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#Israel #War #Gaza

Nov 14, 2012#1

Necronic

Read the most recent tweets.

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/

Did they just declare war via Twitter? Ignoring the whole Israel V Palestine debate for a moment, wtf is going on in the world that a major militarized nation does this on Twitter. The security issues alone (like what would happen if someone hacked the IDF twitter account and started announcing other "make-believe" wars on twitter) are astounding.

Ed: More on it here

http://gizmodo.com/5960528/israel-announces-war-campaign-via-twitter

Ed2: It's a bit hard to follow because it looks like the IDF has been deleting a couple of the more "we're going to war" posts.

Nov 14, 2012#2

Dave

Weird. And stupid. I still think Isreal has a right to exist, but think what they are doing in Palestine is an abomination. Just because they are our friends doesn't mean that they can't do stupid and terrible things.

Nov 14, 2012#3

Ravenpoe

Israel is that buddy of yours that always has to start shit when you go out together. Dammit Israel, put your shirt back on, you're drunk.

Nov 14, 2012#4

GasBandit

I feel no sympathy for Hamas.

Nov 14, 2012#5

blotsfan

Israel needs to stop launching rockets into palestine and intentionally killing palestinian civilians while
using their own civilians as human shields.

Oh wait...

Nov 14, 2012#6

North_Ranger

Let's just agree that in this fight, both sides have been wallowing in shit since the 1930s.

Nov 14, 2012#7

GasBandit

Pretty sure there's a law somewhere that says this has to be posted once per israel thread, so let's go ahead and get that done - "The Difference."

Nov 14, 2012#8

sixpackshaker

Israel is white on the left side, and Hamas is white on the right side...[DOUBLEPOST=1352928270][/DOUBLEPOST]

Nov 14, 2012#9

TommiR

Necronic said:
Did they just declare war via Twitter? Ignoring the whole Israel V Palestine debate for a moment, wtf is going on in the world that a major militarized nation does this on Twitter. The security issues alone (like what would happen if someone hacked the IDF twitter account and started announcing other "make-believe" wars on twitter) are astounding.

Don't worry, this isn't a 'DoW via Twitter'. Israel is engaged in an anti-terrorist operation in the Gaza strip against Hamas, just like it has several times before, and the tweets are a part of domestic propaganda and perception management.

I particularly like this one:

IDFSpokesperson said:
We recommend that no Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead.

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/268780918209118208

Nov 14, 2012#10

AshburnerX

I honestly would have said "Free party for senior Hamas members! All the Falafal you can eat! Make sure you wear your colors so the party patrol can find you!"

Nov 17, 2012#11

JCM

Its like watching two big jocks going at each other, no matter who wins, they're both assholes.

Yeah, one lives well while making millions of Palestinians live in a ghetto-like existence, frequently blowing up power lines and water pipes to punish them, and actually needs the terrorism to grab more land for the sake of "security" (a better example of Gasbandit's image would be the Israeli soldier with 2 cribs, one he stole from the Palestinian kid, while the kid lays on the floor, still being used as a human shield).

The other is an ignorant group that forgets that aside from a few hundred thousand original Palestinians, most were kicked out from their original countries and are actually refugees or children of refugees, and yet Israel is the only evil, not their original countries.

Sadly Israel, short-term, is doing what it must to get as much land as it can, as the situation makes it sensitive to get any world watchdog to stop them.
Palestine? Its basically using the fact that almost every Palestinian has a family member or loved one who was killed by an Israeli, use a Jihad to maintain control of the starving masses.

Long-term? They are both fucked the day 2-3 Islamic nations get nukes.

Nov 17, 2012#12

AshburnerX

JCM said:
Long-term? They are both fucked the day 2-3 Islamic nations get nukes.

... and that's when it becomes clear to the rest of the Arabs just how little they cared for the Palestinians.

Nov 18, 2012#13

JCM

AshburnerX said:
... and that's when it becomes clear to the rest of the Arabs just how little they cared for the Palestinians.

I had been a Muslim for a good 10 years, before I saw that like every damn other religion, it was being used merely to manipulate others, at the cost of human suffering.

Sadly its a young religion, after the enlightenment phase (which saw the birth of Sufism, and the best medicine in its time) it entered its "KILL ALL INFIDELS/ENEMIES/WITCHES PHASE" that the Jews and Christians passed through centuries ago, expect at least a 100 years more of bloodshed before it loses its grip on the masses and they get out of the Arab Dark ages, to the "irrelevant but endlessly trying to butt into politics to force others to live their way" phase that most religions end up.

Nov 18, 2012#14

Silent Bob

Ahem, I would like to adopt my Philly dialect to express my feelings on the matter: Fuckem both. I used to care about Palestine and the situation in the Middle East. I really did. But I'm tired. I want the Middle East to just blow each other up so the rest of us can live in peace.

Nov 19, 2012#15

Bubble181

Eh, the sad thing, for me, is that this time around, there really is NO reason whatsoever.
The ONLY reason people are dying right now is because there's an election coming up in Israel. The hawks were falling in the polls, because, aside from Protect Us From the War, their politics and points make about as much sense as that of the Tea Party, so they decided to screw the slow-but-sure peace process that was going on to refocus Israeli politics on the War. Heaven forbid an election that's about education, labour costs, pension plans, the economy in general, state services,....They might lose.

That's not me being cynical - that's honestly exactly what's going on. Hamas' leaders don't need a lot to start shooting - they're constantly with their backs against the wall as it is, with their supporters thinking they're being weak and too slow and too political. Israel just needs to give a little shove, Hamas/PLO/Al Aqsa can choose to either fight, or lose all support. So they strike back - and Israel has all the excuse it needs to continue another cycle of war, which practically guarantees another hawk victory.

Nov 19, 2012#16

TommiR

Be that as it may, the situation as it was prior to the current Israeli offensive was intolerable by all western notions. Israel was taking, if not daily then at least weekly rocket fire from the Gaza strip into their civilian population centers. It is quite obvious that Hamas has either not the inclination or the capability to stop the attacks. What exactly would you have Israel do?

Nov 19, 2012#17

Bubble181

TommiR said:
Be that as it may, the situation as it was prior to the current Israeli offensive was intolerable by all western notions. Israel was taking, if not daily then at least weekly rocket fire from the Gaza strip into their civilian population centers. It is quite obvious that Hamas has either not the inclination or the capability to stop the attacks. What exactly would you have Israel do?

You're right; the situation as it was prior to the current Palestinian offensive was intolerable by all Western notions. Palestinians were denied basic medical care and food; relief workers and international aid was being turned away weekly, if not daily, by occupying forces blocking all roads into the area. It is quite obvious that the Israeli government has either not the inclination or the capability to stop infants from dying daily. What exactly would you have Hamas do?

Eh, mind you, I'm not a big Palestinian fan - very far from it. The American (and Dutch, and British, and several other big countries) tradition of siding completely with Israel is just as ridiculously blind as the Belgian, French and Russian (and others) tradition of siding with Palestine in everything.
Both sides have done things that no self-respecting government or group should do. Peace treaties have been made and broken from both sides (with Rabin's murder as the sad highlight).
Claiming Israel "had to" invade and kill literally dozens of people in less than a week in retaliation for mortar and grenade attacks that killed less people than that in a year is pretty ridiculous. Just like it's nonsense that Hamas can't stop them if they really wanted to. Of course, Israel's been annexing so much land that there's hardly a square meter left in Palestinian land where you couldn't fire a rocket and hit Israel. But Israel's had to invade larger parts of Palestinian land to safeguard civilian centers. Which....etc etc.

There's no "good" side in this conflict, pure and simple. You can side with terrorists-slash-freedom-fighters or with oppressive-racist-dictatorship-slash-free-country-defending-its-civilians - you're still rooting for the wrong side either way.

Nov 19, 2012#18

TommiR

Bubble181 said:
You're right; the situation as it was prior to the current Palestinian offensive was intolerable by all Western notions. Palestinians were denied basic medical care and food; relief workers and international aid was being turned away weekly, if not daily, by occupying forces blocking all roads into the area. It is quite obvious that the Israeli government has either not the inclination or the capability to stop infants from dying daily. What exactly would you have Hamas do?

I suppose it depends on your definitions. But Israel has allowed humanitarian goods to enter Gaza through checkpoints.

Eh, mind you, I'm not a big Palestinian fan - very far from it. The American (and Dutch, and British, and several other big countries) tradition of siding completely with Israel is just as ridiculously blind as the Belgian, French and Russian (and others) tradition of siding with Palestine in everything.
Both sides have done things that no self-respecting government or group should do. Peace treaties have been made and broken from both sides (with Rabin's murder as the sad highlight).

Funny you should bring up Rabin. An Israeli PM who offered the palestinians about 90% of what they wanted in the Oslo accords, only to be turned down by Arafat and have his successors deal with the 'Second Intifada'. See Barak. Shows the good faith of the palestinians.

Claiming Israel "had to" invade and kill literally dozens of people in less than a week in retaliation for mortar and grenade attacks that killed less people than that in a year is pretty ridiculous. Just like it's nonsense that Hamas can't stop them if they really wanted to. Of course, Israel's been annexing so much land that there's hardly a square meter left in Palestinian land where you couldn't fire a rocket and hit Israel. But Israel's had to invade larger parts of Palestinian land to safeguard civilian centers. Which....etc etc.

Targetting palestinian militants in exchange for them targetting Israeli civilians is a different matter. Combatants are legal targets (with an acceptable degree of collateral damage), but Hamas targeted civilians from the get-go. I'm sure you see the difference.

Nov 19, 2012#19

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
Both sides have done things that no self-respecting government or group should do. Peace treaties have been made and broken from both sides (with Rabin's murder as the sad highlight).

As much stuff as the palestinians have done, they weren't responsible for killing Rabin. That was a radical Jew who didn't want to give the Palestinians anything.

Nov 19, 2012#20

Charlie Don't Surf

I admittedly do not understand much about all the nuances of this conflict or really have a side on this BUT I think it's a kind of important distinction that Hamas "rockets" are homemade, without any real destructive power, and never really hit or threaten anyone accurately by any stretch.

And Israel strikes blow up whole blocks and buildings and dozens of people.

Nov 19, 2012#21

Azurephoenix

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I admittedly do not understand much about all the nuances of this conflict or really have a side on this BUT I think it's a kind of important distinction that Hamas "rockets" are homemade, without any real destructive power, and never really hit or threaten anyone accurately by any stretch.

And Israel strikes blow up whole blocks and buildings and dozens of people.

Homemade does not mean not destructive. They do however lack guidance systems so they are pretty much dumbfire weapons. This does not mean one should underestimate the destructive capability of these weapons (on the flip side it would be very hard to effectively deploy such weapons against Israel).

Nov 19, 2012#22

sixpackshaker

The vast majority of the rockets used are Russian designed Kaytushas that are built in Iran and smuggled in through Egypt.

Kaytushas are one of the big reasons that the Soviets defeated the Nazis. They are quite deadly. Israel has a good warning and defense systems to cut down on civilian casualties. What casualties they do have they don't advertise on CNN for all the world to see, and to help Hamas aim more accurately.

Nov 19, 2012#23

Eriol

Also remember two things about this conflict and the situation in Gaza:

If you say that Israel is denying them power, medical supplies, etc (they're actually the only ones providing them in the first place, but hey), then what is Egypt denying them? Pretty much exactly the same things. Egypt has its own border with Gaza, so any and all of that could be provided by them. So any "blame" on Israel goes exactly as much to Egypt as well.
If Hamas/Palestine/Gaza/all the people in those territories put down all its weapons and said it would never invade Israel ever, there would be peace. Some type of negotiation would occur, and there would be a Palestinian state in the relatively near term. If Israel put down all its weapons and vowed non-violence forever, they would be invaded (from all sides, not just Palestinians), and all the "Jews" killed. And a lot of other people too.

#2 is why I'll never be on the "oppressed" side here until it changes. Make no mistake, officially it's "Israel" but in virtually every interview that's not "official communication" it's about killing the Jews. Not Israel, the Jews. They could have done NOTHING except put up a big wall and not provided anything, never gone in to those areas, or controlled the borders therein, never bombed ANYTHING and do nothing except sit there and exist and the situation would be virtually the same as it is today (you know, like before 1967-ish when those areas were conquered, and they were still attacked more than once after that). The people there would want to kill all the Jews on "their" land. And then be OK killing them all wherever else too.

And no, I'm not Jewish either. Hell, I have mostly Germanic descent! (with a lot of Danish thrown in too)

Nov 19, 2012#24

Charlie Don't Surf

Eriol said:
If Hamas/Palestine/Gaza/all the people in those territories put down all its weapons and said it would never invade Israel ever, there would be peace.

Hamas actually tried this once in 2008, even stopping rocket attacks from groups not associated with them and it lasted a few months before Israel leveled a building and killed 19 Palestinians.

Nov 19, 2012#25

JCM

Bubble181 said:
You're right; the situation as it was prior to the current Palestinian offensive was intolerable by all Western notions. Palestinians were denied basic medical care and food; relief workers and international aid was being turned away weekly, if not daily, by occupying forces blocking all roads into the area. It is quite obvious that the Israeli government has either not the inclination or the capability to stop infants from dying daily. What exactly would you have Hamas do?

Bingo.

Anyone who actually thinks Israel is in any way morally better than the Palestinians, deserves to have an army constantly destroying their city's powerlines, clisong off schools, destroying roads, building roadblocks and confiscating medicine, basically making their lives a living hell. Then I'd love to see if they wouldn't fight back.

Not that the Palestinians are any better, being nothing more than pawns of Arab states wanting to destabilize the region, but its funny how the Jews, after suffering in concentration camps, force others to live in almost similar conditions.[DOUBLEPOST=1353365372][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Hamas actually tried this once in 2008, even stopping rocket attacks from groups not associated with them and it lasted a few months before Israel leveled a building and killed 19 Palestinians.

Again, bingo.

Like I said, Israel needs the conflict to keep grabbing land.

Nov 19, 2012#26

Eriol

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Hamas actually tried this once in 2008, even stopping rocket attacks from groups not associated with them and it lasted a few months before Israel leveled a building and killed 19 Palestinians.

It's in Hamas' constitution for the destruction of Israel. If they were serious about it, it would have been changed first. Not "we'll stop killing you. Really. *wink*wink*" If they make a public declaration of non-violence without the change to their own constitution, I see it as a "pause to re-arm" and that's all. If they change their charter, then I might start believing it.

And as Gas posted above with the image, Hamas & company put as many civilians around their leaders as possible so there's as much collateral damage as possible. They literally use their own children as human shields. It's tragic when they die alongside the leaders, but I find it hard to blame Israel for the deaths.[DOUBLEPOST=1353366075][/DOUBLEPOST]

JCM said:
but its funny how the Jews, after suffering in concentration camps, force others to live in almost similar conditions.

This shows how you've obviously never read any books about the conditions in concentration camps. The only thing I've ever read that has been even close to equivalent was the conditions the Empire of Japan held various people in over their tenure. Even the Gulags (most of them at least) didn't compare.

Nov 19, 2012#27

GasBandit

The palestinians were given the opportunity to basically have everything they asked for and Arafat walked away from the table because it would take away his excuse to kill Jews. Sorry. It's just flat out plain that the only way there will be lasting peace there is either when Israel is annihilated, or the Palestinians are absorbed into the neighboring nations as they should have been decades ago. Or, you know, annihilated. I think the 2nd outcome is probably the least awful, but if you think the arab world, and especially the palestinians, will settle for anything other than the first unless the 3rd comes to pass is fooling themselves.

Nov 19, 2012#28

North_Ranger

Great, ran into the Godwin. Color me surprised.

Nov 19, 2012#29

Ravenpoe

North_Ranger said:
Great, ran into the Godwin. Color me surprised.

Nov 19, 2012#30

JCM

GasBandit said:
The palestinians were given the opportunity to basically have everything they asked for and Arafat walked away from the table because it would take away his excuse to kill Jews. Sorry. It's just flat out plain that the only way there will be lasting peace there is either when Israel is annihilated, or the Palestinians are absorbed into the neighboring nations as they should have been decades ago. Or, you know, annihilated. I think the 2nd outcome is probably the least awful, but if you think the arab world, and especially the palestinians, will settle for anything other than the first unless the 3rd comes to pass is fooling themselves.

Yeah, imagine if the US takes away 60% of Canadian soil, offers back less than 5% back, of course its the fault of the Canadians for walking away. Arafat went there knowing that if he accepted anything but the UN planned borders, he'd be killed. Literally.

Gas, most Palestinians live in slum-like living standards, with some relative dead shot by an Isreali and jihadi propaganda all day long telling them its EXCLUSIVELY fault of the Isrealis. If you were born there, you'd be screaming JIHAAAAD louder than most, and would be the one offering to kill Arafat.

Eriol said:
Also remember two things about this conflict and the situation in Gaza:

If you say that Israel is denying them power, medical supplies, etc (they're actually the only ones providing them in the first place, but hey), then what is Egypt denying them? Pretty much exactly the same things. Egypt has its own border with Gaza, so any and all of that could be provided by them. So any "blame" on Israel goes exactly as much to Egypt as well.

Where have you been after the Kissinger years? Egypt is an Israeli ally, while pretending not to like it.

Egypt lost in a war against Isreal. It does not want to start another, my siggestion is to read Kissinger's biography, which details every damn diplomatic move that led to this.

Anyway, like I said, the day some Islamic nation gets a nuke, Palestine will get blown up along with part of Isreal. Just do like me, avoid travelling to that part of the world and enjoy the fireworks of failed politics.

Nov 19, 2012#31

bhamv3

Israel's got nukes, right?

Nov 19, 2012#32

strawman

JCM said:
Like I said, Israel needs the conflict to keep grabbing land.

How accurate is that map? I see it's widely spread among anti-israeli sites, but I don't see a single use of it on what I would consider a reputable site.

Even wikipedia suggests the west bank is larger than the 2005 image depicted here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories

Nov 19, 2012#33

JCM

My apologies for that, just google imaged "post-67 Isreal borders", but even then with that map one can see the land grab.
But then if I were surrounded by people who wanted to kill me, I'd want as much stolen land to put on the bargaining table as possible.[DOUBLEPOST=1353378463][/DOUBLEPOST]But then zooming out your map, its pretty much like the one I posted, with just a little more green >_>

Nov 19, 2012#34

strawman

Well I certainly don't understand anything significant about the region, so I really can't say anyway. I know a few people who have studied the history thoroughly who say there really is no way to call it cleanly for either side. Eventually they will have to agree with each other, and stick to the agreement, or forever disagree. No outside force has ever been, or will likely ever be, able to make them both happy enough to do so themselves.

Nov 19, 2012#35

JCM

Eriol said:
And as Gas posted above with the image, Hamas & company put as many civilians around their leaders as possible so there's as much collateral damage as possible. They literally use their own children as human shields..

And Israel shoots down roads, stops human relief and takes out power around hospitals.

Cry me a river, Isreal is just as bad on the kids department, and do not oworry, there is another brainwashed equivalent of you on the Eatern side saying "I can't blame Hamas for their death"

Eriol said:
This shows how you've obviously never read any books about the conditions in concentration camps. The only thing I've ever read that has been even close to equivalent was the conditions the Empire of Japan held various people in over their tenure. Even the Gulags (most of them at least) didn't compare.

Really, is your knowledge of concentration camps limited to only Gulags and Nazis? Heck even the US, South Africa, etc had concentration camps under many names, here, let me help-

"The Random House Dictionary defines the term "concentration camp" as: "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc."

That's pretty much what Gaza is. And it shows you really do not read any first-hand accounts of life in Isreal, or know anything beyond what American media feeds you, or even met talked to any Palestinian... Compared to the first-world luxurious life most Isrealis have, guess you're fine with kids not having access to basic human rights or liberty to move about their own country, or having weapons pointed at them daily and having to sleep with random shots outside on the street.

There is a bigger chance of you dying from your chair breaking, than there is of an Isreali dying from a Palestinian attack. More than a hundred Palestinians die for every Isreali wounded, heck, more Palestinians die daily because of uninformed people like you supporting your government's Isreali policy than Isrealis die in this damn conflict. And just like Israel capitalizes on your opinions being formed by your media, the Palestinians are even worse off, being brainwashed by Arab media, which are basically the Arab version of Fox news, but with worse religious bigotry.

Nov 19, 2012#36

JCM

stienman said:
Well I certainly don't understand anything significant about the region, so I really can't say anyway. I know a few people who have studied the history thoroughly who say there really is no way to call it cleanly for either side. Eventually they will have to agree with each other, and stick to the agreement, or forever disagree. No outside force has ever been, or will likely ever be, able to make them both happy enough to do so themselves.

Ditto.

Nov 19, 2012#37

AshburnerX

bhamv3 said:
Israel's got nukes, right?

Officially, they refuse to state whether they do or don't. Unofficially, yes. They have something called the Sampson Option, which basically means they have enough nukes to make all their neighbors suffer if it ever looks like they'd be in a fight they'd lose. The Israelis remember the Holocaust and aren't willing to let it happen again.

It's one of the reasons why their neighbors haven't tried a massive offensive since the 60's: Israel would kick their ass, but even if they COULD win, Israel would nuke them before it got that far. It's sort of why everyone in the Middle East wants a nuke.

Nov 19, 2012#38

bhamv3

AshburnerX said:
Officially, they refuse to state whether they do or don't. Unofficially, yes. They have something called the Sampson Option, which basically means they have enough nukes to make all their neighbors suffer if it ever looks like they'd be in a fight they'd lose. The Israelis remember the Holocaust and aren't willing to let it happen again.

It's one of the reasons why their neighbors haven't tried a massive offensive since the 60's: Israel would kick their ass, but even if they COULD win, Israel would nuke them before it got that far. It's sort of why everyone in the Middle East wants a nuke.

So. Iran gets a nuke. They threaten to nuke Israel. Israel threatens to nuke them first, and everyone else around them, just in case. Neither side wants to be the one who fires nukes second.

Nukes fall, everyone dies.

That about right?

Nov 20, 2012#39

AshburnerX

bhamv3 said:
So. Iran gets a nuke. They threaten to nuke Israel. Israel threatens to nuke them first, and everyone else around them, just in case. Neither side wants to be the one who fires nukes second.

Nukes fall, everyone dies.

That about right?

Basically, except that Israel will never let it get that far. They'd rather risk a ground war than let Iran get a nuke, which is why they've been using missiles to blow the fuck out of Iran's development facilities, kidnapping/murdering it's scientists, and all kinds of other nasty shit. Their proactive approach is probably the best solution to the problem, currently. Iran's still going to going for a nuke but each setback buys Israel more time for a more realistic government to come into power.

This all goes out of the window once the US gets reliable missile defense technology. Japan, Israel and South Korea will get it the second we have it up and running because our entire international strategy depends on keeping those countries safe.

Nov 20, 2012#40

Eriol

JCM said:
And it shows you really do not read any first-hand accounts of life in Isreal, or know anything beyond what American media feeds you

It's amusing when people forget that I'm Canadian. You have any idea how anti-american most of the media in Canada is? Trust me, I get a lot more than "rah rah USA" stories up here.

JCM said:
There is a bigger chance of you dying from your chair breaking, than there is of an Isreali dying from a Palestinian attack.

There's also a lot bigger chance of dying on the road on the way to the airport than when you're in the plane, but how many people are afraid of flying? This statement of yours means nothing.

Basically my points above still stand. If Israel disarmed, there'd be a massacre. If the Palestinians did, there would be peace. Egypt has the ability to remedy every single humanitarian thing wrong in Gaza but do not, and get near-zero blame anywhere it. And my comment about "killing jews" was more accurate and timely than I thought it would be, as this is from the Globe and Mail in an article today quoting a police chief in Gaza: “We’ve got 10,000 men willing to sacrifice themselves to kill as many of the Jews as possible.”

Nov 20, 2012#41

SpecialKO

And Ariel Sharon's son thinks Israel should carpet-bomb Gaza.

There's not exactly a shortage of crazy on either side, here.

Nov 20, 2012#42

JCM

Amen.

Which makes it even sadder that some people help justify it, after all a few dead thousand Palestinian kids dead because of broken-down hospitals? No problem, fine with that. Now a homemade bomb wounds one Isreali? KILL ALL THE ARABS!!!

And then the West wonders how impressionable kids are brainwashed into flying planes into buildings and killing thousands? To them, thousands are killed monthly because of the US vetoing ANY UN decision on Isreal, and people like you saying "making people live in misery and terror while stealing land"? I'm okay with that!

Eriol said:
Basically my points above still stand. If Israel disarmed, there'd be a massacre.

My point still stands, if unicorns flew, they'd be killed by Pegasi (is that the plural of Pegasus?).

Its a bullshit imaginary point, because its about as real and proven as a unicorn. We saw Palestine put down its weapons in the past, and still get attacked. Your scenario? Still never happened, nor ever will, because the Palestinian would move back to occupied land, and Isreal would never allow that.... and with the US army around, we'd just see another South Korea.

If Palestinians put down their weapons? Isreal would just wait for some other Arab country to make an attack, and them strike Palestine saying they were looking for "agents of that country", like they did many times in the past.

Again, reality, not wishful opinion supporting killers. Both sides are arseholes, the only difference is that Isreal's media support brainwashes you on the West to support human right abuses, like Chinese and Arab media tells them that the US is pretty much an Isreali puppet or the Anti-Christ or something.

Nov 20, 2012#43

JCM

AshburnerX said:
This all goes out of the window once the US gets reliable missile defense technology. Japan, Israel and South Korea will get it the second we have it up and running because our entire international strategy depends on keeping those countries safe.

Funnily, bitch all we want about USA's political blunders around the world (Kissinger's Isreal support leading to the billions spent in the Palestine clusterfuck, like training the same guys who would later cause Sept 11, supporting dictators like the Arab Royal family, installing a puppet in Iran that led to the rise of the Ayatollah), world peace still rests on the shoulders of the USA, and is better off because of it.

I shudder to think what will happen when China overtakes the US in GNP and military might.

Nov 20, 2012#44

bhamv3

JCM said:
Funnily, bitch all we want about USA's political blunders around the world (Kissinger's Isreal support leading to the billions spent in the Palestine clusterfuck, like training the same guys who would later cause Sept 11, supporting dictators like the Arab Royal family, installing a puppet in Iran that led to the rise of the Ayatollah), world peace still rests on the shoulders of the USA, and is better off because of it.

I shudder to think what will happen when China overtakes the US in GNP and military might.

Well I'm planning on becoming a suicide bomber when that happens.

Nov 20, 2012#45

AshburnerX

JCM said:
I shudder to think what will happen when China overtakes the US in GNP and military might.

Your assuming they haven't ousted the Communists by then. When the commies are gone, there is a fair chance that China will basically resemble a less culturally diverse version of the US, except with arguably greater social unity. You know, like most East Asian first world countries?

Nov 20, 2012#46

strawman

Anonymous sides with Palestine in this case:

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2012/...tabases-leaks-emails-addresses-and-passwords/

Among the casualties are thousands of email addresses and passwords, hundreds of Israeli Web sites, government-owned as well as privately owned pages, as well as databases belonging to Bank Jerusalem and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Nov 20, 2012#47

Ravenpoe

I honestly don't think there's any way to resolve the conflict. It's impossible to get either side to stop attacking the other long enough to make any sort of peace. It's a no win scenario.

Nov 20, 2012#48

Espy

JCM said:
And Israel shoots down roads...

Holy hell they have flying roads in the middle east.

Nov 20, 2012#49

strawman

Ravenpoe said:
I honestly don't think there's any way to resolve the conflict. It's impossible to get either side to stop attacking the other long enough to make any sort of peace. It's a no win scenario.

It's possible to get all of the Israeli based attacks to stop by convincing their leadership to stop attacks.

It's impossible to get all the Palestine based attacks to stop without convincing all of Palestine to stop attacks. Palestine is still fractured, and those that control the weapons are unbridled. There is no unity, and that's why so few nations accept them as a state.

Nov 20, 2012#50

JCM

stienman said:
It's possible to get all of the Israeli based attacks to stop by convincing their leadership to stop attacks.

It's impossible to get all the Palestine based attacks to stop without convincing all of Palestine to stop attacks. Palestine is still fractured, and those that control the weapons are unbridled. There is no unity, and that's why so few nations accept them as a state.

This is actually wrong.

Its as possible to get all the Isreali based attacks to stop as it is to get all US army bases away from other countries. The ultra-orthodox Jews and the Hawks in the government are about as powerful as the Republicans in the US. It will never stop.[DOUBLEPOST=1353428561][/DOUBLEPOST]

AshburnerX said:
Your assuming they haven't ousted the Communists by then. When the commies are gone, there is a fair chance that China will basically resemble a less culturally diverse version of the US, except with arguably greater social unity. You know, like most East Asian first world countries?

True, taht could be a best case scenario.

Nov 20, 2012#51

TommiR

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Hamas actually tried this once in 2008, even stopping rocket attacks from groups not associated with them and it lasted a few months before Israel leveled a building and killed 19 Palestinians.

One of the main difficulties is that there is no central leadership amongst the palestinians with whom to negotiate, and who are in a position to deliver. The 2008 ceasefire you are referring to did not succeed in completely stopping the rocket attacks. Hamas did arrest a handful of people, but they were all let go without charges being pressed. And I was under the impression that 19 was the total amount of palestinian dead (3 civilians, 16 militants) during the ceasefire.

To me, that is simply more evidence indicating that you can make whatever deals with the palestinians, but they are unlikely to work. Israel has experienced this several times.

Human Rights Watch said:
We recognize that until last week Hamas took efforts to halt rocket attacks by other groups as part of the June 19 ceasefire. However, throughout the ceasefire period other armed groups have continued to intermittently fire rockets from Gaza. As the governing authority in the Gaza Strip, it is your responsibility under international law to prevent such attacks, and to arrest and prosecute those who carry them out.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/11/20/letter-hamas-stop-rocket-attacks

JCM said:
Anyone who actually thinks Israel is in any way morally better than the Palestinians, deserves to have an army constantly destroying their city's powerlines, clisong off schools, destroying roads, building roadblocks and confiscating medicine, basically making their lives a living hell. Then I'd love to see if they wouldn't fight back.

And the Palestinians fight back by firing deliberately at civilian population centers, and position their rockets next to schools, hospitals, and residential complexes so that, should the other guy respond, they carry a large risk of causing collateral damage. Which gives you opportunities of taking some nice pictures and spreading them around the world, to show everyone how the other guy is mean and evil.

To me, there are few if any acceptable reasons for such actions, which is why I have a hard time sympathising with Hamas, al-Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, or any others who partake in such. It's almost as if they don't really care about the fate of their own civilians.

JCM said:
Where have you been after the Kissinger years? Egypt is an Israeli ally, while pretending not to like it.

Egypt lost in a war against Isreal. It does not want to start another, my siggestion is to read Kissinger's biography, which details every damn diplomatic move that led to this.

That was more true during the Mubarak era, who continued the pro-Israeli foreign policy of Sadat (who, btw, was assassinated by muslim extremists). It is somewhat less true after Mubarak's overthrow, and the street in Egypt is very anti-Israel, though most of them admit that Egypt is currently not able to fight a conflict against anyone. In the Sinai peninsula the local bedouins are a force to be reckoned with, and are smuggling weapons, narcotics, jihadists, as well as some more benign stuff into Gaza and Israel. Egypt hasn't been extremely successful in re-establishing central control of the Sinai, and several border incidents have left strains on Egyptian-Israeli relations.

Things may have changed a bit since the Kissinger years.

Nov 20, 2012#52

strawman

Well, at least it gets Clinton's mind off the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_the_U.S._diplomatic_mission_in_Benghazi issue. She'd rather walk into the middle of the firefight than deal with the nosy american public.

Nov 20, 2012#53

JCM

Good catch there... I'd love to see what the new Egyptian government would do in the middle of the clusterfuck if war starts.[DOUBLEPOST=1353438208][/DOUBLEPOST]And yeah, things are more organized on the Isreali side. Kinda their fault, when you do not permit people to form their own country, you end up with the horror of fanaticism and manipulation that is Palestinian politics.

Nov 20, 2012#54

blotsfan

Heres a question, why do the Palestinians need their own country? If they were to just be part of Israel they would have full and equal rights as any Jewish citizen. They could vote and run in elections (there is an Arab party that has seats in the Israeli Parliament). I get that Hamas wants to maintain power but for the average Palestinian citizen, having Israel control the entire land would be a good thing.

I understand that Israel is not 100% blameless for this situation and has handled some things very poorly, but I just think living in a democracy with rights would be a lot better than trying to be independent with a brutal dictatorship.

Nov 20, 2012#55

SpecialKO

Most Jewish Israeli voters are against the one-state solution because were all the Palestinian refugees to return and Palestinian birthrates continue, Israel would be Palestinian-majority fairly quickly, and Jewish Israelis would be forced into second-class citizenship. That, plus the fact that for many Israelis (and Jews in general) Israel is intended to be the official Jewish theocratic homeland.

Most Palestinian Arabs are allegedly supportive of a one-state solution, particular those living in Israeli who want to maintain their Israeli citizenship. That's not to say that they're not also supportive of two-state, but two-state is losing a lot of ground, and quite a few folks think one-state is inevitable and already where the whole situation is sliding into. The reason why a lot of people want to sit down and make it official is because the kind of one-state solution Israel is sliding into now is South Africa.

Nov 20, 2012#56

JCM

blotsfan said:
Heres a question, why do the Palestinians need their own country? If they were to just be part of Israel they would have full and equal rights as any Jewish citizen. They could vote and run in elections (there is an Arab party that has seats in the Israeli Parliament). I get that Hamas wants to maintain power but for the average Palestinian citizen, having Israel control the entire land would be a good thing.

Because
a) about 200 thousand of them were already there in Palestine, a British territory, were kicked out to make space for Israel. They have as much right to exist as Isreal does, but then the Arabs flooded the area with refugees and that makes it hard.
b) Israel will not give them Isreali citizenship nor equal rights. Imagine the native Americans a hundred or two years back, in concentration camps, being treated with contempt and being collectively punished.
c) today's Palestinian majority was raised in terrible conditions, being taught since young that Isreal and its backer, the US, was responsible for their condition, and live in fear and humiliation. Doubt they'd volunteer to be Isreali instead of being Palestinian.

Add the following line to the last caption "and arab propaganda", and you've got the majority of Palestinians and their mindset.

Like most sane people here have been saying, it's a double-sided fuck up.

-Israel wanted to steal more land and fucked itself up,
-Palestine wanted its right and got fucked up,
-US spent trillions on this fuck up,
-Israeli sympathizers who couldn't give a shit about thing like how Palestine's high infant mortality rate due to its lack of infrastructure and medicine, helped this fuck up
-and the only ones gaining from this are the Arab terrorist organizations that get fresh teenagers willing to blow themselves up.

For generations diplomats can use the creation of Isreal, the Egypt-Isreal War and the post-war Isreali rights abuses as the worst handling of foreign policy by the West (we are looking at you Britain, too).[DOUBLEPOST=1353470347][/DOUBLEPOST]

SpecialKO said:
The reason why a lot of people want to sit down and make it official is because the kind of one-state solution Israel is sliding into now is South Africa.

The current conflict is actually better for Israel than to start some Arab version of apartheid. They can still get away with land grabs and depriving Palestinians of basic rights with the "terrorist" excuse, even when there isn't any attack, and US will veto anything anyone tries to do to stop it, with some loss in reputation and respect and some terrorist attacks on the side.

But if they start segregating its own citizens, I doubt that the American public would continue supporting the US veto, it would be a total PR disaster for both Isreal and the US.

Nov 20, 2012#57

Terrik

Now they're dragging "Collaborators" through the streets on motorcycles. Good lord.

Nov 20, 2012#58

JCM

Go home Palestine and Isreal, you are drunk.

Nov 21, 2012#59

GasBandit

I said it a'fore, and I'll say it a'gin.

GasBandit said:
It's just flat out plain that the only way there will be lasting peace there is either when Israel is annihilated, or the Palestinians are absorbed into the neighboring nations as they should have been decades ago, or are themselves annihilated.

This is so very, very far past the point of possible compromise that it's almost irrelevant how it got there. It only matters which side winning would be in our best interest.

Nov 21, 2012#60

Silent Bob

Is it wrong that I just wish both states would annihilate each other so this could end?

Nov 21, 2012#61

TommiR

GasBandit said:
This is so very, very far past the point of possible compromise that it's almost irrelevant how it got there. It only matters which side winning would be in our best interest.

Somewhat depending on which school of thought you subscribe to... yeah, something to that effect is pretty much the basis of any nation's foreign policy. What are the advantages and drawbacks of various outcomes, and what does it take to reach them.

It's also the main reason why I personally tend to be highly sceptical when I hear the leaders of Great Powers framing their foreign policy initiatives in moral rhetoric. They do what is in their own interests, with the rest being perception management. Which is all fine and good if your own interests lie along similar lines, but I tend to kind of snort derisively when any single nation is trumpeted as a 'force for good in the world'.

Silent Bob said:
Is it wrong that I just wish both states would annihilate each other so this could end?

Not necessarily, in my opinion. It's good to keep an open mind when examining scenarios, even if doing so occasionally leads one down morally ambiguous paths. But it seems to me that you are wishing for the highly unlikely. Purposeful action requires both intent and capability, and the Palestinians are short on the capabilities required for such an undertaking. Israel wiping out the palestinians is militarily possible, though.

From the viewpoint of a theoretical thought exercise, I suppose the benefit of what you wish for is directly related to how much the situation afterwards is in your favor. Mutual destruction would stop the fighting between the Pals and the Israelis, but what would happen then? The removal of Israel from the picture would cause a significant change in the balance of power in the region, which usually tends to result in instability until a new equilibrium (of whatever form) comes about. How likely is it that what follows is preferable to the current situation?

Nov 21, 2012#62

blotsfan

If Israel went away, things would just get a lot worse in the area. As of right now, Israel is sort of the punching bag all the arab countries focus their hate on. If Israel were to go away, it would expose the fact that all of the arab countries hate each other.

Nov 21, 2012#63

Eriol

blotsfan said:
If Israel went away, things would just get a lot worse in the area. As of right now, Israel is sort of the punching bag all the arab countries focus their hate on. If Israel were to go away, it would expose the fact that all of the arab countries hate each other.

Because this thread has already been Godwin'd, I don't feel bad about posting what thought this stimulated: Israel is to the Middle east what Nazi Germany was to WWII in that it makes allies of people who utterly hate each other (Soviets & the West compare to the other Middle eastern nations).

Nov 21, 2012#64

blotsfan

Israel and Gaza agree to ceasefire.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/Israel-and-Hamas-agree-to-Gaza-cease-fire-4055588.php

Hopefully both sides are actually committed to keeping it.

Nov 21, 2012#65

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
Hopefully both sides are actually committed to keeping it.

Nov 21, 2012#66

blotsfan

Yeah, that was fast.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ael-rocketsbre8ak1b3-20121121,0,2663908.story

Nov 21, 2012#67

JCM

Eriol said:
Because this thread has already been Godwin'd, I don't feel bad about posting what thought this stimulated: Israel is to the Middle east what Nazi Germany was to WWII in that it makes allies of people who utterly hate each other (Soviets & the West compare to the other Middle eastern nations).

Exactly. Just like Nazi Germany kept the Americans and Russians from going at each other, Israel is the only reason we aren't seeing a Shiite and Sunni grudge match (which is technically the ancient Persian vs Arab war, under a new name).

Nov 22, 2012#68

strawman

Pakistan getting lost in the weeds:

http://dawn.com/2012/11/21/pakistanis-lost-without-maps/

Nov 22, 2012#69

Hailey Knight

Nov 22, 2012#70

bhamv3

stienman said:
Pakistan getting lost in the weeds:

http://dawn.com/2012/11/21/pakistanis-lost-without-maps/

What the fuck? How is civilian mapping a national security threat?

Nov 22, 2012#71

AshburnerX

bhamv3 said:
What the fuck? How is civilian mapping a national security threat?

They are pulling a national security card and don't want civilians publishing data about military installations or other sensitive things. Basically, they don't want people to know where their military bases are and are worried people will use the maps to plan attacks.

This is stupid because of Google Earth.

Nov 23, 2012#72

JCM

bhamv3 said:
What the fuck? How is civilian mapping a national security threat?

Haven't you seen Apple Maps?

Nov 23, 2012#73

bhamv3

JCM said:
Haven't you seen Apple Maps?

Yeah, but the federal government didn't go "Y'know what, Apple Maps sucks, we're gonna do it ourselves now. Someone get me the Secretary of Cartography!"

Nov 23, 2012#74

strawman

JCM said:
Haven't you seen Apple Maps?

According to my iPhone 5, I'm in Pakistan right now!

So it's not so bad. As long as you live in Michigan Pakistan they don't seem to bother you about mapping activities.

But just in case I'm stocking up on gas station maps.

Nov 23, 2012#75

Eriol

bhamv3 said:
What the fuck? How is civilian mapping a national security threat?

The first thing I thought of was actually embarrassment. They're using the "military secrets" excuse, but given some of the other context of the article, I'll be it's actually to stop NGOs from finding out just how bad life is for the average Pakistani citizen. That the government has been lying their asses off on the poverty rates, disease rates, unemployment, or even so far as arable (and worked) land percentages to make themselves look better than they actually are. Mapping is a huge part of that.

Military secrets? A simple request to the major players and it's blurred out, or just omitted. But things that embarrass them? Much much harder to conceal.

Nov 23, 2012#76

strawman

They specifically talk about GIS - geographical information systems - which are primarily used in the industry to map infrastructure. Sewers, power lines, water lines, etc.

It can be a matter of significant national security especially if you are trying to maintain those things.

One thing to keep in mind is that they may not necessarily be trying to prevent people from mapping - they may simply be trying to avoid paying companies to map things for them, and instead claim that information and knowledge for their own use. "Yes, you can map the things you want to, but only if you give us a copy as well."

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