chart clearly disproves.

No, the statement in question is Rich Blacks/Poor whites.

Sure, here, enjoy: http://www.romanialibera.ro/actuali...a-franta-pentru-intoleranta-si-rasism--376673 http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-diaspor...-rasist-impotriva-romanilor-lansat-italia.htm

Now you're just trolling. You know quite well I can't read Romanian.

In my experience, people who don't bother looking things up when you tell them, won't change their tune if you post sources anyway.

But hey, here's what 5s on google turned up: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36656348

Some people are assholes. That's a given anywhere. But note how that article talks about the concurrent upswell of solidarity and support for Poles in the British community - which obviously is portrayed as a good thing, supported by the culture. The post-Brexit attacks on Poles are vilified, not celebrated.

And on another related note, what's 600 to 700 over 200? What, you really though i wouldn't notice how you ignored MJ back there? And that's just one of Spidey's girlfriends...

Still a drop in the bucket comapared to violent crime incarceration. But now you've got me curious, Spider-Man's girlfriends represent controlled substances? What drug is Gwen Stacy? I'm guessing Felicia is Cocaine.

So what is his stance on fixing black culture then? Because if he also asserts it's just culture at fault, then surely he's in favour of reforming it for the sake of the people corrupted by it.

It was not used in that context, it was being used to disprove that the higher crime rate of black people compared to white people was rooted only in economic causes.

Apr 25, 2017#61

@Li3n

Just one thing... i was quoting the text in your links... if you wanted me to see the court's findings, you should have linked to them instead.

No, the statement in question is Rich Blacks/Poor whites.

Which is still not supported by that graph... i mean we're seeing the same one, right?

Now you're just trolling. You know quite well I can't read Romanian.

Hey, remember when trolling meant more then just being an ass on the internet?

What drug is Gwen Stacy?

I don't know, what's the drug that kills you if you stop it too suddenly? Alcohol, i guess...

was rooted only in economic causes.

Implying economic causes don't affect culture? See: chavs, or Die Antwoord;

Apr 25, 2017#62

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
Just one thing... i was quoting the text in your links... if you wanted me to see the court's findings, you should have linked to them instead.

The findings *were* in the link. It summarized the defendant's claim as part of the process of issuing its findings.

Which is still not supported by that graph... i mean we're seeing the same one, right?

Yeah, it kinda is.

Implying economic causes don't affect culture? See: chavs, or Die Antwoord;

That wasn't implied at all, and is a massive non sequitur.

Apr 25, 2017#63

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
The findings *were* in the link. It summarized the defendant's claim as part of the process of issuing its findings.

Oh right, it's in one of the foot notes of the 1st link... i tend to disregard those. I blame school.

Anyway, the fact that the appeal judgement says the jury was wrongly instructed about the burden of proof is still enough to show a difference between how her and Zimmerman where treated by the courts.

GasBandit said:
Yeah, it kinda is.

I literally held a ruler to the graph, and the 10 for black people is only higher then 2 of the poor white ones, which are also lower then all the other ones (one hispanic is the same as the higher one). Unless you mean rich blacks commit more crimes then a few, specially selected whites, it really doesn't.

Also, why are there no 10's for the Hispanics?

GasBandit said:
That wasn't implied at all, and is a massive non sequitur.

Then what other factors would there be that make black people more prone to crime?

Apr 25, 2017#64

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
Oh right, it's in one of the foot notes of the 1st link... i tend to disregard those. I blame school.

That is definitely NOT something you can do in a court/legal document

Anyway, the fact that the appeal judgement says the jury was wrongly instructed about the burden of proof is still enough to show a difference between how her and Zimmerman where treated by the courts.

That's quite a rhetorical leap.

I literally held a ruler to the graph, and the 10 for black people is only higher then 2 of the poor white ones, which are also lower then all the other ones (one hispanic is the same as the higher one). Unless you mean rich blacks commit more crimes then a few, specially selected whites, it really doesn't.

You're only taking the richEST 10%, because it suits your narrative. Try comparing the top half of the black to the bottom half of the white. Or even the top third to the bottom third.

Also, why are there no 10's for the Hispanics?

That, I couldn't tell you. I guess none of the top 10% of Hispanics in their study ended up in prison. I didn't much worry about it since it wasn't pertinent to the discussion.

Then what other factors would there be that make black people more prone to crime?

You're trying to change the argument. The argument put forth was that economic disadvantage was the sole cause of crime. Literally states as "you could eliminate crime by deporting all the poor people." The data shows that not to be the case. The data does NOT show that economics have no effect on culture, nor does it postulate the cause for the higher crime rate among black Americans. You're trying to frame the argument in a way that puts me as using that chart data to illustrate a cause, instead of an effect.

Sep 11, 2017#65

@Li3n

Nigger, nigger, nigger...

Relax guys, it's just something we do on the internet... it's like saying asshole.

....

And of course now i have to address the old stuff:

GasBandit said:
You're only taking the richEST 10%, because it suits your narrative. Try comparing the top half of the black to the bottom half of the white. Or even the top third to the bottom third.

Or, you know, because it completely negates there being some innate element to it (unless you argue that money can change genetics / your brain by proximity), so one can dismiss the idea that this is some sort of actual difference between "races".

GasBandit said:
You're trying to change the argument. The argument put forth was that economic disadvantage was the sole cause of crime. Literally states as "you could eliminate crime by deporting all the poor people." The data shows that not to be the case. The data does NOT show that economics have no effect on culture, nor does it postulate the cause for the higher crime rate among black Americans. You're trying to frame the argument in a way that puts me as using that chart data to illustrate a cause, instead of an effect.

And effect of what? You can't separate cause and effect IRL.

Saying you're just talking about the effect is dishonest.

Sep 11, 2017#66

GasBandit

Really? Necroposting this after 5 months?

Sep 11, 2017#67

Bubble181

GasBandit said:
Really? Necroposting this after 5 months?

PewDiePie said "nigger" during a stream this weekend, so it makes some sense. It's back in the news and stuff.

Sep 11, 2017#68

PatrThom

Yeah. Casual racism is suddenly and completely unexpectedly a current event again.

--Patrick

Sep 11, 2017#69

GasBandit

I feel a bit gratified that none of my news sources deigned to inform me about the latest "news" about Pewdiepie.

Sep 11, 2017#70

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Really? Necroposting this after 5 months?

Dude, i posted the n-word trice, in big font... maybe take a hint or something.

Sep 11, 2017#71

Yoshimickster

Huh, so a minor celebrity spouted the n-word a bunch and is now paying for it....anyone feel like watching Signfeld?

Sep 11, 2017#72

@Li3n

Yoshimickster said:
Huh, so a minor celebrity spouted the n-word a bunch and is now paying for it....anyone feel like watching Signfeld?

Well, just once, but it was clearly meant as an insult towards someone just because they did something.

Sep 11, 2017#73

blotsfan

And as many people have pointed out. If a word accidentally slips out, it means it's a word that's regularly part of your vocabulary.

Sep 11, 2017#74

GasBandit

I'm not going to defend Pewdie, but I will say that some Northern Europeans very often don't "get" what the big deal is about many American racial no-no words. They haven't been steeped in the background and racial tension their entire lives, and when you try to explain it to them, they think it sounds tiresome and insane.

I went through a similar problem trying to explain to Pauline why she can't call people "uppity." Her Dutch upbringing completely insulated her from things that every American has had drilled into them since they could talk.

Sep 11, 2017#75

blotsfan

Uppity has racist connotations, but isn't inherently racist. There is no non-racist context for the n-word. He's just a racist. This isn't the first time we've seen evidence of that, and I'm betting it won't be the last.

Sep 11, 2017#76

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
I'm not going to defend Pewdie, but I will say that some Northern Europeans very often don't "get" what the big deal is about many American racial no-no words. They haven't been steeped in the background and racial tension their entire lives, and when you try to explain it to them, they think it sounds tiresome and insane.

I went through a similar problem trying to explain to Pauline why she can't call people "uppity." Her Dutch upbringing completely insulated her from things that every American has had drilled into them since they could talk.

Except uppity is an actual english word that meant something before being turned into a dog-whistle.

While "nigger" is a word borrowed from romance languages for one purpose.

And he even replaced it with "asshole" after he realised what he said.

Then again, he's not necessarily racist, he might just be spending too much time being an edgelord... the issue is that that still encourages nazis. And if you're unintentionally doing that, you really should tell them to fuck off in a clear and concise manner.

Sep 11, 2017#77

Frank

He's a manchild raised on the internet. Everything he says leads me to believe that he's barely educated and not that bright. He's incredibly ignorant and no one should be letting their kids spend all their time watching him.

Sep 11, 2017#78

PatrThom

Frank said:
He's a manchild raised on the internet. Everything he says leads me to believe that he's barely educated and not that bright. He's incredibly ignorant and no one should be letting their kids spend all their time watching him.

You've probably also just described Pat.

--Patrick

Sep 13, 2017#79

Gruebeard

GasBandit said:
I feel a bit gratified that none of my news sources deigned to inform me about the latest "news" about Pewdiepie.

You're lucky.

My main source of news told me.

@Bubble181's really become quite the gossip columnist.

Sep 13, 2017#80

Bubble181

Gruebeard said:
@Bubble181's really become quite the gossip columnist.

10 easy ways to lose a sixpack in just 5 days! Click here for more info!

Sep 13, 2017#81

Dei

Regardless of your opinion on what Pewdiepie should or should not say, Jimquisition brought up some good points on why he should stop being an idiot.

Sep 13, 2017#82

mikerc

Bubble181 said:
10 easy ways to lose a sixpack in just 5 days! Click here for more info!

Why would I want to lose sixpack? He has a dog for an avatar! If anything we need to get rid of some of these damn cats that are infesting the forum.

Sep 13, 2017#83

Terrik

mikerc said:
Why would I want to lose sixpack? He has a dog for an avatar! If anything we need to get rid of some of these damn cats that are infesting the forum.

Sep 13, 2017#84

PatrThom

Terrik said:

Please tell me the characters are also altered to match.

--Patrick

Sep 13, 2017#85

ScytheRexx

It drives me a bit nuts all the people defending it as "just stuff people say over the internet", like "faggot".

It's the same stupid bullshit as "boys locker room talk" in regards to bragging about sexual assault.

Listen, I don't even think PewDiePie is necessarily racist, it's just idiots have been using said words on the internet for so long to be edgy and "anti-pc" that they have stained the whole damn community. When you literally live and breath games like he does for work and play, it becomes inevitable you are going to hear those words and likely blurt it out in turn yourself like an idiot.

We shouldn't be excusing this language as just something gamers do though. That is the greater problem here, and why I am glad it's getting attention.

Sep 13, 2017#86

GasBandit

Prepubescents were calling me those things this very night in PUBG, in open voice chat. Yyyyyep.

Sep 14, 2017#87

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Prepubescents were calling me those things this very night in PUBG, in open voice chat. Yyyyyep.

Don't tell me you're not inured to it by now.

--Patrick

Sep 14, 2017#88

Dei

GasBandit said:
Prepubescents were calling me those things this very night in PUBG, in open voice chat. Yyyyyep.

PUBG Public chat is basically just a bunch of 12 year olds trying to be cool by saying bad words over and over again. Online games are toxic as fuck.

Sep 14, 2017#89

PatrThom

Dei said:
PUBG Public chat is basically just a bunch of 12 year olds trying to be cool by saying bad words over and over again. Online games are toxic as fuck.

It's fun how they think it'll affect serious gameplay, though.

--Patrick

Sep 14, 2017#90

ScytheRexx

I actually wonder, Jeff Kaplan made a new Overwatch developer update today just talking about playing nice and not being toxic. It makes me wonder if the whole PewDiePie controversy sparked his desire to make it.

Oct 6, 2017#91

Null

The thing is, this isn't the first time this shit has come up with Pewpiedie. Like, just about a year ago he got in trouble for paying two Sri Lankans to hold up a sign saying "DEATH TO ALL JEWS" on one of his broadcasts.

That shit cost him a deal with Disney and revenue from YouTube Red, if I recall correctly.

Oct 6, 2017#92

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Prepubescents were calling me those things this very night in PUBG, in open voice chat. Yyyyyep.

And that would be fine if it didn't leak IRL. Or if, when it did, people would take a look at themselves instead of blaming the media, or other people of being "too sensitive".

Oct 7, 2017#93

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
And that would be fine if it didn't leak IRL.

I don't think I agree with this.

Oct 7, 2017#94

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
I don't think I agree with this.

Well, make up your damn mind...

...

Also, i meant that it's fine if you just being an asshole online to blow off steam, or just fuck around with breaking some social rules to feel naughty etc. But, if you're really only doing it for those reasons, it really shouldn't "leak" IRL, because you don't actually believe any of that.

Of course, when you stare into the abyss... you know the saying.

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