Avengers: Age of Ultron (spoiler thread!)

Ravenpoe · May 1, 2015

With this movie having just come out, I thought it prudent to have a thread just for spoilerific discussion, so that the other can still be about hype and predictions without ruining the movie for anyone else.

I just got back from seeing it, aaaand... I'm disappointed.

I enjoyed the flick, and thought it was a fun action romp, and have no regrets about seeing it. But it felt poorly paced, the tension never really felt like it was rising or falling, and some characters (the Maximoff twins, Vision) felt like they didn't get nearly enough screen time or development. Ultron also could have used more screen time, his genesis comes about fairly quickly, and the next time we see him he's already made himself a completely new robot body and army, with how he did this hand waved with some passing comments about robotics facilities being infected.

The humor was good. I enjoyed the lighthearted tone, and Ultron himself was funnier than I expected, while also being able to appear menacing. I think I would have preferred he be played a bit more straight, as I was expecting a much more calculating genius than this unhinged android. And the twins just falling in line to be his minions right away seemed odd, as well as the setup for Wanda letting Stark take the staff to begin with. Was she reading the future? Did she know he would make Ultron? Or was she just banking on him doing something crazy?

tl;dr fun action movie, left me feeling a bit underwhelmed. But at least motherfuckin' Thanos was in the end stinger.

bhamv3 · May 2, 2015

Honestly, I agree with a lot of your criticisms, though on the whole I still found the movie to be a satisfying and enjoyable experience. Possibly because I don't really have a very refined taste in movies.

As for why Wanda let Stark take the scepter, I think it's the last option: She knew Stark has a tendency to do things because he can, before he really thinks about whether he should. If he's given something as powerful as the scepter, whatever he created from it would almost certainly implode on him.

Thread Necromancer · May 2, 2015

I saw Wanda's letting Stark take the scepter as a ... wow, ok, his vision is fucked up and he might do my job for me (aka, killing everyone). Let's see where this goes.

I enjoyed the movie. Not as much so as the first, but I did really enjoy it. James Spader did fantastic. Scarlet was fantastic (I'll be in my bunk). The nice throw in of Hawkeye having a family and such was a bit of a 'wow' moment I thought. Not so much that he should, but that they included it, and did so imo tastefully. I really enjoyed that.

I can gripe that some parts were loose, and some just poor taste, but overall, I did enjoy the film.

filmfanatic · May 2, 2015

I also enjoyed the film, even if it did feel a bit rushed at points. Apparently, Joss Whedon's director's cuit clocked in at around 3 hours and 20 minutes, so they basically cut out an hour of material. That explains the rushed feeling. That said, I still liked it. I thought James Spader was good as Ultron and really liked how they gave Hawkeye more to actually do and offered more to his character. I also thought that Andy Serkis was good in the brief time we got him as Ulysses Klaue.

Just curious, how did other peoples' theaters respond when the Vision picked up Mjolnir? The audience I was with went dead silent for a moment before a few folks remarked, "Oh, my god."

Reverent-one · May 2, 2015

Thread Necromancer said:
I saw Wanda's letting Stark take the scepter as a ... wow, ok, his vision is fucked up and he might do my job for me (aka, killing everyone). Let's see where this goes.

Yeah, she says as much the first time they meet Ultron in the church.

Wanda Maximoff: I wanted him to face his fear, to create something we could use against him.

filmfanatic said:
Just curious, how did other peoples' theaters respond when the Vision picked up Mjolnir? The audience I was with went dead silent for a moment before a few folks remarked, "Oh, my god."

I think it was silence or gasps followed by some laughter at the Avenger's responses.

SpecialKO · May 2, 2015

In my theater, there was a pause of dead silence, then it erupted in wild cheering and applause (with laughter at the Avengers' expressions).

Hailey Knight · May 2, 2015

filmfanatic said:
Just curious, how did other peoples' theaters respond when the Vision picked up Mjolnir? The audience I was with went dead silent for a moment before a few folks remarked, "Oh, my god."

No pause--theater-wide laughter.

Got back a little bit ago. It was pretty good, though I'd rank it under four or five of the other Marvel movies. It's actually getting hard to rank these; eventually there will be enough of them to count as a TV show's season. I agree that it felt rushed and I'm curious to see the director's cut, since they cut all of Tom Hiddleston's stuff (however much or little that was) and probably some stuff with the twins.

It seemed really weird to kill off Quicksilver, aside from Whedon's need to kill off a character in whatever he does. If most of the original Avengers were leaving the team, that would solve there being a glut of too many characters on the team, so there's no need to off a new character who didn't really get a chance to do much.

Spader was great, I liked Bruce and Natasha's scenes, his leaving was sad but not unexpected, lots of great one-liners. I'd still put the first Avengers as a better overall movie, but this was a lot of fun regardless.

Ravenpoe · May 2, 2015

Zero Esc said:
No pause--theater-wide laughter.

Got back a little bit ago. It was pretty good, though I'd rank it under four or five of the other Marvel movies. It's actually getting hard to rank these; eventually there will be enough of them to count as a TV show's season. I agree that it felt rushed and I'm curious to see the director's cut, since they cut all of Tom Hiddleston's stuff (however much or little that was) and probably some stuff with the twins.

It seemed really weird to kill off Quicksilver, aside from Whedon's need to kill off a character in whatever he does. If most of the original Avengers were leaving the team, that would solve there being a glut of too many characters on the team, so there's no need to off a new character who didn't really get a chance to do much.

Spader was great, I liked Bruce and Natasha's scenes, his leaving was sad but not unexpected, lots of great one-liners. I'd still put the first Avengers as a better overall movie, but this was a lot of fun regardless.

Even though I poo-poo'd the movie in my original post a bit, I do still think it was really fun, and enjoyed myself. I'd still like to see that directors cut, because the pacing was just awful, and maybe it could fill in some of those moments that felt needed.

If I had to rank the movies, it would go Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America: Winter Soldier, Avengers 1 and then Avengers 2. And then everything else. And then Ang Lee's Hulk.

Hailey Knight · May 2, 2015

Ravenpoe said:
Even though I poo-poo'd the movie in my original post a bit, I do still think it was really fun, and enjoyed myself. I'd still like to see that directors cut, because the pacing was just awful, and maybe it could fill in some of those moments that felt needed.

If I had to rank the movies, it would go Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America: Winter Soldier, Avengers 1 and then Avengers 2. And then everything else. And then Ang Lee's Hulk.

I'd probably still put the first Captain America above Avengers 2.

On Marvel movies in general, there was another Ant-Man trailer before this (I'd only seen the first one before). Looks a lot better than it did and I'm up for seeing it now.

Ravenpoe · May 2, 2015

Zero Esc said:
I'd probably still put the first Captain America above Avengers 2.

That's probably fair. I did really enjoy Captain America: The First Avenger. Chris Evans just owns that role. I'd still put Avengers 2 above the Thor movies, though. And above Iron Man 2 and 3.

Dei · May 2, 2015

How does Thor know about the stone found in Guardians? Just by virtue of being in Asgard, or did I miss something?

Cheesy1 · May 2, 2015

I'm sure, besides Earth, that most of the galaxy heard about Ronin's assault on Xandar. I would think that the Asgardians would be one of the races most well-versed about the Infinity Stones, considering they had the Infinity Gauntlet in their possession at one point.

Hailey Knight · May 3, 2015

Dei said:
How does Thor know about the stone found in Guardians? Just by virtue of being in Asgard, or did I miss something?

Asgard probably keeps tabs on big galactic goings-on, but it's even likely this was covered in the hour of cut content.

I had moments where it felt like the movie assumed a few things. There were a couple points where it felt like "you're supposed to be watching Agents of SHIELD," which I haven't. I wasn't lost, but I'm guessing the whole enhancements thing comes from there.

Covar · May 3, 2015

Zero Esc said:
Asgard probably keeps tabs on big galactic goings-on, but it's even likely this was covered in the hour of cut content.

I had moments where it felt like the movie assumed a few things. There were a couple points where it felt like "you're supposed to be watching Agents of SHIELD," which I haven't. I wasn't lost, but I'm guessing the whole enhancements thing comes from there.

And Fox having rights to the word mutant.

The asguardians had the collector watching a stone for them. When his place got wrecked because of another stone they were probably informed about it.

Hailey Knight · May 3, 2015

Covar said:
The asguardians had the collector watching a stone for them. When his place got wrecked because of another stone they were probably informed about it.

Right, one of the many things I've probably forgotten from Thor 2.

GasBandit · May 3, 2015

WORTHY

PatrThom · May 3, 2015

GasBandit said:
WORTHY

That does beg a question.
Would the elevator be able to go up?

--Patrick

filmfanatic · May 3, 2015

GasBandit · May 3, 2015

PatrThom said:
That does beg a question.
Would the elevator be able to go up?

--Patrick

... You haven't seen the movie, have you.

Why are you in the spoilers thread if you haven't watched the movie?

Anyway, the elevator scenario is specifically discussed in the movie, complete with "The elevator is worthy!" quote.

Dei · May 3, 2015

PatrThom · May 3, 2015

GasBandit said:
Why are you in the spoilers thread if you haven't watched the movie?

To get it off my list of unread threads, and I skim quickly so I don't get caught in any spoilers.

--Patrick

GasBandit · May 3, 2015

PatrThom said:
To get it off my list of unread threads, and I skim quickly so I don't get caught in any spoilers.

--Patrick

Middle click to open in new tab, then immediately close new tab without switching to it.

Gryfter · May 3, 2015

Saw it, liked it... definitely had some pacing issues but overall still a great superhero flick.

bhamv3 · May 3, 2015

So, inanimate objects can "lift" Mjolnir, presumably since they're not alive so there's no issue of worthiness or not.

What if an inanimate object is given consciousness after it's already lifting Mjolnir? I have this mental image of Stark building an elevator that can be controlled by Jarvis. The elevator starts out with no AI loaded in its computer. It opens, and Thor drops the hammer into the elevator. So far so good. Then Stark uploads Jarvis into the elevator's computer. And the elevator suddenly falls inexorably to ground level, or the hammer falls through the elevator's floor.

And then Stark would probably then try to experiment with this, scientifically. Build a series of elevator platforms, one atop another. The top one has the full Jarvis AI suite loaded into it. The one at the bottom simply has a rudimentary "if-then" statement loaded into its memory, sort of like "if button is pressed, then go up". And in between, there are a series of elevator platforms with AI programs of increasing sophistication as you go up.

Thor drops the hammer on the top platform. Presumably it's too smart to hold the hammer, so the platform falls downwards. How far does it go down until it reaches a platform that's deemed "not alive" and thus can hold up the hammer?

... I really should be concentrating on my work instead.

evilmike · May 3, 2015

bhamv3 said:
So, inanimate objects can "lift" Mjolnir, presumably since they're not alive so there's no issue of worthiness or not.

What if an inanimate object is given consciousness after it's already lifting Mjolnir? I have this mental image of Stark building an elevator that can be controlled by Jarvis. The elevator starts out with no AI loaded in its computer. It opens, and Thor drops the hammer into the elevator. So far so good. Then Stark uploads Jarvis into the elevator's computer. And the elevator suddenly falls inexorably to ground level, or the hammer falls through the elevator's floor.

And then Stark would probably then try to experiment with this, scientifically. Build a series of elevator platforms, one atop another. The top one has the full Jarvis AI suite loaded into it. The one at the bottom simply has a rudimentary "if-then" statement loaded into its memory, sort of like "if button is pressed, then go up". And in between, there are a series of elevator platforms with AI programs of increasing sophistication as you go up.

Thor drops the hammer on the top platform. Presumably it's too smart to hold the hammer, so the platform falls downwards. How far does it go down until it reaches a platform that's deemed "not alive" and thus can hold up the hammer?

... I really should be concentrating on my work instead.

Um... if you're trying to figure out if a machine with Jarvis' consciousness could wield the hammer of Thor, you might need to re-watch the movie...

PatrThom · May 3, 2015

GasBandit said:
Middle click to open in new tab, then immediately close new tab without switching to it.

Or just "mark forums read"

--Patrick

bhamv3 · May 3, 2015

evilmike said:
Um... if you're trying to figure out if a machine with Jarvis' consciousness could wield the hammer of Thor, you might need to re-watch the movie...

View attachment 18169

Vision is much more than just Jarvis loaded into a robot body though. For one thing, he's got that shiny thing in his forehead...

Ravenpoe · May 3, 2015

bhamv3 said:
So, inanimate objects can "lift" Mjolnir, presumably since they're not alive so there's no issue of worthiness or not.

What if an inanimate object is given consciousness after it's already lifting Mjolnir? I have this mental image of Stark building an elevator that can be controlled by Jarvis. The elevator starts out with no AI loaded in its computer. It opens, and Thor drops the hammer into the elevator. So far so good. Then Stark uploads Jarvis into the elevator's computer. And the elevator suddenly falls inexorably to ground level, or the hammer falls through the elevator's floor.

And then Stark would probably then try to experiment with this, scientifically. Build a series of elevator platforms, one atop another. The top one has the full Jarvis AI suite loaded into it. The one at the bottom simply has a rudimentary "if-then" statement loaded into its memory, sort of like "if button is pressed, then go up". And in between, there are a series of elevator platforms with AI programs of increasing sophistication as you go up.

Thor drops the hammer on the top platform. Presumably it's too smart to hold the hammer, so the platform falls downwards. How far does it go down until it reaches a platform that's deemed "not alive" and thus can hold up the hammer?

... I really should be concentrating on my work instead.

Clearly, they should have just uploaded a basic AI into all that machinery that was flying the city into the air, and then Thor could have just sat his hammer on top of it.

GasBandit · May 3, 2015

bhamv3 said:
So, inanimate objects can "lift" Mjolnir, presumably since they're not alive so there's no issue of worthiness or not.

What if an inanimate object is given consciousness after it's already lifting Mjolnir? I have this mental image of Stark building an elevator that can be controlled by Jarvis. The elevator starts out with no AI loaded in its computer. It opens, and Thor drops the hammer into the elevator. So far so good. Then Stark uploads Jarvis into the elevator's computer. And the elevator suddenly falls inexorably to ground level, or the hammer falls through the elevator's floor.

And then Stark would probably then try to experiment with this, scientifically. Build a series of elevator platforms, one atop another. The top one has the full Jarvis AI suite loaded into it. The one at the bottom simply has a rudimentary "if-then" statement loaded into its memory, sort of like "if button is pressed, then go up". And in between, there are a series of elevator platforms with AI programs of increasing sophistication as you go up.

Thor drops the hammer on the top platform. Presumably it's too smart to hold the hammer, so the platform falls downwards. How far does it go down until it reaches a platform that's deemed "not alive" and thus can hold up the hammer?

... I really should be concentrating on my work instead.

As I understand it, the implied rationale for why Vision can lift Mjolnir (assuming one rejects Thor's assertion he is "Worthy") is because he is artificial, and thus not actually capable of his own morality - he is constrained by his programming, albeit encoded into biotech hardware. Thus, an elevator would similarly be able to transport Mjolnir anywhere it would normally be capable of transporting a 40 pound hammer.

However, if the elevator were to descend, either under its own power or in freefall, and a conscious (unWorthy) being attempted to stop it, either Mjolnir would push through the floor and continue to fall, or if the floor is sturdy enough to hold the hammer and the being attempting to stop the elevator is not of sufficient strength to destroy the elevator with his efforts, he would be unable to stop or slow the elevator, given that Mjolnir's inertia is not allowed to be altered by such a person. IE, Iron Man would probably be unable to prevent the elevator's descent by pushing from below, but may perhaps bend the floor around it some, whereas the hulk, trying to pull the elevator cables from above, might break the cables, or tear the winch off the elevator car, or even tear the car itself in half as Mjolnir continues its descent as would an unpreturbed 40 lb hammer.

However, as we have seen earlier when Thor incapacitated Loki by simply knocking him on his back and resting Mjolnir on his chest, Mjolnir's unchecked delta V is still no more than one would expect from a 40 lb hammer - Mjolnir did not crush Loki's ribcage into paste, even if it didn't allow him to alter its velocity (or lack thereof, movement of earth notwithstanding) and get up.

Frank · May 4, 2015

I liked it more than Avengers, but it's still just ok in my books. Kind of wish Vibranium upgraded Ultron would have been more than just a swarm threat at the end. Did love that they took riddled with the neurosis of his creator bit from comic Pym created Ultron and just copy and pasted the idea with the Tony Stark version. There were too many characters to give enough screen time and fleshing out to everyone (Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Vision) but they did a fine job with the time allotted. Wasn't really a fan of how Vision was introduced (suddenly Thor!).

I'm gonna blame the quick killing off of Quicksilver on someone in charge reading Ultimates 3 and being like, fuck that, we need to kill someone, one of these two is dead right now.

Oh, and jacked Andy Serkis as who I assume is Ulysses Klaw might have been my favorite part of the movie. Andy Serkis is the unsung fucking hero of character acting. He better be back in the Black Panther flick.

Hailey Knight · May 4, 2015

I forgot about Andy Serkis. That was an unexpected appearance.

bhamv3 · May 4, 2015

I love how he says cuttlefish.

Dubyamn · May 4, 2015

It was an okay movie. A big bowl of vanilla pudding. Enjoyable but utterly utterly forgettable.

Ultron was a dumb villain. I'll start with the big failures and then go onto the bits that probably wouldn't be a problem if I had liked him better.

The biggest problem with him was that he never seemed like a big threat to the heroes. I mean every time he went up against the heroes he got kicked in the teeth without really threatening them. Iron Man beat him which is okay cause Iron Man is established as kind of the best of the Avengers able to take the fight against the Hulk the distance and even go a few rounds with Thor without either of them taking any real damage but to have him face off against the big bad without any kind of damage? Not a great way to present the big bad as a threat. Then he fights Captain America a fight which CA goes into saying that he knows he can't win but through out the entire fight CA seems to be giving better than he gets. It just added up to a really lackluster Villain that was talked up as a big threat and then was unable to inflict any damage on the heroes.

The second big problem was that his ultimate plan was DUMB with a capital D, U, M and B. I mean they establish that he was able to gain control of a huge portion of the industrial output of the entire world. Stealing all sorts of technology in order to build himself an army. He also stole an arbitrarily large amount of Vibranium which for lack of any better words is a magical element. So of course his master plan is to levitate a huge rock and then slam it back down into the earth. I mean I know it tied into his speech to the Black Widow about the purity of Meteors and all and it allowed Ultron to set himself up for a huge heroes vrs villain showdown but it seemed like an incredibly inefficient use of his incalculable resources and just a dumb plan overall. I mean the amount of power he used levitating the city up could have wiped out all life on the planet on it's own.

Also I hated James Spader as his voice which is disappointing because I love James Spader and I thought that his voice work in the trailer was perfect. Just the right amount of arrogance and menace you want in a villain. A balance he kept all of two minutes. The arrogance stayed throughout the movie but the menace just wasn't there ever again.

And finally the very petty complaint. I hated the fact that they gave Ultron lips and human mannerisms. The lips were ridiculous and they never even bothered to explain why he had them. They also just looked stupid. The human mannerisms made no sense. He wasn't based off of a human mind and they couldn't be unconscious movements so they are obviously an affectation by Ultron but why the hell would he do that? Why would his brow furrow in anger why would he bring his hand up to sooth a man who's arm he just tore off?

Course besides that I liked it. The action sequences were fun if a little mindless. The character interactions were great even if they couldn't get us to believe the Black Widow, Bruce Banner romance without having everybody and sundry talk about it trying to convince us it was totally a thing.

*Originally posted this in the unspoilered thread

Ravenpoe · May 4, 2015

Dubyamn said:
And finally the very petty complaint. I hated the fact that they gave Ultron lips and human mannerisms. The lips were ridiculous and they never even bothered to explain why he had them.

They actually did explain that... kinda. There's a brief moment where Tony Stark is trying to figure out Ultron's plan, and mentions that keeping his creations in a humanoid form doesn't make sense, that he's trying to emulate humanity... or somesuch. It's also slightly implied that his brain was based off of Tony Stark, what with his overpowering arrogance and the fact that he uses one of Tony's quotes with Andy Serkis, and then goes ballistic when he gets compared to Stark. This was probably better established somewhere in the hour of content that was cut.

Dubyamn · May 4, 2015

Ravenpoe said:
They actually did explain that... kinda. There's a brief moment where Tony Stark is trying to figure out Ultron's plan, and mentions that keeping his creations in a humanoid form doesn't make sense, that he's trying to emulate humanity... or somesuch. It's also slightly implied that his brain was based off of Tony Stark, what with his overpowering arrogance and the fact that he uses one of Tony's quotes with Andy Serkis, and then goes ballistic when he gets compared to Stark. This was probably better established somewhere in the hour of content that was cut.

I did catch that Stark said that he didn't know why Ultron was keeping the humanoid figure. I guess I just never combined that with the idea that he was seeking to emulate humanity just the writers acknowledging that for a great deal of tasks the human form isn't very efficient and that a variety of forms might have been better for fighting and what not. And yes the fact that Ultron was trying to emulate humanity probably is what was left on the cutting room floor but it does very little to justify how stupid the lips look or really save that part of the movie for me.