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Branching from a discussion about sex and consent.

Yes, always.

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after reading the portion of the thread where this is coming from I'll add that I'm throwing my hat in with Gas on this one. I've been with a girl who said no but later told me she wanted me to do it anyway. So I mean it is a thing, but it's a dumb game that's not worth playing. No should always just mean no and result in a full stop.

Really, people just need to be 100% honest and open about what it is they want. We, mostly as I guess Americans, need to kind of get over our hangups about talking about sex especially with our current/potential partners.

No means no. Period. If they say no, that means you back off.

EDIT: To add to this, even if they say no but may later say that they still wanted it, then that's on them, not you. If they say no and you proceed anyway, there are far worse consequences.

phil said:

Yes, always.

edit

after reading the portion of the thread where this is coming from I'll add that I'm throwing my hat in with Gas on this one. I've been with a girl who said no but later told me she wanted me to do it anyway. So I mean it is a thing, but it's a dumb game that's not worth playing. No should always just mean no and result in a full stop.

Really, people just need to be 100% honest and open about what it is they want. We, mostly as I guess Americans, need to kind of get over our hangups about talking about sex especially with our current/potential partners.

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I had a girl back in Tianjin who, after saying no (and we stopped), was like, "WTF, be a man."


?????????????

SOME people say no simply because they want to be conquered, to be taken, it is part of their "thing," and the token resistance they put up at the beginning will dissolve into lovemaking fury once they have been "captured." This is a valid thing and is completely ok between consenting adults.

HOWEVER...much like Extreme Kidnapping, it's hard for the parties involved to simultaneously know that it's all legit AND have the full experience, since once you know it's just a "game," it loses quite a bit of its power. Also, the chance of misinterpretation is uncomfortably high, meaning that it's possible to accidentally get involved with someone who legitimately didn't want this to happen, and that is embarrassing and potentially illegal.

SO: If (s)he says no, it's safest to assume that (s)he means no, and not force the issue. If that person was genuinely turning you down, it's win-win for both...you still get to hang out with that person even though you might not end up making out. Also, if that other person was saying "no" just to be coy, they have nobody to blame but themselves (i.e., if you want A, ask for A, not B and just hope they "figure it out"). If they were one of the thrill-seekers I mention at the start of this post, there are places and times for that sort of thing, and if you want to do it, you go to those places at those times. When you hang out at a taxi stand hoping to catch the bus to thrillsville, you got nobody but yourself to blame when all you get are taxis and no bus. It's not the bus driver's job to "know" you're waiting at the taxi stand.

--Patrick

Yeah, I'd rather err on the side of not really understanding what she wanted than being a rapist.

stienman said:

There's not enough context to answer the question.

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Probably the best answer so far, though I presume there are several automatic assumptions as part of the question (as stated), chief among them that the two participants otherwise do NOT know one another socially and so are relying on "universal" cues rather than shared experience. I answered "Yes, always" even though that answer is not technically correct because those cases where it would be appropriate to "push through the 'No'" all require (in my mind) sufficient preknowledge of the other person, though by that point, why would you need to ask? The trouble comes when you think you know enough about the other person...but end up being wrong.

--Patrick

If no is the safeword, then yes, it always means stop.

If yes is the safeword, shit just gets confusing.

Anonymous said:

If no is the safeword, then yes, it always means stop.

If yes is the safeword, shit just gets confusing.

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I don't know why that got anonymoused... it's not like no one can tell who it is.

Does anyone really want to be with someone who can't be clear about what they want? Saying "no" when meaning "yes" is more trouble than it's worth. In the short term, in the long term, forever. That's a ton of crazy right there.

Wasn't me.

Anyway, if you hear your partner say no, back off. Better safe than sorry.

I refuse to answer on the grounds that this almost as stupid a question as "When did you start beating your wife?" The trap is that the implied question is "Is it ever acceptable to take 'no' as anything other than 'no'?" and that covers a lot more ground than the actual question asked. There are some messed up individuals in this world who want "no" to mean "yes", even to someone with whom they have not communicated that fact beforehand. It's not okay to try to guess who those individuals are, so it's not okay to take "no" as anything but "no", but technically speaking, the "no" was spoken with the intent for it to mean "yes", so it's "meaning" is patently unclear.

I'm with @stienman, if there isn't any context, this question is very vague. If a BDSM couple has an agreed upon safeword, then "no" certainly doesn't mean "no". I may not be into BDSM, but I can recognize that it exists, and that it has a set of rules that allow for all sorts of consensual play that may appear non-consensual on the surface.

Also, a verbal "no" could change into a non-verbal "yes" without any coercion. Picture a married couple. He says "Want to have sex?" She replies "No, I'm feeling really beat." So he offers a backrub (and let's assume he's doing it just because his wife is sore from a long day). She genuinely feels better after getting her muscles massaged, and decides that she wants sex after all. Can she communicate to him that she wants sex without verbally saying it? Of course she can. And he, being her friend and partner, can certainly know that her "no" is not in effect when she's giving him non-verbal communication that her mind has changed.

"No" as the safe word? That seems very problematic.

At any rate, no means no - unless you and your partner have clarified otherwise.

WasabiPoptart said:

"No" as the safe word? That seems very problematic.

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I never said it was a good one.

The option for no meaning no is "yes," and the option for no being able mean things besides no is "no."

Krisken said:

Does anyone really want to be with someone who can't be clear about what they want? Saying "no" when meaning "yes" is more trouble than it's worth. In the short term, in the long term, forever. That's a ton of crazy right there.

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Haha, that reminds me of this:

Fucking A, man.

So, does anybody want to do it?

fade said:

So, does anybody want to do it?

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No.

fade said:

So, does anybody want to do it?

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Pineapple.

fade said:

So, does anybody want to do It?

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Yes, but only if he's willing to do some manscaping, first.

[DOUBLEPOST=1409029332,1409029257][/DOUBLEPOST]

fade said:

So, does anybody want to do It?

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Alternate joke:

Yes, but only with the ground rule of no biting.

Or it could be crowdsourced:
--Patrick

figmentPez said:

Also, a verbal "no" could change into a non-verbal "yes" without any coercion. Picture a married couple. He says "Want to have sex?" She replies "No, I'm feeling really beat." So he offers a backrub (and let's assume he's doing it just because his wife is sore from a long day). She genuinely feels better after getting her muscles massaged, and decides that she wants sex after all. Can she communicate to him that she wants sex without verbally saying it? Of course she can. And he, being her friend and partner, can certainly know that her "no" is not in effect when she's giving him non-verbal communication that her mind has changed.

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This pretty much happened with me last night--though the roles were reverse and sans back rub. I was beat after a 12 hour day at work, coming home, walking the dogs, cooking, cleaning, and doing some grocery shopping. My wife was interested, and I was too tired, so we just cuddled up to go to sleep.

I changed my mind. We didn't have a deep philosophical conversation about whether or not she was coercing me, and I doubt either of us even thought about the fact that I'd said no earlier. We just started making out, and one thing led to another. Some people make things way more complicated than they need to be.

Never have sex with someone who isn't as interested as you.

So married dudes can never have sex?

fade said:

So married dudes can never have sex?

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The root word for 'marriage' is latin for 'i'm too tired'.

drawn_inward said:

The root word for 'marriage' is latin for 'i'm too tired'.

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There's a Louis CK skit for everything!

If someone says no, I'm out. Contextual exceptions apply, obviously, welcome to the postmodern age, where context is everything but it has to specified nonetheless. Fucking postmodernism.

Chad Sexington said:

Fucking postmodernism.

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Only if it doesn't say no!

Just Me said:

Only if it doesn't say no!

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I walked into that. Well done.