I have no hope - Death preoccupies me

[Chad Sexington]

Let me head this off: no, I am not suicidal - I have been, I probably will be again some day, but I am not at this time.

If you can't handle talk about suicide, or if you don't want to read depressing/whining things, I should recommend that you stop reading here. This whole little babbling piece is quite focussed on death and its inevitability - and my cold terror of meaninglessness. Just... so you know.

Also this is rhetorical: I realise the questions I ask often have no answers, and no answers to any questions herein are expected/wanted - though feel free to chime if you like. I need to get a little of this out of my system, though it's hardly all of it, nor is it even complete or explained to my satisfaction. But my head is overflowing, and I need to let some out, I guess.

I see no purpose in doing anything. I realise this seems like a childish point of view, that I don't want to do anything because in the end I'll be dead. But I cannot escape that truth.

And indeed, others counter with "What about the people you love? Who love you? What about those you affect after you're dead, maybe by having written something or caused someone to pass on some bit of knowledge..." but the point, I guess, the larger point that I cannot flee from is that it isn't just me that will die, but them to, and those who benefit from them, and one day, there will be nothing.

Life is a lot of irritation, stress, pain, sadness, regret, frustration, impotence, anger, misery... With moments, too, of joy, awe, laughter, contentment. And I don't know which happens more frequently, nor which is more weighty. I suspect, but I have no clear mind to give rational expression to this, that there are more and weightier painful moments in life.

Regardless of the reality, I certainly suffer the negative side of life more acutely and for longer than I enjoy the positive side of it.

I cannot see to fix this: I haven't known anyone to understand precisely what I mean or feel, and I'm also not sure I would want someone to feel this way: it's horrifying.

The conclusion I come to, time and again is that if I am unhappy, and cannot see good reason to exerting effort to becoming happy, then suicide is simply the obvious choice. They say it is not a solution, but to this problem, it is the only solution. As I said, I am not suicidal, though there's a morbid itch in my mind that believes I would happily welcome a fatal accident while walking home or a sudden burst of an embolism in my brain.

I have no hope. Even if life gets better -and what would that mean?- it will not matter. No one will matter. The end of the universe is inevitable, so what's the meaning of my enjoyment? Even if I could, in the next second, start having a crazy perfect and fun life of my dreams, that enjoyment ceases. And since that is not possible, then why not simply stop the suffering and enjoyment altogether? Particularly since I suffer far more than I enjoy?

This is, as I said, not something I think is answerable, I don't mean to pose these questions to any of you. Should you feel like saying something, endeavouring to answer a question, or just talk, I welcome insight, opinion, criticism of my weltanschauung, etc.

 

[Celt Z]

I'm afraid I don't have any answers to give. I have very little experience with depression, and it's from a few friends that have been diagnosed with it. But I think everyone wonders about what they're doing with their lives when we all reach the same conclusion eventually. If I had to think about it, for me, it's about the "journey" as opposed to the "destination". Personally, there are little things I find so much joy in, like a warm summer sunset or my son's laughter, that make me want to extend my life as long as possible. But what motivates me isn't going to work for everyone. I can only hope you can find a way to let the moments of joy become more important to you than the lingering painful ones. I wish I had a sure-fire way for you and anyone else feeling hopeless to find that path.

I'd also like to add that I'm hoping you'll stick around for a while. You are one of the many warm, wonderful people on Halforum that finally drew me out of my longtime lurking and made me want to become an active part of this forum.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

We are all stardust.

 

[Cajungal]

I don't have anything helpful to say except that I sympathize. I had a lot of those thoughts for a couple of years, and it was agonizing. Not sure what changed, but I just don't feel that way anymore. My beliefs about what happens after we die haven't changed. The best way I can describe how I feel now is that I don't care if nothing really matters. It's still nice to live, love, and chase good feelings when I can. And it kind of takes some pressure off I guess.

 

[MindDetective]

I think you asked us once before how we found purpose. I gave my answer in that thread and I'm too lazy to find it again. I think you should go reread all of our answers, though. (Link it here if you find it!)

But whatever we each said in that thread, none of them will be the kind of thing that you can just read and then nod your head and say, "yeah, that makes sense. I think I will think that way from now on." You have to endeavor to live the belief system for a good long while and give it a chance to soak all the way into your bones. If you don't see purpose now, then marinate in something new until you do. Or if you don't, try the next one. If none of them work, you'll have a hell of a book to write.

The underlying philosophy here is that behavior begets emotional and psychological change. Mindfulness and emotional awareness are fine, but they are not powerful agents of change. Change primarily comes from doing. Maybe quitting your job or moving to Uzbekistan or mentoring a kid ends up being a bad idea, or results in no change at all(to your sense of purpose or emotional well-being) but each of those things is a transient change. You can almost always try something else and keep trying until something sticks. Shake things up. Change yourself by changing what you do.

 

[Mathias]

Buddy, don't you see the fact that you'll be dead at some point gives you absolute freedom?! I've been down your road. Embrace the utter absurdity of yours and everyone's existence, and use that to fuel your own destiny. Purpose is subjective, but bear with me a moment. Think about the sheer odds of your existence. The start of the universe was 13.7 billion years ago, right? The odds of just tiny fluctuations of heat resulting in cold spots that end up being galaxies are astronomical. Those galaxies forming solar systems, stars being born and going supernova to in 9 billion years create the stuff that's going to make up Earth - that's you, me, birds, rocks, water, everything! Now think of the odds of life coming to existence, and the slow gradual process of evolution resulting in generation after countless generation of microbe, then transition animal after transition animal to result in mammals and likewise for primates. Think of the odds of your ancestors' survival, how many generations of humans it took to end up with you! Now think of the billions of other people today that share existence with you! You are both insignificant and extremely significant all at once! You are the universe experiencing itself.

Think long and hard about what it felt like before you were born. Oblivion. Nothing. Right? For billions of years this is how it went on, without you even knowing it. Don't worry about death. It's inevitable, and you won't give a rip about it once you're gone. It'll be just like before you were born. Enjoy the gift of existence with this in mind and go make your own purpose. Be the master of your destiny.

You're not the first person to feel this way. You're not the last. I'm an avid student of Nietzsche and Proust for this reason. People say Philosophy is a wasted art, I say it's one of the keys to understanding and making meaning out of life.

 

[phil]

I largely feel the same way but to an opposite effect. Life is meaningless and over in the blink of an eye and full of hardships and so on. But couldn't that also mean that life gets to be exactly what I want it to be? Doesn't that mean that the pressure is kind of off? If I'm not going to be the guy who cures cancer or reverses aging or is batman, than it kinda doesn't matter to what extent I generally fuck up.

I've started thinking of life as less what do I want to do with it and more what do I want out of it. I want to own a home. I want to feel that freedom of having something that it, largly, mine. So now I'm taking steps to get that thing out of life.

In closing, here's a skeletor is love because I'm on a kick of that right now

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I'm in a similar boat. In a lot of ways, I feel like I've given up, that I'll never find a stable career or relationship. And I've recently moved back in with my parents.

But at the same, I don't want to just kill myself. That just feels like letting Depression win. Fuck that guy. I'm trying to get help now, including seeing a new doctor that I rather like, who already scheduled blood work and seems to honestly give a crap. Which I've rarely experienced. So I'm getting the help.

I assume you are getting help, too, right? And if it's not working, have you considered changing doctors/counsellors?

 

[Mathias]

I'm in a similar boat. In a lot of ways, I feel like I've given up, that I'll never find a stable career or relationship. And I've recently moved back in with my parents.

But at the same, I don't want to just kill myself. That just feels like letting Depression win. Fuck that guy. I'm trying to get help now, including seeing a new doctor that I rather like, who already scheduled blood work and seems to honestly give a crap. Which I've rarely experienced. So I'm getting the help.

I assume you are getting help, too, right? And if it's not working, have you considered changing doctors/counsellors?

You know, I'll get all sappy, but I love Tom Hanks' speech at the end of Castaway.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Besides, I can't kill myself yet. I'll miss the eventual ending to Order of the Stick!

 

[phil]

And game of thrones!

And that spiderman thing from the other thread!

 

[blotsfan]

 

[WasabiPoptart]

Do something completely out of your normal routine just because. Maybe volunteer to help teach kids to read or tutor them in writing. Take a class in French cooking or photography. Go on a spontaneous vacation in your own town and see the sites. Learn to play the lute. Eat a really good piece of chocolate while sitting in the middle of a grassy park on the first warm spring day, close your eyes, and just be.

To me, the purpose of life is to absorb as much information as possible about everything around me. To be fully present in the experience of living. I enjoy learning new languages (although I am barely passable in anything other than English and some days my English is questionable). Scientific discoveries make my brain buzz with excitement. I'm terrible at drawing, but I have a painting on my living room wall that I did last year because I wanted the experience of putting something on a canvas. Id like to make another one. In my house I have totally changed Thanksgiving into a celebration of different cultures rather than the same old turkey, stuffing, cranberry sauce, etc. Why? It's an opportunity for me to expand my cooking repertoire and my kids learn something new. I see life as being an empty container that I need to fill. Who cares if it's meaningless when I die. It meant something to me while I was doing it.

My attempt at painting!

 

[Chad Sexington]

We are all stardust.

I do not understand how this motivates one to live.

I think you asked us once before how we found purpose. I gave my answer in that thread and I'm too lazy to find it again. I think you should go reread all of our answers, though. (Link it here if you find it!)

But whatever we each said in that thread, none of them will be the kind of thing that you can just read and then nod your head and say, "yeah, that makes sense. I think I will think that way from now on." You have to endeavor to live the belief system for a good long while and give it a chance to soak all the way into your bones. If you don't see purpose now, then marinate in something new until you do. Or if you don't, try the next one. If none of them work, you'll have a hell of a book to write.

The underlying philosophy here is that behavior begets emotional and psychological change. Mindfulness and emotional awareness are fine, but they are not powerful agents of change. Change primarily comes from doing. Maybe quitting your job or moving to Uzbekistan or mentoring a kid ends up being a bad idea, or results in no change at all(to your sense of purpose or emotional well-being) but each of those things is a transient change. You can almost always try something else and keep trying until something sticks. Shake things up. Change yourself by changing what you do.

I have, it's true. I'd link it per your request but at the moment do not feel the desire to do so.

Your advice reminds me of some of the best advice/information I've ever read, "Who you are is what you do." This is, experientially, true, but perhaps disappointing, as it is not a reason to do, or, that is, to be anything, it is just a way of changing the already-true fact of my existence. I don't necessarily want change, I want, childishly, to stop hurting, and no one has a life free of that, so why try?

Buddy, don't you see the fact that you'll be dead at some point gives you absolute freedom?! I've been down your road. Embrace the utter absurdity of yours and everyone's existence, and use that to fuel your own destiny. Purpose is subjective, but bear with me a moment. Think about the sheer odds of your existence. The start of the universe was 13.7 billion years ago, right? The odds of just tiny fluctuations of heat resulting in cold spots that end up being galaxies are astronomical. Those galaxies forming solar systems, stars being born and going supernova to in 9 billion years create the stuff that's going to make up Earth - that's you, me, birds, rocks, water, everything! Now think of the odds of life coming to existence, and the slow gradual process of evolution resulting in generation after countless generation of microbe, then transition animal after transition animal to result in mammals and likewise for primates. Think of the odds of your ancestors' survival, how many generations of humans it took to end up with you! Now think of the billions of other people today that share existence with you! You are both insignificant and extremely significant all at once! You are the universe experiencing itself.

Think long and hard about what it felt like before you were born. Oblivion. Nothing. Right? For billions of years this is how it went on, without you even knowing it. Don't worry about death. It's inevitable, and you won't give a rip about it once you're gone. It'll be just like before you were born. Enjoy the gift of existence with this in mind and go make your own purpose. Be the master of your destiny.

You're not the first person to feel this way. You're not the last. I'm an avid student of Nietzsche and Proust for this reason. People say Philosophy is a wasted art, I say it's one of the keys to understanding and making meaning out of life.

I concur that philosophy is not wasted; but I rather have come to loathe Nietzsche -I have read little Proust- as the suggestion that one can make meaning is inherently useless if the broader context of existence is without meaning.

You ask if I do not see the fact of death as a freedom: no, I do not. I mean, I do, rationally, but the fact is, the stuff I might incidentally want is not accessible to me in absolute terms. True, I will die, and life is empty of meaning, so taking candy from a baby if I have a craving for sweets is okay but I will be punished, and besides that, I actually see it as a bad thing to do. Likewise, I could see my way to giving a few people in my life a good fist-to-the-face but I believe that no matter what satisfaction or sense of justification that may bring me... I will not have done anything good- though my perception of life ought to technically allow for no such sense of 'good' beyond that which satisfies or justifies me!

I ramble, I realise...

The small odds of my existence are not without my comprehension - well, relatively; I probably cannot actually conceive of all of the multifaceted variables which resulted in the me that is here, now, typing - but since I value my existence so little, and know it to be so useless, I feel like if I am unwilling to be the hedonistic psychopath I sometimes wish I were, and I am unwilling to embrace meaningfulness that cannot be absolutely demonstrated to me... I am only wasting my own time, and the lives of everyone else.

Do something completely out of your normal routine just because. Maybe volunteer to help teach kids to read or tutor them in writing. Take a class in French cooking or photography. Go on a spontaneous vacation in your own town and see the sites. Learn to play the lute. Eat a really good piece of chocolate while sitting in the middle of a grassy park on the first warm spring day, close your eyes, and just be.

To me, the purpose of life is to absorb as much information as possible about everything around me. To be fully present in the experience of living. I enjoy learning new languages (although I am barely passable in anything other than English and some days my English is questionable). Scientific discoveries make my brain buzz with excitement. I'm terrible at drawing, but I have a painting on my living room wall that I did last year because I wanted the experience of putting something on a canvas. Id like to make another one. In my house I have totally changed Thanksgiving into a celebration of different cultures rather than the same old turkey, stuffing, cranberry sauce, etc. Why? It's an opportunity for me to expand my cooking repertoire and my kids learn something new. I see life as being an empty container that I need to fill. Who cares if it's meaningless when I die. It meant something to me while I was doing it.

My attempt at painting!
View attachment 14276

You're a wonderful person. I sympathise with you more than you know: I absorb information and love to try things though I might fail miserably, and even to share those things.

But it's that last sentence that scars me.

"It meant something to me while I was doing it." This is not a reality I know. It doesn't mean anything because I can never not follow it to the ... inexorable end...

 

[MindDetective]

I do not understand how this motivates one to live.

I have, it's true. I'd link it per your request but at the moment do not feel the desire to do so.

Your advice reminds me of some of the best advice/information I've ever read, "Who you are is what you do." This is, experientially, true, but perhaps disappointing, as it is not a reason to do, or, that is, to be anything, it is just a way of changing the already-true fact of my existence. I don't necessarily want change, I want, childishly, to stop hurting, and no one has a life free of that, so why try?

I concur that philosophy is not wasted; but I rather have come to loathe Nietzsche -I have read little Proust- as the suggestion that one can make meaning is inherently useless if the broader context of existence is without meaning.

You ask if I do not see the fact of death as a freedom: no, I do not. I mean, I do, rationally, but the fact is, the stuff I might incidentally want is not accessible to me in absolute terms. True, I will die, and life is empty of meaning, so taking candy from a baby if I have a craving for sweets is okay but I will be punished, and besides that, I actually see it as a bad thing to do. Likewise, I could see my way to giving a few people in my life a good fist-to-the-face but I believe that no matter what satisfaction or sense of justification that may bring me... I will not have done anything good- though my perception of life ought to technically allow for no such sense of 'good' beyond that which satisfies or justifies me!

I ramble, I realise...

The small odds of my existence are not without my comprehension - well, relatively; I probably cannot actually conceive of all of the multifaceted variables which resulted in the me that is here, now, typing - but since I value my existence so little, and know it to be so useless, I feel like if I am unwilling to be the hedonistic psychopath I sometimes wish I were, and I am unwilling to embrace meaningfulness that cannot be absolutely demonstrated to me... I am only wasting my own time, and the lives of everyone else.

You're a wonderful person. I sympathise with you more than you know: I absorb information and love to try things though I might fail miserably, and even to share those things.

But it's that last sentence that scars me.

"It meant something to me while I was doing it." This is not a reality I know. It doesn't mean anything because I can never not follow it to the ... inexorable end...

Sorry for the quoting of your whole post and the pithy reply. Both are due to replying from a tablet. You want the hurting to stop but you don't necessarily want change. These two ideas are incompatible. Change is required for your desired outcome. Change IS your desired outcome.

 

[Chad Sexington]

Sorry for the quoting of your whole post and the pithy reply. Both are due to replying from a tablet. You want the hurting to stop but you don't necessarily want change. These two ideas are incompatible. Change is required for your desired outcome. Change IS your desired outcome.

Well, no...

There is not a person alive who experiences no pain/suffering/challenge

As I say, I childishly want there to be no pain

 

[Bones]

@Chad Sexington, my brother in nihilism, life is a shit storm, nothing you do matters in the big universal picture. So here is what I suggest to you, come with me...and you'll be...in a world of pure imagination!

Take a look....and you'll see into your imagination! We'll begin with a spin, trav'ling in the world of my creation, what we'll see will defy all explanation!

If you want to view paradise, simply look around and view it, anything you want to, do it, want to change the world? There's nothing to it...

There is no life I know, to compare with pure imagination, living there, you'll be free, if you truly wish to be...

 

[MindDetective]

Well, no...

There is not a person alive who experiences no pain/suffering/challenge

As I say, I childishly want there to be no pain

Pardon my intellectual approach to what must be a deeply personal and difficult state to be in. Wishful thinking aside, I guess I want to challenge you to reconsider the notion that your excuse that life has no meaning is a cause for your despair. It seems more the afterthought, the symptom of despair. The thought may be despairing but I suspect it bubbles up from your despair, which stems from other things. Because that is a conscious thought it is easier to grab onto and point your finger at. So when I suggest attempting change (I know, it is no easy feat) I don't view "it is all so pointless" as a valid argument, because the appearance of pointlessness is a result of your condition. Our perception is shaped by our frame of mind. Your challenge is in altering your frame of mind and as a result, your perception.

 

[WasabiPoptart]

I don't know what kind of therapy you are doing, if any. You might want to explore Albert Ellis's writings. Like this one: Feeling Better, Getting Better, Staying Better: Profound Self-Help Therapy For Your Emotions
It could help.

 

[jwhouk]

The biggest challenge with Ellis' therapeutic process is the recognition that some belief that's being clung to isn't true. The process is becoming aware that it's true - and then living in response.

"There is always hope" is a really difficult faulty belief to rid yourself of. Sometimes you have to go beyond it - to your religion or faith.

 

[Bones]

The biggest challenge with Ellis' therapeutic process is the recognition that some belief that's being clung to isn't true. The process is becoming aware that it's true - and then living in response.

"There is always hope" is a really difficult faulty belief to rid yourself of. Sometimes you have to go beyond it - to your religion or faith.

I don't know man, I have no faith, have "severe depression", and I found ultimate solace in a cocktail of medications. I freely admit my life has no large meaning, that I have had no effect on anyone, and most people would not even miss me if I dropped dead.

but what got me through it all was realizing I define my own existence in any way I want. That because my life has no meaning or any real usefulness I have no standard to meet, no one likes me anyway so I don't have to impress anyone, women are repulsed by me so I don't have to meet any life goals other than being self-sufficient. so, with all that set in stone I define it by watching stupid cartoons and being a man-child while not at work.