Export thread

Ex-cop, ex-military James Dorner is waging war on the LAPD

#1

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I didn't want to be the one to post this thread since I have.. well, you know, some bias/history with the subject, BUT this is too fascinating of a story to not share. And it's ongoing. There's a lot going on with it.

First - the basic story: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/08/us/dorner-lapd-history/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Enter Christopher Jordan Dorner, a 33-year-old, 270-pound LAPD washout who is now the most hunted man in America. He is the suspect in three killings and has dredged up the LAPD scandals in a 6,000-word rant addressed to "America" and posted on his Facebook page.
Click to expand...
"The department has not changed since the Rampart and Rodney King days," he wrote. "It has gotten worse. The consent decree should never have been lifted."
Dorner is angry about being fired by the LAPD. He is articulate and lucid enough to trigger flashbacks to a time not so long ago when patrol officers broke their world into two categories: "blue and everybody else."
Click to expand...


I'm not in any way condoning / cheering him on. I don't believe in vigilante justice or the death penalty for anyone, even corrupt cops. But this is bringing up some interesting questions, and I hope it can shine the light on police corruption.
Also... the police in the LA area are shooting random innocent people in the attempt to find Dorner. Without really giving warning or giving the people (who aren't Dorner) a chance to surrender:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...x-cop-manhunt-had-no-warning-lawyer-says?lite
Obviously this makes me think they're just trying to execute him, and there's not much of a chance he'll ever make it to jail, even if he's captured.
Also, he's released a manifesto... there are several versions floating around. Some have censored people's names / families that he calls out by name. I think the Facebook version got cut off due to length. I heard there's a version that has a part added to the end that is tonally different and adds a bunch of praise for people conservatives hate / liberal icons. People think this was added on by some far right people to set him up as a "lefty". I haven't read any of them, yet.


#2

TommiR

TommiR

Regardless of how things may be in the LAPD, this guy didn't go after bad cops. He killed a woman and her fiance, just because she was the daughter of a cop he apparently had beef with. To my mind, purposefully shooting people who had nothing to do with anything eliminates even the flimsy excuse of vigilante justice. This guy is a crazy murderer, and the sooner they neutralise the threat he poses, the better.

It is very unfortunate that outsiders have died during this manhunt. Apparently some police departments there have some internal problems in need of correcting. The death of innocents, always a regrettable thing, is I think particularly bad in this case, as the bad press may force the officers on the search to be reined in. As the suspect has the training, would be familiar with police procedures, and likely has picked up some police comms gear, this has the potential to become a longer process with more innocent deaths than necessary, as the hands of the cops may become partially tied.


#3

Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

This whole thing has been just nuts to read about. I don't know what to think, other than that I hope he's caught and not killed. I'm very pro-whistleblower and transparency, but obviously this guy is violent and extreme, and seemingly has a personal vendetta with the department, which is too bad because that's going to discredit whatever truth he has produced.

It is a strange, kinda scary story.


#4

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

I hope this guy is caught before any more bodies show up, but I can't help but feel that the LAPD is more interested in killing him than in bringing him in for trial. It honestly seems like the LAPD is intent on silencing him before he gets a chance to prove his accusations true. Considering their reputation and previous actions, this is entirely possible.

At any rate, I hope this guy turns himself in... preferably to someone that won't shoot him in custody. Or at the very least that no one else gets hurt.


#5

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

TommiR said:
s may force the officers on the search to be reined in. ...

..., as the hands of the cops may become partially tied.
Click to expand...
The police have shot three (3) vehicles over a dozen times each without any warning, and it's a miracle none of the occupants were killed. I would hate to see the officers without their hands tied.


#6

TommiR

TommiR

Yes, as I said, some police departments might have some things they need to look into once this is over. But it is quite possible to go overboard in the other direction due to outside pressure as well, as may often happen when mistakes are made in high-publicity cases. The mistakes made in this case could well result in temporary measures due to the outcry, measures that reduce in the effectiveness of the police search for the offender. Which is particularly unfortunate as the suspect is a person who has insider knowledge, not some brainless gangbanger.


#7

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The police have shot three (3) vehicles over a dozen times each without any warning, and it's a miracle none of the occupants were killed. I would hate to see the officers without their hands tied.
Click to expand...
They shot an old woman and she's in critical condition.


#8

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

http://projects.scpr.org/static/timelines/christopher-dorner-timeline/

This is good and fairly comprehensive.


#9

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

At least the Marshals are in on the hunt now. They'll catch him alive, but he won't be in pristine condition.


#10

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

sixpackshaker said:
At least the Marshals are in on the hunt now. They'll catch him alive, but he won't be in pristine condition.
Click to expand...
They'll probably put him in protective custody too. If they get him, we'll know if he's got any useful insights into the corruption of the LAPD or not... and if it's not, they'll throw him in with the general population.


#11

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The police have shot three (3) vehicles over a dozen times each without any warning, and it's a miracle none of the occupants were killed. I would hate to see the officers without their hands tied.
Click to expand...
This right here, is the real reason for this thread. Not the main subject.


#12

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Gilgamesh said:
This right here, is the real reason for this thread. Not the main subject.
Click to expand...
No. This is a really interesting story. I'm fucking terrified and have no idea what this guy is capable of. It would be crazy if he just disappeared. Or did anything else really crazy. I really hope he gets apprehended and something resembling the truth comes out. But I don't have any hope he won't be murdered by the police.

I would also hope that this sheds light on the numerous LAPD scandals and abuses.


#13

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Gilgamesh said:
This right here, is the real reason for this thread. Not the main subject.
Click to expand...
Seems a good reason for a discussion.


#14

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Ravenpoe said:
Seems a good reason for a discussion.
Click to expand...
It really does. Whatever Charlie's hang-ups, it doesn't change the fact that the LAPD have lost their god damn minds because of this and it's only lending credence to the killer's insinuations.


#15

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

You can say whatever you want about my trolling or what I really think or say just to get a rise, but I really don't want people to get killed. Not Afghani farmers by drone strikes, not LAPD policemen, not murderers. The loss of life is...well, it's just the worst, most final thing for me. And I don't want that to happen to anyone. And this guy seems determined to bring that to the innocent and the guilty without a trial. And that's kind of terrifying! It's also kind of bewildering that with all this technology and manpower, he hasn't been caught despite .... a good solid three days of everyone looking for him.


#16

Espy

Espy

I haven't heard much about it because I've been so busy... thanks for posting this thread, I now know way more. Thanks Charles.[DOUBLEPOST=1360454117][/DOUBLEPOST]
Gilgamesh said:
This right here, is the real reason for this thread. Not the main subject.
Click to expand...
It's obviously not, but it would be fine if it was. It's not exactly a *good* thing.


#17

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

I'm all for a serious discussion about real issues, I was simply pointing out how smart Charlie has gotten about his posting. Previously it would have been a frothing at the mouth post about how the LAPD is shooting at civilian cars with little to nothing to do about the Cop-Killer. We probably would have heard about his redeeming qualities and how the Police State of America turned him so vile. Pretty much his same type of posting in threads like -Black Kids are made criminals by the police- threads or -Drone strikes on mass murderers of civilians and soldiers are not as evil as the drone strike themselves-

Sorry if I'm not wholly convinced of the true reasons behind the thread. It's just always gotten to me how he turns things around on people who are simply doing their best to better the world, through self-sacrafice (Soldiers and Cops) by stereo-typing them using the minority as a blanket subject of fact.


#18

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Let's get off the subject of Gilgamesh's obsession with Charlie and get back to discussing how fucked up this whole scenario is.


#19

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Ravenpoe said:
Let's get off the subject of Gilgamesh's obsession with Charlie and get back to discussing how fucked up this whole scenario is.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry that's what you read and all you got out of that.


#20

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Gilgamesh said:
I'm all for a serious discussion about real issues, I was simply pointing out how smart Charlie has gotten about his posting. Previously it would have been a frothing at the mouth post about how the LAPD is shooting at civilian cars with little to nothing to do about the Cop-Killer.
Click to expand...
You mean he may have learned how to turn it down and actually explain himself in a calm rational fashion and actually engage with the other people he's discussing with (so far)?

That son-of-a-bitch.


#21

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

SpecialKO said:
You mean he may have learned how to turn it down and actually explain himself in a calm rational fashion and actually engage with the other people he's discussing with (so far)?

That son-of-a-bitch.
Click to expand...
That would be fantastic. I really hope so.


#22

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Anyways, while I'm not going to say this crazy guy has any kind of point, there definitely seems to be something weird going on, at least in the culture at LAPD in the way they're treating this.

When the "best" explanation for the scenario is, "several different officers got overly zealous and opened fire on completely the wrong people" that's really, really bad.


#23

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I can't... sensationalize this story. It really is stranger than fiction


#24

Chippy

Chippy

Gilgamesh said:
I'm all for a serious discussion about real issues, I was simply pointing out how smart Charlie has gotten about his posting. Previously it would have been a frothing at the mouth post about how the LAPD is shooting at civilian cars with little to nothing to do about the Cop-Killer. We probably would have heard about his redeeming qualities and how the Police State of America turned him so vile. Pretty much his same type of posting in threads like -Black Kids are made criminals by the police- threads or -Drone strikes on mass murderers of civilians and soldiers are not as evil as the drone strike themselves-

Sorry if I'm not wholly convinced of the true reasons behind the thread. It's just always gotten to me how he turns things around on people who are simply doing their best to better the world, through self-sacrafice (Soldiers and Cops) by stereo-typing them using the minority as a blanket subject of fact.
Click to expand...


#25

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

We can have a fun little img battle in another thread kiddo.


#26

Espy

Espy

Good grief. Gil, lay off charlie. Chippie, lay off Gil. Let's try to at least stay a teeny, tiny bit on topic.

So apparently Charlie Sheen wants this guy to call him, which I assume will turn out great: http://www.examiner.com/article/cal...ie-sheen-wants-christopher-dorner-to-call-him


#27

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
Good grief. Gil, lay off charlie. Chippie, lay off Gil. Let's try to at least stay a teeny, tiny bit on topic.
Click to expand...
Um, we already got past that, like 4 posts ago


#28

jwhouk

jwhouk

This does sound like a combination of Rambo and The Wire. Of course, if you want proof as to how screwed up the LAPD is, just go back about 20 years to OJ.


#29

Espy

Espy

If you say so Gil. Either way, lets just keep the pissing contests to a minimum.

-----

So apparently Drones are now in the mix for finding this guy? http://gizmodo.com/5983175/report-ex cop-christopher-dorner-is-now-a-target-for-drones?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_facebook&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Thats interesting. I assume these aren't armed drones.


#30

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

jwhouk said:
This does sound like a combination of Rambo and The Wire. Of course, if you want proof as to how screwed up the LAPD is, just go back about 20 years to OJ.
Click to expand...
Fun Fact: One of the officers involved with the Rodney King assault was promoted heavily and at one point was commanding over 200 officers. In fact, I believe none of the officers involved were ever fired.

Espy said:
So apparently Drones are now in the mix for finding this guy? http://gizmodo.com/5983175/report-ex cop-christopher-dorner-is-now-a-target-for-drones?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_facebook&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Thats interesting. I assume these aren't armed drones.
Click to expand...
I can only imagine the chaos there would be if the US government used an armed drone and then fired on the wrong guy. It would be a full on riot in the very least.


#31

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
If you say so Gil. Either way, lets just keep the pissing contests to a minimum.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:


#32

Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

This is a highly interesting incident, for sufficiently terrifying values of interesting.

Believe it or not, y'all, I'm with Charlie on this one... the LAPD and the NYPD are the two largest and most notorious metropolitan police departments in the States - on departments that large, it would be impossible for there NOT to be incidents of corruption, favoritism and nepotism.

IF Dorner's complaints are valid, and not (as they appear to be) the rantings of an unhinged mind, they bear looking into.

Thus far, it would appear that LAPD's tension levels have been jacked up past where some people can sustain, thus resulting in the hair-trigger reactions on innocents.

I'm not going to sit here and Monday-Morning Quarterback anyone's actions here - I have no clue how I would be acting if I was patrolling in the middle of a situation like that down here. Lord knows, some neighborhoods under normal conditions are enough to up the adrenaline levels...

But I would LIKE to think that I could maintain the presence of mind to at least VERIFY my target before firing. Shustal.


#33

jwhouk

jwhouk

I dunno about you, Charon, but I'm just surprised something like this hasn't happened before in one of the major police departments.


Oh, wait, it has.


#34

Bowielee

Bowielee

Wait, am I getting this right, jwhouk ? Are you comparing this homicidal guy to Serpico?


#35

Frank

Frank

Officer_Charon said:
This is a highly interesting incident, for sufficiently terrifying values of interesting.

Believe it or not, y'all, I'm with Charlie on this one... the LAPD and the NYPD are the two largest and most notorious metropolitan police departments in the States - on departments that large, it would be impossible for there NOT to be incidents of corruption, favoritism and nepotism.
Click to expand...
It's not surprising. There's double the amount of NYPD officers than there are mounties in Canada. Just based on numbers alone there has to be a great deal of this.


#36

jwhouk

jwhouk

Only in that he got the same level of retaliation within the department... but Serpico didn't go bat-guano crazy afterwards.


#37

Dave

Dave

Dorner may actually have a point with the way the department was/is being run and the fact that there was/is an unsavory element to the police in L.A. Having said that, I agree with TommiR that any message Dorner had was immediately invalidated when he started going after the families of the other officers he's accused of wrongdoing. Had he kept his attacks to only those he deemed dirty cops, I'd be willing to bet he'd have a fairly large following of people if not cheering him on, at least commiserating with his plight. When he killed that girl and her fiancee, he ruined any shred of credibility he may have had or could have achieved.

But the LAPD has STILL managed to come out of this looking like idiots and homicidal fools. They opened fire on TWO different people looking for Dorner. I can see how they thought the white guy was a large black man, but still don't know how the two Asian ladies were targeted.


#38

fade

fade

This guy is pretty close to being a supervillain. He may have had some valid concerns, but he's got to know that the moment he goes on a rampage, his point is lost. One could argue that his manifesto was faked, but if it wasn't, it kind of seems like this guy didn't have all hands on deck near the end.


#39

Espy

Espy

Typical Fade. I knew you wouldn't like this guy.


#40

GasBandit

GasBandit

Chaotic Evil meets Lawful Evil.


#41

Frank

Frank

Apparently they just had a shootout with him and another officer is wounded.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...hunt_n_2672238.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003

Edit - Apparently the shootout is ongoing. Lots of automatic gunfire being heard.


#42

Dave

Dave

Dude eludes the LAPD and will get caught because of fish & game officers. :rofl:

I hope he lives because he'll forever be known as the guy who was beaten by Brickleberry.


#43

Frank

Frank

Ugh, now they're reporting two deputies are down.


#44

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
Dude eludes the LAPD and will get caught because of fish & game officers. :rofl:
Click to expand...
Hey, the Forest Service has to do SOMETHING with that 100 grand in ammo they just bought.


#45

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Dave said:
Dude eludes the LAPD and will get caught because of fish & game officers.
Click to expand...
You send hunters to find a guy hiding in the woods.[DOUBLEPOST=1360706328][/DOUBLEPOST]
GasBandit said:
Hey, the Forest Service has to do SOMETHING with that 100 grand in ammo they just bought.
Click to expand...
And these two guys just spent all that ammo.


#46

Gared

Gared

The point about this entire ordeal that stands out the most to me (aside from the killings, etc.) was one of the quotes that some reporter grabbed from one of the press releases, stating that the situation was very scary because Dorner was using "advanced tactics" like ambushes and decoys. If our police forces really do consider ambushes and decoys to be advanced tactics, we need to improve their training curricula. We learned all about ambushes and decoys in the Boy Scouts, playing capture the flag and paintball capture the flag.


#47

GasBandit

GasBandit

Ambushes and decoys in the woods, hrm?

Isn't it time to send in Colonel Trautman to talk him down yet?


#48

Dave

Dave

AHAHAHA!! I just heard on live CBS news that the shooter was "Ronnie the Limo Driver". The news reader said, "Ronnie the Limo Driver?" The guy said, "Yeah, he was pulling up with some people and was caught in the firefight. He then opened fire." When pressed, he said, "You're a real dumbass, aren't you? You haven't figured out this is a prank call?" And only THEN did they cut him off.


#49

WasabiPoptart

WasabiPoptart

Gared said:
using "advanced tactics" like ambushes and decoys
Click to expand...


#50

PatrThom

PatrThom

Officer_Charon said:
But I would LIKE to think that I could maintain the presence of mind to at least VERIFY my target before firing. Shustal.
Click to expand...
YiPLg0O.jpg


I've been listening to the ongoing reports. Lotta people actin' on panic out there, and nothing's even on fire yet.

--Patrick


#51

Cheesy1

Cheesy1

PatrThom said:
Lotta people actin' on panic out there, and nothing's even on fire yet.

--Patrick
Click to expand...
It is now:
Cabin where ex-LA cop believed holed up aflame


#52

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Weirder and weirder.


#53

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Scary stuff


#54

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

I wonder if he committed suicide or if the Marshals burned him out.


#55

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

I can only imagine how much worse this would be if the ATF were involved.


#56

Gared

Gared

[Updated at 8:34 p.m. ET] At some point today, a suspect tried to get out the back door of the cabin, but he was pushed back inside, U.S. Marshals Service district chief Kurt Ellingson told CNN's Brian Todd.
Click to expand...
That seems... odd.


#57

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Gared said:
That seems... odd.
Click to expand...
Dorner was never going to see the inside of a jail cell. Fire burns all the evidence.


#58

Espy

Espy

Wow. This all sounds legit.


#59

Gared

Gared

Recent reports say that a single shot was heard from inside the cabin either just before or just after the fire broke out; and that a body has been discovered inside the burnt out cabin. Now, we just have to wait for confirmation that it's actually Dorner's body.


#60

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

So... apparently there is audio of police officers on the scene shouting "Shoot the gas!", "Get the gas!", and what sounds like "Burn it down."



This IS turning into another Ruby Ridge/Waco.


#61

Dave

Dave

Let the conspiracy theories begin.


#62

Gared

Gared

Dave said:
Let the conspiracy theories begin.
Click to expand...
Begin?


#63

Frank

Frank

UGH.


#64

Gared

Gared

Honestly, both sides of this came out looking bad. No matter how much of a point Dorner may have had, going to war with the cops is not the way to get that point across, and shooting the daughter of an officer because you have a beef with the officer is just... indescribable, really. On the other hand, the LAPD comes out of this looking like a bunch of blood thirsty, trigger happy fools after shooting up two unrelated civilian vehicles (because they looked similar, and suspicious) and burning the cabin to the ground (with now-conflicting reports as to whether or not Dorner attempted to escape out the back of the cabin before it burned to the ground). And honestly, "re-examining" the investigation that led to Dorner's firing, doesn't do them any favors either, unfortunately.


#65

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Yeah, this is ether going to lead to a cleaning of house in LA and the Marshals or a confirmation of that fact that they are allowed to do anything they want. If it's the latter, your going to see a lot more of this is the future.


#66

Espy

Espy

It's not much of a conspiracy to think it's possible a bunch of super pissed off cops who are part of a police force known for abusing power might get really angry and just decide to let this guy die in a fire. I mean, it's not a terribly crazy idea is it? I'm not saying we should string these guys up but the whole thing is crazy enough to warrant a reasonable investigation.


#67

Zappit

Zappit

Guy brought it all on himself. He targets and kills two innocent civilians, two police officers, and makes it very clear he's waging a war and terror campaign against the police.

Are we surprised he was pushed back in? He was as trigger happy as the LAPD, opening fire when a cop was in sight. I don't doubt he came out armed trying to escape, and the police shot at him, forcing him back into the burning house.

The LAPD may not have been their best, but keep in mind that they were scared. This guy was armed to the teeth, with police and military training, no regard for his safety or anyone around him, and he wanted to murder cops and their families. He was a very real boogeyman who could hide from the police and seemingly move undetected. When every cop is fearing for the lives of their loved ones, that's justifiable reasoning that you do everything to end his threat even if the outcome is ugly.

This type of criminal is very rare in America. There just aren't people who specifically target cops and their families, and as such, there's really no way for a department to prepare in case their own people are being hunted.

Dorner may have been unjustly fired, but he had options - lawsuits, talking to the media - but he chose to pick up a weapon and take out as many people as he could without getting caught. He didn't just throw away his credibility and sympathy with those actions, he threw away his very humanity. If he's gone, all the better.


#68

Shakey

Shakey

Zappit said:
The LAPD may not have been their best, but keep in mind that they were scared.
Click to expand...
The problem is they are not allowed to be scared. If they are, they're not being objective and they need to pass it on to another entity.

I'm not defending the guy, but the lapd fucked up and I hope there is enough spotlight in to this subject to have something happen. I doubt it though.


#69

WasabiPoptart

WasabiPoptart

Now the story is that there was no body at the cabin or it hasn't been positively identified.


#70

GasBandit

GasBandit

Zappit said:
The LAPD may not have been their best, but keep in mind that they were scared.
Click to expand...
Yes, take pity on the poor, defenseless 10,023 LAPD officers who have cowered helplessly beneath this monster's reign of terror, unable to think (or shoot) straight for the fear. I'm pretty sure the decision to make sure Dorner ended up DOA was made before today. Perhaps he deserved death, but it's not the place of the LAPD to sentence him when they have him surrounded in a cabin - and that's a critical question of authority that should shake every American to their core. Did they even bother with SWAT? Tear gas? Flashbangs? Or did they go right for the petrol and flares?


#71

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

It's been abundantly clear from Day 1 that they were more concerned with silencing Dorner than bringing him to justice... and whether or not he deserved death was for the people to decide, not the LAPD.


#72

WasabiPoptart

WasabiPoptart

No body recovered. LAPD says he's still on the loose.


#73

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

WasabiPoptart said:
No body recovered. LAPD says he's still on the loose.
Click to expand...
They haven't searched the fire site yet. It's too hot to go into, so they likely aren't going to look until the morning.

EDIT: They found a body in the cabin. They're going to need to do DNA and dental exam to know for sure but it's likely him.


#74

Bubble181

Bubble181

Forcing someone back inside a burning building is murder or manslaughter; no matter what. I don't care if Rambo comes out armed with twin AK47s and an Apache helicopter in his pocket. No doubt the guy's a copkiller and deserved to be given the maximum penalty possible (be it life in prison or death sentence, as the local laws may dictate). But a police force that decides to play judge, jury and executioner is the end of all democracy and rule of law. It's a private militia. I do hope there's a decent investigation into this - preferably by people who aren't affected or involved in any way.

Y'know, when GasBandit and Charlie AGREE, the cops are really messing up.


#75

TommiR

TommiR

I don't know, I can sort of understand why the chase might have ended this way. While it would be an exaggeration to say that getting shot at is an occupational hazard for police officers, they should realise that there is a distinct possibility of it happening, and be prepared for it.

But this guy went after one of their families. I imagine that is a very different thing for quite many people, and not only cops. And as Dorner made sure this thing and his allegations got widely publicized, we may well hear from several copycats doing similar things in the future. I imagine that in a country the size of the US there are many people who are not quite right in the head, who are in desperate curcumstances with nothing to lose, who have beef with law enforcement, who want their fifteen minutes of fame, and who have easy access to high-powered guns. And now they have an example.

Assuming the cabin didn't catch fire entirely by accident, then perhaps one of the best (and one of the very few) ways cops can discourage such copycats from coming after them or their families in the future would be to set an example of their own, to show that things don't really turn out very well for people who do those things. In fact, things might turn out quite nasty for those people, ifyouknowwhatImean ;) It's not right and it certainly isn't legal, but I can sympathise with the way of thinking, all things considered. They needed to nip this shit in the bud, pour encourager les autres.

This is assuming the body will be identified as Dorner. If it wasn't him... ouch.


#76

Dave

Dave

I can see Dorner setting the fire himself just because of the reaction this garnered. He had a shit-ton of time to set this up. He was too smart to just get caught like this, in my opinion.


#77

Bubble181

Bubble181

TommiR said:
I don't know, I can sort of understand why the chase might have ended this way. While it would be an exaggeration to say that getting shot at is an occupational hazard for police officers, they should realise that there is a distinct possibility of it happening, and be prepared for it.

But this guy went after one of their families. I imagine that is a very different thing for quite many people, and not only cops. And as Dorner made sure this thing and his allegations got widely publicized, we may well hear from several copycats doing similar things in the future. I imagine that in a country the size of the US there are many people who are not quite right in the head, who are in desperate curcumstances with nothing to lose, who have beef with law enforcement, who want their fifteen minutes of fame, and who have easy access to high-powered guns. And now they have an example.

Assuming the cabin didn't catch fire entirely by accident, then perhaps one of the best (and one of the very few) ways cops can discourage such copycats from coming after them or their families in the future would be to set an example of their own, to show that things don't really turn out very well for people who do those things. In fact, things might turn out quite nasty for those people, ifyouknowwhatImean ;) It's not right and it certainly isn't legal, but I can sympathise with the way of thinking, all things considered. They needed to nip this shit in the bud, pour encourager les autres.

This is assuming the body will be identified as Dorner. If it wasn't him... ouch.
Click to expand...
This is the exact same reasoning Saddam Hussein used to justify gassing a village of Kurds. Deterence by overwhelming retributionary force is perhaps udnerstandable, it's also against the very core of our modern, Western society.


#78

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

also how many times do I have to remind everyone that the Death Penalty doesn't fucking work


#79

Espy

Espy

Dave said:
I can see Dorner setting the fire himself just because of the reaction this garnered. He had a shit-ton of time to set this up. He was too smart to just get caught like this, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Now who is the conspiracy nut? :p

I'm just giving you shit, but seriously, this whole thing is a mess. I'm not saying it could have ended any other way that wasn't messy, just that it's a stupid mess. I have no idea what happened and honestly, after reading several news reports it sounds like there is still tons of confusion so I'm going to wait to hear how it all plays out.


#80

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
also how many times do I have to remind everyone that the Death Penalty doesn't fucking work
Click to expand...
It works for the killer in question.[DOUBLEPOST=1360765748][/DOUBLEPOST]
AshburnerX said:
It's been abundantly clear from Day 1 that they were more concerned with silencing Dorner than bringing him to justice... and whether or not he deserved death was for the people to decide, not the LAPD.
Click to expand...
When a suspect shoots on sight, there is no way to bring him in alive. Once he shoots 4 and kills 2 cops... fill in the rest.


#81

Bubble181

Bubble181

sixpackshaker said:
When a suspect shoots on sight, there is no way to bring him in alive. Once he shoots 4 and kills 2 cops... fill in the rest.
Click to expand...
Sure there is. From tranquilizer darts over starving out, from flashbangs over teargas to rubber bullets. No, not all of those work as well as they should, yes, some of them can be lethal, and no, not all of those are applicable in all situations. Claiming there's "no alternative" to shooting someone because they shoot back is ridiculous. Heck, I haven't even mentioned "trying to talk to him" or "trying to deplete his ammo reserves".

In all likelihood, this was going to end with his death, one way or another, no matter what tactics or what methods used. Doesn't mean we shouldn't've tried.

(I'm no better - and probably worse - informed than most of you, so if some of these were tried and failed, my apologies.)


#82

Dave

Dave

Bubble181 said:
(I'm no better - and probably worse - informed than most of you, so if some of these were tried and failed, my apologies.)
Click to expand...
I doubt we'll ever know either way. The press was kept well away from the scene. It's okay for the press to go with the military into combat, but not the police into this situation.


#83

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
I can see Dorner setting the fire himself just because of the reaction this garnered. He had a shit-ton of time to set this up. He was too smart to just get caught like this, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
And the police in the video yelling "burn it down!" "get the gas!" were just, what, cheering him on?


#84

Dave

Dave

GasBandit said:
And the police in the video yelling "burn it down!" "get the gas!" were just, what, cheering him on?
Click to expand...
Don't know. I realize what you'll say about this, but we don't know the actual context of what was happening. Not giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm also not saying they did this on purpose. Yet.


#85

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
Don't know. I realize what you'll say about this, but we don't know the actual context of what was happening. Not giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm also not saying they did this on purpose. Yet.
Click to expand...
While I realize they were not the same organizations, the seemed upholding of precedents set by Waco and Ruby Ridge leave me very dubious of the conduct of law enforcement here.


#86

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

TommiR said:
perhaps one of the best (and one of the very few) ways cops can discourage such copycats from coming after them or their families in the future would be to set an example of their own, to show that things don't really turn out very well for people who do those things. In fact, things might turn out quite nasty for those people, ifyouknowwhatImean ;) It's not right and it certainly isn't legal, but I can sympathise with the way of thinking, all things considered. They needed to nip this shit in the bud, pour encourager les autres.
Click to expand...
I'm just going to point out that when other people in LA do this kind of thing, they call them a gang. Or vigilante-ism. Or both.


#87

fade

fade

The truth is that he was taking the blame on himself so that no one would suspect LA's new tough-on-crime, clean-faced DA.


#88

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

It does sound like an outside view of a James Ellroy novel/script.


#89

Gared

Gared

Actually, I find myself to be a lot less upset by the end-game on this than I think I probably should be. I don't see Dorner letting the cops take him in alive, and I do see them at least running the risk of losing more officers or at least having several more wounded officers if they tried a more traditional extraction. I'm not saying that I think anyone who has shot an officer should be killed rather than arrested, but I really don't see how the LAPD, or any agency, could have reached a different end to this event without a greater than normal danger to their officers.


#90

Chippy

Chippy

I can't read the Reddit threads about this. Just filled with people treating Dorner like some Joker-like genius that did what he had to do against the evil, theist, cat-hating LAPD.

Don't get me wrong. Fuck the LAPD, but the dude murdered 4 people. He's not a hero. He's a mad dog that pissed off a bunch of other mad dogs.


#91

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Reddit is terrible and wrong about everything always and ever


#92

Dave

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Reddit is terrible and wrong about everything always and ever
Click to expand...
Not always, but it does seem to be fringe on a lot of things.


#93

Gared

Gared

Hm. I don't see much in the way of fringe opinions on reddit at all anymore. Of course, that may have something to do with the fact that I only have 9 subscribed sub-reddits, and none of them are hugely popular (AskCulinary, Aww, Blacksmithing, Charcuterie, Cooking, Mead, Path of Exile, Recipes, and Smoking). I couldn't take all of the insane and inane bullshit on the major subs.


#94

GasBandit

GasBandit

Gared said:
Hm. I don't see much in the way of fringe opinions on reddit at all anymore. Of course, that may have something to do with the fact that I only have 9 subscribed sub-reddits, and none of them are hugely popular (AskCulinary, Aww, Blacksmithing, Charcuterie, Cooking, Mead, Path of Exile, Recipes, and Smoking). I couldn't take all of the insane and inane bullshit on the major subs.
Click to expand...
I believe it was Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka who said, "The internet may not make you stupid, but it certainly makes your stupidity infinitely more accessible to everyone."


#95

Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

Hmmm.... I'm going to be completely honest here. If I was on a scene like this, where a suspect (maybe not even the right one) had exchanged fire with officers, downing 2 of my coworkers, possibly friends of mine, and my adrenaline was up?

I DOUBT I would have shot the exterior gas/propane tank to the cabin. And I DOUBT that I would have said anything like was heard in that video.

But I definitely would have been thinking it, if only for a short moment.

Yes, getting shot at is a possibility in this job. Yes, I signed on knowing that it was a possibility. That doesn't mean that I, or any other officer, am immune from the psychological effects of it. Seeing something on paper is one thing, knowing it intellectually is one thing - hell, knowing it in your heart is one thing... but until you hear the crack of a round before you heard the report of the weapon, you are NOT going to know how you'll react.

Adrenaline is funny stuff - it can make you a little loopy, if you get enough of it all at once, with a cognitive dissonance effect not unlike being slightly drunk, only without the sensory impairment. Get a large shot of adrenaline from a situation that you honestly don't know if you're going to survive, then come talk to me about being professional, or being prepared. You DON'T KNOW until it happens to you, and no amount of training - be it with blanks, paintballs, simunition rounds, whatever - will TOTALLY prepare you for that crack-hiss.


As for the "advanced tactics" commentary... well, yes, there is a certain amount of scoffing to be had here, until you realise what we normally deal with. Your average "dirty" doesn't think in terms of ambushes and decoy maneuvers - they think like prey, once the police get involved. They run, they hide, they think only of self-preservation. Which course is going to put enough of an obstacle between them and their pursuers. When they start thinking more critically, they start thinking in terms of "how can I make myself enough of a danger to the public that they're likely to terminate the pursuit for fear of public safety."

But when prey starts thinking like a predator... that's not a scenario we come up on, many times. When you fight with a suspect, even an armed one, that's USUALLY still lizard-brain - fight, instead of flight. They generally DON'T hunt officers. So from that perspective, Dorner's actions WERE advanced tactics.


#96

Gared

Gared

GasBandit said:
I believe it was Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka who said, "The internet may not make you stupid, but it certainly makes your stupidity infinitely more accessible to everyone."
Click to expand...
A point to which I would agree wholeheartedly. I've also found that the internet, and the amount of rampant stupidity within easy access because of it, significantly lowers my stupidity tolerance.


#97

Gared

Gared

Officer_Charon said:
As for the "advanced tactics" commentary... well, yes, there is a certain amount of scoffing to be had here, until you realise what we normally deal with. Your average "dirty" doesn't think in terms of ambushes and decoy maneuvers - they think like prey, once the police get involved. They run, they hide, they think only of self-preservation. Which course is going to put enough of an obstacle between them and their pursuers. When they start thinking more critically, they start thinking in terms of "how can I make myself enough of a danger to the public that they're likely to terminate the pursuit for fear of public safety."

But when prey starts thinking like a predator... that's not a scenario we come up on, many times. When you fight with a suspect, even an armed one, that's USUALLY still lizard-brain - fight, instead of flight. They generally DON'T hunt officers. So from that perspective, Dorner's actions WERE advanced tactics.
Click to expand...
Which is why I opted for the "we should update their training" route, rather than the "morons, ambushes are simple" route. We seem to be seeing more and more retaliation against police officers either as individuals or as whole departments. People who are putting their lives on the line day after day should have at least some training to fall back on if they find themselves in one of these situations.

This time it was the LAPD with a former officer with military training. A few years back it was the Lakewood PD with a career criminal, who ambushed four officers at a coffee shop before their shifts began. Within a year of that incident (before or after I'm not sure), it was the Seattle PD with Christopher Monfort, who had no criminal record at the time, but in addition to shooting several officers and killing one, was linked to fire-bombing cop cars at a city lot.

There's been a lot more press coverage recently (either traditional media or blogs) regarding police misconduct, excessive use of force, no-knock drug raids gone wrong, etc. It's only a matter of time before the next retaliation, and there's no guarantee that the next perpetrator won't be military trained, or even just some survival nut. The police, as departments and as individuals, need to be prepared for that eventuality.[DOUBLEPOST=1360794007][/DOUBLEPOST]Though I do realize there was a fair amount of snark in my original comment.


#98

Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

I took it in the spirit in which it was intended.*grins*


#99

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Also, you can follow the proper tactics and still get killed. It happened to a cop I have second hand knowledge of from Indy. He rolled up to a report of a guy with a Ruger Mini-14, firing it like a pistol. The officer was at least 3 blocks away from the active shooter, and the perp - holding the rifle at arms length just randomly pulled the trigger and hit the cop just above his vest... dead.


#100

jwhouk

jwhouk

In addition:

You can train all you want for situations like this, but real life has a way of throwing you one you never expected.

For instance: you get a call that a person with a gun has just driven into the football complex of the local NFL team, and is apparently suicidal. While reporting to the scene, you get a message that potential suspect may have killed his girlfriend earlier that morning. What do you do?

Or something more akin to my situation: Informed by outgoing staff that there have been a few youth in your living unit who have been disruptive all night, and there has been yelling, and pounding on the doors and walls. You can hear it even as you return to the control booth after you've let the staff out for the evening. Before you can even start planning on what to do, you hear the "K-TSSSSHHH" of breaking glass. What do you do?


#101

GasBandit

GasBandit

jwhouk said:
In addition:

You can train all you want for situations like this, but real life has a way of throwing you one you never expected.

For instance: you get a call that a person with a gun has just driven into the football complex of the local NFL team, and is apparently suicidal. While reporting to the scene, you get a message that potential suspect may have killed his girlfriend earlier that morning. What do you do?

Or something more akin to my situation: Informed by outgoing staff that there have been a few youth in your living unit who have been disruptive all night, and there has been yelling, and pounding on the doors and walls. You can hear it even as you return to the control booth after you've let the staff out for the evening. Before you can even start planning on what to do, you hear the "K-TSSSSHHH" of breaking glass. What do you do?
Click to expand...
Burn it down, obviously.


#102

TommiR

TommiR

Bubble181 said:
This is the exact same reasoning Saddam Hussein used to justify gassing a village of Kurds. Deterence by overwhelming retributionary force is perhaps udnerstandable, it's also against the very core of our modern, Western society.
Click to expand...
SpecialKO said:
I'm just going to point out that when other people in LA do this kind of thing, they call them a gang. Or vigilante-ism. Or both.
Click to expand...
Perhaps the principles might be the same, given that deterrence is a general concept with applications in many fields, including perfectly peaceful and law-abiding ones. For instance, deterrence is a significant factor in legal punishments, where a sentence for a crime is intended, in part, to discourage repeat offenses and to deter others from committing similar crimes. Although the principles might be the same and both cases feature a public body using overwhelming force against private individuals, I'm sure everyone agrees that a judge pronouncing a stiff sentence is not the same thing as gassing the Kurds.

So I would posit that the principle of deterrence in both public and private (e.g. a parent disciplining a child hopefully does not do so out of revenge but because the child needs to learn not to do it again) spheres is valid and acceptable in itself, and is in little to no way in conflict with the principles of Western society at large. What I think matters most is how the principle of deterrence is applied. Saddam applied it in that case by indiscriminately gassing scores of people. Street gangs apply it by killing people who are in their way. Judges apply it through the force of the law, backed by the state's monopoly of organised violence. Parents apply it in a carrot-and-stick approach, and hope that the conditioning will kick in at some point, rendering such means moot.

In the case of Mr. Dorner, like all people he is to be considered innocent until proven guilty in court. I understand that's the law. In practice, the evidence we've seen so far gives a high likelyhood that he was indeed guilty of the crimes he is suspected of having committed. A person who is thought to have been Mr. Dorner died in a fire on Tuesday (have they already determined the cause of death?) which began during a shoot-out with the police, a shoot-out in which one officer also died.

This was not of course the best outcome. In the best case they would have caught him alive to stand before trial. After a lengthy process featuring several trials and appeals, he might have received the death penalty. Then some more time for his application for pardon to be processed, and if, by the time of the application's rejection, California had gotten over their moratorium on executions, then he would have died. If not, then he would have lived out the rest of his days on the government dole. But we would have heard his side of the LAPD issue and could have verified if his claims of wrong-doing truly had any basis:

I have no idea whether, as Dorner alleges, the LAPD falsely accused Dorner and retaliated against him for reporting the abuse of a civilian. But I know many black officers who received nothing but vicious retaliation for trying to report the same kind of abuse. [...] It is important to acknowledge this history if we are to understand and overcome the disturbing support for Dorner's manifesto from the black community on the Internet and on black radio, and if we are to ever free ourselves from the toxic wake of the LAPD's past.

Dorner is absolutely wrong when he states in the manifesto that "the department has not changed since the Rampart and Rodney King days." It's not surprising that someone who feels he has unjustly lost everything would want to lash out, but in this case he is demonstrably wrong. The LAPD has definitely changed at the top and is currently in the process of changing its old guard culture. We're not done; there are decades still of work to be done to change the institutional culture, but since Judge Gary Feess took the reins of the LAPD with the consent decree, since William Bratton and Charlie Beck, respectively, were appointed chief, and since John Mack, Andrea Ordin and Rick Drooyan have headed the police commission, the LAPD has completely changed direction at the top, from the brutal, shock and awe, we-are-above-the-law Blue Grip cowboys of the Darryl Gates era to the constitutional policing, public-trust-seeking era of Bill Bratton and Charlie Beck. The good guys are now in charge of LAPD culture; it is a huge change and the right beginning to real police reform.
Click to expand...
That quote was by Constance L. Rice, Civil rights lawyer, Los Angeles.

Personally, I don't find it in me to shed too many tears when a person who has done what Dorner is thought to have done dies in a fire. And who knows, perhaps the deterrence value of this outcome (whether the fire was intentional or accidental doesn't matter in this, it's the perception and the suspicion that matters) will help out in some small measure in preventing these kinds of things from recurring too often.


#103

Bubble181

Bubble181

TommiR said:
So I would posit that the principle of deterrence in both public and private (e.g. a parent disciplining a child hopefully does not do so out of revenge but because the child needs to learn not to do it again) spheres is valid and acceptable in itself, and is in little to no way in conflict with the principles of Western society at large. What I think matters most is how the principle of deterrence is applied.
Click to expand...
And you'd be wrong. I'm sorry, but you're wrong. What "matters most" isn't how it's applied, it's by whom it's applied. A judge is appointed/elected/etc (depending on country). A parent's a parent. A general in a combat situation is a commander in armed forces. Police Captain Jack Bauer was not elected, or appointed, or annointed; he has not made a pledge, he isn't bound by law.
The moment you allow anyone outside of the Judicial Power (and possibly executive power in the case of pardons/grace/etc) to play judge against a civilian, you're...off the rails. Period.
If Dorner was killed during an unavoidable shoot-out, well, so be it. Just like any other criminal, he can get killed or wounded during arrest. We don't know yet and probably won't. Xhat bothers me enormously is the apparent lack of outcry over this. People, this is the polcie becoming a militia! This is the police saying "screw the powers, we're taking matters into our own hands". Deterrence-by-going-outside-the-law-yourself is Deadpool. It's Batman. It's not democratic, it'sn ot acceptable on any level. Because tomorrow, they shoot a known child molester who "got off too easy". Day after, they shoot a communist for spouting dangerous ideas. Day after, they shoot someone who pirated Call of Modern Warfare 3. Who's to stop them?


#104

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

What I quoted from you TommiR wasn't your description of deterrence by judicial sentence, it was your implication towards the necessity of extrajudicial killing as that method of deterrence.

That's gang behavior. That's specifically something that law enforcement is supposed to prevent and not partake in of themselves.

Now in this case? I hope that the SB Sheriffs had no choice in the matter without unacceptably compromising their own safety as opposed to your obliquely referenced "need to set an example".


#105

TommiR

TommiR

Bubble181 said:
And you'd be wrong. I'm sorry, but you're wrong. What "matters most" isn't how it's applied, it's by whom it's applied. A judge is appointed/elected/etc (depending on country). A parent's a parent. A general in a combat situation is a commander in armed forces. Police Captain Jack Bauer was not elected, or appointed, or annointed; he has not made a pledge, he isn't bound by law.
Click to expand...
Good point. Though I think I did mention previously that, if the officers intentionally set fire to the cabin to kill Dorner, then they were operating outside the bounds of the law. I can grant you that, legally speaking, it is not the how that is important, but whether the person who does it has the authorisation under the law to perform that action. It is not exactly what you said, but I think it's what you meant. Would you agree with this?

Other than that, I think my other points still stand.

The moment you allow anyone outside of the Judicial Power (and possibly executive power in the case of pardons/grace/etc) to play judge against a civilian, you're...off the rails. Period.
Click to expand...
Okay. I think I can understand what you are saying, but I feel it needs more clarification.

For instance I'm not entirely sure which part of the legislation gives a parent or legal guardian the ability to set rules and restrictions (legislative), enforce compliance (executive), and, within limits, to discipline misbehavior (judicial) of another human being (their child). But I'm sure it's in there somewhere, as otherwise a parent who didn't let their child go out and play late in the evening might be guilty of something in the direction of kidnapping (heh, kid-napping...). And I understand it's only a parent, and no-one else, who has these rights regarding their children.

Perhaps a clearer example would be the authority of a police officer (in most jurisdictions I believe) to place a person in temporary detention, if they feel there is sufficient cause. Now, depriving a person of their freedom of liberty violates a whole bunch of rights, even if it is done only temporarily. Yet the police can do that through proper procedure, and if the suspicion falls through, they just let you go. No need for anyone from the judicial branch of government to get involved in anything, as long as any laws aren't broken.

So, I would challenge your assertion, and believe an improved one would be something along the lines of "The moment you allow anyone outside of the Judicial Power (and possibly executive power in the case of pardons/grace/etc) to play judge against a civilian, without them being authorised to do so under the law, you're...off the rails. Period."

I believe the addition is important, as the law can and does give people the right to interfere with your own rights, guaranteed by other laws, without any participation by the Judiciary, which I believe to be a more accurate description of the state of affairs. And it does fit in with what I said above, I believe.

If Dorner was killed during an unavoidable shoot-out, well, so be it. Just like any other criminal, he can get killed or wounded during arrest. We don't know yet and probably won't. Xhat bothers me enormously is the apparent lack of outcry over this. People, this is the polcie becoming a militia! This is the police saying "screw the powers, we're taking matters into our own hands". Deterrence-by-going-outside-the-law-yourself is Deadpool. It's Batman. It's not democratic, it'sn ot acceptable on any level. Because tomorrow, they shoot a known child molester who "got off too easy". Day after, they shoot a communist for spouting dangerous ideas. Day after, they shoot someone who pirated Call of Modern Warfare 3. Who's to stop them?
Click to expand...
So... deterrence-by-going-outside the law is what we need, though not what we deserve? ;)

Seriously though, I don't think that if a handful of officers stepped outside of their mandate for a minute and offed a multiple homicide suspect, it necessarily means arbitrary executions for online pirates will follow.

SpecialKO said:
What I quoted from you TommiR wasn't your description of deterrence by judicial sentence, it was your implication towards the necessity of extrajudicial killing as that method of deterrence.

That's gang behavior. That's specifically something that law enforcement is supposed to prevent and not partake in of themselves.

Now in this case? I hope that the SB Sheriffs had no choice in the matter without unacceptably compromising their own safety as opposed to your obliquely referenced "need to set an example".
Click to expand...
Oh I hope so too, that it was an accident, a bust that just went bad. And I think that in my previous post I laid out my take on what would have been the best way this might have reasonably ended, where everyone present at the cottage site remained alive.

So I hope the fire was an accident. If it wasn't... well, as I said, I think I can sort of understand where the officers might be coming from, and I sympathise.


#106

Bubble181

Bubble181

TommiR said:
For instance I'm not entirely sure which part of the legislation gives a parent or legal guardian the ability to set rules and restrictions (legislative), enforce compliance (executive), and, within limits, to discipline misbehavior (judicial) of another human being (their child). But I'm sure it's in there somewhere, as otherwise a parent who didn't let their child go out and play late in the evening might be guilty of something in the direction of kidnapping (heh, kid-napping...). And I understand it's only a parent, and no-one else, who has these rights regarding their children.
Click to expand...
A parent is legal guardian of a child until they are of age, or longer/shorter as prescribed by law (for mentally disabled, for people whose parents are in jail and ask for early adulthood, etc etc). Legally, they are responsible for the well-being and adherence to laws, of the child, and as such are granted specific legal duties and permissions. You're not kidnapping someone for grounding them, as it's a disciplinary measure. You're not allowed to break both your kids' arms because they got home late, because it's excessive force.

Perhaps a clearer example would be the authority of a police officer (in most jurisdictions I believe) to place a person in temporary detention, if they feel there is sufficient cause. Now, depriving a person of their freedom of liberty violates a whole bunch of rights, even if it is done only temporarily. Yet the police can do that through proper procedure, and if the suspicion falls through, they just let you go. No need for anyone from the judicial branch of government to get involved in anything, as long as any laws aren't broken.

So, I would challenge your assertion, and believe an improved one would be something along the lines of "The moment you allow anyone outside of the Judicial Power (and possibly executive power in the case of pardons/grace/etc) to play judge against a civilian, without them being authorised to do so under the law, you're...off the rails. Period."
Click to expand...
Well, yes; a police officer can take someone into custody, because he's allowed to by law. There's no need for someone of any of the three powers to jump in, because at that moment, he's following the law as laid down by the legislative branch and interpreted by the executive branch. That police officer is acting within the law, but he's very explicitly not saying someone is guilty, and he cannot be sentenced purely by him to anything. A short detention to ensure safety/prevent escape/etc. In judiciary systems such as Belgium or France, any other incarceration (yes, awaiting trial, etc) are decided upon only by the judge. in the US the system is somewhat different, but it's still someone else, specifically apointed for the job, looking at the case, who decides whether or not to keep someone in jail.

I agree with what you're saying, but strictly speaking, the Law can't proclaim someone judge over someone else - and certainly not judge and jury, without possibility of a higher appeal (with the exception of very specific instances such as spies and deserters in wartime).

It appeared to me (and apparently KO as well) that you meant that a police officer going rogue/using excessive force/killing someone without need/etc is, in certain cases, acceptable, as a deterrent. With which I don't agree, since any deterrence it would offer would be....what? "If you make me mad, I'll break my own rules and hurt you, but as long as you're not too bad, we'll stick to our rules"? That's ridiculous. You need to be able to deter them while staying inside the lines of the law.

Of course, in a best-case scenario, all of what I said is not applicable to this situation. I'm saying that I think it's a serious problem, under the hypothesis that a cop deliberately killed this guy.


#107

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

This man was ACTIVELY SHOOTING at cops! He dies, end of story.


#108

GasBandit

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
This man was ACTIVELY SHOOTING at cops! He dies, end of story.
Click to expand...
The decision for him to die was made well in advance of that firefight. They didn't kill him in self defense, they premeditatively sentenced him. You can ask the people they mistakenly thought were him - once they're done picking the lead out.


#109

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

GasBandit said:
The decision for him to die was made well in advance of that firefight. They didn't kill him in self defense, they premeditatively sentenced him. You can ask the people they mistakenly thought were him - once they're done picking the lead out.
Click to expand...
He decided his fate when he started shooting first.

Just make him any other job holder, like if he worked for the post office. If he had a history of shooting cops first, he will get shot eventually.


#110

GasBandit

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
He decided his fate when he started shooting first.
Click to expand...
You're fooling yourself if you think the LAPD was ever going to let him get before a judge. Even if by some miracle he managed to be taken alive, I'm sure he'd suffer a tragic accidental fall down some stairs onto a pile of bullets before his court date.


#111

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I wasn't aware it was codified into law that murdering a police officer supercedes the Constitution, huh


#112

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

GasBandit said:
You're fooling yourself if you think the LAPD was ever going to let him get before a judge. Even if by some miracle he managed to be taken alive, I'm sure he'd suffer a tragic accidental fall down some stairs onto a pile of bullets before his court date.
Click to expand...
He's just another delusional man that went postal.[DOUBLEPOST=1360866000][/DOUBLEPOST]
Charlie Don't Surf said:
I wasn't aware it was codified into law that murdering a police officer supercedes the Constitution, huh
Click to expand...
There is if he's FUCKING SHOOTING AT YOU!


#113

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

sixpackshaker said:
There is if he's FUCKING SHOOTING AT YOU!
Click to expand...
The news reports make it sound like the shooting had mostly stopped before the place went up in flames. So, in point of fact, we don't yet know the actual chain of events, and that makes a difference.

Determining that it was a righteous shoot should be up to the investigators.


#114

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Also remember that LAPD had nothing to do with this guys death, they were not even there.


#115

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I am using LAPD way too liberally in this thread, and I apologize, but I am also pretty certain other law enforcements follow their lead


#116

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I am using LAPD way too liberally in this thread, and I apologize, but I am also pretty certain other law enforcements follow their lead
Click to expand...
Oh, snap. :awesome:


#117

GasBandit

GasBandit

I'm not trying to say the guy was not deserving of death. I am trying to say that it is the place of the judiciary only to hand that down. Make no mistake, law enforcement decided this man was to die at their hands before the shooting even started. And the complacency of area residents in regards to his execution at the hands of law enforcement is more than a little ironic given their stance on the death penalty.


#118

fade

fade

Rural California is about as different from urban California as Texas is.


#119

BananaHands

BananaHands

GasBandit said:
I am trying to say that it is the place of the judiciary only to hand that down. Make no mistake, law enforcement decided this man was to die at their hands before the shooting even started.
Click to expand...
I think the fact that two women were shot up by the LAPD with no warning on the 8th supports this.


#120

BananaHands

BananaHands

Also with how many bullets were fired at this guy and how he was so badly he was burned (to the point where they need to do DNA tests) by the cabin fire, how did his drivers license survive?


#121

Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

Sixpack, I get what you're trying to say here.

However, Gas has the right of it here. There is a HUMONGOUS difference between treating someone as "armed and highly dangerous" and saying "Kill on sight."

In the one situation, you are prepared for a shootout, you are expecting one.

In the other, you are instigating it.

We can't overlook the confines of the law simply because they're inconvenient, or we don't think they should apply. Unless the rounds are ACTIVELY FLYING at you, or there is a weapon drawn or being drawn on you (or another), lethal force is not an option. Just because the dirty has killed in the past does NOT give carte blanche to overlook the force continuum for a pre-emptive strike. We're not military, we are police. We HAVE to follow the law, or else there is no point in HAVING a law.

I should LIKE to think that the poor innocents injured were the result of a highly nervous officer with a hair trigger seeing what he BELIEVED to be a threatening motion (which, if you're looking for one, ANY rapid motion's going to have you seeing a threat) and responding before verifying his target.

But I have a nasty feeling that Gas is right on that part, too.


Also, Charlie - not all LEOs take our lead from the LAPD... our last chief here was run out of town after trying to have our department emulate them, and ruffling too many feathers. We don't work like that, down here.


#122

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

BananaHands said:
Also with how many bullets were fired at this guy and how he was so badly he was burned (to the point where they need to do DNA tests) by the cabin fire, how did his drivers license survive?
Click to expand...
The third copy of his drivers license that they've found so far. There are so many shenanigans going on here it's not even funny. They aren't even trying anymore.


#123

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

GasBandit said:
I'm not trying to say the guy was not deserving of death. I am trying to say that it is the place of the judiciary only to hand that down. Make no mistake, law enforcement decided this man was to die at their hands before the shooting even started. And the complacency of area residents in regards to his execution at the hands of law enforcement is more than a little ironic given their stance on the death penalty.
Click to expand...
They did not decide to kill him before the shooting started. He was fired nearly 10 years ago.[DOUBLEPOST=1360877224][/DOUBLEPOST]
AshburnerX said:
The third copy of his drivers license that they've found so far. There are so many shenanigans going on here it's not even funny. They aren't even trying anymore.
Click to expand...
I read that they found his police credentials in one place and his DL on his person.

Also remember the Apollo 1 fire. That thing burned like a cutting torch for several minutes. The fire burned up the astronauts and their suits, but did not burn the typing paper notebooks.


#124

GasBandit

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
They did not decide to kill him before the shooting started. He was fired nearly 10 years ago.
Click to expand...
I meant this specific instance of gunplay. Just because you shoot somebody weeks ago does not mean the police may shoot you on sight at every opportunity later. I think you knew what I meant, too.


#125

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

GasBandit said:
I meant this specific instance of gunplay. Just because you shoot somebody weeks ago does not mean the police may shoot you on sight at every opportunity later. I think you knew what I meant, too.
Click to expand...
Then how did the Park Policeman die if he was going to murder the guy in the street at the first chance?


#126

GasBandit

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
Then how did the Park Policeman die if he was going to murder the guy in the street at the first chance?
Click to expand...
Let's be specific, are you talking about the events of tuesday? Timeline:

_ 12:20 p.m., Tuesday, Feb. 12: Police are summoned after a man resembling Dorner steals a vehicle in the San Bernardino Mountains. The vehicle is quickly located on Highway 38. The suspect abandons the vehicle, runs into the forest and barricades himself inside a cabin.
_ 12:40 p.m., Tuesday, Feb. 12: State Fish and Wildlife wardens are involved in a shootout with the suspect. Two San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies are wounded in a second exchange of gunfire.
_ 4:30 p.m., Tuesday, Feb. 12: Police surround the cabin where the suspect is holed up and gunfire erupts before a blaze engulfs the structure and law enforcement officers wait for the fire to burn out.
_ 4:50 p.m., Tuesday, Feb. 12: A San Bernardino County sheriff's spokeswoman confirms one of the two wounded deputies has died, and the other is in surgery and expected to survive.
Click to expand...
Are you talking about the deputies hit in the 12:40p gunfight? Because I'm talking about how 4 hours later, all of a sudden a cabin surrounded by police is suddenly on fire while police are recorded yelling "Burn it down! Get the gas!"

That's not how that's supposed to work, FYI.


#127

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

SWAT officers surrounding the cabin were under a "constant barrage of gunfire," one source said. “He put himself in that position. There weren’t a lot of options.” Hoping to end the standoff, law enforcement authorities first lobbed "traditional" tear gas into the cabin. When that did not work, they opted to use CS gas canisters, which are known in law enforcement parlance as incendiary tear gas. These canisters have significantly more chance of starting a fire. This gas can cause humans to have burning eyes and start to feel as if they are being starved for oxygen. It is often used to drive barricaded individuals out.


#128

Dave

Dave

But they also knew that these sorts of things wouldn't work because Dorner had purchased SCUBA gear specifically to combat gas attacks.


#129

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Dave said:
But they also knew that these sorts of things wouldn't work because Dorner had purchased SCUBA gear specifically to combat gas attacks.
Click to expand...
He likely bought the SCUBA to steal that boat.


#130

Dave

Dave

sixpackshaker said:
He likely bought the SCUBA to steal that boat.
Click to expand...
Interesting thing, though. It works just as well for gas attacks. Something you learn about in the military.

Truth is, nobody really knows what it was to be used for, just what it could have been.


#131

GasBandit

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
SWAT officers surrounding the cabin were under a "constant barrage of gunfire," one source said. “He put himself in that position. There weren’t a lot of options.” Hoping to end the standoff, law enforcement authorities first lobbed "traditional" tear gas into the cabin. When that did not work, they opted to use CS gas canisters, which are known in law enforcement parlance as incendiary tear gas. These canisters have significantly more chance of starting a fire. This gas can cause humans to have burning eyes and start to feel as if they are being starved for oxygen. It is often used to drive barricaded individuals out.
Click to expand...

If he was barricaded in a cabin putting out a "constant barrage of gunfire" I think he'd run out of ammo pretty quickly, assuming he was limited to what ammo he could carry on his person. This isn't a hollywood movie. Once he was driven to ground, time was on the police's side. They could have waited him out, continued lobbing tear gas once every 15 mins or so til his scuba gear went empty. Or any other of a near limitless number of things we've seen police do in armed standoffs, when they want to take the suspect alive. These guys obviously didn't.


#132

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

GasBandit said:
If he was barricaded in a cabin putting out a "constant barrage of gunfire" I think he'd run out of ammo pretty quickly, assuming he was limited to what ammo he could carry on his person. This isn't a hollywood movie. Once he was driven to ground, time was on the police's side. They could have waited him out, continued lobbing tear gas once every 15 mins or so til his scuba gear went empty. Or any other of a near limitless number of things we've seen police do in armed standoffs, when they want to take the suspect alive. These guys obviously didn't.
Click to expand...
Why do that when you can just pull a Waco?


#133

GasBandit

GasBandit

CrimsonSoul said:
Why do that when you can just pull a Waco?
Click to expand...
Yeah, who needs due process and constitutionality? Dystopia ahoy!


#134

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

So they should just keep cops in the line of fire until he runs out of bullets, check. Their widows will be thankful.


#135

GasBandit

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
So they should just keep cops in the line of fire until he runs out of bullets, check. Their widows will be thankful.
Click to expand...
If only there was a special team of police that used equipment such as armored vehicles specifically designed for situations such as this. It's too bad the cabin wasn't completely surrounded for 4 hours, or they might have had time to call in such a special team.


#136

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

Now they aren't sure if they are going to pay the tipsters the 1M reward because it said "tips leading to his capture" and he wasn't captured he was killed. Oh California you funny.


#137

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

CrimsonSoul said:
Now they aren't sure if they are going to pay the tipsters the 1M reward because it said "tips leading to his capture" and he wasn't captured he was killed. Oh California you funny.
Click to expand...
That will never stand up in court. They officially went there to capture him. The fact that he was killed ether through their own malicious intent or incompetence shouldn't be a disqualifying factor in the good faith of the tipsters. They'll get paid, even if this needs to go to appeal.


#138

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Cops don't get the reward. Just the people that call the suspect in.


#139

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

sixpackshaker said:
Cops don't get the reward. Just the people that call the suspect in.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I worded it weird. I meant it's not the fault of the tipsters that the cops killed the guy.


#140

Dave

Dave

Actually the wording said that the tips had to lead to a conviction. Same thing, but even if he'd have been captured and then suicided, they still wouldn't have gotten paid.


#141

Frank

Frank

Dave said:
Actually the wording said that the tips had to lead to a conviction. Same thing, but even if he'd have been captured and then suicided, they still wouldn't have gotten paid.
Click to expand...
Yup, those rewards are always worded like that.


#142

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Well no wonder they offered such a big reward then, knowing ahead of time he'd never make it to trial.


#143

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Ravenpoe said:
Well no wonder they offered such a big reward then, knowing ahead of time he'd never make it to trial.
Click to expand...
Is LAPD psychic?


#144

GasBandit

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
Is LAPD psychic?
Click to expand...
No, murderous. Haven't you been paying attention?


#145

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

GasBandit said:
No, murderous. Haven't you been paying attention?
Click to expand...
But it ended in a different county...

But I guess the rest of you can keep living LeQuack's dreams.


#146

GasBandit

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
But it ended in a different county...

But I guess the rest of you can keep living LeQuack's dreams.
Click to expand...
Arrest isn't conviction. He'd have ended up in the LAPD's hands at some point before trial, where...

GasBandit said:
I'm sure he'd suffer a tragic accidental fall down some stairs onto a pile of bullets before his court date.
Click to expand...


#147

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

sixpackshaker, if there was any other department in the country, I wouldn't be so critically... but this is the LAPD. They do this stuff all the time. No other city short of Chicago has a more corrupt police force.


#148

TommiR

TommiR

Bubble181 said:
A parent is legal guardian of a child until they are of age, or longer/shorter as prescribed by law
[...]
Well, yes; a police officer can take someone into custody, because he's allowed to by law.
Click to expand...
I think we're mostly in agreement, in the sense that the law can give authorisation for people to have extraordinary rights over other people (such as parents vs children, police vs civilians). To note, I feel all that to be quite right and just. However, if we go by the idea that law is something brought into being by mutual agreement, and is separate from morality, then we will need to accept that someday the law might grant greater powers to others over ourselves than we might feel is proper. Such as the right of a Head of State to order lethal force to be used against aiders and abetters of separatist guerillas who are allied with an external enemy with whom the nation is currently at war (I'm talking about Saddam gassing the Kurds).

I agree with what you're saying, but strictly speaking, the Law can't proclaim someone judge over someone else - and certainly not judge and jury, without possibility of a higher appeal (with the exception of very specific instances such as spies and deserters in wartime).
Click to expand...
I think it is unlikely to fully happen, turning police officers into Judge Dredd-type figures or something. But laws can and do change, and I'm not sure it is entirely accurate to say that it can't happen. At least the current legislative apparatus has nothing procedural to prevent it from happening, and I don't see anything conceptually that would make it have a probability of even close to zero. I understand that a constitution-type document usually outlines how such things are to be arranged, and if you can change that, then it is only a question of how far you can go.

It appeared to me (and apparently KO as well) that you meant that a police officer going rogue/using excessive force/killing someone without need/etc is, in certain cases, acceptable, as a deterrent. With which I don't agree, since any deterrence it would offer would be....what? "If you make me mad, I'll break my own rules and hurt you, but as long as you're not too bad, we'll stick to our rules"? That's ridiculous. You need to be able to deter them while staying inside the lines of the law.
Click to expand...
Nah, as I said earlier, deliberately setting fire to the cabin to kill this guy would have been neither right nor legal. I doubt anyone is claiming that is the way this was supposed to go, though opinions may differ on exactly how bad it is. Personally, as I think I mentioned, I'm not shedding too many tears if it actually went down that way, and speculate on whether some good might actually have come out of it. And I imagine the primary deterrent in this case would be directed against going after cops and their families, which I think is far less ridiculous than you make it sound.


#149

Bowielee

Bowielee

Sometimes I seriously wonder if people know what the word deterrent means...

For someone even considering this sort of situation, there is no deterrent that would have prevented this. It's the same reason that the death penalty is not a deterrent. When people are so far gone that they are considering something like this, ramifications are the last thing on their mind. There's no way this guy planned on living through this.


#150

TommiR

TommiR

So no-one wanting to influence law enforcement officers would ever stoop so low as to threaten them or their families?

edit: The deterrence being, if you go after cops or their families, then the consequences for you is not a matter of what can be proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.


#151

tegid

tegid

sixpackshaker said:
But it ended in a different county...

But I guess the rest of you can keep living LeQuack's dreams.
Click to expand...
Seriously? Is also O_Charon living in LeQuack's dreams, or did you just ignore his post?


#152

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

tegid said:
Seriously? Is also O_Charon living in LeQuack's dreams, or did you just ignore his post?
Click to expand...
I hear OC fully endorses the fuck the police movement. Especially from the ladies.


#153

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

tegid said:
Seriously? Is also O_Charon living in LeQuack's dreams, or did you just ignore his post?
Click to expand...
His post had nothing to do with LAPD was going to murder this guy in his jail cell, or LAPD was gunning for him from the start.

His post was along the lines of mine, the suspect keeps shooting, you shoot back. It is just logical tactical sense to fire tear gas into the house.


Top