NOOOOOOOO! George Lucas is at it again.

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As long as he is screwing around in there... I wish he would hand over the notes to the prequels to a competent director and writer, and let some one make a decent film out of them.
 
Honestly, he needs to stop doing little thing and just go nuts.

I mean, go nuts George. Insert all new actors. New score. Ashton Kutcher instead of Harrison Ford. Come on man. None of this piddly stuff.
 
It'd be better if he deleted a certain "NOOO" rather than adding more. That was a good scene at the end of Revenge that was totally ruined. John Williams was in fine form for it, the music swelling, and then... NOOOOO... gods.

My wife had her kill face on when I showed her the edited clip for the end of Return.

This is shit.
 
Oh, I sense a new meme coming on. People editing in Vader's "NOOO" at other moments of the movies. Like when Vader is spinning off into space after the first Death Star explodes. "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
 
I dunno, I don't think its the worst. If that was in it when it was first made, I don't think the movies would be looked at as worse at all. Of course, it doesn't make the movie any better, so its just Lucas liking change for the sake of change as usual.
 
Oh, I sense a new meme coming on. People editing in Vader's "NOOO" at other moments of the movies. Like when Vader is spinning off into space after the first Death Star explodes. "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
-While Luke is lighting the body on fire.
-When he starts force-choking that dude who made fun of the Force.
 
Am I really the only one that the changes he's made aren't enough to deter me from finally having all 6 films on BLU-RAY on my HDLEDLCD TV?

I've been a fan since I was a child and I have to admit, very openly that I did not hate the direction that Lucas took the pre-quels. I could have done without Jar-Jar and the Pod Race scene in Ep. 1 but honestly? I thought it was a decent build up. Anakin being a pompous, over zealous, self-absorbed teenager? Yep, accurate to a kid his age being told from day 1 that he was "The Chosen One". The "Nooooo!" at the end of Ep3? Pretty inline for the wuss that he was AT that time. He didn't become "badass Vader" till after that last bit of his soul was crushed. Honestly the only REAL complaint that I've heard over the years that I agree with is that Hayden's acting was so wooden, that you couldn't really feel for his character's emotional swings and the budding relationship between him and Padme.

There are people out there that don't and even think the changes are good. As for this "Noooo!" being added? Kinda fits with him remembering himself, it's the remembering of his own soul and remembering how to feel pain and loss as he did before he lost his humanity.
 
I disagree with this new 'no'. I just thought the body language was so strong in that scene. You couldn't seen his face, you couldn't judge what he was thinking..but the body language said more then words ever could. Nothing needed to be said, a viewer could FEEL the change.

Dubbing in a dramatic "no" will take away from that marvellous performance.
 

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I agree, Shegokigo. I never quite understood the prequel hate. Most of the complaints people make about the prequels really apply to the originals, too. The real problem is that Gen X grew up and met the prequels with their more critical adult eyes.
 
I guess I kinda hated the "everyone met everyone---IN THE PAST" deal with the prequels, and how certain things had explanations where none were needed (like the invention of midichorians, the "force ghost" etc.),
 
And those were things I didn't actually mind. Everyone met everyone in the past gives it a big circular feeling when watching all 6 films back to back and is quite fun. The explanations, while not needed, weren't exactly unnecessary either. I find it so funny how HUGE people blow up at the midichlorian thing. "Really? Get over it, it's just an explanation that didn't coincide with the idea you made up in your heads."
 
There are people out there that don't and even think the changes are good. As for this "Noooo!" being added? Kinda fits with him remembering himself, it's the remembering of his own soul and remembering how to feel pain and loss as he did before he lost his humanity.
No one is saying the "Noooo!" does not fit the situation, just the fact that the "Noooo!" removed the power behind the moment.

In movies, some of the best emotional scenes are the ones not burdened by dialog. It is actually a rule in film that if you can get a scene across without dialog, it is better to leave off the dialog then to put it in. Directors will sometimes leave entire sections of a script unused simply because the scene, in the end, got the point across without needing an actor to "explain" it through words. Darth Vader looking at his son being killed, walking over and picking up the Emperor, and throwing him down the pit, is one of those moments. You don't need to add words to it to help the audience understand what is going through his mind.
 
I get that, I do. I mean I also thought the scene played out just fine and the revision isn't necessary at all.

However, I just find it hilarious that people blow up to the point of "I REFUSE TO GIVE THAT TARDO ANY MONEY FOR THIS VISUALLY SUPERIOR TO ANY PREVIOUS INCARNATION FILM BECAUSE VADER NOW SAYS "NOOOO!" DURING THAT SCENE".

Like, laugh out loud hilarious.
 

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Oh there were definitely problems. I think we'd all like to put our fingers in our ears and go "LALALALA" about midichlorians.

My son (8) and his friends prefer the prequels by a landslide. They have almost the opposite reaction that my adult friends do. To my son, the originals are fun, but they're the ones you knuckle down and get through to the end of the story.
 
(Warning, this is a bit of a long rant)

I think most are just upset because Darth Vader, in general, has slowly been losing a lot of the things we loved about him. He was always, at least to me, a bastion of confidence and determination. You see him in the Original Trilogy and his voice combined with his movements and how he treats others, you just felt like he was not a guy you ever wanted to mess with because he would calmly fuck you up.

The Prequel Trilogy changed that, as when we first see him he basically bumbled through his first battles as a little jesus christ kid, spends most of the next movie crying about the world being unfair like a spoiled teenager, and then in the final movie has scenes where he is "raging" like a madman. Could you imagine how amazing the final scenes of the last movie would have been if, after Anakin got his limbs chopped off, he just laid their, staring at Obi-Wan in pain, but not going "ahhhhhhh I hate you ahaahahhhhhhhhh I hate you hate hate ahhhhhhhhhhhh!"

I mean, think of the first scene of Darth Vader. Tell me this wouldn't have been a stronger scene and in-line with his character from the Original Trilogy. He is laying on the table, pain on his face but otherwise motionless. They put the suit on him, no fear in his eyes as they put on the mask because his mind is so lost. They bring up the table, and he asks about Padme, learning that she is dead. Without a sound his hand shakes and just like in the movie the droids around him get crushed, but he remains nearly motionless. Suddenly the forces die down and settle, his arm no longer shaking, and he steps out calmly, before turning and saying "What is your will, my master?"

Here is the thing about the added dialog and why it ruins much of the original scene for me.

The Original: Darth Vader is watching his son getting killed. He fights internally with himself about it, and then you can see it in his movements that he basically thought to himself "No, I am not going to let you do this." before walking over, picking up the Emperor, and throwing him into the pit almost like he was tossing aside a log or other obstruction. It was like he finally realized he needed to remove the burden from his shoulders, and with cold determination, he did it, to save his son, and deep down, himself. No panic, no stress, just a realization he made happen with the same cold determination that defined him.

The New Scene: Darth Vader is watching his son getting killed. He slowly starts to panic and gets more vocally stressed at his situation, until like a rubber band he snaps and jumps on the Emperor, throwing him over the edge. There is no more cold determination, there is no more undertone of him doing it his own salvation just as much as it was saving his son. He is just a man throwing up his arms in panic and doing the first thing that comes to his mind. An instinctual reaction rather then one of his own redeemed choice.

In other words, most of us saw Darth Vader as a calm, even calculating individual. The new movies make it seem like he bumbled into most of his situations on a whim. The new "Nooo!" is just another change to him making a choice on a random whim rather then seemingly coming up with the choice on his own.
 
What I didn't like about the prequels was that he managed to put so much special effects in the movie that the important things - characters, dialogue, and plot - got crushed under a billion dollars of CGI. Actors need to interact with each other, and / or their environment. When everyone's in a big empty green room, it's hard to act. When half the people or objects your supposed to be interacting with aren't there, it's harder.

For example, the fight against the droids in Episode I: half the time you can tell they just said, "Okay, swing your saber around, we'll just paint in the droids later" - so you have droids more or less teleporting from where they had been in one cut, jumping to where they're conventionally being cut in half by a Jedi who's facing a different direction.

In the original trilogy, most of the props were physically present, and looked old. Occasionally ancient. That made you feel they had a history. The skiff battle in RotJ, for example - the alien thugs look menacing, the skiffs look battered, things are dark and danky and used. The Millennium Falcon is a bootlegger's car - modified and quirky but fast and full of surprises.

In the prequels, it's like watching the mother of all Shmup's - visually intense but no real connection to anything.
 
@Scythrexx - See I view it completely differently. It makes him a more well rounded character and even shows us that even the most invincible creatures can be human too. Without the prequels, we would have always seen Vader as that inhuman (till the end) yet still one dimensional character alot of people liked "back-in-the-day".

Your version of what should have happened was not inline at ALL with a human being with a soul losing the last bit of his humanity. That's the great part about the ending of Ep3 AND what DOES make it meld so well with the beginning of Ep4. He's no longer bound by his "soul" or "feelings". They've been stripped out of him by all his loss and pain. He's become what the universe fears because of it. Without it, he would have been a weaker character all around.

Which lends to my argument against your "old version" being changed. The fact that he is a well rounded character now, and we have the "Noooo!" from Ep3 makes the addition of it in Ep6 so much stronger. He regains his humanity, his "soul" in that moment and redeems himself all the more than his "Silent/Stoic relization and action".
 
@Scythrexx - See I view it completely differently. It makes him a more well rounded character and even shows us that even the most invincible creatures can be human too. Without the prequels, we would have always seen Vader as that inhuman (till the end) yet still one dimensional character alot of people liked "back-in-the-day".

Your version of what should have happened was not inline at ALL with a human being with a soul losing the last bit of his humanity. That's the great part about the ending of Ep3 AND what DOES make it meld so well with the beginning of Ep4. He's no longer bound by his "soul" or "feelings". They've been stripped out of him by all his loss and pain. He's become what the universe fears because of it. Without it, he would have been a weaker character all around.
I don't agree at all. Taking a character and flopping around his emotions does not make him well-rounded. A well rounded character is one you can understand and has basic flaws, but they have to be consistent. The kid in EP1 is not the same as the guy in EP2, who is somewhat different then EP3, and then once EP4 starts he is a completely different type of person. In most film that is considered a mess. Think of how Luke grew in the original trilogy, and you will notice he didn't change all that much between films. Same for Han Solo or Leia. They grew as people while retaining what people loves about them, that is why they are classic characters.

My version DOES show humanity, it shows how deep down he does hate, have rage, he does have pain, but he is broken, he was broken and he has no way out.

One can show humanity without making someone over emotional. Love, pain, hate, all those things don't have to be overt showings, since many of our understanding of those emotions are through things like body language. One can show the rise of Darth Vader with plenty of emotional value WITHOUT making it a showboat. Look at one of the most famous characters, Han Solo, and you will notice that his feelings, like his love relationship with Leia, are very subtle. He does not sing from the rafters his love or go on love walks under waterfalls, and that is why their relationship is one of the stronger ones shown in film. He cares for her, but not in the way that he goes hulk on everyone around him when she gets shot.

Darth Vader wanting to look into Luke's eyes without the mask was a perfect enough emotional bookend to them, they didn't need to add anything to the other scenes.

Which lends to my argument against your "old version" being changed. The fact that he is a well rounded character now, and we have the "Noooo!" from Ep3 makes the addition of it in Ep6 so much stronger. He regains his humanity, his "soul" in that moment and redeems himself all the more than his "Silent/Stoic relization and action".
We already know he regained his humanity and his "soul", that was always a given in the original version. He would not have saved his son if such was not the case. Once again, it is the subtelty of the event, the way its handled that not only shows he is regaining some of his love and humanity, but doing such at his own choice, coming to his own realization and still fitting in line with how he has handled himself for nearly 20 years since he turned.

His silent/stoic realization is much more powerful because it's an internal emotion, it's a act of choice rather then an act of panic. I don't know about you, but if I was getting beat down by someone I would rather my father walk in and beat the guys ass down without a word, rather then scream out "stop it stop it stop it!" and tackle him. It shows more care, and that my father was openly thinking about what was happening to me, rather then going into "panic mode" because he does not know how to handle the situation. One is a strong individual, the other a "weak" one, and Darth Vader saving his son was supposed to be the "strongest" moment of a life that almost ended in subjugation and tragedy.

Be aware, I don't hate the prequels. I really don't care about them that much. What I care about is that Darth Vader was the reason I loved Star Wars, he was such a powerful villain with a well done ending that was both satisfying and fitting. I like going back to the original movies and seeing that person again, but the more and more they attempt to "overly emotionalize" him, either in the prequels or by adding dialog like they did in the Blu-ray, I slowly lose my respect for him as a character. He is becoming a joke.
 
My biggest problem with the prequels is that they are very bad* movies. That being said, I totally get why kids would enjoy them.

*please note the above is an opinion based on what I think makes a movie good: things like cohesive and coherent story, strong characters with their own arcs, vfx that serve the story rather than replace it, etc. I'm fine with people having a differing opinion, this is merely mine. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
 
@Scytherexx: The only honest response I can give you is that we see it very differently and I don't agree. *shrug* You saw all that in your viewing of the film, I see all that in the changes of the film/prequels.

@Espy: Much like some people consider the entire series as bad films and could say the very things you did against the Original Trilogy? Personally I think all 6 films are stronger as a whole, each with their own flaws and issues. Much like the PotC series.
 
@Espy: Much like some people consider the entire series as bad films and could say the very things you did against the Original Trilogy?
Again, this is my opinion: No, they can't say much of that about the OT. The original trilogy, while indeed having some serious "B" movie quality stuff in it still retained strong story structure, good narrative and unique and strong character arcs. They had their cheese no doubt, but they have many of the things that make a good story good. The prequels are a mess of poor narrative and cardboard characters.
Now, that doesn't mean one has to like the OT or the characters or even feel like Lucas and his crew did the above things I mentioned in the OT. I feel very comfortable, from a strict film v film viewpoint, saying the OT are superior films in terms of storytelling and character. Amazing? No. Pretty basic in fact. Which is probably why they work so well.
 
Honestly, the argument about changes boils down to two examples for me:

1) Han shot first - This is pretty much the cornerstone argument of most of these changes. It's not just how sloppy the editing on it comes across. Or how they tried to "fix" it by having Han's head magically teleport to the side to "dodge" the show in further revisions.

No, it's that, like the new "NOOOO!", it changes the character. Han was, in a lot of ways, a very bad person when we first meet him. He only cared about himself and was an overall jerk. But he redeems himself in the end, when he rescues Luke. The thing is, too, is that Han's character would be the type that would shoot first. He's not a nice guy and he'll do what he can to get out of trouble. Plus, it showed how totally underhanded he was: the whole time Greedo had a gun aimed at him, Han did, too! The dude was like a space Batman.

Personally, I didn't mind most of the changes. The really obvious ones, like the CGI characters and such added into the backgrounds or extensions of planets or locations to further give us an idea of the area. Since I loved singing the song, I missed the Ewok scene at the end of Jedi, but I do appreciate how the change feels more universal instead of just a celebration on Endor. I'm not a fan of Hayden suddenly showing up as a ghost, but for the sake of synchronicity, I understand and don't mind.

One scene that I'm absolutely not a fan of is having Jaba show up in a New Hope. It takes away his more mythic status to be mentioned and then finally appear in the third.

But these changes, regardless of how minor, make incredible changes to already great scenes. The "noooo!" is completely unnecessary. Changing whether Han shot first is unnecessary. They might be minor, tiny changes, but they were amazing, iconic scenes aleady. There was no need to change or add to them.

Oh, and as for my second point...

2) Changing guns to flashlights in E.T.

Nuff. Fucking. Said.
 
One scene that I'm absolutely not a fan of is having Jaba show up in a New Hope. It takes away his more mythic status to be mentioned and then finally appear in the third.
And thats a great point about later day Lucas. He seems to have lost the idea that you don't have to SHOW everything. Every scene doesn't have to be just packed full of as much cool stuff as it could be. Sometimes less is more. Like letting DV's body language "shout" the "No" instead of his voice. Minor but it's the difference between a great storyteller and a mediocre one in my opinion.
That being said there are some things I don't mind the changes on in the more recent updates of the OT.
 
I kind of get why Lucas is changing stuff like Vader's silence and the like. I don't like the changes, but I see why he's doing it, crippling the original films to be more like the prequels. What I don't get are the baffling insane changes that make one believe he's just lost his fucking mind like making Obi-Wan's entrance in the original movie make a sound like a kid with Down's Syndrome excited about a new toy or adding extra rocks in front of R2-D2 so that it makes 0 logical sense how he managed to hide there in the first place.
 
Am I really the only one that the changes he's made aren't enough to deter me from finally having all 6 films on BLU-RAY on my HDLEDLCD TV?
I'm not going to get into all the arguing over the quality of the films' content, but I will let you know, Shego, that the transfer being used for all but Episode 1 is at 1080 and I can't remember what it's called, but there is a Higher Quality that is then displayed in 1080 on your usual HD. Rather than starting with that Higher Quality, it'll be starting from 1080, so it's going to look worse than your other Blu-Rays except for Episode 1.

I doubt Lucas intends for that to be definitive, which will mean another set of Blu-Rays down the line where this transfer problem is corrected.

I don't know if it matters to you or not, but I thought you should know.
 
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