There is trouble in Iran

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Chibibar

Denbrought said:
Yes, and it irks me. But eh, that's like you not liking a type of food, personal preferences 'n all.
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I think it is more than that.

It is human nature to do good or at least have idols/leaders. We (the human race) always want to strive to be a better person. Now of course the definition of a "better person" differ in each culture.

Most of the civilize culture believe of helping others regardless of race, creed, religious belief etc etc and do the best as you can (Mother Theresa, Ghandi is a good example)

and some believe that killing other people in the name of their god by blowing yourself up and get 40 virgins after your dead is a good deed which majority of the society doesn't believe in.

BUT, I think it is boils down what you believe. I presume that you don't have any heroes who are dead? if you do, you do give them a "memorial" indirect way, by respecting them for what they did and try to strive similar deeds or you honor them enough to be one of your "ideal" person to become.

If you don't have any dead heroes, then I can totally understand :) my hero is Leonardo Da Vinci since he is an innovator, scientist, scholar, and artist (plus many more) and I do try to be like him in a way that I experiment with everything that is good in life (i.e. I don't go out there and kill people, but I do try to be a good person and help people, write, dabble in art, and learn all I can)
 
Denbrought

Denbrought

I have not one person to look up to, alive or dead, at least not one that I have found out about. It kind of comes included in my whole egocentric and ethnocentric package.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

stienman said:
I don't understand what you mean by this. My best guess is that you believe that the right to be spanish is denied to dead terrorists? Sorry if I misunderstand...
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ETA? Basque nationalists?! Any of this ring a bell?


stienman said:
Yes, some people believe that burials and memorial services should be basic rights fundamental to human beings.

Some don't.

Participate in your political process if you believe this should be changed, and see if you can get society as a whole to agree with you.
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Most change in human history has hardly won by political process... or even political process alone...

But i see you got the point.

stienman said:
They blow themselves up to KILL other innocent human beings to get attention.

They may think their cause is greater than the life of an uninvolved child, and therefore they feel it's ok to blow up a bus full of children.

There are perishingly few causes that are worth that cost.

Please tell me the causes that you believe are worth far more than a few uninvolved human beings - who had rights that the terrorist chose to remove from them. Then explain to me how killing these people will, with certainty, move the cause forward significantly.

Now give me some examples where "revolutionaries" targeted innocent civilians, and succeeded primarily due to the murders they caused.

-Adam
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As you said before, some do, some don't... the idea was that it's unlikely that they believed they where choosing not to be honoured... martyrdom and all that... what your own morals tell you about what they did won't influence them much.

And asking for definitive proof that terrorism works?! Yeah, i think i'll stay away from that one...
 
C

Chibibar

Denbrought said:
I have not one person to look up to, alive or dead, at least not one that I have found out about. It kind of comes included in my whole egocentric and ethnocentric package.
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Then now I totally understand where you are coming from. By your view, I agree that it is silly to praise or shun the dead since it serves no purpose afterwards (by your view and I'm not making fun of you. I'm understanding a little more on how other think)
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

The only instance of Terrorism that I'd say has ever worked in a world changing way... is the American Revolution.

Surprised? Think about it from a British point of view: A bunch of unruly hicks are making a mess of British owned businesses by destroying their goods and harassing their owners. They are amassing rag tag armies to fight against the legitimate rulers in the area. They are murdering British soldiers and citizens in an attempt to upset the power balance in the region.

Sure sounds like Terrorism to me. You could probably use similar examples like the charging of the Bastille in France too.
 
C

Chibibar

AshburnerX said:
The only instance of Terrorism that I'd say has ever worked in a world changing way... is the American Revolution.

Surprised? Think about it from a British point of view: A bunch of unruly hicks are making a mess of British owned businesses by destroying their goods and harassing their owners. They are amassing rag tag armies to fight against the legitimate rulers in the area. They are murdering British soldiers and citizens in an attempt to upset the power balance in the region.

Sure sounds like Terrorism to me. You could probably use similar examples like the charging of the Bastille in France too.
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heh, you sound like my history teacher. It is a form of terrorism back then, but does the act go further than that? what cause the terrorism?

Now of course, the "modern" society never let the terrorism finish their work, so I'm not sure if these new terrorism people are trying to establish a new government or just terror people?
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Isn't the self proclaimed goal of Al Quada (I know I spelled it wrong) to establish a world wide Islamic State? Terrorists rarely do things for no reason... it's usually in response to a local problem.
 
C

Chibibar

AshburnerX said:
Isn't the self proclaimed goal of Al Quada (I know I spelled it wrong) to establish a world wide Islamic State? Terrorists rarely do things for no reason... it's usually in response to a local problem.
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possible, but is that type of world better for the people? do the countries of Al Quada have the same freedom we (as in U.S. and Europe) possess right now? Do women have equal rights? do they believe that the nation should be equal across the board?

The "new world" only consist of them (the Al Quada) be the top supreme leader of everyone while everyone else is their slave, then it might be a good world to live in.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while both post above are terrorist acts, but the ultimate goal differ by a huge margin.
 
C

Chummer

One mans terrorist is another mans revolutionary.

Traitor or Liberator?

Crusader or Invader?

Etc

It's all a matter of who wins and gets to write the history books.

If the Brits had won the Rev War, Benedict Arnold would be considered a hero.
 
P

Papillon

AshburnerX said:
The only instance of Terrorism that I'd say has ever worked in a world changing way... is the American Revolution.
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and the French Revolution, the Revolt of the Maccabees, the French Resistance in WWII, ...
 
C

Chibibar

Chummer said:
One mans terrorist is another mans revolutionary.

Traitor or Liberator?

Crusader or Invader?

Etc

It's all a matter of who wins and gets to write the history books.

If the Brits had won the Rev War, Benedict Arnold would be considered a hero.
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This is true. The victor writes the history. If Hitler won the war, many country would be speaking German.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

Denbrought, do you mean that funerals for terrorists aren't permitted? If that's the case I wholly agree with your position that that doesn't seem right. Their family deserves to hold that funeral, to say goodbye. That's who a funeral is for, anyway.

As an aside, I dislike the terrorist label as it's been applied so often now. The Western world seems to be using the word as though we're actually terrified by their acts. We seem really pathetic about it right now.
 
tegid

tegid

Wait a minute...

Are you (Den) COMPLETELY sure they aren't allowed to have a funeral? I thought they were...

Public acts of remembrance that laud them as 'freedom fighters' or whatever are forbidden, and it is not such a bad thing, because they're done to make heroes out of these people. Dammit, heroes because they killed people! I don't care why, or for who's freedom they thought they were fighting (and I say 'thought' because usually they were just making some sonovabitch richer than he already is).

Of course, I'm with you that the anti-terrorist, anti-nationalistic attitude is pretty much terrible in that it's tooo exagerated. And hypocritical, since it's only anti-nationalistic when it isn't Spanish nationalism we're talking about. But the situation in Spain is already skewed: you don't see politicians of Baskish parties [strike:3bzla7oi]die[/strike:3bzla7oi] get killed every other day, and it's not the same situation when a politician who has never killed someone dies than when a fucking terrorist who has does.
(this paragraph may be pretty much unreadable. I hope Den, having the context and everything, will be able to understand it)

Of course, I think it is very, very, VERY exaggerated, antidemocratical and hypocritical to outlaw politic parties only because they don't actively condemn terrorism (specially given that one of the major spanish political parties didn't condemn Franco's dictatorship until about 5 years ago).

(Oh god... A gazillion posts since I clicked 'reply'... I'm so NOT gonna read all of them)
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Chummer said:
If the Brits had won the Rev War, Benedict Arnold would be considered a hero.
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I believe he IS considered a great patriot in England.

Papillon said:
and the French Revolution, the Revolt of the Maccabees, the French Resistance in WWII, ...
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To be fair, I did mention the charging of the Bastille, which was the defining moment of the French Revolution. And French Resistance in WWII wouldn't technically be considered Terrorism because they were fighting against a hostile invasion force, not the legitimate governing body. They would be considered Insurgents, like the various militia groups the US is fighting in Iraq.

I'm not familiar with the Revolt of the Maccabees... enlighten me?
 
Denbrought

Denbrought

tegid said:
Wait a minute...

Are you (Den) COMPLETELY sure they aren't allowed to have a funeral? I thought they were...

Public acts of remembrance that laud them as 'freedom fighters' or whatever are forbidden, and it is not such a bad thing, because they're done to make heroes out of these people. Dammit, heroes because they killed people! I don't care why, or for who's freedom they thought they were fighting (and I say 'thought' because usually they were just making some sonovabitch richer than he already is).

Of course, I'm with you that the anti-terrorist, anti-nationalistic attitude is pretty much terrible in that it's tooo exagerated. And hypocritical, since it's only anti-nationalistic when it isn't Spanish nationalism we're talking about. But the situation in Spain is already skewed: you don't see politicians of Baskish parties [strike:2sadkavu]die[/strike:2sadkavu] get killed every other day, and it's not the same situation when a politician who has never killed someone dies than when a fucking terrorist who has does.
(this paragraph may be pretty much unreadable. I hope Den, having the context and everything, will be able to understand it)

Of course, I think it is very, very, VERY exaggerated, antidemocratical and hypocritical to outlaw politic parties only because they don't actively condemn terrorism (specially given that one of the major spanish political parties didn't condemn Franco's dictatorship until about 5 years ago).

(Oh god... A gazillion posts since I clicked 'reply'... I'm so NOT gonna read all of them)
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Firstly, I'm talking about a dignified passing, and right now convicted terrorists aren't even respected in life (ex post facto laws have been passed against them, just to put one of a myriad of examples), but then again I'm not only disgusted by the way the law is set up but how the spaniard society plays the accomplice in all of this. Yes they're killing people, yes that's not nice, but once dead they're as dead as you or me will be. So what if someone wants to call them freedom fighters? It's just matter of then expressing your own opinion and doing so in bigger numbers.
Shit, people today still call Franco the greatest thing to happen to Spain in the last centuries, and right they should be able to. I'd much rather we had a liberty of speech closer to that which americans enjoy.

On this, quick note, it's perfectly democratic to parade around lauding the great deeds that Franco performed in life, but don't you dare laud the work of ETA lest you incur the wrath of ze law.

tegid, I'mma look up some facts later (instead of the factoids I'm drawing from tired memory) and see what's what.
 
tegid

tegid

Denbrought said:
On this, quick note, it's perfectly democratic to parade around lauding the great deeds that Franco performed in life, but don't you dare laud the work of ETA lest you incur the wrath of ze law.
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Well, I'd say legal instead of democratic. But yeah, nitpicking aside, this is something I hate with passion. One thing or the other. Everybody or nobody. But hell, not this hypocritical stance. :S
 
P

Papillon

AshburnerX said:
Chummer said:
If the Brits had won the Rev War, Benedict Arnold would be considered a hero.
Click to expand...
I believe he IS considered a great patriot in England.

Papillon said:
and the French Revolution, the Revolt of the Maccabees, the French Resistance in WWII, ...
Click to expand...
To be fair, I did mention the charging of the Bastille, which was the defining moment of the French Revolution. And French Resistance in WWII wouldn't technically be considered Terrorism because they were fighting against a hostile invasion force, not the legitimate governing body. They would be considered Insurgents, like the various militia groups the US is fighting in Iraq.
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One could argue that the Vichy government was the legitimate French government at the time, even though they were collaborating with the Germans, so in a sense the French Resistance was resisting the legitimate government and a hostile invasion at the same time.

AshburnerX said:
I'm not familiar with the Revolt of the Maccabees... enlighten me?
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The Revolt of the Maccabees was a revolt in present day Israel around 160 BC, where a group of revolutionaries lead by the Maccabee brothers were able to gain independence from the Greeks for about a hundred years before they were conquered by the Romans. I don't know much more than that.
 
J

JCM

Chummer said:
One mans terrorist is another mans revolutionary.

Traitor or Liberator?

Crusader or Invader?

Etc

It's all a matter of who wins and gets to write the history books.

If the Brits had won the Rev War, Benedict Arnold would be considered a hero.
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Pretty much this.
 
S

Scarlet Varlet

U2 - Barcelona, July 2 @ Camp Nou, Sunday Bloody Sunday - dedicated to the Iranian Protest.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR8d1qM-GqE:3l7py3ll][/youtube:3l7py3ll]
 
S

Scarlet Varlet

@Li3n said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8134904.stm
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Something not quite right in all this. It's such an obviously rigged election and the government is acting like the anger and frustration of the people is the fault of outsiders.

In some ways it reminds me of the Soviet Union and in others the rise of Nazi Party in Germany. Not particularly good to be an Iranian in Iran these days.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

Scarlet Varlet said:
Something not quite right in all this. It's such an obviously rigged election and the government is acting like the anger and frustration of the people is the fault of outsiders.
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Which is standard operating procedure... i mean it's not like they can admit it's their fault.

At least the people aren't quitting the protests just because of the passage of time...
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

Hmmm... at first i thought that the uighurs got fed up, but maybe this is just China taking advantage of MJ's death to oppress some people on the down low... DUN DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNN....
 
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