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PS4 is revealed

#1

Frank

Frank

And I'm actually pretty stoked about some of it anyway. The non-proprietary shit under the hood is my biggest excitement. And 8 gigs of DDR5 Ram is fucking rad too.

http://www.gametrailers.com/netstorage/psmeeting/index.html[DOUBLEPOST=1361402969][/DOUBLEPOST]Holy crap at some of the shit Sony's trying here. They want the console to learn your likes and dislikes so precisely through your use of it that it knows ahead of time what games you will or will not want to download and do so so when you go to buy and download something, it's already there for you to play. That's some real ambitious stuff.


#2

Gared

Gared

I'm a little concerned with that processor speed (or I would be if I were a console gamer). The specs I heard were 8 cores, but a speed of only 1.6GHz - or .1GHz faster than a Kindle Fire HD 4G.


#3

MindDetective

MindDetective

The Kindle is dual core, though, right?


#4

figmentPez

figmentPez

Ghz is not an effective measure of processing power. Unless the PS4 is using the same architecture as the Kindle Fire (and I highly doubt that it is) then comparing the clock speed means nothing.


#5

Frank

Frank

I'm not thrilled about the mammoth amounts of social bullshit that's being built in as far as having a share button on the gamepad but I'm a dinosaur that just wants rad games and I'm definitely not hip on the bullshit that today's fucking kids seem so stoked on.[DOUBLEPOST=1361403626][/DOUBLEPOST]Sony wants Gakai to be able to eventually stream every God damn game ever released on all the previous Playstations to the PS4.[DOUBLEPOST=1361403724][/DOUBLEPOST]Randy Pitchford is talking in the video. All the promises are now moot.


#6

Gared

Gared

Frank said:
Randy Pitchford is talking in the video. All the promises are now moot.
Click to expand...
Wait, what? They... what?


#7

Frank

Frank

Randy Pitchford was one of the developers they got to talk about how rad the PS4 is. I now don't believe a word of anything said. His lies. His lies.


#8

Gared

Gared

Frank said:
Randy Pitchford was one of the developers they got to talk about how rad the PS4 is. I now don't believe a word of anything said. His lies. His lies.
Click to expand...
Oh, I know who Pitchford is, I was more dumbfounded that they didn't scratch his part from the vid following the A:CM shitstorm.


#9

Frank

Frank

It's a little disheartening that they've only showed one game so far. I get it. It's a super beast of super connectivity.

SHOW SOME FUCKING GAMES. There's got to be something showable if it's coming out in 6-7 months.[DOUBLEPOST=1361404113][/DOUBLEPOST]Heh, it's like they heard my complaining and immediately reacted. PS4 is amazing. New Killzone is something I guess. Hard to take a Killzone reveal seriously after the bullshit PS3 reveal years and years ago.


#10

Gared

Gared

Well sure, but how many demos did you expect them to be able to dummy up? It's gotta be expensive to make those awesome demos that Gearbox and Blizzard showed off at E3 that had nothing to do with the actual game.


#11

Frank

Frank

This is not actually all that impressive. Like, at all. So, at least that lends to it's credibility.


#12

Gared

Gared

That's... pretty sad. We're giving a demo a higher level of credibility based on the fact that it's not a very impressive demo.


#13

Frank

Frank

Now, if this car ass game is to be believed, then fuck, that's pretty. Driving games are always the best looking games though.

This guy can only climax to pictures of cars.[DOUBLEPOST=1361405069][/DOUBLEPOST]OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH, Watchdogs. Now I have a boner like the car guy.

AGGGGGGGGGGGH, it's not Watchdogs.[DOUBLEPOST=1361405169][/DOUBLEPOST]Fuck yeah, new Sucker Punch Infamous style. Boner's back, I love Infamous.[DOUBLEPOST=1361405637][/DOUBLEPOST]Holy shit, The Witness looks fucking rad. Jonathan Blow is kind of a douchebag, but the man makes incredible puzzle games.


#14

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Wow, Sony got the creator of Braid on board. Game looks pretty good, too. Take that, Microsoft!

And yeah, while the new Killzone looks great, it comes across as just another generic FPS with the biff-bam-boom and little substance.

I did like that first game they showed, but can't remember its name. Kind of a cartoony game that reminds me some of Katamari in its scale.

I really like some of the social aspects, like the Share button and looking over a friend's shoulder, watching him play the game online, like a live Let's Play. Also like the idea of letting that friend take over your game at a tough part.

Still apprehensive about the idea of cloud gaming. Hopefully this doesn't screw over the used game market, especially if they keep pricing their games online the same as the physical copies, which is just insulting.

So yeah, overall? So far, I'm kinda digging this. New Infamous looks like they're continuing on the story without forcing the main character back when it wouldn't make sense. I'm down for that.


#15

Frank

Frank

So far they haven't mentioned the lockout of used games, so plus one to Sony against Microsoft on that. They God damn well better not pull that bullshit.[DOUBLEPOST=1361406189][/DOUBLEPOST]UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH Move controller..................fuck off with that bullshi....that actually kind of looks neat. I don't hate that.


#16

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I can't wait to see what Double Fine have in store. They interviewed Tim Schafer in one of those video clips.

Also, I would shit my pants if suddenly Half-Life 3 was announced. It won't happen, but holy shit, if it did?

Okay, MM, this moulding game looks fun, but why must you use the Move crap?


#17

Frank

Frank

And this is getting radder.

Media Molecule only needs to make a good game around this concept.[DOUBLEPOST=1361406397][/DOUBLEPOST]Ok, now it's getting embarrassing like that Nintendo music thing...well not quite that embarrassing.


#18

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

You're alone on this one, pal. This looks stupid to me. Though it looks like the next step for LBP, where they can make levels like that.


#19

Frank

Frank

Really? You don't see how cool it would be to be able to sculpt your own characters in a game? To be able to sculpt levels? I see huge potential here. They just need to craft a good game around it.[DOUBLEPOST=1361406528][/DOUBLEPOST]I love this guy, he's the happiest man in the world. He's a huge fucking troll but I always dig him when he's talking about shit.


#20

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Eh, it'll be great for people who have the artistic talent or patience for it, which I have neither. I've never made a LBP level for the same reasons.


#21

Frank

Frank

Code named Panty Raid?

What the fuck?


#22

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I really wish emphasis on graphics in games would stop. I want more interactivity, more exploration possibilities, more freedom, and less cutscenes or pre-set story moments. Heck, I want more LITTLE details, like how the enemy is affected depending on where you hit them.


#23

Frank

Frank

Oh, Panta Rhei.

Holy Christ, this looks impressive. Fuck, I wish this were the old days when it was easy to tell bullshots from real shit easily.

Deep Down looks like Dragon's Dogma.

D.D. looks like D.D.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

Square Enix, I can't wait to be underwhelmed.


#24

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

"This isn't a game demo, but a cinematic demonstration..." OH FUCK OFF, SQUARE ENIX!

Oh, even better...we've already seen this.


#25

Frank

Frank

Hey, we're Square Enix, check out this game that will probably never come out.[DOUBLEPOST=1361407108][/DOUBLEPOST]Fuck off, this is old shit. Square Enix underwhelming prediction super confirmed.


#26

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Square Enix has a Final Fantasy game coming out? Oh BOY! There's a surprise. *sarcasm*


#27

Frank

Frank

Jesus Square. If Square was a dog, we'd have fucking put it down by now.[DOUBLEPOST=1361407413][/DOUBLEPOST]WATCHDOGS. GIVE IT TO ME!


#28

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Here comes your Watchdogs, Frankie.


#29

Frank

Frank

Man, Sucker Punch stole their thunder by starting off their game presentation with the exact same speech.[DOUBLEPOST=1361407619][/DOUBLEPOST]STOP WHISPERING IN PSUEDOENGLISH AND GIVE IT TO ME.[DOUBLEPOST=1361407855][/DOUBLEPOST]They're giving it to me.

This looks rad as fuck.


#30

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

HOLY SHIT, THAT'S COOL!


#31

Frank

Frank

Hideo Kojima, calling it now

Oh, I'm wrong.

WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU?


#32

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Blizzard? Whoa. Way to raise the bar, Sony. Seriously, holy crap.

Sony and Blizzard team up to take over the world. You wish they were kidding.


#33

Frank

Frank

Holy shit.[DOUBLEPOST=1361408085][/DOUBLEPOST]FUCK OFF.

Diablo 3? Who fucking gives a shit?

That farting noise is the air being let out of the balloon.


#34

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Oh FUCK OFF, Blzard. Way to get my hopes up.


#35

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Diablo 3 on both the ps3 and ps4.

Uh... woohoo?


#36

Frank

Frank

Get off the stage![DOUBLEPOST=1361408232][/DOUBLEPOST]Hideo Kojima, second time I'm calling it. UGH, I'm super wrong again. What's a Sony conference without Hideo?[DOUBLEPOST=1361408315][/DOUBLEPOST]Did Activision clone John Riccotello? This guy is an utter clone of him. EA and Activision are the same company confirmed.[DOUBLEPOST=1361408347][/DOUBLEPOST]WHOA!

MEGATON!


#37

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Does anyone still give a shit about Bungie?


#38

Frank

Frank

Bungie abandons Microsoft exclusivity.[DOUBLEPOST=1361408475][/DOUBLEPOST]Destiny looks pretty sweet in a it shits all over Killzone 4 sort of way.


#39

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

You know, if they announced The Last Guardian for ps4, I'd buy it immediately.

Though, that didn't work out too well for me with the PS3.


#40

Frank

Frank

We here at Activision and Bungie bring you.....dudes in blazers and jeans!


#41

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

I will say this of Destiny, a persistent online world is the only time required online connectivity makes sense.


#42

Frank

Frank

Say the price you fucks.


#43

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Frank said:
Say the price you fucks.
Click to expand...
nope.jpg


#44

Frank

Frank

Sony you cum dumpsters.


#45

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I'm disappointed by the lack of Double Fine, but man, they took the Braid creator and Bungie away from Microsoft. That's gotta hurt.


#46

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Just who I want to see after the show.



#47

Frank

Frank

Dorito Pope talking to Chris Metzen about Diablo 3. 3 things together I couldn't give less a shit about.


#48

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe



#49

Frank

Frank

Overall, it was a console launch presser through and through. I'm optimistic. They said nothing about limiting used games, which is a plus in my books because that anti-consumer nonsense can eat my dick. Lots of social nonsense for you people that like playing games with other people. I'm stoked to see what Media Molecule does with that sculpting thing. If it's good it's the only reason I'd ever want a Move. Destiny looked cool. Watch_Dogs has got me hook line and sinker so if it ends up disappointing I may quit gaming altogether.


#50

Frank

Frank

If anyone gives a shit, Rev3 games has a nice playlist of all the trailers for games shown.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWnpHOQXsPDubZktXTwZ9McoJQLuOpz77

I forgot about Knack, which is super unfortunate because it looks incredibly charming.


#51

Far

Far

So pumped Destiny will be coming to PS. Also, I would waste hours with that move sculpting thing as it is right now. Knack looks promising and Watchdogs remains my most anticipated upcoming release.


#52

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

The number I keep hearing rumored is $600 for the big boy version of the PS4.


#53

Shakey

Shakey

Frank said:
They said nothing about limiting used games, which is a plus in my books because that anti-consumer nonsense can eat my dick.
Click to expand...
They're not going to confirm something like that until they have to. They know it will be universally hated by everyone other than developers. They'll try to slip it in as quietly as they can.


#54

figmentPez

figmentPez

2013_02_20 Piro says the PS4 needs an EDS peripheral.PNG


#55

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

figmentPez said:
View attachment 10318
Click to expand...
I'd care more about what he says if he released more than a single page of his comic a month.


#56

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

A few questions or items come to mind for me:

1) I assume it'll still have a disc player (Blu-Ray, likely). They'd be shooting themselves in the foot again, ala PSP Go, if they went all digital.

2) They already confirmed that it will not be reverse-compatible, which is bullshit to me.

3) I'm concerned about one thing: what happens to all the products I purchased already on PSN? For example, will I be able to carry over my PSN-bought copies of Double Fine's games or Limbo? I really, really hope so because otherwise, that's even more bullshit.
4) I hope it won't be exclusively online necessary.

5) I'm curious to see how the "friend takes over for you" works. Hopefully it's something you can turn off if you don't want to be bothered. Obviously it would need to have both parties agree, but I don't want to be bombarded by requests or something.


#57

PatrThom

PatrThom

AshburnerX said:
The number I keep hearing rumored is $600 for the big boy version of the PS4.
Click to expand...
Sooo...about the same price as an iPhone?

--Patrick


#58

bhamv3

bhamv3

AshburnerX said:
I'd care more about what he says if he released more than a single page of his comic a month.
Click to expand...
Is that Megatokyo Fred? I thought "emotional doll system" sounded familiar but I couldn't place it.


#59

Reverent-one

Reverent-one

Shakey said:
They're not going to confirm something like that until they have to. They know it will be universally hated by everyone other than developers. They'll try to slip it in as quietly as they can.
Click to expand...
Yep, the fact that they didn't confirm that they're not doing that is a point against them in my book.

Anyway, it looks...alright. Sony's never been a big deal for me (other than for Square games back in the day), so it's nothing unusual there. Bungie jumping over to the PS is noteworthy at least. The graphics don't really look too special, though maybe that's just the quality of the videos online.


#60

figmentPez

figmentPez

bhamv3 said:
Is that Megatokyo Fred? I thought "emotional doll system" sounded familiar but I couldn't place it.
Click to expand...
Yup, it's Piro.


#61

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

ThatNickGuy said:
) I'm concerned about one thing: what happens to all the products I purchased already on PSN? For example, will I be able to carry over my PSN-bought copies of Double Fine's games or Limbo? I really, really hope so because otherwise, that's even more bullshit.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure this is the case or else you wouldn't be able to play a lot of PSN stuff between your PS3 and PSP.


#62

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

I'm willing to bet they won't, so they can introduce the PSP2 to go with the PS4 Network games.


#63

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Gilgamesh said:
I'm willing to bet they won't, so they can introduce the PSP2 to go with the PS4 Network games.
Click to expand...
It's called the Vita.

And Nick meant games he already bought as PSN games. Suggesting you can't would assume Sony is doing away with the whole PSN to replace it with something new, which is an option as stupid as Microsoft getting rid of X-Box Live, and yet not beyond the kind of dumb shit Sony has done in the past. Dammit. They wouldn't even go Nintendo on us and let systems blink lights at each other as they pass the info along.


#64

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

bhamv3 said:
Is that Megatokyo Fred? I thought "emotional doll system" sounded familiar but I couldn't place it.
Click to expand...
I like that you instantly knew who it was just be saying how many pages he puts out. He's a talented artist but he's coasting by entirely on reputation at this point.


#65

bhamv3

bhamv3

AshburnerX said:
I like that you instantly knew who it was just be saying how many pages he puts out. He's a talented artist but he's coasting by entirely on reputation at this point.
Click to expand...
Yeah I used to check his site daily. Now I go back every six months or so, given how infrequently he updates, and how so little happens in each individual strip.


#66

Frank

Frank

AshburnerX said:
The number I keep hearing rumored is $600 for the big boy version of the PS4.
Click to expand...
The price being quoted in Europe is 399 euros and it's usually a 1:1 price from euros to dollars.


#67

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

That's STILL $100 too much. I only payed $300 for Xbox 360 SP, with two games, a controller, a month of live, and a headset. For $400, I'd better be getting at LEAST a game and a month of PSN +.


#68

Frank

Frank

If 400 dollars is too much for you for a new, honestly extremely powerful piece of gaming hardware at launch, then you need a new hobby or to wait for a price drop.

People buy fucking ipads for 600 bucks or iphones for 400.


#69

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Looking at price listings, I suppose it IS average for a Playstation console. PSX cost about $460 in today's dollars. PS2 was about $400 itself.

I guess I'm just used to $300 because that's the price point Nintendo always tries to never break.


#70

Frank

Frank

Except they did, with the WiiU


#71

Bubble181

Bubble181

I have to say, the PS4 will have hardware that's....well, not all that astounding for a PC gamer. Yes, it'l lbe cheaper than a PC with the same stats ,but...The PS2, at least, was better than what you could get at the time as a PC.
Always-online for everything. Urk.
No backwards compatibility. Urk.
Cloud saving, no local saving. Urk.
Anyone who still believes there'll be second hand games (or support for them) is dreaming.

All in all, this is a console for the next generation, not for me. It's Sony et al. forcing us into a scifi-like future where I don't want to be. I don't want to ahve to rely entirely on things outside of my control to see what I can play. I don't want the console "guessing" what I'll want to play and downloading so it's ready to play when I buy it. I don't want my friends intruding in my games and bothering me. And I definitely don't want everyone and their dog to share every thing they do on facebook. The moment I see "Bob picked up a new rifle in CoD6! - posted from his PS 4" on my facebook is the moment I kick Bob off of my friends list.


#72

Frank

Frank

Look, in some ways, it's just a mid, high end PC, but does your PC have 8 gigs of DDR-5 RAM? Mine sure as fuck doesn't.


#73

Far

Far

I don't know the veracity of IGN any more but there's this RE: used games.


#74

Bubble181

Bubble181

Frank said:
Look, in some ways, it's just a mid, high end PC, but does your PC have 8 gigs of DDR-5 RAM? Mine sure as fuck doesn't.
Click to expand...
Most standard game PCs these days have 8 GB of DDR3 or DDR4, midrange/normal home use PCs often have 4 GB, I admit. But comparatively, this PS4 is the least "groundbreaking" of any of the Pss released so far. It'll take, what, a year, maybe two, before game PCs come with that or better as a standard? That's a lot faster than the PS or PS2.

Far said:
I don't know the veracity of IGN any more but there's this RE: used games.
Click to expand...
I don't think a lot of people think it'll come with a special "blocking" mechanism. I think they're going to try and sell most/all games digitally - and you can't resell Steam or GFWL/X-Live games, now can you?


#75

Frank

Frank

Bubble181 said:
Most standard game PCs these days have 8 GB of DDR3 or DDR4, midrange/normal home use PCs often have 4 GB, I admit. But comparatively, this PS4 is the least "groundbreaking" of any of the Pss released so far. It'll take, what, a year, maybe two, before game PCs come with that or better as a standard? That's a lot faster than the PS or PS2.
Click to expand...
There is a silly gulf of difference between the speeds of DDR-3 and DDR-5. And you can't just compare the raw specs of a console vs a PC. It's never worked as a perfect 1:1 comparison.

All "ground-breaking" got the PS3 is being harder to develop for and the shitty versions of multi-platform games. They designed the thing to be easy for develop for.


#76

Bubble181

Bubble181

Frank said:
There is a silly gulf of difference between the speeds of DDR-3 and DDR-5. And you can't just compare the raw specs of a console vs a PC. It's never worked as a perfect 1:1 comparison.

All "ground-breaking" got the PS3 is being harder to develop for and the shitty versions of multi-platform games. They designed the thing to be easy for develop for.
Click to expand...
I didn't disagree with you :p All I'm saying is that I have the impression that PCs will catch up with the PS4 faster than they did with the PS1 or 2. And yes, that is (at least partially) because they designed this one to be easier to program for.

As for a PC/console comparison: the only reason multplatform games don't completely blow away their console counterparts on PC, is because those games are designed for the console and tend to underuse the extras a PC provides; not because a PC can do less wit the same hardware.


#77

Shakey

Shakey

Bubble181 said:
I don't think a lot of people think it'll come with a special "blocking" mechanism. I think they're going to try and sell most/all games digitally - and you can't resell Steam or GFWL/X-Live games, now can you?
Click to expand...
My guess is it will come with the ability to block used games, but it will be up to the publisher to decide if it will be used with their game or not. That way they can lay the blame on the publishers and not their console.


#78

Tress

Tress

ThatNickGuy said:
I'm concerned about one thing: what happens to all the products I purchased already on PSN? For example, will I be able to carry over my PSN-bought copies of Double Fine's games or Limbo? I really, really hope so because otherwise, that's even more bullshit.
Click to expand...
Via Joystiq:
Sony Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida just told our friends at Engadget current-gen PSN purchases won't transfer across to the PS4.

In last night's PS4 announcement, Sony revealed the new console won't have backwards compatibility for PS1, PS2, or PS3 discs, although the company aims to use the PS Cloud service to stream previous-gen games as a workaround.
Click to expand...


#79

Frank

Frank

Bubble181 said:
I have to say, the PS4 will have hardware that's....well, not all that astounding for a PC gamer. Yes, it'l lbe cheaper than a PC with the same stats ,but...The PS2, at least, was better than what you could get at the time as a PC.
Always-online for everything. Urk.
No backwards compatibility. Urk.
Cloud saving, no local saving. Urk.
Anyone who still believes there'll be second hand games (or support for them) is dreaming.

All in all, this is a console for the next generation, not for me. It's Sony et al. forcing us into a scifi-like future where I don't want to be. I don't want to ahve to rely entirely on things outside of my control to see what I can play. I don't want the console "guessing" what I'll want to play and downloading so it's ready to play when I buy it. I don't want my friends intruding in my games and bothering me. And I definitely don't want everyone and their dog to share every thing they do on facebook. The moment I see "Bob picked up a new rifle in CoD6! - posted from his PS 4" on my facebook is the moment I kick Bob off of my friends list.
Click to expand...
They addressed the online only and all the social stuff.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-21-playstation-4-does-not-require-an-internet-connection

Basically it's not online required and you can turn off the social stuff.


#80

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Tress said:
Via Joystiq:
Click to expand...
Okay, that's just total and complete bullshit, then. This is the kind of shit that I was afraid of when it comes to online purchases.


#81

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

The first few pages of this thread reads like a Beat Poet's Stream of Conscience Poem...


#82

Covar

Covar

Frank said:
Look, in some ways, it's just a mid, high end PC, but does your PC have 8 gigs of DDR-5 RAM? Mine sure as fuck doesn't.
Click to expand...
I have 24GB of DDR3, but I don't know how that compares speedwise.


#83

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/122284-PSN-Games-Wont-Transfer-to-PS4

This article is a bit more hopeful about PSN games. They might make it to the PS4 eventually, but not at launch. Which is still Sony shooting itself in the foot if they expect people to buy it at launch.


#84

Espy

Espy

I understand why they don't allow backwards compatibility but I do not understand why my PSN games can't transfer. Does it have anything to do with the architecture of the system?

Edit: Read Nick's link, looks like it's the guts that make it hard to transfer. I guess that makes sense. Still seems like it could be worked around.


#85

Tress

Tress

Espy said:
I understand why they don't allow backwards compatibility but I do not understand why my PSN games can't transfer. Does it have anything to do with the architecture of the system?
Click to expand...


#86

Eriol

Eriol

Espy said:
I understand why they don't allow backwards compatibility but I do not understand why my PSN games can't transfer. Does it have anything to do with the architecture of the system?
Click to expand...
Going from Cell to X86 is a huge change IMO. I hope their intermediate layers make it an easier transition, but there's no guarantees, and could be very title-specific.


#87

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I really shouldn't be forced to buy PS1 games again, nor should I be forced to buy Journey or Double Fine's games again. I'm not a technology expert, so I don't understand what's so hard about moving something digital to something else digital. It's the same platform.


#88

Espy

Espy

ThatNickGuy said:
I really shouldn't be forced to buy PS1 games again, nor should I be forced to buy Journey or Double Fine's games again. I'm not a technology expert, so I don't understand what's so hard about moving something digital to something else digital. It's the same platform.
Click to expand...
It sounds like, and keep in mind I have ZERO idea how this works, that something in the actual... uh... processors/system architecture differs enough from the PS3 that the games won't play on the PS4.


Now, seems to me that they aren't going to just not sell all the crap they have on PSN to PS4 customers so I'm guessing at some point games will be for sale for PS3 or PS4. Whats bullshit is that if I own FF7 on PS3 I should, once it's available, be able to get it on my PS4. At least it seems like a obvious cash grab if they don't allow it.


#89

Covar

Covar

ThatNickGuy said:
I really shouldn't be forced to buy PS1 games again, nor should I be forced to buy Journey or Double Fine's games again. I'm not a technology expert, so I don't understand what's so hard about moving something digital to something else digital. It's the same platform.
Click to expand...
square peg in round hole.


#90

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Honestly, I'm most excited for the next gen console age because it will briefly stop holding back pc games.


#91

Eriol

Eriol

ThatNickGuy said:
I really shouldn't be forced to buy PS1 games again, nor should I be forced to buy Journey or Double Fine's games again. I'm not a technology expert, so I don't understand what's so hard about moving something digital to something else digital. It's the same platform.
Click to expand...
Think of it this way: would you expect to be able to put the same engine (game) you just had in a Ford (PS3) into a Toyota (PS4)? If you specially design both cars to begin with, then maybe you can, but otherwise, you're going to need to overhaul the engine (re-jig the game) or put a crap load of intermediate mechanics in there (compatibility layers) to make it work. It's not a "it's just digital" or anything like that.

The analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but a better one might be if you've ever tried to put a metric bolt into an imperial nut, or vice-versa. Digital compatibility is the exception not the norm.


#92

Tress

Tress

I can appreciate there are difficulties in transferring the games over, but I would have liked Sony to take the time/effort/resources to make the games transfer over anyway. It is a priority to me, and to others apparently.


#93

figmentPez

figmentPez

Tress said:
I can appreciate there are difficulties in transferring the games over, but I would have liked Sony to take the time/effort/resources to make the games transfer over anyway. It is a priority to me, and to others apparently.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately console makers come at this, apparently, from the same type of mindset with which they view used game sales. They want their new console to have a high attach rate, to prove to publishers that games should be developed for their platform. They then conclude that every old game that can be played is a new game that isn't being played, and is thus a lost sale.


#94

Tress

Tress

figmentPez said:
Unfortunately console makers come at this, apparently, from the same type of mindset with which they view used game sales. They want their new console to have a high attach rate, to prove to publishers that games should be developed for their platform. They then conclude that every old game that can be played is a new game that isn't being played, and is thus a lost sale.
Click to expand...
... which is a mentality that completely turns me off as a consumer. And so I'm going to keep voting with my wallet until Sony stops viewing customers as nothing more than mindless crops waiting to be harvested.


#95

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Tress said:
I can appreciate there are difficulties in transferring the games over, but I would have liked Sony to take the time/effort/resources to make the games transfer over anyway. It is a priority to me, and to others apparently.
Click to expand...
They do have hundreds, possibly a thousand, games in their digital library, and to this date have mostly relied on their developers' ability to re-code the games to run on new digital platforms (which is why some games on PSN are PSN-only, while some are PSP-compatible, and some are additionally optimized for Vita-play).

I agree that it's something they definitely should do, but it sounds like they are doing it, and a little patience is what's required.


#96

Gared

Gared

I can understand wanting to have compatibility for older systems' games on the new system. I mean, you paid for all of those games, you want to keep playing them, you want to keep them around because some of them are like old friends that've been with you for years and years. But at the same time, have you ever tried playing a PC game from the PS1 era on a gaming rig from the PS3/4 era? Sure, there are ways to make it work. There's special software you can use to slow your 3.2GHz quad core down to 66MHz, so the game doesn't run too fast; and you can set the resolution of your monitor back down to 800x600 so there aren't massive black bands all around the picture and the picture isn't stretched out all to hell. But that doesn't necessarily make them good... or even playable, in some cases. I mean, it would be nice to see what some of the old games look like if they were upgraded to use the new architecture and the new graphics capabilities, but since so many of the games were programmed in such a way that they can't automatically scale themselves up to really take advantage of the fact that you now have 6, 8, or more Gigs of RAM when you used to have 12 Megs of it or or the fact that computers come with audio codecs capable of playing symphonies well enough that most people can't tell the difference between what a computer can play and what the actual symphony sounds like live when you used to have a semi-decent 3 or 4 octave range of scratchy-sounding beeps. Heck, most PS2 games don't even look any better in HD than they do in SD, and in some cases look worse because they just weren't designed to be displayed at that high of a resolution. Speculation on the specs of the new system is that it will be capable of supporting ultra-high resolution. Do you really want to see FFVII in ultra-high resolution? Also, it's not like Sony is going to force you to return your PS1, 2, 3, etc. in order to buy a PS4, so you will still be able to play your old games, if you have that capability now.


#97

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

figmentPez said:
Unfortunately console makers come at this, apparently, from the same type of mindset with which they view used game sales. They want their new console to have a high attach rate, to prove to publishers that games should be developed for their platform. They then conclude that every old game that can be played is a new game that isn't being played, and is thus a lost sale.
Click to expand...

This is not quite true (at least the perspective you're approaching from). Console makers love backwards compatibility, in principle. It increases the value of new offerings and encourages customer loyalty to their brand.

Publishers hate backwards compatibility. For them, backwards compatibility means having to maintain support for old platforms that they no longer develop for, and since they've already sold the software once, they're not gaining anything (in their minds) by keeping it available for a new platform.

The problem is that Sony is both console-maker and publisher. Or more accurately, they have a console division and a software division, and they don't actually have the same goals. The Pub-side wants a high attach rate (for their titles at least), because that's indicative of their abilities to sell franchise releases. The Console-side doesn't care about attach rate (at launch anyways), because they don't sell according to attach rate (they don't even sell according to tie-ratio), they sell according to install-base and average spend per user.

What this means is that the console side has every reason to want as many previously-bought PSN games working on the PS4 as possible, while the publisher side is going to try and get away with as few as possible and re-sell everything.


#98

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Gared said:
I can understand wanting to have compatibility for older systems' games on the new system. I mean, you paid for all of those games, you want to keep playing them, you want to keep them around because some of them are like old friends that've been with you for years and years. But at the same time, have you ever tried playing a PC game from the PS1 era on a gaming rig from the PS3/4 era? Sure, there are ways to make it work. There's special software you can use to slow your 3.2GHz quad core down to 66MHz, so the game doesn't run too fast; and you can set the resolution of your monitor back down to 800x600 so there aren't massive black bands all around the picture and the picture isn't stretched out all to hell. But that doesn't necessarily make them good... or even playable, in some cases. I mean, it would be nice to see what some of the old games look like if they were upgraded to use the new architecture and the new graphics capabilities, but since so many of the games were programmed in such a way that they can't automatically scale themselves up to really take advantage of the fact that you now have 6, 8, or more Gigs of RAM when you used to have 12 Megs of it or or the fact that computers come with audio codecs capable of playing symphonies well enough that most people can't tell the difference between what a computer can play and what the actual symphony sounds like live when you used to have a semi-decent 3 or 4 octave range of scratchy-sounding beeps. Heck, most PS2 games don't even look any better in HD than they do in SD, and in some cases look worse because they just weren't designed to be displayed at that high of a resolution. Speculation on the specs of the new system is that it will be capable of supporting ultra-high resolution. Do you really want to see FFVII in ultra-high resolution? Also, it's not like Sony is going to force you to return your PS1, 2, 3, etc. in order to buy a PS4, so you will still be able to play your old games, if you have that capability now.
Click to expand...
Someone better tell GOG about this.


#99

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

Ravenpoe said:
Honestly, I'm most excited for the next gen console age because it will briefly stop holding back pc games.
Click to expand...
Except for Diablo 3.

Hell, the PS3 and 4 versions are getting offline and local multiplayer.


#100

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

CynicismKills said:
Except for Diablo 3.

Hell, the PS3 and 4 versions are getting offline and local multiplayer.
Click to expand...
That's because Blizzard says fuck you.


#101

Gared

Gared

Ravenpoe said:
Someone better tell GOG about this.
Click to expand...
I have several GOG games. They don't play well on my new computer, at all. They look horrible, they play really poorly, etc.


#102

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

Ravenpoe said:
That's because Blizzard says fuck you.
Click to expand...
Yeah, there's a veritable ocean of torches and pitchforks on every Diablo/Blizz forum I've stumbled across.


#103

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

CynicismKills said:
Yeah, there's a veritable ocean of torches and pitchforks on every Diablo/Blizz forum I've stumbled across.
Click to expand...
Rightfully so. I'm pissed off enough to want to play Path of Exile or Torchlight 2 just to spite those fuckers, and I don't even have real time for video games these days!

(or I might just go back to playing Spiral Knights)


#104

fade

fade

Hmm. I'm no hardcore gamer, and I'm not at all sure how to react at this point. Demos look nice, and hardware specs are decent. I'd like to have backwards compatibility, but really, why should I expect it to be there? It's a different system.

Does anyone know what this device will be capable of OTHER than games? I do have a PS3, but I don't have a huge amount of time to play it. Right now, for a consumer like me, it feels like the PS3 is missing non-gaming capabilities that I can use when I'm not using the gaming system. The ones that are there are outdated. It'd be a great HTPC if the software was there, for instance. That would be extremely attractive to me.


#105

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

fade said:
Hmm. I'm no hardcore gamer, and I'm not at all sure how to react at this point. Demos look nice, and hardware specs are decent. I'd like to have backwards compatibility, but really, why should I expect it to be there? It's a different system.

Does anyone know what this device will be capable of OTHER than games? I do have a PS3, but I don't have a huge amount of time to play it. Right now, for a consumer like me, it feels like the PS3 is missing non-gaming capabilities that I can use when I'm not using the gaming system. The ones that are there are outdated. It'd be a great HTPC if the software was there, for instance. That would be extremely attractive to me.
Click to expand...
I suspect it will have all the various video streaming goodies, but no word on being able to play your own media files from what I have seen so far. Anyone hear differently?


#106

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Here we go, for those of you who wanted an abridged version:


#107

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Fuck you, Sony.


#108

Gared

Gared

I suppose at some point we all have to realize that the target market for both the PS and the Xbox is less about people who care about the longevity of games, and more about the dude-bros who are only concerned with being able to play the most dude-brotasticaly awesome new CoD game and the most dude-brotasticaly awesome new sports franchise game with the rest of their dude-bros.


#109

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Gilgamesh said:
Here we go, for those of you who wanted an abridged version:
Click to expand...
"We want nothing to get between you and the game. Here's a bunch of stuff that gets between you and the game."

And it's Sony doublespeak like that which makes me disbelieve the exec that says Sony will not have a block on used games for the PS4. No one at that company has any solid idea about what's going on.

They learned nothing from the PS3's shitty release, did they?


#110

GasBandit

GasBandit

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

/wipes tear


#111

Eriol

Eriol

That "Abridged" video is so much win.


#112

fade

fade

You know what I really want? A nice console. One that plays good games. I couldn't give two poops about PC gaming. I sit at a computer all day, so you know what I really want to do nights and weekends? Stare at a computer. At least with a console, I can sit back on my couch.

You know what sells this PS4 to me? The suspend feature. That says "dad gamer" all over it. Seriously, that is the killer in all of that doody.


#113

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

I'm really amazed that they didn't push the "streams" to your Vita/PSP thing as more a "now Dad/Mom you can keep playing your games & still keep your kids company while they watch Dora" angle instead of the "ALWAY KEEP GAMING!!" thing. The WiiU sort of pushed this, but only at E3.

This actually a real thing experienced by people who actually have money to buy extraneous entertainment goods. I mentioned this to my friend who just had a kid, and he was like, "Huh. That could actually be useful".


#114

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

fade said:
You know what I really want? A nice console. One that plays good games. I couldn't give two poops about PC gaming. I sit at a computer all day, so you know what I really want to do nights and weekends? Stare at a computer. At least with a console, I can sit back on my couch.

You know what sells this PS4 to me? The suspend feature. That says "dad gamer" all over it. Seriously, that is the killer in all of that doody.
Click to expand...
You realize you can connect your PC to a TV right? It's still the ultimate -console-

My kids have all 3 consoles and a gaming PC connected to their TV in the living room, they use the PC way more than the consoles and they still get to sit on the couch and use a controller.


#115

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Hey guys, a photo of the PS4 console was leaked:



#116

Bowielee

Bowielee

Gilgamesh said:
You realize you can connect your PC to a TV right? It's still the ultimate -console-

My kids have all 3 consoles and a gaming PC connected to their TV in the living room, they use the PC way more than the consoles and they still get to sit on the couch and use a controller.
Click to expand...
My PC is hooked up to my TV with an Xbox controller. I'm pretty much set for most games. The only time I get a console game is when it's an exclusive that I really want. Ni No Kuni, Uncharted, Infamous, etc...


#117

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

I don't understand why, if I log into the PSN on the PS4, I can't download the stuff I own on there.

Unless they're scrapping PSN entirely for something new. Which would be really stupid since the Vita uses it.

But then, this is Sony.


#118

bhamv3

bhamv3

ThatNickGuy said:
Hey guys, a photo of the PS4 console was leaked:

Click to expand...

​
Sony Entertainment​
​
Official Memo​


From: Office of the Chairman

To: Research and Development


Find the guy who thought this was what I meant by "quad core" and have him executed.


#119

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

My guess is that they don't want to include the PS3 hardware (because it would make it more expensive) and they aren't sure how to emulate it yet. Ether those or they just want to force you to rebuy stuff on the PSN.

I suspect they'll be pulling an Nintendo and offering stuff you've already payed for at a vastly reduced price.


#120

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Bowielee said:
My PC is hooked up to my TV with an Xbox controller. I'm pretty much set for most games. The only time I get a console game is when it's an exclusive that I really want. Ni No Kuni, Uncharted, Infamous, etc...
Click to expand...
Exactly. I can't fathom a reason to choose a console over a PC other than price and exclusives.
Though I think spending $600 on a console instead of upgrading your PC, isn't your best bang for buck for gaming.


#121

Bowielee

Bowielee

I can see price being a factor. to really remain on top of the graphics curve, I do have to buy a whole new system every 7-10 years when my processor or memory start bottlenecking performance, with graphics cards running 200.00 or so depending on how far behind you're willing to go every 3-4 years. In the long run it's more expensive, but paying 15-30 per game if you're patient with steam sales, it may actually be a better bang for your buck. Especially because games tend to look so much better on PC.


#122

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Quotemander Prime said:
I don't understand why, if I log into the PSN on the PS4, I can't download the stuff I own on there.
Click to expand...
For the same reason that you needed to download Rosetta to run pre-Intel (non-universal) mac programs on Intel Macs.

It's a different chip architecture, and for that to work you either need to include the old chip tech (like the PS2 did to support PS1 titles), emulate it (like the original PS3 did for select PS2 titles), or re-build the program for the new environment (like PSN eventually did for lots of things).

They've already said they're going to be using Gaikai to stream their PSN library (which is why how that's priced is going to be important), so maybe that's how they're planning to do an end-run around that problem.

In an ideal world (which we probably won't get), we will have the options to stream any PSN game we've purchased regardless of whether it's been re-built or not to a PS4, but games where the dev has actually bothered to re-build it will be downloadable to play.


#123

Bowielee

Bowielee

Basically, with PC games, if you're willing to wait, you are actually saving a ton of money as console prices don't drop nearly as fast.

Edit: this post was meant to be merged with my last post.


#124

fade

fade

Gilgamesh said:
You realize you can connect your PC to a TV right? It's still the ultimate -console-

My kids have all 3 consoles and a gaming PC connected to their TV in the living room, they use the PC way more than the consoles and they still get to sit on the couch and use a controller.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know you can do that, but that requires futzing around with the PC, and going through the OS, instead of just flopping back and popping in a game that is guaranteed to work with no other input from me. I know how to make a PC sit up and bark like a dog, but I just don't want to when I have 20 minutes to play a game.

(Also, I paid 225 for a new PS3 from Target several years ago now, not 600)


#125

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

fade said:
Yeah, I know you can do that, but that requires futzing around with the PC, and going through the OS, instead of just flopping back and popping in a game that is guaranteed to work with no other input from me. I know how to make a PC sit up and bark like a dog, but I just don't want to when I have 20 minutes to play a game.
Click to expand...
Uh no?
Plug in an HDMI cable (like you did your console), turn on the PC (like turning on the console), select your game (like navigating your console menu), start playing (no different than your console).

I don't think you know how to make it sit up and bark like a dog. Sounds to me like you make it needlessly complicated.


#126

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

fade said:
Yeah, I know you can do that, but that requires futzing around with the PC, and going through the OS, instead of just flopping back and popping in a game that is guaranteed to work with no other input from me. I know how to make a PC sit up and bark like a dog, but I just don't want to when I have 20 minutes to play a game.

(Also, I paid 225 for a new PS3 from Target several years ago now, not 600)
Click to expand...
You could use Steam big screen mode, it's a total of one click.


#127

fade

fade

Gilgamesh said:
Uh no?
Plug in an HDMI cable (like you did your console), turn on the PC (like turning on the console), select your game (like navigating your console menu), start playing (no different than your console).

I don't think you know how to make it sit up and bark like a dog. Sounds to me like you make it needlessly complicated.
Click to expand...

oookay. better go quit my job then. I'm not speaking from ignorance. Last time I hooked a PC up to my TV, it didn't go anything like that. But whatever. Maybe the experience has improved since last time I tried. It really doesn't matter, because I'm not not going to buy a PC to attach to my TV for lots of other reasons, like cost, and the fact that that computer becomes unusable when people are watching TV, unless I go through the effort to make it so. In any case you're welcome to use yours and I'll still enjoy the way I do things.


#128

Far

Far

If I can't transfer psn network purchases to the ps4 that'll suck but it's not going to be a deal breaker for me. I dont plan on getting rid of the ps3 I currently own any time soon so I should have access to them that way for a while no?


#129

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

fade said:
oookay. better go quit my job then. I'm not speaking from ignorance. Last time I hooked a PC up to my TV, it didn't go anything like that. But whatever. Maybe the experience has improved since last time I tried. It really doesn't matter, because I'm not not going to buy a PC to attach to my TV for lots of other reasons, like cost, and the fact that that computer becomes unusable when people are watching TV, unless I go through the effort to make it so. In any case you're welcome to use yours and I'll still enjoy the way I do things.
Click to expand...
You're right. It's changed. You're also welcome to enjoy things they way they are.
As for cost, I already addressed as did Bowielee that the cost can easily be offset or even cheaper to use a gaming PC as a console.
As for unusable when people are watching TV, I dunno what to tell you, we have TVs in the bedrooms for when someone wants to watch something while one TV is being used.
I'm just simply explaining how easy it is to use a gaming PC as a better console for those who thought it might be difficult. Your response was contrary to that point, so I had to address it as incorrect.


#130

fade

fade

Eh, I don't think it's incorrect. I mean, I'm not talking about ages or generations ago. I'm talking about the last time I hooked up an HDMI projector to a Windows 7 laptop. Yeah, I know that's not quite the same because it's a temporary connection.

But whatever, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'm simply not buying a new pricey PC when I can wait for a console a year into its life and expect it to flawlessly run the games I buy for it, both from the past library and years to come--with no thought about it whatsoever. That's really what I was talking about anyway, more than the physical connection to the TV or the controller. In a year, a new PC game may not run optimally on the gaming PC, and while upgrading the PC may be easy, I just don't want to have to deal with it.


#131

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

I'm of a mind that, like the PS3, this is something I see no point in getting for the first three years it's out. Sony can work out their problems on someone else's dollar.


#132

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

fade said:
Eh, I don't think it's incorrect. I mean, I'm not talking about ages or generations ago. I'm talking about the last time I hooked up an HDMI projector to a Windows 7 laptop. Yeah, I know that's not quite the same because it's a temporary connection.
Click to expand...
Answered yourself there. An HD TV through an HDMI cable on a PC is identical to hooking up a console. It's not difficult.

fade said:
But whatever, I don't really have a dog in this fight.
Click to expand...
This should have been where your post ended, because everything that follows is pretty much poking the very dog you say isn't fighting.

fade said:
I'm simply not buying a new pricey PC when I can wait for a console a year into its life and expect it to flawlessly run the games I buy for it, both from the past library and years to come--with no thought about it whatsoever.
Click to expand...
A PC will run the past library flawlessly, as for running the future games for years to come, there have been plenty of issues with consoles running games with serious lag issues and frame rate problems. There's nothing you can do to allievate that problem on a console, with a PC, you simply upgrade some ram (as cheap as a game) or buy a video card (1-2 generations past the current will run anything fine and won't be expensive either) and your framerate and graphics problems will not persist. So I don't see how a console will be the answer to running all games flawlessly.

fade said:
That's really what I was talking about anyway, more than the physical connection to the TV or the controller. In a year, a new PC game may not run optimally on the gaming PC, and while upgrading the PC may be easy, I just don't want to have to deal with it.
Click to expand...
The thing you're really talking about is not wanting to deal with it. (That's totally fine, it's a point I wouldn't have even looked at twice because that's opinion and not a fact that can be debated) It has nothing to do with a PC being more difficult or not as user friendly as a console. Upgrading ram or a video card (takes about 10 minutes to change on a PC), which is going to be the majority of the problem you'll ever have during a console's lifecycle is not difficult, and will always run games more flawlessly than a console trying to keep up with games being made on a much higher tech than they can produce, then having to downgrade the quality and fluidity when it is converted to console.

Again I 100% respect the fact that maybe you just don't want to install hardware every 4-5yrs into a gaming PCs lifecycle, but don't try and cover it up by saying it's hard or that a console will always run games better, because neither of those are true at all.


#133

Shakey

Shakey

Jesus. This is why tablet gaming is becoming so popular. It doesn't matter what version of ios device you buy, if you buy an ios device all the games you get will transfer up to your next one. If you buy a game on an android device, it will transfer up to every android device you buy. I get that they're going to a new hardware platform, but they can take the time to build an emulator to allow old game purchases to port over to the new one if they really want. They're not some back woods garage company. It's fucking Sony.


#134

fade

fade

Gilgamesh said:
Answered yourself there. An HD TV through an HDMI cable on a PC is identical to hooking up a console. It's not difficult.
Click to expand...
Again, not the experience I've had. I never said "difficult". Futzing about != difficult, just annoying.

Gilgamesh said:
This should have been where your post ended, because everything that follows is pretty much poking the very dog you say isn't fighting.
Click to expand...
I... don't agree with this at all! I can not really care about an argument and still defend what I said. Why shouldn't I?

Gilgamesh said:
Again I 100% respect the fact that maybe you just don't want to install hardware every 4-5yrs into a gaming PCs lifecycle, but don't try and cover it up by saying it's hard or that a console will always run games better, because neither of those are true at all.
Click to expand...
I never once said that consoles run games better. That's silly. I said I don't have to think about it and I can flop back on my couch in pretty much every post I made. I never said anything was "hard" either. Nope. Just read all 3 posts. Never said either of those things. In fact, I said it was easy right there in that last post! I'm well aware of how much effort it takes to upgrade RAM and video cards. I used to run a side business building PCs as far back as 1994. I said I just didn't want to deal with it--which was the entire point of a console ("dealing" meaning physical/financial/whatever effort)! I said that from the very first post! Jeez, I didn't cover anything up.


#135

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

fade said:
Again, not the experience I've had. I never said "difficult". Futzing about != difficult, just annoying.



I... don't agree with this at all! I can not really care about an argument and still have it. Why can't I?



I never once said that consoles run games better. That's silly. I said I don't have to think about it and I can flop back on my couch in pretty much every post I made. I never said anything was "hard" either. Nope. Just read all 3 posts. Never said either of those things. In fact, I said it was easy right there in that last post! I'm well aware of how much effort it takes to upgrade RAM and video cards. I used to run a side business building PCs as far back as 1994. I said I just didn't want to deal with it--which was the entire point of a console! I said that from the very first post! Jeez, I didn't cover anything up.
Click to expand...
-shrug- My point was that PC gaming is just as cheap (in the long run), just as easy, and in many cases superior to console gaming. Your response is that you want to -flop back on the couch- and not -hassle with all that- whatever either of those statements mean. I suppose there's nothing left to discuss then.


#136

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Gilgamesh said:
I suppose there's nothing left to discuss then.
Click to expand...
That was the case several posts ago.


#137

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Quotemander Prime said:
That was the case several posts ago.
Click to expand...
Yep, guess I was wrong.


#138

fade

fade

I wasn't really interested in a PC vs. console war anyway. I started off describing my personal preference. I believe I was a bit less vague, but allow me to place specifics on it. I've spent less than $450 on my PS3 over 4 years--probably much less if I count sellbacks and the console I sold to buy it. I've never once had an issue running a console game for the console it was branded for on any console I've ever owned, and I'll keep the PS3 another few years. A PC is great gaming machine--but not for me. I was never arguing about gaming superiority, but about use cases. I'm not a heavy gamer. I want to invest less than zero mental, physical, or financial effort on the console (regardless of how hard or easy it is), because it has roughly zero bearing on the rest of my life.


#139

Bowielee

Bowielee

It's literally more of a pain in the ass to play my PS3 than my PC games. I start from the same place (my couch) and to play a PS3 game, I have to go to the shelf and get a disk, put it in the system. With my PC, I sit on my couch, click on steam and launch whatever game I feel like playing.[DOUBLEPOST=1361513744][/DOUBLEPOST]Really, if Valve came out with a console that allowed you to use standard graphics cards, I would never use any other system.


#140

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

fade said:
I wasn't really interested in a PC vs. console war anyway. I started off describing my personal preference. I believe I was a bit less vague, but allow me to place specifics on it. I've spent less than $450 on my PS3 over 4 years--probably much less if I count sellbacks and the console I sold to buy it. I've never once had an issue running a console game for the console it was branded for on any console I've ever owned, and I'll keep the PS3 another few years. A PC is great gaming machine--but not for me. I was never arguing about gaming superiority, but about use cases. I'm not a heavy gamer. I want to invest less than zero mental, physical, or financial effort on the console (regardless of how hard or easy it is), because it has roughly zero bearing on the rest of my life.
Click to expand...
If that's how we look at it I spent less than $500 after sellbacks on my previous gaming system for the newer one. I've upgraded parts maybe once a year at what I would have spent on new games (and instead bought games for next to nothing off STEAM/GoG/GamersGate). I've purchased a game on the PS3/Xbox that just has non-stop fps issues in heavy gameplay and sold it for a copy of the PC version (for cheaper) and it played much much better (Dead Space is an example if one is required). As for use cases? A PC is always going to indefinitely have more uses over a console.

As for investing less than zero mental/physical effort? That's a perfectly understandable opinion, though I fail to personally see how 10-15 minutes to change out some hardware every 4-5 years is so tedious. As for financial? Maybe I'm just more cash savvy. Not sure how else to respond to it.

Nice touch with the -zero bearing on the rest of your life- line though.


#141

fade

fade

I really don't know what you mean. Did you take that as some kind of attack? I certainly didn't mean it as anything other than its verbatim meaning.


#142

Frank

Frank

Covar said:
I have 24GB of DDR3, but I don't know how that compares speedwise.
Click to expand...
Considering no games that exist ever use that much (most don't use more than 2-4), I'd say faster is better.


#143

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Frank said:
Considering no games that exist ever use that much (most don't use more than 2-4), I'd say faster is better.
Click to expand...
That much ram and a good processor would be very helpful for streaming the game on something like Twitch.tv or recording a Let's Play.


#144

Eriol

Eriol

Frank said:
Considering no games that exist ever use that much (most don't use more than 2-4), I'd say faster is better.
Click to expand...
Most can't use more than 4GB because they're 32-bit executables. Their address space hits a wall at that point. There are tricks to use more than that amount of memory on a 32-bit process (look to the server days before the 64-bit transition) but that never hit consumer-level products. And even though 90% of us have 64-bit processors, if you're on XP (XP-64 is a bastard that shall not be spoken of) you can't use 64-bit binaries. Thus, everything is still compiled for 32-bit, and the 64-bit people can run those too.

I will celebrate when I no longer see 32-bit executables in my task manager.


#145

GasBandit

GasBandit

I just wanted to chime in with the undeniable truth that if you prefer consoles over PCs, you should be put down before you breed.


#146

GasBandit

GasBandit

Critical Miss weighs in.



#147

MindDetective

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
I just wanted to chime in with the undeniable truth that if you prefer consoles over PCs, you should be put down before you breed.
Click to expand...
Hahaha, too bad for you!


#148

fade

fade

GasBandit said:
I just wanted to chime in with the undeniable truth that if you prefer consoles over PCs, you should be put down before you breed.
Click to expand...
Too late. I suppose we could perform really, really late term abortions.


#149

Espy

Espy

PC VS CONSOLE WAR=
oh_god_shut_up.gif


#150

GasBandit

GasBandit

MindDetective said:
Hahaha, too bad for you!
Click to expand...
fade said:
Too late. I suppose we could perform really, really late term abortions.
Click to expand...
Exterminatus. Only way to be sure.



#151

Frank

Frank

Espy said:
PC VS CONSOLE WAR=
View attachment 10329
Click to expand...
Yeah, basically this.


#152

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

*looks for a Chaos Marines version of the COME AT ME BRO pic*

*fails*

*mutters and wanders away*


#153

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy



#154

Frank

Frank

You people are out of your minds if that Capcom Deep Down demo was only marginally better. Even the Killzone demo showed off better visuals than anything out right now.


#155

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Frank said:
Even the Killzone demo showed off better visuals than anything out right now.
Click to expand...
Killzone has never lacked for awesome visuals (for a console game), it's just lacked for a compelling reason to play it over every other FPS. It's the perfect example of how pretty visuals don't actually sell games when they're literally the only thing it's got going.


#156

Bowielee

Bowielee

Not when compared to playing Crysis 3 on a PC :p

Honestly though, in regards to the rest of the whole PC vs console thing. The only thing I was reacting to was the implication that you couldn't treat your PC AS a console, which is simply not the case. Especially now that Steam has "big picture" mode. It pretty much IS a console that just happens to be on your PC (and has way better graphics :p)[DOUBLEPOST=1361560127][/DOUBLEPOST]I'm just looking forward to playing the next Infamous game without all the frame rate drop.


#157

Frank

Frank

Bowielee said:
Not when compared to playing Crysis 3 on a PC :p
Click to expand...
Man, I'm a PC gamer. I love my PC. It's relatively high end even (or was a year ago). I played Crysis 1 pretty well maxed out (that I can remember) and the slightly less visually impressive Crysis 2 maxed out.

It didn't look as good as this engine.



Now, if they actually pull this off in something not just being a demo for a game engine then it'll really be something.[DOUBLEPOST=1361560587][/DOUBLEPOST]Dorkly's naked eye is broken.



#158

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I'm sorry, but compared to the leaps in graphics that were made between previous eras like NES to SNES or from PS1 to PS2, it is marginal. I'm not saying it does't look great, but honestly, once you take away those vista shots, it's really no different to what we already have or have seen.


#159

Espy

Espy

Good lord those graphics are... wow. I'm sorry, thats a huge leap forward, the detail compared to whats on the PS3 is far superior.


I mean, WOW.


#160

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

PC/console is one of those stupid, pointless rivalries like Nintendo/Sega or PC/Mac. Play on whatever you want and who gives a shit what anyone else thinks.


#161

MindDetective

MindDetective

Bowielee said:
It pretty much IS a console that just happens to be on your PC
Click to expand...
Can I navigate the OS with a controller or do I need a mouse and/or keyboard on my coffee table?


#162

Espy

Espy

CynicismKills said:
PC/console is one of those stupid, pointless rivalries like Nintendo/Sega or PC/Mac. Play on whatever you want and who gives a shit what anyone else thinks.
Click to expand...
obamafistbump.jpg


#163

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

MindDetective said:
Can I navigate the OS with a controller or do I need a mouse and/or keyboard on my coffee table?
Click to expand...
Odds are you'd have to download some periphery software to allow the controller to be used outside of games that come with an option for it by default. I used to have a program that did that, but I can't remember the name.


#164

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

CynicismKills said:
Odds are you'd have to download some periphery software to allow the controller to be used outside of games that come with an option for it by default. I used to have a program that did that, but I can't remember the name.
Click to expand...
Steam is fully operational with a controller, you could have it set to auto start.


#165

Bowielee

Bowielee

MindDetective said:
Can I navigate the OS with a controller or do I need a mouse and/or keyboard on my coffee table?
Click to expand...
The way i have it set up, I do have a wireless mouse and keyboard that are on my coffee table. I also have a completely separate monitor at my computer desk with it's own mouse and keyboard so I can also use it as an office computer. However, steam itself is fully usable with a controller with no extra programs.[DOUBLEPOST=1361562179][/DOUBLEPOST]
CynicismKills said:
PC/console is one of those stupid, pointless rivalries like Nintendo/Sega or PC/Mac. Play on whatever you want and who gives a shit what anyone else thinks.
Click to expand...
The thing is, I have no rivalry. I own both a PS3 and a WiiU. I love consoles. I'm just opposed to this stupid idea that PC platforms are some sort of complex mystery machines.


#166

Frank

Frank

Bowielee said:
The thing is, I have no rivalry. I own both a PS3 and a WiiU. I love consoles. I'm just opposed to this stupid idea that PC platforms are some sort of complex mystery machines.
Click to expand...
For sure.

Big Picture Mode was a brilliant idea.


#167

MindDetective

MindDetective

So, as long as I:

  • Download and set up Steam myself
  • Set up the OS to auto-start Steam myself
  • Troubleshoot any video, sound, driver, Steam, OS, or other issues myself
  • Replace whatever hardware every few years myself, given that I...
  • ...research which video cards (and/or audio cards and/or processor and/or memory) are the best choices to upgrade to
Then I can enjoy the benefits of better graphics on the rare occasion that I have time and solitude to play video games? I probably would spend more time troubleshooting than actually playing these days. I'll take the all-in-one magic box, thanks.[DOUBLEPOST=1361562548][/DOUBLEPOST]
Bowielee said:
I'm just opposed to this stupid idea that PC platforms are some sort of complex mystery machines.
Click to expand...
I used to build my own computers once upon a time. I don't any more. Now I prefer to use my time for other things. I know I could do it. I could also grow my own vegetables. Some things are not worth it to me any more to do myself.


#168

fade

fade

I personally don't care what anyone else plays on. I just posted why I liked consoles, and why I liked the PS4. It was never meant to be interpreted as an attack on PCs, other than that I personally didn't feel like sitting at one again when I got home. I should've just left it at that, regardless of how easy it is to treat a PC as a console. Certainly don't think of PCs as complicated by any stretch of the word.


#169

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

Bowielee said:
The thing is, I have no rivalry. I own both a PS3 and a WiiU. I love consoles. I'm just opposed to this stupid idea that PC platforms are some sort of complex mystery machines.
Click to expand...
I agree there, but looking at it from the point of someone who wants to just sit down and play a game, it's easier to pick up a console. You can buy a pre-built PC, but those tend to have a big extra chunk of cash tagged on as opposed to building yourself (which can have its own inherent issues). On top of that, if you don't know much about PCs you'll either be buying blind or spending time doing research to make sure you're getting what you need out of it. Again, snagging a console is just easier.

As for folks who have both consoles and a PC, it's just a matter of preference. I don't think anyone in this thread is particularly mystified by how a PC works/is upgraded.


#170

MindDetective

MindDetective

fade said:
I personally don't care what anyone else plays on. I just posted why I liked consoles, and why I liked the PS4. It was never meant to be interpreted as an attack on PCs, other than that I personally didn't feel like sitting at one again when I got home. I should've just left it at that, regardless of how easy it is to treat a PC as a console.
Click to expand...
It is easy for the console gamers to say, "Go for it PC gamers! have fun!" It doesn't affect you or me what they choose. But PC gamers can be a bit snobby about the quality of their gaming experience. Some even argue that consoles are dragging down their own gaming experiences and gaming options. Mostly I think said people are not really considering that other people have different gaming needs and desires than they have.


#171

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

The replies in the past few hours here have been hilarious.

There is no PC vs Consoles -war- because there is no fight. If you think that the PC will only marginally be better than a console in terms of running games, you need a better PC. Comparing PC vs Console to PS3 vs XBox vs Wii etc is silly because the difference between consoles was always minimal, but the difference between PC and consoles is much larger (Skyrim if I want to be -snobby- is just a tiny example).

Oh and the reason you got debated fade wasn't because you thought that using your PC as a console was hard, but because you implied that you'd have to sit at a computer screen/desk instead of on a couch/tv. Then made it seem like it would be such a hassle/annoyance to use it as such.


#172

MindDetective

MindDetective

Gilgamesh said:
The replies in the past few hours here have been hilarious.

There is no PC vs Consoles -war- because there is no fight. If you think that the PC will only marginally be better than a console in terms of running games, you need a better PC. Comparing PC vs Console to PS3 vs XBox vs Wii etc is silly because the difference between consoles was always minimal, but the difference between PC and consoles is much larger (Skyrim if I want to be -snobby- is just a tiny example).

Oh and the reason you got debated fade wasn't because you thought that using your PC as a console was hard, but because you implied that you'd have to sit at a computer screen/desk instead of on a couch/tv. Then made it seem like it would be such a hassle/annoyance to use it as such.
Click to expand...
Nobody made the claim that the difference was trivial. fade did not say it was hard. I could have missed it, so go ahead and quote the people who said as much.

For myself, and I think for fade, it is about creating a very low barrier to entry. Between work and family, I get a chance to play less than an hour a week on average. If I have any annoyance (need to update drivers, Steam isn't working right, XBox Live needs to update) then I am going to go do something else. Yes, PCs are more powerful machines. Yes you can, with some effort, make them very much like a console. No, it isn't worth the time and effort for me to customize my own set up when the amount of time I have to even play games is as low as it is. The only way I am playing any games is if it is ready to go for me.


#173

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

The majority of this thread proves there is a fight over which is better, the same sort of fight that was pulled over every competing entertainment platform ever, from SNES and Genesis to HD-DVD and BluRay (or hell, even Betamax and VHS). The major difference here is this one's not going to end. All in all it's just another dick-waving contest.


#174

MindDetective

MindDetective

CynicismKills said:
The majority of this thread proves there is a fight over which is better, the same sort of fight that was pulled over every competing entertainment platform ever, from SNES and Genesis to HD-DVD and BluRay (or hell, even Betamax and VHS). The major difference here is this one's not going to end. All in all it's just another dick-waving contest.
Click to expand...
Mine is lazier than yours?


#175

GasBandit

GasBandit

MindDetective said:
It is easy for the console gamers to say, "Go for it PC gamers! have fun!" It doesn't affect you or me what they choose. But PC gamers can be a bit snobby about the quality of their gaming experience. Some even argue that consoles are dragging down their own gaming experiences and gaming options. Mostly I think said people are not really considering that other people have different gaming needs and desires than they have.
Click to expand...
The major problem I have with console games is they ARE dragging down pc gaming - in the form that developers want to release their games on multiple platforms and code for the least common denominator. Thus, the PC is subjected to shitty console ports galore.


#176

MindDetective

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
The major problem I have with console games is they ARE dragging down pc gaming - in the form that developers want to release their games on multiple platforms and code for the least common denominator. Thus, the PC is subjected to shitty console ports galore.
Click to expand...
You still have lots of gaming options out there, I think. Has the diversity changed, perhaps, to include more crap in addition to the good stuff?


#177

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

CynicismKills said:
The majority of this thread proves there is a fight over which is better, the same sort of fight that was pulled over every competing entertainment platform ever, from SNES and Genesis to HD-DVD and BluRay (or hell, even Betamax and VHS). The major difference here is this one's not going to end. All in all it's just another dick-waving contest.
Click to expand...
Except BluRay was better than DVD, SNES vs Genesis was a minimal difference so it doesn't apply. Sometimes in a dick-waving contest, one side really does have a bigger more useful dick.


#178

MindDetective

MindDetective

Gilgamesh said:
Except BluRay was better than DVD, SNES vs Genesis was a minimal difference so it doesn't apply. Sometimes in a dick-waving contest, one side really does have a bigger more useful dick.
Click to expand...
You're the only one whipping it out, as far as I can tell.


#179

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

MindDetective said:
You're the only one whipping it out, as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...
I was referring to past battles that you mentioned. However yes, I don't mind explaining how much better PC gaming is over console when there are facts to back it up. I would never get into a debate about PS3 vs XBOX360 because there's such a slight difference.


#180

MindDetective

MindDetective

Gilgamesh said:
I was referring to past battles that you mentioned. However yes, I don't mind explaining how much better PC gaming is over console when there are facts to back it up.
Click to expand...
Nobody thinks otherwise. It is like trying to argue that apples are bigger than cherries. To me, it doesn't matter.


#181

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

GasBandit said:
The major problem I have with console games is they ARE dragging down pc gaming - in the form that developers want to release their games on multiple platforms and code for the least common denominator. Thus, the PC is subjected to shitty console ports galore.
Click to expand...
The reason why they make console games and port to PC is because, for the most part, AAA developers make more money on consoles still. Until that changes, console-first-then-PC is unlikely to change.

Why you hatin' on the free market, GB?


#182

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

Gaming is about entertainment, bottom line. If you get that from PC games over console, good for you. If you get it from console over PC, good for you. PC gaming is dragged down by elitist assbags as much as console gaming is dragged down by fratboy dudebros, and game development has become so much of a business over the last decade that regardless of your platform of choice, you're getting shit on by devs and publishers alike while you drag each other through the mud over who's the master race.


#183

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

MindDetective said:
Nobody thinks otherwise. It is like trying to argue that apples are bigger than cherries. To me, it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
k


#184

Frank

Frank

Here's something I'm reading that is absolutely baffling to me about the whole reveal: Why are people so hung up on what the console itself will look like? Who fucking cares? It's going to be a black box that sits tucked somewhere on your entertainment center. You're barely going to touch the thing or even acknowledge it beyond plugging in a controller to charge it.


#185

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
Here's something I'm reading that is absolutely baffling to me about the whole reveal: Why are people so hung up on what the console itself will look like? Who fucking cares? It's going to be a black box that sits tucked somewhere on your entertainment center. You're barely going to touch the thing or even acknowledge it beyond plugging in a controller to charge it.
Click to expand...
Because if it's Black they'll want to know when then can buy the Red, then the White, then the Blue version! I think only PS and Nintendo were guilty of this, Xbox has always been Black or White commercially hasn't it?

(Wait no, there was the Red Resident Evil version, and the Green Halo Edition, fuck all the consoles have done this nonsense)


#186

Frank

Frank

There's like a dozen funky coloured 360s. In fact, there are waaaaaaay more fucked up coloured 360s than there are PS3s. It seemed like every big game had a limited edition coloured 360.




#187

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
There's like a dozen funky coloured 360s.
Click to expand...
Yeah I realized that and edited it into my post, I mean why? Do you really have to match your console to your decor? Then again people are coloring Washing Machines so why not right?


#188

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

That R2 xbox was so sexy...


#189

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

This article discusses PS4 and used games.

It sounds a lot less concrete than from that other article. The guy who was being interviewed doesn't really know what's going to be happening; only his expectation.

Wii U, you'd better get some good games if you and I are going to be friends someday.


#190

Bowielee

Bowielee

MindDetective said:
So, as long as I:

  • Download and set up Steam myself
  • Set up the OS to auto-start Steam myself
  • Troubleshoot any video, sound, driver, Steam, OS, or other issues myself
  • Replace whatever hardware every few years myself, given that I...
  • ...research which video cards (and/or audio cards and/or processor and/or memory) are the best choices to upgrade to
Then I can enjoy the benefits of better graphics on the rare occasion that I have time and solitude to play video games? I probably would spend more time troubleshooting than actually playing these days. I'll take the all-in-one magic box, thanks.[DOUBLEPOST=1361562548][/DOUBLEPOST]

I used to build my own computers once upon a time. I don't any more. Now I prefer to use my time for other things. I know I could do it. I could also grow my own vegetables. Some things are not worth it to me any more to do myself.
Click to expand...
If you really want a magic all in one box, the PC wins in that arena. I can't do my taxes on a PS3 :p

Again, I need to stress, I'm not even saying that PCs are the only legitimate gaming route. I love my PS3 and my WiiU. If you don't know how to boot up a computer and click on an icon in today's day and age, I don't know what to tell you.

As for bullet point 3, unless you're running a computer that's 10+ years old, this is rarely, if ever a problem.


#191

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Quotemander Prime said:
This article discusses PS4 and used games.

It sounds a lot less concrete than from that other article. The guy who was being interviewed doesn't really know what's going to be happening; only his expectation.

Wii U, you'd better get some good games if you and I are going to be friends someday.
Click to expand...
It sounds like there's internal disagreement at Sony about what to do. That's not a good sign.[DOUBLEPOST=1361569421][/DOUBLEPOST]
Bowielee said:
I can't do my taxes on a PS3 :p
Click to expand...
Sounds like an opportunity if I've ever heard one.


#192

Bowielee

Bowielee

I also feel the need to point out that with today's consoles, you still have to do many of the same things that you have to do with PCs. Wait for patches to download, do system software upgrades, etc.

I still have a block of memory on my PS3 that I wouldn't be able to free up without reformatting the entire system due to poor programming on Sony's part.


#193

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Bowielee said:
I also feel the need to point out that with today's consoles, you still have to do many of the same things that you have to do with PCs. Wait for patches to download, do system software upgrades, etc.
Click to expand...
Thank god the Xbox dashboard doesn't update as frequently as Steam does. And that I've never stuck a disk or opened a game client on my Xbox and gotten a C++ crash notification error. Or ever been unable to play a 360 game due to a weird collusion of GPU and Mobo drivers.


#194

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

SpecialKO said:
Thank god the Xbox dashboard doesn't update as frequently as Steam does.
Click to expand...
Except you can play games while STEAM updates unlike Xbox/PS3.

SpecialKO said:
And that I've never stuck a disk or opened a game client on my Xbox and gotten a C++ crash notification error.
Click to expand...
I've never had that issue with a PC either.

SpecialKO said:
Or ever been unable to play a 360 game due to a weird collusion of GPU and Mobo drivers.
Click to expand...
How old have the PCs you been playing on been?

For posterity: Xbox RROD and PS3 YLOD.


#195

GasBandit

GasBandit

MindDetective said:
You still have lots of gaming options out there, I think. Has the diversity changed, perhaps, to include more crap in addition to the good stuff?
Click to expand...
Here's an example - Call of Duty used to be PC exclusive. Then they started developing it jointly for consoles (or even as console exclusive for COD3), its quality suffered. It went from one of the most prestigious first person titles to the laughing stock of the internet, synonymous with dudebro/foulmouthed kid gamers. And that's just a sampling. Many dedicated PC developers, up to and including the grand daddy of the PC gaming boom, id software, have been lured away from PC to consoles by the siren song of pandering to the least common denominator for higher sales numbers. So yes, the amount have crap has increased, but the amount of gold has decreased as the forges were repurposed for manure production.

This picture gets bandied about a lot -



You know whose fault that is? Consoles. You know whose fault consoles are? Console gamers.

SpecialKO said:
Why you hatin' on the free market, GB?
Click to expand...
I'm not hatin' on the "free market," I'm hatin' on people. Console tards. Which I suppose, barely qualify as people.


#196

Bowielee

Bowielee

SpecialKO said:
Thank god the Xbox dashboard doesn't update as frequently as Steam does. And that I've never stuck a disk or opened a game client on my Xbox and gotten a C++ crash notification error. Or ever been unable to play a 360 game due to a weird collusion of GPU and Mobo drivers.
Click to expand...
I haven't had that problem in literally years. Nvidia auto updates drivers now, as does my motherboard.


#197

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

All this sharing shit on the PS4 sounds like they want to turn its home into X-Box Live. And Sony thinks that's a good thing.


#198

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Gilgamesh said:
Except you can play games while STEAM updates unlike Xbox/PS3.
Click to expand...
Thank god for the PS4. Catching up the PCs everyday! :awesome:


I've never had that issue with a PC either.
Click to expand...
Most recently, happened to me during Firefall's beta and when I tried to update League of Legends.

How old have the PCs you been playing on been?.
Click to expand...
Brand new, i5-3870K on a z68 board using a Radeon HD 3850 running Windows 7. Runs Far Cry 3 on High like butter, but Civ 5 decided that it didn't support enough DX11 features and ran it at a paltry 25 fps with flickering textures.


#199

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

SpecialKO said:
Thank god for the PS4. Catching up the PCs everyday! :awesome:




Most recently, happened to me during Firefall's beta and when I tried to update League of Legends.



Brand new, i5-3870K on a z68 board using a Radeon HD 3850 running Windows 7. Runs Far Cry 3 on High like butter, but Civ 5 decided that it didn't support enough DX11 features and ran it at a paltry 25 fps with flickering textures.
Click to expand...
Welp, I guess you just have the kind of luck like people who get a RROD on their Xbox within the first year vs the guy who still is using his gen1 Xbox360 with no issues.


#200

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Bowielee said:
I haven't had that problem in literally years. Nvidia auto updates drivers now, as does my motherboard.
Click to expand...
Going by a random roll around nvidia support forums and neowin, it sounds like others are not having your experience.[DOUBLEPOST=1361570537][/DOUBLEPOST]
Gilgamesh said:
Welp, I guess you just have the kind of luck like people who get a RROD on their Xbox within the first year vs the guy who still is using his gen1 Xbox360 with no issues.
Click to expand...
Actually the C++ error was pretty widespread for both the Firefall beta and the LoL build at the time. A minority of players, sure, but it wasn't exactly 1 in a million.


#201

Bowielee

Bowielee

SpecialKO said:
Going by a random roll around nvidia support forums and neowin, it sounds like others are not having your experience.[DOUBLEPOST=1361570537][/DOUBLEPOST]

Actually the C++ error was pretty widespread for both the Firefall beta and the LoL build at the time. A minority of players, sure, but it wasn't exactly 1 in a million.
Click to expand...
http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-3-Support/bd-p/22035


#202

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Rock Band.png


So people like their consoles and other people hate that people like their consoles. There, off-topic over, can we move onto how bad the PS4 is going to be?


#203

Bowielee

Bowielee

Quotemander Prime said:
View attachment 10332

So people like their consoles and other people hate that people like their consoles. There, off-topic over, can we move onto how bad the PS4 is going to be?
Click to expand...
This misassertion of what I'm saying is what's pissing me off more than anything. The only one actually claiming that consoles are worthless is GB.


#204

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
This misassertion of what I'm saying is what's pissing me off more than anything. The only one actually claiming that consoles are worthless is GB.
Click to expand...
You're the exception.


#205

Bowielee

Bowielee

Quotemander Prime said:
You're the exception.
Click to expand...
That's not even what Gilgamesh is saying.


#206

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Bowielee said:
http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-3-Support/bd-p/22035
Click to expand...
Seeing as how most of those people seem to have been able to fix their problems by using the rebuild library option in the PS3 settings menu, those seem like very nice problems to have versus the issues I've had on a PC.


#207

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
That's not even what Gilgamesh is saying.
Click to expand...
I keep trying to write a serious response to this, but it keeps devolving into jokes about the impressions given by how Gilg situates his italics when arguing with fade.


#208

Bowielee

Bowielee

Whelp, I'm tired of being accused of being some sort of fanboy, so I'm out.


#209

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
Whelp, I'm tired of being accused of being some sort of fanboy, so I'm out.
Click to expand...
But the PS4!


#210

GasBandit

GasBandit

Quotemander Prime said:
So people like their consoles and other people hate that people like their consoles. There, off-topic over, can we move onto how bad the PS4 is going to be?
Click to expand...
Let me see, think I have the proper response down here somewhere... ah here it is...

Fuck you with a broomstick.


#211

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Let me see, think I have the proper response down here somewhere... ah here it is...

Fuck you with a broomstick.
Click to expand...
Is that a reaction to paraphrasing what you already said, or do you feel misinterpreted?

Anyway, enjoy your railroad tunnel movies, on whatever platform you choose. You're welcome :thumbsup:.


#212

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

SpecialKO said:
Actually the C++ error was pretty widespread for both the Firefall beta and the LoL build at the time. A minority of players, sure, but it wasn't exactly 1 in a million.
Click to expand...
I'd point you to the first year of Xbox360 and PS3 release issues, but it's arguing a moot point. Your issues in the past are as abundant as console owners have had with thier own systems. There's literally no major issue here.


#213

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Gilgamesh said:
I'd point you to the first year of Xbox360 and PS3 release issues, but it's arguing a moot point. Your issues in the past are as abundant as console owners have had with thier own systems. There's literally no major issue here.
Click to expand...
Except possibly that Microsoft manages to suck no matter the platform.


#214

Frank

Frank

Gilgamesh said:
I'd point you to the first year of Xbox360 and PS3 release issues, but it's arguing a moot point. Your issues in the past are as abundant as console owners have had with thier own systems. There's literally no major issue here.
Click to expand...
I don't think anything can match the RROD issue that plagued the 360 through multiple iterations. The failure rate was nigh criminal.


#215

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

Frank said:
I don't think anything can match the RROD issue that plagued the 360 through multiple iterations. The failure rate was nigh criminal.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the fact that it even happened on the Elites and beyond is baffling to me. When my Elite died I was livid.


#216

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

CynicismKills said:
Yeah, the fact that it even happened on the Elites and beyond is baffling to me. When my Elite died I was livid.
Click to expand...
It's because the Elite was still basically the same system, just a new production run. The actual physical changes necessary to combat the real problem didn't happen until they released the S and re-built the motherboard around a new spec.


#217

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Really, it comes down to this. Consoles are like a BMW. Very nice to drive, dependable, will get you where you need to go and do it with comfort. The PC is like a custom italian supercar. Sure, it requires more maintenance, it requires you to fine tune gear ratios and weight distributions, but it appeals to people that want to get the most out of their machine, and tear around a track at 200mph with the roar of an engine.

Does that make the supercar drivers better? Well, clearly yes, but we try not to make a big deal about it. We all share the same road.


#218

Espy

Espy

It's actually way more like:
tumblr_meit12HiQB1qc91k6o1_500.gif


#219

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

Ravenpoe said:
Really, it comes down to this. Consoles are like a BMW. Very nice to drive, dependable, will get you where you need to go and do it with comfort. The PC is like a custom italian supercar. Sure, it requires more maintenance, it requires you to fine tune gear ratios and weight distributions, but it appeals to people that want to get the most out of their machine, and tear around a track at 200mph with the roar of an engine.

Does that make the supercar drivers better? Well, clearly yes, but we try not to make a big deal about it. We all share the same road.
Click to expand...
And yet those Italian supercars keep getting wrapped around telephone poles.

Edit: Funny story. I went on Google images and looked up "Italian car accidents." The first image was Snooki in a neckbrace. I guess I misspelled "car accident" as "train wreck."


#220

MindDetective

MindDetective

Ravenpoe said:
we try not to make a big deal about it.
Click to expand...
Say what?


#221

redthirtyone

redthirtyone

CynicismKills said:
Yeah, the fact that it even happened on the Elites and beyond is baffling to me. When my Elite died I was livid.
Click to expand...
My brand new Elite with the updated (Falcon?) chipset RRoD'd in just SIX days :mad:


#222

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

CynicismKills said:
And yet those Italian supercars keep getting wrapped around telephone poles.
Click to expand...
It's my experience that crashes are usually the result of bad drivers.


#223

figmentPez

figmentPez

Eriol said:
Most can't use more than 4GB because they're 32-bit executables. Their address space hits a wall at that point. There are tricks to use more than that amount of memory on a 32-bit process (look to the server days before the 64-bit transition) but that never hit consumer-level products. And even though 90% of us have 64-bit processors, if you're on XP (XP-64 is a bastard that shall not be spoken of) you can't use 64-bit binaries. Thus, everything is still compiled for 32-bit, and the 64-bit people can run those too.

I will celebrate when I no longer see 32-bit executables in my task manager.
Click to expand...
Could this generation of consoles be what pushes the final shift to 64-bit binaries for games? If the PS4 and the next Xbox both have 8+ GB of RAM and developers are making games that use all of that RAM, then it might end up being too much extra work to re-jigger the code for 32-bit XP (either that or PCs will end up with a port of the WiiU port of the game *shudder*)


#224

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

PS4 console's look is revealed.

All people who bet that would be a big black box, collect your winnings.


#225

Espy

Espy

Quotemander Prime said:
PS4 console's look is revealed.

All people who bet that would be a big black box, collect your winnings.
Click to expand...
Where are you seeing this?


#226

Bowielee

Bowielee

I'm not finding any concrete pictures of the PS4 online, only rumored mockups and straight up forgeries. People are even showing black Xboxes and photoshoping PS logos on them trying to pass them off as "offical" pictures.

I'd really like to know where the legit pictures are.

According to Engadget, not even Sony has settled on the final design yet.


#227

bhamv3

bhamv3

If I were Sony I'd shape it like a large roast ham or a miniature telephone pole or something else random like that, just to mess with people.


#228

T

The_Khan

bhamv3 said:
If I were Sony I'd shape it like a large roast ham or a miniature telephone pole or something else random like that, just to mess with people.
Click to expand...
Or a giant pole of meat if you want to take this thought to it's conclusion.


#229

Bowielee

Bowielee

The_Khan said:
Or a giant pole of meat if you want to take this thought to it's conclusion.
Click to expand...
I'm not even touching that one...


#230

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Bowielee said:
I'm not even touching that one...
Click to expand...
So wait, you don't like touching giant poles of meat?


#231

Bowielee

Bowielee

More than a mouthfull is wasted.

C'mon, you kinda asked for it...


#232

T

The_Khan

Bowielee said:
I'm not even touching that one...
Click to expand...
That's what my male friends always say about my meat pole.


#233

Eriol

Eriol

figmentPez said:
Could this generation of consoles be what pushes the final shift to 64-bit binaries for games? If the PS4 and the next Xbox both have 8+ GB of RAM and developers are making games that use all of that RAM, then it might end up being too much extra work to re-jigger the code for 32-bit XP (either that or PCs will end up with a port of the WiiU port of the game *shudder*)
Click to expand...
If you're coding sanely, there should be no difference NOW. Only if you're violating tons of best practices is it more than a re-compile. But hey, if it's what causes it to happen, then WOOT!


#234

figmentPez

figmentPez

Eriol said:
If you're coding sanely, there should be no difference NOW. Only if you're violating tons of best practices is it more than a re-compile. But hey, if it's what causes it to happen, then WOOT!
Click to expand...
Is it possible to re-compile AI routines and map data and other stuff like that to use up less memory? I don't exactly know what gets kept in main system memory for a game. I know textures are a memory hog, but they're kept in the video RAM. What is the advantage to having more main system RAM, and can that be easily scaled down to fit in the 2GB/2GB limit that PCs have? (Without special considerations, I'm pretty sure that the 4GB memory limit on 32-bit executeables is actually broken down to 2GB of RAM and 2GB of swap file.)


#235

Eriol

Eriol

figmentPez said:
Is it possible to re-compile AI routines and map data and other stuff like that to use up less memory? I don't exactly know what gets kept in main system memory for a game. I know textures are a memory hog, but they're kept in the video RAM. What is the advantage to having more main system RAM, and can that be easily scaled down to fit in the 2GB/2GB limit that PCs have? (Without special considerations, I'm pretty sure that the 4GB memory limit on 32-bit executeables is actually broken down to 2GB of RAM and 2GB of swap file.)
Click to expand...
Your "pretty sure" is unfortunately wrong. In Windows executables, it's actually just a binary flag that says "use the last bit of memory or not" because generally everything that's ultra-high in the memory space is where the memory-mapped addresses to access hardware devices are. So you start getting into weird overlaps if you start using too much of that memory space in 32-bit applications. Also some logical bit-shift operations are different, again if you were being lazy and "Assuming" that the highest bit is "0" and thus not bothering to tell the difference between an arithmatic and logical bit shift.

Swap files are something completely different. If a process creates a swap file for itself, fine, but it doesn't have anything to do with the memory space. The OS itself can also "swap" some of the memory of idle processes to disk, but again, this doesn't impact the address space barriers we're talking about.


#236

GasBandit

GasBandit

Well, at least Sony has their heads NOT up their ass about one thing: used games.

Also it looks like their copyright protection will focus on how long it takes to load a game - probably to deal with disc swapping from mod chips, I guess. That's still a thing, right? That's what I did with my ps2 anyway...


#237

figmentPez

figmentPez

Eriol said:
Your "pretty sure" is unfortunately wrong. In Windows executables, it's actually just a binary flag that says "use the last bit of memory or not" because generally everything that's ultra-high in the memory space is where the memory-mapped addresses to access hardware devices are. So you start getting into weird overlaps if you start using too much of that memory space in 32-bit applications. Also some logical bit-shift operations are different, again if you were being lazy and "Assuming" that the highest bit is "0" and thus not bothering to tell the difference between an arithmatic and logical bit shift.

Swap files are something completely different. If a process creates a swap file for itself, fine, but it doesn't have anything to do with the memory space. The OS itself can also "swap" some of the memory of idle processes to disk, but again, this doesn't impact the address space barriers we're talking about.
Click to expand...
I was going by what I remembered from this article from years ago: A Messy Transition: Practical Problems With 32bit Addressing In Windows a piece about how Supreme Commander was a game that was already crashing due to reaching the 2GB memory limit in 32-bit applications. My memory was completely wrong, it's not a 2GB RAM / 2GB swap file division. It is, according to the article, that "in designing Windows Microsoft opted to split up the virtual address space of an application in half; 2GB goes to Windows (kernel space) and 2GB goes to the application (user space). Under normal circumstances this 2GB of space is all a 32bit application has to work with, this is the 2GB barrier and as we'll see is the cause of the problems with Supreme Commander." This was an article from 2007 and I have no idea what sorts of work-arounds there have been since that time.

Either way, there is a limit that 32-bit programs hit, and have been hitting for some time now, and I'm really unclear on what type of programming adjustments must be made in order to fit a game that was originally designed to have well over 4GB of RAM containing AI data, map data, physics and what-not into less than 4GB for a 32-bit limited system. I realize that the executable file just needs to be recompiled, but what happens to all the resources that the game is using? Do enemies get dumber with less memory space to process AI? Do maps have less detail? Is everything just slowed down with tons of pop-up because everything has to be swapped in and out all the time? At what point does it become impractical to make a 32-bit version?


#238

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

GasBandit said:
Well, at least Sony has their heads NOT up their ass about one thing: used games.

Also it looks like their copyright protection will focus on how long it takes to load a game - probably to deal with disc swapping from mod chips, I guess. That's still a thing, right? That's what I did with my ps2 anyway...
Click to expand...
I haven't heard of modding like that since XBox/PS2. At least, not in the terms of opening it up and soldering a chip in there like I did with my old PS1.


#239

GasBandit

GasBandit

CynicismKills said:
I haven't heard of modding like that since XBox/PS2. At least, not in the terms of opening it up and soldering a chip in there like I did with my old PS1.
Click to expand...
On my PS2, I used a solderless mod chip that basically was put in the line between the power button assembly and DVD reader and the motherboard. It let you boot up with a boot disk, then hot swap out to a DVD-R. Booting took longer naturally, but hey.

So, if that's not the case now, I dunno what the load time has to do with piracy.


#240

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

GasBandit said:
On my PS2, I used a solderless mod chip that basically was put in the line between the power button assembly and DVD reader and the motherboard. It let you boot up with a boot disk, then hot swap out to a DVD-R. Booting took longer naturally, but hey.

So, if that's not the case now, I dunno what the load time has to do with piracy.
Click to expand...
Yeah the one we had was the "ghost chip" that would get bypassed by games with piracy software like FF8 (the game wouldn't load if it detected the regular chip).


#241

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Okay then, I guess the one I saw was a fake. It looked legit enough i.e. minimalist.


#242

Espy

Espy

I think if it was real it would be all over every gaming site.

There are tons of mock ups out there though.


#243

Eriol

Eriol

figmentPez said:
I was going by what I remembered from this article from years ago: A Messy Transition: Practical Problems With 32bit Addressing In Windows a piece about how Supreme Commander was a game that was already crashing due to reaching the 2GB memory limit in 32-bit applications. My memory was completely wrong, it's not a 2GB RAM / 2GB swap file division. It is, according to the article, that "in designing Windows Microsoft opted to split up the virtual address space of an application in half; 2GB goes to Windows (kernel space) and 2GB goes to the application (user space). Under normal circumstances this 2GB of space is all a 32bit application has to work with, this is the 2GB barrier and as we'll see is the cause of the problems with Supreme Commander." This was an article from 2007 and I have no idea what sorts of work-arounds there have been since that time.
Click to expand...
And that's essentially correct, but incomplete. You can set a flag in your compiler options, and it becomes a flag in the output .exe that says "I want to use 3.xGB (I don't remember the exact amount) and I know what I'm doing!" So the "kernel space" (not exactly) is smaller, but still, all within 4GB of space. By default, yes, split into two 2GB chunks.


#244

Bubble181

Bubble181

GasBandit said:
So, if that's not the case now, I dunno what the load time has to do with piracy.
Click to expand...
If you're playing legitimately, you're suffering through 17 pre-load videos and arnings against piracy. If you're using illegal means to avoid those videos, you're pirating and must be punished. :p


#245

strawman

strawman

figmentPez said:
Could this generation of consoles be what pushes the final shift to 64-bit binaries for games? If the PS4 and the next Xbox both have 8+ GB of RAM and developers are making games that use all of that RAM, then it might end up being too much extra work to re-jigger the code for 32-bit XP (either that or PCs will end up with a port of the WiiU port of the game *shudder*)
Click to expand...
Consoles are special purse machines, and unlike general purpose machines they probably would rather give the programmers a few more specialized instructions to handle more memory than go to a 64 bit architecture which really doesn't buy them much.

Chances are good a few GB are set aside for the graphics chipset, and its possible that each core in the machine has some dedicated memory beyond the usual caches. It wouldn't surprise me if each core still only had a 32 bit addressing space.

The graphics processor likely has 128 bit wide or larger access to the ram, and like general purpose computers they probably give specialized access to the GPU for parallel processing for physics and graphics uses, where the regular processors would be at a disadvantage.

A real 64 bit data bus really won't buy a console much, and would cost more. Better, for them, to simply make the existing 32 bit bus faster, keep the instruction set small, and allow for a few instructions that deal with the larger memory space. Since memory size is fixed, it won't really be a problem.

But I'm still thinking each of the "8 cores" has dedicated memory, with a shared memory pool they can all access. This way each core would only see 32bits of address space, some their own, some shared, and some controlling hardware.

Pure speculation, though.


#246

figmentPez

figmentPez

Eriol said:
And that's essentially correct, but incomplete. You can set a flag in your compiler options, and it becomes a flag in the output .exe that says "I want to use 3.xGB (I don't remember the exact amount) and I know what I'm doing!" So the "kernel space" (not exactly) is smaller, but still, all within 4GB of space. By default, yes, split into two 2GB chunks.
Click to expand...
Which still doesn't address my main point: Can the resources be easily scaled back in order to fit in a smaller memory footprint? Is it possible to make a PC version of a PS4 game, that looks and plays as good or better, without also making it a 64-bit program? It would kill PC game sales if virtually every multi-platform title had worse graphics, smaller maps, dumber AI or something else because programmers had to cut corners to fit in a smaller memory space.


#247

strawman

strawman

There's no such thing as a straight port. The assets are moved over, but the engine that actually runs the game and handles the assets is different between the two platforms. There is probably a ton of common code between the two engines, but the underlying architecture, particularly graphics capabilities, is so different that they have to have significant code changes to make the game run well on either platform.

It's that engine that decides when to load something, and where to hold it for when its needed, and that appears to be the crux of your question.

However, it's mitigated by the asset pipeline. Most pc games run from the hard drive, which is fantastically faster than the optical drive in any console. Even if a game is forced to run in a 32 bit address space, it can load man more things on demand from the hard drive that would take too much time on the console.

If anything, I would say the console is more restrictive in terms of raw data handling capacity and capability, for handling physics, ai, etc in a timely manner.

But again, this is all handled by the engine, and in a multiplatform game, the engines are different enough between the platforms that the 32 bit or 64 bit distinction hardly matters.

You could think of the engine, in fact, as a virtual machine. It's upper interface to the game is the same across all platforms, and the lower interface takes as much advantage of the underlying architecture and resources as possible, and runs the game as well as it can given the resources available.

This suggests that 1) the engine for the pc is far more complicated than the console engine because it has to adapt to different resources and 2) that the pc platform could be both better or worse than the console based solely on the engine design and adaptability and the underlying hardware. I'd fully expect to see much better graphics on a pc setup for the same game on a retina display with a high end GPU, and much worse graphics for a very low end graphics card, compare to a console version.

As far as ai and physics, they are minuscule compared to the graphics processing, so I don't expect you'd see much difference unless they made the engine different intentionally. I'd expect them to do this if they recognize that pc gamers have a different play style and set of preferences than console gamers, but otherwise I don't think it would come down to resource constraints.


#248

Eriol

Eriol

stienman said:
A real 64 bit data bus really won't buy a console much, and would cost more. Better, for them, to simply make the existing 32 bit bus faster, keep the instruction set small, and allow for a few instructions that deal with the larger memory space. Since memory size is fixed, it won't really be a problem.
Click to expand...
Given that Xbox has been on X86-derived hardware from the beginning, and now the PS4 will be as well, and that's the arch that pcs have been on since the 80s, it's actually cheaper to take the existing 64-bit memory bus that everything has had for about 10 years now, and just use that, rather than re-engineer a "better" 32-bit bus. If talking about costs, off-the-shelf (or close enough) is WAY cheaper than re-engineering your own hardware. If anything, that's the lesson of the PS3, in that even though Cell was a far superior platform from the numbers perspective, the extra costs of engineering it made it more expensive, and as well they didn't make an easy-to-code-for API on top of it. Both reasons are assuredly why they went to X86 for this generation.


#249

figmentPez

figmentPez

stienman said:
However, it's mitigated by the asset pipeline. Most pc games run from the hard drive, which is fantastically faster than the optical drive in any console. Even if a game is forced to run in a 32 bit address space, it can load man more things on demand from the hard drive that would take too much time on the console.
Click to expand...
Two words: Mandatory installs.

But again, this is all handled by the engine, and in a multiplatform game, the engines are different enough between the platforms that the 32 bit or 64 bit distinction hardly matters.
Click to expand...
Bullshit. When it comes down to having >4GB of data in RAM vs <4GB of data in RAM that's a significant difference. Remember back in the Xbox/PS2 days when the console ports of PC FPS games had to have the maps carved into smaller chunks because consoles didn't have anywhere near the RAM that PCs did? That's the type of difference that we're going to be looking at between consoles and PCs if the switch to 64-bit programs isn't made on the PC end, only it'll be PCs that get lower detail maps, or dumber AI or more pop-up or something. The only question is if it will happen this generation. Does the PS4 (or the next Xbox) have enough RAM available to programmers that porting to less RAM on a 32-bit PC program will make a significant impact. My guess is that, yes, it will.

and runs the game as well as it can given the resources available.
Click to expand...
Which is exactly my point. What has to be sacrificed to fit into the memory constraints?


I'd fully expect to see much better graphics on a pc setup for the same game on a retina display with a high end GPU, and much worse graphics for a very low end graphics card, compare to a console version.
Click to expand...
Except we're talking main system RAM as well as graphics RAM. Even if the PC can still have enough video memory to cache all the necessary textures, and pixel-shaders and physics calculations, what is being sacrificed out of main system RAM in order to make things run on the PC?

otherwise I don't think it would come down to resource constraints.
Click to expand...
It always comes down to resource constraints of one type or another (granted, sometimes it's money and development time, and not system capability, but always resource constraints). The reason that Wii ports are radically different from 360 and PS3 games is resource constraints. The reason TF2 would be near impossible to update on 360 to match the current PC version is resource constraints. The reason that most multi-platform games don't tax the CPU on modern PCs is because it's too difficult to make a game that both takes advantage of a PC's processing power, and can also be scaled back to run on what little CPU horsepower is available on the 360/PS3.


#250

strawman

strawman

I just don't see why you think there could be a problem - or opportunity - here.

Consoles are obviously moving towards the pc architecture, but you are essentially asking if the architecture differences will result in reduced experience for one platform or the other.

IF the manufacturer of the game uses both platforms to their UTMOST capability, there will be differences, and those differences will rely completely on the platform.

IF The manufacturer of the game puts most of their effort into one platform and only barely supports other platforms, there will be differences, and those differences will rely completely on the manufacturer.

Since I've never seen a manufacturer choose the first path, I think that blame, if there's any to lay, can be laid at the design decisions the manufacturer makes, and not due to the capabilities of each platform.

But we are really discussing tiny parts of the game, right? Are you asking about whether they will drop features wholesale to "fit" into an inferior architecture, or are you asking about minor differences that will only be noticed by minutiae inspecting nerds that spend hundreds of hours on a game to decide if the ai path planning is slightly different, and if so how that can be used to their advantage in an upcoming competition?


#251

figmentPez

figmentPez

stienman said:
Consoles are obviously moving towards the pc architecture, but you are essentially asking if the architecture differences will result in reduced experience for one platform or the other.
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with architecture. PCs are already 64-bit, and have been since before dual-core chips became the norm, so that's not the issue. The sole issue is weather this will finally push game makers to adopt 64-bit programs and make a 64-bit OS a requirement to run their game.


But we are really discussing tiny parts of the game, right?
Click to expand...
We're not talking about the minor differences between a 360 version and a PS3 version. We're not even talking about the minor differences between a game originally made for the 360 and then ported to PC. We're talking differences on the level of a 360 game vs a Wii version of the same game. Whatever data fits into multiple gigabytes of RAM is what will have to be dumped to fit a PS4 game into the memory space of a 32-bit program. We're not talking about a few tweaks here and there, this is massive amounts of data that can be used on a PS4, but can't be used as long as PC games remain compatible with 32-bit operating systems (which not many people are running anymore).


#252

Gared

Gared

figmentPez said:
We're not talking about a few tweaks here and there, this is massive amounts of data that can be used on a PS4, but can't be used as long as PC games remain compatible with 32-bit operating systems (which not many people are running anymore).
Click to expand...
<sigh> Sadly, a lot more people are running 32bit OSes than you'd think. A LOT more. And, while most of these people aren't gamers, a lot of them do have kids young enough that they can't buy their own computers and therefor have to use their parents' computers which are still running Windows XP, or in some cases... WinMe or Win98SE. It's... it's almost enough to make a grown man cry, just thinking about how many times my customers tell me they can't use a data disc I've sent them because their OS won't run IE 8 or higher OR Firefox 17 or higher.[DOUBLEPOST=1361914980][/DOUBLEPOST]On the other hand, this doesn't necessarily mean that we should keep making games accounting for people who refuse to update their computers. That's just silly.


#253

figmentPez

figmentPez

Gared said:
<sigh> Sadly, a lot more people are running 32bit OSes than you'd think. A LOT more. And, while most of these people aren't gamers, a lot of them do have kids young enough that they can't buy their own computers and therefor have to use their parents' computers which are still running Windows XP, or in some cases... WinMe or Win98SE. It's... it's almost enough to make a grown man cry, just thinking about how many times my customers tell me they can't use a data disc I've sent them because their OS won't run IE 8 or higher OR Firefox 17 or higher.
Click to expand...
I meant gamers aren't running 32-bit OSes anymore. Seriously, if you've got a PC capable of running a game that needs a 64-bit executable in order to compete with a PS4 game, then you've got a system that should be running a 64-bit version of Windows 7. If you're still running Windows XP, but you've got a $300 graphics card made in the last two years, then something is seriously wrong with your priorities.

EDIT: For the record, I run XP on my netbook. Even if I upgrade it to Windows 7, as I've been thinking about for a while, it will still be a 32-bit version of Win7 because my netbook has an older Atom processor. Doesn't matter in a gaming discussion since netbooks suck at 3D gaming.


#254

Gared

Gared

figmentPez said:
I meant gamers aren't running 32-bit OSes anymore. Seriously, if you've got a PC capable of running a game that needs a 64-bit executable in order to compete with a PS4 game, then you've got a system that should be running a 64-bit version of Windows 7. If you're still running Windows XP, but you've got a $300 graphics card made in the last two years, then something is seriously wrong with your priorities.

EDIT: For the record, I run XP on my netbook. Even if I upgrade it to Windows 7, as I've been thinking about for a while, it will still be a 32-bit version of Win7 because my netbook has an older Atom processor. Doesn't matter in a gaming discussion since netbooks suck at 3D gaming.
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I'm not saying it's common overall, but I do know that there are a lot of people who have $300 (or more) graphics cards, more RAM than their OS can actually access, quad core processors, and enough case cooling to run high end games on High graphics without a single worry; and still refuse to upgrade beyond Win98SE - because they're absolute nutcases who're afraid that Microsoft is going to steal their identities and everything else they could ever possibly consider valuable if they put a newer OS on their computers. We laugh at them frequently, when they're trying to get support for something that just doesn't run on that old of an OS and they're bitching about it every chance they get. Thankfully, they will eventually die off and the world will be a better place.


#255

Eriol

Eriol

The XP thing is a bigger problem than you think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

Win XP: still 39% of desktop OS installs, as of Jan 2013.

So ya... that sucks a lot, as virtually all of those are 32-bit.


#256

GasBandit

GasBandit

<--- STILL running XP on every machine except my laptop. I keep intending to install 7, on my main gaming rig but I've been running this install of XP since 2007 and the inertia is palpable.

As for at work, we've still got a bunch of legacy software which doesn't play nice with anything but XP, though I've gotten most of the salesforce on 7 at least, and half the program directors. But all the machines that do the actual work - production studio, broadcast studio, administration, mine... they are all stuck on XP for now.


#257

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Still on XP 32-bit. Hate myself a little more each day for not upgrading yet, but I need parts more than I need a new operating system right now, so it's going to be awhile before I finally upgrade. Hopefully Windows 7 will have dropped in price by then, because Windows 8 is a piece of shit and I want no part of it.


#258

figmentPez

figmentPez

Eriol said:
The XP thing is a bigger problem than you think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

Win XP: still 39% of desktop OS installs, as of Jan 2013.

So ya... that sucks a lot, as virtually all of those are 32-bit.
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And how many of those are gaming PCs with dual-core processors over 3.0Ghz or better and DX11 graphics cards with at least 2GB of RAM?

Far more relevant is the Steam Hardware Survey (currently from January 2013)
  • 55% were Windows 7 64-bit
  • 9.6% were Win XP 32-bit
  • ~28% were running some sort of 32-bit OS
  • ~70% were running some sort of 64-bit OS
See how much XP use drops off when you look specifically at systems people are using to run games on?


#259

strawman

strawman

While I disagree with your analysis of the situation, I honestly don't care enough about it to explain why it probably doesn't matter. Perhaps it does. Perhaps it doesn't.


#260

PatrThom

PatrThom

stienman said:
IF The manufacturer of the game puts most of their effort into one platform and only barely supports other platforms, there will be differences, and those differences will rely completely on the manufacturer.
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I'm looking at YOU, Quicken!
AshburnerX said:
...it's going to be awhile before I finally upgrade. Hopefully Windows 7 will have dropped in price by then, because Windows 8 is a piece of shit and I want no part of it.
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Microsoft tends to keep the previous version of the OS available for only one year after it is discontinued, so if you want to pick up a copy of Win7 you might want to do so before October. I just managed to sneak in my copy of Win7Pro a couple weeks ago. Whew!

The phase-out has begun. XP stuck around because people didn't want to upgrade, but that 3GB memory limit* will be its undoing, and soon. Major developers have already begun to move away from XP (Google, Apple), to the point where XP now accounts for less than 20% of all desktop systems, according to some samples. And its share is still falling, and showing no sign of stopping.

--Patrick
*Yes, I know that's for server, but it's mostly the same kernel.


#261

Bowielee

Bowielee

I don't think that Windows 7 will go away nearly as quickly for the same reason that Windows XP stayed around for so long. From what I've heard, the bulk of people simply hate Windows 8. Microsoft will keep selling as long as it's viable to make money off them, hence why XP stayed available for so long, but vista and ME haven't.


#262

GasBandit

GasBandit

The simple fact of the matter is there is no compelling reason to move beyond windows 7, and the only compelling reason to go to 7 from XP is the 32-bit memory limit. If not for that one bugbear, I'm pretty sure we'd still have XP dominating the market share.


#263

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

XP also has some security holes that were fixed in 7. 7 also has better versions of direct X. But that's STILL not a whole lot better.


#264

GasBandit

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
XP also has some security holes that were fixed in 7. 7 also has better versions of direct X. But that's STILL not a whole lot better.
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For a vast majority of users, this is not a compelling reason. I still don't give a shit about DX10, much less 11.


#265

figmentPez

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
For a vast majority of users, this is not a compelling reason. I still don't give a shit about DX10, much less 11.
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Not interested in Bioshock Ifinite then? (link)


#266

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
Not interested in Bioshock Ifinite then? (link)
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He's gonna play it on a console, of course.


#267

Frank

Frank

Something I had never thought of came to light. The prices of video cards is going to, likely, skyrocket (at least at first) once the PS4 is released. GDDR-5 is an expensive part of video cards. Sony is sticking 8 gigs in each console. They're going to be using more GDDR-5 in PS4s than AMD or Nvidia use currently in video card production.


#268

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Alternatively, the price will drop because the manufacturers will be forced to speed up production to meet demand.


#269

GasBandit

GasBandit

figmentPez said:
Not interested in Bioshock Ifinite then? (link)
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By "I don't give a shit about," I mean "I don't see any actual advantage delivered by." I don't get excited by the supposed/alleged improvements over DX9. I already have a laptop with 7 on it, so it's not like I'm boycotting later versions of directX, it's just I believe that they were more of a backdoor scheme to force OS upgrades than actually delivering any better graphics APIs.


#270

GasBandit

GasBandit

This guy obviously didn't go into our Path of Exile thread.



#271

Bowielee

Bowielee

Or any game thread, really.


#272

Frank

Frank

GasBandit said:
By "I don't give a shit about," I mean "I don't see any actual advantage delivered by." I don't get excited by the supposed/alleged improvements over DX9. I already have a laptop with 7 on it, so it's not like I'm boycotting later versions of directX, it's just I believe that they were more of a backdoor scheme to force OS upgrades than actually delivering any better graphics APIs.
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Crysis 2 with or without DX11 is a huge shift graphics wise. Also, in horsepower required to run said graphics.

Crysis 3 is kind of a gong show compared to 2 in the PC optimization department.


#273

GasBandit

GasBandit

Frank said:
Crysis 2 with or without DX11 is a huge shift graphics wise. Also, in horsepower required to run said graphics.

Crysis 3 is kind of a gong show compared to 2 in the PC optimization department.
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Well, you say that, but I have yet to really see the difference. Of course, as far as horsepower, I guess I'm spoiled because my XP box is using an overclocked 8800GTX I bought for 500 bucks back in 07 that's stood me in good stead to this day...


#274

Bowielee

Bowielee

He's saying that even in DX9, it's a huge jump in quality in graphics.


#275

GasBandit

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
He's saying that even in DX9, it's a huge jump in quality in graphics.
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Ah, I must have misunderstood. I thought he was saying with VS without, not regardless of verison.


#276

Bowielee

Bowielee

Until budget cards can effectively run tessellation (no matter what they advertise, they can't), only really high end cards will see a big difference.


#277

PatrThom

PatrThom

PatrThom said:
Microsoft tends to keep the previous version of the OS available for only one year after it is discontinued, so if you want to pick up a copy of Win7 you might want to do so before October.
Click to expand...
To clarify, I am referring to the retail version, not the OEM version. The OEM/System Builder version will probably remain available longer.

--Patrick


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