Export thread

As you can read for yourself in the story here, the latest round of tests show that high school seniors are doing no better in math or English than they were 4 years ago, and barely any improvement over the last ~20 years. Only about 25% of seniors are proficient in math, while roughly 40% are proficient in reading. This despite the fact that graduation rates are actually up. This study includes public and private schools. The study also showed that there is still a huge gap in the performance of white and Asian students compared to black and Latino students.


My question is this: what do you see as the problem? Are teachers the problem, as some suggested? Is the Department of Education to blame? Racism inherent in our society? Is something wrong with the current generation of kids? The current generation of parents?

I'm certainly not an expert in the field, but I would say it is societal. Many people, parents as well as students, just don't see education as a priority. When I was in highschool, those who played football were much more rewarded, by the school and the town, than those who did well academically. I know at least two of those football players graduated without even knowing how to read. Seriously... they couldn't read, at all.

Obviously the real problem is that...


Yes! We must lower our standards! Otherwise the numbers will not improve!
Oh, wait. We did that already.

--Patrick
(Personally, I believe it's a case of the students seeing no incentive/value to learning these things, and so their priorities get reassigned elsewhere)

Tress said:

As you can read for yourself in the story here, the latest round of tests show that high school seniors are doing no better in math or English than they were 4 years ago, and barely any improvement over the last ~20 years. Only about 25% of seniors are proficient in math, while roughly 40% are proficient in reading. This despite the fact that graduation rates are actually up. This study includes public and private schools. The study also showed that there is still a huge gap in the performance of white and Asian students compared to black and Latino students.

Spoiler: Other bits of data

"Among the findings:
—Students who reported rarely or never discussing reading interpretations in class had average scores lower than those who did daily or almost daily.
—An overwhelming majority reported that reading is enjoyable. Students who strongly disagreed with the idea that reading is enjoyable had an average score much lower than those who strongly agreed.
—Math scores were higher, on average, for students who took calculus and lowest for students who had not taken a math course beyond Algebra I.
—Math scores were higher for students who reported math was their favorite subject, believed the subject would help them in the future or thought their class was engaging."

My question is this: what do you see as the problem? Are teachers the problem, as some suggested? Is the Department of Education to blame? Racism inherent in our society? Is something wrong with the current generation of kids? The current generation of parents?

Click to expand...

Parents, for never allowing responsibility of education to fall on their children, and the DoE for caring more about graduation results and attendance than the actual education of students.

Everyone.

When our culture, entertainment, and society values responsibility and looking outward to others more than inward to self, then education will improve. It will certainly not be fixed by changing education methods or standards. We are only a few steps away, as a society, from taking child-raising responsibilities from families and making it a government function.

Here's my take. I teach 8th grade English in California. My district is better than average, but it is by no means rich.

• Students are, by and large, lazy. They want everything done for them, and they despise working and thinking. Seriously, I often get kids telling me they hate thinking or making decisions. They don't do homework, and they don't want to do anything that they don't see as immediately fun.
• Roughly 75% of parents fall into one of two bad categories: completely disinterested in their child's education, or over-involved. Many of the disinterested will ignore emails and phone calls from teachers. They certainly don't follow through, or hold their kids accountable in any way. They tend to get annoyed if they are forced to get involved by the administration. They are quick to blame teachers/staff/administrators for any problems. Then you have the helicopter parents. They are the ones who want email about every grade on every assignment. They are the ones who are worried that getting a C on a worksheet in 8th grade will keep their child from getting into college. They want to know why it takes more than one day for you to enter grades online for an assignment. Nothing is ever good enough, but they don't actually help. They just pester and pressure.
• Teachers are hit and miss. I like to think of myself as a good teacher, and I'm sorry to brag, but other students and teachers seem to back that up. I also know many colleagues who are passionate and brilliant. However, when I go to a staff meeting, I am reminded that many others at the schools I've worked at suck. I've seen/heard about many teachers just handing out worksheets and telling kids to work on them day in and day out, no instruction whatsoever. I've seen teachers laugh about giving kids detentions and referrals in front of other students. I've seen teachers show up late, unprepared, hung over, and tell stories about their sex life. At least the schools I've been at, whether or not a student gets a good teacher is a gamble. Some of us care and work hard and know how to educate, and others whine about wanting to go home and watch TV every day.
• Race is a big divide. When I have trouble with students, either behaviorally or academically, they overwhelmingly tend to be black or Latino. I DO NOT think that there is something inferior about people of color. Instead, I think that the echoes of slavery and oppression, along with modern racism, tends to keep people of color poor and uneducated. Being poor and uneducated tends to make it hard to parent properly due to time and money constraints. It becomes a vicious cycle, and I don't have an answer.
• I'm rarely able to say this in mixed company, but fuck teachers' unions. I have been fucked over by them or watched them fuck people over more often than I've seen them help. They exist to protect the weak and old teachers from being held accountable for their poor performance, while eager and talented young teachers are told to go fuck themselves. The union's priorities are fucked, and though I understand the basic need for them, they are not working as intended. At all.
• Somehow the least effective teachers always seem to become principals and administrators. I think it's obvious how that hurts school districts.
• As a society, we want education that is cheap but 100% effective, while requiring virtually no involvement from parents. This is stupid and unrealistic, but it doesn't stop people from bitching.

I think there should be an All the Above option.

Bowielee said:

I think there should be an All the Above option.

Click to expand...

You can select multiple (or all) answers.[DOUBLEPOST=1399482102,1399482046][/DOUBLEPOST]I'd love it if people took the time to explain what they picked. Some people have done that, but I see a lot of clicks for "the whole system" and not that many explanations.

Here's the thing though, I have two kids. They both like school, but one of them wants nothing to do with homework and would rather stay home than go, even though he loves his teachers and learning. The other one cries at the thought of having to go on summer break and would literally live at school if given the option. They are both very intelligent for their age, but the older one would flunk out if he wasn't being pushed and prodded every step of the way. Part of it is that he is autistic, but he is given so much leeway and reduced work loads that the only reason he has left for not acing everything is that he would rather do fun things and has no self motivation. I have spent hours fighting tooth and nail with him, I set up a plan with his teachers to increase the penalties at school instead of me crying for hours with him, but that still only lasted so long.

TLDR: While I am sure some parents are to blame, there is also plenty of room to blame students and societal influence.

Tress said:

they don't want to do anything that they don't see as immediately fun.

Click to expand...

This really stuck out to me as both a student and teacher. The idea that the teacher needs to be entertaining to get children engaged just blows my mind. We are not going to find a million "Robin Williams" to come into classrooms and "inspire" the children. The inspiration to learn needs to be innate, or at least guided from the family (etc.) I always felt like I had to preform daily. Like being on a non-stop Broadway production for the rest of your career. It was one of the most important sources of stress for me.

This idea of entertaining education just gives kids and parents an easy cop-out if they don't like the teacher.

It irks me to no end. I wasn't always entertained, but I didn't expect to be in school. I understood that some days or assignments would be boring. Kids now demand to be entertained 24/7.

I put the whole system because no child left behind should instead be named "No Child Can Get Ahead". Standardization of testing has made it so that other subjects that are outside the purview of the tests are basically ignored or marginalized. Art, music, recess. These things are all being removed slowly or quickly, depending on where you are. Additionally, sports teams (for high schools) are given a pass simply because they bring in money, regardless of the benefits - real or perceived - that they give.

Add in the fact that schools are so fearful of lawsuits that they implement all sorts of insane rules that do nothing more than to stifle students and kill whatever love of school these kids might have.

Also, because of politics, public schools are more and more getting the shaft as areas try to privatize schools or create a system of vouchers that are detrimental to those who are socio-economically disadvantaged.

And that's why I chose what I chose.

stienman said:

We are only a few steps away, as a society, from taking child-raising responsibilities from families and making it a government function.

Click to expand...

Don't think I haven't noticed. It's almost portrayed that an individual couldn't possibly properly raise a child, and so at every step the Government must be there to ensure the welfare of the child. You know what? A family could do an amazing job of raising a child if they didn't have to work two full-time jobs just to make ends meet.

Dave said:

Art, music, recess. These things are all being removed slowly or quickly, depending on where you are.

Click to expand...

These things make students happy. Our focus is on training people to be productive, not happy. Happiness is overrated.

--Patrick

I don't want to be responsible for your child. I will do my best to teach them about English and help them appreciate writing, poetry, reading, etc. But I would love it if parents helped too. Many of them just want us to do everything and be done with it. When I first started teaching, there was a colleague of mine who was having problems because he made the mistake of giving some food to a student for lunch a few times. When he stopped providing free lunch, the mother complained. Like it was his job to feed the kid on top of everything else.

Tress said:

I don't want to be responsible for your child. I will do my best to teach them about English and help them appreciate writing, poetry, reading, etc. But I would love it if parents helped too. Many of them just want us to do everything and be done with it. When I first started teaching, there was a colleague of mine who was having problems because he made the mistake of giving some food to a student for lunch a few times. When he stopped providing free lunch, the mother complained. Like it was his job to feed the kid on top of everything else.

Click to expand...

When my kids got to high school we were told that we could no longer participate in anything except going to events. We only ever saw or spoke to their teachers if it were conference time or if there were issues.

I'm really surprised by how many people are blaming the students. Whoever students are, we as adults are pretty much entirely responsible for what they are. Unless there has been some wild dramatic genetic shift in the last 30 years I didn't know about, then "kids these days" start from the exact same position that we did. The only difference is the environment they were raised in.

Tress said:

Here's my take. I teach 8th grade English in California. My district is better than average, but it is by no means rich.

• Students are, by and large, lazy. They want everything done for them, and they despise working and thinking. Seriously, I often get kids telling me they hate thinking or making decisions. They don't do homework, and they don't want to do anything that they don't see as immediately fun.

Click to expand...

You know, that sounds exactly like me when I was a kid. And most undergrads. And a lot of people I work with. Probably me as well. Just a matter of perspective (in this case respectively: my elders, my grad school gf, me, and my boss)

True Detective said:

Jake Herbert: So you're telling me the world isn't getting worse? I've seen kids today all in black wearing makeup, shit on their faces, everything is sex, Clinton.
Detective Marty Hart: You know, throughout history, I bet every old man probably said the same thing. And old men die, and the world keeps spinnin'.

Click to expand...

I do agree with most everything else you said though, specifically unions.

Necronic said:

I'm really surprised by how many people are blaming the students. Whoever students are, we as adults are pretty much entirely responsible for what they are. Unless there has been some wild dramatic genetic shift in the last 30 years I didn't know about, then "kids these days" start from the exact same position that we did. The only difference is the environment they were raised in.



You know, that sounds exactly like me when I was a kid. And most undergrads. And a lot of people I work with. Probably me as well. Just a matter of perspective (in this case respectively: my elders, my grad school gf, me, and my boss)

Spoiler

I do agree with most everything else you said though, specifically unions.

Click to expand...

I should be clear. The current year of students that I have are lazier, compared to the ones last year and the ones in 7th grade right now. That tends to stick out in my mind, and that's why I said what I said.

I owe you a really well thought out and eloquent response to the poll, especially since I selected all of the options, but I spent all day at work providing really well thought out and eloquent responses to complicated questions, so you're not getting one tonight. Hopefully the rest of my week won't be as bad as today was.

The main problem here is that there is no one answer to your question. School isn't a singular thing. It encompasses socialization issues, latent and encouraged talent issues, economic issues, race issues, youth culture issues, technology issues, psychological development issues. There's a whole melange of forces at work there.

That is one of the major reasons that I HATE No Child Left Behind. It's taking ALL of that and compressing it into standardized learning. Learning is messy and different for everyone. There will never EVER be a one size fits all approach to it. What will work brilliantly with some students will work horribly for others. Some learn by doing, some learn by showing, some learn by reading. That's the one small thing that the whole "new math" thing got right (but as usual has been wildly twisted), kids, and adults for that matter, need to realize that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

We expect our education system to function like an assembly line, but human beings aren't like manufactured goods.

Standardized learning is unavoidable though, because it allows standardized assessment of education facilities. It's a very poor implementation of the system, I think common core will work better, but the previous system was untennable. I think that the best way is a blend of both. Have a strong universal core that will be taught, and then allow significant embellishments by the teachers.

Well, there's also the fact that most people think that every child has the potential to be a Nobel laureate. It just ain't so.

PatrThom said:

These things make students happy. Our focus is on training people to be productive, not happy. Happiness is overrated.

Click to expand...

Um, no.

I hated music class, it was not for my happiness. But I had to do it or I'd have an F on my report card.

Studies in the last few years have shown the importance of play in development and learning. Taking away recess might not seem like it'd have a big impact, except even 3rd graders these days are coming home with two to three hours of homework.

Zero Esc said:

Um, no. I hated music class, it was not for my happiness. But I had to do it or I'd have an F on my report card. Studies in the last few years have shown the importance of play in development and learning. Taking away recess might not seem like it'd have a big impact, except even 3rd graders these days are coming home with two to three hours of homework.

Click to expand...

Just so there's no confusion, I was saying that from the point of view of the institution, not myself.

On a slightly different note, Kati is convinced that all of these sorts of changes were(/are) intentionally selected towards an ultimate goal of turning out a workforce of compliant, aspiration-free, complacent laborers rather than generating any kind of innovators, thinkers, or (worst of all) questioners. While I'm not convinced this is 100% true, the actions of the institutions aren't doing themselves any favors.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Just so there's no confusion, I was saying that from the point of view of the institution, not myself.

On a slightly different note, Kati is convinced that all of these sorts of changes were(/are) intentionally selected towards an ultimate goal of turning out a workforce of compliant, aspiration-free, complacent laborers rather than generating any kind of innovators, thinkers, or (worst of all) questioners. While I'm not convinced this is 100% true, the actions of the institutions aren't doing themselves any favors.

--Patrick

Click to expand...

I think it'd be easier to keep churning out the "follow your dreams instead of get a safe career path" type of media and encourage people to follow it. Ensures a basic workforce, since not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc.

That said, I'm with Kati. This all seems pretty deliberate. Make sure there's easy access to entertainment, make sure the system is broken enough so only a few will rise above the bottom grade. It's Brave New World without the genetic manipulation, and I'm sure that won't be too far down the road.

I think it's fair to point out that the current generation is pretty much universally acknowledged as being highly creative in the workforce. Creativity is increasing, not decreasing. You have to remember that back in our parents days it was considered a pretty big social mistake to buck mainstream conformity.

Honestly, I live in a school district where my daughter's elementary school had a better music program than I have ever seen in an elementary school, and schools in general that have teachers that bend over backwards to help any kid that is struggling, so I feel like my input is biased.

"All of the above". but with lots of caveats and different loads of "guilt" and whatnot.
1. We expect all children to reach what we consider "basic" levels of everything. Yes, I'm a renaissance man and I lile it and I want everyone ot have the option of learrning about everything. But 50 years ago, how much math did your factory labourer know? How much history was your garage mechanic aware of? How much math did the priest know his way around? Not everyone wants or needs everything, and while "basics" are nice, we're putting the bar for what "basic" is higher and higher.
2. Our whole culture is being structured around quick turn-arounds and easy gratification. Be it a computer game (compare now to 20 years ago), TV (everything has to move much faster etc), music (modern pop isn't just made by artists - there's plenty of math behind making the beats just so), etc etc. Parenting, teachers - everything's supposed to be fun, easy, and clear for children. heck, my niece is 10x as fast as I am on an iPad...But good luck making her do something she doesn't want to or that doesn't "reward" her in 5 minutes. Less so on the other side of the family where it's still farmers and mechanics and carpenters - their children play outside and stuff, and are, frankly, better behaved and easier to deal with
3. As patrThom said - 50 years ago, how many people were working 2 or 3 or 4 jobs split amongst 2 parents? I'm not at all advocating "women should stay home", but having a parent around who can focus their attention on their children is a better idea than forcing everyone to work too much and having all children in creches and after school care.
4. While I do think racism is there, obviously, I think it's more classism. A study released a few days ago found 40% of 15 year olds from migratory backgrounds, even 2nd or 3rd generation, hadn't mastered enough math to cope with daily adult life (the bar wasn't all that high - determining price per unit from package prices, factoring in coupons, working out how much gas you'd get for how much money, deciding which subscription gave more bang per buck from a phone company and such - actual "real life" adult stuff, not trigonometry ). Are migrants just plain dumb? No, of course not. It was mostly due to parents not being able to help at home work (because of language or because they lacked the skills themselves), and partly because these children felt no "reason" to be good at math since they'd never get anywhere (because racism). Jilted and uninspired, unmotivated children without parental help, and from a poor background, and we're surprised they underperform? Well whoopdeedoo.
5. Our educational system is still geared towards pouring a bunch of information from one vessel into a bunch of others. Where we see teachers try and teach more from practice and interest, student interest peaks...But their grades drop. Just teaching facts is useless parotting. Letting children decide what and how they want to learn builds no character whatsoever. We're still evolving and we'll get there eventually.
6. While I don't think there's a sinister conspiracy to turn children into drones, I do think there's a big gulf between what you expect from schooling. CEOs want people trained for the work place - work ethic, compliant, good math and language, hard working, eager and fast to learn/pick up new stuff. This is a different "goal" than trying to make happy, productive, creative individuals who can explore their talents and can stand proudly and inquisitively in the world. We need both, but you can't jsut look at 5 year olds and say "okay, you're an Alpha, you go to Smart School; you're a Beta, you get arts and sports; you're a Gamma, you get to learn how to work the conveyor belt as efficiently as possible and how to plow the fields". And even if you could, I don't think you should.

We would have a happier and more productive workforce if people were encouraged to find something that they do well and get them on a mentor track for that career path. Instead we have people who are railroaded into a narrow educational path and are forced to work in cubicles and hate their jobs. I see it every day.

One problem is our grading system. In part because every student is expected to get an A, but also because we expect that A to be 90% or better. Forget comparisons to real life and whatever "percentage" is expected in whatever job, just consider how difficult it must be for a teacher to write a test that all students can reasonably expect to get at least 70% right (and most can get 90%+), while still testing the limits of the students who are easily getting 90%+, without having the test drag on for too many questions... It's ridiculous.

Another problem is that society as a whole doesn't value intelligence. We still fear and mock smart people. At the same time we glorify the benefits of intelligence (the brilliant spy who hacks into systems while kicking ass, all our gadgets in internets), we also marginalize and even degrade intellectual pursuits. We, as a society, only want people to be smart when it's in a cool situation that's outside of our normal lives, or when they're creating something that benefits us, and we don't have to deal with them personally. Society still wants to degrade study and intellectual pursuit, still wants to degrade logical thinking, but still wants the illusion of intelligence, without actually thinking.

figmentPez said:

Society still wants to degrade study and intellectual pursuit, still wants to degrade logical thinking, but still wants the illusion of intelligence, without actually thinking.

Click to expand...

Society is still uncomfortable with the notion of being forced to admit that there are other people who are better at something AND that this superiority may be demonstrated where others can see and make comparisons/judge.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Society is still uncomfortable with the notion of being forced to admit that there are other people who are better at something AND that this superiority may be demonstrated where others can see and make comparisons/judge.

Click to expand...

Really? They seem to love the Superbowl, the World Cup, the Olympics...

figmentPez said:

Really? They seem to love the Superbowl, the World Cup, the Olympics...

Click to expand...

... and then they turn around and give all the kids "participation" trophies regardless of how well they did.

GasBandit said:

... and then they turn around and give all the kids "participation" trophies regardless of how well they did.

Click to expand...

Well the losing team gets rings too.

figmentPez said:

Really? They seem to love the Superbowl, the World Cup, the Olympics...

Click to expand...

I would say that's because that invokes an "us v. them" mentality, rather than a "him v. me" situation.
I mean, there was the whole Mars lander thing, the Higgs Boson research, even the Moon landing(s). Patriotism, team efforts, all of 'em. Gives a guy a good sense of belonging to something wonderful (and thereby vicariously sharing in that success).
BUT...you wear one navy sock and one black sock, or open your door in a car wash, or forget to read a road sign, and suddenly you are a buffoon, an idiot, a subject of ridicule, like a contestant on a Japanese game show. And nobody wants to be "that guy." Better instead to make sure nobody is allowed to be smarter than you without being punished for it.

--Patrick

I wonder if Vonnegut really knew how prophetic Harrison Bergeron was.

I've never really seen much indication that people hate intelligence.

We hate intellectual frauds desperate to show the world how smart they are.

There's a difference.

I once got made fun of for saying "structural integrity." This was from someone pursuing a post-grad degree.

Necronic said:

I've never really seen much indication that people hate intelligence.

We hate intellectual frauds desperate to show the world how smart they are.

There's a difference.

Click to expand...

Put a kid in a class with all levels of achievers, who can answer every damned question that the teacher asks after a lesson... then you get the idea that yes, Americans hate smarter people. I've heard ridicule directed at these kids/people through grade school/high school/college/teaching in high school i.e. other teachers harassing the know it all in in-service/to a lesser extent in the work place.

Necronic said:

I've never really seen much indication that people hate intelligence.

We hate intellectual frauds desperate to show the world how smart they are.

There's a difference.

Click to expand...

You obviously were never threatened by jocks in school for "shooting the curve."[DOUBLEPOST=1399586191,1399586141][/DOUBLEPOST]

sixpackshaker said:

Put a kid in a class with all levels of achievers, who can answer every damned question that the teacher asks after a lesson... then you get the idea that yes, Americans hate smarter people. I've heard ridicule directed at these kids/people through grade school/high school/college/teaching in high school i.e. other teachers harassing the know it all in in-service/to a lesser extent in the work place.

Click to expand...

Bart Simpson is the cool underachiever all the kids want to be like. Lisa Simpson is the nerd they groan at.

There is a big difference between an intelligent person and a know it all. Know it alls, like Lisa, lack a lot of intelligence in some very basic areas.

Necronic said:

There is a big difference between an intelligent person and a know it all. Know it alls, like Lisa, lack a lot of intelligence in some very basic areas.

Click to expand...

Name an intelligent recurring character on the Simpsons that isn't either marginalized and/or disparaged by the moronic majority, or a villain outright.

Name a major character with ANY distinguishing greatness in that show that isn't marginalized in some other way. It's a comedy ffs.[DOUBLEPOST=1399587863,1399587773][/DOUBLEPOST]In a way that is hard to appreciate, know it alls are really just another form of bully. Most of us probably don't appreciate it because (correct me if I'm wrong here) I think most of us are pretty intelligent, but having a know it all constantly show you how much smarter he is than you must feel really crappy to a person who isn't that smart.

And I don't think it's really that intelligent to do something like that to someone and not realize it. I do appreciate that we really are verging on some Harrison Bergeron stuff here, but....there's a really important difference.

Hand-raisers and know it alls show off their intelligence solely for the benefit of their fragile ego, not because they are accomplishing something of value. That's very different than someone who generates something of value with their intelligence, like the dudes at the Hadron place.

Really? We are now resorting to calling people names? Do Gym Class Heroes get made fun of for treating gym like the Olympics? Just checking.

Who's calling people what names?

Edit: in a fit of delicious irony I just locked my keys in my office, a decidedly idiotic thing to do.

Necronic said:

Name a major character with ANY distinguishing greatness in that show that isn't marginalized in some other way. It's a comedy ffs.

Click to expand...

As such, it is a window to the collective consciousness of the culture. Underachievement is glorified, as is belligerent ignorance. Lisa wasn't that much of a "know it all," especially not compared to the even smarter Martin Price. But even her more modest attempts at intellectual or cultural achievement are ridiculed or sabotaged, if not portrayed as outright futile. Nowhere is it more eloquently shown that achievement is ridiculed than in the current ubiquitous epithet for those who strive: "Tryhard."

In a way that is hard to appreciate, know it alls are really just another form of bully. Most of us probably don't appreciate it because (correct me if I'm wrong here) I think most of us are pretty intelligent, but having a know it all constantly show you how much smarter he is than you must feel really crappy to a person who isn't that smart.

And I don't think it's really that intelligent to do something like that to someone and not realize it. I do appreciate that we really are verging on some Harrison Bergeron stuff here, but....there's a really important difference.

Hand-raisers and know it alls show off their intelligence solely for the benefit of their fragile ego, not because they are accomplishing something of value. That's very different than someone who generates something of value with their intelligence, like the dudes at the Hadron place.

Click to expand...

I think maybe you've had the good fortune to be surrounded by people generally more intelligent than some. I'll admit that there have been times I've "flexed my brain" to make someone else feel stupid, but I've been told by friends and loved ones before that, even when I'm not, my intellect (even my vocabulary alone, in particular) is intimidating. I think what it boils down to in many cases is that when the average (or sub-average) feel intimidated, they find ways to cut you back down to their level. It's the crab mentality. And when those insecurities become part of setting policies, you get tall poppy syndrome sneaking up on you.

If you don't think it is wrong to use "hand raisers" and "know it alls" when talking about smart outgoing kids, then I don't know what to say. Those kids are no different than outgoing jocks, and therefore I do not agree with the idea that they should be labeled in a way that is cast in a negative light, but everyone seems to agree that they are just being arrogant dicks.

I'm not talking about all smart outgoing kids at all. I'm talking about people desperate to prove how smart they are and see it in the eyes of others. There is an important difference and it's usually very obvious.

GasBandit said:

As such, it is a window to the collective consciousness of the culture. Underachievement is glorified, as is belligerent ignorance. Lisa wasn't that much of a "know it all," especially not compared to the even smarter Martin Price. But even her more modest attempts at intellectual or cultural achievement are ridiculed or sabotaged, if not portrayed as outright futile. Nowhere is it more eloquently shown that achievement is ridiculed than in the current ubiquitous epithet for those who strive: "Tryhard."

Click to expand...

Hmmm. I mean...you make some good points. I find comedy to be a bad place to find insights into anything other than the negatives of people, it's inherently biased. Based on what I know of you I'm guessing you've read Stranger in a Strange Land. I'm not always a Heinlein fan, but his analysis of comedy is pure genius.

"Tryhard" as a term though, with the people I play with, has a pretty specific meaning. It's people who start taking the game so seriously that they ruin it for everyone else they play with. Basically, they're assholes. But I have heard it used as a generally degrading term for people who really get into the numbers of a game....which is what I'm guessing you're talking about. I see it, sure, but (at least in my circle) it doesn't get very far.

But I play EvE online which has try hard as a pre-req

I think maybe you've had the good fortune to be surrounded by people generally more intelligent than some. I'll admit that there have been times I've "flexed my brain" to make someone else feel stupid, but I've been told by friends and loved ones before that, even when I'm not, my intellect (even my vocabulary alone, in particular) is intimidating. I think what it boils down to in many cases is that when the average (or sub-average) feel intimidated, they find ways to cut you back down to their level. It's the crab mentality. And when those insecurities become part of setting policies, you get tall poppy syndrome sneaking up on you.

Click to expand...

Maybe I have been lucky, I mean...I'm a scientist so a lot of the people I know are really smart. But I meet and hang out with all sorts of people, and the only time I've ever had anyone shit on me for being smart is when I was intentionally and unnecessarily using flowery language, which really was pretty stupid.

It's not that people don't like smart people. People don't like braggarts. And it's not just jealousy, I think people dislike braggarts because it shows a really sad part of the human ego, a need for external validation that requires beating other people.

GasBandit said:

It's the crab mentality.

Click to expand...

TIL crabs are huge dicks.

I would think the fact that there are a ton of pejorative terms for smart people would be telling enough about how our society values intelligent people.

Hell, look at how hard our culture makes fun of Asian culture for daring to try to raise intelligent children.

I am not a teacher, nor a parent, nor a current high school kid.

but I believe that the reason why they show no improvement in Math is because Square One TV never came back on the air.



(being light-hearted, feel to ignore in favor of serious discussion)

Jesus Christ, that was an unexpected burst of nostalgia.

The episode with the murder suicide was really weird. Seems like there are better ways to teach zero-sum game.

Necronic said:

In a way that is hard to appreciate, know it alls are really just another form of bully.

Click to expand...

It's not that hard to appreciate. It was even blatantly demonstrated on the Simpsons "Bart the Genius" episode, where he scams his way into a gifted-and-talented school, only to have the other, smarter kids take advantage of his ignorance to steal his lunch.

GasBandit said:

I'll admit that there have been times I've "flexed my brain" to make someone else feel stupid, but I've been told by friends and loved ones before that, even when I'm not, my intellect (even my vocabulary alone, in particular) is intimidating.

Click to expand...

That sounds...familiar.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

It's not that hard to appreciate. It was even blatantly demonstrated on the Simpsons "Bart the Genius" episode, where he scams his way into a gifted-and-talented school, only to have the other, smarter kids take advantage of his ignorance to steal his lunch.

That sounds...familiar.

--Patrick

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it sounds familiar for most people on this board. There are quite a few smart cookies on this forum.

Necronic said:

It's not that people don't like smart people. People don't like braggarts. And it's not just jealousy, I think people dislike braggarts because it shows a really sad part of the human ego, a need for external validation that requires beating other people.

Click to expand...

As someone who had to learn to hold back his intelligence, and to carefully phrase things to avoid seeming arrogant, it's not always the motivation of a smart person to show off their intelligence, especially a child. I've had friends tell me that I'm so smart that they're afraid of me. Not recently, since I've learned how to hide the bits that seem most threatening, or the most annoying, but I hated my own intelligence for a while growing up, because I didn't know how to not have people hate me for being smart.

I used to be intelligent, but then came the fluoride. Mmmm, good old fluoride.

Tress nails it. Just fricking nails it. I can't tell you how often these kids don't do their homework, but then go on and on about their multi-hour Minecraft or CoD sessions. There are too many parents who ignore teachers entirely, or view any criticism of their child as a personal attack.

There other facets that doesn't get nearly enough attention in this discussion. One is the growing multibillion dollar testing industry that creates tests that often don't reflect the actual curriculum, lobby the hell out of state legislatures to adopt those tests, and the immediate effect is "poor performance" ratings. This forces a rewrite of the curriculum, which takes time and effort to design and implement. By then, the politicians get their noses out of joint, change the standards AGAIN, and the unhealthy cycle repeats. I understand the need for high standards, but when they're constantly shifting, often arbitrary and unrealistic, and utilize testing systems that simply don't provide enough accommodations for those students that need it, of course it won't end well. But there's money to be made and passed around, so it keeps happening. I don't think that the growing influence from private businesses gets nearly enough attention.

We need another Soviet Union. That'll prioritize American education right quick. Seriously, that was a HUGE driving force in the 1950-1970's. There's a reason why old school American engineers and scientists were among the best in many generations.

Mathias said:

We need another Soviet Union. That'll prioritize American education right quick. Seriously, that was a HUGE driving force in the 1950-1970's. There's a reason why old school American engineers and scientists were among the best in many generations.

Click to expand...

Don't worry, Putin is all over that.

Dei said:

Really? We are now resorting to calling people names? Do Gym Class Heroes get made fun of for treating gym like the Olympics? Just checking.

Click to expand...

Yes.

Square One! Holy crap.

MATH MAN. MATH MAN. MATH MAN. MATH MAN. MATH MAN.

Never seen Square One. It wasn't a thing either a) at my school or b) when I was going to school (not sure which).

EDIT: Looked it up. It's (b).

--Patrick

I apparently missed a page of replies.

Necronic said:

There is a big difference between an intelligent person and a know it all. Know it alls, like Lisa, lack a lot of intelligence in some very basic areas.

Click to expand...

Everyone lacks intelligence in some areas and possesses it in others.

What it sounds like you're trying to say is "you can get the answer right, but don't be smug about it". But Dei's right; no one would say that to someone doing well in gym class.

I can share quite a bit of sentiment with what lots of people have said. I've always been looked down on because of my intelligence. It's even worse that I grew up in a town of under 2000 people. You're practically a circus freak back home if you enjoy reading a book.

My brother and I both were much smarter than most the folks around us. He sublimated his intelligence completely, while I retreated into the hobbies that draw me to you fine folks.

I know that sounds like bragging, but it's really not. It kind of made growing up terrible. For me, that was more traumatizing than dealing with coming out as gay in a small town. I was more of an aberration for having read Shakespeare and The Odyssey for fun than I ever was for just being gay.

Bowielee said:

I can share quite a bit of sentiment with what lots of people have said. I've always been looked down on because of my intelligence. It's even worse that I grew up in a town of under 2000 people. You're practically a circus freak back home if you enjoy reading a book.

My brother and I both were much smarter than most the folks around us. He sublimated his intelligence completely, while I retreated into the hobbies that draw me to you fine folks.

I know that sounds like bragging, but it's really not. It kind of made growing up terrible. For me, that was more traumatizing than dealing with coming out as gay in a small town. I was more of an aberration for having read Shakespeare and The Odyssey for fun than I ever was for just being gay.

Click to expand...

Crowd has their pitchforks and torches: Confess!

Bowie: I'm gay.

Crowd: Oh, well, that's alright, you just love whoever you love and feel attracted to--

Bowie: And I read books. For fun.

Crowd: BURN THE WITCH!

Zero Esc said:

Crowd: BURN THE WITCH!

Click to expand...

And of course I heard it in Tristan's voice.

GasBandit said:

And of course I heard it in Tristan's voice.

Click to expand...

So did I.

I just think the nature of learning is bunk.

Going to be honest here, but during school I suffered from a few specific learning disabilities. It got so far down, that by the time I was a sophomore in high school I either barely passed my classes or outright failed them (had to transfer out of Spanish because it was as if I didn't learn anything half way through the semester).

The issue was not lack of interest, but lack of retention, because my brain had issues retaining vocalized information. A teacher standing in front of me going on and on about a subject sounded like the peanuts adults. "Wahhh wahhhhh wahh wah wah" Where I did excel though, was reading. I was five grades ahead on my reading compared to my peers and could speed read circles around my friends.

So what did my school do? They talked to me. They moved me into a specialized class that was mostly saved for kids that had similar learning issues as me (and a few troubled students). The idea behind the class was that the teacher oversaw the class but taught absolutely nothing. He would tell us what we would be learning that week, gave us a set of assignments due by the end of the week, and told us to learn about it on our own. During class, rather then having to pay attention to someone, I checked out some books and read them at my desk. There was no homework. Going to school became relaxed, with much less daily pressure.

By the time I was a junior I went from a failing student to a 4.0 average. I was even inducted into the National Honor Society. I retained more knowledge about math, biology, English, etc... then I had ever learned in the regular classes, all because I was allowed to get myself engaged in the material my own way. Before I knew it, I started reading information at home, not just because I had to, but because I wanted to.

We focus so much on tests and quizzes, we forget that the biggest issue is simply engagement. You have to make them want to learn, and beating them over the head with information at the front of a room is not always the best method to achieve that.

ScytheRexx said:

beating them over the head with information at the front of a room is not always the best method to achieve that.

Click to expand...

Quite the opposite, more likely.

--Patrick